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      Dear Sir,

      I really don’t care whether you have a life or not.  That’s your problem not mine.  You did Mr Kiesz no service publishing his errrors on Mr Armstrong’s errors.  So what if, for example, Mr Armstrong got Melchisedec wrong.  Any true brethren would, by now, have worked this issue out.  Mr Armstrong raised many questions again and only missed the point by so much.  Ok missing the mark is sin. Mr Armstrong sinned - amazing!  You could have quoted Mr Kiesz selectively to reflect well on him and Mr Armstrong.


      Not point in telling you to get a life. Disgusted by this effort - truly the painful truth.

      Ian Shears


      Your in denial. Besides, this article I link to was published by

      Seeing how your in a pissy mood already, read this:


      (Editors note: I have the article here on the PT also.


      hey, I was looking for that particular scripture that u quoted about putting away childish things, and came across your post. Was just curious & wondering, how is it that that passage that Paul stated stood out to you & all of the other passages that he stated seems like a fable?
      I don't understand...generally, how ppl quote snippets of the Bible to believe & doubt the rest. I'm don't proclaim to be a bible scholar or nothing but, I just speak from personal experiences. I'm sure no one has never had an encounter with Santa, the tooth fairy, or unicorns but, I PROMISE people has had an encounter with Jesus. & for those who hasn't, would more than likely say what you've said & feel like you feel.
      I just don't think it's fair for many to wanna believe the Bible in part, get partial understanding, & then run with that partial information & form an opinion. Partial believers & full doubters...???



      So you had an encounter with Jesus?
      Is it this Jesus?

      You wrote:
      'hey, I was looking for that particular scripture that u quoted about putting away childish things, and came across your post.'

      With over 1500 pages do you expect me to know what you are talking about? What quote and where? Next time send a link.




      by u asking me that question, I think u found what I was talking about. & like I said, I was speaking from experience...enough said. I think that should answer ur question. but u haven't answered any of mine "is it the Jesus?" I don't understand what ur asking or the reason for that link




      that video u sent is in vain to me. it's like someone (who hasn't experienced child birth or being in labor) telling me what it's like to have a baby. Really? now would that make any since? I WAS THE ONE WHO EXPERIENCED IT SO HOW CAN U TELL ME ABOUT SOMETHING U HAVEN'T EXPERIENCED? (not shouting by the way)



      Your experience is all in your head. Like the guy who claims to have been abducted by aliens from outer space.




      How in the world can an experience be in someone's head??? smh...stop judging
        something u know not of. just bcuz u haven't been thru what someone else has, or "experienced" it...don't make it 2b a lie. "experience is all in your head" sounds very, very ignorant. that statement makes no sense. but I guess it's ur way of brushing off what I'm saying. & I have nothing to do with somebody's story of being abducted by aliens. I know nothing about that. But I'm speaking on what I KNOW...PERSONALLY. NEway, enjoy the rest of ur day



      You wrote: 'How in the world can an experience be in someone's head??? smh...stop judging'

      Temporal lobe epilepsy would explain your experience. Check out the term on the YouTube channel and learn. I've experienced it also so I can say with authority that this DOES lead to a religious experience.

      Now you say to 'stop judging'.
      Well I say that I can judge on the basis of experience. Without judging others motivations, experiences, and theories I would be the most ignorant of men. My intentions are to enlighten those who depend on the Painful Truth for truthful reporting and exploring the side of life that some find discomfort in.




      I understand what ur saying. but understand, you're speaking from what U HAVE experienced in life & when someone says to you what THEY'VE experienced, you say they're wrong! That's totally unfair. What makes u so right & me (and ppl like me) so wrong? U speak from what u know & if that's all u know, PERSONALLY, about God & Christianity, then so be it. But don't put others down.

      Ur not shedding as much light as u think u are. Remember I used giving birth as an example earlier. IF U HAVEN'T DONE THAT OR EXPERIENCE THAT PERSONALLY, WHAT CAN U TELL SOMEONE ABOUT IT WHO HAS? ABSOLUTLY NOTHING!

       Inspight of how u & others who think like u may think, everyday we wake up is a miracle within itself. a new day at life. we could've died in our sleep. Dr. don't wake us up & they shol can't control what takes place in our bodies. half of the times things go on in us & they have no clue of what it is or how it got there. Somebody cure cancer & other illnesses since if they believe God doesn't exist. And he doesn't have to move when others think he should just to make believers out of 'em. Jesus didn't do it in his time when Satan himself asked him, so what makes PEOPLE think they're gonna move him?

      Not trying to convince u but, STOP trying to convince me & others.



      You wrote: 'Not trying to convince u but, STOP trying to convince me & others.'

      Let me remind you that it was not I who contacted the Painful Truth to converse. It was you. Either you can accept what I said or choose to walk away from it. It is your choice and I personally don't care what you chose to believe. Its your life and you have the right to live it as you please. Freedom of conscious is fine with me and may I add that everyone is entitled to their opinion and choices. This is as life should be. We all live and die by our decisions.




      ur so right. and yes, I was even the one who replied to you all, first & we do chose to live our life in the way we see fit. but even in saying that, you all are still voicing your opinions & calling it "the truth".  ???
      & all I'm saying is, if someone choses Christianity & wants to believe in God (or whom ever they chose as their god) LET THEM...FREELY without someone chastising them for it & saying they have an epilepsy or whatever. Just as believers don't need to push Jesus in anyone's face, unbelievers don't need to push their doubt either.
      & if y'all weren't trying to get others on ur band-wagon, u wouldn't have gone thru all of that to put up a site to "enlighten" ppl on YOUR OPINION...oh, excuse me "the painful truth"



      You wrote: 'all I'm saying is, if someone choses Christianity & wants to believe in God (or whom ever they chose as their god) LET THEM...FREELY without someone chastising them for it & saying they have an epilepsy or whatever.'

      What I stated about temporal lobe epilepsy is factual. It causes religious mania.

      Now let me ask, are you or have you ever been part of the Armstrong churches of God?




      No. I've never heard of the Armstrong church of God



      Then why are you writing a website that deals with the cult of Armstrongism if you know nothing about it?




      WHY AM I DOING WHAT??? Writing a website??? Please tell me James, PT-Editor, what "website" am I "writing"?




      lol ur making up all kinds of ridiculous stuff...talking against Christianity & God. Armstrongism??? never heard of such a thing...EVER! & I don't care to even know what ur talking about; so don't bother explaining smh...we can end our convos from here on out. Getting more & more ridiculous. From epilepsy to Armstrongism. & NEway...

      why even bother worrying about NE religion...period...if ur just gonna doubt 'em. it shouldn't matter 2u one way or another who believes in what. THAT'S OUR PEROGATIVE...IJS. Have a good day James, PT-Editor...been interesting



      (Editors note: Why do they always deny being an armstrongist? If not an armstrongist, perhaps this individual has a problem with atheists?)



      Can I please receive information on who you are. I was a member of the world wide church of god

      Am presently with the united church of  god.

      I seek the truth no mater the pain

      Please respond

      Fred gotto


      Fred, why do you find a need to know who I am? What is your reasoning?




      I could care less who you are. Rather what do you stand for and what is the painfull truth.
      Let your light shine if there is one.


      A collection of Facts, Opinions and Comments from survivors of The Worldwide Church of God and its Daughters.



      Dear PT-Editor

      Extreme Religions are insidious and abuse children’s rights.

      I had the privilege of being invited to a wedding of late. Relations are great to have and sometimes a younger generation decides to tie the knot. I had no idea that the family was part of the Free Church.

      My girlfriend and long time partner and I took our places for the wedding process, and at first everything seemed to be normal. Till the music started. A mix of Gospel rock music song using “Jesus” in almost every single line of the lyrics. Most of the guests song along and following this the Preacher made his speech. In almost every sentence spoken “Jesus” was part of the ceremony. The wording is simple, the couple isn’t alone “Jesus” is always part of the relationship. There is no couple without “Jesus”, and nothing they do or experience isn’t being influenced by “J”. Jesus is there when the things go great, and there when not. He’s responsible for everything, makes you kind of wonder why things aren’t always great or wrong, since the couple has no control over their relationship. “Jesus” controls their whole life, and for better or worse he’s responsible for it all. He brought them together and will also make them suffer for whatever purpose he sees fit.

