This is likely, highly likely, to be the final Ambassador Watch or Otagosh posting. Those who know me as more than a cantankerous blogger also know that I've been fighting, without great success, a serious health situation. In the time I have left there are clearly other priorities, and I commend Gary's blog as a great place to keep "in the loop".
I guess I want to say that there's very little I regret. If I've horribly offended anyone unjustly, I apologize. There are a lot of good people in the COGs, battling on, as we all do, according to our best insights. The blogs will stay up, for what they're worth, even if only curiosity value.
Special thanks to everyone who has engaged in creative conversation here.
Gavin.
64 comments:
Thank you so much for all you have done for us trying to make sense of what happened to us.
I wish you well in regarding your health and hope things go well for you.
Gavin, thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences with all of us. Thank you too for providing these forums for people to discuss issues of interest and/or importance to them. I hope that it is a source of some comfort, satisfaction and pride for you to know that you have helped so many folks work through and come to terms with their time in Armstrongism. May God bless you on the road ahead - wherever it may take you.
Your site is even fun just watching the flags pop up from all exotic capital cities of the world and remote areas from the top of Canada to Arabia and Ukraine and other places with 12 hours of darkness and you shine a light. Good luck to you!
nck
We all appreciate your efforts and the one thing that you can take with you is that you have enriched our lives.
Gavin, I am so sorry to read this farewell. Thanks for always using your gifts for the greater good. I will miss your posts, and will always think of you as one of the best of us.
Dear, Sweet Gavin (I know your detractors will disagree with that greeting...) My heart is breaking. You have been a sane, sensible voice in the wilderness for so long, able to write strong words that could cut to the core, but without bitter hatefulness. And with obviously a TRUE "heart of gold" that only your detractors could miss seeing. You have "ministered" to so many confused, hurting people far more than any of the fellows with "papers" who call themselves "ministers" ever could, including by giving so many a place to unload their feelings and thoughts and get encouragement from others of like mind.
May your path be smoothed as much as possible through whatever is ahead of you.
Thanks for your enduring effort in this and other regenerations of your COG-critique websites, which provided a safe meeting place for former COG members around the world.
When I first noticed this late last night, it left me at a loss for words. Gavin, you and your blogs have always been a much needed voice of sanity, reason, and moderation. They have also been the go to place for people of intellect in search of answers (but always finding that there are so many more questions). You've made us a partner to your own personal odyssey, and we are edified by the ride.
You are in my prayers. Keep the faith!
BB
Gavin:
What a wild and wonderful journey we had together with Ambassador Watch and your other blogs. You have helped so many leave the cultish nonsense of Armstrongism behind and take a leap of faith out of the quagmire. The detractors may have a field day with this news, but they have never been able to recover from the dissolution of the church into meaningless little splinter groups. We are all here to walk along side you at this point in time. God's speed!
Gary
Gavin, you will be missed.
Thank you, Gavin, for helping me recover from Armstrongism. You were a voice of sanity and reason (and good humor) when I really needed one. You helped make my life better and I will always be grateful.
Glenn Parker
Austin, Texas
Gavin,
Back in the mid 90's I began to seek the answers to why I felt armstrongism was unnatural.
It was Ed and Gavin that convinced me to finally think about my decision to remain in the lie of armstrongism. I never thought that the real 'church of god' could actually be a financial scam. It was. Thank God for the Internet.
Gavin, I wish you well my friend! Gary and I will keep an eye on little bobby and make sure he don't hurt himself.
This is a damned shame. All strength to you for the future.
Gavin I hope you quickly recover from whatever illness you are fighting. I've said this before, but I will say it again, that your blog saved my life. I mean this metaphorically and also literally. Metaphorically in that your paper on the Canon was the tipping point which finally forced open my eyes to the falsehoods of Christianity and of armstrongism. And literally in that I was rapidly approaching the point where I was going to kill myself due to the hopelessness and depression instilled in me from years in the church. I had already gathered the "equipment" needed for a clean suicide....but finding your articles, and the articles of others like the old XCG blog and also Dennis, pulled me back from the abyss and introduced me to a community where I could heal. And I'm 100% certain there are others out there like me who owe you a similar debt of gratitude.
Thank you, Gavin. I hope one day we can meet in person and I can buy you a beer or a cup of tea.
Gavin,
I was saddened to hear of your heath problems. I wish you well, and sincerely hope that you may be able to successfully combat this health problem.
