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I was in the church in 60's and 70's. There are many questions I have, but mostly regret from being drug around the Worldwide Church of God most of my childhood. My dad was never in the church and in the 70's he always told me that eventually the church would split in splinters and that 50 years after Herbert's death there would be no church. My dad made all kinds of predictions about the Worldwide Church of God and he had a 95 percent correct rate, so much higher that hwa. I choose to see the world differently now. I am glad I live in this country where we can bash the bastard! Thanks for being out there to talk to.
Hi there: I think your dad should have been the prophet. Even if he was only 1% correct, it would have beaten HWA's record. Herbie was 100% wrong. Sometimes fathers can see, with the wisdom of years, the end result of our mistakes. Both our fathers could see the uselessness of Worldwide Church of God, and now, its malignant offspring. It might not take many more years before all those jackals are out of business. If current members are reading the PT site with open minds, then the Worldwide Church of God+ membership will dwindle after reading all the phenomenal bilge that these criminals have precipitated.Best 2 U, and thanx 4 writing.
I came into the Worldwide Church of God in 1970 at a time when the church was growing by the proverbial leaps and bounds. Pasadena was churning out young ministers and shipping them out to the field to serve the rapidly growing church. Now, most of those ministers are well into middle age and facing retirement. I don't know but would guess that the Worldwide Church of God does NOT have a pension plan for these people, and if they do, it probably isn't a good one. So, once BS and Pasadena finally produce the big $$$ it's my prediction that this money will be rolled into a pension fund to pay all those loyal hirelings who have hung in there with Tkach Jr. and his entourage. To the victor belongs the spoils.
And thanks for your note. But I don't think any of those older and almost retired ministers will get anything. That's NOT the way of the tare.
Many staff and ministers have been laid off in the past without a penny, and I don't see it changing now.
There once was a pension plan for retiring ministers, but Stan Rader cancelled it. Since ministers do NOT have to pay Social Security, that leaves these retiring men in a bad spot. Some churches pay the Social Security for their staff as well as contribute to a retirement fund. That would be the decent way to go, but with Joe Tacky Jr., I can guarantee you, a monetary compensation will NOT be the case, and these older ministers will be left to fend for themselves.
The bottom line of Worldwide Church of God is that the cultmasters don't give a damn.Best. John
Read your article "Cheap, Prostitute Salesmen For The Cult". I'm very saddened to read the stuff about HWA on "Painful Truth" but I'm glad I did. It has saved me a lot of grief.
So who/where is the real Church?
And thanx for your letter. Glad you're free from any cult madness, and that's the point of the PT site. From what I've seen, it's saved many people much grief, and probably some lives.
There is NO real church. The Biblical word for Church is "Ekklesia." It only means "the called out ones," and that can be anywhere and anyone. But the principles of love, kindness, and peace among men are always active.
This doesn't exclude folks meeting together, but when it becomes organized to any extent or when you have to contribute MONEY for some hireling's salary, this is the give away that it's departing from a simple group meeting, and then I think it's time to depart.
The "Church" is nothing more than people like you and I who can set a Christ like example of love and kindness in the world and spread good among our fellow man. Watch our for organizations.
Best to you. John.
Read your article "Cheap, Prostitute Salesmen For The Cult". I'm very saddened to read the stuff about HWA on "Painful Truth" but I'm glad I did. It has saved me a lot of grief.
So who/where is the real Church?
REPLY:Hello Lenard: And thanx for your letter.
Glad you're free from any cult madness, and that's the point of the PT site. From what I've seen, it's saved many people much grief, and probably some lives.
There is NO real church. The Biblical word for Church is "Ekklesia." It only means "the called out ones," and that can be anywhere and anyone. But the principles of love, kindness, and peace among men are always active. This doesn't exclude folks meeting together, but when it becomes organized to any extent or when you have to contribute MONEY for some hireling's salary, this is the give away that it's departing from a simple group meeting, and then I think it's time to depart.
The "Church" is nothing more than people like you and I who can set a Christ like example of love and kindness in the world and spread good among our fellow man.