      The whole 45 min. of the ceremony went on right up to the end with “Jesus” in almost every sentence spoken. I could imagine their first night together and “J” is in bed with them. No privacy here!!!! The word “J” must have been mentioned over 100 times if not more. My girlfriend was grossed out at the thought of these two very young people being manipulated in this manner.

      There is a crowing to this, both fathers were asked to come forward and make the final prayer with the newly weds. The father of the Groom took his sons hand and basically told him that they where in the hands of “J” now with respect to their vows and there was no turning back. He did this with such authority and parental manipulation that I could imagine his son has never once said anything to contradict his fathers wished, thoughts or beliefs. It was literally a strangulation ceremony! Do it our way or you will pay dearly if you don’t.

      I’m a fan for freedom of choice and freedom of religion. I’m 100% non believer (atheist if you like), however I’m starting to think that future generations that are being influenced by this kind of fundamental nonsense is dangerous. Teaching children lies, and stifling their learning is bad, very bad. Parents that promote this way of life are obviously not really interested in helping their children to develop properly.

      What is even worse, children cannot defend themselves. Children cannot defend themselves!!!!!!! Richard Dawkins is right, it’s time to protect the children from this abuse of power. Growing up in this kind of environment is insidious, taking advantage of the weak and young to profit, control, and power. Alone the number of families that have suffered from abuse rituals and beliefs that defy common sense. It’s very hard to comprehend that what appears to be a harmless belief can be turned on its head in such a radical way. Forcing people to live together forever is an illusion and preaching this to young couples makes it even more difficult for them to build a relationship. There is no room for change in personality or just simply the need to move on should a relationship need to be ended.

      But let’s not get sidetracked here. Children cannot defend themselves!!!! That is the issue here.

      Religion has simply a to strong a hold on the rights to freedom of religious belief. Swinging a flag of freedom to do and abuse who they want without having to justify their actions. Hiding behind the right to believe and propagate lies without taking any responsibility. It’s their fundamental right, but I think that right has to be questioned and especially when it comes to CHILDREN. Who’s protecting future generations from falling into the same trap? Propagating concepts and ideas that aren’t realistic or truthful. It will be a long and difficult task to bring humanity to a level were this kind of abuse will cease, or a least be so reduced that it becomes almost non existent.

      The question will be how to change our societies imbedded belief that religion is untouchable. It’s the only institution that has been able to be above the law and propagate moral purity, yet an institution that has no scruples in lying to it’s members outright, and preaching moral high ground on the other hand.

      Again children cannot defend themselves!

      Again children cannot defend themselves!

      Who’s protecting future generations?



      Hi Ric,

      The painful truth of this is that religion will go on and on until the damage reaches a point that churches will have to be regulated. Out of control men need to be accountable for their actions.

      What your friends got themselves into they will have to extract themselves from. Until that time, they will remain in the slavery that keeps on taking.

      You wrote: 'I’m a fan for freedom of choice and freedom of religion.'

      So am I. Religion, like all personal choices, are decisions that one makes from conscious thought. We have the freedom to make choices that benefit or destroy us. Religion has the dubious distinction of destroying people and communities, nations and states, and perhaps someday the world. Of course there are exceptions to this honor. There are some people that live to serve humanity. They are few and far between but they do exist. Just don't look for them in the ACOG's.




      I was looking at your item on:

      Herbert Armstrong Caught in One More Major Error! Sunday Worship Proven Not to Originate In Paganism!"

      You said:

      "The pagan Romans paid no more regard to the Christian Sunday than to the Jewish Sabbath"

      I was wondering if the same thing could then be said "The Christians (Romans) paid no more regard to the Jewish Sabbath than the Roman Pagans did."?

      I have read a lot of History over the years...and let's forget Roman rituals, Roman Emperors, Roman Pagans and many other things - let's just put them aside.

      There is ONE QUESTION I fail to see addressed by this whole matter:

      ARE Christians being faithful to the 10 Commandments?

      The 10 Commandments is in the Old Testaments - The Old Testament (and Moses) is Jewish - Saturday is the Sabbath for the Jews.  And Since they are the "Keepers of the Faith" they must know what they are doing, because the Jews (and even Jesus was a Jew) were keeping the Sabbath Long before the Christians ever tried to - Thus how can Christians NOT be breaking one of the 10 Commandments?

      "Keeping the Sabbath" on a different day (Sunday) sound sacrilegious to me.  

       And as I said it doesn't matter what excuse you give it (Paganism, Jew hating or whatever) If you believe in the Old Testament to live by it -  then the Sabbath, under God's Law, must be Saturday... - am I correct?.  

      So can you explain to this Christian How is it Justified under our Christian Beliefs that it is on Sunday?

      Thanks and Respectfully,

      Chris Hazelwood


      Hi there Chris,

      The article is by someone other than myself.

      In answer to your questions:
      The texts that make up the bible are but dialogue between ancient traditions and different communities through the ages. In this time, the cultures, politics, economic conditions, etc, varied greatly which influenced societal views and customs.

      I do not believe the bible is inspired. Ask yourself where the book came from. Is it not a creation put together by the Catholics?

      On one Catholic website we read: The Jews put together the old testament and The Catholic Church put together the new testament and it took several centuries to do so. It was not until the Council of Carthage 397 years after Jesus death and subsequent approval by Pope Innocent I, that a New Testament was put together. Prior to that date, hundreds of gospels and “apostolic” writings were floating around in many different languages, some not so good or some even controverted. It was the Catholic Magisterium, guided by the Holy Spirit, which separated the good writings from the bad and selected the 27 books that are now found in the New Testament bible today.

      I hope this answer helps you with your questions.



       Subject: thank you for the website

      I appreciated your "A letter to Worldwide kids." Your letter detailed many of the things I experienced. But first a little background:

      My parents grew up in abusive homes and in the late 60s, my father joined the Navy to avoid the draft, and my mom joined the Navy to escape her hell hole. They met in the Navy, and my mom dated one other guy before picking my dad, and they married 6 months after they met. For some inexplicable reason, they thought WCG was a good idea and joined, and I was born in 1972. I stayed in it this church until 1991 when my mom said I didn't have to go anymore after my sister ran away to join the Army.

      First, I remember the crazy children's Bible books with the awful Wolverton illustrations.  I read stories about genocide, men kidnapping foreign women to be their wives (forced marriage or rape) , the poor concubine who was gang raped and left to die on her jackass owner's step, the part where the Israelites killed all the enemy women and only spared those "who hadn't known man." Also remember the story of the man who cursed God, and God opened up the earth and killed him and his family.  When I read that story, I thought  about his wife and his kids who didn't do anything, and God killed them. Lovely reading for kids!   As a child I always wondered why God would be jealous of other gods if they weren't real---I thought that was silly, that's like me being jealous of Jessica Rabbit.  I asked my parents why God killed all the babies and kids in the Great Flood and they said because there would be no one to take care of them.  I remember being told that everyone sins, even babies, because they  get rebellious thoughts. oh boy.

      I remember the battles over not being allowed to wear make-up--I ended up keeping it in my locker at school to put it on in the morning, but I always had traces left on which caused my mother to be very angry.  The best birthday gift I ever had was when Herbert passed away on my 14th birthday in 1986, and soon the rules changed and I could wear make-up.  Well it was just a great present that he finally passed away.....

      I couldn't go to dances because they were on Fridays or participate in a school play because one night it was on a Friday. I remember no TV from sunset Friday to Saturday. The Friday to Saturday thing made getting after school jobs tough.  I remember being isolated during school activities involving Halloween or Christmas--I was left in a classroom with a girl who was Jehovah's Witness.

