Email: Sweet and Sour
(Mail from Kooks, Nuts and Loonies is on another page)
Email, Indexed by DATE
New on 1/11/99:
I grew up in the church. These days I almost never think about it and I am mostly happy. 2 days ago somebody ask me something about religion and I got to thinking about the church again and that led me to finding this page. I was feeling sick and depressed about my wcg days until I read this page. It brought back a flood of memories I had buried for so long. Good news is I am no longer depressed; just pissed. Thank you for the excellent page. I will visit again and again.
Your apologies are right on the mark. I can really relate to all those regarding children. Fear of end times. Being left behind from the "Place of Safety". Nazi-like surveillance of YOU members (I was at Camp Orr, boy was that hell...) I had nightmares of nuclear holocaust and other fun end of the world themes. My brother almost died because we couldn't take him to the doctor, had to have him anointed. Finally they did take him, after my grandmother said she would call the police. What a great childhood the wcg gave to me. I could write a book about how the wcg ruined my life. Maybe I should :)
Anyway, something to add to your apology list. The nearest church was so far away that we used to have to drive to church each Saturday 2 hours one way in some broken down old pile of crap which was all my dad could afford. That was 4 hours of drive time each Saturday, a 2 hour (boring) sermon, and hour of "fellowship" before and after church... amazing I didn't jump off of a bridge.
Oh well. Thanks and keep up the good work.
Thank you so much for the posting on 12/27/98 from Personal Freedom Outreach. It was most encouraging to hear from a watch group that is not fooled by the PR that issues forth from that despicable money-raking organization.
Hi, I am a former Worldwide Church of God member. Me too, as yourself have been hurt by the teachings of Mr. Armstrong. I do not think there is anything wrong with nocking some of the ideas that came from Worldwide Church of God in the past. In the past is exactly what it is. The Worldwide Church of God is no longer as you describe them, and nowhere on your page do you mention that. You make is seem as they are still the same as 20 years ago. They have made many drastic changes, even withing the past months. I am not asking you to appologize, but i am asking why you don't talk about how marvoulous and how awsome it is that many people in the Worldwide Church of God now live with freedom through Jesus Christ. They are people who have relationships with they're Lord and Savior, and no longer are being brainwashed into giving all they're money. Again, I am no longer a Worldwide Church of God member, and I am just wondering why you are harsh on the present church that is no longer as you describe them.
I really don't care about how much you think the wcg has changed.
They are still an abusive cult, its just that the level of abuse is less than it was before. That still doesn't make it "good" or worthy of praise.
Show me where they tell their members the truth about how they were misled.
Show me where they tell their members the truth about "God's Apostle" and his appointed successor, Joseph Tkach Sr. This is the foundation of the wcg: founded in iniquity, incest and lies. Can a bad tree bear good fruit? Not according to your bible.
Show me where they apologize for all the evil this church has committed over the years. Show me how they break it down fine, in little parts and be specific as a proper repentance would be. The readers of the PT didn't have any problem coming up with plenty of things the wcg could apologize for. Why is it so hard for "headquarters" to do a proper apology? Are they just too afraid of losing money?
Show me how they are trying to find and heal physically and mentally and monetarily all the former members that they harmed, as a Good Samaritan would. Explain to me how they can justify just moving on with their newfound Christianity without cleaning up the horrible mess they made in the past. Explain to me how your Christ would back up such behaviour.
Show me that they are NOT going to use the proceeds of the sale of the campus' for their own retirement and the perpetuation of their nice little money machine. (This is "old money" not new money. It belongs to all those that contributed their life blood to the church in the past.)
Explain to me why they are not so guilt ridden and fearful for all the evil that was done in God's name, that they don't get out of the religion business altogether.
Explain to me who gives the wcg the right to preach about God after all the evil they have done in the past. I don't think they really believe there is a God.
I know this is not the answer that you want, but the painful truth hurts only those that wish to believe or teach or gloss over lies.
New on 1/24/99:
Hello Ed, Thanks for the frequent updates to The Painful Truth, I really love the true stories such as Midnight Madness.
Have you ever considered a "Whatever Became Of ?" section where some of the movers and shakers of the Worldwide Church of God from past years are profiled? Where are they now? What are they doing? Splinter group? Reformed? Deceased?...it would be interesting and people across the country could send info in on these individuals...
If anyone wants to do the work on a page like this, I will publish it.
