Shootout With Grant Spong
The following email exchange took place in March of 2001. Former WCG minister Grant Spong initiated it with a request that his name be removed from the "Hall of Shame" on this website. The rest followed automatically.
3/5/01
Hi,
Since I have been unkindly thrown away by Worldwide Church of God, tossed
out of service like a piece of unwanted garbage, and am
no longer one of their pastors, you may wish to take me
off your list.
Blessings, Grant Spong.
REPLY:
Perhaps you
would like to apologize to all those whose lives were
screwed up by yourself or by those you endorsed and
supported, by signing the Apology Page? Then your name
can be removed.
Would you still
be working for them if they hadn't thrown you away? If
so, then that is not exactly the repentant attitude that
we are looking for.
Editor
REPLY:
Hi,
I'm sorry you feel that way. You are not my judge. You
don't know my heart. You don't know that I preached
strongly that HWA was a false prophet, that Worldwide Church of God was a
cult, and that I would refuse to preach any
Armstrongism. Perhaps that is why I am no longer a
pastor with Worldwide Church of God. Perhaps my messages were too direct and
blunt for some. All of us were deceived. You don't know
the pain we suffered. You only seem to assume that
members suffered at the hand of pastors, not the other
way around. Yet, many of us (pastors and lay members)
who worked for reform within the church suffered at the
hands of others. There were those of us who apologized
to our congregations for our sins, and remained and
worked for change from within. There were lay members
who apologized to their pastors. However, I am still
waiting for some to apologize who tried to destroy our
lives the past few years. I doubt that will happen, so
like Jesus who died for us before we repented, I have
chosen to forgive them even though they may not have yet
repented. As for my sins? I have chosen other forums to
apologize for my sins, and of course I confess to God in
private. I have preached apologies and written private
letters of apology. I do not choose a priest, a
confession booth, or even your forum. All three seem to
be in the same category and it just seems wrong. Thank
you anyway. Sorry for the trouble. Go ahead and keep
your little list. As for me and my household, we choose
to forgive and erase all such sins against us.
Blessings, Grant
REPLY:
Yes, I am your judge since I
have seen no evidence that any God is going to right any
of your wrongs or protect me from being misled by you.
Also, since religion is a legal con-game, there is no
governmental protection from this scam.
Since I can't look at
your heart, and I trust no god to do it, I will look at
your actions and judge from them.
On the negative side:
1. You were a minister:
Immediate cause for concern.
2. You were a minister
for a cult, not exactly credentials that certify you as
being able to help people heal from cultic damage.
3. You may still consider
yourself a minister, just unemployed. You may still be
trying to find another job in this profession.
On the positive side:
1.
You preached against
herbie.
2. You preached that Worldwide Church of God
was a cult and would refuse to preach any Armstrongism.
3. You say you have
apologized in person and in letters. (Are you sure that
you got to everyone?)
Until you withdraw from
any further "preaching" and apologize for ever being a
minister of Armstrongism, and publicly apologize for
supporting this organization that did so much damage in
people's lives, you must remain in The Hall of Shame. If
you ministers that have been "trashed" by this business
cannot do a proper apology and proper repentance, then
just who the hell can? Do you really think that those
who are still drawing paychecks from this organization
and hoping to divide up the loot for their own
retirements are going to apologize to you?
It is believing this crap
about forgiving everyone without their even being
repentant that leaves you Christians wide open for scam
artists, such as the Worldwide Church of God, taking
advantage of you. It makes the world no better to allow
bad people to get away with doing bad things. You are
erasing nothing more than your responsibility to right
wrongs and, in so doing, protect others from being taken
advantage of also.
You and your house are
doing nothing more than enabling those who do wrong in
the name of god.
I'm sorry you feel that
way.
Editor
See coat_of_lies_2 for ministerial defenses for their lack of accountability.
