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    Holy Crap!

    I cannot believe your stories I'm reading, but I do believe you, just incredible to know someone has documented my past. My older brother Paul Luecke is still a minister in KS and now just moved to AL, not sure which strain, does it even matter? Explains so much. I also just found Ronald Weinland has become a prophet with his own church following HWA? He appears to be the very same Ron Weinland I knew growing up in Hays KS, although it said he was born in CO. He lived in Sharon Springs KS which is near the KS/CO border, so I assume it is the same man, it appears to be from his photo. He once stayed at our home and slept next to my bed when I was 10 in 1969, I never forget how he laid on his back with his arms up to keep from sleeping whilst napping, and how he could lift his old VW bug off the ground, he actually was a fun guy when he was 20, we played baseball and I rode with him 100 miles to COG church in Salina KS, a long ways in that old beetle...

    I'm so curious, I am now reading all your stuff! I am also available should you wish to contact me for more details if I can help fill in any blanks. You are helping me heal from that traumatic past. Other people I knew from the days my brother Paul attended Ambassador College: Bill Winter, a minister in Wichita, Salina and Hays KS I clearly despised, much preferring the younger Jack Pakozdi, who changed his name to Jonathan Parker and now lives in Ojai CA, the only person from the past I kept in touch with at all, being more normal; Alan Case, who attended with my brother, I dated his sister, but I know he is no longer attached at the hip either; Andy Urban, David Joplin, and many others I cannot recall just now. This could be the best therapy ever, I always felt the WWCOG to be a cult with a tight sphincter. I blocked out all biblical memory after too many daily bible studies. I hated my dad for not allowing me into sports, because of Saturday conflicts, it really messed with my critical social life development.

    I am quite the opposite to my brother Paul, he is a total stick in the mud, and does not seem to care about his original earth family much, only those whom he considers the real chosen ones matter, and his kids have the scars of lack of normal social skills. So, I have no relationship to his three adult kids which is so sad, I became disabled and would love to know them, only 1 of 8 has even been in touch at all with this uncle, one of the saddest facts in my life actually, since I lost my vibrant social life after falling so ill. I'm also writing what may become a book on my family's religiosity, how my dad left the huge catholic family ties we had, causing deep pain, no more holiday gatherings, etc. I recall back to about 6 years old or so sitting in his pickup as he listened to the AM radio with Garner Ted, and it really messed up the family dynamic; we were a deeply catholic-rooted family, both sides all nuns, priests, a monsenior, with only my grandparents surviving to make some heirs, each side had about 10 kids so this was an intense family bond, until Dad turned coat...

    I would love to include now this new information into my new book. You have just helped legitimize my calling this a cult for years.

    It would be a thrill to chat, I'm 60 and largely homebound following a mosquito virus, I now feel a strong urge to connect all these dots from my past. It helps explain the weirdness of all my home-schooled nieces and nephews, acting like they live by a secret code I'm not part of, a personal detachment and refusal to interact or visit family. My dad is William Luecke, 83, who also has his own tiny fellowship Church Of God High Plains in Hays KS. We don't go there...

    It's uncanny seeing names I recognize from 50 years ago. I really appreciate that this is out there, funny I also just finished watching Waco on Netflix, many parallel themes.

    I can be reached here, or at XXX-XXX-XXXX although text is best for a new number until I know it, due to so many marketing calls. I hope this reaches you in good health.

    Tom Luecke


    Hi Tom,

    I see you just discovered the Painful Truth!

    We have been online since around 1997. That's 23 years. 

    So you knew Ron Weinland? He has turned into a real piece of work. This is the result of armstrongism. Not just Weinland, but Dave Pack, Gerald Flurry and a host of others who declare themselves as some biblical character that has come back to "reveal new truths". They in reality are nothing but opportunists exploiting the gullible and weak minded.

    The kids who were bought into the cult by their parents had it worse than any other group. What the parents did is unforgivable because they sacrificed their kids to the cult. A Modern Molech.

    Armstrongism broke up families, dividing the family unit into Waring factors. This policy continues today in the daughter cults.

    Listen, if you care to tell some stories, funny or sad, feel free to participate.

    Tell me, are your parents still alive? Did you ever reconcile with them?

    All for now.




    Hello to Team ,

    How are you … we are surviving here in Perth / Western Australia …

    Thanks for your newsletters + articles etc / you are doing a valuable service

    I am EX-member of WCG / attended London & Bricket Wood + worked @ Ambassador Press 1967-73

    Then , came to Perth WA – somehow lasted 1974 to 1981 – got disfellowship 1981 – Bruce Tyler

    Noticed you have a Suicide List . how about a “ Wrecked Family Relations “ accounts due to leaving church ?

    We sustained this experience – my wife could no longer talk to her sister / 12 mins away ….

    Anyhow , thanks for your efforts – maybe feature more material outside USA ? Chris Z.


    Hi Chris,

    We do have a collection under the tag called "Monsters" on the blog. I think this goes along the lines of horror stories which we have plenty of.

    Material from outside the USA is dependent on the readers to respond. Here in the states the population is more likely not to comply with social norms than those countries outside the states. Its an American thing.



