Email: Sweet and Sour(maybe)
(Mail from Kooks, Nuts and Loonies is on another page)
Email, Indexed by DATE
New on 7/26/99:
In my 23 years in the Worldwide Church of God, I did meet a lot of ministers. Only a handful of them were genuine human beings who weren't overwhelmed with their own importance, the greater majority were real turds with Napoleon complexes. But at the top of the heap, there are three men that I feel should not only be disfellowshipped but MARKED as well.
Probably the most pompous ass I ever met in my life was an arrogant self-exalting walrus by the name of Clint Zimmerman. This guy had everyone fooled into thinking he was some great spiritual Einstein. If you've ever seen the movie "Being There" you'll know what I mean when I say he was just like the character Chauncy Gardener (played by Peter Sellers) only in a more sinister way. Chauncy Gardener was a retarded man who started getting mistaken for a philosopher among millionaires and socialites. So it didn't matter what type of nonsensical gibberish came out of his mouth, people reacted as if it were profound and beyond understanding. Zimmerman found his niche as a Worldwide Church of God minister when he discovered this mendacious method of overwhelming people with gobbledygook, babble, and illogical prosaic. And he was rewarded for discovering a new path to placing congregations into a zone of hypnosis, by his dull monotonous droning, when Armstrong raised him to evangelist rank. A parody of his trite blather would go something like this:
"You. What's your name? You are there. I am here. We all are somewhere. So, where are you? Who are you? How are you? When are you? When am I? It is time. Do you know the time? My watch has stopped. Yours may be running. It may be stopped too. Have you checked? Up is up, down is down, in is out and out is in. YOU! WHAT'S YOUR NAME?...."
I disfellowship and MARK Clint Zimmerman for being a bloated bore who wasted more of my life than I care to think about. And the Straw Man sang, "If I only had a brain....."
Another method of successful ministering was to pimp the congregation. This was probably practiced best by Worldwide Church of God pastor Camilio Reyes. Sunglassed security men stood guard outside the rented hall where his special parking place was situated closest to the door. A flashy red sports car would come careening into the lot narrowly missing the hoary headed shuffling toward the entrance. After screeching to a stop, out would pop Camilio in his latest iridescent shark skin suit, gold chains dangling. As the sound of his snake skin shoes clicked away from his sportscar, his hand went airborne with his key chain and his car alarm would squeak out. What dramatic flair! This guy liked money so much, he'd interrupt himself during announcements to ask the congregation to help him sell his condominiums for outrageous profits. When he learned he was being transferred from Bakersfield to Northern California, he asked the congregation to pray vigilantly that he find a luxurious new home in a wealthy district. (You've got to imagine elderly people sitting in wheelchairs breathing from oxygen tanks dispersed among poor families wearing thrift shop clothes to catch the full effect of his audacity.) Camilio's boot-licking deacons gushed. They knew exactly what would give their sugar daddy a great sendoff. "We'll have a fund raiser. We'll hit church members up every week for twenty or thirty bucks each until we can bedeck our panderer with great going away gifts of gold and jewelry." And so they did. And a great offering was collected. And it was very good in the eyes of the Lord. For the congregation was all of one accord on the days of unleavened bread, and the deacons wept as they sacrificed unto their god. And there was great joy as the widows returned to their shanties to eat kitty litter and warm themselves by candle light. And as Camilio sped out of the parking lot, he thought to himself, "It's good to be the king."
Consider your self MARKED and dis'ed! And the Tin Man sang, "If I only had a heart..."
Camilio was replaced by another minister by the name of Dave Dobson. Now, I had learned that ministers can control by vagueness, obsequiousness, or opulence but Dobson showed me that a minister could also control by shear cowardice. In our last year of attending the Worldwide Church of God, I drove to Fresno, California to visit some old friends of ours. They had grown up in the Worldwide Church of God and in turn raised their own children in the church. But, when they found out about the new teachings on "grace" from Pasadena, they made the mistake of sharing their findings with other "brethren," which of course got them put on suspension from services. Nevertheless, we visited with them just before going to church services on Saturday. As we were leaving, their 16 year old daughter came running out of the house and asked if we'd give her a ride to church. "Sure," I said. And she climbed into the van with my daughters. Walking into the Masonic lodge with my family and our friends' child, I felt eyes dropping and noticed ghostlike figures creeping off to that holy of holies where church pastor Les McColm and his toadies hovered just before piano arpeggio and the hackneyed directive, "Let's all rise b-r-e-t-h-r-e-n." Services went predictably without vivacity, we "fellowshipped," we left.