      When I was 12, my mom said if I ever got pregnant, then I had to marry the father.  She never discussed what abortion was, and when a magazine article portrayed 3 different girls who got pregnant and each chose either keeping the baby, giving it up for adoption, or having an abortion, she asked me what I would do, and I said I would have an abortion.  This was the first time I heard of abortion and thought it was a great idea. Oh boy was she upset.

      When I was 15, there was a big regional YOU basketball weekend event, and there was a weird sermon about how women are "property of men."  Oh boy was I indignant--I had already started reading feminist literature I found in the high school library.  The minister said first your father owned you, and then your husband.  I just couldn't believe it. I was so angry.  I remember the sermons about men being head of their wives, and their making the final decision.  I asked my father what happens if the woman was smarter than the man?  I can't remember the answer. I remember a sermon about a minister saying it was ok to spank the wife for disobedience (this was not in a 50 Shades of Grey way). 

      When I was 15, I told my parents that I didn't want to go to church anymore, and my father got me into a weird wrestling hold on the floor. I twisted and hurt his ankle which he complained that I hurt him.  My mother said they were going to send me to a reform school because they couldn't "handle me."  I ended up crying and apologizing.  I remember them telling me that they would disown me for something, but I can't remember what exactly.

      I remember not being allowed to  date, and when I worked at McDonalds when I was 16, I dated an older man (20 years old--yes inappropriate, but he actually behaved himself), and my father overheard me on the phone talking to my bf, and my dad called me a "temptress."    I was pretty skinny and underdeveloped--I really don't think I qualified as a temptress.  Anyway, my parents made me quit McDonalds because of the boyfriend.  I ended up breaking up with him on my own but not because of them. 

      Mom was upset with me because I didn't want to go to Big Sandy College.  They didn't want to sent me to a real college because of the liberal ideas. I don't think they thought it was worth paying for a girl to go to college because she was just going to marry and breed.

      Mom told me "you don't put kids into daycare."  Dad refused to fill the FAFSA so I couldn't get school loans until I married my husband or turn 24.

      I tried to kill myself 2x with aspirin. the second time my mom caught me vomiting,and she made me go to a YOU basketball game that same day where I was a cheerleader (they made me sign up so I would socialize more--my attitude was so bad that the coach wouldn't allow me to come back next year), and I was ill all day.  Later that week my mom said she knew I was unhappy, but I had to go to church and live by their rules until I was 18.  My sister tried to kill herself at 17 with benedryl, and she did end up in the hospital. My mom said it was because my sister was getting her period.  My dad would complain that my sister never paid him back for the $3000 hospital bill that was incurred for her treatment.

      I did believe some the Church's nonsense, and I honestly thought I wasn't going to live past 14 because of the coming Tribulations (then Herbert  died and that helped), but thank god I found feminism and realized I didn't have to be uneducated and marry some idiot (which a lot of the men in my congregation were).  I met a nice Jewish man who is very loving and decidely not sociopathic or weird, and he supported my education, and I now have a master's degree and have a professional job.  I did not have children because of the fear of losing the man and having no support, and I did not want to be poor with kids.  I did not believe I would have any support from my parents--
      they said once I moved out of the home I couldn't come back (I didn't move out until 25 when I married my hub).  I am still married to my nice husband after 18 years.  I consider myself an athiest, and have real trouble even thinking about going to church. I don't even like religious aspects of weddings or funerals. My parents grew up in abusive homes and in the late 60s, my father joined the Navy to avoid the draft, and my mom joined the Navy to escape her hell hole.  They met in the Navy, and my mom dated one other guy before picking my dad, and they married 6 months after they met.  For some inexplicable reason, they thought WCG was a good idea and joined, and I was born in 1972.  I stayed in it this church until 1991 when my mom said I didn't have to go anymore after my sister ran away to join the Army. 



      Thanks for writing the Painful Truth.

      You wrote: 'My sister tried to kill herself at 17 with benedryl, and she did end up in the hospital... My dad would complain that my sister never paid him back for the $3000 hospital bill that was incurred for her treatment.'

      Wow! Such loving parents! Some people should never have kids. I guess you already know this. In their attempts to stifle you they created what all good conservatives hate. A feminist.

      'The best birthday gift I ever had was when Herbert passed away on my 14th birthday in 1986...'

      Indeed. A day worthy of celebration! And you were not the only one to feel this way either. In the Feb. 22-23, 1986 issue of The Weekend Australian, Phillip Adams' article "End of the World Here for Two - Thank God!" He wrote:

      'It must come as a great shock to both of them, but Herbert W. Armstrong and L. Ron Hubbard are dead. These god-like gurus, who dominated the lives of countless disciples, have carked it, snuffed it and kicked the bucket. And the world is a better place for their passing.'

      A fitting tribute to gods 20th Century apostle. The Elijah who was to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children. What Armstrong taught and the current crop of hirelings teach is religious pornography. Utter rubbish from the pulpit. If the truth be known, Herbert lacked courage, truthfulness, courtesy, honesty, diligence, chivalry, loyalty, and industry. He was a lazy swine who lived off the labor of others.

      It should be as obvious as the nose on your face that reading Armstrongism left to right and down a page is like following fingernails on a chalkboard. If we could define Armstrongism it would be by the shattered families, broken hearts and homes, depression and all its attendant miseries, and a despondency about those who continue to inaugurate their own era of hypocritical, lawless credentialism based on the teaching's of a dead false prophet.

      It is indeed unfortunate that there still is a demand for Armstrongism. Those who continue in Herbert's obsolete corporate model are redistributing the wealth of the membership to themselves. A undeserved reward for their loyalty to Armstrongism and all its trappings.



      I'd like to say thank you for your website. I was brought up in this "religion/church" from 1983 till I quit going at 22 and it was seriously screwed up, the people in my congregation although I have nothing against them as they have the same right to exist as everybody else but they were completely brain-dead. The hypocrisy was unbelievable, I am sure this man had no clue when it came to child rearing or family and why anyone would want this creep telling them how they should live their lives is beyond me. It's sad to see his "work" still continues in other churches. Who knows the extent of the abuse that still continues. They were spiritual thieves. My parents were next to useless although I love them I do not like them. The only thing I can remember growing up was out of all the people in the world I had to be one of unfortunate souls to grow up in this mental delusion. I am sure he was a racist (I have an african father and british mother). Once when attending a congregation whilst at university I was told that the church did not "breed wall flowers" this coment was aimed at me. I have a Masters in Mechnical Engineering and am not stupid. As far as I could tell the "ministers" in this "church" had degrees from some obscure bible college and degrees in philosophy. I really hope that your site reaches the people it needs to however I am sure their mu st be many people who don't have internet access and so will live in silence and continue to suffer abuse. However I thank you for the work you have done and are doing.I admire you for this. Even though I never new the man I have read enough about him and personal testimonies and seen many of his videos to know that he was a man who contributed nothing to the human race or en-devour for peace.

      I am not sure whether you believe in God or not. I believe there is a God as a can't see the purpose for human existence unless there is some kind of reward or happy future for us all but anyway.

      God Bless



      Thanks for writing Daniel.

      Let me just say that the churches of god are indeed a weapon of mass destruction. How else can one describe the massive damage to people all over the earth where the message of Armstrongism was received?

      If you were sane going into the church, you might come out a full blown alcoholic with a host of mental issues. A child growing up in these corrupt institutions, the damage will be for a lifetime. The sad part of this is that as time marches forward, these groups will continue to commit atrocities against mankind.

      From the perspective of us who were inside the coven of Armstrongism, HWA constituted the one who was to lead us to our great and shining future. Instead we were taken on a drunken wild ride with Herbie as the driver, impairing our lives with his debauchery, half-submerged logic that was contaminated by perverse inclinations most prefer not to acknowledge.

      One should not have to sit in church and listening to the vagarious kleptomaniacs whose intransigent yakety-yak week after week, give us an education that promotes mediocrity and normalcy as ideal virtues. They had zilch, nada to offer up as a moral example to be admired or honored, and lacked the vision and courage to lead the people as true leaders. Courage to them is to go down into the muddy trenches and create profound emotional distress for the people. And yes, those remaining in the flock are viewed as a magic purse that never runs out of gold.