Hi again,
You're right, my name remains in the
hall of
shame, as does that of all Christians and their
churches. All Christians are wrong and all churches are
cults to one degree or another. All churches are abusive
and in desperate need of someone to pay the penalty for
their sins. The churches do not save anyone from their
sins. Thankfully, we have a God who loved us so much
that he died for us. Sadly, you don't even have that at
the present time because you reject it. What you don't
understand is that you too have screwed up royally,
deeply hurt some people's lives and desperately need to
apologize. What you also don't understand is that you
don't need to carry the guilt any more, because a
substitute carries it for you and me, leaving us both
uncondemned and without shame. You cannot condemn that
which no longer carries condemnation in the highest
court in the universe. In the end all the damage you and
I have done will be undone. There is no other way. God
does exist, and he loves you. He does not condemn you or
me for our pasts, but seeks to heal and erase the pain.
Blessings, Grant.
REPLY:
Well, it is very
convenient for you to put all the blame on someone you
cannot even prove ever existed, and, if you could prove
he existed, cannot prove was ever a "god" or ever had
any power to forgive your sins. Even if you had a god
that could forgive your "sins" that is "his"
forgiveness, not mine. If you have offended me, I will
decide whether you are forgiven or not. I will decide
whether I will accept a stand-in for the payment of your
offences. You can't just walk away from a traffic
accident that you caused and say you put the blame on
Jesus.
What does it teach a
person if he can do anything he wants, get caught, and
have someone else pay the penalty? But, that is what
makes Christianity so attractive, isn't it? "Uncondemned
and without shame" describes you and your fellow
minister types. Rape, pillage, steal, kill, lie, doesn't
matter; you are forgiven. The perfect crime. Thank you
JESUS!
Your Christian fantasies
and fairy tales do not wash with someone who is not a
Christian. And, there is much more proof available that
there is no god that cares one little shit about
humanity than that there is one. See the
"Acts of God" page.
Editor
REPLY:
Hi,
Proof? There are various schools of thought on that
score. Modern "proof" tends to be either legal,
scientific or empirical. Historically, there are the
Greek philosophical schools of thought and their various
proof techniques. Other western schools of thought
throughout the ages were based to some degree or other
on the Greeks. Of course the orientals had their own
ideas of proof as well. The bottom line in all that is
that proof is only what you or I will accept. As one
professor of mine once said, proof is "what it takes to
convince you." One man looks at a blade of grass and
knows there is a God. Another examines everything a
lifetime of education in all fields could teach and
remains a skeptic. I guess that you are in the latter
category.
I have enjoyed our brief interactions. If you want to
discuss this further, I am happy to do so. I don't mind
that we disagree. Disagreement can be stimulating and
helpful if handled well. We disagree in some fundamental
areas, but I have tried to look past your roughness and
consider the substance of what you said. It has been
interesting. For now I will close our discussion with a
little humor: Did you know that God doesn't believe in
atheists?
Blessings, Grant
REPLY:
YOU WROTE:
Did you know that God doesn't believe in
atheists?
REPLY:
Well, I am not an Atheist. I am Agnostic, which means I
don't know. And those of you that think you know only
deceive yourselves.
I do know one thing: I
can prove that Atheists exist. Neither one of us can
prove that a caring, concerned God exists. We can wish
it. We can hope it. We can have blind faith in it. But
all the evidence points to an uncaring, uninvolved god.
Frankly, I'm getting
tired of this. Have a good life.
Editor
REPLY:
Oh, I didn't realize you were agnostic. That's
okay. Let me make one last suggestion if I may. Try
reading "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel (1998,
Harper Collins, Zondervan) a legal approach to proof,
and perhaps also "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" by
Josh McDowell (1979, Nelson) a more scientific and
statistical approach.
Thank you for your well wishes. I wish you a nice life
too.
Blessings, Grant
REPLY:
And I would suggest that you read "The
Age of Reason" by Thomas Paine and
"The God Part of the
Brain" by Matthew Alper.
But you won't do it and I
have read enough apologies for the lack of proof for the
existence of Jesus.......
Editor
Dier Editor!
