Comments on Ambassador Watch: Joe Jr. - The leopard's spots remain

BB's posting was the first on this thread. I reme...

2008-08-24T04:26:00.000+12:00

BB's posting was the first on this thread. I remember it being so

No posts have been removed since moderation. Mayb...

2008-08-22T06:26:00.000+12:00

No posts have been removed since moderation. Maybe you got the threads confused.

byker bob was not the first post on this thread. ...

2008-08-22T00:42:00.000+12:00

byker bob was not the first post on this thread. Why did you remove the earlier posts. Do you have an agenda?

Stephanie Tkach's beer cruising blog entry, Anne H...

2008-08-20T12:59:00.000+12:00

Stephanie Tkach's beer cruising blog entry, Anne Hanna's JLF comments about it and Tkach's new video are posted at AmbassadorReports

Hmmm. Try this link for Junior's kid's tale of hor...

2008-08-20T00:24:00.000+12:00

Hmmm. Try this link for Junior's kid's tale of horrifying privilege......

"AnnMarie, it looks like Junior's little princess ...

2008-08-19T22:54:00.000+12:00

"AnnMarie, it looks like Junior's little princess (They called her APPLE?! Wow.) has since expurgated the posts/comments to which you refer."

No, they're still there. Scroll to the bottom of the page, click on 'previous 5' and wade through all the teenage verbiage.

Sorry I didn't give better directions the first time.

AnnMarie

AnnMarie, it looks like Junior's little princess (...

2008-08-19T15:59:00.000+12:00

AnnMarie, it looks like Junior's little princess (They called her APPLE?! Wow.) has since expurgated the posts/comments to which you refer.

From PCG's Statement of Beliefs:"Ministers are to ...

2008-08-18T15:46:00.000+12:00

From PCG's Statement of Beliefs:

"Ministers are to be true servants to the membership and therefore must avoid extremes in lifestyle and lavishness."

For avoiding extremes, they seem to be doing very well at the low end...

Over on Mark Tabladillo’s JLF forum, a contributor...

2008-08-18T11:28:00.000+12:00

Over on Mark Tabladillo’s JLF forum, a contributor posted a link from the blog of Joey’s daughter, Stephanie, written several years ago, following a cruise (presumably wcg) with stops along the northeastern coast of the USA and Canada. Stephanie opines on the fact that on most of the trips she’s been on with her dad, he daily insists on finding pubs or other similar establishments to sample the beverages. In one of her entries, she said he drug the group along for nearly an hour and a half, searching for one particular pub, which he finally found. Is Joey a closet alcoholic? Makes one wonder.

Looks like Joey, Jr., is making good use of the tithepayers' donations - not!

Here's the posted link, and I did have to search a bit to find Stephanie's comments on the cruise trip.

http://www.xanga.com/the_one_and_only_apple?nextdate=9%2f25%2f2004+17%3a39%3a56.767&direction=

AnnMarie95

Gavin, you wrote, "But then you make an amazing cl...

2008-08-18T06:13:00.000+12:00

Gavin, you wrote, "But then you make an amazing claim: "Late in life he made a huge repentance, his utmost -- but there was no longer time enough to heal all the wrongs." What evidence do you have for that? ... How was it different at the end? What do you know that the rest of us don't?

In terms of church experience I only know what you know. HWA only knew enough to return to what he had learned and taught. He had allowed himself to drift from his own teachings.

After barely surviving his heart failure in Tucson, he was frightened into getting himself and the church "back on track." He did this to the best of his ability, but the track itself needed, and still needs, a major overhaul, something it would have taken another lifetime or two to accomplish.

Meredith and Hoeh saw Armstrong as a new Moses, answering only to God. But they ignored Joshua, Moses' successor, who had to consult Aaron for God's will. They ignored the secession of the northern tribes, initiated by the Ephraimite tribe, who possessed the birthright sovereignty and responsibility.

There is no end to what they and Mr. Armstrong ignored, even in the teachings of Jesus. This huge spiritual deficit led to my statement that there wasn't time enough (in his lifetime) for complete repentance. He only did what he knew how to do; it wasn't nearly enough -- but it was his personal best.

His personal best has become the inheritance of his spiritual beneficiaries, mainly the spinoffs, who are essentially maintaining the earlier status quo.

'...COG ministers aren't called "reverend," but th...