      And this behavior continues to this day. The churches of god are run as a police state is run, with back-up-barkers, and enforcers. They create a class of victims by supplying the chains that bind the individual to notions of self-loathing and unworthiness, using their own propaganda as a secret decoder ring for the bible.

      The churches of god with all their treacheries are a handmaiden to tammanyism. They start out with 'good intentions' but end in corruption. What follows is tithe slavery, racism, and the systematic oppression, degradation, and exploitation for those who shackle themselves to ignorant men.

      In conclusion, I have no belief in a anthropomorphic deity. Let me just say that I am an atheist as to the bible, and a agnostic as to the existence of a God. I just don't know if there is a higher power and consider that the most honest answer one could ever give.

      The bible is as all the “holy books” ever written are. Just the primitive legends of men long dead. A God who concerns himself with the fate and the doings of mankind is not a possibility as the last century has showed us. My view is that if there is a God, then this God would have to be vastly superior and above anything that man could ever conceive.

      All of earth came from the universe. We are but a chemical, carbon based life form type of energy. The first law of thermodynamics states that energy can't be created or destroyed. It can only change forms. Your mind therefor transcends space and time.


      Daniel and others may find this article by our very own Ralph Haulk of interest. Greatest Evidence FOR God.


      After 38 years I am slowly with the help of this site instil some genuine doubt in my daughter who because of her mother was brainwashed from age 4 on! Your current posting of Quantum videos shows this mechanism. My daughter talks to me daily now. My son never took to the bullshit from day one , so he is doing fine, owns a house, got a nice girl, balance in life. My daughter  can't form a relationship with WCOG guys cause god never seems to get the right one James. No house, only church friends. Gawd damn James it is a curse of mankind. Fear not I will never give up on my daughter, in my fight to free her mind!



      Thanks for writing Bob.

      I would suggest you have a talk about morals with your daughter. Ask her what she would do if her husband started screwing her daughter like HWA did to his daughter. Don't be surprised if she passes this off as a simple sin.

      Those who hang their hat in a COG often lack moral integrity. They write off the sins of their precious apostle as a 'mistake'. They fail to make the connection that people who rape innocent children are criminals. See what she says. But I warn you that you may not like the answer!



      Man, after all those "rules" about sending you an email- I almost didn't.  Anyway, I got a lot out of your efforts. You went thru a lot, not half of what I have been thru, but I wouldn't wish your experiences on my worst enemy. But, like I said , I got a lot out of your work and words. I agree with some of it, because it is true, and disagree with your conclusion. But, that in no way discredits the work, mentally , etc. that you put in to get to your conclusion.

      Thanx for the effort.

      Aloha from Hawaii, J.


      Thanks J. Everyone comes to their own conclusion. We don't ask you to agree. We ask that you begin to think.

      Such is life!

      If you have a story to share feel free to send it along.



      actually having looked for the truth for most of my life {i'm 77 now} everything you state is true but something that does make sense is sumeria {myths ??? } about enki and enlil !
      hope you will look into it and get back to me !
       i am not an athiest yet but have so many doubts about life !!!




      Try this site for some understanding:

      There are a lot of gods and myths that go with each entity.
      In the end game none of it matters. You cannot prove or disprove that the myths have a sprinkle of fact or some truth to them. It was another time and there are no witnesses to fill us in on their
      version of the time. It may be fun to hash these over as a topic of conversation, but in the end that's all it is. Conversation.

      As to your doubts, don't think you will have an answer for everything before you die. It is better to live life unconcerned about those things you cannot understand or change. Enjoy life and live for today, for tomorrow we die.



      Is the email still working?   I just read articles about the WWCG and the Armstrongs.  I had listened to them years ago and was shocked by what had gone on behind the scenes.  I prefer to remain anonymous, but would like to know if there is more information out there.  And if so, where can I find it.

      Thank you!


      Here is the directory.




      Thanks for sending me this information.  It was a real eye-opener.  I think I got out earlier than most. One day I received in the mail a card.  It looked like a baseball card.  GTA was on the card.  I began to realize how pompous this guy was.  A card is okay for a baseball or football player.  But a minister???

      Then I went to some of their services.  One of the services they told us that we had to eliminate all the bread crumbs etc from our house because they were leavened.  Really???  I am going to burn in hell if I do not do that???  I think that sent me over the top.  I had enough.

      I did send them money.  But it was only for a few years.  So, I caught on to their tricks earlier than most.  Most of what you sent to me I did not know. But it is quite obvious what was going on.  GTA had the silver tongue.  He deceived many.  I think he even deceived himself.  He believed his own stories.  I am glad I saw through it.  I feel bad for those that got hurt.  I hope most have now recovered and are living productive lives.

      Thanks for what you do.  I am sure many have painted you as the enemy.  But, in fact, I am sure you are the hero for many, exposing the WWCG gang for what they were/are.   Thanks and have a great day!!!


      Thanks for writing my friend. The encouragement is appreciated!



      I think what you are failing to understand is that people who are truly Saved do not go to church to be 'led by the nose'.
      We have an individual relationship with God.
      We go for the fellowship and spiritual food.

      We find a church that is doing good works in the community and the world to give our money to. We have Free Will. 

      True, there are a lot of churches that are cult-ish and teach false doctrine. These are the ones to steer clear of. We were warned about them in a book written over 2,000 years ago. 

      I pray that someday you will experience True Freedom. 

      I'm sorry that you are so misled that you are compelled to mislead others. 



      Boy did you get this one wrong! You have no idea what this website is about!

      You wrote "I think what you are failing to understand is that people who are truly Saved do not go to church to be 'led by the nose'."

      We don't lead people by the nose. The Painful Truth is not a religious organization. Our purpose is in exposing corruption and warn those who are ignorant of the history of Armstrongism. We serve the general purpose of a watchman to those who might get involved with these related cults.

      Yes you and I have free will. I am not opposed to free will in any matter. I encourage it for all that are capable of thinking for themselves! However there is a lack of understanding on how to exercise free will within these cults. We teach those who have not the understanding nor courage to exercise free will.

      "I pray that someday you will experience True Freedom. I'm sorry that you are so misled that you are compelled to mislead others."

      Well you go and pray your little heart out and while your at it pray that God will heal the amputees who return to this country from war.

      And before you click on the send button next time, try reading the site for several hours. It will save you the embarrassment of having another letter posted to our mail bag page!



      The year was 1977.My father's second had expressed to my dad that she would like to visit her son Robert in Waco Texas and her cousin Irene who lived with her daughter Natalie and her husband Stanley Rader at their estate in Beverly Hills,California.My father wanted to visit with me.I lived in Los Angeles,California.


      So they drove cross country to visit the three of us.

      When they arrived in Los Angeles they asked me if I could drive them to see Irene and Natalie and Stanley.So off we went to 680 Loma Vista Drive in Beverly Hills.I had never seen nor have I ever been in such a large home before in my life.10 bedrooms,13 bathrooms,5 car garage and 8 car motor court.Natalie and her husband Stanley weren't home at the time but Stanley's Rolls Royce and Ferrrari were in the garage.Irene said her daughter Natalie and her husband Stanley were in Europe at the time.Irene owned a 9 unit apartment house in West Los Angeles but lived in a 2000 square foot guesthouse on Stanley Raders estate.

      The main residence was 10.000 square feet.Irene told us what Stanley Raders business was.Naturally I didn't divulge to Irene that even though I was brought Jewish,I was an atheist most of my life.Irene,Natalie and Stanley were born into the Jewish faith but I think after meeting and joining the World Church of God, Stanley Rader became a Christian(?).I remember Irene telling us Stanley Rader had a 5 year contract with the church at $200,000.00 a year.Quite impressive.

      He soon sold this house and moved to 360  Waverly Place in Pasadena.I visited that home as well where I met Natalie but still never met Stanley.Stanley grew up in White Plains New York and I at the age of 25 moved from the Bronx to Mamaroneck,New York.Stanley Rader died at age 71 and I once visited his grave in Altadena.Richard Feynman is buried in the same cemetery.Richard Feynman also an atheist was a Nobel prize winner in Physics and taught at Cal Tech in San Marino,California.