I vas chust reading der letter from Grant Sponge! You know, der minister from der Vorldvide Church of Gott! I tink he makes a ferry gut point!
I vas also trown avay! I vas a member of der SS during
der great Vorld Var Two, und I suffered many hardships
during dat time. Ve vere totally misunderstood! Ve vere
only following ordersss! Ve tried to do our duty to Gott
and der vorld! Und now dere are vebstites all over der
vorld dat condemn us for our faithful dedication!
But you are not my judge! You haf no right to accuse me
or criticize me for der tings dat I did! I haf already
apologized to many of der Juice dat I shot und gassed
und hanged! I haf apologized to dem on my knees at
nacht, und I know many udder SS men who haf done der
same ting! But haf any of der Juice ever apologized to
us? NEIN!!!
I am still vaiting for der Juice to apologize to ME!!!
After all, I tought I vas doing der right ting! I vas a
fictim chust like dem! Vat right do any of you haf to
judge me? You do not know mein heart! You do not know
dat I vonce told a bad joke about der Furer!!! I haf
suffered many tings from der Juice, but I haf forgiven
dem, even though most of dem are dead.
Heil Hitler!
OberSturmGruppenFurer#$%&*&%&$$%$%^%$^ John B
Forwarded to Grant Spong.
From: gspong
To: Email
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 4:57 AM
Subject: Re: A reader of the PT hit the nail on the
head. Better duck!
Your comparison is unfair and biased. You act as
if you have never committed any evil in your life, yet
that cannot be true.
However, let's look at your atrocity analogy, even
though I disagree with its exaggerated implications.
But, let's not just pick on the Germans as if they are
the only ones who ever committed an atrocity. This is a
typical ploy -the other guys were the bad guys, not us.
Why did America bomb German towns -many contained only
women and children? That was a war crime in my book. Why
do the once victims of the holocaust now commit so many
atrocities against someone else? And, the Palestinians
also commit atrocities. Why do Americans criticize
Germany or Indonesia or Cambodia and yet avoid the shame
of their own history? Do you criticize my past, but
avoid the shame of your own? Europeans who invaded North
and South America have committed perhaps the greatest
atrocity of history in destroying 90-98% of American
Indians. What justification can you muster for north
Americans participating in the kidnapping and
enslavement of Irish, Ukranian and eventually African
people? What justification can you muster for the
persecution of Chinese and Spanish minorities, or the
murder of unborn children?
Let's carry your analogy further. The Japanese were
wrong in bombing Pearl Harbor, but were we then right in
dropping atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? No, it
too was a war crime of the greatest magnitude and
against civilian populations. The justification is
often: "you committed the first act, so we are right in
committing a similar one." Is that your justification
now in bombing other people with defamation and slander?
No, you are not justified. They were wrong, and now you
are wrong, but in Jesus you can be made right.
Your can be free of your painful past. God loves you. He
is not an absentee God. He helped you win the greatest
race of your life against millions of other sperm cells.
You won, and your gift was a life. Since then he was
with you creating a body that now incorporates billions
of copies of the original single cell. He gives your
heart every beat, and despite the pain you experienced
in a stupid cult, he knows you really wanted to please
him. Like a son who brought his loving father a gift he
didn't ask for nor need, God respects your past efforts
even though much of it was unnecessary. God didn't ask
for a Sabbath, but you gave him one to show him your
love. How you are in pain. God knows your pain, and how
it expresses itself in anger and bitterness, but he
still loves you and gives you trees to look at and a
heart that beats. My friend, he does exist, not as a
loud radio preacher, but as a still and soft voice
waiting for you to listen.
Blessings, Grant
REPLY:
Well now Grant, I'm sure John will respond and
you will have made a new friend but...............
You seem to be saying
that, since other people have done bad things, it
excuses all the things that you inflicted on your fellow
cult members. Not so. There are degrees of
responsibility. John was simply pointing out the
ridiculousness of your position. What you ministers did
to people far exceeds what any of us EVER did, if you
want to make comparisons. The really amazing thing is to
see your denial and the turning around and pointing at
the very people you and your cronies were responsible
for virtually destroying their lives and putting the
blame back on them because they haven't apologized to
you. Incredible.