Watch our for organizations.
Best to you. John.
It's been a long time since I visited the Painful Truth.
I thought I'd take another shot across the bows of the pirate ships of the Worldwide Church of God-UCG-ICG or what the hell ever CGs are springing up like weeds. Proving that a sucker is born every minute, the parasitic retread CG preachers who still expound the excrement of Armstrong, are finding the bible a lucrative source of income. So what else is new? In all religions, the name of the game is MONEY. To paraphrase a biblical verse (puke!): "They roam about like hungry lions among the poor and deluded, seeking to devour." And the bastards are still getting rich doing it. (They sold Big Sandy for peanuts. Who cares, as long as "The Called Out Ones" keep pour money into little Joe's pocket?}
Which brings me to good ole Scott Ashley, the Plain Truth editor and producer of UCG's bible course. In his first lesson, the front cover shows an open bible and in large letters above it is this heading: WHY THE BIBLE IS THE WORD OF GOD. Well, now, If I was still under Herbie's Old Black Magic spell, I would have nodded vigorously in total agreement, as no doubt the diehards do. But that was then, and this is now. I yanked his chain when I sent him a long letter stating facts that prove the bible is most definitely NOT the word of the true God. I told him a true God would not go around killing babies, causing mass slaughter, bring on plagues, etc. Anyway, the exchange between us is somewhere on the Painful Truth. He replied angrily what kind of God did I believe in? Was I in that ignorant class that worshipped cows? He blocked my reply, so if he happens to read this, John, I want him to know that I believe he is a damn coward for not accepting my answer. And to consider the following, if his warped intelligence can stand it. Also I want to confuse him further with the following facts:
Currently, there is a battle going on between creationists and evolutionists. the holy joes are appalled at the fact that the 10 commandments may be done away with. What blasphemy! sac religious! an insult to God and the Bible! Well, in this morning's Columbus Dispatch appeared two different articles that would make bible believers gnash their teeth and spit fire. On page A-3 is a full size skeleton photo of a Tyrannosaurus rex. No, not from "Jurassic Park." This is a REAL one dug up in South Dakota and is a perfect 67 million year old specimen. Which knocks the biblical theory into a cocked hat.
And finally, this quote in the same edition from Donald Turndrup, associate professor, Dept. of Astronomy, Ohio State University: Evolution has evidence, while creation does not "The May 7 article, 'Evolution versus Creationism' presented clearly the views of both scientists and creationists in the continuing discussion over acceptance of evolution by the public. The articles, however, did not point out that the debate is not about scientific issues but rather about control of the educational system in the United States. The scientific community, through open discussion and free debate, has established beyond reasonable doubt that the Earth is approximately 4.6 billion years old, that life probably rose once on Earth and that life in all its awe-inspiring variety is the result of the interaction of genes, bodies, and environment. While many details remain to be worked out, all these are known to be true as, say, the observation that the Earth is nearly spherical and orbits the sun. The creationist arguments that are outlined in the article are simply not factually true and stem from deliberate misrepresentations of science and (my italics) a profound misunderstanding if the origins of the Bible."
So, Scotty, old chap, put THAT in your pipe and smoke it!
Dear John O,
We have been reading your writings on the Painful Truth website since your first submission & we want to express our long overdue thanks. Along with you & so many others we have taken the long journey out of Worldwide Church of God's dark oppression into the light of freedom. Your articles & your recommended readings have been very helpful in guiding us to the Real Plain Truth.
As we read, searched & studied we reached some startling & somewhat frightening conclusions. We found that we had been duped into believing a lie & we felt stupid. Why didn't we read & research before ? The evidence has always been there. How could we have been so blind ? We might still be in darkness if the internet & the Painful Truth website had not intervened in our lives & precipitated our research.
With your help we found an enormous amount of evidence demonstrating that Christianity & the story of Jesus Christ were created to unify the Roman Empire under one state religion. This fabrication incorporated myths & rituals that existed long before the Christian era & this appalling deception continues in the Christian religion today. We are very happy with our new found beliefs & understanding. We still believe in God as the Universal Force that controls the universe, but we have a few nagging questions.
