Over a week after a tip-off that the CGI website was missing in action, there is still no sign of a Second Coming in cyberspace. Over a week off the Internet - what genius thought that was a good idea? Is CGI still out there? Hello? Helloooo?
News of the passing of Mrs Isobel Hoeh on November 21, wife of the late Dr Herman Hoeh.
For those with an interest in the historicity (or otherwise) of the Bible, this link to a recent book review was sent in from the Christian magazine Wittenburg Door. Nobody tell Clyde Kilough!
How much did lil' Joe get for the Ambassador Campus? $125,000,000 plus (over three separate transactions). How do we know this? Real Estate whiz Joseph P. McNulty - who takes the credit for the sales - tells us so in a promo for Edgewood Realty Partners. Click on the image to feel the gentle breeze off those greenbacks.
***
Postscript: Message from Vance (Stinson?) at CGI.
Gavin, thank you for your concern. You will be relieved to know that CGI is alive and well and that there has finally been some progress on the website. The site was supposed to be up and running by November 16, but, unfortunately, it didn't happen and still hasn't happened. (The new webmaster ran into some problems and was unable to deliver on time.) As you might imagine, we've been quite frustrated about this! The good news is that just this afternoon we were able to view the proposed homepage. The site should be back in operation within a couple of days or so--but please don't hold me to a definite date.
98 comments:
It is sad to learn of the death of Mrs Hoeh, but I am sure she enjoyed a long and happy life.
On the other hand, Tkach and his partners in crime hated everything that HWA stood for, except the wealth he left behind. If I hated anyone the way they hate HWA, I would reject his legacy. But money tends to make hypocrites of most people.
Of course, some of the brethren might be entitled to a share of the proceeds from the sale of the family of God assets. But to get your share, it may require legal action against Joe and the cabal. Personally, I won't accept a penny from them.
However, the more important question is, what will they have to say to Jesus in the day of judgement about their greed and covetousness?
Judas Joe Tkach,
Show your WCG co-workers and tithe paying, building fund paying brethren the money!!!!
Show us the money!!!
Oh, and by the way, where is the money????
Gotta say this much for Joey...
With the subprime mess, and the resultant real estate collapse, both commercial and residential in Southern California, Tkach's timing for the sale of the property looks absolutely perfect.
This is the part of the movie where it looks like the "Bad Guys" are winning. Cant wait to see how the movie ends... but please, will somebody give me a clue without spoiling the ending!!
Lussenheide
Tom saith:
But money tends to make hypocrites of most people.
Except the Herbster, of course. He was as pure as the wind driven snow. And he only amassed all that wealth to make sure we all got this lesson (to quote Time Magazine):
"Brethren, I'm getting mine now. But you'll get yours in the kingdom."
Hey..I thought Jesus worked a miracle and "we don't have any money as a result." Ron Kelly
I remember Joe Sr. scoffing at an offer of $300,000.
I wonder who got the gold letters that used to say "House for God" Maybe someone somewhere has a really nice "DOG House"
Well at least the mystery of the WCG decade is solved.
Vonhowitzer: Dennis here
Thought I'd comment here since the posting moved on.
Thanks for your kind perspective. It's true. I have friends in UCG etc who do not believe what the church is saying but stay for the social needs and that's ok too. What I find now is that the pastors will let one practically believe what they wish as long as they still attend. (Not the radical 'we only' types of course)
As long as one does not make waves or take more members, staying is now an option. That's the evolution of need. When the needs are great for a church, they evolve the tolerances it takes to keep the sheep. I also know of ministers who doubt much as well.
I'm mostly upset with myself and work on letting it go. I have never found ongoing anger or bitterness to help anything, including one's physical self, much less their soul. Stuff happens. We all have a story. If it was not this story, it would be some other story. I am not my story. I am. And it's really nice not to worry about Satan, lakes of fire, hell or getting whacked by a God because he loves us so much.
Love Jesus or burn forever in hell just seems a bit deficient for a God. It's like the gods run out of ideas on how to fix what they could not clearly explain or something :)
If you get the time to read through the postings at WCG's "The Surprising God Blog" (and I bet it does surprise him!), you'll see just how difficult it is to explain in a coherent way.
http://thesurprisinggodblog.wcg.org/
"We come today, as every Sunday, to celebrate Christ—the one who has come, is coming and will come. We celebrate his comings in the Advent season which begins next Sunday and extends through Christmas."
Sermon intro for Xmas.
