Comments on Ambassador Watch: 10 Bad Reasons to go "Bah, humbug!"

Gavin, I like "Anonymous",s idea of seasonal lyri...

2006-12-02T13:53:00.000+13:00

Gavin,

I like "Anonymous",s idea of seasonal lyrics,limericks etc.

We should have a "competition" and email the "best" to those COG orgs most worthy of receipt of such.

jorgheinz

Well, Scott, Your list, as republished by Gavin, ...

2006-12-02T12:47:00.000+13:00

Well, Scott,

Your list, as republished by Gavin, seems to be geared to those who aspire to become spiritual Jews. Nothing against the Jews and all, but I have my heart set on becoming a spiritual Negro! I figure that'll get me where I really want to be, which is to a state of being able to play better guitar in the Kingdom.

The Armstrongites will probably mob Moses and Ezekiel, or want to bask at the feet of Gamaliel. But, I'll be wanting to sit in on some serious sessions with Muddy Waters, Freddie King, or Earl Hooker.

So, maybe I should be celebrating Kwaansaa, and experiencing a foreshadowing of what it'll like to be a brotha in the Kingdom???

BB

(1) Christmas is driven by commercialism. HOLY D...

2006-12-02T09:46:00.000+13:00

(1) Christmas is driven by commercialism.

HOLY DAYS WERE DRIVEN BY HAVING SEVEN MORE CHANCES A YEAR TO SUCCOR THE BRETHREN.

(2) Christmas is nowhere mentioned in the Bible.

NOR IS UCG,DAVE PACK, RON WEINLAND, GERALD FLURRY OR HWA. FLEET CARS MAYBE IF YOU DRIVE AN OLD PLYMOUTH FURY.

(3) Jesus wasn't born on or near Dec. 25.

BUT THE SUN OF GOD WAS ON THE WINTER SOLSTICE SO LIGHTEN UP. AND THE SUN OF GOD WAS CROSSIFIED AT THE SPRING EQUINOX WHEN THE SUN OF GOD PASSED OVER THE CROSS SPOT. I REALIZE THESE CONCEPTS ARE TOO ECLIPTIC IN NATURE FOR YOU GUYS.

(4) The Christmas holiday is largely a recycled pagan celebration.

SO IS PASSOVER, THE EUCHARIST ALONG WITH ALL THE HOLYDAYS THAT FOUND THEIR ORIGINS IN CANAANITE AND EGYPTIAN CONCEPTS.

(5) God condemns using pagan customs to worship him.

ACTUALLY HE DOESN'T. HE IS A JEALOUS GOD AND WANTS THE PAGAN WORSHIP FOR HIMSELF AND NOT THE OTHER GODS THAT HE IMPLIES ARE OUT THERE, JUST NOT GOOD ENOUGH. ONCE AGAIN, AND PAY ATTENTION. THE OT WORSHIP FORMAT IS PAGAN, ADOPTED MOSTLY FROM THE NATIONS AROUND ISRAEL. NOTHING SPRINGS FROM A VACUUM, OR A WASHINGMACHINE EITHER.

(6) Christmas is worshipping God in vain.

SO IS SPENDING WAY TOO MUCH MONEY YOU DON'T HAVE ON GIFTS, FOOD,BOOZE, CRUISE SHIPS AND BEACH SIDE RESORTS YOU THINK YOU WILL OWN IN THE KINGDOM.

(7) You can't put Christ back into something He was never in.

OH SURE YOU CAN! GOSPEL WRITERS AND PAUL PUT JESUS IN THE OLD TESTAMENT ALL THE TIME AND HE WAS NEVER IN IT.

(8) The Bible nowhere tells us to observe a holiday celebrating Jesus Christ's birth - but it clearly does tell us to commemorate His death.

