Comments on Ambassador Watch: Bobby Fischer and the WCG

Would not Greek be the (elite language, todays Fre...

2016-06-25T19:03:44.955+12:00

Would not Greek be the (elite language, todays French) of the day? Or was it the Lingua Franca. In any case he was a polyglot. The remark strikes me as coming from an American adressing a European person in Prague. Then saying, wow you speak English so well. The officer was just being polite and impressed at the same time.
As commander in chief I would not expect a rebel and tent maker a polyglot.

I believe Paul was easily recognizable as a Mediterenean and perhaps a Jew, however he was continually asserting his authority by stating "I am from no special town."
"I am a Jew from Gamaliel's school." Not that people would not recognize his appearance.

Are the Benjaminites Norwegian??? I thought theory had it parts of that tribe travelled as Spartans to the South of France with the Rubenites coming as Celts? Can't remember, long time ago. I should read my eighties "Holy Grail, holy blood again."

nck

There is an account in the NT concerning the Apost...

2016-06-24T16:18:34.375+12:00

There is an account in the NT concerning the Apostle Paul that the BI proponents need to explain. Paul speaks with a Roman tribune (Acts 21:37. The tribune, going on Paul's appearance, asks Paul if he speaks Greek. Then he ask if he is not a North African (Egyptian). In the text following Paul stands before other Jews and must identify himself as a Jew. Paul was dark like the Greeks and North Africans. So much so that the Jews did not immediately recognize him as a Jew. But Paul was a good choice to go to the Gentiles because he looked like one.

The Roman tribune would be familiar with the people of Europe. He would know what a Northman looked like. But Paul was a Benjamite and the BI bunch identifies the Benjamites as the Norwegians. But Paul did not look like a Scandinavian. There are ways of explaining this but the most credible and simplest (Occam's Razor) is that the Benjamites were not the Scandinavians that the BI theory requires.

The Bible itself celebrates the familial ties of t...

2016-06-23T12:59:12.297+12:00

The Bible itself celebrates the familial ties of the Jews or Israelites, and the Arabic people. If you study the different groups of Canaanites that the Israelites of Joshua's time were commanded to pass around and not make war with, you find ancestors such as Ishmael, Esau, Lot, and other minor characters who were associated with Abraham. So, yes, white English speaking peoples would need to share in the genetic heritage of the Arabs for British Israelism to be true, but they do not, except for statistically negligible influence from occasional intermarriage.

ACOG "scholars" have also invoked the Hyksos, white invaders of Egypt who formed the Egyptian 15th Dynasty of Egypt in about 1650 BC, (Moses is theorized as having been born in 1526 BC). The last Hyksos king was expelled from Egypt in 1550 BC. These COGlodytes have theorized that the Hyksos were actually the Israelites. The Hyksos were white Asians, not Canaanites like the Israelites.

People will grasp at just about any straw to make the Israelites white, and the ancestors of West Europeans, but at some point in the history or logic, all of their theories fall apart.

BB

I see. I'm trying to circumvent the kkk case. ...

2016-06-22T17:57:35.613+12:00

I see.
I'm trying to circumvent the kkk case. Since Khazar theory is the missing link between the benign US&BIP (making the mercantile case for 19th century dominance) and the racial (oregonian kkk brand.) In the same library both books could spawn the McVeighs of this world.

So ancient Canaanites are J.
That is better evidence than my neighbor in Queens has a book that he is descended from Abraham he is J so Abraham must have been J.

If the Arabs are J. Then I must lean more to a one state solution in Israel rather than a two state solution. Even US foreign policy is moving in a direction that Israel is rather a liability in US foreign relations than an asset. (Starting with the neocons,not the supposed Islamic Obama).

As I recall Khazars are of Turkish (asian plains) descent. Abraham was of Turkish descent also but more the mountainous region I guess. (Haran)

I will not take this argument further than suffice to say that I find those dark skinned mountain peoples like the Azerbaidjanis attractive people, sometimes reddish or dark hair with blue eyes. And I admire the ladies in those rugged circumstances keeping up their appearances between the kalashnikovs.

nck

NCK: There are studies that identify the ancient ...

2016-06-22T14:49:45.108+12:00

NCK: There are studies that identify the ancient Canaanites with haplogroup J. There are jewish families that have lived in Palestine for thousands of years that are haplogroup J. Armstrongites claim to believe that the Arabs are descendants of Abraham through Ishmael and yet the Arabs are haplogroup J. I have not seen a study where someone has opened up an ancient Jewish grave and testing the DNA. But the circumstantial evidence is convincing.