I wonder how'd they feel if they understood they are celebrating the advent of SUN brought forth by the Virgo who after about 30 degrees, I mean years, "for Jesus was about 30 when he began to preach," goes on to Aquarius, the Waterman to be baptised? Tis the Astro-theological season after all. :) Ok, I won't bring that up one more time this year!
Happy Hanukkahkmass
At least 125,000,000 huh?
$125 million+ for the prison to change into the hands of another religion.
Speaks reams about what "God" thinks about the legacy of Herbert Armstrong.
... I am sure she enjoyed a long and happy life.
Hey! Tom is a psychic!
In Old Testament Times he'd be stoned to death.
These days, he should get his own hotline.
125 million seems a little low actually. I wonder what the issues were with the property, buildings, and surrounding real estate that it went that way. There are places in NJ where a 1/4 acre lot with a 3000 sq ft home goes for a mil.
Pfizer bought an AT&T campus not to far from where I work that is smaller and not as good looking as the Pasadena campus for $200 mil and that was 5 years ago.
That means that Tkach owes us former members only about 1,700 bucks each?
That doesn't seem quite right, somehow.
Tkach must have sold at way, way below market value.
One thing we know, we gave a premium price for it originally.
Also...the realter is not sharing with us that he got free subscriptions to "Ask Gregg" and Plain Truth Ministry stuff under the table...:)
Tom,
Well Mr Shenton was my pastor too in those good old days in the WCG.
He was also in charge of the UCG congregation before he split off and went with Hulme.
I don't really know him that well to make the comments that you made about him although he did warn some members to stay away from one exWCG in 1993 when a few left the church (whom also believed in the old teachings).
Mr Shenton at that time wasn't prepared to preach the new truth even when he was paid to do so. It was really ironic.
Obviously he didn't believe the new teachings but was a bit hypocritical in the way he warned members to have nothing to do with those people who left the church to hang on to those old teachings.
Those days of seeming ministerial hypocricy were not that at all for the most part.
It was utter confusion and new wine forced into old wineskins by the Tkaches. The results were predicatable.
We were told that we would still keep Sabbath, then we were told we could but others could keep sunday. Then Sunday was in and Sabbath was out. No sunday, no job. I personally believe the turmoil weakened and finally killed my own brother in law at a young age. I have other minister friends, now dead, who I know for sure died of the stress and disappointing confusion inflicted upon the church and their good efforts by the Tkaches. When we say "the Church did this or that" we need to say, "The Tkaches"
We were told "no we won't not keep the holydays. Then you could but others could keep xmas too, then xmas/easter was in and holydays were out and so were you if you advocated them. Of course if you want to go on the Fall for Jesus Cruise with Joe every year, that's different.
The duplicity dragged on from the Tkaches for years. That's why a man could seem to be one way and then the other. He was hoping the madness would stop and believed the current truth when it wasn't true at all.
In my experience, the Tkaches were and are a most ridiculous example of pseudo theologians in America. The Church is nothing compared with most and less than nothing now, but the thousands and tens of thousands hurt by those two men and others such as Dan Rogers, Mike Feazell, Bernie Schnippert, Greg Albrecht and Ron Kelly is profound. And each one of the these men has never taken any personally responsibility. They truly believe a Jesus did it all and they were merely obedient servants of the Most High.
While I obviously have moved out of any particular belief, what they did was wrong and while they have a whole department dedicated to reconciliation between blacks and whites in the church (it was never much of a problem in my experience) they need a bigger department dedicated to the reconciliation they never will admit to between themselves and the tens of thousands whose good faith they squandered and spit on.
It was a very confusing time for the good men I knew personally, as they boys at HQ played church. They are still playing church.
After years of holding my peace, I simply couldn't restrain myself any longer. (Bad psychology, and not intended literally - but then again, as readers with long memories will recall, those adults who heard the child say that the ocean had wet its pants "haven't stopped laughing since"--even if they're dead now. Hmm... do you think it's possible to take literalism too far sometimes?)
But now for the trunk of the tree:
Could the timing be merely COINCIDENTAL? Discover NEW VISTAS OF UNDERSTANDING (made so plain that even an ADMINISTRATOR could understand)!
Yes, even as speculation intensifies as to what--if anything--remains behind the virtual Suit of Armour, we are privileged to be able to bring you a WORLD-SCOOP-EXCLUSIVE LOOK at a priceless, recently rediscovered family heirloom, hidden until now behind The Wittenburg Door:
(Note to the unconverted: checking your brain in before proceeding through the door--which, very conveniently, swings both ways--is strictly voluntary):
http://archives.wittenburgdoor.com/archives/sillytalks.html
Disclaimer: The information in this post is exceedingly brief and condensed. So even if you read it one time, two times and half a time again, you probably still won't get it. Nevertheless, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!