    Well hello friends,

    Three generations of my family have been stuck in the Armstrong cult and as a young person in 2020 I want to assure all of you that the church is alive and well and still destroying lives. I don’t fully understand the effect of the church’s doctrine on my life and my mindset but I continue to unearth new evidence of the damage done every day.

    My grandparents began listening to radio church of god back in the old days and the rest is history. My parents were both raised in the church and while my dad is no longer in it and hasn’t been for many years my mom and grandma are still deeply involved with different splinter groups. I have attended many different splinters throughout my time in the church such as United, Living, the fathers call, which is led by Brian Orchard, and faithful flock, which is led by Don Billingsly. I can safely say that these last two people are some of the few people in the world that I truly hate.

    I put my foot down and refused to attend church anymore in 2016 and it caused a big rift between me and my mom. My Parents divorced in 2009 and I lived as a “spiritual orphan” for most of my life. I’m sure most of you know that divorced women are the lowest lifeform possible in the church and it wasn’t much better for me. Having been out of the church for four years now I’m only starting to begin to understand just how badly it has infected my way of thinking.

    To give an example I was unable to acknowledge the fact that I am gay until 2019 and it still amazes me to this very day. It always felt like my worst nightmare growing up and I secretly hoped I would not turn out gay but here I am. I also find it extremely hard to go see a doctor. I have been vaccinated once in my life and while I would like to get more I can’t bring myself to do it. I received a tetanus last year when I was in the hospital for a work related injury.

    If you don’t decide to post this I understand I know I don’t have much of story here but I do need to get all this out of my system. As I said before I don’t understand the extent of the damage done but it helps to say something to someone. Your website has helped me understand things that I didn’t even know I needed to understand. Reading stories from old worldwide survivors makes me grateful that I was only subject to the underfunded and petty splinter groups.

    Thanks for listening,



    Hi B,

    So you hate Don Billingsly? So do I. I have listened to him speak and I must say I came away depressed. Never visited that church again.

    As it is I have been out 23 years and went on a binge of study to figure out why I was so gullible as to join the wcg. None of my family ever heard of the joke cult so I don't have the issue you have.Your family is a touchy situation. Know that if they ever give you a ultimatum you will have a choice to make. Hopefully it never comes to that point.

    One thing I want to mention to you is vaccinations. I would suggest the basic ones like polio and measles. But seeing how polio is about wiped out along with a host of others I personally wouldn't worry about it. Herd immunity protects you. Flu shots are a waste of time because they never know what strain is going to hit. Unless you are going to be travelling out of the country I would not sweat it. But a talk with your doctor never hurts. Most of them will be honest with the facts. Educate yourself before hand so that you understand the risks..

    As to being gay, that is a common story in the cult world. All the problems you face, the sermons, all that is terrible for your mental health. It is good that you left.

    If I can help you in anyway feel free to write again.
    Best to you my friend.



    I read your story online. I feel much like you. People are always saying god wants a relationship with you and you need to seek his will but when you pray he doesnt answer. When you cry and beg no reply. When you ask him his direction. YOU GET JACK SHIT NADA!!!! THEN when you tell Christian's this they will come up with total bullshit and say THE LORD ALWAYS SAYS THREE THINGS WAIT NO OR YES!!!!! how convenient that they cover all possible responses and how not true as well!!!! I wasted 37 years being a sucker. BE GOOD JOHN THE LORD WILL VINDICATE YOU!!! THE LORD WILL BLESS!!! HE LOVES YOU!!!! and not one motherfucking GODDAMNED THING EVER FUCKING HAPPENED. No vindication when I was wronged. No blessings when I did right. No feeling of love or any sense of peace from god. So then after all that bs if you tell them all this THEN THESE GODDAMN MOTHERFUCKERS TURN IT ON YOU AND SAY ITS BECAUSE SIN IN YOUR LIFE!!!! christianity is nothing short of a revolving door of bullshit. Going in circles chasing your tale as you try to please a god who either doesnt exist or exists and doesnt give one epic little FUCK ABOUT YOU!! That's all I wanted to say.


    Editor: The reader has had his fill of armstrongism it seems.