People have moved around since 70 AD but not enough nor early enough to support the idea that the Brits are descended from Abraham. Abraham, circumstantially was haplogroup J. The Brits who began to migrate into western Europe after the last Ice Age - perhaps out of an Iberian Refuge - are not remotely connected to Abraham.

The New Yorkers are Khazars? Not only did I not mean to say that, I did not say that. I recognize you have trouble with English.

NEO Does that study compare "ancient" f...

2016-06-22T05:53:42.929+12:00

NEO

Does that study compare "ancient" finds with modern inhabitants?

This people has moved around quite a bit since 70 AD.

Reading what you wrote I read that the Arabs are the original Cohen Jews, the Jews moved to the USA as Anglo Saxons, whereas most New Yorkers are Khazars.

I'm sure you didn't mean to say that. Have 1000 BC bones from Jerusalem been compared with modern New York bones? Comparisons with a tribe that moved in and out and than say they are original are useless. I have no standpoint in this. Just curious. Otherwise I would say, let the Arabs (J) take Israel as rightful inheritants reading your short piece.

nck

Byker: When I first encountered the idea of the &...

2016-06-22T02:51:54.885+12:00

Byker: When I first encountered the idea of the "Jewish Imposters", a book entitled "The Thirteenth Tribe" by Koestler was cited as support by a Big Sandy Faculty member. I read this book and found it interesting but dubious. Since, I have seen an article in Commentary Magazine that espouses the same history. The Jewish writer of the article stated he was proud of his Khazar ancestry. So this idea must not be that nefarious to the Jewish community. The fact is, there is a significant R1a haplogroup signal among the Ashkenazi. Khazars? Just plain old intermarriage?

For the BI crowd, the Cohen Modal haplotype is a marker of the lineage of Aaron. Aaron was haplogroup J. It is impossible that his father, Levi, and uncles were of a different heplogroup than J. Hence the large presence of haplogroup J among Jews and other Middle Easterners. The Arabs, cousins to the Israelites, are also predominantly haplogroup J (and nobody is accusing the Arabs of being imposters). I know of no studies that postulate a large presence of haplogroup R1b (British, Western Europeans, Iberians)in the ancient Middle East.

The idea that the modern day Jews are imposters and that the real Jews are somewhere on the norther American continent among the British derived peoples (as asserted by this same faculty member) is ignorant, absurd and diabolical.

We all were just pawns in game that served the fal...

2016-06-21T02:13:09.040+12:00

We all were just pawns in game that served the false King , with sycophant bishops, and castles. CHECKMATE!

In 1989 there was a clear denial from the Tkach PR...

2016-06-20T23:25:50.595+12:00

In 1989 there was a clear denial from the Tkach PR machine of any involvement of Bobby Fischer with WCG and that he was never a member. (Somewhere around that time Bobby made the headlines again, the PGR was read out to us)

At the time I was very surprised because I knew it was not true.

This was one of many instances that made me realize that the Tkachs were liars.

Later I learned that J Tkach didn't even write his own stuff. So technially Tkach is not a liar but his PR team was. (I guess that was Mike Weazell.)

nck

Fischer had some very strange and bizarre views ab...

2016-06-20T19:17:49.307+12:00

Fischer had some very strange and bizarre views about Jews in his later life. That is all too true.

As for the Khazar theory I am very much inclined not to give any heed to that particular theory. I have no use for it. I am very much inclined to believe it is not true.

Back in the sixth Century Gregory of Tours wrote his History of the Franks. He mentioned that there were Jews living in what is now known as France way back in the sixth Century. It is quite likely they had already been living there for a long time, perhaps as early as the Roman era. There is no need to appeal to the Khazar theory to account for Jews living in France. Or pretty much anywhere else.

Actually, NEO, this theory that the Jews of today ...

2016-06-20T18:46:10.705+12:00

Actually, NEO, this theory that the Jews of today are not the Jews of antiquity is being used to some extent within the ACOGs to invalidate the differences in dna between today's Jews and Anglo Saxon people, thus preserving their hallowed British Israelism. There was a 19th century theory that today's Ashkenazic Jews are the descended from the Khazars, who supposedly converted to Judaism much as did the Idumeans and others. Legitimate scholars are dubious that this could be the case, but we all know that in Armstrongism, dubious scholarship is adequate, so long as it supports their theories.

BB

Some observations: I am surprised that Coudari en...

2016-06-20T15:02:57.293+12:00

Some observations:

I am surprised that Coudari encountered the odd idea that the real Jews were small in number and the remainder of the Jews were imposters. I thought this notion was promoted only by some AC BS faculty members after Fischer had dropped out of favor. When I, as a dedicated Armstrongite, first came into contact with the idea, I regarded it a new and subversive idea. But it seems to have had an earlier history. I would be interested in knowing who originated this idea if it did not originate in Big Sandy in the late Seventies.