It is interesting that
you continue to make the comparisons to war crimes to
justify your own crimes against humanity. I justify NONE
of them and put YOU and your CRONIES in the same pot
with them and you can all boil together. If only there
were a Hell so there would be some type of punishment
for all you and your kind have done. But don't worry,
Jesus will forgive you and you can live forever with Him
while those you have damaged will rot in Hell for our
lack of blind forgiveness.
Your mindless spouting of
the "God loves you" crap shows just how little touch you
have with reality. Go to the
Acts of God page and show me god's love for these
millions of people some of whom you even reference. Then
I will believe in a caring god. I don't say that there
is no god. I say that, if there is a god, he is an eight
year old god and we are his science project. He cares no
more for us than does a little kid pulling the wings off
of flies.
Before you spout off your
mindless memorized mouthings about how God cares so much
for all of us poor fools writhing in endless bitterness,
perhaps you would like to offer some PROOF to back up
your statements. Hmmmmmmmm???????? Well, I guess I will
not hold my breath for that since we both know that the
only proof that you have is your blind faith. And that
faith and $1.50 will buy you a cup of coffee.
Yeah, we won the sperm
race and now we are winning the race away from you and
your brothers in crime as you wallow in your self pity
and self righteousness and lack of true repentance. You
wouldn't know what humbleness or repentance were if they
hit you over the head.
Editor
REPLY:
I am not a murderer John. Don't put me in that category.
You compare me to a murderous Nazi because I joined a cult like you did. We were both fools not murderers. Should I now compare you to those same Nazis or others who murdered Christians because you now fight against Christianity? The comparisons are ludicrous. Your analogy is stupid, illogical and ridiculous.
Blessings, Grant.
REPLY:
I am not John
and I do not call you a murderer but what you and your
cronies did was and is in the spirit of murder. Deaths,
many deaths, occurred because of this system that you
were a leader in. People committed suicide because of
your or your administration's decisions and teachings.
You are responsible.
Lives were changed
negatively because of what you and your cronies did. You
ruined lives. You changed lives, irretrievably. You did,
in effect "murder" all those that would have been born
if you had not intervened with your negative input into
people's lives. You don't seem to understand the
immensity of what you are responsible for.
As I have said before, it
is a wonder that more of you guys are not committing
suicide but it is probably more a credit for the
selection process for you "ministers" that weeded out
all those that might have a conscience.
Editor
REPLY:
How many lives are being ruined by what you are
doing? How many want to commit suicide because of what
you have done? Certainly you are right, my ministry was
in many ways worthless, but I know of none who committed
suicide by what I personally did. It is illogical to
lump us all together simply because the theology was not
orthodox. Rather, my ministry saved several from
suicide.
As far as orthodoxy and heresy are concerned, I believe
heresy is just a minority opinion. The problem I have
with Christianity is not God or Jesus, but human abuses
which are rife throughout. The disagreement I have with
you is not that Christianity has so little grace, but
that outside of Christianity there is no grace at all.
You are being dishonest. You don't just lable
Armstrongism as cult-like but all Christianity. I don't
accept your argument that on the one hand Armstrongism
caused people problems, but the rest of Christianity did
not. Rather Christianity period, has a lot to answer for
over two thousand years of wrongful persecutions and
corruption. You say Christianity is wrong; I say it is
wrong, but for different reasons. You say it is
fundamentally wrong as a concept; I say the concept is
right but Christians are wrong.
Grant
REPLY:
And to think that those such as yourself were
given the responsibility to counsel troubled members and
potential members.........
I hope that I
have ruined many lives of the "ministry" by making them
get off the gravy train and go out and get honest jobs.