    Im a former member of the WWCG , son of the minister Lyle Simons ,Vancouver 66 to 69 , Prince George BC 69 to 74 Edmonton 75 to 83 IM now 60 years old and rarely a day goes by without some unpleasant ( i wrestled with which verb ) memory floods in . I contemplated suicide daily in my teens , if only to pain my parents. I bolted from the church and home at 18 and embraced sex drugs heavy metal , Rebel without a clue My story mirrors some Ive read from former members I could pen quite a diatribe but my chief reason for writing is to see if former members who knew me would write me . Am I the only one who sometimes feels broken inside? Am I the only one who cant seem to let it go? I havent spoken to my parents in 6 years and i feel no loss , only relief . I was beat regularly . Cant say it endeared me to them can I? I dont even want to live in the same country as them so Ive been in Mexico and the Philippines for 23 years. IM sober 20 years now , alcohol didnt end in very good results. Im not very focused with this letter as it came as a shock to find this material online . I only recently researched and found about the corruption incest , theft , lies and hypocrisy of the church. 200 million a year holy fuck , no wonder my dad took that cushy job , just baffle people with bullshit and bam new car every two years, big house paid for by the church. I had a huge blowout with my dad , I accused him of knowing full well it was all a con job. I went through all the childhood diseases like measles whooping cough mumps because they wouldnt vaccinate. I asked my dad how many died on his watch for lack of medical care. I saw widows on 30% tithe to the church , that doesnt seem right . I asked him why he didnt stop that or say something . I saw people being dipped in a cattle watering trough in our basement . Basement baptism wow. People excommunicated because they divorced and shit like that. I never planned a future or took university courses or anything in life because I was brainwashed that the end was near. I didnt fit in in school because of weird clothes weird lunch stuff short hair when all boys had long hair. I didnt fit in in church with the other kids , they resented the ministers kid. I had no friends anywhere that I felt had my back , kids in church acted cordially when parents were watching, when they werent I was bullied. I couldnt participate in school sports because of Saturday. Im surprised I didnt step in front of a speeding truck. Id be grateful if anyone who remembers me who can relate will tell me something they observed or felt at the time. Sincerly Trent Simons 


    Hi Trent,

    I will add this to the 411 page and the horror story page. Your a few years younger than I, and should consider that with what you have left of your journey on this earth, you should consider writing to help you deal with the shit you went through. Further, what helped me enormously was 'talk therapy' which helped me deal with the experience. From that point, it was college psychology courses that helped me understand what it was that led me into that abomination known as the worldwide church of god. In your case, you where born into the mess. So how do you deal with it? The answer lies within you. Use your strengths to help yourself bring this to some conclusion that you can live with. Taking your own life should not ever be considered. Take that negative energy and direct it for good instead. Your story, your pain and experiences all have the potential to help others. One persons article(s) may not reciprocate with certain readers, your articles may be just what they need for understanding and healing. I was not a minister or a child of a minister which made leaving Herbies cult real easy. My solution started with throwing all the shit I was brainwashed into the trash followed by my bibles when I learned how that book of fiction came into being. It was the hard road traveled, but in the end well worth it. I follow no man, no politician, no priestly sorts. Not many of the former armstrongites can say that.



    Who was the minister of the Austin church in 1976? He was the one who married my Korean wife and me in May of that year. We were living in San Antonio, but John Bald refused to marry us because the church had a thing about mixed marriages. So we asked the minister in Austin and he drove to San Antonio to perform the ceremony. We were married in the Little Church of La Villita. The minister in Austin believed that love is the most important factor in marriages. You may publish this if you want.

    Tom Driver


    Hell, I don't have a clue.

    PT-Editor, James


    Subject: Mr. Armstrong was not a prophet and never claimed to be one

    Fear not those are not my words. Every once in awhile I search Herbert W. Armstrong's false predictions just to see if any new ones have been discovered and added. Now if a person goes searching for information on HWA he or she will get many "pro sites" defending him. I usually ignore them because I'm sick of them defending him. Well just the other day I again searched HWA false prophecies and The Church of the Great God" was at the top. I thought just for the fun I was going to see what they said about him because I was "sure" they would try to show how he was a prophet and show how some of his so called "predictions" came true.

    But what did I see? I saw an article that admitted HWA made "predictions" and yes they did not happen but the fact he didn't call himself a prophet makes all the "difference" in the world. In essence this exonerates him. Here is a portion of what they said

    "Some may raise strenuous objections to this statement, especially in regard to the first question. Did not Herbert Armstrong say he spoke by the authority of God? Yes, he did, but he never claimed to prophesy—predict future events—in God's name. He never claimed to be a prophet or to prophesy, and that makes all the difference in the world!"

    I felt like writing to them and ask them if this was so then why did he have a book entitled The United States and Britain in Prophecy?

    I'm not sure if I want to get started with them and not because they could draw me back into believing their nutty teaching but I wasn't sure if I wanted to deal with them. If they can stand by him knowing he made false predictions, (I'm using their words) then I doubt they'll give him up or admit he was a false teacher. Life is too short to waste time dealing with idiot, morons.

    You and I also knew the Mr. Armstrong thought he was Isaiah the voice in the wilderness, Elijah and John the Baptist and even Ezekiel's watchmen reincarnated so to speak. And what were these men? They were prophets of course.

    Here is a link so you can see it for yourself. I might have rolled on the floor laughing if it wasn't so "pathetic".

    Take care Doris


    Hi Doris,

    I actually read that sometime back. So I published that short video where Herbie says something like
     "I forecasted (prophesied) that back over 50 years ago."









    Dear Sir: I read with interest, and a degree of amusement , the exchange between you and Carl. I am Christian and had been in WCG for more than twenty years. It always astounds me when Armstrong followers say that what he taught was not taught anywhere else but WCG. The reality is over 90% of his teachings were plagiarisms from others. He simply put a bit of his own spin on things to make it sound original to him and thus “revealed” by God. It’s like saying because I put salt in my meatloaf recipe I invented meatloaf.