THE BIBLE ALSO TELLS ME THAT WHEN I GO TO WAR, IF I SEE A VIRGIN I LIKE, I DON'T HAVE TO KILL HER, BUT CAN KEEP HER FOR MYSELF. THE BIBLE ALSO TELLS ME IT'S OK TO KILL OFF CHURCH MEMBERS WHO DON'T COUGH UP ALL THE MONEY. ISN'T IT FUNNY THAT PETER KILLS OFF THESE FOLKS FOR SAYING THEY'D DO ONE THING AND DID ANOTHER WHEN PETER SAID ONE THING ABOUT DEFENDING JESUS AND DID ANOTHER BY DENYING HIM? WONDER WHAT LUKE WAS REALLY SAYIN THERE?

(9) Christmas obscures God's plan for mankind.

THE WHOLE BIBLE OBSCURES GOD'S PLAN FOR MANKIND WITH FALSE HISTORY, MYTH HISTORIZED, UNFULFILLED PROPHECIES, NON PROPHECY PROPHECIED, POLITICS AND BAD APOSTOLIC BEHAVIOR. OH AND THE BOOK OF REVELATION DOESN'T HELP UNOBSCURE THINGS MUCH EITHER. BUT IT DOES GIVE A CHURCH LOTS OF WAYS TO WRITE ABOUT THE NEWS AND SCARE PEOPLE INTO JOINING SOMETHING.

(10) I'd rather celebrate the Holy Days Jesus Christ and the apostles obseerved.

I'D RATHER UNDERSTAND THAT SOME DID AND SOME DIDN'T AND THERE NEVER WAS A TIME IN CHURCH HISTORY AFTER THE DEATH OF JESUS WEHRE THERE WAS ONE COHERENT CHURCH OF TRUTH KNOWING BRETHREN...ALL ONE BODY WEEEEEEE

On such a holy forum as this we cannot wish our fr...

2006-12-01T12:47:00.000+13:00

On such a holy forum as this we cannot wish our friends transmissible greetings.

However, we can wish you a
MERRY MYTH-MAS.

jorgheinz

Dennis, And a Super Saturnalia to-ya! I won't be...

2006-12-01T11:20:00.000+13:00

Dennis,

And a Super Saturnalia to-ya!

I won't be in England for it this year, but we have Brit visitors coming in for it--and we'll all be in New York New York for the changing of the old Roman year to the next.

A splendid time is guaranteed for all...

Camfinch...We would get along sooooooooo well! I ...

2006-11-30T13:30:00.000+13:00

Camfinch...We would get along sooooooooo well! I didn't enjoy Xmas when in WCG because it was "pagan" and now I enjoy it because it is and in ways that most never ever will understand. Look up and you'll see the story unfold every clear night and season as you no doubt know. Merry Mithras!

Check out Garrison Keillor's "'T'was the Night be...

2006-11-30T12:45:00.000+13:00

Check out Garrison Keillor's
"'T'was the Night before Christmas"

http://prairiehome.publicradio.org/programs/2004/12/25/scripts/twas.shtml

Dry humor from a recovering fundamentalist.

Come,all folk and do not dream Of Xmas pud all cov...

2006-11-30T12:12:00.000+13:00

Come,all folk and do not dream
Of Xmas pud all covered in cream.
Do the deed and grab a plate
And helpings three have you ate.
Without a vision people die,
Enjoy the double, whisky ply.
Let no killjoy spoil your play,
Santa still comes Xmas Day.

jorgheinz

Gavin, Rewording the carol slightly, let's all de...

2006-11-30T11:58:00.000+13:00

Gavin,

Rewording the carol slightly,
let's all deck the halls with boughs of FOLLY and put on our GAY
apparel,as the text states.

Should we keep these days symbolic
By getting drunk and alcoholic?.
Christmas time has come around,
SIX-PACKS surely will abound.
Give to Christ , and in a hurry,
SEND YOUR PREZ TO GERALD FLURRY.
The end draws nigh as some portend,
So let them have a FINAL SPEND.

jorgheinz

Armstrongites have never wanted to acknowledge the...