A couple days later I was out working in my front yard and the phone rang. My wife answered and then came outside to inform me that Dave Dobson and his assistant Leon Sexton would be over on Friday evening to "talk" to me. On Friday evening they came just as announced. It appeared that McColm had thrown a fit over the phone to Dobson about my fraternizing with our friends and I was to be given an ultimatum by Dobson to either declare my loyalty to the ministry and stay in the church or continue to visit my friends in Fresno and be disfellowshipped. I chose the latter. But, before Dobson could take the Holy Ghost back, I asked him a few questions about the Bible's contradictions with Worldwide Church of God doctrine. For instance, it was clear to me that the apostle Paul was not keeping Jewish holydays since he was not in Jerusalem during those controversial episodes in the book of Acts. This would have also held true for uncircumcised Gentiles because, remember, Gentiles were not allowed to keep holydays. So, why did Armstrong claim they did when it didn't take a rocket scientist to see they couldn't? I also asked Dobson why Hoeh and Armstrong had plagiarized their sources and falsified documents, and I offered to show Dobson the proof. My wife and I had never seen a minister so scared to speak. He no longer had the courage to disfellowship me so instead he warned me, yes you guessed it, not to talk to anyone about what I had told them. Then he looked back and forth between me and his assistant and said, "You know, you're absolutely right. We in the ministry have often talked about these issues. But until we're told to speak differently, we can't say anything."
Of course, I don't like ultimatums and I decided at that point that I would go ahead and finish my treatise in the form of my book Daughter of Babylon. I announced that in the following issue of Ambassador Report. About two days after the Report was mailed out Dobson called me again, and this time by order of Joe Tkach Jr. he disfellowshipped me. So much for a man who really stands up for what he believes in.
And the Cowardly Lion sang, "What does the Hottentot got that I ain't got? Courage!"
That's my list, Ed.
Some of the names on your disfellowship list I would not consider "bad guys" there is one who was always good and understanding and another who is friend. The ones who hurt me the most are not around and on your list.
I know there are some good guys on the list. I've known George Isken, who is also on the list, for 29 years and he wouldn't hurt a flea. The worst he would be guilty of is boring people to death. But he is associated with this church, he derives power from them and he supports them as a loyal Myrmidon along with the rest of them. I'm sorry, that is all it takes to get disfellowshipped from being able to associate with people that can think for themselves.
He and all these other religionists descended from ol' herbie, should just hang up their Bibles and walk away in shame at what they have been a part of. These "representatives of Jesus" have no conscience. They will not clean up the toxic wasteland that they are leaving behind them and they must be banished.
They, above all other men, should see the damage their religion has done to their fellow men. But, they are too interested in their retirements and their cushy jobs and their power to give it up. If they were truly good men, they would give it all up and walk away. I know one man that did this: Walter Neufeld. He was our minister when we left. I don't know exactly why he did it or what his beliefs are today, but he is not in any ministry right now as far as I know. He is the same age as I am and I am pretty sure he gave up his retirement. Don't know what he is doing today but I had heard that he got a job selling home improvements with Sears when he first left. I'm sure he is in something better by now.
If there is anyone on the list who has genuinely repented and left the ministry altogether, I will take him off the list. That is the only sign that I will accept as true repentance. Give up the money. Give up the power. Get out of the God Pimping business. If anyone knows of such former ministers, I will gladly remove their names. They can even sign the Ministerial Apology Page to signify their repentance.
The Disfellowship page was not created to hurt them. No way did I ever think that. I'm sure they look at it as crazy that I would have the audacity of disfellowshipping "Gawd's ministers. Gawd's chosen instruments for warning the world of the coming tribulation." Sheeeeeeshhhhhhh............
A couple more (though former or even dead) ministers of the Worldwide Church of God to add to the list:
Thanks for the certificate disfellowshipping me from that hell hole known as the Worldwide Church of God. I'll get my son's color printer and make a copy. Maybe I'll send it to a couple ministers.
Thank you again for your work on this website. I would like to add my name to those who disfellowship the offspring of hwa.
I know you've been accused of being bitter. I see your perspective as being appropriate. I liken your perspective to someone who asks for a glass of water, and is handed a glass of vinegar. The church said it was giving you water , but gave you vinegar. It's hard to get that taste out of your mouth.
Please add me to the list of members disfellowshiping the wolves!!
Please add me to the list of people disfellowshipping the wrongdoers. ;)
I continue to enjoy your site.
I am considering signing your disfellowshipping list. I want to go back a double check it one more time to make sure you haven't left off anyone I personally feel deserves the honor. I was glad to see you included my old friend Hanisko. Now if I just find J. Harold Lester the MOST ARROGANT ASS OF THEM ALL it's a lock that I will sign!