You and I have not always agreed on this blog, but I have always considered you a voice of reason and fairness. You certainly helped open my eyes to aspects of our shared historic past.
We have taken different paths. I have a different view of the Bible to you – but that’s fine, I believe we are both sincere in our beliefs.
I attend one of the COGs, but with eyes wide open. I know that there are no financial scams where I am attending. I also know most of the ‘problem areas’ of the past have been overcome. But that is not the case everywhere.
We all of us live our lives without seeing clearly – that is the human condition.
I would be please to meet you personally, over a drink of some sort. This is unlikely in this life, as you live in New Zealand, the other side of the world from me.
However, I am convinced that we can schedule that drink some day, in a world where everyone can see clearly, a world where the old prejudices have been replaced with love and harmony, and together mankind can look forward to the adventures to come.
Thank you Gavin
Gavin:
In the forum you have provided with your knowledgeable and articulate blog journalism, you have done much good. You have helped us to parse through and begin to process the hard and painful issues. It may be too much to ask, but I hope we will see a few essays from you in the future.
Vielen Dank.
The best to you,
Neo
Well, well, well. Those that have read my comments here and elsewhere know that I am not noted for any sentimentality, but for analysing cause and effect. Cicero observed, "we must be able to see the effects, while they are still in the womb of their causes."
I must confess that even I, with the eyes of an eagle, don't always see the effects, but God, in his mercy, often closes the womb before it gives birth to effects that would overwhelm me. Thereby protecting me from the consequences of things I might say or do.
Sadly, others have not been that blessed, so they have said things about God servants and his word that have been very foolish.
I am very sorry to hear this Gavin. In the words of Quakers, I and others will be holding you in the light. Greg Doudna
Tom Mahon is another delusional crackpot. Typical armstrongist.
Gavin,
I thank you so much for this labor of love you have been devoting yourself to for many years now. The time is now for you to devote to yourself for your health and life priorities.
There was a time in my life when I would wake up in my Maryland home, get a cup of coffee, and hit your blog first thing in the early morning for the latest developments in the Armstrong Church of God movement. For you see, you fulfilled a need in my life trying to figure out "what happened" to me in this religion I grew up in. For you see, I left in 1976 to the estrangement of friends and family left in the Worldwide Church of God. I never returned, and built a whole new life outside the Church known to me as "God's Church". There was a knowledge gap of decades in my mind about the events that happened in Church after I left in 1976. Ambassador Watch filled in those knowledge gaps and gave me "the rest of the story" as Paul Harvey would say. You would post about topics I remembered growing up and about people who I remembered.
My hats off to you Gavin! I join many others to express my sincere appreciation for your work. I wish you well, and your health situation sounds very serious. Approach it as if it were the fight of your life. Never give up! Never! Keep fighting! Never give up!
Richard
Lake of Fire Church of God
Terribly saddened to hear this, Gavin. Your blog was, by far, the best of the COG-critique bunch. My prayers, for what they are worth, are with you as you face that which we all must face.
Best wishes, Gavin, and thanks for your inspiration through the years. I am saddened to hear you are fighting disease, and hope the very best.
Thanks for your service over the years. I'm sad to hear of your health going south. May your battle with your illness be as sucsessful as your sites have been. I shall add you to my prayers .
May God carry you over the sand in your time of need
Stephen aka BlindDude
Our quasi-government healthcare systems seem to, of necessity, ration service, telling me PSA tests are not warranted, and not screening for pancreatic tumors - even though I have long-standing pancreatitis! (a neglected condition mainly in affluent countries)
Thanks for all you have done... May you be blessed now and forever more....
Where is Dennis the deluded and Douglas the deranged to comment on Gavin's condition? I suspect they may have long been blended with common earth.
Opinionated said: "Tom Mahon is another delusional crackpot."
Well, the day of judgement will reveal who were the crackpots. I am happy to wait until that day before sticking a label on you.
Wait! What?!
I have the 4th comment.
I second the "Tom Mahon is another delusional crackpot" after his inability to read through the comments already here, as one who is so narcissistic as not to pay one shred of attention to what anyone else has to say.
He should pray I not take notice of his folly and begin a new project....
And the day of judgment, for anyone who has like, you know, really read the New Testament, is TODAY! I don't quote the Scripture because the person to whom I am referring is a functional atheist, neither knowing or believing what the Bible really says.