We are not sure how to approach prayer & meditation. We also find it difficult to discuss our new outlook on religion with others. Any suggestions ?
Please continue to inform & enlighten all your readers.
P.S. We just finished reading....The Christ Conspiracy, The Greatest Story Ever Sold by Acharya S.
Thanks for the letter and good 2 hear from U again. Also glad to see the articles have helped.
Please don't feel bad about being duped. We all were, and because of ignorance and fear. However, you can feel better than most. You're OUT now. That's a real plus!
That's one of the reasons the PT site not only exposes the frauds and cultmasters, but also points the way to other tunnels of "enlytenment." If people keep studying, they'll find the truth that's applicable to
themselves. You've seen that on the site, it's loaded with other references and web links for anyone to research. People are not afraid to look and research for themselves anymore. Prove all things. That's freedom. All this can help break the cult bond, as you've found. The more you learn from your own research, then the more the cult pain will fall behind. While we can never forget it, and there's always some pain there, it will hurt less and less the more we grow ourselves.
Since you're only one of many who've written on the subject of Prayer and Meditation, I thot it better if I addressed this W-I-D-E subject in an article, submitted it, and compared it with the oppressive way Worldwide Church of God used to ignorantly teach it.
I wouldn't worry about discussing your new beliefs with others, yet. When the time is right, and it WILL come, those souls of like beliefs will find you. Watch!
Thanks again for the encouragement, and blessing to both of U.
I've been reading, with great interest, your articles on "The Painful Truth " web site. You've obviously given these things a great deal of thought and I find them to be most thought provoking.
By way of background, I am an ex member of the Worldwide Church of God. I attended from late 1977 until 1995 and, at this point, no longer desire to attend any church.
The basic problem is that I've never been much of a Believer . Even after almost 20 years in the Worldwide Church of God, in the end, I was simply unable to accept what I couldn't see. When I first started reading "The Plain Truth" in 1973 I wanted, with all my being, to believe that it was true. More than anything else I wanted to know that there was something beyond this flimsy mortal existence that we strive to hold on to. Having never really opened a bible before, it all seemed so logical and so I was able to "prove" all things based on the information at hand. By the time I was baptized in '79 I was absolutely convinced that the kingdom was at hand and that I was one of God s elect.
As time wore on, doubts ... major ones ... began to surface. I realized that there was something wrong but thought that if I could only push the doubt away everything would work out OK. I paid, prayed, and tried to submerge myself in "The Work" . I was like "The little engine that could" , huffing and puffing down Herbie's track saying "I think I can, I think I can ... " while at the same time never really certain where I was going.
I had become so unhappy with life that I had to try to sit down and begin to re-prove everything that I thought I knew or believed. I started with church doctrine and history. Needless to say I was sorely disappointed but not really surprised. After that I started looking into the book itself and soon discovered that it too was fatally flawed. This was happening around the time that all the "changes " were being introduced into the church, and it only further convinced me that the whole god thing is a scam and that Joe Jr. and his Pasadena puppets were full of crap.
(Sorry if this seems a bit long winded, but there is a point to it)
To make a long story short(er), I've basically fallen back into a sort of sullen agnosticism. As of right now, I think religion is simply mankind's way of denying the fact that our ultimate destiny is to become fertilizer. It also happens to be a great tool of oppression and a damn good business opportunity. As for god,... who knows. The one in the bible is a fable, but if he did exist, he'd be a real asshole and I wouldn't worship him anyway.
This is where your articles come in ... They present a different approach. My mind is slowly opening to other possibilities that I had not previously considered. In spite of having a cynical heart and a skeptical mind it seems as though maybe... just maybe ... there is more to life after all. For that I thank you.
All the best Steve
And thanx 4 a most encouraging letter. Thank you for thinking, as you certainly are, thank you for not being afraid of making conclusions, and thanx 4 carving out a new destiny for yourself. You've started on the eternal road to Infinity, and I couldn't be happier.