I visited this site some months ago. I was surprised to find that anyone felt the way that I did about being involved with Worldwide Church of God...even though my family's involvement occurred almost three decades ago. I have a renewed faith in grace that God cared enough not to leave me in an isolated, mental prison...too ashamed to question my feelings of bitterness and sadness.
I have many unanswered questions. I am confused about how the church, with its many radio affiliates during the earliest years, could have escaped the scrutiny of the United States government? With all of the paranoia surrounding wartime events, how could the church have gone unnoticed? Three wars. WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. Heaven knows the Moonies, the Branch Davidians and others never received such hands-off treatment.
I am able to spot a sociopath at fifty yards. I have my rearing in the church to thank for this. Sociopath seem to be attracted to me too. We seem to understand one another.
As deeply disturbed by my church memories from childhood, I am equally disturbed by systems I have witnessed as an adult, namely the abuse of animals. Having worked in a research lab, I came to view the animals' experience with mutilation and experimentation no different from my own experience as a child in Worldwide Church of God. How could anyone justify, or even worse, gain pleasure from seeing another living creature squirm and cry out in pain? Worldwide Church of God loved to see children squirm. Sometimes I think it was the church's sole purpose for existing. A lot of hurting adults who didn't have the guts to confront people who had hurt them...instead, kick the dog (child). After all, no one will do anything to stop you not other adults, not the U.S. government. In fact, the church leadership will probably congratulate you on what well-behaved children you have. (Beagle dogs which had been part of a psychological experiment involving electrocution in order to modify behavior reminded me of myself. Submissive. Cowering. So easy to get along with).
I was going to put a lid on my emotions and forget about the church, but a fire still burns inside of me that will not let me be "a good girl" about the whole experience. I just cannot denote the difference between Hitler's Nazi regime and Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God and animal abuse. Take what you will from others, including their lives. Use whatever means available. And exalt yourself in the process.
I do believe, despite nagging doubts, that all problems are opportunities for spiritual growth.
New on 2/21/99:
There is one thing you forgot to mention, Mr. Armstrong always said " Do not believe me but believe your Bible " and that he stated that he was human and does make mistakes. All the information I have ever read by Mr. Armstrong, I have noticed he has not put dates on his work. It shames me to think how people that were showen the truth scorn it. If you would search the Bible you would see it. Mr. Armstrong said he was not perfect, but thoes who scorn the work God did through him think they are. The only person who was and is perfect is God The Word, who became flesh ( Jesus Christ )
Satan is 1000 times more powerful than we are if not more. If you do not keep youe eyes on the Head of God's Church, Jesus Christ, you will become deceived and believe the lie.
InGod's Love Rick
I wonder if you could spare a few moments to outline how the Worldwide Church of God in the days of Armstrong(s) regarded Judaism and Jewish people. Though they shared the same Sabbath and similarities in their dietary laws for instance, my guess would be that it would be highly negative. Would this have been manifested in direct attacks and rhetoric, which may have become common currency to it's members? Examples?
Or was the real bile reserved for their Christian brothers, the Catholics and other Protestant groups? :)
Thanking you for your time, and I look forward to hearing from you. -Michael
This is only my opinion and I am no expert on what the wcg really believed. It varied according to which minister you had.
They seemed to look on the Jews as our "brothers". Brothers who certainly had more of the truth than the deluded, paganized Christian religion. The wcg did not see itself as a part of that Christianity. They identified more with the Jews. It was just that the Jews did not have all of the Truth, as yet, but they would and be saved but those bad "Christians" would have to pay a terrible price. The attacks were more on the "pagan" christians. Herbie was very friendly with Israel.
I found this Web page "Fifteen Ways to Spot an Internet Bandit." On the surface this list would be most helpful to the new and experienced Web junkie, As you read the list the list, you'll soon realize the amazing resemblance to the ploys of wcg past and present. Rather than spell out the similarities, I'll let your memories abound.
OLD NEW DOG OLD TRICKS.
John NJ ................
Quackwatch Home Page
Your article was totally on track!!!!! Loved it!!
Perhaps you should start a ministry?
Uhhhh.... thanks, but which article? I have over 200 pages and most of them are not authored by me.
Sorry, can't do the ministry thing, I have ethics and integrity.
Have read your comments on the internet. We were also tithe payers to the Worldwide Church of God for over 20 years. My wife attended Ambassador College at Bricket Wood in the 60s, and her father wrote a letter to the church demanding her tithes back in the late 60s, as they were obtained under false pretenses.
