Comments on Ambassador Watch: Untrue History & the Truth-challenged Church

For a true history read "Raising the Ruins" by Ste...

2006-11-01T14:02:00.000+13:00

For a true history read "Raising the Ruins" by Stephen Flurry.

'By the way, you can't really claim Waldensians ex...

2006-10-28T15:46:00.000+13:00

'By the way, you can't really claim Waldensians existed 500 years before Peter Waldo either."

Hey wrong boy, you are wrong again. Some scholars, the good ones, feel that Waldo, not "wheres Waldo", which you probably are still working on between your blogs....where Waldo was called that because he was a Waldensian, not that he gave them that name....wrong boy, I think you need to get a life and get out of the blogosphere.......go play Where's Waldo.

"I know that Wade Ewart Cox told you this....." R...

2006-10-28T15:43:00.000+13:00

"I know that Wade Ewart Cox told you this....."

Really, with the internet you can find anything to prove yourself right or wrong. I actually found Wade Cox page after I found the Mirror on the web. Actually, I found his websites in September of the year I found Mirror in April that year...so, please, do you really think the sass and the tearse discussion makes a point. I think that most of the people responsible for the blog pages that make up the x wcgers do not write like you guys...simply caustic trash, because your only comeback to a fact or a quote is a putdown.

You do that only because you cannot face a fact and answer a fact from someone who has done research.....and....you can't take being wrong, like Denis' article states. You are wrong and you do not like being told you are wrong.

Well, you are wrong, say you are sorry and I will forgive you.

"Again, read legitimate works of history, and chec...

2006-10-28T15:36:00.000+13:00

"Again, read legitimate works of history, and check into the latest and best historical scholarship."

Do you really believe that recent scholarship which does not have access to older texts is better than a quote from a book only a few years old, from a witness?

I would thoroughly agree with you if it was EG White, HWA or others in the 1800s and 1900s saying this, but really, these people they were quoting were living there right with them. Besides, taking a swipe at only a small portion of what I wrote without addressing the full context is simply poor scholarship as well. Read your own Catholic Encyclopedia to find numerous quotes about Sabbath keepers from the same periods.

Most of the books that these people were reading no longer exist. There is so much out there to discover, woefully out of date....closer to the date is more like it.

Jared, this is part of the WEC package of the CCg....

2006-10-22T18:16:00.000+13:00

Jared, this is part of the WEC package of the CCg. You know the one.

Let's just call it the book about the Transylvania Vampire Sabbatarians and leave it at that.

"Read the Martyr's Mirror. Based on source materia...

2006-10-22T15:06:00.000+13:00

"Read the Martyr's Mirror. Based on source material prior to 1670 Insabbati meant regardless of Sabbaths, it had nothing to do with sandals or shoes, at least in 1670, and this author quotes the king of Bohemia saying the Bohemians were the old Waldenses. Allix, he said the Waldenses kept Saturday in 1690."

Sorry, all of that is woefully out-of-date material. It's indisputable that insabbati means "wearers of sabot," not "Sabbath-keepers," uninformed speculations and misinterpretations from the late 1600s notwithstanding. There were no Saturday-keeping Waldenses in the 1600s, nor were the Waldenses of Bohemia Saturday-keepers, nor is there record of any Saturday-keeping among the Waldenses at any time in their history.

Again, read legitimate works of history, and check into the latest and best historical scholarship. Don't rely on quotes of seventeenth-century sources at three or more removes from the original text. Then you'll know the truth about the Waldenses, and won't fall for the spurious legends that have been told about them in Adventist/Sabbatarian circles for so long.

For the uninitiated unwashed, besides the Seven Ch...

2006-10-21T20:40:00.000+13:00

For the uninitiated unwashed, besides the Seven Church Eras of the New Testament down to our time, there is now a new theory that there were Seven Church Eras of the Old Testament ending in Jesus' time with the Pharisees being the Laodoceans.

Clear.

Neat.

Logical.

And wrong!

Read the Martyr's Mirror. Based on source material...

