tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post4750386020108092951..comments2016-12-17T08:14:53.598+13:00Gavinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03060097218905523899noreply@blogger.comBlogger106125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-79432514835120633912007-02-09T07:57:00.000+13:002007-02-09T07:57:00.000+13:00Mssrs....I find this forum most interesting and if I dare say" intoxicating". I have been,for lack of a better discription considered a partner or supporter for 20 plus years.I support both the PCG and the LCG although of late I have given the majority of support to the LCG.<BR/>I love discourse,however,I fail to grasp the point of your arguments other than "Iam right and your are wrong".If you can't adhere to certain diciplines than leave the church organization you are affiliated with and either join another or start your own.TJbear59noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-90367526388190160362007-01-13T18:01:00.000+13:002007-01-13T18:01:00.000+13:00Libro,<br /><br />I take your point! I will henceforth try not to complain about anonymous postings...no matter how much it grates on my nerves.<br /><br />Take care and I truly hope all of you will continue to participate.<br /><br /><br />BTW, If the former WCG pastor of the Middletown NY church from the mid 80's to I guess around 1995 reads this website, I hope you are doing well and are in good health. I believe my father passed on my best wishes at the FOT in MD this past fall.Charlie Kierannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-17708136201395166482007-01-13T11:38:00.000+13:002007-01-13T11:38:00.000+13:00Hey, Gavin -- Thanks for a public spot to air our differences. Don't worry, we'll all be back when the next LCG crisis comes up.<br /><br /><i>The very fact that they are commenting means that COG leaders are losing their vise-like grip on controlling all aspects of the members lives.</i><br /><br />Charlie -- I think the key to our participation is that we're allowed to post anonymously ;-)Libronoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-65004149700357005542007-01-13T10:20:00.000+13:002007-01-13T10:20:00.000+13:00Gavin - I agree. The discussions on these blogs are greatly enhanced when members of an xcg post openly. The very fact that they are commenting means that COG leaders are losing their vise-like grip on controlling all aspects of the members lives. In the 70's and 80's all it took to keep the members in line was a simple command from the podium advising us not to read such and such or no longer have any contact with so and so. Those days started to wane in the early 90's and are just about gone now. The members are starting to think now...<br /><br />"A mind is a terrible thing to waste"Charlie Kierannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-9144280959572264202007-01-13T09:39:00.000+13:002007-01-13T09:39:00.000+13:00poorboy posted some new info on his page at www.poorboycomputers.com/ponder.htmlDixienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-45950295046067713322007-01-13T08:26:00.000+13:002007-01-13T08:26:00.000+13:00Hey guys, this has been an amazing thread - the longest yet on this blog with 100 plus comments.<br /><br />Maybe someone needs to put up a Yahoo group or something similar to allow the discussion to continue (this thread will slip off the end of the page soon.) Obviously LCG won't provide the forum, so perhaps someone here could do the honors. A specifically LCG Dialog/Reform/whatever discussion group. <br /><br />In case anyone wondered, my stats show that LCG.org in Charlotte has been a regular visitor here during this exchange (hi fellas!) so some of the HQ honchos have been tuned in. I appreciate the fact that Kinnear has posted too, that's got to be a healthy sign.<br /><br />Anyway, it's just a thought. Anyone who's interested in taking it further can drop me an email - otagosh@gmail.com - and I'd make sure the word got out.Gavinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03060097218905523899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-27604823061855185992007-01-13T01:42:00.000+13:002007-01-13T01:42:00.000+13:00lil john,<br />I think what gets most to start wondering off from the origional thread is that when anyone goes into anything "LCG" , much, much more comes to mind and thus is discussed . So much controversy, so little time.<br />anonymousAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-54862456083300325902007-01-12T20:10:00.000+13:002007-01-12T20:10:00.000+13:00Rod 2,<br />you are correct. I did say I wouldn't return on this matter until the audited accounts were published. I forgot I had made that point. My apologies.kinnearnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-33828990575938273352007-01-12T19:28:00.000+13:002007-01-12T19:28:00.000+13:00I was wondering if some one could tell me when LCG started using the Shut-ins, and those who did not go to the Feast of Tabernacles for whatever reason (health etc.),who received tapes from Charlotte, as being counted toward this last years 2006 FOT attendance?