Is there nothing legally you can do to have members` money repaid and reclaimed to them? We would be interested to hear.
Thanks for your message.
I guess your wife's father did not get his money back.
I know of one lady who is talking about suing. I will certainly post it on my web page if there is ever a class action suit. If you want to start one, there are a lot of people who would join in.
I think the a legal tactic could be "undue influence."
I LOVED your page. thank you,
My wife and i left the wcg in Nov. 98, the reason why is simple and it has Nothing to do with doctrine. We know of many ,some of my wife's family entrapped into continued legalism and slavery to a man mainly pcg and that devil spawn Flurry. We felt we could no longer support an org. That does little to help those that it led into captivity or at least helped to.
What is being done to stem the cancer of the pcg???? Little I fear and I would love to see all the might of the painful truth site and those connected turn and combat those who came out of wcg and leave those who wish to stay in wcg alone.
Sorry, there is no might to The Painful Truth other than truth and information.
If you have some helpful truth or information about the PCG or Flurry, write an article and I will publish it if it is true. I don't have time to care about all the many daughters of hwaism, there are too many of them. I go for the trunk of the tree which is ol' herbie himself and the hypocrites in charge of the wcg.
Once people see how phony the whole bunch is/was they may be on their way to true freedom from religion altogether. If not, it isn't my fault.
Reading what you have on the web page about Prophecy from Mr. Armstrong. You know you must be blind. Mr. Armstrong always said don't believe me but believe your Bible. Mr. Armstrong knew he made mistakes. A lot of the things he said are coming about now. I have read most of Mr. Armstrongs material and very rearly did he put dates on them. Study to show thyself approved. I have Plain Truths from 1934 to 1989. The stuff you are saying, are at most not true. You are deceived and are trying to deceive others. No man is perfect, but people like you try to find fault in anything you don't like, for shame. God will hold you responsiable for what you teach.
Richard L. Desfosses
I must admit, you're web site is one of the most interesting I've come across yet!
I grew up in WWCG and am now 45 years old. I remember with fondness sitting in the tent at Jekyll Island while the tent poles danced in hurricane force winds.
Or even further back, laying on my blanky in big sandy Texas in the heat.
I must admit though that I didn't commit suicide as a teenager. A couple of my friends might have but not me.
I AM still plagued though with extreme blushing and shyness in certain situations that remind me of the church sermon atmosphere. That's been a continual struggle all my life and has held me back from getting as far as I might have.
Reading scripture is now on my own and I've gotten so much more out of it since leaving the church. Of course it took me 20 years to begin reading the bible again after I left WWCG in my early 20s. sigh.
It's funny but I still don't eat white bread. sigh.
Oh the stories I could tell!
This is TOOOOO much!
New on 2/27/99:
Stumbled onto your website, sir.
If it is easy, zip up anything and everything you have about everything and zap it to me (please). After i read it may i ask questions about your bleiefs or should i just start asking you questions now?
Does man have a soul??
Sorry, there are more than 200 pages and about 11 megs. Too much bandwidth there.
The pages are not really meant for the general public unless they are considering membership in Worldwide Church of God or one of its daughters.
Does man have a soul? I have ceased caring. Either we do or don't. Can't change anything one way or the other.
I am at the point where I believe there is a God, but do not believe He is attempting to communicate with us other than the wonder of the creation and infrequent, unpredictable interventions. So, I guess I wouldn't have a lot of answers to your questions.
If answers to our questions were so important, any human father would be sure that we understood what they were. I would think that an Almighty Father would do the same. He wouldn't put the answers in a book that is proven to be fallible, written by humans with their own opinions and politics and beliefs, written in ancient languages, then basically make it unavailable to the majority of all people who have ever lived. Conclusion: It ain't all that important to know or to think you know everything.
Don't hurt people, if you can help it. Do good when you have the opportunity. Don't think you are better than anyone else. Just everyone play nice.
Thank you for your words. I will be thinking about them for a while.
I want to know everything, but accept the fact that i will never. We will not know how to help ourselves and our fellow man if we dont ask and try to answer questions.
I try to be nice to nice people. I can be gruffy but i really do have a deep love for humanity.
Ed, i dont want to argue and i feel that i dont have to with you because you are apparently rebelling against the jesus/god thing. I thank you for being a rebel against the part of that which may be evil. Since you want to be nice i will struggle to be nice with you. What i want to tell you is not very nice, in some ways i guess, actually it is quite terrifying, especially to an atheist scientist like myself. But I would very much like to tell you something sir. I will not harrass you with it because you say you want to be nice and i think harrassment is not very nice (therfore most evangelicals are not nice people by definition). So i will tell you the shortest version that i can and you can ask me OR NOT ASK ME about it, as you see fit, sir.