True! You're right about the scams. HWA and Joe Tacky Jr. and certainly full of it. "By their fruits," you have rightly judged, and when the BS of what they were preaching didn't gel, you used your God given abilities, and reasoned your way out of the madness. Congrats.
Such a scenario has depressed most of us (me included), and many of us want to throw in the towel completely. Cults will do that. Their brainwashing (as you found) is to believe them or believe nothing, and perish. Good 4 U, Steve, you graduated.
Now comes a long trek. Like many of us, you've joined your personal search to go where few have gone before. Thinking is a pre-requisite, and the freedom to challenge all ideas is a "must." But, none of us have it made. All of us are on the path.
If you've read the latest article on "Does God Care?" you'll see that this outlines thousands of years of belief of the nature of Spirit, Soul, and Body. Nothing here is new. In a sense, this puts the "fear" of God in the trash pile, which is where Worldwide Church of God+ cults belong. We're all friends, buddies, and soul mates in this universe. We all belong with each other, we can all help each other, and we can all be friends.
Glad the articles were of help. Blessings 2 U and yours. Keep trekking, buddy. We've come a long way, but we all have a long way 2 go. Best.
Have just read Noah's Fraud. Thanks for this way of looking at it. Myself I'll leave the Maths to another time though. I have many times thought about the ecological way of debunking the myth. There are so many ecological niches which are very fragile. What does one imagine the effect would be of deluging these with masses of cold and partly saline water for weeks and weeks. The numbers of food chains that would have been instantly and irreparably damaged is colossal. Take freshwater tropical fish for just one example. They are temperature/light/food sensitive. Noah fans would have a hard job with this I reckon. Maybe I'll write it up. I quite fancy having a page published on the PT with the possibility of wacky e-mail comments to boot!
Hi Bill: Thanks for the note and excellent comments. You're correct in what you've said, as there's so many holes in the Noah's Flood theory that it'd take years to sort out.
Please, go ahead and write the article for the PT site, and hit this theme from another angle. The more logic we can throw into this subject, the better. At least you can submit it for posting, but I wouldn't worry about the crackpots coming back at you with email. If the article is logical, then there's little they can say. I've personally found that the more an article makes common sense, the less anyone can criticize.
Thanx again, and best 2 U, Bill.John.
But John, you don't understand! It was a miracle. God created the extra water, kept the earth in orbit, then miraculously removed the water when he was done. He's smart! He can do anything! You're just leaning to your own understanding! This proves what happens when the spirit is quenched! Yaddayaddayadda!
Great job, John. I had wondered if Everest could have been covered, but I don't know the science, so I never thought to check it. I just blindly swallowed it because the Bible was true, Herbert was right, Mom had proved it, and she was the smartest person I knew.
Thanks for a great article.
Reply: Hey there, John: And thanx muchly 4 the letter. Always good 2 hear from U. I couldn't help laughing at the humor, but what you said is soooooooooooo true. Many, well believing folks will take this premise and whitewash the whole Biblical scene. There's no winning in the eyes of the "religious righteous."
I'm passing this onto the Editors, as everyone needs a chuckle now and then. Once more, thanx 4 the (very true) humor, and blessing 2 U.
Keep in contact. JohnO.
Dear John O
I am responding to the article dated 7/16/00 I would have to say I agree with you very much. The damage that this church did to us was incredible. Made us think the end time was so close -Its the fear and intimidation! ( Oh gee maybe I will become a minister & get their money ) :)) Never saving for retirement----because the world would end!
But when I wasn't sure about the church and still thought they were good we almost decided to go with another offshoot. Only to find later that they were false also. But gee we could not attend we were not perfect enough for us to attend their church, but ANYWAYS we sent our tithes and they TOOK them-they took are hard earned money never stating that since your not a member -WE CAN NOT ACCEPT YOUR MONEY!
All of these churches are wrong!! I have studied long and hard! And yes John we do have FREE speech and your not doing anything bad only exposing what is wrong!
We no longer belong to a church and I don't think we ever will!