<br />I don't remember Bryce nor Carl McNair counting them. I do remember being told only those approved by GCG and then LCG could receive a few selected tapes for the FOT. When i had asked why, i was told by both, that many would not even bother going, if tapes were available.<br />This goes back from 1996 or 97 until a few years ago. It seems to me if they thought of those staying behind were not worthy of receiving tapes, then i would not think GCG or LCG would have counted them as was reported by LCG this year. That would make it appear a jump in attendance over 2005 .<br />anon 2Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-7192116386704868762007-01-12T17:57:00.000+13:002007-01-12T17:57:00.000+13:00Oh! My!, Kinnear,<br />You were addressing your comments to LCG Members on this site? That means lots of LCG members come to this blog. And why may i ask do you approach LCG members thru this blog? Is it because they won't get the info from LCG or is it you all are worried that maybe the "truth" will come out?<br />By the way i thought you were not commenting again until the official audit came out months from now!<br />rod 2Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-37802072231448348312007-01-12T16:22:00.000+13:002007-01-12T16:22:00.000+13:00Hey Gavin...<br />Me thinks this thread is on the verge of breaking some sort of record for comments. Too bad the original topic about Wally Smith having his telecast lifted by the WGN censors, disappeared amid these XCG-LCG wars. (where <i>is</i> my rod?)<br />When Gary returns and takes down his Christmas decorations, maybe he'll start a new thread on the same topic, eh? ;-)<br /><br />ljlil' johnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-90497146160753884122007-01-12T14:37:00.000+13:002007-01-12T14:37:00.000+13:00LCG members,<br />you will delight in the news in the Weekly Newsletter published today; even better than previously estimated. <br />And it's from men who are willing to put their name to it not these pathetic anonymous sources.kinnearnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-34734849719865038502007-01-12T13:59:00.000+13:002007-01-12T13:59:00.000+13:00Jim Hamby said:<br /><br />"Also the income IS DOWN." <br /><br />That is totally untrue. LCG income ended the year on 12/31/1006 at over 8% increase, and the trend is UP, not down! <br /><br />and...<br /><br />"LCG has lied in the past when they told about the Owino situation in Africa."<br /><br />Wrong again, it is Mr. Owino and Mr. Pack who made false claims. Very few went with Owino/Pack -- the vast majority stayed with us in LCG. The same goes for South Africa.<br /><br />Anonymous said... <br /><br />"The source of the info was someone very dear and close to RCM. Do you want to call that person a liar? They also work at headquarters."<br /><br />The person is either mistaken or lying--who they claim to be close to does not matter, neither does their working at HQ.<br /><br />"Do you think Meredith knows how much information his family members and top ministers are sharing? Is he really as disabled as some people are saying?"<br /><br />Mr. Meredith is far from disabled. At 76 years of age he works tirelessly fulltime, exercises daily, writes and speaks more than most (if not all) ministers in LCG and travels to visit the brethren as often as he can schedule, in addition to leading a wife and staying engaged in the lives of his children. I only hope to be so "disabled" if I reach 76.<br /><br />"A couple Sabbaths ago one of his top HQ ministers told a friend of mine to "be patient" about the problems at HQ. He said Meredith is now feeble and has to be handled very carefully, because he fears doing anything that will upset his wife or children. This HQ minister said they were "working things out" at HQ and even Meredith's own instability was on the agenda to be addressed eventually."<br /><br />If a person is frustrated or concerned, being patient and waiting on Christ is not a bad idea; I feel a great sense of relief after leaving something in God's hands. Again, Mr. Meredith is not disabled or "feeble"--a disabled or feeble 76 year old could not last more than a week or so keeping Mr. Meredith's schedule. See above. He is also not being "handled", he is the one leading. The instability accusation seems about as genuine as the ones about being disabled and feeble. The HQ ministers are loyal and supportive--the above accusation of disloyalty looks like a transparent attempt to sow distrust and division at LCG's HQ; it won't work. If anyone did have their own "agenda" against Mr. Meredith, it would fail (as was the case in 1998); we members support him and his team as we see him and them following Christ and doing the Work.<br /><br />"This came from one of Meredith's oldest supporters." <br /><br />Oh, no! More unnamed name-dropping; now I am really worried (cue nail-biting audio clip)--not! That is rubbish. The only agenda of the whole HQ ministry is obviously to move forward doing the Work, not running down the leading minister (that's your agenda--perhaps you became confused).