2006-10-21T20:30:00.000+13:00

Read the Martyr's Mirror. Based on source material prior to 1670 Insabbati meant regardless of Sabbaths, it had nothing to do with sandals or shoes, at least in 1670, and this author quotes the king of Bohemia saying the Bohemians were the old Waldenses.

Wrong!

I know that Wade Ewart Cox told you this and that you swallowed it hook line and sinker, but you can't really prove it, nor can you find any credible support for anything else he says. By the way, you can't really claim Waldensians existed 500 years before Peter Waldo either.

Give it up.

You will not find 72 virgins waiting for you in the Kingdom of God either: What's with that? Allah wants you to forget about Him in the afterlife? Likely story.

You can't mix Waldensians, Christianity and Sabbath Keeping with Islam and expect to maintain any semblance of sanity.

I pointed out that the Waldensians were not Sabbat...

2006-10-21T20:21:00.000+13:00

I pointed out that the Waldensians were not Sabbath Keepers to the WCG back in 1990. Their response in the Plain Truth was that even though the Waldnesians didn't keep the Sabbath....

It's something we call Fanagle's Law: Draw the curve and pick the points to match; if history doesn't support your distorted perception, revise it.

We all got into the Churches of God through the Personal Hype Cycle: Most of us are now experiencing the total loss of confidence, since the slope of enlightenment leading to the plateau of maturity just isn't in the cards for us who have plunged through the trough of disillusionment.

Read the Martyr's Mirror. Based on source materia...

2006-10-21T17:47:00.000+13:00

Read the Martyr's Mirror. Based on source material prior to 1670 Insabbati meant regardless of Sabbaths, it had nothing to do with sandals or shoes, at least in 1670, and this author quotes the king of Bohemia saying the Bohemians were the old Waldenses. Allix, he said the Waldenses kept Saturday in 1690. This stuff is old stuff, not 1974m 1690, and they had source materials we do not have. Waldenses kept Saturday or Sunday and sometimes both. It depended on where they lived and from whom they learned. They were Bastists then too, not sure if they are now, then they were.

"I don't know how you managed never to hear them t...

2006-10-21T05:05:00.000+13:00

"I don't know how you managed never to hear them teach it specifically."

I do remember the teaching that there was never a time in history when the true Church of God did not exist. The part I do not remember being taught is that there was an unbroken line of laying on of hands from the first century till now. For example, in Dr. Hoeh's book, A True History of the True Church, in the part about Peter Waldo, it says that he used his money to have a translation of the Bible made, that he began to study the scriptures, and that God was opening his mind to understand what he read. It then goes on to say that a remnant of the Church of God began to listen to him and he made many new converts. It says nothing about any ordained ministry laying hands on him.

Perhaps the literature that taught an unbroken line of laying on of hands was out of print when I was in Worldwide, or I never requested it, and the local pastors I heard never focused on that subject.

HWA was baptized by a Baptist minister . A John Ki...

2006-10-20T13:34:00.000+13:00

HWA was baptized by a Baptist minister . A John Kiesz? of COG 7th day stated in a letter to me that HWA did not want to be Baptised by a cog group. Interesting that he was ordained in the COG 7th day without being baptized by them. I contacted years ago the COG 7th groups and they told me that HWA did not have to be baptised by them to be ordained into their group. Needless to say i was shocked because of what HWA taught over the years. I then asked powers to be in GCG in the 90's about all this and HWA's church government teachings as they contradict his behaviour in COG7. I was told about HWA's rewriting in the 70's on Church Government so mass hoards of people would not leave and start their own COG. How ironic and sad at the same time. They all tend to gravitate away from the bible to prove their collective beliefs.
rod 2

You don't want to ask ME that, Jorgheinz. :-D

2006-10-20T11:17:00.000+13:00

You don't want to ask ME that, Jorgheinz. :-D

In short, most of the Protestants who opposed Roma...

2006-10-20T10:35:00.000+13:00

In short, most of the Protestants who opposed Roman Catholicism kept Sunday, and not the Sabbath.

And these same Protestants took up arms against the Catholics when Christ said that his servants should not fight.

Where was the true church during this time?

JHS

"... this was never the basis or authority for the...