2006-11-30T10:50:00.000+13:00

Armstrongites have never wanted to acknowledge the principle of overcoming evil with good, such as re-treading an ancient pagan celebration and making it Christian. They do not want to look at the current state of the celebration but they want to instead burrow back into history and discover a tainted genealogy and reject what is now because of what was back then. This, of course, is a form of legalism. They are unable to appreciate the substance because they are so pre-occupied with form - in this case, an ancient form.

This creates perplexing situations for some Armstrongites. At one of the WCG congregations I used to attend, the pastor and is wife did not wear wedding rings because they were pagan. I have been told by some Armstrongites that men's ties are pagan. And what about all the Armstrongite women who do not celebrate Christmas direction but becoming second hand participants by taking advantage of all of those Christmas sales? They rub elbows with Christmas shoppers and fuel the Christmas econmic engine with their dollars, but then claim that they are unsullied. As usual, the Armstrongites are debtors to perform the whole law, at least the law as they see it.

If we begin looking for pagan associations, they will be everywhere. But why should we let the pagans own our reality. We need to stake a claim and not waste our time examining ancient pedigrees and giving these connections more weight than what they deserve.

-- Neo

Dennis, Yes, the ancient nature-based roots are a...

2006-11-30T09:50:00.000+13:00

Dennis,

Yes, the ancient nature-based roots are always the most fascinating. The Virgin brings forth the sun on Dec. 25th. Xmas is most enjoyable to celebrate, from the nature perspective (and from the perspective of those of us who love the winter season), in the farther northerly latitudes, where the declination of the sun is especially important year-round. I have spent a few Xmases in England with my wife's family, and it just seems "natural" to be in northern Europe/Britain at that time of year!

Camfinch, we are birds of a feather. The Sun has ...

2006-11-30T07:47:00.000+13:00

Camfinch, we are birds of a feather. The Sun has always lain in the grave, so to speak the three days before Xmas, going neither further south, no appearing to come north again. And yet on the 25th, it is born again. No coincidence that the constellation at the most blessed position (noon) over the Xmas morning sunrise , is Virgo the Virgin. This most blessed lady brings for the Sun every Dec. 25th. Cheers!

United people are getting out in the snow, Their c...

2006-11-30T03:14:00.000+13:00

United people are getting out in the snow,
Their children playing games all aglow,
The Winter Solstice you see,
Is celebrated by the UCG,
But they call it something else so you won't know.

"If the argument that God revealed his days to man...

2006-11-30T02:57:00.000+13:00

"If the argument that God revealed his days to man from the time of Adam were true, then maybe the pagans paganized the true days and not the other way around."

That argument is not true. There isn't the slightest hint in the Bible that the annual festivals of Leviticus 23 were revealed to Adam, or to anyone at all prior to Moses. Nor was anyone ever commanded to celebrate those festivals but the Jews, the Israelites.

"Did Paul keep the days? Read acts."

Paul was Jewish. Paul also participated in Jewish vows. Read Acts. When was the last time an Armstrongist grew his hair long and then had his hair ritually shorn to offer his locks to a priest as a sacrifice?

"Did Polycarp or Polycrates? Read the fathers."

Not as far as we know. They did have a Christian Paschal observance on Nisan 15 (not Nisan 14 as is commonly believed), but nothing is known about them celebrating the Jewish feasts.

So where and when do we send our Holiday limericks...

2006-11-29T21:13:00.000+13:00

So where and when do we send our Holiday limericks, lines and lyrics in this year, Gavin?

Firstly, I did not like the GN 'cover' for the chr...

2006-11-29T18:42:00.000+13:00

Firstly, I did not like the GN 'cover' for the christmas article, it was a rehash of the old WCG ho, ho, hoax ad that was used on the TV and in the PT. For anyone trying to get the attention to teach others that Christmas is not scriptural by being offensive, well, they must really be out of it.

I cannot understand how a church that teaches love so much could continue the rash approach to something that many cherish, although it is not a proper holiday.

Comparing the Son of God to the Queen, mum and others though, Gavin, is off target to say the least.