    Secondly, the major reason you didn’t hear these teachings elsewhere is because they were heresy. It was amusing to me to see him sighting Zechariah’s prophecy about all nations coming to Jerusalem for the Feast of Tabernacles. Lets pause and think a moment. Does Carl realize just how many multiple billions of people that would be, all trying to cram into one city. Good luck getting a hotel reservation. A real lack of understanding as to how theses statements were to be understood.

    Lastly I can’t help but notice how his condescending and self-righteous attitude drips from his letters. It is evident by his scolding tone and USE OF ALL CAPS to really sock it to you. It seems as if he pictures himself standing alongside of Jesus at his return. You and I will be groveling while he says, “SEE...I TOLD YOU SO!!!”




    Thank you for writing the Painful Truth!

    Carl indeed gave it his best shot in his attempt to 'school' me about the finer points of Armstrongism. Having been a member in the WCG for around a decade, I can say that I also have tried to defend the indefensible back in the day. Like Carl, I failed in my evangelistic attempts to prove Herbie right.

    What I failed to realize was that I had a confirmation bias. I would focus on information in a way that confirmed my own preconceptions. These preconceptions were taught to me by the WCG as 'truths' or information. I, like Carl, never questioned them. Pretty stupid huh?

    Well a lot of us woke up to the fraud perpetrated on us when the suffering became to much to handle or when we used our intellectual God given gifts to figure out we were in a destructive religious cult.

    Those who got out of the WCG/ACOG's survived, and those who stay we can only hope that they don't become self-destructive.




    My name is Carl and I attend the United Church of God, an offshoot of the original Worldwide Church of God.

    I just want to say briefly without having read your "FAQ" page at all. I don't need to. Any cowardly idiot can shoot from the dark without identifying him/herself and make accusations. Your webpage is written in vain and you will face Christ on that great day, but if you cannot look around and see the creation of God, you are a fool. Psalms 14:1 and 53:1. You even lack LOGIC! GOOD BYE!

    -- Carl Binion



    I sense hostility in your brief note. I take it your just discovering our website and are shocked to be discovering the Painful Truth about our former church and its founder.

    You wrote "Any cowardly idiot can shoot from the dark without identifying him/herself and make accusations."
    Since before the the days of Terry Ratzmann, who as you recall killed seven of his church brethren in a LCG church service, management has suspended using last names of editors and co-editors due to death threats. Not one or two death threats, but dozens.

    As to the thousands of pages on the Painful Truth, we have had a standing offer since our conception to take down anything found to be false or inaccurate. That still stands Carl so if you want to complain, feel free to prove us wrong on any article or point. Knock yourself out!

    " will face Christ on that great day."
    As to Jesus Christ, why do you care? The name of Christ is seldom used in your church services. Herbert Armstrong is your prophet and messiah and is mentioned more often than Christ. I should know, I also have attended UCG in the past. It is all about Herbert.

    Now, the Painful Truth has been on line for almost 21 years and has proven to be wildly popular with current and former members. Who you should worry about is yourself when or if Christ returns. You follow after a false prophet who raped his own daughter for over 10 years. The clear evidence stands before you, why do you refuse to accept truth? What will Christ's word to you be?

    Perhaps His words will be "I never knew you." Think about it Carl. It is a definite possibility.

    "...but if you cannot look around and see the creation of God, you are a fool. Psalms 14:1 and 53:1."

    If there is a God it is not the ones on display in the bible. Tell me, if you grew up in a Muslim country would you not say "there is no God but Allah?" Of course you would. It is part of the culture you grew up in. The same with western societies.

    Now Carl, there is another problem with the Jesus you mentioned that you should be aware of. There are over 100 instances throughout history where a man was born of a virgin, died by various methods, was dead in the grave for three days and was resurrected. Why is this Carl?

    Read the pdf:

    I have purposed that a God may exist. A God who is not fashioned after the image of man with all his hatred, jealousy, anger, threats, and outright mass murders. (The god of the bible has killed million within the pages of the bible. Satan is responsible for only two or three murders within the pages of the bible.) This God does not need to be worshiped like men do. Salvation is not even a issue. What is at issue is your journey on this rock called earth and what you have learned. Have you learned to love your fellow man? To serve those who need help? Have you learned empathy and are able to freely express it from the heart? Have you learned discernment, so that you are able to judge good from evil? Do you really try to live at peace with your fellow man? These are some of the thing's that men of good will love and value. How about you Carl? What do you love and value?