2006-10-20T03:26:00.000+13:00

"... this was never the basis or authority for the teachings and practices of the Church, but rather the Bible was used as the authority for all doctrines and practices."

Precisely. The Bible clearly places no requirement on any Christian to keep the seventh day Sabbath in order to receive salvation. Tracing the keeping of the Sabbath from one little heretical group to another throughout history to try to establish a genetic lineage for this practice is an exercise that is without value.

Sabbatarians need to start with (and end with) the Bible.

-- Neo

"Probably many in the COGs believe this, but I per...

2006-10-20T02:42:00.000+13:00

"Probably many in the COGs believe this, but I personally have never heard a minister teach this specifically (I have been in the Church of God since 1982)."

I don't know how you managed never to hear them teach it specifically. I heard several ministers teach it, and Herbert Armstrong made sure to include a (probably false) story of receiving a "communal" laying on of hands when he was ordained. In the WCG, we believed that without that laying on of hands, there was no valid ordained ministry. Therefore we naturally "understood" that, even if we couldn't document it, Herbert Armstrong's ordination was in a lineage of "apostolic succession" tracing back to Jesus. We even said so in our literature, though I don't recall any more when and where we made the claim. At any rate, Herman Hoeh claimed in "A TRUE History of the TRUE Church" that Christians may not assemble lawfully without an ordained minister, which logically requires that there always have been ordained ministers throughout the history of the (nonexistent) One True Sabbathkeeping Church.

"My point is, Herbert W. Armstrong looked to the Bible to determine if he had the authority to baptize or not, and he based his decision on the Bible, according to his autobiography. I don't think he was necessarily looking to an 'unbroken line of the laying on of hands' as his authority."

Well, it's a general belief in Christianity that anyone can baptise. Indeed, the Catholic Church teaches that in an emergency even an unbaptised person can baptise. So Armstrong's baptising prior to his ordination is interesting but doesn't really tell us anything about what we believed and taught in the WCG. The fact is, we in the WCG understood that it was imperative to trace the "true history of the true church" to demonstrate that we really were the One True Church. The idea that anybody who picks up a Bible and starts a church, as long as he claims to be teaching what the Bible says, is in historical, corporate continuity with Jesus and the Apostles, is hogwash and horsefeathers. Except for liberal, modernistic denominations, what Christian group doesn't claim to teach the authentic biblical truth? But does that show they all have an unbroken historical succession from Jesus and the Apostles? Of course not. The only way to show that is to look at the historical record, not oppose one's favored Bible interpretations to the thousands of other Bible interpretations.

I think it was around 1995 to 1998 when a writer i...

2006-10-20T01:40:00.000+13:00

I think it was around 1995 to 1998 when a writer in the WCG publication "Worldwide News' admonished anyone having problems with not accepting that the waldensians were NOT sabbath keepers , should contact the waldensians themselves. I did and found ZIP about them ever doing so. One of the few times i gave any credit to WCG then about being right on anything.
rod 2

"There are many in the COG who believe that the 'H...

2006-10-19T18:51:00.000+13:00

"There are many in the COG who believe that the 'Hands that laid Hands on them' in Baptism, Ordination, Marriage etc. came from an 'Unbroken' lineage going back to the original apostles and Jesus himself."

Probably many in the COGs believe this, but I personally have never heard a minister teach this specifically (I have been in the Church of God since 1982). Probably some ministers taught this, but I haven't heard them or don't remember what they said. In his autobiography, Herbert W. Armstrong says he was baptized, but not by whom. He also baptized others before he was ordained as a minister. He did this based on Bible scriptures that show that those who do the preaching (he was preaching at this time, before he was ordained) can also baptize, and that no scripture required ordination before someone baptized another.

My point is, Herbert W. Armstrong looked to the Bible to determine if he had the authority to baptize or not, and he based his decision on the Bible, according to his autobiography. I don't think he was necessarily looking to an "unbroken line of the laying on of hands" as his authority.

I think it was natural for the Church to try to research what other Sabbath-keeping churches existed from the first century to the present, but this was never the basis or authority for the teachings and practices of the Church, but rather the Bible was used as the authority for all doctrines and practices.

Richard, regarding the Waldensians, the Sabbath an...