I am an ex-WCG/UCG/xCG member. I started my way out of the cult in 1998. It's been quite hard at times, but at least now I know the truth, and I'm not living any lies anymore. I appreciate your latest article on the PT website about pseudo-victims. It's so like the hireling mentality to be like the Nixon-era administration and attack the accuser instead of refuting the allegations. I am grateful that you have dedicated yourself to exposing all of the ministerial hypocrisy, lies and hubris. You are doing all of us who are "coming out" a great service. Your prospective is unique and your courage laudable. Please keep up the good work!
Your article hit home here in my local area. The minister who was our local pastor when I came into the Church, left and went to United when they decided to pick up his retirement (he wouldn't leave before). However, since he is retired, he gets to speak maybe once a month. This seems to upset him, because he doesn't have the power and control over the congregation that he is used to. So now, he starts his own Church with some loyal supporters that he has lured away from United. Someone told me that he was trying to start a Church under GTA's organization, but that fell through when GTA wouldn't pick up his retirement. This really flabbergasted me!
I remember so well that this man equated GTA with the devil in some of his sermons. He told stories of how GTA was going to fire him if he didn't swear an oath of loyalty to him. He also told the story of how GTA once said, "We finally got rid of the old man (HWA)!". He also condemned members for watching GTA's program and said that it was Satan trying steal sheep from the flock! Now, he says that GTA is preaching the "truth" and that everyone should follow him. Stop the insanity! as the saying goes. I'm curious to hear you opinion about this. Again, thanks for what you are doing. We're in your debt.
Thanks for your letter and the encouraging words. Sure, we'll keep up the fight, and call the hypocrisy of the Worldwide Church of God+ cults as we see it. I know all this sounds like some huge, ugly soap opera, but we don't have to write a script. It's already written and we're just relating it as it comes. And the wrongdoing here is like the proverbial avalanche.
I'm not surprised that the "retired" minister is still after the buck, because that's always the way of business, even at the membership's expense. This is one aspect of proving that these jerks never did give a damn about anyone, and were only in the cult for their own aggrandizement and profit. The tares of the earth have no conscience, and the more I write for the PT Site, the more people write to me privately with horror stories that seem to go on forever. These criminals could never had gotten away with all this IF the whole organization was not this way from the beginning.
These hypocrites have no hesitation of publicly "marking, naming, and disfellowshipping," anyone from the pulpit. But (as you said) when someone publicly strikes back at the lies (which is a person's Constitutional right), then the reaction of the Worldwide Church of God+ hirelings is just like the criminals . . . they blame someone else instead of addressing the charges. And then they whine like cowards for sympathy after they've destroyed countless lives. But there's NEVER a statement of repentance from any of them. That's the key to their culpability.
GTA is a joke now, and anyone who follows him must either be tremendously gullible or after a paycheck from him like that "retired" hireling. Thanks again for your letter, and we'll keep on pluggin' away at the "plain truth."
Best 4 now.
Hi John O
A few friends and family have been trying to find out about why ministerial retirement is such a big issue whenever we read any news about what is going on in the Worldwide Church of God sale of a lot of campus property.
I remember taking a class in Accounting at A.C. many years ago, when the instructor was explaining how to calculate Social Security and other taxes. He explained how a wage earner has 7.5% deducted out of his/her wages, and the remaining 7.5% would be paid by the employer. If you were an entrepreneur running your own business, you paid the whole 15% yourself. For historical and other reasons, if you worked as a minister, Federal law categorized you as self-employed whether you were salaried or not and therefore required the full 15% deducted or paid. (Perhaps the lawmakers were wise to religious organizations.) From what I remember, my Accounting instructor said there was a loophole in this law, and I think all or most ministers in the Worldwide Church of God used it. I think it was for a minister to sign a statement saying he would commit himself for life or something similar.
When I have time, I try to read the Ambassador Reports as I finally find a lot of answers to unanswered questions to what I saw 15-20 odd years ago. I think it was AR from June of 1985 a few paragraphs were mentioned of how ministers had NO plan for retirement, and this lack of any retirement plan was a great concern to many senior ministers even at that time. I also feel they paid no Social Security Tax as well.