Gavin, thank you for your concern. You will be relieved to know that CGI is alive and well and that there has finally been some progress on the website. The site was supposed to be up and running by November 16, but, unfortunately, it didn't happen and still hasn't happened. (The new webmaster ran into some problems and was unable to deliver on time.) As you might imagine, we've been quite frustrated about this! The good news is that just this afternoon we were able to view the proposed homepage. The site should be back in operation within a couple of days or so--but please don't hold me to a definite date.
Sorry - the extension "html" was missing from the link I posted. Or click here
HI'YA Vance!! you don't post at your blog anymore?
Dennis:
I agree that if I had been able to avoid WCG I'd have probably filled the void of stupidity in my life by some other means. I do have regrets, but it's mostly about things I didn't do rather than the things I did, however whacked they were.
Part of my reason for visiting this site is reading the perspectives of those that have shared that experience, part is keeping up with the news of all these miserable little cogs with a little bit of schadenfreude mixed in for their soon coming demise. Many different paths have been taken by those that post here - I'm somewhat puzzled at what Gavin is trying to do, annoyed that those that have chosen atheism have decided to try and cram it down our throats, learned from those that have gone back to their roots, and am ready to start a pool as to how soon Tom will use the word "cabal" in a posting.
I've also personally benefitted from the writings of Philip Yancey. He grew up in a legalistic church environment as well and attended a bible college that was at least as hypocritical and filled with posturing as AC. His writings take a refreshingly honest look at difficult topics.
The xcogs have turned themselves into little museum pieces of Harmstrongology - every one has to follow the business model set down by the founder, even if that business model is outdated today. Must have a magazine, must have a tele/radiocast, must have a youth magazine, must have member letters, must have a minister newsletter, must send out tapes from HQ, and must hold the FOT in the same old places. How many years has Jekyll seen the autumnal crowds of feasters? Do none of these cog leaders have a shred of imagination, or are they so afraid of losing members from deviating the slightest from any Harmstrong orthodoxy?
Now we see JT2 bagged $125 million for the sale of the campus. Maybe he netted $90 - $100 million after expenses, but that's still a tidy sum to put into "reserves". But we'll never know since Unaccountable Joe doesn't have to give account to anyone, not even his own members. Why they don't make an issue of it is a puzzle to me, but then again, having all the members leave might just be ok with Joe and his gang.
When JT2's book came out it struck me as a pile of stinking fish because it lacked any sort of description about how the changes affected him personally. My God, you're the leader of a religious cult and find out that you've been preaching heresey for years and your reaction is ... nothing? When did Joe the Deuce break out in a cold sweat? stomach hurt? feel a bit anxious? Who did he consult about what he had found out? I've been told by some that know Joe that he doesn't like revealing things like that about himself, but that strikes me as another dead mackerel.
I've had pastors as varied as Aust and Wooten, but today I value people that are authentic and honest, even if I don't always agree with them.
KMS
"...annoyed that those that have chosen atheism..."
Chosen?? As if a disbelief in humanity's latest God O' The Month is just another belief in a God O' The Month. I did not choose to be an atheist anymore than I chose to accept gravity. There is no evidence for God. That's it. One can either accept that, and act accordingly, or ignore it, and create a belief system. The latter, to me, is one of "choosing."
Paul
Paul
>>>There is no evidence for God.<<<
What evidence do you have that there is no evidence of God?
Vance said...
>>>Gavin, thank you for your concern.<<<
While I don't speak for Gavin, I think Gavin is more curious than concern. CGI was started by the lecherous GTA with the support of his admirers. Who in their right mind would be concerned whether it survives or not? It serves no valuable purpose, except, I supposed, to teach us the depth to which human wickedness is capable of plunging.
>>>You will be relieved to know that CGI is alive and well and that there has finally been some progress on the website.<<<
You might be surprised to learn that it neither alive nor well.
Von Howitzer KMS said:
"I'm .. annoyed that those that have chosen atheism have decided to try and cram it down our throats,"
Do you think skeptical views should be supressed like at JFL ? How is it going over there these days ?
The Ambassador College neighborhood is very upscale now compared to the 1970s but Herb's pompous buildings were a liability: The Auditorium alone would cost close to $100 million to build today - but who would want to build such an outrageous gilded show palace ?..so it (finally) sells for a big discount - to another band of Jesus Cranks of course.