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-89400947487037922702007-01-12T10:03:00.000+13:002007-01-12T10:03:00.000+13:00Jim, I will stand corrected on the Sunday services part. I don't know why HWA would have referred to the Sunday broadcast as "services of the Radio Church of God", and it does sound as if he's using that terminology in perhaps a deceptive manner. On the issue of charging for the magainzes, you are of course correct that he did charge for them, but he sent the subscriber their regular issue for free. Hair-splitting semantics, I guess!<br /><br />As to the validity of Herbert's beliefs and his changing doctrines, you're preaching to the choir. I in no way defend the career of HWA. Although your illustrations and historical details could prove invaluable to those who are still involved with Armstrongism.camfinchhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15687305972492937862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-79888489718442367722007-01-12T09:31:00.000+13:002007-01-12T09:31:00.000+13:00Camfinch,<br />Misconception?<br />I quote from page 10 of that PT "services of the Radio Church of God, broadcast each Sunday morning at 10." Now it does not say "Radio program of the Plain Truth at 10 on Sundays" it says "services".<br />Also he did charge for the pt,s even if it was the extras.<br />Now that you did bring it up. misconception or deception was the norm for WCG and the splinters. <br />A case in point would be since Valentines Day is coming up,anyone interested could bring up the articles by Dr. Hoeh in WCG and the Global and Living Churches of God's articles on the subject. Then check out the references quoted in the articles for accuracies especially the GCG and LCG article on the subject.(Hint- one reference to the 15th edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica)for starters. I mean how does the St. Valentines Day Massacre in Chicago in the 30's have ANYTHING to do with the subject of Valentines Day being pagan? You just might find a lot of baloney and misconception er.. deception going on there.<br />Now i stand by my comment about the "church service". If you want to Camfinch, look what happened when HWA had to write the membership years later belittling them about using the "broadcast" as a church service.<br />And as an added bonus, some may not know that HWA kept Pentecost on "3" different ways of counting over the years. Most know about Sunday and Monday, but some do not understand that in the 40's for some time he kept Sivan 6. One year he stated twice in a letter to the membership of it being on a Tuesday, with the date ,so not to have any confusion. He even repeated it at the end of the letter as well.<br />And as an added bonus, try checking out HWA's reasons for changing Pentecost to a Monday. Check for yourself to see if any of them panned out as accurate.They will be found in the membership letters written in lat January 1974 and the first two in February.<br />Now to really get you thinking, if you wish to use Raymond McNairs and GTA's excuse in 1974 in the Good News about the one version of the bible that had what they thought Leviticus 15 "mimochorat ha Shabbat"was stating, i would ask you to go to that source and read it (the American Bible), which is Catholic and the part left out by GTA and McNair was that the Catholic bible called it WhitSunday,and the references left out by WCG on the subject had stated the Jews passover and counting of the wavesheaf and the catholics "WhitSunday " were not the same.Thus of course it would agree with their agenda(WCG's). This is how HWA and those in position over the years subjected the Sheep to "misconceptional" process of attaining knowledge. Quote out of context, or just make up something - the dumb sheep will swallow anything as long as we place them under the "church Government' banner.<br />Then ask your self why HWA and RCM<br />over the years after the 1974 change of Pentecost, could not get the changes correct when they wrote or talked about them from the pulpit.<br />All of this is easy to check out. <br />I feel that if the info is out there and HWA himself said to not just check him out and what was written in the church literature, but to check out what you already believe, then why not do it?<br />jim hambyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-5947983442091286322007-01-12T06:05:00.000+13:002007-01-12T06:05:00.000+13:00"In it besides the setting dates, you find HWA charging money for the Plain Truth (pg 10).<br />You find him stating that his worship services were "each Sunday at 10" (pg. 10)."<br /><br />While that issue of PT is chock-full of failed predictions/prophecies, it is only fair to clear up the above quote so as to avoid misconceptions on anyone's part. The charging of money for copies of the PT was for extra copies; the subscriber received his/her regular copy for free. Extras were available for about four cents each, in quantities of ten, twenty-five, and one hundred. And the "Sunday at 10" does not refer to worship services, but to the day and time of the radio broadcast on KORE in Eugene, OR.camfinchhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15687305972492937862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-64171069396262482322007-01-12T04:52:00.000+13:002007-01-12T04:52:00.000+13:00Mr. League is still on the Council. He stated that he is.Dixienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-42541405949795978642007-01-12T03:50:00.000+13:002007-01-12T03:50:00.000+13:00I