Thanks for putting out more truth in my one year of coming to your site than I got in my thirty years of Armstrongism,
Add to the list (on the left) (the abused ones)
p.s. You left off Richard Rice on the minister list. I see Karl Beyersdorfer on the list, but he is actually associated with Golbal now.
If you want the name of the ultimate kook from Worldwide Church of God history, that would be Cecil Battles ;the one who waited on the side of a mountain for the flying saucers to take him and the believers to the sea of glass.
Thanks for your message and the additions to the list.
Be glad to take ministers from Worldwide Church of God, Global, United, PCG, or any of the other spin-offs. I don't see any difference between them so will just put them all together. The list of Worldwide Church of God ministerial types was harvested from their web page and I will keep that together as one unit.
I have two names for you to add to your disfellowship list, if you so desire... the late Vincent Panella (former pastor in New Jersey), who inspires me to almost believe in the Protestant fundamentalist hellfire, just because he NEEDS to burn in torment, and the wuss-out _____ ____ ____ former pastor of Memphis, Tennessee, Mark Cardona. (Worldwide Church of God)
Just a few words of encouragement to bolster your morale and to praise you for your innovative and successful effort to get under the Russian's skin. I would like to see the entire 40,000 and then some sign the dis-list. I am informing local church members (who still treat me civilly), and some are rather intrigued to say the least.
I think your web site is great therapy for ones coming out of the cult. They can vent their spleen and relate their bitter experiences to others who suffered also. Something on the order of an angry tot that is given a pillow to punch to relieve that anger. I know I felt better after writing in to the Painful Truth for the first time. Then, after reading about others who were victimized, I thought, hey, these guys went through what I did! There is no pseudo-brotherly love here, as in Worldwide Church of God.
My heart goes out to you, and all the others whose lives were broken by a miserly perverted old bastard who called himself "God's Apostle." And made us believe it. If he was still alive, his life would be in dire peril.
Mussolini, likewise, was adored by his countrymen. He was not rated as highly as "God's Apostle", but the Italians, lovingly called him "Il Duce!" (Our Leader!), They flung kisses and flowers as he paraded by, waving and giving him loving glances. And of course, you know what happened to the guy and his girl friend after the allies came. Love turned to bitter smoldering hate. He ran like a rat but they caught him! He and his girl friend were ignominiously hung upside down on a high, makeshift rack and he was cleaved from his crotch to his upper parts.
I believe that level of anger dwells in most of us who exited the cult. I also believe the Russian and the splinters will reap a bitter harvest if they continue to sow Armstrong crap. More and more, letters from discontented and disillusioned church kids are appearing on the Painful Truth. Many are madder'n hell. Kids can be so unpredictable. The Russian and his hierarchy should not rest too easily. After all, Halloween is only 3 months away. That's a pagan day we all hate! (hee hee hee)
Just wanted to share some random thoughts, Ed, and to give you an invisible "high five".
(Hey, what will you do if some of these kids ask you for addresses?)
Thanks for your support.
I don't think too many ministers have to worry about suffering Il Duce's fate, but, then again, they know what the dished out and the people's lives they have ruined. They would do well to worry more about the fact that there just may be a God they are accountable to.
As far as addresses of these religion pimps, I don't have any and wouldn't give them out if I did. Those still in the Worldwide Church of God have their phone numbers and email addresses all available on the , so I guess they invite your calls or email.
Enjoyed your site very much. Just skimmed it but have bookmarked it for future reference when I have more time to do some "in-depth" reading.
It is very unfortunate that we "Christians" do beat people over the head with the Bible all the while trying to preach Christ's love.
Keep up the good work.
I have been avidly devouring your website for several months now, so wished to write and thank you for all the work that you put into it. I spent 25 years in the wwcg and although I haven't attended regularly for about 3 years I have just now been able to put some closure into my life. Your website has been a great help.
When I stopped attending the church, I had just split up with my deacon husband of 20 years. At that time I still "loved" the church, but embarked on a life of seeking my own pleasure so the only thing keeping me from attending was guilt. For two years I would cry when attending other churches or passing synagogues on the holydays(watching them all walking to temple in their finery). I would argue with great passion with my Episcopalian lover (he thought the 'discussions' were fun, I'd get really HOT because he believed in all that "pagan stuff"). I kept thinking I'd return someday when my life got straightened out and my lover and I got married. I met him after my breakup and the one of the most appealing thing about him was that I would never have to be second to an organization in his life and there was nothing I could do or say that would embarrass him.