Know Jesus, No Peace
No Jesus, Know Peace
>>I did not choose to be an atheist anymore than I chose to accept gravity. There is no evidence for God. That's it.
In my search I came across the film, The God Who Wasn't There(Found it on the atheist film blog).
I was looking forward to watching it if only to convince myself that I had been wrong all these years.
Unfortunately the film was disappointing, it came across has one man's bitter experience with a church he used to attend.
There wasn't really much in the way of real biblical criticism, or looking at the historical roots of Christianity.
There were some interesting points but not enough to start me on the course to atheism. I have yet to be convinced.
"There wasn't really much in the way of real biblical criticism,"
You don't need atheists for 'real biblical criticism', the leading Catholic & Protestant scholars are doing a fine job of tearing the bible to shreds - and justly so !
"There wasn't really much in the way of real biblical criticism,"
The most interesting aspect to come out of Armstrongism is the number of people who have turned to atheism.
Darrell Conder (www.darrellwconder.com/) with his self promoted website, books with his historical research did at one time start to worry the CoGs.
Conder goes to great lengths to prove the Bible is a complete fraud.
The COGs wrote a rebuffal to Darrell Conder's writings which appeared on the biblestudy.org website.
Tom asks: "What evidence do you have that there is no evidence of God?"
Both God and Jesus have a tendency to not show up at "please save, help, bless, cure or hold us" human occasions. Mighty Mouse still tends to be the one that I think of when I hear, "Hear he comes to save the day...Mighty Mouse is on the way....."
After that there is something about opening the windows of heaven for tithing and asking whatever you will and I will give it to you. (which of course would be a disaster if really done.)
When speaking of "God" in the context, of course I mean "BIBLEGOD" This does not negate the possibilities of human consciousness, mind and brain studies, past life experiences or reincarnation.
In the Bible belt South, out in the Mountains...we call it "Re-in-tarnation."
You can probably get a deal on Oral Roberts University property in a couple years.
Also, for what it is worth, for all the bluster, Apostle Pack has about 200 members and no other ministers other than in house ordinations. I mean, not that he is about numbers or anything like that.
Since we always wondered about the sale of the campus, we can now lay to rest what "the work is about to burst onto the world scene" for Dave means. Downloads and such are the criteria. Heck, 200,000 folks have read my articles in the last two years and not one follower has come to my HQ. Bummer :)
I must be living wrong. :)
Well ok, they looked at them. They may not have read them.
dd
Robert said...
>>>Well Mr Shenton was my pastor too in those good old days in the WCG.<<<
In retrospect, he was a very bad politician, but a politician nonetheless. He feared Joe Junior and Mike Feazell, who threatened to sack him if he didn't tow the HQ line. So he keep quite about his stance on the changes. When he left WCG with his financial package and joined UCG, he spoke out against the changes. But it was too late, as most of the brethren had already died spiritual poisoning.
>>>He was also in charge of the UCG congregation before he split off and went with Hulme.<<<
Joining Hulme was a matter of expediency, and loyalty to a fellow Englishman. If Hulme was Russian, no one in the UK would touch him with the proverbial barge pole.
With many years experience of computer software, DNA coding is to me an irrefutable proof of a higher power.
It’s not just the code, it’s also mindless cells ability to universally understand what the code means.
'It’s not just the code, it’s also mindless cells ability to universally understand what the code means"
Or maybe it's the " conscious observer" that expresses itself through the mind and that has a body but is not the body that knows the code :) Or not!
It's all quite amazing! The more we know, the less we understand. But the hunt is fun. Imagine all the life out there in the universe that we'll never know about. What's looking back at us? :)
Anonymous said...
Both God and Jesus have a tendency to not show up at "please save, help, bless, cure or hold us" human occasions. ....
Maybe the reason they don't show up is they don't recognize who is doing the asking because they've never heard from those persons before.
If one is only speaking to God when they need something and ignoring him the rest of the time......need I say more?
and Anon..also said
After that there is something about opening the windows of heaven for tithing and asking whatever you will and I will give it to you. (which of course would be a disaster if really done.)
#1 It doesn't say " I will give you whatever you ask for" read it in Mal.3:10
#2 Read the book from the beginning and see who these verses are addressing.
Greedy priests who profaned the Temple....a curse was put upon them and only if they returned to God would He return to them and give blessings that they wouldn't have room enough to receive.
