Comments on Ambassador Watch: Denis Michael Rohan - "The Lion King" - Forty Years On

Byker Bob wrote: "OK Leo. I guess you feel as...

2009-09-19T02:59:11.579+12:00

Byker Bob wrote:
"OK Leo. I guess you feel as if you've won then. Perhaps congratulations to you are in order, but my beliefs remain the same."

Now stop talking like that, Bob - our goal here is not to rack up "debating points" per se, but rather to see the clarity or illogic of various statements and arguments made in support of assorted metaphysical propositions. At least that’s the end result I’m aiming toward.

Therefore our actual objective should be the expanding of the accuracy of our understanding in these vital areas.

And I don't really expect you to ever admit error and actually change your perspective in any significant way - after all, you ARE a supernatural fundamentalist, and it's not in their nature to alter their God-inspired views of reality when confronted with evidence, logic or demonstrable facts disconfirming of their cherished ideology.

I think we pretty much all understand this.

But perhaps other readers who CAN detect the difference between a sound, rational, demonstrable argument and the mere assertions of wishful thinking will be benefited somewhat by the assorted discussions that take place on this blogsite.

And yes, you are indeed right about a lot of urban legends accumulating around Armstrongism. Remember the one that asserted that the famous Led Zeppelin song "Stairway to Heaven" was originally written as a poem about HWA and the WCG by an AC student, then sent to Jimmie Page, who made it into the song we baby-boomers far and wide all love?

Camfinch, that was me (Leonardo) who made that pos...

2009-09-18T09:07:59.513+12:00

Camfinch, that was me (Leonardo) who made that post about Charles Manson.

You are correct, and that's when the gal freaked out, when they eventually were apprehended - whenever that exact date was, as you say apparently later that year. I did not lookup the exact date when I wrote my post, which I should have.

So, my mistake.

But I thank you for calling me on it - as accuracy is something worth striving for.

Re: Charles Manson. Anything is possible, of cour...

2009-09-18T07:53:52.580+12:00

Re: Charles Manson.

Anything is possible, of course, but there are one heck of a lot of urban legends tied up in the Armstrong movement and Ambassador College.

Manson's habit pattern was to squat from the famous and near famous. There's additional material on him in the biographies covering the lives and career of the Beach Boys. Manson did actually live in Dennis Wilson's mansion, and he was not just a passive tenant. There were massive orgies, prodigious amounts of drugs ingested, and several of Dennis' cars were totally trashed by the guys in the cult. Manson was anything but low profile. He would have raised a ruckus and major suspicion in any neighborhood that he happened to be squatting in.

BB

OK Leo. I guess you feel as if you've won the...

2009-09-18T07:48:12.332+12:00

OK Leo. I guess you feel as if you've won then. Perhaps congratulations to you are in order, but my beliefs remain the same.

BB

Please pardon my reference to a comment left a cou...

2009-09-18T06:26:58.123+12:00

Please pardon my reference to a comment left a couple of days ago (I've been away from the AW site for awhile, and am just catching up). Someone had commented that a young woman they knew who worked at Pasadena HQ had possibly walked by Charles Manson shortly before the murders committed by his "family". As Manson was/is quite distinct in his looks (and indeed, as was noted, is quite short), it might well have been him. However, there is some problem with timing. Here is part of the earlier comment:
"OK, then just a short while later the story broke, and Charles Manson's infamous picture was plastered on the front page of virtually every newspaper in America. This was about late summer of 1969, just after the first lunar landing had taken place.

She told me that she about freaked out when she immediately recognized this image in all the newspapers as the SAME guy that had walked by her on the street just a week or so..."

The murders were committed during the second weekend of August 1969; I think the dates were the 8th and 9th, or very close. This was less than a month after the first lunar landing (July 20). But she would not have seen Manson's photo shortly after the murders. Manson and his murderous followers were not apprehended until near the end of 1969, and not for the killings, but for auto theft and associated crimes. It was only when Susan Atkins, imprisoned and awaiting trial for being an accessory to an earlier murder, that of Gary Hinman, "spilled the beans" to two other inmates at the female prison facility, that connections were finally made by the police between the Mansonites and the Tate/LaBianca killings. But again, it's quite possible that she did see Manson that summer day; but she didn't see his picture until about December of that year.