Although I don't have the warmest regards for most Worldwide Church of God+ ministers I have known, I still have some concern for those who served the best they could as true believers. (A few years ago, one minister told me he was going to start a business repairing cracks in car windshields.) In the long run, I honestly don't think the Worldwide Church of God will be around long enough to provide for all these people. If you have the time, I appreciate if you can verify any truth in what I have heard of those Social Security Tax laws.
Once upon a time, in the sixties and before, ministers/hirelings in Worldwide Church of God had a retirement plan. In the seventies, Stan Rader cancelled it because he felt the money could be better spent "elsewhere." I think we all know that the money (and ministers' retirement money) was then wasted by wild Worldwide Church of God spending. Ministers who left in those early years did get some sort of retirement compensation, but that was the end of any retirement security for ministers. By law, ministers do not have to pay social security, and so many don't because they figured that "the end was near." It's an option with most church organizations, that those organizations themselves may wish to absorb the SS for their ministers.
Many do, as a matter of fairness to their employees, and thus a retiring minister can have his SS for his old age. But Worldwide Church of God was obviously too cheap for that and Stan Rader had the purse strings. To cover the SS for the ministry was apparently too much to spend according to Stan. Therefore, Worldwide Church of God did not contribute to any minister's SS, leaving a retirement minister just hanging with no income. Many are now destitute from what I hear.
Thus, any current Worldwide Church of God+ hireling nowadays realizes that he must have some old age income, and so they'll scurry to the nearest money source to align themselves for the retirement bucks. It's simply a matter of "loyalty" for mammon. But there was NO signing any statement about being loyal for life, or anything like that. Even working ministers have the option of paying their own complete (15% or whatever figure) social security, but most except the top brass could not afford it. We were starving as it was. It's true that some Worldwide Church of God ministers were genuine, and these were the ones that were usually screwed, especially when it came to retirement. The top cultmasters took good care of themselves, being able to pull expense money whenever deemed necessary. Thus, they could not only cover social security for themselves, but pile up a nice nest egg as well. I understand that there were all sorts of insider trading investments that generously lined the bank accounts of the top cultmasters. They took excellent care of themselves, but screwed the lower "ranks."
I have just read your painful truth and I found it fascinating and very informative. I too am looking for the truth and what religion is the right religion. so far I have come up empty handed. until I find one, I will continue to read my scriptures, pray, and meditate upon the word. I think you are doing an excellent job, keep up the good work!!
Hi there, and thanks for your letter and comments. If you're honestly in a searching mode for the "truth," then please be sure of your sources. Also, please check out Thomas Paine's AGE OF REASON which is downloadable from the PT Site. There are many other books mentioned on the Site which are equally as enlightening, and worth researching. While most religions are in the money business, our best defense against their lies is common sense and logic. Our own minds are the key to eventually finding a true spiritual path, and one that's marked by love and kindness to our fellow man. Religion, per se, seeks to dominate its members, take their money, and has no real place in any person's spiritual life.
Best for now. John
Re: Imagine article.
I can more than imagine. After getting out of the Worldwide Church of God and landing in an open bible church, I started to study where the bible comes from, instead of what others said it said or meant. I studied Thomas Payne (thanks to this web site)and all logic has lead me to the conclusion that religion is not from a GOD or Gods and is made by man to control man in some form. Praise God (if there is one ) that I and my family will never be on bent knee on any make believe holy day starving so we can go to the promise (false one or not).The one question they fear is that if God is all powerful then why does he need our money to build anything? A true all powerful God could_would make a building complete and full of money so there would be no doubt. I feel very sorry for those who continue in offshoots of Worldwide Church of God The worst of all is the PCG where most of my wife's family is trapped by that hell spawn Flurry. I bet his bank account is well padded for the endtimes GOD BLESS (if there is one ) from Roy, Cambridge, Ohio Reply:
And thanx for your letter, and like with so many others, I'm glad to see your "Cult" free.