    Carl replies:

     Hi again James, So you have actually attended services at the United Church of God? I cannot recommend anywhere else or any other offshoot because I do not agree with all their doctrines myself. Your faith is up to you. One thing I want to emphasize is that whatever you may think of Herbert Armstrong or his son Garner Ted, I have found in all my study that they are the most accurate doctrine I have ever read. I must admit there are a few points I disagree with, like the three resurrections. I cannot find any scripture in the Bible that substantiates that. Let me also say that I believe the Bible, not Armstrong. I do believe he taught what is in the Bible and I have found that nowhere else. Be patient with me I just want to ask you some questions if you have the time to answer. 1. Do churches follow the Bible when they worship on Sunday instead of the Sabbath, which is Saturday? 2. Do the holy days, you know, Passover, Days of Unleavened Bread, Pentecost, Trumpets, Atonement, Feast of Tabernacles, and Last Great Day, agree with man or do they agree with God? Indications of them are all through the Bible, you know. Armstrong was correct to incorporate that doctrine into the church. I attended an church where those things we taught before I ever heard of Armstrong and would not attend any church that doesn't keep the Sabbath or the holy days of God. 3. You said in an earlier email that we never mention Jesus. The Gospel of the kingdom is centered on Jesus Christ and I do not see why we would attend church at all if that were not so. 4. If Herbert Armstrong were a child molester and Biblical liar with all the knowledge he had about the Bible, he would face the most horrible punishment of any sinner because God does not respect his person or anyone's supposed position. (James 2:1-4) You know this so why waste your time putting anything on the internet when you did not personally witness these things. Who is it that will one day judge Armstrong and determine if he gets death in the lake of fire or eternal life with Christ and His Father? That is certainly not you, sir. So blog on if you wish and may God have mercy on you for telling evil things which will not benefit you, but could be your destruction. If you don't believe in Christ that does not mean He doesn't exist. Your mind, nor mine will change that fact. Opinions mean nothing to me. I have seen more proof of God in nature and the world around us. Any fool can see we, mankind, did not make the universe and everything in it. I would rather believe in God than in man, even though I can see evil man with all his sins and the evil committed every single day. Man is nothing before God. Also, if truth is subjective then why does Christ say there is only one Truth. That truth is the word of God, the Holy Bible. In fact, Jesus Himself is the Truth. I will continue to have faith in Him, not in you or any man, and certainly not in Herbert Armstrong. Armstrong's failings have made many like you bitter with disappointment. Why is that? You have trusted in flesh too much! (Jeremiah 17:5) The Bible says the man (or woman) who trusts in flesh is cursed. When you trust in any man or woman, then they disappoint you, the letdown is much more severe. I trust in NO HUMAN BEING THAT EVER WALKED THIS EARTH EXCEPT FOR JESUS HIMSELF. John 17:3 says Jehovah, the God of Israel, whom Jesus prayed to before He was crucified, is the Only True God. I didn't get that from HWA. What do you think of that, James? Isaiah 44:6 says: 6 “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God." The King of Israel is the Father and the Lord of hosts is Jesus Christ our Redeemer. So James you can believe what you want and it is no concern of mine. If you hate God that much then I do not want to egg you on and argue about the truth, God, and etc. Have a nice day, sir. Carl


    Your questions as to the bible are meaningless as I stated before, the bible I do not believe is the word of God. Further you never commented as to the article links I sent you that gives you an idea as to what I believe in and why. Your not listening, your trying to win a non argument with me. People like you will always believe in what Herbie and son taught you. You will never look at the other side of the coin. Go suffer for your indiscretions.



    Carl replies:

     Hello once again. I never said there were any gray areas, but with God there is not "middle of the road", no demilitarized zone. I did not get that from G. W. Bush. I have always thought that way. Gray areas are for people who don't know what the heck they are talking about and do not live in the real world. Also, you like "Herbie" more than I do. His name isn't in the Bible and neither is yours so you nor anyone else influences my thinking. Like Spock on Star Trek either you are correct or you are in error. Life is Black and White. Either one is righteous or evil. In between people are useless to God. I always do my own thinking, my friend. Do your own thinking.



    Your categorical simplicity keeps you from understanding the complex world in which you live. Those outside your accustomed church social setting you view as always being wrong. Binary thinking limits one to simple and categorical conceptualization of complex subjects, constraining oneself to only two possible values for any variable. This is why some folks treat others outside the confines of their social group very differently from those within. People have a tendency to divide folks into categories if they are outside their group, hence your insults towards me.

    I challenged you to step outside your safe boundaries and explore my views and opinions so that we could discuss them. You refused. Instead you label those who differ with you as friends or as foe, good or bad. If people are on your side, or against you. This is actually a simplicity-seeking process that maintains ones social perceptions within a group. In the end, this is detrimental to getting to really know others outside your social settings.

    Consider this lesson from your bible:
    Jesus ate and drank with whores and other 'sinners.' He didn't rail against them for their ways, he forgave them. When relying to the Pharisees he said "Tax collectors and prostitutes will get to the Kingdom of heaven before you."  Jesus never looked at the world in black and white. He looked at the hearts of men in order to judge them. It was the thoughts that came from within a person, not from outside.

    So I am sorry to say Carl, you are not a free thinker in any sense of the term. You are confined by your perceptions within the group that you belong to. This is why it is called binary, or black and white thinking. You cannot look at the world outside the confines of your church or bible like Jesus did.