I will try to keep it to 10 sentences.
The Universe is in the approximately 47 trillionth year of a total 311 trillion year cycle.
The Earth is 646 Billion years old.
Light gets faster as it gets older.
The moon was brought here by a comet 5 million years ago
144,000 Lyrian Soldiers moarooned themselves here 387,000 years ago
the asteroid belt was a planet that blew itself up 196,000 years ago
Adam was 15 feet tall, a descendant of Giants from the Giant Planet Lyra in the Pleiades
the biblical Flood was 8104 BC and caused by a huge comet
1500 BC this same comet brings Venus to its current orbit
Christ was the reincarnation of Noah, Enoch, Elija, Isiah, Jeremiah
Muhammed was the reicarnation of Jesus whose primary mission was to stop pauline christianity
Christ has returned
He began his ministry in 1975.
I will tell you his name so you can go do your own research if you want. I ask that you do not share this with the Promethius/Skeptical/Allens at this time.
Thank you sir
After finally seeking therapy for issues I have been unable to resolve after coming out of wcg and ucg, I was referred to a great book I'd like to recommend to others...
"12 'Christian' Beliefs That Can Drive You Crazy" by Dr. Henry Cloud & Dr. John Townsend.
For what it's worth...
Thanks again for your website!!
As a former member of the WWCG for 25 years, I can't express to you the impact your site has on me. We lived in denial for so long and were made to feel we were wrong if we questioned anything. I for one fell for everything, hook, line and sinker. I know I will never fully recover in this lifetime, but with help from people who have come through it too, much of the guilt can be eased. I'm grateful to have finally found your site.
Do you know if there are any plans for some kind of class action suit against the church? I never knew how many people suffered the same, exact, fate as my family did. I have horror stories too. My mother was kicked out of the church and died a lonely, sad and broken woman all because she couldn't give up a fifty year smoking habit. My children were abused by an over zealous control freak with the church fully supporting him. Never was any of our abuse reported to the authorities as legally required. I have a lifetime of unbelievable stories.
Thank you again for the time and effort of putting this site together. I know I will come here often.
Yvonne, Thanks for your message and your comments. Good to know that some people are still finding it valuable.
If you would like to contribute some horror stories anonymously or under your name, please do. Sometimes it helps to get it out in the open. And it helps others, just like you, who have had similar experiences. It also exposes these rats for what they really are. It is all about money and power and it is all legal because it is religion. If they really believe any of the crap they put out, they are crazier than the members they suck in.
There has been talk of a class action suit but I don't have a lot of hope for it ever happening. If I hear anything, I will post it, after I sign up.
The whirledwide conglomeration of the united living international global Philadelphian association of branches church of god is proud to offer Their new book.
The missing dimension in un-plain truth and mystery of ages about the Good news unveiled at last in a world held captive.
For your "free" copy, pray real hard, send lots of tithes and offerings, And kiss your ministers butt.
New on 3/9/99:
Hey...thanks for doing what you have done. I was surfing and discovered that I had stuffed a lot of feelings for a lot of years. I am seeking some exit counseling for cult members.
Here are my additions to the You Might Have Grown Up In The Worldwide Church of God If.. page:.
If you know how to translate these Greek/Hebrew terms: Elohim, Naphesh, Agape.
If you have ever wondered whether you were Philadelphian or Laodecian.
If you have ever been involved in absolutely every YOU activity to prove to the minister that you are AC material.
If the only low-cut t-shirt and miniskirt that you ever owned as a teenager were issued to you by your church summer camp and your cheerleading squad.
If you were never allowed to hug a dear friend goodbye at SEP because they were of the opposite sex.
If you ever scored a home run in Bible Baseball by naming the twelve tribes of Israel in birth order.
If you know that sin is the transgression of the law.
Two words: Chag Sameach!
If you have ever written letters to your friends and kept them in your locker at school just in case you were whisked away to Petra.
If you have ever wondered if you were saved (and just what do you mean, salvation?).
If toll-free numbers given at the end of a religious television program send you into a disassociative state.
If you remember a particular toll-free number (800) 423-4444.
If you remember that the Canadian office address was Box 44, Vancouver BC 363G7
If you cannot eat a Temple orange or Indian River Red grapefruit to save your life.