If anyone committed suicide because they read The
Painful Truth, they did it because they found out the
truth about the Worldwide Church of God and its corrupt,
dysfunctional ministry. If any have done that, it is
regrettable, but I think the blame lies with those who
misled not those who tell the truth. I would rather
think that many more have found truth and freedom
preferable to lies and slavery.
Just because
you do not accept my point that ALL Christianity is a
cult does not make me dishonest. I also never said that
the rest of Christianity did not do horrible things. I
have said that that fact does not give YOU an excuse to
do the same things. You know what? I don't think you can
read very well.
Now, as I said
before, I have grown tired of corresponding with you
since I can't seem to penetrate your mindless defenses,
religiously built up over the years and blindly vomited
out at any who disagree with you. I will no longer be
responding to any further email from you.
You may respond
to John B. if you wish, if and when he decides to answer
you.
I also note
that you are no longer "blessing" me. THANKS. I've
received enough blessings from your kind to last me a
lifetime.
Editor
REPLY
from John B.:
UnterSturmFuerer
Sponge,
Please pay attention! You
do not listen very well.
You claim you preached
against Herbert Armstrong; perhaps, but you certainly
learned his tactics very well. His finest ploy when
brainwashing people was to address a subject, then
divert attention to something else so that the matter at
hand is overlooked. You did that to me. Notice:
You wrote:
let's not just pick on the Germans as if
they are the only ones who ever committed an atrocity.
This is a typical ploy -the other guys were the bad
guys, not us.
Now what the hell does
this have to do with anything I said? Huh? Although I
find your anti-American bias to be revealing, your
paragraph about U.S. atrocities, aside from being
laughable, is totally irrelevant. After your tirade, you
finished with:
Is that your justification now in bombing
other people with defamation and slander? No, you are
not justified. They were wrong, and now you are wrong,
but in Jesus you can be made right.
I didn't defame you! I
took your side! As one Nazi to another, I completely
understand how you feel! (Okay, I was making a point,
and a good one. The point is, as you know very well,
that any remorse you claim to feel is worthless unless
you do something about it. "I'm sorry" is not too much
to ask, if you do nothing else. The question is, Are you
man enough to say it?)
You wrote:
despite the pain you experienced in a
stupid cult,
Ah, so you admit that it
is a cult. How wonderful. You were a part of that cult,
too. You still would be, apparently, except they "threw
you away". Your refusal to admit any culpability tells
me that you see nothing wrong with your actions. Only
following orders, right?
You wrote:
God didn't ask for a Sabbath, but you
gave him one to show him your love.
Wrong. A flamethrower was
placed at my head and I was forced to keep the Sabbath.
That flamethrower, they said, was loaded with fire and
brimstone, and it would bring death for all eternity. I
really had no choice. But I'm sure you never gave a
sermon about a "commanded assembly", did you?
You wrote:
How you are in pain.
Let me think-No. My pain
ended the day I led my family toward the barbed wire,
ducked under the searchlights, and crawled three hundred
yards to safety. That was nine years ago, and I have
been without pain ever since. Lots of fear, followed by
rage, but those have faded, too. You see,
UnterSturmFuerer, time does heal [not all, but many]
wounds. As much as you would like to believe I am one of
those "most miserable people on the face of the earth",
it just ain't true. A lot of others are still suffering,
but I am not.
You wrote:
God knows your pain,
So does Bill Clinton. He
feels it. But he still stole half my paycheck in taxes
and he will continue to live off my taxes for the rest
of his natural life. Just as Worldwide ministers
sponge off
members' tithe money while they
grant them
crumbs of forgiveness.
And, finally, this:
Blessings, Grant.
Same to you, pal.
Actually, you really are
in a tough spot, aren't you? Thrown out of the cult,
lost your paycheck. You are accustomed to speaking with
authority and none dare contradict you. But now you've
lost that, too. Your biblical knowledge and speaking
ability are worthless now. You have been removed from
the guard tower, your guns are empty, your penis is
misfiring, and you are facing the survivors -naked. Not
a pretty place to be. You are the one who is
hurting, my friend. You are in a lot of pain, and the
only weapons you know how to use have been rendered
useless.