Tom Mahon. Illegitimate, unethical, delusional, and without a conscious. The smiling face of a fool.
Please. Have a little compassion here and take your mud slinging off site. That includes you, Tom Mahon. What kind of man suggests that God is avenging him by giving someone a fatal illness. Please, everyone involved in this (including you, Minimalist, about your poor experiences with medical insurance) do a little self-policing for once and remove your comments. This ought to be a place where friends can say goodbye to Gavin.
Agreed, Kathleen. Surely, common sense and human decency would seem to mandate that there are occasions when agendas should be suspended. We were taught a lot about character and will power in our past shared philosophy, but my how some can be so selective in applying them!
BB
This is not a help to Gavin who has done such a great job as a service.
But this does speak to Armstrongism and in the end, this demonstrates what this blog has been about: Revealing the truth for the aid and benefit of those who are in need.
Gavin has given us many things that no one else could.
My greatest appreciation was his revelation that British Israelism was stupid, silly and bunk. That transformed my life for the better, and I will always be especially grateful for that.
Minimalist .. poor experiences with medical insurance
Even Steve Jobs missed pancreatic screening,
and I presume he had 'Cadillac' healthcare.
Focusing on the pancreas may seem like 'contemplating one's navel',
but that's where it hurts, just above the navel!
COGites should have this checked after many wine-soaked FOTs.
Not all can tolerate alcohol like Olympic Drinking Champ HWA.
I hope everyone will just SHUT UP if they don't have something kind and relevant to say in this situation. There is a time and place for everything. This is a time for saying good bye. With KINDNESS and CONCERN. Not that Gavin is going to see what anyone is putting on here...
Gavin happens to be to my friend list on Facebook. This post came in from him this morning.
"Dying is just such a damn stupid thing. Last term relief teaching, now lying in a hospice bed wondering whether I'll wake up. Lenva and Petrina visiting tomorrow. Asked Lenva to bring a beer, suggestion of Cancer Society nurse of all people, lol. Dealing with immobility, but necessary indignities. No choice, but no pain thankfully."
Pam,
How old Is Gavin anyway? I know most of us are heading up to that age where we all get sick and go our way. A damned shame Gavin has to go so soon. I enjoy his blog, and learned so much that helped me through those times of doubt in the past.
Tom Mahon exemplifies all the utter filth of Armstrongism. He and Bob Thiel should be married. They deserve each other. Two insensitive lying bastards
NO2HWA,
Are you advocating for an interracial, homosexual marriage between 2 self-righteous pompous self proclaimed armstrongphiles?
I've never known exactly how old Gavin is, but I'm guessing early 60s. Here's a link to a relatively recent photo of him.
Gavin Rumney
If I've encouraged just one Harmstrongite, cajoled into using alcohol by HWA, to get Liver & Pancreas tests, that would be a good thing.
Anyone who attacks me is just harming him or herself, as my angel always beholds the face of my father who is in heaven.
I don't personally have anything against Gavin, as I don't know him. But over the past ten years or so, he spoke very ill of Mr Armstrong, the Apostle Paul and in his last post on Otagosh, he implied that the book by Grayling was better than the bible. That is blasphemy.
In addition, any time I posted a reply to much of the theological nonsense that Gavin supported, he moderated out my comments. At one time, he even blocked me from posting to his blog, while allowing idiots like Dennis, Douglas and all the others who are now saying what a nice guy he is or was.
Well, according to God, Gavin was not a nice guy, for he was hostile to God's servants, and promoted theological heresy over the wholesome teachings of the bible.
So, he and his supporters have got some surprises coming, and I can assure him and them, they won't be pleasant.
Tom Mahon, I believe we have sparred here on Ambassador Watch in years past. What a bunch of puke you posted at 17:26. If Gavin spoke ill of Mr. Armstrong, it was because time has proven Mr. Armstrong a fraud and the truth was not with him. My history with Herbert Armstrong dates back to the 1950s - probably longer than yours.
This blog post is about honoring Gavin. It is not about arguing Armstrongism. You don't know what God thinks, and you're certainly not the Judge and Jury. I am reminded that "MANY (including Herbert Armstrong and Tom Mahon) shall come in MY name, and shall deceive MANY".
Get your head out of your rear end, and climb back into the hole where you came from. This is not the venue and the time for your self righteousness.