Hasn't happened has it?
The greedy priests get greedier among the "shepherds" of the flock and the flock gets devoured.
And people blame God.
All
Currently there is a lot of hand wringing and soul searching by Dennis and others over how they behaved in the dying days of WCG. However, hand wringing and soul searching will not wash. Neither will excuses about being under stress, confused nor uncertainty about the direction of HQ wash, either.
None of the ministers in WCG knew what it was really like to be under severe stress. They had an expense account, a church car, often a church house and a decent salary, plus all the other perks that came with the job.
Now let us contrast their comfortable life style with that of the Chosen Vessel as outlined in the epistle to the Corinthians. Narrative is as follows: "In labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prison more frequent, in death often. Of the Jews five times received I forty strips save one, thrice was I beaten with rods, once was stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; in weariness and painfulness, in watching often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness. Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches."
Yet Paul never once complained that he was under stress or confused. On the contrary, he reminded himself of his God given responsibility to CARE for the flock by saying: "Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the CARE of all the churches."
Doesn't reading this makes you feel inadequate, and unworthy to be called a Christian?
However, in most cases, the ministers in WCG had one or two churches to care for. Yet when the crisis came, they took a bribe and abandoned the flock. It would take the passion and cogent logic of Saint Augustine, and the lucidity and eloquence of Cicero, to describe their diabolical betrayal of God's people.
These evil men were ordained without understanding the role and character of a minister. A true minister of God must:
1)renounced the hidden things of
dishonesty.
2)not walk in craftiness.
3)nor handle the word of God
deceitfully.
4)but by manifestation of the truth
commends himself to every man's
conscience in the sight of God
(11 Cor.4:2).
It would be a laborious exercise for me to show that 99.9% of all WCG ministers were and are guilty of failing to live up to these noble principles.
So there is no point in Dennis and the other ministers here or any where else, making excuses for their betrayal of God's people. Your sin is unforgivable! Even Judas did try to give back the 30 pieces of silver, but not one WCG minister is willing to return his financial package!
How appalling!
Give me a call Tom. We can discuss your observations and just how the Spirit of God flows through your mind.
"A true minister of God must:
1)renounced the hidden things of
dishonesty.
So was Paul called from the womb as he said in Galatians or with a blast of Jesus light on a road? Paul says birth, Luke says road and then screws up the details.
Was Paul really the smartest guy in his class..above all others? And if so, why couldn't he get a better Job in the temple than thug or tentmaker? Is Dave Pack, Paul reincarnated?
Was Paul really a Pharisee under Gamaliel? Luke says so. Paul never refers to it and can't argue like one no matter what you think. Paul braggs about his credentials and then diminishes them. An ego trick. He'd be the first Pharisee in the world with Roman Citizenship.
2)not walk in craftiness.
"I become all things to all men, to the jew, a jew...." that's pretty dishonest in Jesus and crafty to me.
3)nor handle the word of God
deceitfully.
Time would fail to show how Paul's view of law was flawed and never what either Pharisees or Jews thought about their own book.
Paul misquoted the OT to make his Hellenistic ideas work for him. This is a man who thinks that because the OT says, "the promise is to you and to your seed" and that we need to notice the OT does not say "as unto seeds" therefore the word is singular and "that seed was Christ." I guess Jesus should have said, "Feed my sheeps."
You live in a very small world Tom.
This is what every minister in town says about every other minister and their church excluding themselves of course.
If you had eyes to see it, and most don't, you'd see all these flaws in your Bible heroes (Peter, Luke, Matthew (Bigtime) John, Paul, and whoever wrote Revelations, both Old and New and just because they made the rules, does not mean in the least they were able to abide by them either.
Suck all your self righteous judgements and sit down with...
http://www.amazon.com/Antisemitism-New-Testament-Lillian-Freudmann/dp/0819192953
and learn the meaning of handeling the Word of God deceitfully by your favorite characters in the NT
Dennis
Tom comments:
So there is no point in Dennis and the other ministers here or any where else, making excuses for their betrayal of God's people. Your sin is unforgivable! Even Judas did try to give back the 30 pieces of silver, but not one WCG minister is willing to return his financial package!
How appalling!
#1 the only unforgivable sin is found, among other books, in
Luke 12:10 "And everyone who will speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him.
One can betray God's people and be forgiven...if it is repented of.
As for any financial package one might have received.....I'd say it would go a long way in getting forgiveness if the minister would have divided it up and given it out among some of the neediest families of the church.
That would show genuine repentance more than words.