Well, Byker Bob, you certainly have explained your...

2009-09-18T03:50:24.342+12:00

Well, Byker Bob, you certainly have explained yourself quite plainly and unambigously in your above comment.

NOT!

The essential elements of your so-called "spiritual enlightenment" all arose during the Stone Age. This is indisputable, and clearly established in the historical record.

So really, who's calling the kettle black here?

You just keep carelessly ASSUMING your Deity's existence in your many comments - you have never ONCE attempted to prove it as a demonstrable factual reality.

Your primary error lays in the fact that you want to run with the big boys before you've even shown any of us that you can even crawl.

You have to start your case for the invisible, supernatural, biblical God at the beginning, not just magically jump to conclusions that you WISH to be true, but which you are incapable of showing as actually being true.

As it is, the one major premise that you built all your other claims on stands painfully undemonstrated.

Man, it's a good thing you never had ambitions of being a trial lawyer!

Leo, Hi Pot! This is the kettle calling. It is ...

2009-09-17T07:25:20.967+12:00

Leo,

Hi Pot! This is the kettle calling.

It is as it always was. Logic, facts, and reasoning never were the tools by which one could obtain or foment spiritual enlightenment. Though you personalized this, and attributed this process to me, and it really has universal application, you have articulated a basic truth. God does the work. He's got the keys to all of our minds, and He alone knows how to unlock them, and does this in His own perfect timing. There is absolutely nothing I can do to, as sales professionals might say, "educate you out of a mindset." That is not the way spiritual enlightenment is spawned. Otherwise, the educated people during Jesus' days would have come to Him by simply buying into His logic.

That is somewhat difficult for many who have come from the Armstrong movement to understand. The blueprint which they used for conversion was Mrs. Runcorn convincing Loma that the doctrines for COG-7 were "the way" via her superior knowledge of COG-7 eisegetics, and Loma "realizing that they were correct", and accepting them. It's yet more embedded and residual flawed methodology from the Armstrong movement.

BB

Byker Bob also said: "It's possible that ...

2009-09-16T07:07:59.203+12:00

Byker Bob also said:
"It's possible that you simply have nothing better to do..."

Oh, Bob, you little rascal - you just can't make any kind of serious comment without including a cutting little sarcastic ad hominem, can you?

Better be careful though, Bob, because your Saviour might not appreciate such a snotty approach to your fellow man, “For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." (Matt 12:37)

Actually, my life is busy enough, too busy at times - but thanks for your genuine Christian concern anyway.

In fact, sometimes I would indeed like to devote considerably MORE time responding here than I actually do, but, contrary to what you and your other fundamentalists occasionally like to impugn about me, I actually DO have a life, and other responsibilities that must be attended to.

It’s just that I sense that, as Walter Cronkite once pointed out, religious fundamentalism (of the kind you so unspectacularly try to push and defend here on this website) will most likely prove to be the greatest threat facing mankind as it moves out into the 21st century.

This is of some concern to me – and if you would actually use your reason, rather than suppressing it in the service of your bogus religious ideology, you would be too.

And so whatever little bit I can do to intelligently point out the nonsense of such fundamentalism, I gladly will.

Now, any other smart-ass little comments you'd like me to address, Bob?

Byker Bob wrote: "And yet, you and others kee...

2009-09-16T03:39:30.582+12:00

Byker Bob wrote:
"And yet, you and others keep responding as if my writings actually had merit."

Well, that's the entire POINT of a blog site, isn't it, to actually respond to each other's comments? At least that’s how I view blogsites.

So don't get too excited there, Bob! In general, I would say your responses, at least the ones attempting to support and add credence to supernatural religion, actually have very little merit, and those are usually what I respond to in order to point out that fact.

(Although, to be totally fair, Bob, I do find what you have to say on other subjects to sometimes be insightful and relevant. And who knows - if your basic theory is correct, about the various stages of recovery from COG’ism, then several years from now I may be arguing the same things you argue for now! I seriously doubt that I will, but I’m not as closed-minded as you and others often accuse me of being.)