In another area, God calls the Holy Days, his days. He was giving them to Israel, he had them to give. If the argument that God revealed his days to man from the time of Adam were true, then maybe the pagans paganized the true days and not the other way around. Even if the 'world' kept those days around the harvest, that in no way implies that God took pagan days, like the church did three hundred years after Jesus.

Did Paul keep the days? Read acts. Did Polycarp or Polycrates? Read the fathers.

Alan, you said you, "never understood the significance of holloween....being 'pagan.'" I guess the early church would agree to people dressing up as witches, ghosts, skeletons, wrecking things, having hell nights, begging for candy....what does any of that have to do with God?

Xmas, like any of the feast days are a reason to e...

2006-11-29T14:18:00.000+13:00

Xmas, like any of the feast days are a reason to eat, drink, and be merry. It is what mankind has always done!

Both started out as special days for the groups participating. But like anything, they evolve into something quite different from the original idea.

Xmas pagan? Yes.
Feast days pagan? Yes.

Everything is pagan on the earth! In the past, man used religion to explain away the unknown. As man evolved in the intellectual sphere, science began to explained what religion attempted to.

The whole idea of religion seems to be most laughable at best. Granted, everyone wants answers to the big questions that we all have, but having a faith in one idea and hard facts for the same, which are you to embrace?

The answer reveals much about the COG'ers and the intellectual processing that moderates their conclusions!

Kscribe.

For me, it's just a celebration of the winter sols...

2006-11-29T08:54:00.000+13:00

For me, it's just a celebration of the winter solstice here in the northern latitudes (summertime for Gavin!), the time of year I most enjoy. There is no religious meaning in it for me whatsoever, except as a celebration of nature and the cold season.

Well, I think Xmas (in today's society) obscures C...

2006-11-29T07:26:00.000+13:00

Well, I think Xmas (in today's society) obscures Christianity similar to how the law obscures grace. At least the law served a purpose and had a function, unlike the questionable celebration of Jesus birth. I believe Xmas clouds Jesus Christ by parading meaningless eye candy and obligatory gifting to the average American. Still falls into "vanity of vanities" for me.

What's the big deal? United isn't a real church, ...

2006-11-29T06:04:00.000+13:00

What's the big deal?

United isn't a real church, it just plays at being a church.

Actually the UCG is just a social club [albeit one which provides salary and pension for its Church Corporate Executives].

xMas is the time of year for the Winter Games in the UCG. Without it, United would have to fall back on just having the Feast of Tabernacles for the people to rise up and have fun....

I've never understood the significance of Hallowee...

2006-11-29T05:10:00.000+13:00

I've never understood the significance of Halloween and Christmas being "pagan". I grew up in the WCG on Saturday and a different protestant church on Sunday. (Two parents, different beliefs.) I heard all the rhetoric about paganism but all I knew was that Halloween allowed me to dress funny, act goofy, and score some candy. Christmas often meant visits with grandparents and presents and decorating a Christmas tree (although not in my parents' house). I can see no way that God can be unhappy with the spirit of those holidays as we celebrated them.

The COG argument to that, I think, is that my thoughts are not God's thoughts. Fair enough. Perhaps he has some (to me, not understandable) reason why I should not participate in those holidays. Does he hold my lack of understanding against me? It's interesting to me that COGers (at least in the past) portray God so much more viciously then he is portrayed in the Bible itself. Where did this come from? Read the Old Testament. For every plague and "kill every one of them" order there are pages of exhortation to justice and mercy, and enormous amounts of grace. As I've said in the past, I really don't think the God portrayed in COG tradition and theology matches the God in the Bible. It's a corrupted picture of God.

Then there are those of us who would just as well ...

2006-11-29T04:46:00.000+13:00

Then there are those of us who would just as well see Christmas taken back to its rich pagan roots, and leave off the Christian overlays entirely.

As a Catholic friend of mine says, we don't need t...

2006-11-29T03:15:00.000+13:00

As a Catholic friend of mine says, we don't need to just put Christ back in Christmas -- we need to put the Mass back in Christmas. ;-)