My childhood was rather chaotic and I endured quite a bit of sexual and emotional abuse. When my family started attending church when I was 13, it seemed the Rock of stability. I loved all the rules. The guilt and shame that poured out of the pulpit seemed Just to me as I felt like pond scum for most of the first 35 years of my life. My life in the church was pretty much "a little wheat and a lot of tares"--great friends, some good ministers, some bad ones, and some stupid ones that I let influence me in many negative ways. I hid in the church behind all those rules, afraid of everything. The one thing about my life that I can say now is that I fear nothing and I rarely let anyone bully or shame me about anything.
In trying to come to terms with the past, I started searching the internet to see what all the splinter groups were doing. When I first came across your site, it made me very sad and somewhat upset. When attending the wwcg I tried very hard to ignore complaints about HQ and Herbert W. Armstrong, using the "God will take care of it" defense. Your site made me acknowledge to myself that I was in a destructive cult. I hated to think I had wasted 25 years of my life. I am trying to rationalize it by thinking I had a fanatical bent back then and I could have ended up in worse places. At least I made some great friends. My ex and I are still friends. Obviously a marriage based on an external social group is not the best and we have both remarried to people more suited to us temperamentally.
I don't, at this time, wish to expound on the abuses that I personally suffered from the church. There were a quite a few but I hope the guilty were more stupid and delusional as opposed to being malicious. (although if anyone is ever going to bring charges against Warren H---- for anything there are people in my family who'd love to testify)
Anyway, I'll quit rambling now, this is to just thank you for helping to make that final clean break. Anyone who reads this who knows me is welcome to send me email at HMDIxon2@aol.com
Sherree Elkins (Cook) Dixon
New on 7/27/99:
This is a request, and you may feel free to decline if you wish. I recently learned that Worldwide Church of God minister Randy Bloom has been transferred to one of the Worldwide Church of God congregations I used to attend, and I remembered his name from your email page, listed in a letter from a "Robert Burnes"?
Out of interest, is there any way you can put me in contact with this person? I'd like to hear about how this guy (I don't know anything about him) made Mr. Burnes' list of asshole ministers. :)
Thank you for forwarding this to me. If you wish, you may tag my e-mail address to my name in the disfellowship list. As always you may post anything that I submit and use my name and e-mail address.
Here is my reply to Shawn, who may write to me anytime.
Randy Bloom is ministerial asshole number one for a variety of reasons. But the chief reason is his treatment of me when I was dating the girl that became my wife. She was baptized and I was not so we had to keep our relationship secret for a long time. The feast before I was baptized (1988) he and the other asshole minister (Earl Williams) found out that we were and have been dating. They were utterly furious. Bloom caught me in a hallway at the Pensacola convention center and proceeded to give a full ration of s__t for dating her. He started accusing me of everything from "spiritual deception", whatever the hell that is, to pre-marital sex. He instantly forbade me to see her until he could confer with asshole number 2 (Earl Williams) This was all in public at the arena. So, we could not see each other for the rest of the feast. After the feast the two of them got together and decided that we could not see each other for at least six months and that I should be disfellowshipped for about six weeks or whenever they decided to let me back in.
We tried to be "obedient" for about a month then said to hell with it and saw each other in secret again. During our six month pseudo-separation I was baptized. The day after the baptism my girlfriend and I went shopping together at a local mall. We were spotted by Earl Williams son. When I got home Earl gave me a call and proceeded to chew me out for not asking his or Bloom's permission to start dating again. I was told that I had a "deep rooted spiritual problem" and that I should not continue to see my girlfriend and that I was risking permanent disfellowship from "the Body of Christ". I continued to get lectures almost every Saturday from one or the other so I finally moved out of his area.
To sum up my impression of Randy Bloom he is a power hungry little Napoleon that delights in having control over the lives of others. He is perhaps the worst sort of person to be in a position of authority. He "leads" by intimidation and threat. When I knew him he was always an assistant minister, I can only hope that he was never turned loose on a congregation by himself.
P.S. My experience and opinion with/of Earl Williams is not a popular one with a lot of ex-Worldwide Church of God people. He seems to be a hero of sorts for spilling the beans with the new doctrine. That does not change the way he treated people before his "spiritual awakening". He and Bloom should be at the top of the apology list.
First I would like to say how good I think your page is. Thank the Lord for the Internet, so people can examine the Truth.
I was a member of the Assemblies of God Pentecostal Church for a year. I can relate to member's experiences from the Church of God. I have been disfellowshipped myself.
I invite you to have a look at my homepage
I think people trying to leave the Church of God may find this beneficial too, perhaps you could provide a link to it and see? Anyway check it out and tell me what you think!
New on 7/29/99:
Thanks for your forwarding and posting of the email. Mr. Burnes' comments fit in well with what I know of this Bloom guy.