What I try to continually point out in my responses is the utter paucity of your arguments in support of supernatural religion. Actually, I should more accurately use the word "assertions" not "arguments" - because your standard comments aren't arguments in the classic definition of the word, but rather unsupported claims that you seem completely unwilling or unable to flesh out and seriously develop or defend. The same goes for all your other fellow fundamentalist friends who comment here as well.

So please don't misinterpret my responding to you as somehow being evidence of the merit or quality of your comments on religious ideology, because it isn't. Let’s not descend to the level of the dictator of North Korea, who made a gleeful media circus out of his being visited and negotiated with by a former American President to secure the release of the two journalists found guilty of “spying” in his land of freedom and plenty. Such antics and shallow “victories” may be expected from Kim Jong-Il or Islamic militants, but not serious seekers of truth.

Sometimes, and in certain contexts, foolishness has to be responded to and countered. And I happen to think that this blogsite is one of those times and contexts.

"Byker Bob's usual powerful and tightly-r...

2009-09-15T10:30:04.364+12:00

"Byker Bob's usual powerful and tightly-reasoned rebuttal"

And yet, you and others keep responding as if my writings actually had merit. It's possible that you simply have nothing better to do, but sincere thanks for all of the notoriety and popularity anyway!

My prayers are with all who are trying to recover from the Armstrong problem, irrespective of their current spiritual conditions.

Blessings 2 U,
BB

"You are quite right in that there is nothing...

2009-09-15T07:58:11.825+12:00

"You are quite right in that there is nothing inherently evil in the vast majority of people. Most are neither bad nor saintly, they are just trying to live their lives as best they can and make the most of the circumstances they find themselves in. In other words, they are just like you and me."

Well, I'm glad you've at least moderated your view of the worldly, Larry. If GCI has, indeed, stopped preaching that all non-converted are under Satan's dominion, just this short of demon-possessed, then perhaps the church has made one positive change.

"Anyway, Jesus Himself said"

In the allegories to which you refer, Larry, the point the christological figure is making (in the narrative) is that we must liberate ourselves from just such a worldview as you espouse; the negative, all-consuming "under Satan's dominion" perspective.

The world is not posed on the brink of eschaton, Larry, neither is it inherently good or inherently bad; it merely IS, and how we individually choose to see it, is what limits or frees us, based on the individual realities we each choose to believe as true.

Larry wrote: "Anyway, Jesus Himself said that...

2009-09-15T07:55:29.302+12:00

Larry wrote:
"Anyway, Jesus Himself said that He came to proclaim liberty, to heal the sick, blind and brokenhearted, to open the prisons (and not all of them have walls), and to bring true joy and justice to a world desperate for it. That has nothing to do with “religion”, it is about life!"

Larry, it IS about religion, whether you like it or not - about YOUR indemonstrable religious assertions and their ACTUAL, in contrast to their ADVERTISED, results in daily life.

And would the "true joy and justice" you mention be the kind that is so apparent where Jesus is worshipped as the Son of God by HUGE majorities of people, like in the many countries of Central and South America?

Have you ever been there, Larry - not exactly a just and non-violent place to live - yet extremely religious in nature, the Roman Catholic version of the Christian religion to be more precise, but the supernatural basics of Christianity nonetheless as practiced on a wide scale.

As I've pointed out many times before on this website - and a claim that you fundamentalists have never been able to seriously rebutt (as opposed to ridicule) - many statistics (such as those from various organizations like the United Nations, etc.) show that the more secular nation's become in terms of their actual civic practice, the better living conditions their populations actually enjoy.

I know this may come as a surprise to you fundamentalists because it directly counters your view of the world, but this is the actual documented and objective record. And IF you are brave enough to see this argument developed in much greater detail with more real-life examples given, then consult the book "Letter to a Christian Nation" by Sam Harris.

Though it's a powerful read, it's only a very SHORT book, so don't worry, you won't have to expand your mind too much.

But give it a try - and then come back here and try to assert how the applied teachings of Christianity improve living conditions where Christianity is rampant.

Purple Hymnal, I don’t know what your life ...