So what do you do now?
Lash out like a cat whose tail is caught in the fan
belt? Claw and spit and curse and foam at the mouth as
those hollow-eyed survivors who rightfully confront you
with your past slowly close the circle around you? Or do
you, perhaps for the first time in your life, take a
personal inventory, examine yourself, and try to
come to grips with the painful truth?
Look, Grant, I don't hate
you. I'm not even mad at you. I didn't seek you out. You
came to us, remember? But since you brought it up, I
spent forty years of my life under Armstrong's terrorist
regime. That's four decades, Grant. Forty years in
captivity, from age four to age forty-four. I never
joined of my own volition. My mother raised me in the
cult and I thought Mom was the smartest person in the
world. She told me she had proved it, and she was a
whole lot smarter than I was. So I believed it, too.
Imagine my horror when I found out the whole thing had
been a waste of time. Imagine my anger when I realized I
had wasted over half my life. Imagine my regret when I
thought of the tens of thousands of dollars I had
wasted, leaving my children without many of the things
that would have made their lives better. And imagine, if
you are able, how I feel when you, a card-carrying
member of the totalitarian regime that did all that do
me, sit back and tell me to forgive, that it doesn't
matter, that Jesus will fix everything.
You, personally, have
never harmed me. I never even heard of you. But you were
part of the system. You didn't do it to me, but you did
it to others. I imagine there are several hundred people
to whom you owe apologies. On your knees, Grant, with
tears in your eyes. If you are a real man, you will seek
them out and beg their forgiveness. "Go and sin no
more", remember? And make restitution, even if only
verbally.
You told the Editor that
he is not your judge. That's debatable, but I seem to
recall something in the Bible that said every man would
be judged according to his works. So I don't judge you,
but your works speak volumes (and so does your
attitude).
One last thing, Grant:
your little rant about Allied atrocities against the
Germans and Japanese was very interesting, but just
remember this -those acts were committed by people who
were trying to free the world, not enslave it. Be
careful with those analogies, or they may reveal more
about your character than you would have anyone know.
Sieg Heil.
John B
3/18/01
REPLY from Grant Spong
From: <gspong@juno.com
John, You learned HWA's tactics better than I,
you ass. Look at yourself. Wasting your life attacking
something you supposedly left. You're not doing anything
effective. If you left it, you left it, but you haven't.
You're still wallowing in self-pity and vengeance. Get
on with your life man.
Further mail blocked...
REPLY
Grant,
Well, you certainly know how to hurt a
guy. I'm crushed.
Even though you have blocked further
communication, I will take the time from my wallowing
and suffering and attacking to respond to your eloquent
and Christlike communication.
Yes, I did learn HWA's tactics quite
well. I was a victim of them for forty years. I imagine
that many Jews in the death camps also learned Hitler's
tactics very well, if they lived long enough. But that
didn't make them the bad guys, did it? They were not the
ones with the power over their enemies. And neither was
I.
But you were.
I've never met you, Grant, and I don't
know the first thing about you, your habits, your
personality. But from your emails I can deduce quite a
lot. First of all, you are walking under a tremendous
load of guilt. It's eating you alive from the inside
out, but you are so deep in denial that you refuse to
admit that guilt is what you really feel.
Second, you feel terribly helpless and
alone. You contacted the Painful Truth to get your name
removed from the Hall of Shame. (I remind you once
again, Grant, you contact us, not the
other way around.) But you are not willing to face up to
your past and offer a simple apology. Rather, you want
us to apologize to you! How patently
fucking absurd!
Third, (and this opinion is based solely
on your letters), you appear to be a bully. For however
many years you were in the ministry you were DA MAN! No
one could touch you. No one could argue with you. No one
could disagree with you. No one could disobey you. You
had the ultimate power, and anyone who disobeyed you was
put to "death". You are used to winning, aren't you? You
have no concept of give and take, of playing fair. You
simply do not play well with others. And now you waltz
into our living room and expect to start spitting orders
that we will follow to the letter.