Regarding Mark Cardona's ______ __________ activities I wasn't sure why you blanked that out, but I can tell you it's not a wild accusation. Tkach himself had to come down to the Memphis congregation and give them his best David Defense after that whiny little wuss was caught ___________ ___________ from the congregation's _________. (Not like Tkach has much room to talk, but this is Worldwide Church of God being discussed.)
If you want to tell personal experiences with these "ministers", or even call them assholes, it is fine with me, because those are your experiences and your opinions, not mine necessarily. But if you know of criminal actions, you must report them to the authorities. If you have documented proof of anything criminal that was reported and action taken, send it to me and I will post it.
Otherwise, you can tell me what they did but I will NOT post it in its entirety. Some of the things that I have NOT posted would make your hair stand on end.
Hello again, Ed.
Already two full pages. Wow.
Nothing can stop an idea whose time has come.
It feels real good to have had a small part in your Painful Truth efforts on behalf of all those decent folks who fell prey to those "ordained" parasites.
You have empowered them!
(Minster's Name) raped my sister on a YOU trip when she was 17 (about 15 years ago). It was a skiing trip. On the last day she took a heavy spill and woke up with no memory. It seemed so bizarre then. She was afraid to go home from the hospital with my parents because she didn't know who they were. She had to drop out of school and she ended up coming to live with me in another state for 8 months and then going to a boarding school to finish high school. I kept wondering if her stressful homelife caused the amnesia, but she just tried to pretend it never happened. She didn't tell me about the rape until about three years ago. I could have cheerfully killed him. My beauty queen sister with a 150 IQ lived with one spouse abuser for five years then married another spouse abuser. I blame my parents and my church for the majority of this. We started attending when she was 4. Just now in her thirties is she starting to take better care of herself.
(Minster's Name) was always flirty with me when I visited (his church), but I ignored him. (Minster's Name) was also instrumental in the disintegration of my parents marriage.
I'll stop rambling now, but you can see I have quite a bit of surface anger about him.
Thank you for listening yet again. I hate it when people say you should just drop the whole thing. If you had dismantled The Painful Truth just 3 months ago I would have never seen it . I know there are many more out there, not quite ready to hear what you have to say, but they will be someday. And I know they will benefit greatly from these pages. Keep up the good work.
I would like to add the following "ministers" to the list. (1) Jonathan McNair, this is a man in his 30's but he would make the old timers proud. In a sermon he denied the church ever set dates and preached petra as place of safety. When I confronted him with the booklets and letters that showed he was wrong, his response was that it was the peoples' fault if they jumped to conclusions. He then removed me from the speaking list and any other "official duty" I had.
Second person is Alton Billingsly. He preached divine healing and that it was wrong to go to doctors and publicly derided people who did. But, when his wife became very ill, guess what he did....hauled her to the hospital. He also preached against the evils of makeup, while his daughter sat in the congregation wearing makeup. When confronted he said it was acne medication (which would go against his no doctor policy) and I've never heard of lipstick as acne medication.
Third is John Ogwyn. This is a man who spent two years of spokesman club telling us how words were important and we can tell a lot about a person in how they use words, and we should be truthful in all we do. When I first started to learn about Herb's deceit I asked him about it. (he came to visit me because one of his loyal "deacs" said I was asking too many pesky questions) His response was, " that evil internet," and just a bunch of disgruntled frustrated ex-members. To his credit he did admit ol' Herb did have an ego problem. He never did answer my questions, just did the famous church of god two-step, or 3 step. If their were two sides to a questions John would come down firmly on the third.
About 15 months before the above conversation with John Ogwyn. I had asked him about the Ambassador Report, his response was that it was all lies and put out by people who were bitter and had an axe to grind. I told him I was glad to hear that because I had just read an article about Joe Sr. and how his work and war records were lies. When I told this to John his demeanor changed and he asked me if I had those articles he would like to see them, and that there may be some truth to those articles. I owe John a thank you. After he said that, I took the AR's seriously, and this led me to do even more studying about Herb and his boys' wrong doings.
So many nut cases so little time to type.
This is a great idea! I would like to add two names to the list of ministers to disfellowship: Richard Ames and Don Hooser. I can't think of two people more deserving of this high honor.
New on 7/30/99:
Hello again Ed!
I want to submit two more (I guess a three) ministers to the disfellowshipment list, Paul L______ and Robert E______. Mr. L______ was a man who could not build up. He always had to tear down.
A case in point: A friend of mine told me one day he had a very bad day at work and things were not going right for him. My friend needed someone to talk to. He got that alright but Mr. L______ suspended him from services from then on (my friend came back in a year, after Mr. L______ fortunately left the area).
Mr. L______ always prided himself of never "holding hands" when he got engaged to his wife. This man was more obsessively worried about teens and singles masturbating than he was about them engaging in pre-marital sex. Frankly this man hated God's gift to humanity passionately.