2008-08-18T04:54:00.000+12:00

'...COG ministers aren't called "reverend," but they are certainly considered a Divine cut above the laity, which is an obscene falsehood. Therefore official doctrinal opinions hold sway no matter their idiocy and potential for harm. There is no Godly reason or precedent for tolerating that, yet congregants feel that God requires it of them because they've been taught as much...'

The principles of leadership in use in CGOM (the Outreach Ministries) are outlined in the comprehensive article, Church Leadership, at www.cgom.org in the Articles sector

Gavin,That last little screed smacks of a thinly-v...

2008-08-17T16:39:00.000+12:00

Gavin,

That last little screed smacks of a thinly-veiled "blame-the-victim" mentality, if you ask me.

Anonymous: As you seem to indicate, dictatorship i...

2008-08-17T15:52:00.000+12:00

Anonymous: As you seem to indicate, dictatorship is still dictatorship even when its "benevolent." And what tyrant didn't consider himself a benevolent figure bravely taking the hard decisions?

But then you make an amazing claim: "Late in life he made a huge repentance, his utmost -- but there was no longer time enough to heal all the wrongs."

What evidence do you have for that? Armstrong talked a lot about repentance from his earliest days of ministry - of seeing himself as a used up hunk of useless junk, but the fruits of repentance just never seemed to follow. Dollars, yes; humilty, no.
How was it different at the end? What do you know that the rest of us don't?

Reflecting on Byker Bob's words, it deeply saddens...

2008-08-17T15:39:00.000+12:00

Reflecting on Byker Bob's words, it deeply saddens me to see people who are eager to live Godly submitting themselves to autocratic forms of church government. The forms might work under those rare leaders who insist on humbly serving their flocks, but those are unusual men. Judging by testimonies one reads here, lordship must have been a huge temptation for youngsters or small minded men with churches to pastor.

The family of Israel had permission to set up a king, but only on their own initiative; thus the people embodied the ultimate sovereignty and the king was forbidden to lord it over his brothers. His throne existed only by insistence of the governed, and he was to serve the kingdom -- most definitely a two-way street.

When David's grandson got too big for his britches, after the kingdom and dynasty had been established, God took the kingdom away from him vis-a-vie the initiative of a responsible tribe. They might have endured the new twit, but justly chose not to. They went on to do wrong after rejecting Rehoboam, but that was another matter altogether.

It was appropriate for the people to establish parameters to ensure that the new king would not repeat the inequities of his father. When the new king refused, the people had the right and responsibility to abandon the offending crown and establish a new government. This action was bound on earth and supported from heaven through the voice of a prophet.

LCG, UCG and others took similar action, or felt that they did, but virtually all of them, aside from the lunatic fringe, more or less stopped progressing intellectually to maintain a status quo at that point. Much more still needs fixing.

Inept ministers, made so by inept training, rely on ordination certificates and positions in the heirarchy rather than argue teachings to logical conclusions. No one should have to endure that nonsense. Once again God's people are undone by a lack of knowledge.

COG ministers aren't called "reverend," but they are certainly considered a Divine cut above the laity, which is an obscene falsehood. Therefore official doctrinal opinions hold sway no matter their idiocy and potential for harm. There is no Godly reason or precedent for tolerating that, yet congregants feel that God requires it of them because they've been taught as much.

Herbert Armstrong began with amazing promise, but he let the needs of "the Work," his pride, his loneliness and his carnality do him in. Late in life he made a huge repentance, his utmost -- but there was no longer time enough to heal all the wrongs. Too much needed serious fixing.

I don't for a second think he was a "con man." He had all the necessary gifts to be one, but I personally found him profoundly sincere and open, probably too open, about everything, both good and bad. And he was stubborn -- but he believed what he taught.

By the end of his life, there was neither time nor inclination to repair all that was wrong -- and not one of his beneficiaries, whether the new WCG or the spinoffs, is showing much promise at fixing things.

It's a very sad story, indeed. The story of a potentially great leader introducing fascinating new concepts, but also inadvertently misleading, sometimes rejecting desperately necessary doctrinal improvements out of hand. And there were the naive people, eager to live Godly, taking it all in without sufficient knowledge, confidence, courage, initiative or wisdom to properly accept truth or reject error. How does this happen in a free country, particularly when congregants are required to test and prove all things? Does the leadership even allow this level of integrity?

One should learn well from experiences like this.

"...point out one major flaw in someone's belief s...