    Carl replies:

    James, you are very misled, sir. If the info you have about Herbert W. Armstrong is as shabby as the assumptions you have made about me, then you know nothing at all about him or me. Also you should be seeking the kingdom of God with all your heart and not worried about a man who died in 1986. Let Jesus Himself take care of the church. It is His church, you know. Be concerned with your own salvation, not my lifestyle in Christ. You have absolutely nothing to do with my life and will not guide me. He that guides me is the Lord, not you. James, we must work out our own salvation with fear and trembling as Paul wrote in Philippians 2:12. "12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;" Remember the righteous are scarcely saved and if you are worried about whether HWA was a child molester and he is dead and buried, you have a problem, my friend. You blog is not going to change the Church of God. We study our Bibles and obey God. HWA is irrelevant to us in that light. We follow Christ, not HWA and not you. Remember: Let God judge His church and you must judge yourself before He does. 17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 Now “If the righteous one is scarcely saved, Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?” James, if we follow Jesus Christ with all our heart we will barely make it into that coming kingdom of God. How can we be saved and guide our own lives if we worry about the dead? HWA is dead and Satan wants you and many others to be obsessed with him so you won't concentrate on your own salvation. I truly believe that. HWA has turned into a diversion so you will lose your own soul. I speak to people about the kingdom and the gospel all the time. I don't know any rich or very poor, but just everyday simple folk who don't understand the Truth and are simply going about their everyday business. I pray a lot and always stay in touch with my heavenly Father. You should too. I have been giving you God's word and since you say you have attended our church then you should have take notes and studied what was preached when you got home. It will lead you to eternal life. Without God's word man is in complete darkness and faces ultimate death. One last thing is that I want to answer your question which was this. "If there is a God it is not the ones on display in the bible. Tell me, if you grew up in a Muslim country would you not say "there is no God but Allah?" Of course you would. It is part of the culture you grew up in. The same with western societies." The prophecies of the Bible that have come true are the proof. How is it that Israel did not exist as a nation and the Bible says it would exist in the latter days as it does now? How is that? How is it that certain nations of this world are in an alliance predicted in Ezekiel 38. How is it that Jesus was born of a virgin just as predicted in Isaiah 7:14? How is it that Isaiah 13:19-22 says that Babylon shall never be inhabited again? When Saddham Hussein tried to reconstruct it, there came a war called "Desert Storm" and construction stopped on this partially built city. The difference between Christianity and other religions is Bible Prophecies that came true. Before Jesus came and the Romans sacked Jerusalem in 70 AD, the book of Ezekiel and other places say that Jerusalem will be inhabited in the latter days. Read Zechariah 14 which illustrates the return of Christ and how He will stand on the Mount of Olives at the end of the Great Tribulation. The first edict He will issue is that all nations come to Jerusalem from year to year to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. "Sunday" Christians do not understand all this because they keep Xmas, Easter, and Good Friday which are days based upon pagan worship. I know nothing about other religions having people rising from the dead in 3 days and 3 nights. I know "Christianity" as we know it is not obeying Jesus. They call Good Friday to Sunday the way Jesus was crucified and arose from the dead when he actually said he would be in the heart of the earth for 3 full days and 3 full nights or 72 hours. That is found in Matthew 12:39-40. I pray God draws you to His truth. There is only one True God as Jesus prayed in John 17:3. Paul the Apostle wrote the following passage in 1 Corinthians 15:12-19. I will let you read that for yourself. If Christ is not risen then we are in great trouble. Paul said we are false witnesses of God and will die in our sins. No other God, not Allah, not Buddha, not Shinto, not any Indian or Native American god claims to forgive or remit our sins. None of them say they are the only god in their own religious books except the God of Israel, not one. So believe what you wish to, James. It is not up to me to convince you. All I can do is pray for you to have the Father draw you to Him and to His Son Jesus Christ. Take care and I will pray your eyes are opened.


    Carl, you possess no significant intellectual skills whatsoever and have no interest in erudition. And I might also ask, who taught you how to structure a letter?

    Be forewarned that this is the last time I am going to humor you. Don't bother to write back.

    Now, you asked..........."The prophecies of the Bible that have come true are the proof. How is it that Israel did not exist as a nation and the Bible says it would exist in the latter days as it does now? How is that?"

    Isaiah 66:8 was fulfilled when the Persian conqueror of Babylon, Cyrus the Great, authorized the return of the Jews to their homeland. How about the Koran Carl? Did you know that prophecies in that book have also come true?

    "How is it that certain nations of this world are in an alliance predicted in Ezekiel 38."

    “Magog” was a general term used in Ezekiel’s day to identify the barbarians living near the Black and Caspian Seas. In the Book of Ezekiel, Gog is an individual and Magog is his land. In Genesis 10 Magog is a person, the son of Japheth, a son of Noah, but Gog is not mentioned. The only place where you might actually find a Magog as named is Cambridge England.

    Also this is suppose to be a time where the people of Israel are living in safely in the land. That has never been so.

    "How is it that Jesus was born of a virgin just as predicted in Isaiah 7:14?"

    The original meaning of the word parthenos in the Hebrew Bible translated by Hellenistic Jews in Koine Greek is "young woman", not "virgin", but the word eventually changed meaning over the centuries.

    "How is it that Isaiah 13:19-22 says that Babylon shall never be inhabited again?"