You really hate the Nazi analogy, don't
you? Maybe that's because it is such a perfect fit.
Nothing illuminates Worldwide tactics better than a
close look at Nazi Germany. And why not? Armstrong
admired Hitler. Hoeh was reportedly a Nazi sympathizer.
And the ministry was trained in blind obedience, exactly
like the SS was. Authoritarian, totalitarian despotism
from the top down, pyramid style, with the people
underneath all that crushing weight. You were part of
the pyramid, Grant. In your heart, I believe you still
are.
And just like the defeated Nazis, you
blame others. "It vasn't my fault! I had to kill all
dose Juice! I didn't hate dem, but I had to do it!"
You know what, Grant? Any murdering,
raping, pillaging asshole can oppress other people, but
it takes a real man to apologize.
You know what else? It doesn't hurt. It
doesn't cost anything. It doesn't even take very long.
How much breath does it take to say "I'm sorry"? And
after you do, it feels really good!
Bad people never apologize. Guilty people
never apologize. Satan never apologizes.
And apparently, neither will you.
John B
I hope that responses to Grant aren't getting too old
for you. Here one of about five from me:
Dear Grant - Former
Minister of Fraud,
You wrote:
The justification is often: "you committed the first
act, so we are right in committing a similar one." Is
that your justification now in bombing other people with
defamation and slander? No, you are not justified. They
were wrong, and now you are wrong, but in Jesus you can
be made right.
It again needs to be pointed out that defamation of
character is to tell LIES about someone. If what is
being said is TRUE, you are NOT defaming that person.
You are simply sharing what may be useful information to
other would-be suckers.
Think about it. There are laws regarding slander. Do you
believe for a moment that the leadership of the various
Armstrong cults would not take the editors of the
Painful Truth and before that, the Ambassador Report to
court to obtain an injunction to stop publication if
they could prove that what is being written is actually
lies?
Do you honestly believe those religious barracudas are
"turning the other cheek" because they believe it is the
Christian thing to do? Unlikely. More than likely, it is
because there is no way in hell the church's of god want
their filthy business laundry exposed to the light of
day in court.
Think about it. They would have to prove in court that
there have never been financial improprieties,
hypocritical sexual misconduct; medical counseling that
resulted in an unnecessary premature death, verbal abuse
from the pulpit that resulted in suicide, and on and on
it would go. There would be so many people lined up as
witnesses willing to testify against them it would be a
media circus!
If anything that has been written in the Painful Truth
that you believe to be slander, the challenge for you is
to PROVE IT!
You said "and now you are wrong" for openly discussing
the pain and suffering inflicted upon the laity by the
church that you were a minister of and accepted healthy
paychecks from for many years. Why are we wrong for
openly discussing our sorrows? Does it make you feel
uncomfortable? If so, why? Is it because what is being
said is a lie, or what is being said is the TRUTH? Are
you uncomfortable because of the misery you caused as a
minister, or that people talking about the acts of
Armstrong's ministers makes you feel bad about yourself?
Since the tone of your correspondence does not suggest
much compassion on your part for the injured, one might
easily suspect the latter.
Now, what are we supposed to do? Get Jesus, and then get
lost? Like it or not, people will stop talking about it
when they are ready to stop talking about it. You, and
your kind will never force us to navigate the river
"denial" again! And Grant, most of us are not looking
for justification; we are just looking to ease the pain.
Sincerely,
Dana
3/26/01
Editor,
Our recent
brush with exWorldwide minister Grant Spong has
given us a rare opportunity. I hope those visiting the
PT site will take a closer look at the correspondence;
it isn't often that we get such a complete view of
ministerial arrogance all at once. I almost think they
deserve their own page.
First he contacts you and tells you to
take him off your Hall of
Shame list.