2009-09-15T06:41:35.336+12:00

Purple Hymnal,
I don’t know what your life is like, but I do know what life is like for most people on this planet. You are quite right in that there is nothing inherently evil in the vast majority of people. Most are neither bad nor saintly, they are just trying to live their lives as best they can and make the most of the circumstances they find themselves in. In other words, they are just like you and me. They want security, good relationships, freedom, and happiness. There is nothing wrong with this.

Sadly however, the circumstances are not good. Most people live lives of quiet (or not so quiet) desperation, rolling with the blows that life delivers them……disease, poverty, ignorance, war, oppression, natural disasters, difficult interpersonal relationships, and whatever. Ultimately, death follows and they are forgotten. If they are really lucky, they may be remembered for 2 or 3 generations, but eventually their lives are not remembered at all, even by their progeny. THIS is the result of Satan’s influence and ruler ship.

Do you believe that what I have described above is what humans were designed and destined for? I certainly hope not. But, that is life for most people alive today and certainly has been throughout history. Even being wealthy doesn’t change all the circumstances. Money won’t buy good relationships, perfect health, or eternal life.

And how many in wealthy countries are still caught in economic slavery? From your posts, I have noted some suggestions of class warfare. You seem to think a six-figure income makes one rich. Boy do I have some news for you!

Anyway, Jesus Himself said that He came to proclaim liberty, to heal the sick, blind and brokenhearted, to open the prisons (and not all of them have walls), and to bring true joy and justice to a world desperate for it. That has nothing to do with “religion”, it is about life!

"PH said, "The world is not under Satan&...

2009-09-14T14:38:20.248+12:00

"PH said,
"The world is not under Satan's dominion, and is a vast panorama of opportunity, happiness and good, none of which has anything to do with the church."

"PH, apparently you haven't seen much of the world."

When I was in the church, I saw none of the world, Larry. After I left the church, I had the freedom to see the world, and it is as I attest above: A vast panorama of opportunity, happiness, and good, and good people, of ALL walks of life, within it.

Hmmm, isn't that what GCI wants its members to believe, Larry? How come you haven't gotten with the program yet, and still believe the old Armstrongist cliche "the world is under Satan's dominion"?

Oh, that's right, because GCI has only changed its doctrines externally, to appease the Christianizing cult-watchers. On the inside, as you so amply demonstrate, Larry, GCI is just the same as it always was. Teddy Johnston's fruitless begging for the tithe slaves to believe in trinitarianism notwithstanding.

With Matty's lunny rantings (he just HAS to b...

2009-09-13T10:57:09.683+12:00

With Matty's lunny rantings (he just HAS to be a fundamentlist Christian), gloating over the death and carnage to come at the hands of his much-anticipated One World Government, and Byker Bob's usual powerful and tightly-reasoned rebuttal, I guess this particular topic has pretty much run it's course!

Matty, Christians don't gloat over the events...

2009-09-13T08:46:21.820+12:00

Matty,

Christians don't gloat over the events which you itemized! We also don't fear them. We realize that God is in charge, and trust Him to bring us through them.

Many of us do not expect a "place of safety", either. That's "save own your ass" Christianity, and the concept does not lend itself to sincerity.

If things unfold as you enumerated them, they will have nothing at all to do with HWA. He already proved that he was just guessing, by setting and exploiting dates. Whatever happens, we Christians will be trusting God, and perhaps remaining behind at ground zero, helping our neighbors and the unbelievers in understanding and dealing with it all.

BB

Hi, wow, thanks for the great information about Ar...

2009-09-13T03:00:06.555+12:00

Hi, wow, thanks for the great information about Armstronism. I always wondered who put the bible together. So now when I read the scriptures about keeping the Sabbath and holy days, it was this man and his cult that got these strange ideas about how we should live our lives. Lets hope the ccoming swine flu and economic meltdown hits within the next few months, maybe then you will return from your stupidity. Prepare to meet your Creator, when you see these things happening don't panic it's just old Herbert messy about.
google if you dare. Jane burgermeister the swine flu case. also Alex janes prison planet. And Alan Watt cutting through the matrix. Have a nice day! Here comes the new world order.Herbert was just forty years too early in his interpretation of the scriptures. But now at last it's time to wake up, if I were you I would work at getting right with your Creator while you still have the time!