I object to her referring to the WCG as an "evangelical". It clearly was not. Armstrongites often condemned the evangelizing that Christian churches engaged in.

It was interesting to see how excited Armstrongite leadership got about Fischer. I was on the BS campus when Fischer's stock was high. Everyone was talking about Fischer and chess acquired a big profile on campus. I believe Fischer was viewed as a source of money and a source of notoriety for HWA, GTA and the Minions. It was a little sickening. But like the Goose that Laid the Golden Egg, Fischer did not last.

OK ... I found what I was looking for. Fischer had...

2016-06-20T13:39:54.441+12:00

OK ... I found what I was looking for. Fischer had a major interview in the 1977 Ambassador Report. At that point he made it abundantly clear what he thought of both of the Armstrongs. Here's the link to the whole thing. See below that for a couple of poignant main points. This would have been the year before the big split between the Armstrongs. So, in other words, Fischer had already made his own break from the WCG and all it stood for--and the Armstrongs and all they stood for-- before the break that led to the CGI.

Bobby Fischer Speaks Out

About Herbert Armstrong:

"Herbert Armstrong has a way with words. You know, he seems so sincere. He has all the right principles: dedication, hard work, perseverance, never giving up. He's dogged; he's persistent.

You know, from reading his stuff and listening to his sermons, you'd think he was very interested in God. But when you meet him personally, there is nothing there at all.

I find Armstrong to be an egomaniac. He sitteth in the temple of God saying great things as if he were God. He apparently wants to leave his permanent mark on all he comes in contact with and can bring into submission. He is simply a mad man who would love to rule the world."

About Garner Ted Armstrong:

"I've tried to carry out what Garner Ted says to its logical conclusion. You know, it never seems to form. He carries things to a point but not to a conclusion. If you go to the conclusion with all this stuff, it comes out bad. By the time you've thought enough to come up with a good answer, he's on about 18 other subjects already. He gives you a very obvious kind of snow job.

Now I understand. I never understood how it could be that Herbert Armstrong seemingly had so much love and compassion and his son seemed so selfish and nasty. They're just the same people. They just have a different way of doing it, you know. Well, Herbert wrecked his son. I can see how that old man could ruin his son. I think GTA is just a massive inferiority complex."

Sarah Sneider (Harry's widow) would probably h...

2016-06-20T13:02:06.615+12:00

Sarah Sneider (Harry's widow) would probably have some insights, but I have no idea how to contact her. Harry worked security for Bobby, and as his body guard.

I had never heard of a transition to GTA's group either.

BB

Several years back I was contacted by phone by an ...

2016-06-20T12:52:59.577+12:00

Several years back I was contacted by phone by an Atlantic Monthly writer who had written a bio article of Fischer for the Atlantic. And he had decided to spin it out into a full-length bio book. He had been aware of Fischer's connection to the WCG, and since no previous biographers had explored that part of Bobby's history he wanted to home in on that as part of his expansion of the story. He was wondering if being part of the WCG world might have been part of what had led to his deterioration in later years into pretty much a strange raving anti-semite, who seemed pretty much disconnected from reality.

The author had come across my Field Guide website and was pleased with the extent of the material on WCG there, and as he had found very few "HQ insider" types who would talk to him, he was hoping I would be able to maybe fill in some gaps in his understanding of WCG history and culture. I was.

But I had no inside info on the Fischer connection. I was working closely with Ron Dart at the time, and asked him if he had any ideas who the author could contact. It was Ron who first told me at that time about the Art Mokarow connection. (Art had been the area coordinator for our part of the US back in our WCG days in the mid 1970s.) I had been unaware that Bobby had actually lived in their basement in Pasadena for a time. I can't remember if it was Ron, or someone else later, who characterized it to me that Mrs. Mokarow had particularly played the part of "Chess Mom" for Bobby. The impression I got was that she ran interference for him when it came to the press pursuing him and such, and kept them at arm's length. (Along with making sure he ate his veggies and such. :-) ) I hadn't heard that it may have gone as far as making decisions for him as described in this article, but that wouldn't have been outside a logical extension of the role she evidently played for a while. Perhaps others with closer HQ connections from that time period will be able to clarify more.

If Bobby ever had any connection with CGI, it was certainly never mentioned publicly. My husband was ordained as a CGI minister in 1979 and served as a pastor until he resigned and we left the CGI ... and corporate COG world for good... in 1988. We had close friends at CGI HQ, and I would have thought we would have heard SOMETHING if Bobby had any active part in either supporting or affiliating in any way with the org. I never heard the slightest hint of that.