Tells you! As if he has all this power over you. As
if to say, "Yes, I know you're out there, I've known it
all along, so now you know you're busted."
But you very cordially remind him of the
rules: to get his name off the list, he needs to make a
public apology. In response, he sneers. "Go ahead and
keep your little list!"
Then the most audacious declaration of
all. He has already apologized to a few individuals. He
has preached against Armstrong. He has been thrown out
on his ass. Now it is the lay members who are evil.
They are
supposed to apologize to
him!
At this point I get involved. I shoot off
a sarcastic parody of a Nazi SS man who expects the Jews
to apologize to him. This really fries Mr. Spong. He
really hates this, and now we see a bottle rocket light
off in his ass. He is spinning in several directions at
once. "Your analogy is unfair!" "You are filled with
bitterness and hatred!" "God understands your pain."
"Let Jesus help you."
At the very same time, he tries to divert
my attention from my main point, going off on some
meaningless, ridiculous rant about American atrocities
against not only the Germans and Japanese, but also the
environment, the Indians, and probably the Eskimos as
well. (Some of which is actually true, but is not
relevant to the discussion at hand.) This is extremely
typical of a guilty person: "Oh, you've got me, haven't
you? LOOK OVER THERE!" (while I run away).
You and I both respond, pointing out that
he is dodging the issue, that he still owes an apology
for his involvement in the oppressive ruling class of
the Armstrong cult. But he shows no willingness to face
up to this. His arrogance runs too deep, his contempt is
too heavy. He is a "man of God", meaning we are
automatically wrong. He feels no need to repent, is
unwilling to even entertain the idea.
He is the victim here, no one else. His final
response to me no longer even pretends. "You
ass!" he snarls.
Then -and this is truly the ultimate
height of self-absorbed arrogance -he blocks further
communication! As if we are pursuing him! (I can't
say it too often -he came after us! Not the other
way around!)
Please notice that at no time does this
man answer any of the legitimate charges made against
him.
Nor will he even discuss them. Throughout, he tries
alternating tactics - condescension, humor, even
"understanding" (he tries to counsel
us) - yet ultimately he believes he
is the victim.
Can anyone reading this still think that
"most ministers are sincerely trying to do the right
thing"? What about personal responsibility? What about
personal repentance? What about self-examination (like
they told us to do every Passover - which is coming up)?
Is the WCG ministry already perfect, blameless before
God? Apparently this particular minister thinks so.
Since he is now apparently out of work,
perhaps Mr. Spong can go to work for former president
Bill Clinton. They are both victims, neither has ever
done anything wrong, and both are waiting for apologies
from their victims. They should get along together quite
well.
John B
A OPEN LETTER TO GRANT, THE GODSQUAD
PIMP.
Dear Asshole,
Your
response of arrogance to the readers of this site
classifies you as a religious pimp without credentials.
I will respond to you in the same certain terms I used
with a lover of your mythical god, one John Scott. This
pimp pushed Jesus idea's on those who visited the
discussion board some time back. After many reminders
that "We the People, who wish to develop our own
perfection of mind over religion & fear" wish not to
endure bible quotes and other unprovable fairy tales,
were greeted by deaf ears, that stifled our cries for
relief! The opiate of religion was forced upon us!
The
response was as follows" If Jesus exists, and the bible
is the word of god, then it follows that this god is a
racist uncaring pig that basically don't give a good
golly goddamn about mankind! Seeing that my morality is
above Gods, because I do love my fellow man and the
resulting creation from my loins, my children (who I do
not torture and torment with rules and regulations and
for the transgression of my laws, unlike armstrongities
do unto their offspring) and live a higher morality than
the god characterization in the bible, and with this I
declare as follows. If Jesus returns:
"We crucified him once and if he comes
again, we will crucify him afresh. For this is our
service to mankind, for our morality exceeds that of the
god's."
One more consideration for you asshole!
"For if the morality of man exceeds that of his god,
then that god is a creation of mans mind. Hence, a Fairy
Tale."
Your
Adversary out of christ,
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