Anonymous wrote: "It is refreshing to visit t...

2009-09-12T07:56:34.818+12:00

Anonymous wrote:
"It is refreshing to visit this site, so I can visualize just how corrupt men become when they reject God's spirit. Were any of you ever really converted?"

Oh, and remember, folks: the person who made the above comment is one of God's specially-selected and hand-chosen servants, destined to RULE over the nations with a rod of iron in the coming wonderful World of Tomorrow.

You see what a delightful time of peace and love mankind has to look forward to!

And then this guy actually dares to wonder whether the rest of us were "ever really converted?!"

I'll tell you, you "truly converted" Christians never disappoint, do you?

Anonymous wrote: "It is refreshing to visit t...

2009-09-12T07:34:01.810+12:00

Anonymous wrote:
"It is refreshing to visit this site, so I can visualize just how corrupt men become when they reject God's spirit."

Are you serious? You actually find it REFRESHING to "visualize how corrupt men become when they reject God's spirit?"

Is this an expression of the Christian agape love we hear your kind preach about so often?

Have you never read Proverbs 24:17…

"Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, And do not let your heart be glad when he stumbles."

You are one sick person, Dude - and a warning of what happens when folks buy into your corrupt religious beliefs.

PH said, "The world is not under Satan's ...

2009-09-12T04:29:49.552+12:00

PH said,
"The world is not under Satan's dominion, and is a vast panorama of opportunity, happiness and good, none of which has anything to do with the church."

PH, apparently you haven't seen much of the world.

Anonymous said... "It is refreshing to visit...

2009-09-11T14:36:49.272+12:00

Anonymous said...

"It is refreshing to visit this site, so I can visualize just how corrupt men become when they reject God's spirit. Were any of you ever really converted? I would hope not."

Ahhhh, I was waiting for that. Thanks for not disappointing. For myself, I'd say "never converted" as I refused to drink all the kool-aid even after baptisim.

However, in case you think I'm just justifying things in case you people turn out to be right, I assure you most seriously that if all the insane nonsense you believe turns out to be true, I won't be able to jump into the Lake O'Fire fast enough.

I couldn't imagine living in an eternity with you lot to put up with.

"With free literature, GTA on the air everywh...

2009-09-11T14:17:57.672+12:00

"With free literature, GTA on the air everywhere, great performers on the Ambassador Auditorium stage, how could one not be aware of the WCG and AC?"

And the delusion persists. Clearly Anon 9:43 is still on the inside.

Reality check for you, Anon 9:43: Of all of the many many many people in "the world" who I have interacted with, since the church and I parted ways in 1996, NOT ONE of them recognized, nor did they even know, the name of the church when I told them (if they asked).

These have included Pagans, Quakers, atheists, Christians, Catholics, Anglicans, Hindus, Muslims, and Sikhs.

The only person in the world who has ever, ever mentioned the church (or even knew anything about it) was a philosophy professor, who was doing a thesis on totalitarian systems, and how they impede individual ethical and moral codes. This was ca. 2002 I believe.

(Oh, and one Gnostic priest, but he had a conspiracy theorist buddy who was in, so that doesn't count.)

The fact of the matter is, hardly anyone outside of the church watched the telecast, or had anything more than a passing interest in the PT (the subscription numbers were inflated). Even fewer numbers than that, recognized the name of the church, even at the height of its popularity before HWA died.

Step outside the bubble Anon 9:43. The world is not under Satan's dominion, and is a vast panorama of opportunity, happiness and good, none of which has anything to do with the church. The church is not nearly as important as it wants you to believe it is.

That's part of the illusion, and they're not even doing a good job with that, these days. The Branch Flurridian compound, UCG's "Go Ye Therefore Into All The World" and Spanky's little mouthpiece Thiel, notwithstanding.

Anon 5:41, you say, "It is refreshing to visi...

2009-09-11T14:09:04.422+12:00

Anon 5:41, you say, "It is refreshing to visit this site, so I can visualize just how corrupt men become when they reject God's spirit." I disagree.

I don't knowingly reject God's spirit -- but in 40 years of life at HQ, one had to cope with corruption at the highest levels of "spiritual" leadership, and STILL manage to look past the sometimes gross misconduct to the impeccable standards of a Biblical lifestyle.