Actions usually speak louder than words and shows a truer picture of the inner man.
Although Tom in reading your words, you don’t appear to be the kind of minister....who would be kind.
And I’m glad your not mine.
PS
"The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, he who is blessed forever, knows that I do not lie...."(II Corinthians. 11:31-33).
"But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and had called me through his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not confer with flesh and blood, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia; and again I returned to Damascus. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas, and remained with him fifteen days. But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord's brother. In what I am writing to you, before God, I do not lie! (Galatians 1:15-20)
Either Luke or Paul is lying about this. Can't both be true.
"For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the gentiles in faith and truth" (I Timothy 2:7).
"I am speaking the truth in Christ, I am not lying; my conscience bears witness in the Holy Spirit...(Romans 9:1-3).
I count four times here, in the New Testament epistles, that Paul denied that he was lying:
Obviously many thought he was lying or being deceitful. Notice that it's not humans who defend his veracity. It is God, Jesus or the HS . Why are we never told why Mark left Paul or Demas gave up on the program? Was Paul not convincing? Why did "all" forsake him? Did they catch on?
Let's not forget that after the Acts 15 Council where Paul "agreed" according to Luke, Paul went right back to Corinth and told the folks there to forget about the Council stuff, because "in all men is not that knowledge." This of course was his view of his knowledge.
Paul lied. Other contradiction from Paul’s letters, when placed together find him actually denying that he is a servant of Christ! In Galatians 1:10, we find him writing:
"Am I seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still pleasing men, I should not be a servant of Christ."
This is a good statement, thoroughly consistent with the doctrine of Jesus, which places the desires of men over against those of God. Therefore, those who seek to please men cannot be the servants of Christ.
But Paul had something more to say on this subject, from I Corinthians 10:32, 33:
"
Give no offense to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God, just as I try to please all men in everything I do, . . ."
Did he, or did he not, try to please men? Of course he did. That's why he was accused of being a big talker out of sight, but not such a good speaker or pursuader in real life.
This is the guy that slipped out of Damascus in a basket over the wall because the Jews were after him, or was it the King Aretas...depends on who you believe. Luke says Jews. Paul says King. I don't think Paul would just say the Jews did. I think he'd feel more important if it was the King..so I vote King.
Ok, too much information.
Dennis
OK..and finally, comment 40, number of trial and completion.
"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us – for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who hangs on a tree.” – that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."
(Galatians 3:13,14).
It is clear that Paul, by use of "we" in the last line of this quotation, is classifying himself with the Gentiles, who receive the promise of the Spirit. Was this simply a slip, and inadvertent error, or has he revealed his true nationality? Perhas the Ebionites were correct in noting that Paul was a Gentile and not a Pharisee at all. That was their seeming opinion long ago.
All this to say Tom, one needs to be careful categorizing people who don't meet up to your Biblical standards, when the characters in your Bible leave plenty of room by their own words ( or words put in their mouths) for the same smug observations.
amen
So, Tom, are you different from the 99% of WCG ministers? Did you take a vow of poverty, and are you being tortured and shipwrecked? Have you made the Lord Jesus Christ your priority, the center of all of your activities and loyalties? And, did you stand up when you were giving WCG sermons and tell people that the Tkach's were dishing out nothing more that a bunch of spiritual rubbish?
Enquiring minds want to know these things!
BB
"What evidence do you have that there is no evidence of God?"
Where is he? (Looking under the seat) Where is he? (Looking out the window) Where is this God of yours? He used to walk the earth and appear to men. Where is he now?
I have as much evidence against God as I have against leprechauns and space vampires.
Paul
"Who in their right mind would be concerned whether it survives or not? It serves no valuable purpose, except, I supposed, to teach us the depth to which human wickedness is capable of plunging."
Actually, if one has to be wrapped up in Amrstrongism in one of the splinter groups, CGI is not a bad place. At least they dealt with the trash, and try to reach out to other groups. As opposed to not dealing with the trash (anyone who upholds HWA) and not reaching out to other groups (All of the big splinter groups except CGI).
Paul
"It’s not just the code, it’s also mindless cells ability to universally understand what the code means."
A cell doesn't "understand" the "code" at all. Proteins active transcription of the "code", and a protein product is produced which carries out a function in the cell.
Paul
"I have yet to be convinced."
Convinced by what? What does it take to convince someone that a leprechaun does not exist? Imagine if I had said this:
"I watched the video about the guy who doesn't belive in flying purple unicorns. He makes some interesting points, but I'm not convinced."