    Well it was occupied as you admitted. What part of “never” dont you understand? Babylon was also occupied for 18 months when US forces built a military base "Camp Alpha", with a helipad and other facilities on the ruins during the Iraq War. The same prophecy was said about Tyre. Tyre is now the fourth largest city in Lebanon.

    "I know nothing about other religions having people rising from the dead in 3 days and 3 nights."

    Well I gave you the link. Why didn't you read the article? Or is this a one sided conversation Carl?

    "HWA is dead and Satan wants you and many others to be obsessed with him so you won't concentrate on your own salvation."

    I have heard this all before. Many have tried to convert me back to the cultic life so that the Painful Truth goes away. And finally....

    “Remember the righteous are scarcely saved and if you are worried about whether HWA was a child molester and he is dead and buried,...”

    When HWA screwed his daughter that disqualifies him from the ministry.

    "You blog is not going to change the Church of God. We study our Bibles and obey God. HWA is irrelevant to us in that light. We follow Christ, not HWA and not you."

    The Painful Truth serves as a public service, warning those who might be tricked into joining a harmful cult. My blog and others HAVE changed the ACOG's. There are many who have been courted by these cults and have inquired about them. Because some people actually have a moral compass, they never get involved.

    I could go on and on with you on this but I would be casting my pearls before swine. In all fairness I have given you several opportunities to counter what I have wrote to you. You have declined each opportunity and instead have harped on and on about various things. That my friend is disingenuous.

    Even after telling you that I have no faith in the bible, you keep quoting scripture as if that will change my mind. You just dont get it. If anything good is to come out of this letter exchange, it will be as to just how brainwashed members of the various offshoots are.

    Goodbye Carl. Happy trails.



     Hello Ed , I hope you're healthy and becoming wealthy again? I read on your site bio how the HWA con artist squeezed around $100k from your hard earned pockets. You have to give it to the old Goat , he was a piece of work. Well all's good he'll have to explain his life with the rest of us on Judgment Day. Luckily nobody is getting packed off to that ridiculous Lake of Fire farce. The old Goat stole that scene straight from the Catholics! Can't believe the Papacy didn't file a Law Suite on theft of interlectual property

    The reason for my email is to comment on the Dec 25th video.I had no idea how many Dec 25 Opps there are around the world? It would be very clear to any clear thinking Christian that Dec 25 has nothing to do with the Real Christ as all the established nonsense just does not add up. When the scriptures say prove all things and Trust No Man I am reading a sound Insurance Policy against Global Assholes. I think the bible transition from the Law in the OT to Faith in the New T is the perfect move by our Creator. We are free from everybody on this planet. We now communicate directly with God. No priests, vicars, clerics, evangelist, right reverands absolutely nobody. We read the scriptures and knowledge builds. Talk about keeping things simple? anyway Ed time to move on. Enjoy you journey in life Ed. Best wishes to all.



    Thanks for the note Ed.

    As you should know, the founder of the Painful Truth, Ed, handed the website down to 2 others editors over the years. Now its my turn. I am the fourth editor of the Painful Truth and have been for 9 years.

    It is truly refreshing that those who embrace religion do not need some priestly figure lording over them. They are free. You mentioned the lake of fire concept being ripped off from the Catholics. Yes, Herbie did steal that doctrine of hell and put his own spin on it like he did with all the other doctrines. The man was a thief in more than one way. He created an army of blue ribbon tithe payers, many who became atheists later on in life.

    One thing the ACOG's never mention is their use of the bible. Its a Catholic book. The Catholics hobbled all 66 books together and called it the word of God. Sheer bullshit. It is the writing of various ancient cults all combined into one contradictory mess. The story of the 3 days and nights is indeed about the winter solstice. The rebirth (resurrection) of the sun. Its an old story told again and again over millennium with gods of different names.

    Regarding myself, it took me many painful years to figure out Herbie's scam. It was this website, the Painful Truth, that helped me put it all together. From that point I started to look at the bible and where it came from. Needless to say, I became agnostic. If there is a higher power, this power never wrote any kooky holy book. This power is so much bigger than any holy book god (who has human attributes such as jealousy, hatred and demands that go against biology or science) that its unreasonable and goes against human intellect to believe in it. A more reasonable approach to this is that we put ourselves down here on earth. All life comes from the universe (the heavens) and to the universe we return as energy.




    Hello James , many thanks for your prompt reply. It saddens me that so many people the world over have been stained by all Religious organs. My view now is to review all material , test the logic and fit into my life what applies. But nothing is permanent. Views are always changing. Life is adaption.

    Strangely I met some really fantastic people thru that HWA operation.But most just had blind faith and trust. The outcome surely is a broken heart and enormous bitterness. If these loving people had this beautiful outward community spirit without the constraints of Organized Religion we'd all still be life long friends. So here is the issue, why can't people live in harmony without some dick in a suit dishing out some looney swill morals? Why do people believe there has to be a school teacher in the yard for harmony and order?