      Thank you David for that bit of information. Radar was indeed in it for the money. In my opinion he was par-excellence as a manipulator. Old Herbie hired him to protect his wealth which was the church and all those blue ribbon tithe payers. Radar grew in wealth because of his relationship with the old goat. Makes you wish that there really is a hell!



      Shalom, I can feel your pain and sorrow. the betrayal is the worse experience of all,
      I also lived with a mean hypocrite while in world wide , and like you took the brunt of it from the ministers. The tither I believe now are the protected ones. After all that is what makes the church go around.
      The reason I am responding is to encourage you to forgive, and be grateful our GOOD YAH, will work all this mess for your GOOD.

      This only comes about when we release our tormenters into His hands.
      It is HIS pleasure to restore the years the locust, the palmer worm, and 
      caterpillar have eaten away. 

      Yahoshua MESSIAH set women free, AND AS I LIKE TO REMIND MINISTERS

      A WOMAN GAVE the fist sermon after the resurrection and the 12 disciples were greatly up braided for not believing her.

      Remember it is by great tribulation we are able to enter His Kingdom. No exceptions.

      All the Best ,Just give the past to the mender of broken hearts.



      Christine, you wrote:

      "The reason I am responding is to encourage you to forgive, and be grateful our GOOD YAH, will work all this mess for your GOOD."

      I will never forgive or forget. And your god didn't do shit to protect his children so why should I trust in him? What kind of father is he who allows his family to suffer needlessly?

      "It is HIS pleasure to restore the years the locust, the palmer worm, and caterpillar have eaten away."

      I am still waiting and still working. Where are the restored years?

      You may have figured by now that I don't buy into religious bullshit. It is nothing but lying words like the utopia that narcotics offer the drug addict. Feels very good just before it destroys you, turning you into a slave and deviant.



      Winter '64. After hearing HWA radio broadcast & then getting the p.t. for sometime...a home visit by MR.'s Reedy & McCrady....we continued.  My mother and us 5 kids....fleeing from an etetnal ly unhappy oppressively abusive home life at the hands of our dad. So...I was 7, maybe 8.......and introduced to some local brethren who would pick us up before sunup on Saturday....and another woman/5 of 4 adults, 11 small kids...1 1/2hours one way to grand rapids for 2 hour church service. Wow. The people who picked us up were always cordial and nice. To a point. And...of course..we would just be so tired and hungry and cranky for the long ride back home after services. My dear mother never had 2 cents in her pocket. When you married to a gm plant rat/alcoholic...we fortunate to even be alive...really.we were excess see us leave and stay gone all day was alright with him.that long hungry ride home...I remember once we stopped at a burger stand. Mrs. Roberts owned the sedan. Her son George was the driver. His son Rickey was about my age..7 or 8. and wanted for nothing. She bought a round of burgers. How nice. While Rickey enjoyed fries and a drink with his burger.....we got to watch him relish the fries and drink. He made sure we saw his every move with the French fries.


      Your dad was an alcoholic, your mother a blind follower of men. When one is dedicated in following men instead of logic, that is the price you and many others had to pay. Even if it wasn't your fault. My hope is that the information age might limited the damage that the ACOG's are capable of doing.

      You dad was another fluke in your life. Just how do we cope with the decisions our parents made? We can forgive but we never forget. Never.

      I hope you are doing well in your adult life. It is happiness and contentment that we all seek after a really dismal childhood spent in a mind control, money grubbing religious cult, by people who don't give a shit about any of us.



      In reply to David Froloff:

      David, I rarely visit this site anymore, so I didn’t see your letter of July 2013 until a few days ago.

      I’m a little confused. In your letter you referenced an article I wrote in 2008, “Death Sentence”, but I’m not quite sure of your point. You did say that your children grew up, escaped the cult, and are doing well. Then you discussed your own religious beliefs. I can only assume that you somehow took exception to my article because your daughters turned out okay. Is that correct?

      Well, clearly I’m happy to hear this. My own children are also doing well and have no religious affiliations whatsoever. That’s because I finally woke up and pulled my family out of the cult before they were old enough to suffer too much damage. But I’m afraid you missed the point of the article, which was written after WCG as we knew it was already history. My concern (clearly stated in the article) is for those children currently living in the splinter cults, which are many. I was thinking of children living under Flurry, Meredith, Billingsley, Weinland, Pack, or any of the other scattered religious dictators who still inject their particular brand of Armstrong poison into their followers. The reference to your daughters is therefore irrelevant.

      You said you personally never believed “half the crap” the WCG set forth. Good for you. I wish I had never believed it. Obviously you were never a “true believer”. You never stated when you joined the WCG, how old you were when you joined, or how long you were in. If you joined as an adult, and never believed half of it, the only thing I can ask is…why did you join in the first place? I was brainwashed from age 4, so I never had a choice. My mother was the smartest person I knew, and she said she had proved it was true…so who was I, at age 4, 13, 17, or 21 to question anything? By the time I was an adult I had been battered into submission for years, so questioning the “truth” was unthinkable. I was held captive for literally 40 years, and I might still be there if Tcrotch had not started changing doctrines that HWA had assured us were straight from God’s mouth. (I have spent many years kicking myself for not waking up sooner, but all I can say is that the programming was very powerful and I was never a rebellious person. Any trace of independent thought that I might have had was beaten out of me at a very early age.)

      Enough said. I’m glad to hear that you and your family are doing well. But you might want to question the source of your belief…the Bible is filled with error and self-contradiction. You can find a number of books at Amazon that will demonstrate this, if your mind is open to the evidence.

      Good luck to you.

      John Bowers

      07/26/2014  (The following is a exchange I had with this person over a period of several days. His attempt to psychoanalyze me is not appreciated.)

      Whew!  I enjoyed your material.  And, I would like to communicate, as I agree with much, if not most.  But, I spent an hour or more, and could not get through.  So, am trying again.  I am not "anti" by any means.


      Greeting's back to you,
      Just discovered the site did you?



      Didn't know I was supposed to be searching?  Until the editorial in TJ.  And, yes, it did take some time.  Is there going to be any value in my having done so?  While I can agree with you on the "past", I still do not know anything you think about the future.  Except if it is to be of The Almighty, it is not going to be through "them".  And, when I say "them", I mean those under the "sign" of the Sabbath.
      Thanks for responding back.  Care to continue might be good.  I have a feeling you know more of me, than I know of you.  And, I made myself known.  And, they could give a....!


      Well Ray,

      Tell me  something about your journey on this earth. What are you seeking?
      Answers? Salvation, the 'true church'?



      I agree with you that the "churches" are not the True Church.  Though I believe there is one.  One here, one there, and basically if there are any assemblies that could be called the True Church.
      However, we do disagree on whether Scripture is inspired or not.  I believe it is, but I do not understand it the way that the COG's do.  I believe in the Father, and his Son.  But, I also find there being a third individual, that being the Son of Man.  And, no, this is nothing to do with Mat. 28:19.  Which I beleive deals with three separate baptisms.  Of course, total immersion, and the baptism of the Holy Spirit.  But, I find that there is a second water baptism.  That being the "washing of the feet".  If one looks up the word, it also means to "immerse in water".
      Well, I do not want to preach a sermon.  I simply would like to examine various topics.  My main studies lie in the area of prophecies.  Which understandings I have of the future, are little like what WCG and its splits continue to teach.
      Based on your thoughts, I take it you do not observe the feasts any longer.  Or in tithing, commanded Assemblies, and submission to an ordained priesthood/ministry.  As to the ministries.  According to the law of Moses, which they claim is still in effect, the priesthood at no time or manner, was ever given the right to rule the congregation.  They had two duties, neither of them allowing rule.  They were to "teach", and to do the services of the temples.  That's it.  Their livlihood was "freewill offerings".  And the first of the firstfruits and first male animals.  Which they used for food, milk and I guess most everything else.  They were never paid a wage of salary. 
      Will stop here.  Take care, and thanks for the response.