If you know that Ry-Krisp are now unleavened.
If your folks ever called the minister to check to see if they needed to throw out toothpaste during DUB.
If you know what DUB means.
If you ever heard an old man play a piano worth more than your house extremely badly, giving credit to his mother for making him practice.
If you've ever been a 180-lb. teenager in a cheerleading uniform.
If you've ever been told that you have disrespect for authority when you bring a friend from school to a YOU basketball practice.
If you've ever shoveled dead fish on Pelican Lake.
If you've ever been given a notebook by your minister for note-taking purposes.
If those same notes were checked by the minister in your YOU bible study.
If you've had friends kicked out of church because of missing notes.
If you have ever heard your mom say this sentence, "Now, you need to make sure that you come straight home from school so that you can de-leaven your room."
If you've ever had a minister stop a sermon and demand that people to take chewing gum out of their mouths.
If you've ever thought that evangelism meant taking someone to talk to the minister so that he could evaluate whether they might be able to attend church services.
If you've personally known men stationed at the door to services to "keep out subversives."
If you've ever picked up the telephone and heard, "WATS Line, Activate."
If you've ever wondered whether a dead friend was ever really converted, and whether or not they would be in the second or third resurrection.
If you've ever wondered what resurrection you would be in.
If you've ever heard stories by older members about the really conservative days, like when you'd have to call Pasadena to ask if you could buy a car, then told that you are lucky that headquarters has lightened up so much.
If you've ever been told as a fourteen year old that if you have broken one commandment, you have broken all of them, and then wonder about the adultery thing.
If you ever went to your minister about sexual abuse to tell him that you were going to seek psychological counseling only to have him give you a book to read about how psychologists are evil people who will take you away from the truth.
If it has ever struck you that the same German beast power has its national anthem in the hymnal ("Glorious Things of Thee are Spoken).
If you have ever wondered how an old testament prophet, the man who appeared with Christ in the Transfiguration, and an old advertising executive from Des Moines, Iowa could all be the same person?
If you have ever wondered why you can't have new shoes when you need them, but Mr. Armstrong can have a $1,000 suit and a G-3?
If you have ever heard a minister complain about cutting back when he gets a new car every other year instead of every year.
If you've ever been glad to be "back on the right track."
If you've ever been enamored by the fact that Mystery of the Ages was inspired "just like the Bible."
If you've ever wondered what size city you would have when you were God?
If you can still remember all of the books of the Old and New Testament from the memory part of the Youth Bible Lessons.
If, upon graduation from the Youth Bible Lessons, you were rewarded with your very own Correspondence Course.
If you were ever proud to be a Charter member of the Kingdom of God in embryo.
If you ever wondered just how secure a restroom needed to be.
Please have folks contact me. I am healing from this experience just like everyone else. Please print my name and e-mail address with my contribution.
I was so excited to read the Ministerial Apology Page. It was very healing.
I started printing it before I got to the bottom because I want all my family and friends to read it. Almost everything on the list was exactly what we as members lived through. It was so refreshing to realized someone acknowledged our pain and was truly sorry for it.
And then, to get to the bottom and realize only one minister had signed it made my heart sink.
Has anyone ever sent this list to their local ministers. I'd love to shove this in their face personally.
If Mr. Covington has an e-mail address I want to write him to commend his bravery and honesty.
Nobody has ever notified me of their showing the page to their minister or former minster.
David Covington does indeed deserve commendation for his bravery and honesty. All other "ministers" of the Worldwide Church of God or its Daughters deserve our everlasting contempt for the hypocrites that they are, putting love of money and power over the good of the people. And, if they are not hypocrites, if they really believe all the crap they preach, they are to be pitied since they are crazier than the people they abuse and mislead.
David Covington's email address is: email@example.com
I WAS WITH WWCG A LONG TIME. I WENT WITH G.T.A. IN 1980 ITS NOT LIKE WWCG AS FOR TELLING YOU EVERY MOVE TO MAKE. ALL I CAN SAY IS DO AS I HAVE BELIVE WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS AND DO IT AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORREY. HANG IN THERE. MY E-MAIL IS VRPRIDDY@KVNET.ORG
New on 3/12/99:
While I have embraced Christ, I am completely pissed off that a rapist could fool millions and be entertained by royalty.
But, you know, I still believe that each of us have to thoroughly heal and move past what happened to us. If we don't, they won.
I have not forgiven Herbert Armstrong, but, with the help of God, I will be able to eventually have peace about what happened.