It takes serious application of God's spirit to glean spiritual riches from a sermon by a man who just got caught porking a coed in his executive office -- or to hear from a devastated babysitter of her rape by the same man. These were the obstacles to holiness that we had to ignore just to stay out of executive gunsights.

In this blog you read the unfettered responses of honest men struggling with the aftermath of striving to live by godly principles often taught by gifted men with vile flaws.

In this picture, who was/is rejecting God's spirit?

Because I have atheistic friends, I find encouragement in statements like Byker Bob's candid response to Dankenbring's YouTube offerings, AW, Sept. 10, 7:04: "Godlessness seems like freedom at first glance, but turns into one's worst nightmare with time. God is just totally awesome for allowing His children to check it out, though!" It wouldn't hurt to read the whole thing.

I think that God's spirit is too-easily shackled in environments less free than this one. Putting on a holy face when pressured by corrupt leaders to manifest spiritual fruits, must give the Holy Spirit migranes.

A wise man once said it is fine to love and obey God, or to rage at Him, disagree with Him, be completely appalled and disgusted with Him -- but one ignores Him at his peril. I only partially agree.

As Byker Bob so articulately explained, we also need space to disbelieve. "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." If I were God, I would kvell over those who might like to but couldn't believe I exist. There can be no gain in sucking up to the Creator.

Anyone who is honest will eventually come to greater understanding, and must be given ample space and time to do so at his or her own speed. Does the Holy Spirit coerce? Who then can say God's Spirit is not alive and well in this place?

Anonymous said... It is refreshing to visit this s...

2009-09-11T13:55:23.345+12:00

Anonymous said...
It is refreshing to visit this site, so I can visualize just how corrupt men become when they reject God's spirit. Were any of you ever really converted? I would hope not..

Yes, unfortunately most were so converted as to be brainwashed by the Armstrong cult. So brainwashed, in fact, that they gave up all they had to the "end time work". Next question...

Anonymous 5:41, what do you mean by "reject G...

2009-09-11T11:46:15.098+12:00

Anonymous 5:41, what do you mean by "reject God's Spirit"? How would you personally determine whether or not an individual actually has God's Spirit?

I know we have posters here who do not believe that God exists in any form, but I have not noticed that they were particularly corrupt. Most of them actually do practice Christian values in a secular manner, although they would disagree with the usage of the label "Christian" to describe their values.

We also have posters who no longer subscribe to WCG definitions of God's spirit, or utilize WCG guidelines for discerning how the HS works. I fall into this general category, as I no longer believe that the HS is simply an impersonal power which helps us to keep the Law of Moses. I also don't believe that you recognize a person with the HS because that person will always be drawn to the sabbath, holy days, clean meats, and tithing to the ACOGs. I believe that you recognize one with God's Spirit because he or she naturally flows with the fruits described in the NT, and a Christlike love for all human beings, not just individuals who are in the WCG. And I believe that a true Christian obeys the NC commands which Christ gave in Matt. 5, rather than attempting to explain that these commands are actually the Law of Moses reexpressed in deeper or different terms.

I assume from your remarks that you are a member of one of the ACOG splinters, or perhaps a member of one of the unaligned Livingroom Churches of God. If so, do you believe in extremely intrusive authority, as one of the "restored" truths? Do you believe that the ACOGs should continue to fake the gift of prophecy, and to use that fakery as their primary evangelistic tool, when it is obvious that they are in reality just guessing as HWA did? Do you believe that the ultimate indicator that one has the HS is whether one recognizes that HWA was God's chosen apostle for the end times? If so, I believe you may be in for some unpleasant awakenings in the future.

You may want to pray about this, and perhaps do a bit more research, exploring this topic more deeply, expanding upon the self-serving brainwashing normally provided by Armstrongite ministers. Try reading the epistles to the Romans and Galatians, and the gospel of John with your Armstrongite filters switched off. Explore and evaluate what clergy members from outside of Armstrongism have to say on these topics. There are many good books at Berean Bookstore, Barnes and Noble, or Borders. Remember, your mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open!

BB