      Hi again,

      I no longer believe in the bible or in Jesus or his father. I am spiritual, that is I believe there is something more to this universe than random chance. Something bigger than any man made god.

      As to churches and your own set of beliefs try reading this:

      You don't need a true church. It does not exist. Your own personal beliefs and actions that express that belief is what matters. Otherwise your own values, that is the expression of your entire makeup. It is you and not a set of rituals.



      I am not necessarily disagreeing with you so much, as I am a bit wondering on your decisions.  Essentially, you do not believe in the Bible at all?  You do not believe in the Father at all?  You do not believe in the Son at all?  That is your right to do so?  At the same time, WHAT WAS IT THAT MADE YOU SPIRITUAL?  Which you do believe in?  You do not believe in "the great explosion".  Thus, you do not believe in life coming from nothing.  You rightly say though, that  the univers is "Something bigger than any man made god".  Meaning?  You do not believe there is anything Spiritual than yourself?  Now, you just discounted evolution.  How did "it" and how did "we" come to be?  You are saying, that if you are spiritual, than you had to be made that way.  By whom?  If you are "spiritual", was your father and mother.  Other family members?  Adam and Eve?  Though, you must not believe in an Adam and Eve beginning of our present human life?
      Yes, it is "you and not a set of rituals".  Or, to put it plainly, it is not "Moses law"!  However, the way you word it, it is "you and nobody else".  Won't you be a bit lonely in the future?  You don't believe the Bible, so you have to dismiss all of the words that pertain to those who are of "faith".  Doing that, you say then, that faith is not necessary.  For it is you alone.  All by yourself.  The only one who is "spiritual".
      Hey, friend.  I get discouraged.  But, I can not see your logic?  If there is only you, than there is nothing but you.  And, how can you be spirit, if you can be seen as a physical being?  Hard to grasp.


      BTW, I do not have to read your HWA pass on.  I quit worshipping HWA at least three decades ago.


      Greetings again,
      I want to mention to you, that prior to your contacting me, I had written a letter to the editor (Dixon), regarding your ad.  As you know, I already know what you think and feel.  But, I want you to know that, I point out a couple of things in the letter that I would have adjusted.  But, since it is my thought to let others weigh truth or falsity, then I will encourage Dixon to print it.  For others benefits.  Please to not be offended.
      Ray  (This guy seems to be confused. He has me mixed up with someone else. I never ran an ad in the Journal, nor would I. He appears to be just another babbling armstrongist.)


      Greetings this evening,
      It is comfortable temps, and the birds and the wife have gone to bed.  Thought I'd visit a bit.
      Might I ask a question?   ???  Ok, I will.  I have spoken to you in the past.  First when you were confused, and then, when you began your present belief system.  Would you please answer to what it was that bought you to this state in your life?  Now, we have been freed from the control of WCG.  We have been freed from many slaveries.  If we have chosen to be freed.  Oftentimes, the "rulers" have so deceived their "subjects", that they are afraid of "freedom".  Are you afraid of freedom?
      Yes, I know what you say.  "You are spiritual".  But, you seem to make it out that you are alone in the universe!  Hey, you'd be surprised how many think they are alone?  Can I ask what it is that has brought about the present thought mindset that you have?  Not judging you.  Just curious.  And, CARING.  WE are physical human beings.  You and myself.  IS THAT ALL WE ARE SEARCHING FOR?  Seriously.  We cannot be spiritual in a good enough sense.  When we die, what do we take with us?  All of the crap we see around us?  The self righteousness of the non righteous?  The evils that fill our news medias? You do not believe as the COG's.  I do not believe as the COG's.
      But, I do not believe as you do. And, I care about you.  Do you give a crap whether I do or not?  Do you wish to have "empathy" with anything?  Others?  Do you care enough about yourself, to know that I care about you?
      Hey, peanuts are good.  But the shell must first be broken.  Not by me, but by yourself.  Hope I haven't offended you.



      First of all you don't know how I feel. I gave you a general description of how I view the world and the universe. Spiritual thoughts have nothing to do with religion. They are just that, spiritual. To say as a agnostic "I don't know" is as honest of a answer that I can give. And frankly, it is a meaningless answer also. It doesn't matter if a god exists and I really could careless. I don't subscribe to the cowards version that 'we must believe in God' nor will I participate in a 'Faustian argument' with ilk of your type.

      You wrote: "But, I want you to know that, I point out a couple of things in the letter that I would have adjusted.  But, since it is my thought to let others weigh truth or falsity, then I will encourage Dixon to print it.  For others benefits.  Please to not be offended"

      Dixon does not have the license to print anything I write you. This is a private conversation, as I am NOT a public figure. You agreed to the website terms when you wrote me. I in return can publish your letter forever. Dixon does not have my permission nor would I ever give it to him or those of his ilk.

      You wrote in an earlier email: "I have spoken to you in the past.  First when you were confused, and then, when you began your present belief system.  Would you please answer to what it was that bought you to this state in your
      life?  Now, we have been freed from the control of WCG.  We have been freed from many slaveries.  If we have chosen to be freed.  Oftentimes, the "rulers" have so deceived their "subjects", that
      they are afraid of "freedom".  Are you afraid of freedom?"

      Sorry friend, I was never confused. You wrote me the first time a few days ago and I gave you answers to benefit yourself. As to you saying you haven't followed HWA for a couple of decades I will call you on that. Personally I think your full of shit. The article in the Journal was most telling.

      Your attempting to interview/profiling me, for whatever purpose, to call on me for the purpose of 'exposing' a former member as confused and/or lacking direction is devious. Do you think you are the first to think himself "so" clever?

      One thing you may have noticed about The Painful Truth compared to all those Armstrong church websites is 'we allow others of different opinions to publish their views' without censor. Even one of our writers is a strong Christian. A real Christian, not the Armstrong type. He is a man of integrity unlike some others who write me.




      Sorry for taking your time and bothering you.



      You have put it on your own heads to persecute and judge HW Armstrong, in front of the whole world.  Let this be on your heads to answer on the Day  of The Lord.

      You have obviously taken his work, teachings, and put your name on it, and tossed this man into the furnace.  I used to receive the pamphlets put out by WWCG, until the pagan teachings came back into the congregation, after HWArmstrong was gone, in the late 80's.

      What have you all done.


      Hi Karen,

      You wrote: "You have obviously taken his work, teachings, and put your name on it, and tossed this man into the furnace."

      So you are saying I have stoled his teachings? What do I teach that was HWA's?



      I am a christian who was diagnosed wit mpd disorder as a babe in christ. I deal with most of it in prayer but there  are many nights where the voice's in my head are so bad I  cant sleep and have to take pills to knock myself out, I need help to overcome because I love the Lord Jesus with my whole heart and want to walk with pleasing to His will, can you help me. please, ty.


      Sorry Rebecca Anderson, you need a shrink to get you on the meds.


      (Editors note: mpd is multiple personality disorder. I believe this letter is a hoax, as we get those from time to time.) Email traced to author.


      Thought you may be interested in looking at this website here; if Sunday isn't an issue, you may consider that christmas is a huge issue.


      Neither Sunday nor Christmas are an issue. The Christian religion is in itself a pagan invention.



      I understand your view of it; if I didn't, I wouldn't of sent you the information to look at. It's your choice to look at it or not, it's your salvation.


      There is no such thing as salvation. Sin and the need for salvation
      is a gimmick of the priest. It is the power of the priest.