Mr. E______, before Mr. L______ was the same way and had some heretical ideas, telling my mom, when she had a cold, if he anointed her, Christ would have to come down and be crucified again. Huh??? One person who I met a few years ago told me his story that, when he asked to be anointed by Mr. E______, he replied, "Why should I come all the way from my area to anoint you?" That's great Christian behavior. Not!
I remember when I was entering teenage years (and the changes that were occurring); my mom couldn't handle this. She went to none other than Rob E______ and he basically told my mom to put me in my place or get out of the Y.O.U. Now he has his own little group the Orlando Church of God living off the tithes and offerings of his followers. I just ask, "Oh God, please open their eyes to follow the man from Galilee instead of the man from Orlando!"
I think it's also appropriate to put Mr. Phillip S______ name to this list. I am very angry and disappointed with this man. I remember he gave good sermons at the feast, now I hear he's in the sexual assault business. This while in an ultra fundamentalist cult called the Church of the Great God, and Pharisee, John Ritenbaugh is protecting him. This is unacceptable and it is my prayer That, if he's guilty as sin, may he be thoroughly punished to the highest penalty of the law.
Thank you again and I ask you again to withhold my name. Don't let the kooks, nuts and looneys get you down. There's so much of them. I stand by your side.
PS I am glad there's someone out there who's not fan of Earl Williams. I've read his New Covenant manifesto and it is the most Judeophobic and anti-Jewish leaning stuff that I've read.
Sorry, but I can't add these names to the list unless you add your name to the disfellowship list. Only those with the courage of their convictions can add to the list.
Thanks for sharing though.
Good luck to you.
A thought for all: True freedom comes when you remember how you were enslaved. As a long time friend, and newcomer to the computer world, I am truly overwhelmed to see the network you provide. Lest you grow weary when the hostility confronts you, please remember all the people who reach you for their historical truth of Herbert W. Armstrong Worldwide Church of God, and testimonials to the abuses. You provide understanding, compassion, and a way to vent anger and depression, also providing the resources to help them recover.
There is so much more ... but just remember, when weary that those who do not learn from history, will repeat it.
Thanks again for your work on this Website.
Best to you,
I am ashamed to read the letters from Worldwide Church of God.
Thanks for your message. Yes, the letters are shameful, especially from the "representatives of Jesus." I wonder if he knows who they are?
Couldn't find any 7/29/99 Ministerial Apologies updates. Is there a link I'm missing?
Thanks, its working now.
New on 8/1/99:
Ed, Why have only two ex-ministers signed the list to apologize (I assume they are ex-ministers)
To answer your question:
1. When they were anointed as "ministry" they were given the ability to shut their consciences off. Isn't that one of the fruits of the spirit? Some are even able to retain this ability after leaving the "ministry."
2. They are not repentant therefore they cannot apologize.
3. They need the money/retirement. It would take faith and a belief in God to just walk away. Of course, this is what they counseled all of us when we had to quit jobs to keep the Sabbath or Holy Days. But, this is different, don't you see that?
4. They are not repentant therefore they cannot apologize.
5. Where could they get another job that requires so little work and so much honor? They might have to actually WORK. Shudder.
6. They are not repentant therefore they cannot apologize.
7. God needs them to do His work for Him. We are talking about a really weak God here since he didn't have the power to change things while herbie was in charge. Doesn't matter that these are the same guys that misled us all those years, now God will use them to lead correctly. Uh, right.
8. They are not repentant therefore they cannot apologize.
9. They are afraid you will sue them. Maybe you should.
10. They are not repentant therefore they cannot apologize.
11. Each of them thinks that it is some other minister that should be sorry and not him.
12. They are not repentant therefore they cannot apologize.
13. They have always known that they were better than you. Apologizing would be, well............., humbling.
14. They are not repentant therefore they cannot apologize.
15. Because they are Christians, they can do whatever they want to you and God forgives them. Why can't you? You must be bitter. You had better repent or they will be in God's Kingdom and you will not. Too bad for you, but its your own fault.
16. They are not repentant therefore they cannot apologize.
17. They really do not believe there is a God.
18. They are not repentant therefore they cannot apologize.
19. Are you kidding? Sign-up lists were for members not ministers.
20. They are not repentant therefore they cannot apologize.
I would like to add J. Harold Lester to your list of disfellowshipped "ministers."
Primarily for YEARS of showing up 45 minutes late, then regularly extending services to 2-1/2 to 2-3/4 hours lengths; and for being more repetitious than the guys who say "megadittos" to Flush Limbaugh.