would like to add one more thing to my last post, and it is that the United Church of GOD DID indeed admit to it's members that HWA set dates and there were abuses from the ministry and church . They wrote it in their very first "World News in Prophecy" magazine. if there are others that admitted it, please let me know. <br />jim hambyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-6621187607510959552007-01-12T03:37:00.000+13:002007-01-12T03:37:00.000+13:00I went to the June-July 1934 Plain Truth and found HWA did set dates for the end time repeatedly in it. His lying about it clear up until he died is somewhat puzzling.After all he did set these dates as well as 1975. He must have thought he could pull the wool over the eyes of his dumb sheep. I can ,by reading this understand why the leaders in the various COG's would want to suppress this Plain Truth though. <br />In it besides the setting dates, you find HWA charging money for the Plain Truth (pg 10).<br />You find him stating that his worship services were "each Sunday at 10" (pg. 10). He does not believe in the "Place of safety" or even the relevence of Revelation Chapters 12,13 and 14(pg.7). And you cannot overlook in his own writing, the diagram for the end time on page 3.<br />In this P.T. he repeatedly relates to the prophecied "false prophet" in which after his date setting in this issue did not pan out, made him thus the "false prophet".<br />On page 6, HWA states who Germany is (and it ain't Assyria). and on the same page Russia had to be GOG, because of the meaning of the word is "nation of horsemen" and Russia has more horses than any other nation.<br />He spells out explicitely when the Tribulation started and the times nailed down for the events of the end time to come.<br />But to quote the last two paragraphs of this P.T. on page 10 we read:"Let us be willing to PROVE ALL THINGS --- all things we already believe, as well as all things brought out in the PLAIN TRUTH". Also stated later is "We ask all readers at all times to consider very carefully, very prayerfully, with open mind, and without predjudice, yet cautiously, the things written in nthe PLAIN TRUTH. If after this kind of careful,prayerful study, the Holy Spirit leads you to disagree, you will have been benefitted by the study neverless.<br />Remember, God says His people are destroyed for LACK OF KNOWLEDGE. It is not easy to UNlearn traditional teachings that are in error. Once in our minds, those teachings cling with a death-like grip."<br />With this all written, i can see why the powers in charge do not want this stuff brought to the attention of the sheep, and want to surpress . If only HWA had not lied about setting dates and such, maybe he could be somewhat credible. <br />What a con job, and to think many of us fell hook, line and sinker, for his false, failed prophecies and rendition of what the bible said.<br />jim hambyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-86051140862053390012007-01-11T14:56:00.000+13:002007-01-11T14:56:00.000+13:00Anonymous said... <br />"Bronco,...<br /><br />Sorry for the typo."<br /><br />Sorry I misunderstood what was really being said. I hope to see the Jim Hamby/anonymous issue (whatever it is) resolved as well. Accusations need to be resolved.<br /><br />FWIW I do not think the indie auditors for LCG would fabricate things and risk their reputation over LCG, so we await 2007 LCN. BTW, It seems to me that bryce/solomon et al didnt really take too many members with them, but Im guessing 8% is a little too high, but that the income is still probably up between 6% and 7%. 2007 will be very interesting for LCG.<br /><br />Broncobronconoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-86395606645434383152007-01-11T13:46:00.000+13:002007-01-11T13:46:00.000+13:00To the "anonymous" poster that lumped me with the inaccuracies i must state that, If on December 28, LCG knew what the income was, for the next three days, they had to have had a crystal ball. Income is down since Brcye, soloman etc left. I alluded to that part. I personally know of many that with held tithes since Bryce and company left (this being the last part of the year), awaiting to see what was going on. I received a phone call from some who stated they waited until Bryce started his own church to send in tithes. I was not talking about the whole year, so i don't know why you lumped me in with spreading false info. I just said ,if you would reread my posts, that with Bryce etc. leaving that Income was down. I did not say some of what you stated about me.<br />But again, i did ask in my posts if anyone had any info on new people tithing. I know what it is like to be wrongly accused and lied about. I had plenty of this done at the hands of LCG ministers and leadership.<br />But i found out that they are under a different kind of unbiblical governess, as they can bear false witness against someone, and they do not have to use the approach of "going to your brother privately if you have a problem with them".<br />Now please read again what i had written that set you off accusing me of spreading falsehoods. This way i can categorically discuss them on a civil front.