      Whatever God is (not the ones that wrote books) he/she/it is so
      much more awesome and so much bigger than all these gods that have
      human traits like jealousy, hate, anger, etc..... made up by men to
      enslave and control tribes then nations.



      hello , i was a PK in the WCG . My father Lyle Simons was "called " in 1966 in Squaw Valley . we were in Prince George BC ,where my dad had the entire northern half of the province as his territory. Your website blows my mind, not a day goes by when i dont have a creepy memory of childhood . reading these quotes with my mouth hanging open brought a flood of memories that ive blocked out.  I never researched any of this till days ago and im 55. Why wont this stuff leave me?  i just sent a huge hateful hurtful tirade of accusations against my father a few days ago , before seeing this. As a ministers kid I believe i was subjected to a turbo- charged version of all of this insanity till I discovered alcohol at 16 and lighting didnt strike me. drugs came at 17. I went to 11 schools to complete 12 yrs of school , because of being moved around. I was the only short haired kid in several high schools and subjected to extreme bullying because of my fear of what God  would do to me if i did t turn the other cheek. I was the weird preachers kid with short hair , hemmed up pants , weird lunches and constant absences for holy days. i constantly thought about suicide as a retaliation against my parents so they'd feel guilty if i died.
      They beat the shit out of me with a wooden paddle till i was about 15. Virtually daily because everything i did was wrong.  I hated and feared my parents but was forced to call them sir and ma'am. I got kicked out of AC in 78 for a drunken night where i pissed in the pool ( from the edge in broad daylight) next to an AC dorm and was reported doing donuts on the dichondria on Orange Grove Blvd in my 67 Malibu. I had Jack Meoff paged in the cafeteria with 1200 faculty members and members in attendance, hehe. My dad nearly choked on his mashed potatoes! the church kids hated and resented me because of the pedestal they put me on and my school mates jeered me and ostracized for all the above. I had no friends till i was 18 , rebelled , moved out and pursued drugs and partying as a passion. When i grew my hair long and pierced an ear and started dealing i was finally a "cool " dude , it was my savior , drugs were my best friend. Made me forget how i felt. Im still the black sheep of the family , guilt and shame ruled my life for years. I still feel awful at christmas easter halloween and birthdays. My dad wished me a happy birthday this june 9th and it just set me off for some reason , i told him to stick it up his ass and i went on a tirade of name calling and accusations . I did some research and just found out things I never knew about HWA and his kid. I went thru measles whooping cough mumps as a kid in grade two , no shots. I was forced to play the accordion till about 16 , the nerdiest instrument known to man , was i the cool kid or what?!  I remember our new ministers assistant Chuck Ranchie was forced to sell his Harley and his Beatles collection. If i dont stop now , this will end up being a novel , im tired of these memories. Ive been sober for 14 yrs but i started smoking weed again because it really helps me sleep and laugh. ive been in Mexico for 17 yrs , havent seen my sisters in yrs .  im currently in the Philipines checking it out for retirement , distance helps me distance, if you know what i mean. i feel extemely fortunate i havent lost my marbles or ended up in jail or dead or homicidal or suicidal. Although i tried to kill myself by drugs for,years , i was using intravenously for a time in my twenties. I just didnt give a shit. My dad has answered my tirade with some sidestepping rhetorical bullshit justifying how they were just trying to do the best for us.He has yet to tell the real reasons he left the church in 97. He doesnt attend any church at all now. He still thinks the demons built the pyramids.  feel free to print any of this and publish my email.

      Sincerely Trent Simons


      Hi Trent,

      Wow, another horror story from the church of the fucking Elijah. You know the one, who said he was sent to join the hearts of the fathers to their children? What bullshit that was! ...and it continues to go on today in all Herbie's spit-offs.

      You were wondering why these memories and thoughts don't go away. The answer is because of the damage it did to you as a kid. Its the same with any psychological event that deeply impresses on the mind. Except in this case it was your father vomiting out that crap from the pulpit onto you.

      Speaking of your father, you wrote: "He has yet to tell the real reasons he left the church in 97."

      You father has no backbone and stands for nothing if this is his approach towards you. Most I speak with have apologized to their families and friends. I was one who did the same. Why? Because we loved our own more then we loved ourselves and were humbled by admitting our human vulnerabilities. This was the beginning of our healing.

      The letter you wrote to the Painful Truth is the beginning for you. Don't grow depressed but resolve in your own mind to repair yourself and live as a better man than that of your own father.

      "... i started smoking weed again because it really helps me sleep and laugh"

      Weed is medicine. I also find it therapeutic for a host of ailments. Any fool who denounces it knows nothing of the history of marijuana or why laws were REALLY put into place making it illegal.

      Keep reading the Painful Truth and put it all together. After a short time you begin to see what some men will do for personal enrichment and power. Its the same with all men, whether in religion or politics. A man is know by his character and who he associates with is very telling. Who willfully associates with child molesters?

      Best to you,



      The following is a response by editor Byker Bob... 07/05/2014

      Trent, your experiences differ from mine by degree, but what you shared is amazingly like my own experiences as a PK, as an AC student, and as a survivor.  I did not know your Dad, but Chuck Ranchie was a student while I was at AC.  At that time, Chuck seemed to be into old Mercuries, which I believe you guys up north called Monarchs.  If he ended up being a ministerial assistant, it is a given that he would have had to suppress his vehicular and musical tastes to make it that far.

      In a lot of cases, there cannot be healing between WCG parents, and their children.  The damage just ran way too deep.  It is unfortunate, but probably the best course is to avoid one another, and not let others make you feel guilty about that.  At least that way we are not hurting them, and they are not hurting us.  I keep my identity on these sites secret, although some have figured it out.  But, I do this because my parents and some of my relatives are still part of the Armstrong movement, and I don't want their peers at church to think less of them, or to hassle them over the stuff I write. 

      I opted for therapy back in the early '80s.  I had left in 1975, and spent the next 7 years partying, but knew there were some things that I needed to deal with in order to finally put the bad behind me, and to move forward, hopefully taking things to the next level.  Therapy or counseling can help, but they will not do a 100% job.  At some point, the rest is up to us.  When people ask me about therapy, I recommend that they find a therapist whom they trust, and select a type of therapy which feels comfortable.  And, the old adage is true:  If at first you don't succeed, try try again.

      It's not unusual for people who have been through what we endured to medicate themselves.  Some end up with long term addictions, while for others, consumption subsides with time.  Basically, people need to see their own patterns objectively, and to get help if they need it.  Sounds like you've already done a good job in that area, so my comment is for any other people who happen to be tuned in. 

      There are a lot of other people who have had bad occurrences or influences in their lives.  The more we get to know others, the more we realize how much suffering is going on out there.  The kids who grew up as Jehovah's Witnesses or Hari Krishnas certainly have stories to tell.  I hate it when people accuse us of being bitter, and tell us to get over it.  But, the truth is, it really is better if somehow we can actually do this, not because some ACOG asshole is looking down on us, kicking us in the ribs, and telling us that that's what we need to do, but because we ourselves want to cut loose from something weighing us down, and we decide to get over the badness for our own reasons, and on our own terms.  Again, a cliche is appropriate:  Living well is the best revenge.

      Stay tuned.  We've got awesome, helpful resources right here at the PT website!


      I was raised Catholic in Ireland (Born 1981), like you I no longer believe in Religion.
      I was reading your site and although I am in agreement with your beliefs,
      I am in disagreement with how you specifically target Christians rather than being more general regarding all religions.
      The reason I say this is upon reading the first page of the website, it is easy to class you as prejudice toward Christian in general by the tone and language you use, which I am sure is not what you intend.
      You intention I believe to help free them from the shackles imposed on them by religion.
      Not to insult there religion or them.
      on a side note....
      I lived in Dublin most of my life and Ireland although prominently Catholic/Christian is a not an extremist society.
      Religious/Non Religious tolerance is though in school by the state.
      I have now lived in Dubai for almost 5 years, I can safely say that although all religion is bogus man fiction.
      The indigenous populations in the Middle East have been bound by religion far worse than anything I grew up with.
      Currently I am in a pickle.
      Do I have my child baptized or not? I don't believe in it myself anymore.
      But as you mention the shackles are hard to leave behind because they are ingrained in your personality from a very young age.
      My wife feels the same.
      We have made to the decision to have our child baptized but I will not encourage him in the Church or speak of god or anything else until I have educated him in the sciences, rationalism etc.
      I will do my best to not have his mind, fears or emotion shackled like my were (and still struggle with) as a child.
      Hopefully he can make his own mind up by the time he is 15, and hopefully the cycle will not continue to his children.
      Perhaps he won't have his children baptized at all, who knows.
      You can post my comments but keep my email address private please.