New on 8/2/99:
How did anyone miss Ronald Kelly? He was one of the four "presenters" on the Post-Herbert W. Armstrong World Tomorrow telecast. In 1988 or 89, he gave a sermon at Headquarters that was a "must play for all churches". We heard it in Fresno, and it was funny as hell. It was all about rightbrain, left-brain, male-female psychology, etc. It is best remembered for the phrase "Gotta Get To Phoenix!" (Anyone who heard the sermon, even if he has forgotten, will remember it by that phrase.)
In the sermon, Kelly tells about going shopping with his wife for a slip (or blouse or whatever). His wife is shopping, i.e., she looks a lot but does not buy. Kelly, according to him, is conquering; i.e., he picks out a garment and says "buy it". Only she doesn't, and this is supposed to demonstrate the difference in male-female psychology. He also tells about his daughter getting engaged to a young man who fawns over her and treats her like a queen.... until they are married. Then he gets busy with other things and pays less attention to her. Kelly says, when they were dating, the young man was in conquering mode. After they were married, he had already conquered, thus no longer paid as much attention to her. Etc.
Throughout the whole sermon, which was very interesting and extremely funny (at least to a bunch of deprived Worldwiders as we were at the time), Kelly is always speaking in the first person. All this happened to him, to his family.
Guess what? In 1989, the local pastor at Fresno staged a series of "family" seminars at which he played some video tapes by Garry Smalley, a well known Christian "family values" guy. As I sat staring at Smalley, I was stunned to discover that he was telling the same story Kelly had told us! Word for god___n word! Right-brain/left-brain. "Gotta get to Phoenix!" The shopping story. His daughter's boyfriend story! Everything Kelly had said had come directly from Garry Smalley. Everything! All of it! It was gross plagiarism!
And nobody ever said a word about it. The only good thing I can say for Kelly is that he did an excellent job of memorizing the material and delivering it, because it sounded just like he was doing it himself. But he stole the entire sermon from a "worldly" minister.
Therefore, for gross misrepresentation and thievery, I disfellowship Ronald Kelly!
In this, my second letter to your web site, I'd like to tell you about my life just before attending Worldwide Church of God.
I had a steady job, a fully furnished two bedroom apartment, a car, a motorcycle and a couple of dirt bikes. All of this I accomplished by the age of 21.
Upon joining the church the minister played with my head and made me believe that, as a tithe payer, God was going to bless me financially. Within 2 years I lost everything I had including my job and ended up being a roommate with a "going nowhere" member in an apartment that made the Beverly hillbillies home in the country (before they got rich) look like Trump Towers.
Larry Wooldridge, the minister at that time in my life,(this same minister that threatened me with the lake of fire earlier), acted as if nothing strange was happening. I didn't have the sense to see I was being scammed. If I had a little more depth at the time, I would have questioned in my mind that tithing just did not work.
Larry Wooldridge must have known that because he was in the church many years and had observed that wealth was something God gave only if it was his will. but, he perpetuated the lie while living in a beautiful home, new car, 100% wool suits and not having the stress associated with the hard living many had to deal with in the icy cold New England winters. He never had to worry about not being able to pay his heat bill or his kids going to school with improper winter clothing .He never had to walk in the snow because he was sending his tithes to the fat cats at headquarters.
Many members kept their cars in poor condition and it was very hard for them to get through the tough winter months. Some members lived dangerously because they had no snow tires.
After Larry Wooldrigde was transferred, (good riddance) another spiritual rocket scientist named Dennis Johnson gave me some profound words of wisdom during a financial crisis I was having in the middle of a rough winter. In my youthful immaturity I asked to meet with the minister for financial assistance and, thinking he was a man of god, I asked him why my finances were screwed up even though I was always faithful with my first tithe? He asked if I ever tampered with my tithes at all and I told him that I borrowed from my second tithe once in a while. He then gave me a stern look as if I had committed the unpardonable sin and he completely and skillfully dodged answering the question about why tithing does not work.
He also knew I was a full time student struggling on part time pay and he never offered to relieve me of my tithing burden. He did give me a small financial shot in the arm which temporarily kept my car from being repossessed. I think the weirdest thing that happened during that conversation was, when I told him my car was going to be repossessed. (He knew I lived in the next town which was about twenty five minutes drive by car.) I was astonished when he asked me if I ever thought of riding a bike!
God bless you Ed for exposing the spiritual freakshow
Your brother in Jesus
New on 8/4/99:
Please add my name to those who officially disfellowship the greedy, lying bastards of the Worldwide Church of God and all it's offshoots. Don't forget to add to the list my former Nazi minister (of what I don't know, cause it wasn't God) Ken Frank.