Tom said . . .
What evidence do you have that there is no evidence of God?
You just said it. There is no evidence - and that's the evidence that God doesn't exist.
If God did exist, there would be evidence, but there's not, so he doesn't.
See how simple that is?
Someone reports a crime being committed but when the crime scene is investigated it is found to have no evidence of a crime being committed. What do you do, keep on calling it a crime scene?
Byker Bob said...
>>>So, Tom, are you different from the 99% of WCG ministers? Did you take a vow of poverty, and are you being tortured and shipwrecked? Have you made the Lord Jesus Christ your priority, the center of all of your activities and loyalties? And, did you stand up when you were giving WCG sermons and tell people that the Tkach's were dishing out nothing more that a bunch of spiritual rubbish?<<<
Byker Bob said...
>>>>So, Tom, are you different from the 99% of WCG ministers? Did you take a vow of poverty, and are you being tortured and shipwrecked? Have you made the Lord Jesus Christ your priority, the center of all of your activities and loyalties? And, did you stand up when you were giving WCG sermons and tell people that the Tkach's were dishing out nothing more that a bunch of spiritual rubbish?<<<<
The day will declare it.
"The day will declare it."
Like the Gifts O' The Spirit in Charismatic circles, persecution and suffering in the COG's (aka, God's True People) are but shadows of what they were as told in the Bible. Where once a man might be shipwrecked for the Lord, now a flat tire suffices for suffering. Being thrown to the lions has been reduced to losing a job over the Sabbath as far as being persecuted for the faith. So in the eyes of modern day COG'ers, I guess Tom has suffered for the faith.
Paul
JOE..... you think you can give the finger to GOD and all those who sacrificed to give the money that you have now poketed.... HEAR the thunder JOE.... the finger is coming after you !!!
The reviewer writes: "The heart of the book is van der Toorn’s close reading of two monuments of scribal culture—Deuteronomy and Jeremiah—showing how the different layers of their construction reveal different scribal concerns at different points in Israel’s history."
While this may pass for rigor in the world of Biblical criticism, it sounds like just another guy with another theory based on a subjective reading of something that he has already decided to discredit out of personal motivations.
-- Neo
Paul & others of an atheist bent.
My point was the mathematical impossibility of the existence of mind-bendingly complex life happening by chance.
To claim the universe and life must have happened by chance, simply because it is here is as sensible as looking under your seat, not finding God, and assuring everyone that God therefore does not exist. (As you did a few postings back).
The evidence of a Creator is the creation.
Tom said...
"While I don't speak for Gavin, I think Gavin is more curious than concern."
I know. I was attempting to lace my explanation with some mild humor. I didn't really think Gavin was losing sleep over the CGI website; nor did I think he'd be able to rest more peacefully once he heard that CGI is "alive and well."
Questeruk said...
Paul & others of an atheist bent.
My point was the mathematical impossibility of the existence of mind-bendingly complex life happening by chance.
To claim the universe and life must have happened by chance, simply because it is here is as sensible as looking under your seat, not finding God, and assuring everyone that God therefore does not exist. (As you did a few postings back).
The evidence of a Creator is the creation.
I would suggest less reading of creationist web sites like "Answers in Genesis" and more reading in "Talk Origins" web site.
For one thing complex life didn't happen by chance. It evolved from non-complex life.
The universe wasn't "created" (past tense), it is still expanding. So, if anything it is still creating itself.
Why do you reckon a god created that storm on Jupiter? For modern folks to look at and wonder about? And why did two planets collide and leave a trail of asteroids in it's wake? So that a god could use one of them to destroy 96% of all living things on earth 250 million years ago and another one to destroy the dinosaurs 65 million years ago?
"My point was the mathematical impossibility of the existence of mind-bendingly complex life happening by chance."
It's not mathematically impossible.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/abioprob.html
"To claim the universe and life must have happened by chance, simply because it is here is as sensible as..."
...as claiming the universe and life must have been created by an invisible supernatural being simply because it is here.
"...looking under your seat, not finding God, and assuring everyone that God therefore does not exist."
Well? What are rational people supposed to do? By your logic, I should also believe in every single mythological being from leprechauns to Superman because I have no evidence for them!! I should also believe in every god, to include Allah and Vishnu, because I have no evidence for them!!
Paul
>> I have no evidence for them!!
I was watching the History Channel where they featured Haunted Hotels where guests get more than they bargained for when checking in!
Guests have actually been made quivering wrecks by supernatural goings on in haunted hotels.