Richard
Lake of Fire Church of God
Father, we ask that you would heal and forgive Tom Mahon, who has been rendered toxic by false teachers, and knows not the evil that he is doing.
We also ask that you would continue to watch over our friend Gavin in this, his time of need.
In your Son Jesus' name we pray.
Amen.
BB
Amen.
Amen. Beautiful prayer, BB. Thanks.
Richard, I do remember your name popping up in some of the discussions. All that you said then was nonsense, and nothing has changed.
I don't need Byker Bob's prayers, as Jesus has already prayed for me. And if Gavin is relying on Byker Bob prayers for healing, his family may as well plan his funeral.
Tom, I've said all that I have to say. It seems like a good idea to leave you talking with dead air space at this point. Beer and chips in the Kingdom.
BB
RIP, Gavin.
As Kathleen noted, Gavin died mid-afternoon (New Zealand time) Thursday December 15, 2016. Thanks to those who had kind words to say of him.
RIP, Gavin Rumney. Thanks again for all you have done to help us. We will always remember you.
Well, it is not the end, yet! In the day of judgement, he will still have to come face to face with Jesus Christ to give an account for all the blasphemy he posted on his blog.
Those of you that supported his attacks of Mr Armstrong, the Apostle Paul and God himself, have got some surprises coming, and can assure you, they won't be pleasant.
God will not hold him guiltless, who takes his name in vain!
Tom wrote: "Those of you that supported his attacks of Mr Armstrong, the Apostle Paul and God himself, have got some surprises coming, and can assure you, they won't be pleasant."
Prove it asshole.
Rave on, Tom. We've all dismissed you as being one of the mentally unstable cultie crazies, so nobody is taking your vile comments seriously.
If you loved Mr. Armstrong, you should be worried about whether he will be in the Kingdom. We read quite a bit in the Bible concerning the fate of false prophets. I and my church friends and siblings all grew up having been taught that the Germans were coming in 1972, and Jesus would return in 1975. Then when that did not happen, HWA and the church lied and said they had never set dates. But, we had even been taught three math equations in Ambassador College Second Year Bible Class "proving" that the end would happen in 1975.
It was not wrong of Gavin to expose HWA for his error and false teaching, and it was also not wrong for the rest of us to add our testimonies and to discuss it all further. Truth clearly appears not to be on your side, and your tapdance on Gavin's grave makes it obvious that you lack the Christ like attribute/gift/fruit of compassion. You are expressing as certainty things that you cannot possibly know.
To any of Gavin's surviving loved ones who may be maintaining this site: If this is your first exposure to Tom Mahon, please know that Tom is just a kook. Nothing he says should be taken seriously. Don't be concerned or spend any time worrying over anything Tom says, but instead, join the rest of us and pity him. And now, sit back and watch as he gets destructive, and digs himself deeper into the hole, because he literally can't help himself.
BB
Gavin had a cat, and in my book, it showed that he was truly one of the good guys.
I suspect that those who come to take advantage of his death hate cats. Traditionally, the Armstrongist 1% has hated cats and in the United States, they were largely Republican dog owners. I surmise that is because they could never tolerate any creature that is independent and they cannot stomach any domestic companion that will not be subservient to them in abject devoted obedience -- the very same way they want their congregations to act. They can't tolerate anyone or anything that would do anything they don't sanction exactly when they want it.
Dogs lap it up.
Cats won't stand for it.
It takes a kind liberal tolerant soul to live with a cat, which makes it such an important detail to know about Gavin.
I agree with Byker Bob's last statement and have only a little to add.
* Gavin was willing to face the hard issues. This was a special courage. He was not doctrinaire or creedal. He did not hide from God behind Phariseeism.
* Since Tom Mahon is an Armstrongite, let us "answer a fool according to his folly." Armstrongites consider Tom Mahon to be a Canaanite. He is servant or slave class and his words on any advanced spiritual topic should be disregarded. He needs to be micro-managed by White Israelites and is not trustworthy on his own. This is not only the COG view of him it is also God's view, whether his angel beholds the face of God or not. Tom lost out for eternity because was born black into the reality of a God who is racially White. He is a spiritual Jew but not nearly up to par with native Israelites forever.