      Hi Glenn,

      You wrote:

      "I am in disagreement with how you specifically target Christians rather than being more general regarding all religions."

      Actually, we have some Christians on board here at the Painful Truth, so no, it is not Christians we target but those who call themselves Christians wrongly so. Otherwise known as the ACOG's.  

      The churches of Armstrong is what this site is about. We expose them for the corrupt, controlling and abusive nature that is part of their community makeup.

      If a writer wants to state that Christianity is a hoax, they have a right to express their opinion.

      "You intention I believe to help free them from the shackles imposed on them by religion. Not to insult there religion or them."

      Correct. Unless they deserve an insult, we do not make this policy when dealing with the religious or the nuts that go along with these groups. The leaders of the various groups don't get off that easy. As public figures, they expose themselves to ridicule and contempt rightly deserved.

      "Do I have my child baptized or not? I don't believe in it myself anymore.But as you mention the shackles are hard to leave behind because they are ingrained in your personality from a very young age."

      Your still a believer in the myth. One thing necessary to de-convert is to accept the reality that religion is a myth and act on that understanding.



      Hi James?
      Ive never participated in any of these sites before and am writing and researching a novel called...The Sect
      Although the names will be changed much will be from real experience.
      I was member for 15 yrs ish in the old regime. Suffered blah blah youve heard it all before. Guess you could say l still am cos l started attending again about ten yrs ago...the GCI bit. I attend Methodist mainly cos CGI is toofar away.
      Youre doing a good job bringing out the truth. Can you give me any more info or put me in touch with any x minister or elite who is willing to talk about attitudes of ministry. What was said in private etc. about the sheeple.?
      Not quite sure where novel will eventually head. There were anomalies at the top not many have even touched on? 
      Hope to hear from you.
      Could send you preview
      Hope lve not broken any rules



      I will post this on the email page with your email address if this is alright with you. Let me know.

      Try using our search engines on the site. Type in "dumb sheep" to start with. You should be able to find what you are looking for.

      As to former ministers, they mostly hate the Painful Truth.
      Must be the
      "Hall of Shame" with all their names listed on it!

      Seriously, for starters try Dennis Diehl for more information. As you may know, he was a former minister in the WCG.



      I just read your entire website.

      I was a member of WWCG for about 50 years.

      My wife attended big sandy

      Now I am broken man

      Never had any true respect for hwa and his ilk

      Many years, I gave $15-20k each month

      I was cheated and robbed, lied to

      I have never known of a more deceptive, lying, crooked, evil, hate filled, racist, selfish, small minded people. Blame myself for falling for them and for sake of family unity, sticking with them.

      It is not wrong to call spade a spade.

      Best regards




      The Jewish Question

      I would like to reply to "Genesis and the Jewish Connection" by Ralph Haulk

      My objective is not to promote a doctrinal standpoint, but to provide further evidence the Herbert W Armstrong was NOT who he claimed to be.

      HWA claimed to be an authority on many subjects; today with the Internet it can quite easily be demonstrated that so called revelation was nothing more than rehashed ideas from other people/sources/organizations, although all these ideas were panel-beated into HWA’s particular system/world-view

      I have spent many years in research and study, so I am at least aware of many of the ideas “out there”.

      The “Jewish Question” is quite a vast and complex subject, something that should have been high-lighted by HWA:

      The basic idea as taught within WWCoG was that ISRAEL had been divided into two, ie Israel in the North and Judah in the South.

      (This is reasonably well-described in the old testament).

      It is true that Israel (North) even fought against Judah (South) and vice versa.

      I don’t want to re-hash that whole scenario here; only to point out that by the time of Christ the situation had become a lot more complex. I do not believe that one can simply equate “Judah” with the Jews. Armstrong’s view was too simplistic, and did not appreciate the complexity of the situation by the time we arrive at 0/4 BC.

      The word that is translated “Jew” should really be translated Judean.

      And the Judeans at the time were made up of a number of people, including Israelites, Edomites and others. Only the context can give one an idea of who is being referred to – it’s a bit like referring to “New Yorkers”: Today New York is made up of diverse people, such was the case in Israel, and of course “Judea”.

      Furthermore, the term “Jew” was only created a long time after 0/4 BC, and the context of the word by that time was a different context than that of the early new testament.

      Today, the term “Jew” is even more complex, since we have moved on about 2000 years since then.

      Judaism developed and evolved since 0/4 BC; Judaism came to have not only a racial context, but a religious context, ie the spread of Judaism went over the world, and numerous peoples absorbed the belief system.

      There is much information on the Internet; some articles refer to the absorption of Judaism by the Khazars, and other peoples. Today, even the Jews cannot agree who really is a Jew.

      Some believe that some people in modern times became “Jews” in order to escape the persecution in their own country, ie they managed to get to Israel via their “Jewish” status,

      So, there is enough information to indicate that the identification of Jews is NOT as simple as equating all Jews to Judah.

      Now, on to Ralph Haulk’s article; today there is a LOT of information connecting numerous world problems to the modern day Jew, such as allegations of Jewish influence in financial systems, governmental systems, educational systems, medical systems, agricultural hybridization, and connections to all kinds of organizations like the freemasons, illuminati etc.

      The point of this short article is that HWA never mentioned any of these issues, and ignored the complexity of the Jewish question, ie who are they really, why do Jews argue with each other over who is a Jew, and the numerous allegations of less than savoury influence in all kinds of organizations.

      I can remember one minister, who once did a sermon on Martin Luther, and highlighted Luther’s dislike

      Of the Jews – his point of view was (as usual) was Luther was another example of “satan’s false ministers” based on Luther’s many unsavory critiques of the Jews

      (who, of course simply had to be equated to “Judah”, so that was that)

      The minister failed to sketch the historical context of Luther’s critique, indeed a cursory study of the Jewish people over the last 2000 years show great complexity, and there are numerous examples of the Jewish people failing to win over the peoples of ther host countries.

      In a nutshell, there is definitely something to Ralph Haulk’s statement

      <<People are more and more waking up to the fact that there is a “Jewish Connection” between our present economic system and the Jews. I have long maintained that the ‘Mystery Babylon” could only be the Jews>>

      I believe that anyone who is interested could do research on the Internet; include origins of the Jews, identification of the Jews etc. The researcher should make up his own mind




      I enjoyed the article by JohnO  about the various planes both of these flew on, or in Garner's case, piloted. The article detailed the various planes, cost of maintenance, extravagant spending on selves etc.  They, along with the vast majority of ministers, did not or do not speak for the one God. Organized religion is mainly false and a mixture of truth and error.  There are real ministers of God, but they are normal people who live with a modest income. I do not reject the teaching's of the bible, but peoples misinterpretation of scripture. One major example: The false belief that Jesus is God. He is the one "Son of God" and subordinate to the one God even in his glorified spiritual body! He is at God's right hand awaiting for the one God to make his enemies his footstool. God does this, not Jesus!  A misinterpretation of the book of John is the main source of the confusion. Nothing in the confession of faith concerning Jesus requires a preexistence, let alone him being God. He had a beginning when he was born. The fact that most professing Christians disagree speaks volumes. Most are not going to rightly divide the word and be saved. Much has been written on this point and much more could be said. Again, I have visited this site many times and enjoy it. I am very sorry that these two misled so many people. I enjoyed Garner's speaking and even agree with some of his viewpoints on scripture, but the idea that Jesus and God are both God's is false. Please do not reject the bible because of these two and the rest, especially, greedy televangelists. Gordy


      Thanks for your 2-cents. I say to each their own!

      If you want to believe that is your business. What I don't approve of is charlatans making a buck off gullible people with a limited understanding of theology. The fear factor these sobs put forth is for one reason. To strip people of their retirement and their children of a decent education in order to enrich the guru.

      Glad you enjoy the Painful Truth. The website is indeed an eye opener!




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