I am angry that God was presented to me as a tool for mind control instead of my Creator who wants to love me.
P.S: Do you go from feelings of hatred to sadness to anger to paralysis? I need to know that I am not alone.
To answer your "feelings of hatred to sadness to anger to paralysis" question:
I have to say that I really never had any feelings of hatred. Not any more than I would have for someone who broke into my house and stole something from me. I would want to see them in jail and unable to hurt people anymore. That is not hatred.
Anger and feelings of betrayal, yes. I guess having my webpage and being able to expose these con-men for what they really are has been therapeutic for me. Knowing that they are still making money off of people's fear of death and desire to serve God, makes me sick. I do hope that there is a God who will hold them responsible for all the evil and deception that they do in His name.
I would put all "religious leaders" in two categories:
1. Those who are just as ignorant as the people that they attempt to lead, (the blind leading the blind).
2. Those who know that religion is just one big con-job and are willing to use it for their own purposes.
Please lay down your bitterness and forgive. That is the only way we can go on with our lives and grow spiritually. I grew up in WWCG. Sure, there are scars. Sure, we were taught wrong. But, if we hold on to the bitterness -we are constantly throwing salt in our wounds.
I am greatful for the friends I made (and still have) while attending the Feast of Tabernacles. I am greatful that I had emotional support system I needed because of an alcoholic parent and broken home. I am greatful that, even by this "cult," I was saved from suicide and drugs. I know I am lucky to say such things. However, human nature draws us to dwell on the negatives-in every aspect of life.
We are strong people, we made choices. WWCG ministers, followers, ect... are but human, who made choices. They will have to answer to the Lord for those choices. But, we just as much of hypocrites as they if we cannot forgive, and ask for their repentence and forgiveness.
We are to love one another as Christ loves us--even those who hurt and betray us. It's harder to do than say-but many of us who have found peace with our past WWCG "imprisonment" -know it easier with time and effort.
With love and encouragement,
To: Mission Frontiers:
After reading your article at http://www.missionfrontiers.org/mj9810.htm I wonder what your attitude would be to the Worldwide Church of God if you had been a member and had them screw up your whole life and then throw you away?
This was an abusive church that destroyed the lives of an uncountable amount of people in the name of God. Now they are selling off the properties that many of these same people sacrificed their lives and families to pay for.
Instead of using the proceeds of the sales for helping these people that their organization is responsible hurting and destroying, they are going to use it for the retirement fund for the remaining ministers. So the men that participated in and were paid to abuse people are going to now sit on their butts and be funded by this "old money" and further abuse these people mentally.
So, in the Worldwide Church of God's new-found "Christianity" is it okay to make a mess of thousands of people's lives and then just walk away and not clean up the mess you are responsible for? If that is Christianity, I want nothing to do with it.
Here is a link to some of the horror stories the Worldwide Church of God is responsible for: horror.htm
Here is a link to a page describing what some of those hurt members would like the Worldwide Church of God to apologize for: apology.htm
Here is a link to a webpage that I made where I have never gotten a response from any minister in the Worldwide Church of God. I think they are too ashamed of themselves.samaritan_bad.htm
New on 3/13/99:
In reading for 4 hours last night until the wee hours of the morning I found it hard to digest it all.
I found a couple things particularly interesting. The narcissistic personality disorder and how you could see that as a characteristic of those drawn into the Worldwide Church of God as well as in Herbert W. Armstrong. The vanity of thinking you were super duper special, etc. Also the part about the Jewish man confronting the Nazi in the courtroom and the realization that under different circumstances he could have been as wicked as the Nazi was and THAT ugliness made him faint.
Pretty amazing. We all might have been Herbert W. Armstrong's under different circumstances. I was touched by your conversation with Mr. Miller about your wife dying. Also it made sense that the ministers were taught arrogance as I saw that clearly from our first Feast back in 1984. It all makes perfect sense now, like the pieces of a puzzle.
I must admit that I LOVE a lot of the doctrine of the old Worldwide Church of God such as no Christmas, the beauty of the sacred calendar, the honoring of the husband (I'm a wife who has seen this work in our family), the wife picturing the church, and for what it's worth the anointing worked for me on 4 occasions, tithing at least on gross, etc.
I see that Herbert W. Armstrong was rifled with problems. Some of his message made sense to me, obviously. I won't throw that out with the bathwater. There was and is something to it even though a very troubled man was involved.
What do you think?