Some those other offshoots, from what I'm hearing, are more crazy than the original . . . if that's possible. But, like you, we're no longer bending our knee to these religious hustlers and snake-oil salesmen who rely on ignorance to sell God for emotion and profit.Thanks again, and best. John
Enjoyed this article. Especially loved your description of HWA's "filthy temper". Never heard it described so accurately. I loved it. (Also, the Mini-Me pic -that's a classic. Did you create it?)
Hi there, John:
And thanx 4 the letter. The Herbie pic was not done by me, but by the editor of "The Graveyard Church of God." He has a whole stream of hilarious stuff. My wife went almost hysterical when she saw the depiction of Herbie as "Buffalo Bill." Last time I saw (and heard) her, she was still laughing. Anyhow, peace, best, and havva great end of this crazy year.Best again. John.
I read your article about Herbie Wanabees and want to make comment about the Church of God (Seventh Day). Like your experience, I found them to be the most dedicated and supportive Christians ever. There are some within that organization that are legalistic and narrow but I am confident this is changing. I had the opportunity to meet its current President, Whaid Rose this May when he visited Toronto. He is one of the most humble men I ever met. His humility exceeds Armstrong, Meredith and Hulme combined. He faces a lot challenges in his organization, pressures from within the organization as well as outside. There are Armstrong wannabees unfortunately in the CG7 who keep spreading their paranoid fantasies that somehow Pastor Whaid is "leading the flock astray" or "will join the Worldwide Church of God corporately (Mike Feazell and Greg Albrecht don't want to have anything to do with Whaid, unless its on their terms)". There are Armstrongites giving him unsolicited advice of how to run CG7 relentlessy and if Whaid doesn't agree with their wacky view, he also is called every name in the book. Pastor Whaid just wants the organization that is Sabbatarian (without the legalistic baggage that goes with it), grace oriented and more importantly, Christ-centred. What is so bad about that?
Pastor Whaid knows about the allegations about HWA (he even had the Tangled Web of HWA but lost it when a loaned it somebody (just guessing, perhaps that person was an angry Armstrongite??)I guess Pastor Whaid can order another here, I should e-mail him!) and quoted the scripture from Romans that all things work together to the glory of God when I told him about my experience in the Worldwide Church of God. I was truly encouraged and I believe time well spent with my conversation with this man this past May. If you know about him, you know he can preach a good sermon. Contrast that to some (but by no means all) in the Worldwide Church of God who DID NOT have the gift of preaching but who were allowed to speak and spoke non-inspiring and forgettable stuff imaginable. It is my hope that the Church of God (Seventh Day) will grow as a denomination and that God will restore what HWA in some sense "stole" from them.
JohnO keep on exposing the works of darkness, don't let anyone drag you down for what you are doing.
Reply: Hello Felix: Thanks for your letter and the good word. I've never met Whaid Rose, but he sounds like a former president of the General Conference, Robert Coulter, who was also a gentleman. Robert never forced his beliefs on you, but simply allowed you to see his point of view, if you were so inclined. If and when you didn't, there was no hard feelings, and you could depart in peace with his good wishes. Live and let live. We departed CG7 when we saw doctrines and life differently than something coming from the Laws of Moses. While some in CG7 bade us farewell with a good spirit, there were some "Wannabes" as you said, that had a darker intention. But you'll get these characters in every group.
Make no mistake about it, Worldwide Church of God would love to get its claws into CG7, but for only ONE reason the money. GTA tried that in 1980 at the General Conference meeting at Glorietta in New Mexico. He wanted the whole congregation to join him, and the tithes, etc. would naturally have been all sent to GTA's headquarters in Tyler, TX. The bottom line, and I suspect it is with Albrecht et al as well, is the bucks.
CG7 can be a good transition for ex-Worldwide Church of God people who have been psychologically damaged and who still believe in a religious or church life. Anyhow, if they speak to some of the older CG7 folks, they can hear one earful about the early antics of Herbie.
Take care and best. John.
Dear Enlyten I read your piece on herbie wannabes. Every word is right on...I worked in the TV studio from 82 to 91 and boy what I saw: greed and ego and lust for power..