2006-10-19T17:47:00.000+13:00

Richard, regarding the Waldensians, the Sabbath and the SDAs, I found this information over at ellenwhite.org

Inacuracies Regarding the Waldenses

Mrs. White would have us believe the Waldenses observed the Sabbath:

"Through ages of darkness and apostasy there were Waldenses who denied the supremacy of Rome, who rejected image worship as idolatry, and who kept the true Sabbath. Under the fiercest tempests of oppositions they maintained their faith." (page 65)

"Some of whom [Waldenses] were observers of the Sabbath." (page 577)

Dr. Bacchiocchi has probably done more research on the Sabbath than any living human. Did he find evidence that some of the Waldenses observed the Sabbath?

I spent several hours searching for an answer in the two scholarly volumes Storia dei Valdesi--(History of the Waldenses), authored by Amedeo Molnar and Augusto Hugon. These two books were published in 1974 by the Claudiana, which is the official Italian Waldensian publishing house. They are regarded as the most comprehensive history of the Waldenses. To my regret I found no allusion whatsoever to Sabbathkeeping among the Waldenses.

Dr. Bacchiocchi is not the first Adventist to search for evidence of the Waldenses keeping the Sabbath. The only thing they have found are some documents which refer to the Waldenses by their nickname, "insabbati." Unfortunately for Mrs. White, the term has nothing to do with the Sabbath. It refers to the sandals the Waldenses were known to wear. The Latin word for sandals is sabbatum. Thus, the Waldenses were insabbati--"sandal wearers."

The Waldensian representative in Italy was recently contacted and asked if the Waldenses ever kept the Sabbath. Here is his response:

The Waldensians did not keep the Sabbath and were not guardians of the "Sabbath Truth" as you call it. ... We can therefore say very clearly that the Waldensians were not Seventh-day Sabbath keepers and they were not persecuted for keeping Saturday as the Sabbath!

Apparently Mrs. White wanted to have a line of unbroken Sabbath-keeping, from the time of the apostles, to the Waldenses in the mountains, all the way through to the time of the Seventh-day Adventists. Unfortunately, such a continuum does not exist. Sunday-keeping began much earlier than Mrs. White realized, and the Waldenses never kept the Sabbath at all.

Another inaccurate statement Mrs. White made about the Waldenses is:

"Behind the lofty bulwarks of the mountains . .. the Waldenses found a hiding place. Here the light of truth was kept burning amid the darkness of the Middle Ages. Here for a thousand years, witnesses for the truth maintained the ancient faith." (pp. 65-66)

The Waldensian movement was established by Peter Valdes around 1176. The Waldenses were not excommunicated from the church until 1184. Therefore, the move to the mountains could not have taken place until after 1184, and the persecution of the Waldenses had subsided by the late 1600's, so it would be impossible for the Waldenses to have kept the light of truth burning for "a thousand years" during the Middle Ages. 500 years is a more likely number.

"That there were no Sabbath keeping Waldensians is...

2006-10-19T17:42:00.000+13:00

"That there were no Sabbath keeping Waldensians is an out and out falsehood."

You obviously haven't read very many Waldensian histories.

"Even Erasmus, many years prior to the 30 years war, stated there were Saturday Sabbath keepers throughout Bohemia (modern day Czech Republic)."

Yes, but there weren't Waldensians.

"These were called the old Waldenses who stated the church 'died' with Sylvester."

No, they weren't. I once had the same misconception about the Sabbath-keepers of Bohemia, but when I read legitimate historical sources instead of seventh-day Sabbatarian pseudohistory, I found that the Waldenses of Bohemia were Sunday-keepers just like all the other Waldenses.

"It also seems to me you are of the belief that few if any were ever killed or tortured by the established church."

I don't know why you would assume I was of that belief. It's true that the numbers of those killed or tortured was deliberately inflated by the enemies of the Catholic Church, but just because there weren't 50 bazillion heretics burned at the stake as anti-Catholics have claimed, that doesn't mean there were hardly any burned at the stake. The number is a LOT lower than the Black Legend claims, but it's still a good number. And of course, if you wish, you can add the numbers of non-Catholics who died in the wars of religion during the 1500s and 1600s -- but try and be fair and balance the scales with the numbers of Catholics who were massacred by Protestants during the same period of time.