    But this applies to All People Controlled Operations. I have lost count of all the crap Perception Rackets on this Planet. Life sadly is multiple lessons. Some are good but nearly all are toxic. Just like our bodies , once you cease exposing it to junk , it automatically begins to heal. I can only hope that all the anger and bitterness quells over time. I myself have been cheated in marriage , in finance and trust. Each to be experienced but not terminated because of negative experience. Each can only be reviewed with a different outlook. In marriage , eyes and ears open at all times. In finance , spread your portfolio. In Trust - well that's life tested on a very long road and some..

    I still believe the Bible is the good book. There are massive twistedinterpretations of it and no wonder once you get people involved in anything , it turns to shit. I mean how can a book be written in 3 languages over 2000+ years be sorted? Society today could not manage that caper and we have computers!!

    I believe the core themes of good will and charity to all people , all cultures and all walks of life begins with openess. The rest is our perception on things. There are no blacks or whites , only people. In my short life of 57 years I have found that 98% of everything I read and observed is total bullshit. Modern medicine is Bull , mass media is Bull , peoples goals in life are Bull. ( Get rich?) Slave away for possessions which cannot add another day of happiness to yourlife.

    The Global markets are a total Con.Then add rubbish like market protected processed foods , Wall street wars , Mandalay Bay mass shooting , politics , modern education , Fake science , bullshit Cancer treatments , fluoridation and on it goes. All garbage themes. I have a test in life , if it stings , smells weird , sounds weird , looks weird and utters retarded drivel I'm backing off real quick. Anyway James that's my spin on life. But who am I? Just another micro organism on this still beautiful planet whizzing thru space on a free journey to nowhere.

    I wish you all the success in helping the Herbie ex pats. It is in mynature to drill people that harm me but then that would consume my entire life and when I think about that picture I can't be bothered wasting my life on screwed up issues. Life is way too short as is. Soak up the good stuff champ and ditch the crap. ( that's what dumps are for ) what ever the outcome , no matter the future take care James. Turn the page of this book on life and live the next chapter. Yeh mahn the Peace Train is a coming.

    cheers champ Ed


    I used to enjoy Garner Ted. Armstrong's "World Tomorrow" t.v. show. I still listen to some of his sermons and even agree with some of his opinions. He was a good speaker and knowledgeable on many subjects.

    The strict, ridgid system you described is of course completely unsupported by the bible. I wish people would think for themselves and fully realize that all that speak from the bible are not saved or ministers of God. Far from it. I won't quote scripture, but I will make this simple point. In the book of Act's, after Christ's ascension, salvation went to the gentiles. They received basic starting points for salvation and then went into the Jewish synagogues on the sabbath day for more biblical truths necessary for true salvation. The book of Act's states that truth. They didn't start their own churches with their own names! All these modern day church organizations that multiply like cockroaches, didn't exist! I wish they didn't exist today as they are misleading many people. There are decent people within disorganized religion, but they are receiving truths and untruths. They are receiving lies in some instances, because the speaker is deliberately not telling the truth and not merely mislead themselves. People need to study for themselves and not trust in others to receive all the truth. I will only change my biblical beliefs when all bible scripture on a subject is considerered. Ex. The belief that Jesus is God. Nothing in the confession of faith requires it to be true and yet many believe it! Greek philosophers came up with the idea and since people love an intelligent speaker the idea caught on and spread. An internet search proved this point. A quote found on the internet from an ancient philosopher: "How could such a one be a mere man, receiving the beginning of his existence from Mary, and not rather God the Word, and the only begotten Son? For in the beginning was the Word, and the Word....."   Apostle Paul stated the falling away was already beginning in his time! It has come along way in 2000 years (approx.). Alot more could be said on this subject, but bible verses need to be examined to prove Jesus was a man and was born like anyone else with the exception of no man was his father. A rather big exception. Take Care


    Thank you expressing your opinion as to the current reality having to do with the false prophets within the Armstrong movement.

    Indeed there are many false prophets, and Armstrongism as it turns out, is excelling in the field as it cranks out more and more of them on a yearly basis. Its all about the hunt for tax tithes. They build wealth and you take the financial hit.



    Yes, I hear what you are saying and I agree. Thanks for writing your piece.

    I was forced to attend Catholic school from 1978-1989, so, as you can imagine, I have spent the rest of my life unlearning the nonsense I was taught.

    I never found the story of Jesus relevant to my personal life and spent as much time as possible shutting out what they were forcing on me.

    I disliked being told how much I "OWED HIM" when I had never met him.

    I asked why I was being held accountable for the crucifixion of this ONE guy, while no one held me accountable for slavery -which affected millions.

    I was punished for being a smart ass. Critical thinking was never allowed.

    At 18 years old, I was told I had this thing called "FREE WILL", so I held them to their word and I walked away.

    They didn't like that, but I didn't care.

    Thanks for writing your page/blog.

    Sincerely, JoAnn


    Hi JoAnn,

    Good to see you gained your freedom from religious abuse.

    When the ministry tells you that you OWE Christ, what they are really convening is that you owe THEM.

    Your one of the smarter people. You figured out that you were being scammed. Many such as myself had to go the full gauntlet to figure out that these people were parasites on the ass of humanity.

    My hat tips to you!




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