Hope you find something that benefits you on the PT. Any pages that do not have my name on them somewhere are the work of someone else, such as the narcissistic personality disorder page. I think that is Mr. Renehan's.
Regarding the ritual and traditions, they do seem to have an appeal to people, especially if they think they are doing them to please or appease God; look at the Catholics. Once I saw that the ritual and traditions are merely the inventions of human beings and not from God, any appeal they may have had to me evaporated very quickly.
As far as the wife honoring the husband, if that works for you, fine. Maybe it is kind of like appeasing an angry God who is going to kill you forever if you don't have the right religion and do the right things. I'm sure it doesn't work where the husband is not worthy of honor and only sees your honor of him as your weakness and his superiority. But, then again, maybe it works where the husband is, indeed, worthy of honor and sees your honor as your weakness and subservience to his superiority. I think it works even better where the husband and wife honor each other equally. Imagine that. But, the subservience of women does come directly from the Bible and those that believe it is God's word must submit to it or be rebels.
As far as ol' herbie being right about some things, I can't think of any that are important. But, as the saying goes: "Even a blind squirrel will find some nuts." Herbie found a lot of nuts, myself included, enough to enable him to live like a rich man and feel very important.
New on 3/14/99:
Thanx for producing this site...I have learned a lot ... especially from the Chuck Gerringer letter to Mr. Hunting. Never knew about that. I have generally tried to keep up with news and info on the WWCG over the years since I was put out in 1986. But this is the best site.
I was put out of the wwcg for coming to see clearly and preaching and teaching that the real problem in the church was self-hate which led to hatred of others which led to more hatred etc. So I began to correct myself with love. And I began to preach and teach that Self-love was the solution for the sin of self-hate. This was done from the inside and to help as many people as I could. I realized that I was taking a chance with my vocation in the church, my career, etc but I figured if God wanted me in no one could get me out, and if He wanted me out no one could keep me in. When the hierarchy found out and couldn't reconcile it with their strong belief in self-hate, and I wouldn't give up my new found belief, I got my answer: God wanted me out.
I did not then and do not now blame the wwcg for not having the total right attitude of Love and Respect that they were not given, nor for not doing what they didn't know and still don't know.
So, Ed, when I go back to my beginning contact with the wwcg, I blame me: it was my problem of self-hate for being wrong that made me willingly give up my freedom of thought to let others do my thinking for me in order to make me right in order to love myself. Due to that self-hate and self-disrespect, I checked nearly all my brains at the door: all these ministers and all these members there before me who had proved everything couldn't be wrong, etc. But they were and I was: no one ever suggested repenting of the sin of Hate and Disrespect in attitude and spirit to being wrong, being fools, being Catholics, being Jews, being etc. No, we were allowed and encouraged to hate and to disrespect whoever and whatever we wanted as long as we DID right! Hate the pig and hate that pork, as long as you DID right by not eating pork. Keep the sabbath out of hate for sundaykeepers!
We were always right in the hateful attitude: the very attitude that made our good totally wrong and so evil-spoken of! But that hateful attitude fit right in with my addicted attitude of hate I had brought in from the world and which was in and of the world from which we were trying to flee. We were trying to flee the world but not its attitude of hate and Disrespect. We were going to keep that. That's why we each and all of us were responsible for our little parts in corrupting with Hate and Disrespect the organization we all were a part of, and still are responsible for it now that we are back where we all started from.
At least I could never understand what Paul was talking about in 1 Corin 13 about if you did this or that but had no love.... To DO the right thing was Love, wasn't it? Nor Luke 18: 9: The parable about those who did right but DESPISED others.
So Ed, as the member I was at first and as the member-minister I was at the end, for the wrong attitude of hating and disrespecting myself as others which led me to hate and disrespect others as myself, I repent to God. And for anything I said or did in that wrong attitude of Hate and Disrespect, I now in love and respect also repent to God and do humbly apologize to everyone now in and now out of the wwcg. Also out of Love and Respect for all, I totally and unreservedly forgive anyone for any Hate and Disrespect they had for me, and I forgive all for anything which they thought, said or did against me.
And in that attitude of Love and Respect, I would like to humbly suggest that the list on this site for ministers also include the word 'members' for members.
The reason is clear, Ed: all of us were involved:
we all ignorantly and unwittingly aided and abetted each other's wrong attitude: minister to member, member to minister, member to member and minister to minister. which is the primary cause of all the wrong actions.
Each member is a minister to him or herself.