Or better yet, instead of playing the "Your church killed more heretics than my church" game, how about we go the route of repentance and humility, confessing our grievous sins and those of our fathers, and give God thanks that we don't kill heretics anymore. (We just hold them up to deservedly merciless ridicule, like here at AW.)

Not that this little tangent helps you in any way to prove that there were Sabbath-keeping Waldenses. Regardless of how many heretics were put to death back then, there's no trace of Sabbath-keeping Waldenses anywhere in history.

The Seventh-Day Adventists have a three-part video...

2006-10-19T17:23:00.000+13:00

The Seventh-Day Adventists have a three-part video series on the Waldensians, and their persecution in northern Italy centuries ago. The end of each part has a lengthy list of books used as reference material. I didn't jot down the list, but only one that I recall came from Ellen White.

Pinelli and ties...it seems that since so many of ...

2006-10-19T16:46:00.000+13:00

Pinelli and ties...it seems that since so many of the Meredith follwers who are leaving LCG, not all are with the Packman, some are coming to UCG and must be complaining at how lax the UCG dress code is in comparison to those in LCG where although unwritten, the expectations are implied. Next, a bet, women wearing slacks......

Greeting's from the CEO of Church of God Industrie...

2006-10-19T16:13:00.000+13:00

Greeting's from the CEO of Church of God Industries!
Yes, as in all Churches of God, as well as my own cult, we only allow "Yes Rev. Kscribe" as an example of proper respect.
We also trace our origins to the Church that Jesus founded in the early first century. My proof? Just ask me! It is the Plain Truth as everyone of my mind num robots know!
As for Joey Tkach, (Count Tkachula) well let me supply you with the holyday offering over at http://www.herbertwarmstrongvideo.net/

I agree that to broad brush a statement about prim...

2006-10-19T16:12:00.000+13:00

I agree that to broad brush a statement about primitive church relationships and tracing of roots is a stretch and difficult to prove if even remotely possible.

However, there is a truth that there have been Sabbath keepers throughout history and in more places than you and others who you agree with would ever be willing to admit.

It also seems to me you are of the belief that few if any were ever killed or tortured by the established church. I remember one number given of about 5,000 on the old AW site. What about the 50,000 killed who were Hugenot? What about the over 100,000 Albigensians and Waldensians killed (the ones who would not fight) by the fighting Irish who were invited by France to come to do some damage to those not of the established church? And those, in what is today, the Czech Republic where after the 30 years war the population being a mix of Roman Catholic and Protestant with a total of 800,000 were whittled down to a small population all of the Roman faith? That there were no Sabbath keeping Waldensians is an out and out falsehood. Even Erasmus, many years prior to the 30 years war, stated there were Saturday Sabbath keepers throughout Bohemia (modern day Czech Republic). These were called the old Waldenses who stated the church 'died' with Sylvester. He was the one who said to Judaize by keeping the Sabbath and not the Dominical day was heresy.

There were Sabbath keepers clear up to his day, and, he is the one who established the calendar in Latin with the Word Sabbath, for the 7th day as it is in most Latin based languages to this day.

No matter how you want to cut it, all lines lead e...

2006-10-19T13:11:00.000+13:00

No matter how you want to cut it, all lines lead eventually back to Rome. This fact brings up some interesting questions.

Have their always been Sabbatarians? This is probably likely, but they may have existed in one line, which died out, while another group was emerging , which had ZIP to do with the dying group. There certainly is no direct continuities.

In fact the leap from Seventh Day Baptists to COG7 and the Adventists was not done by the ORG of the Seventh Day Baptists (which still exists) by merely by a young teenage girl named Rachel Oakes who left the Seventh Day Baptists for an early Adventist group in New Hampshire.

All this proves that it is ok for anyone to be a "start up" and not needing some form of "approval" by some ORG that they are the approved succesor of the "torch". Sabbatarian history is chock full of individuals who, without any permission, decided to go forth and multiply, without the blessing or "laying on of hands" by anyone.