I almost vomited when I read Greg Albrechts dishonest, deceptive, irresponsible answer to a plea for that organization's taking responsibility for the damage it did to its members (myself included). That is the icing on the cake. I want nothing to do with those scum ever again.
James Meister (Please publish)
I gotta tell you, the more I read, the more &%$#@ing angry I get! Those lying, cheating, perverse bastards! Rapists and thieves. It just burns me up to think I paid their bills. I'm pissed. I haven't looked at your site for a couple of peaceful weeks. Thanks for sobering me up. Better than any sermon I ever heard.
I was a reader of books by the Armstrongs for many, many years. I still feel they taught me a lot from the Word of God. The question I have for you is how did you find out all these negative things about them? Did you research their lives? Were you a member of their church? I'm not writing to blast you or to say you are wrong, I want the truth. But I will say this no matter what kind of person Herbert was or Ted is, the Word Of God is still very much real and true! I don't worship any bible teacher, or leader, I worship God. He knows all truths and all lies and He will judge us all for our sins. How did you find ths stuff out? How did that ministry survive with all this "incest' going on? Surely it would not last if it was known? I'm just curious, I'm not attacking you I just want to know the truth. See I only read the booklets, and magazines I wasn't a full member of that church. They never got any of my money and I have loads of their free books! LOADS! Most of it is proven true in scriptures. But what they taught and the kind of people they are could possibly be two different things. Write me back. Tell me how are you so sure all these things on your website are true? If you aren't 100% sure they are true, then why put them on your website? Why slander anyone you aren't 100% sure about? However if you are 100% telling the truth, and can honestly do this without feeling guilty, go ahead and do it. Its America, freedom of speech. So tell me, how is this stuff true? Prove it true to me and I'll also believe. However if you can't prove it I will not believe you. And really what is the point of this website of your's if its not there to convience people they are deceived? If you fail to convience, you fail for the purpose and then you yourself appears as a liar.
Read the FAQ page. If that doesn't answer your questions, then I can't help you.
Believe whatever you want. You don't like The PT, go away and don't come back. Don't waste your and my time. There are plenty of Christian sites out there in cyberspace, go where you are happy and fulfilled even if you are wrong.
I want to know, when you gave the church all that money, did you give it to keep from going to Gehenna? Or did you give it out of love to help them teach the gospel which they have more than 10000% proven to me they used the money for. They never asked the public for 1 cent! If you gave to "keep from going to the lake of fire" you gave out of selfishness to begin with. We are to give to HELP TEACH THE GOSPEL NOT to keep from going to the lake of fire. I forwarded your website to Ted Armstrong's group. They wrote me back and said that no man can keep any other man from getting clensed from His sins through the blood of Christ, even if what you claim is true God forgave Herbert and you can't change that. They also told me that if I read all the negative things you wrote about the bible, the word of God, it should prove to me you were just a very bitter person. I'm inclined to believe them. You say outside of the bible there is no proof of Jesus Christ? What about Paul, Peter, the apostles, we know because of history they existed and were killed for teaching the gospel. We know by history that Peter was crucified upside down. We know how they all died. and the bible never tells how any of them died. We see you listed several books that were never included in the canon of the bible. That is also proof of Jesus's existance. The Old Testiment foretold of His life many years before He came. He fulfilled the prophesies. And as far as no man ever seeing God that is true. Moses saw JESUS'S backside, NOT God's, Jesus the SECOND MEMBER OF THE GOD FAMILY! He is God, and God the father who is INVISIBLE is HIM. They two make up ONE God family. I could clear up all those "contradictions" you claim the bible has. You are really confused. You should be looking for truth, not for lies.
Thank you for your message.
Please pray for my poor, lost, ignorant, bitter soul. Give a lot of money to Garner Ted so that he can do God's work of saving people just like me or just a little bit better than me because I am probably hopelessly lost. Spend a lot of time fasting for my redemption and for GTA's great work. I need your help. I am just so bitter that I have to keep on telling all these lies about herbie and the Bible even when I know they are not true. I am trying to make you lose your faith and salvation but you are just too smart for me. Tell all your friends, both of them, to stay away from the PT. Give them the address so they know what to stay away from.
The only thing GTA is qualified to comment on would be where the best masseuse can be found and the joys of masturbating, naked, on TV. Of course, you have to give him credit for the personal "education" of many hundreds of AC Coeds. What good is power if you can't use it for your own personal pleasure?
Have you ever heard of an email filter? I will be putting one on all further messages from you. Your messages will be deleted from the server without my even seeing them. I will not even know that you have written them. So please waste a lot of time writing me again. Be sure to include a lot of Bible verses because that will really convince me, when I don't read them.
Sorry, but I have a hard time tolerating fools. So just go away.
PS: Are you sure you aren't GTA?
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