I could go on and on. The anger and hate I saw in hwa and both of the Ts. The eyes being the window to the soul. I looked into all three and saw such hatred and anger toward other people. I saw no love in them only a hate filled beast that wants more and more blood.
Well I will close take care
Thanks for the letter. Yes, this is not the first story about the lust and struggle for power that I've heard about inside "God's College."
By their fruits shall you know them.
Just finished answering a guy's letter to the editor in the Sunday edition of the Columbus Dispatch titled "Those ignorant of the Bible have much to learn." I told him, in essence, he was in the right pew but the wrong church. (Intentionally phrased). He went on to prove his point by what is in the bible, but not its origin. (The same scam Herbie used).
In my rebuttal to him, I mentioned the fact that the bible was not written by God, but by men who convinced themselves God inspired them (like Herbie), then convinced us that it was so. And this was the state of mind all of us were in when we were caught in the tangled web of that goddam perverted parasite.
Since my escape from the spider's nest, I have learned so much more about the bible that I wonder why people remain stupid enough believing it. How did all those discrepancies escape me? But old Herbie had us under his old black magic spell. He wielded the bible like Zorro wielded his sword. Zorro slashed "Z," and Herbie pierced our brains with bible bullshit. In my rebuttal, I referred to McKinsey's book on Biblical Errancies plus other contradictory literature I read. John, contradictions and errors are so glaringly apparent in the bible, I wonder how the hell we ever missed them? "God is not the author of confusion." Remember? Then why the hell would he write such a screwed up bible and mess up our minds trying to understand it?
"The bible interprets itself." Duh. That's like a guy in a nut ward standing in a corner arguing with himself. There was a letter in the July issue of The Skeptical Review from which I would like to quote. Referring to Christ' constant remarks about "this generation:" (how did we miss this?):.... ...."In order to arrive at an understanding of what Christ meant by "this generation," let us first look at the Greek word genea, which is translated "generation" in Matt. 24:34 and many other New Testament scriptures....."
...."Now let's look at how genea is used in context in the N.T scriptures involving the sayings of Christ. In Matt. 23:36, speaking to the Pharisees, Christ said that all the righteous blood that has been shed on the earth would come upon "this generation."... ...."In every place where the authors of the N.T. showed Christ using the word genia, the context shows Christ using this word to refer to the people he was addressing at the time. Therefore, there is no scriptural justification to say that Christ was using genea in some other way in Matt. 24:34. Christ did not say that generation, or some other generation: He said this generation." ...."To try to make this saying of Christ apply to a generation far out into the future is totally inconsistent and incompatible with all other usage of genea in the New Testament." (unquote).
Every living, breathing, dedicated and devout member of "God's True Church" was told by "God's Apostle" that Christ' remark about "This generation shall not pass.." was meant specifically for our generation. And so the beat goes on....
It saddens me to see so many in the off-shoot cults still being taught this crapola by the retread Worldwide Church of God ministerial Dick-tators. I yanked UCG's Scott Ashley's chain when he came out with his "Why the Bible is the Word of God." I really pissed him off.
These little Herbie cell groups calling themselves what-the-hell-ever Churches of God can't even agree with one another. I say to them, join the nut-head in the corner who has the same problem. He doesn't know where the hell he's at, either.
Thanks for the info, and it's true that the Olivet prophecy (if it's true) was spoken to that generation ONLY. The crap hit the fan with those people in 70 AD with the fall of Jerusalem, and eventually the complete humbling of the Jews at their final stronghold at Masada. So any prophecy that MIGHT have been predicted, has long since gone.
But it's the same all over, even today, when televangelists, preachers can stand up and preach salvation by Jesus as related by Jesus. It simply ain't recorded at all. It's all the ravings of their own profitable minds. And, in the last 20 years, it's grown to be probably the world's biggest and most dangerous cult. If the religious right get their way, then we'll have another dark ages.
Basically, all Herbie's splinter groups have the same big problem. Each leader wants to be the latest "Apostle" and have all the cultic grandeur that goes with it. Wannabe Hitlers all.
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