<br />jim hambyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-44546296286085368872007-01-11T08:18:00.000+13:002007-01-11T08:18:00.000+13:00Bronco,<br /><br />When I wrote:<br /><br />"LCG's fiscal year is the calendar year--Jan 1 to Dec 31. As of Dec 31 2006 (as the 2006 audited financials for Jan 1 to Dec 31 will show when published in the LCG) the income was up over 8% as of Dec 31 2006." the last "LCG" should be "LCN"--refering to the Living Church News.<br /><br />Sorry for the typo.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-38163141250375863812007-01-11T08:16:00.000+13:002007-01-11T08:16:00.000+13:00Bronco,<br /><br />Friend, you are quoting erroneous "information" which was already correctly explained in one of Mr. Penman's posts shortly afterward. Either you are not getting it, or you are diliberately spreading a falshood. <br /><br />LCG's fiscal year is the calendar year--Jan 1 to Dec 31. As of Dec 31 2006 (as the 2006 audited financials for Jan 1 to Dec 31 will show when published in the LCG) the income was up over 8% as of Dec 31 2006. <br /><br />The statement "The finacial year runs different than the January to December that most would think of and thus the income since the FOT has indeed been down , especially since all the departures." is a total fabrication--its baloney. Go back and look at the previously-published audited financials in the Living Church News--the financial year is Jan 1 to Dec 31, period. <br /><br />The Anonymous (or their "source") who stated othewise is either misinformed, misunderstanding something he/she heard, or is deliberatly lying in order to attack LCG.<br /><br />LCG income as of Dec 31 2006 was up over 8% above Dec 31 2005 --that includes everything since Jan 1, 2006 (and obviously everything since September). <br /><br />The 2007 audited finacials for Jan 1 to Dec 31 2007 will contain the 2007 income figures. Again, it runs the same as calendar year, and always has.<br /><br />Statements to the contrary are false. SO THERE YOU HAVE IT - LCG's fiscal year follows the calendar year and its income is UP by over 8% as of Dec 31 2006!<br /><br />Those who say otherwise are either passing on misinformation someone else told them, or are deliberately not telling the truth.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-54322042829783147702007-01-11T07:08:00.000+13:002007-01-11T07:08:00.000+13:00"Great news! The income is not down--it is actually up; neither the Birmingham thing (Grace's accusations), nor Bryce/Solomon (recently embraced different doctrines) have had any financial impact at all--in fact LCG ended the year with a higher-than-expected income."-anonymous<br /><br />Dont forget to read this (a few posts before the above quote)<br /><br />""...the income statement quoted... was for..."Financial Year 2006" that does not reflect much since September. The finacial year runs different than the January to December that most would think of and thus the income since the FOT has indeed been down , especially since all the departures. The figures Anonomous states about income being down won't show up for over a year again in the audit report, as it was already part of 2007 .""<br /><br />SO THERE YOU HAVE IT! Assuming we are all telling the truth, the income is down, but will not show up until late 2007. <br /><br />Broncobronconoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-25000675509308695072007-01-11T06:31:00.000+13:002007-01-11T06:31:00.000+13:00Anonymous said:<br />"I have heard that a lot of people have stopped sending in tithes to Living especially after the situation in Birmingham Al about working on the Sabbath and the way Mr. Grace and his wife were treated. Does anyone know how the finances are? I have heard that income is way down. I am not just being nosey. I am a member."<br /><br />Great news! The income is not down--it is actually up; neither the Birmingham thing (Grace's accusations), nor Bryce/Solomon (recently embraced different doctrines) have had any financial impact at all--in fact LCG ended the year with a higher-than-expected income. Contrary to the falsehoods spread by Mr. Hamby and the "anon2" poster who claims to be getting information from inside LCG's HQ (anon2 or his source are either misinformed or choosing not to tell the truth). LCG ended the year with an over 8% increase in income, and virtually everyone at HQ knows it.<br /><br />Mr. Hamby, Anon2 and the other Anonymous poster (see next) are spreading inaccurate information (at best). <br /><br />Anonymous said:<br />"The source of the info was someone very dear and close to RCM. Do you want to call that person a liar? They also work at headquarters."<br /><br />That "source" either does not exist, does not know what he/she is talking about, or they are indeed a liar, regardless of who they claim to be "close to". Name droppers are not usually very trustworthy.<br /><br />So, fellow members of LCG, take heart--the income is UP! And those saying otherwise are simply misinformed or deliberately spreading falsehoods.<br /><br />Mr. League is on the Council. <br /><br />We should not be fooled by name-dropping antis who claim to have an inside "source" for juicy information--it is usually rubbish.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com