I do no like sounding this note of controversy during this time that should be solemn and respectful. But I think Gavin would get a chuckle out of this. He was ever a magnet for controversy and saw his role as exposing the bizarreness of Armstrongism. I disagreed with him on genuine Christianity but I respected his view and I knew it was something that he carefully considered and did not pull out of his hip pocket. He highlighted where Christianity needed to get its act together and mostly he was right.
As a non-evangelical and mainstream Christian (with a Quaker flavor) I believe that God easily accommodates people like Gavin. Based on what Jesus said when he was here, I think it is much more difficult for God to accommodate modern day pharisees.
NeoTherm
That's kind of disturbing stuff that I'd forgotten, Neo. I know Gavin loved Tom, as do we all, and we're going to want to be sure that Tom has made it into the Kingdom, too. It's just going to be difficult to know, because Tom's cities will be in Africa.
I also hope Herbie makes it. I'll even help him polish the Pope's sandals if that's his lesson in humility.
BB
What type of cancer was it, anyone know?
Neo Therm,
The doctrine that the desendances of Canaan were cursed is biblical, and is evident to anyone who is not blind. The African people do not have the ability to develop the resourses that are under their feet, and even after hundreds of years of association with Britain and American, they still have not learn enough to manufacture products out the raw materials that are in abundance in Africa. That inability is an obvious curse.
The problem was and still is, the white members of WCG used that knowledge to discriminate against the black members, which is contrary to the revelation given to the Apostle Paul, which states thus: "For we are all the children of God...There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for we are all one in Christ Jesus(Gal,3:28). "All one," means one spirit. For Paul was inspired to write: "He that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit"(1 Cor.6:17). And the spirit is not flesh and blood, so it is neither black nor white, you might be surprised to learned.
Furthermore, the reason for much of the madness that existed in WCG, was because Mr Armstrong's dispensation was the Laodicaen era of the church, with its emphasis on materislism, which blinded it to spiritual understanding. Plus the American racism of the 40s and 50s was carried over into the church by people who were not converted. That is why God spewed the church out of his mouth, as it was neither cold nor hot.
Finally, the curse of Canaan may disturb some black people, if they know about it, who blamed all of their problems on slavery and racism. But it has no affect on me, for I was predestinated, to be called, called to be justified, justified to be glorified.
Personally, I didn't have anything against Gavin. He just rushed to his keyboard to disparage people and things that he never understood, and he will reap the consequences, and his supporters will follow in his footsteps. I say that by the authorit of Almighty God!
Where is the depressed the Dennis and the deranged Douglas, who used to attack me here? My angel, who always beholds the face of my father, who is in heaven, may have been sent to deal with their insanity!
Neo Therm
I apologise for the couple of typos, but they don't adversely affect the meaning of my post.
Tom:
Your post is highly idiosyncratic and is outside the pale of orthodox Armstrongism. And, of course, you have no authority to speak for God. That is facetious.
-- NeoTherm
Oh, now, NeoTherm, if Tom wants to give the middle finger to God by violating the Third Commandment and take God's Name in vain, who are we to stop him?
Neo Therm,
I didn't think you would understand my reply to your attempt to disparage Mr Armstrong, because he taught, from the bible, that the descendants of Canaan are cursed. And I supposed that because I am a descendant of Canaan, you thought that I might be offended or even outraged.
Sorry to disappoint you, but I have no problem dealing with God's revelation about the human condition. For the question God poses through the Chosen Vessel is this, "Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, why have you made me thus?"
However, hidden within this sublime mystery is the revelation of the magnitude of God's mercy towards some of the cursed descendants of Canaan, whom he calls "vessels of mercy." These will inherit eternal life, and come to know God and Jesus Christ.
Of course, I don't expect you to fully understand any of this, as you have spent most of your life being hostile to God's servant, Mr Armstrong.
Tom:
This is my last post to you. First, you know nothing about how I have "spent my life." Dean Blackwell taught, under HWA's auspices, that you would be subservient forever to White Israelites. Nothing that Christ has done will change that. I was sitting in the congregation when Blackwell taught this in Wichita, Kansas.
If you are not offended at this, you should be. Because it is simple-minded racism and not found in the Bible. The fact that you are not offended is not humility but pathology.
You have expressed things in your posts that would get you dis-fellowshipped from any orthodox Armstrongite church. You do not have an argument with me, you have a clash with the religious movement you claim to believe in. To verify this, why don't you call up Dr. Donald Ward, put your ideas in front of him, and see what happens.
Good luck and good-bye.
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