2008-08-16T12:48:00.000+12:00

"...point out one major flaw in someone's belief system [and] they take it personally!"

- - Gordon Shumway

What's wrong with waiting for God to correct his c...

2008-08-16T04:38:00.000+12:00

What's wrong with waiting for God to correct his chosen leaders is the same thing that's wrong with:

Romans 13 1 Everyone MUST SUBMIT himself to the governing authorities, for there is NO AUTHORITY except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established BY GOD. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against WHAT GOD HAS INSTITUTED, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers HOLD TERROR FOR THOSE THAT DO RIGHT, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you."

Both concepts are BS. There would have been no America if we abided by this and Hitler would have been God's chosen to rule for the good of the people. And God never corrects his chosen rulers. Dying of old age does not count.

These comments were added to demand obdience of christians to Rome , or they might kill you. However, it was always great in the OT to mock and blame the jews, because they could not hurt you. Never annoy those that can hurt you badly.

Hey Larry,At least you're allowed to watch The Exo...

2008-08-16T02:39:00.000+12:00

Hey Larry,

At least you're allowed to watch The Exorcist. I never was. Still haven't seen it, to this day.

Larry,Not everyone who posts here has lost their f...

2008-08-16T01:07:00.000+12:00

Larry,

Not everyone who posts here has lost their faith in God, but most of us has lost faith in an organization that proclaimed itself the only true representative of God on earth.

We've re examined the evidence from HWA's own writings through the Tkach era behaviors. The whole history of such is rife with double talk, manipulation and at times down right deception. (And in that statement I'm only considering those things which can be established from their own records, not the observations of others)

I'm not sure how to express this and I'm likely not to get it right but for myself, prior to going through this process, I latched on the conceptual part of the teachings unique to HWA/WCG without examining the sources or end results. Forgive me if I'm mistaken but you seem to be doing the same.

Re-examining these things has been painful, but rewarding.

Purple Hymnal, What is depressing is the evidence...

2008-08-15T20:01:00.000+12:00

Purple Hymnal,
What is depressing is the evidence here that some have truly, truly lost their faith completely! This is somewhat reminiscent of the trial suffered by the young priest in "The Exorcist", and we all know how that turned out. (yes, it is fiction, but still applicable)

Larry's "waiting for gawd" comment is the most dep...

2008-08-15T13:10:00.000+12:00

Larry's "waiting for gawd" comment is the most depressing thing I have ever read on any of the ex-member boards, blogs or forums. It's more depressing than the suicide list, and I thought nothing could get more depressing than that.

"It will come back on the bastards... in this life...

2008-08-15T13:05:00.000+12:00

"It will come back on the bastards... in this life and the next."

No it won't. That's the part that really sucks. :-(

Larry preacheth:"Whatever happened to the understa...

2008-08-15T13:04:00.000+12:00

Larry preacheth:
"Whatever happened to the understanding that it is GOD's responsibility and prerogative to deal with His people as He sees fit and on His timetable?"

This is fallacious reasoning and is classic response by the leadership of WCG and all its splinters. It is based on the erroneous assumption that WCG and its leadership and attendees are God's people. WRONG!!!

God's appointed leaders do not defraud, lie, cheat, steal or do many of the other things that are, and have been an everyday occurance in the cogs. And God's people don't allow themselves to be victims of such acts when abundant proof is made available to them.

When people delude themselves into thinking they are God's chosen and then continually make excuses for obvious evil they make it abundantly clear that they, and the ones they are covering for, are any but God's people.

""The blame for your problems should be focused wh...

2008-08-15T13:02:00.000+12:00

""The blame for your problems should be focused where it belongs, on Satan the Devil."

Yes, Larry, I do focus my blame there --- taking into consideration the fact that the Demiurge (Satan or Saklas or Samael if you prefer) is the deity that the Worldwide Church of God worships.

"I challenge all to re-examine the original doctri...

2008-08-15T12:58:00.000+12:00

"I challenge all to re-examine the original doctrines of the Church of God without prejudice."

That's what we're all doing here, anon. So sorry you don't like our conclusions.

"Whatever happened to the understanding that it is...

2008-08-15T12:32:00.000+12:00

"Whatever happened to the understanding that it is GOD's responsibility and prerogative to deal with His people as He sees fit and on His timetable?"

What happened is that it was abandoned as unworkable since God never seems to get around to making anything right. The moment you hear a minister say, "God corrects me..."

Run! It's pure BS