Now there is surely a greater degree of responsibility as ministers, but as we found out at the end in the end, no degree of power a minister nor ministers nor the whole wwcg with ministers, members and all could stop you and me and anyone member from holding our ground once when we had decided to choose to do so, come disfellowshipment or whatever.
Also remember who were more in number: the ministers or the members? And so who were the people who willfully and willingly in Hate and Disrespect carried out the marking announcements, etc and who because of their number had more opportunity to carry out the sentence to avoid you, pretend not to see you and wouldn't speak to you on the street or wherever, and etc?
Ed, if that suggestion is implemented, it would help so many more people who frequent your site and who are still carrying out the mistaken attitude of H & D we had before wwcg, which attitude of H & D we had more indelibilized in the wwcg by the wwcg and us, and which attitude of H & D resulted and results in the policy of blaming everybody else except ourselves for decisions that each of us participated in.
The reason why that blame-game idea dies so hard, Ed, is simply because that is the result of the the very idea of Hate and Disrespect for being wrong we all had before the wwcg, and which is why each of us willingly allowed the wwcg to exploit: for us to feel good: we were the only right church people and everybody else was wrong and so to be blamed!
Yeah, we were a part of that world, but our parts were minor, it was that pope or some world leader or satan who was really to blame.
If I hate myself as wrong, when I am wrong I am going to be in a hateful attitude, then I am going to deny it and lie about it to myself and then to others, and if and when I have to admit that I am wrong, I am going to blame others or circumstances or whatever or anything else and any one else except me for my mistakes. If I hate myself as wrong, when I am right and you are wrong I am going to hate and disrespect you as myself. If I love myself as right and wrong, when I am wrong, I will still be in the right attitude of Love and Respect, and so I will admit my wrong, and go on.
If I love myself as right and as wrong, then when I am right and you are wrong, I will still love and respect you as myself, and in that attitude of L & R get you to take yourself first not to the wrong you did, but first to the only first base there is: that of Loving and respecting yourself as right and as wrong, that the first sin is to hate you as wrong or as any word. Then in that repentant attitude of godly Love never to be repented of, you will admit and move on, never to repeat again.
To get someone to repent of an action without getting them to change their attitude of the sin of Hate simply means that they are going to repeat the action simply because they are back to the status quo ante: the same sinful attitude which caused the first action is still there. So one guess as to if they will repeat the same or similar action.
What would the world say and do now if we, now back in the world, were to ask the world in the figures of our families who were always against the wwcg all along, to repent and to sign up for their part in allowing us to go into the wwcg?
The first thing they would rightly say was:
That was your decision!
Now the whole truth is that to the extent they were hateful to us, we were driven away by that hate, but only because we hated haters, and so we ended with the real haters like ourselves! So it takes two with the implicit, hidden agreement to hate ourselves. But my part is my responsibility, and their part is theirs.
Hope that this is not too long nor involved. Keep up the good work. And if I can ever be of any help, please be sure to let me know
100% Love and Respect,
Gordon Godfrey Harry
Sorry, but I have a very hard time following your logic about hate and love. I never joined wcg because of any hatred for anyone. I joined because they had the answers to all the questions about the purpose of life and especially because they even gave hope that everyone would, indeed, be saved in the end. No other church I had ever heard of ever gave me answers like that, even though they were wrong.
Your trying to say that members owe someone an apology is appropriate but not on my apology page. They owe personal apologies I have personally apologized to my sons and my family. I also apologize to the whole human race by rejecting all religion since they are all exclusionist and divisive and ungodly.
I did not know many hateful people in the church. I think they were all basically good people. Yes, we are to blame for being stupid. The ministry is to blame for misusing stupid people. They are more culpable.
To say that we should have held our ground as members is to reject the reality that standing your ground would mean that you would miss out on God's Kingdom and any afterlife. There was no ground for a truebeliever to stand on. Our job was to worship the ground that the ministry walked on. Anyone who truly believed in the teachings of the church knew that we never really had an option of standing our ground.
We as members were more in number? What did that ever have to do with it? They had God on their side. Who can stand against God? When we were interviewed for membership we were asked if we would submit to their authority. If we had not answered yes, like fools, we would have not been members of God's one and only true church.
Did you miss that sermon : "Its all about government?"
So, are you saying you want to sign the Apology list as a former minister?
A. I am so sorry that I no longer feel qualified to preach
B. I'm sorry but MY God is so weak that he needs ME to do His work for Him.
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