Guests have claimed to seen objects lifting in the air, hearing knocking noises, seeing spiritual entities. In one hotel every now and again guests would find their playing cards laid out in poker hands or they find their loose change all stacked up. It was their friendly ghost who was a rogue gambler (so the story goes).
For all you non believers book yourself into a haunted hotel for the weekend and let me know how you get on.(www.hauntedhotelguide.com/)
"The evidence of a Creator is the creation."
No, ~your~ evidence for a Creator is the Bible. The Bible is why you believe God created everything.
I don't know how many times I have heard Christians claim that one of the reasons they believe in God is nature. The implication is they, apart from Genesis, just came to the conclusion that there simply must be a designer, a creator, and therefore this led to their belief or confirmed their belief in God/Allah. While this may be true for a minority, I do not believe for a second that this is true for the majority. What really happened is that they ~were Christians who believed in the Genesis account~ or people who ~believed in some diety~ in the first place. It's an association after the fact.
Paul
"Guests have claimed to seen objects lifting in the air, hearing knocking noises, seeing spiritual entities."
Why is it that ghosts always knock on things? A joke or something? I mean, why do ALL ghosts seem to knock on things? Do they spread the word? "Hey guys, when you haunt a house, knock on stuff, okay?"
Paul
>>>Hey guys, when you haunt a house, knock on stuff, okay?"
It will be more of a case (get thee behind me Satan) before running out of the door!
Demons and Satan himself are confined by God to haunted houses.
They cannot leave the premises and can only come out after the sun goes down. Sometimes they are allowed some free time in Milwaukee.
Even God had to get Jacob to let him go before the sun came up. There was something about sunshine that annoys God and he just had to go so he blessed Jacob and got the hell back to heaven in the nick of time. Evidently there is no sunshine in heaven.
"It will be more of a case (get thee behind me Satan) before running out of the door!"
I thought when you said "Get behind me Satan," he was supposed to actually get behind you. Not you leave him behind you by running! Running from Satan is not Biblical and doesn't count as a "get thee behind me." :)
Actually that's more a case of "get me ahead of thee Satan."
Paul said:-
It's not mathematically impossible.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/abioprob.html
I had a brief look at this reference. Unfortunately, like many people Ian Musgrove who wrote the piece, is not too aware of how probability works.
E.g. he states a basic concept ‘Now the probability of 4 heads in a row is (1/2)4 or 1 chance in 16: do we have to do 16 trials to get 4 heads (HHHH)? No, in successive experiments I got 11, 10, 6, 16, 1, 5, and 3 trials before HHHH turned up. The figure 1 in 16 (or 1 in a million or 1 in 1040) gives the likelihood of an event in a given trial, but doesn't say where it will occur in a series. You can flip HHHH on your very first trial (I did).’
He is stating a mathematical error even in this very basic idea. He may have done his ‘random trial’, but the actual mathematics if you do sixteen throws you will have approx 65% chance of getting a specific sequence (in this case HHHH). This is very standard probability mathematics.
In the first section he states that ‘the entire premise is incorrect to start off with, because in modern abiogenesis theories the first "living things" would be much simpler’.
This is an argument based on zero substance. These ‘living things’ have no evidence of having existed, but to give the random chance idea a snowballs chance in hell of being feasible we just have to imagine that such a ‘living thing’ existed – purely on some sort of faith.
But then it does take faith to be an atheist – a faith that I don’t have.
Paul misquoted the OT to make his Hellenistic ideas work for him.
Maybe. Or maybe those OT texts that don't match up with St. Paul's quotes are the result of later copying errors and textual corruption. Or maybe St. Paul was faithfully quoting a corrupt text. But there's not an adequate basis to conclude that St. Paul had misquoted the OT, any more than there is an adequate basis to conclude that the beliefs of the Pharisees are reported circa 200 A.D. were exactly the same as the beliefs of the Pharisees in the time of Christ and the Apostles.
No, ~your~ evidence for a Creator is the Bible. The Bible is why you believe God created everything.
Was the Bible also the reason why the classical pagan philosophers cam to believe in one God who created all things?
I don't know how many times I have heard Christians claim that one of the reasons they believe in God is nature.
Well, since so many of them say it, it can't possibly be true.
It's the main reason I believe in God. Even if I weren't a Christian, even if put no stock in the Bible, I would be compelled by reason to accept the existence of God.
But of course you know that not really true, because, well, you just know, and people who disagree with you are wrong, so there.
The implication is they, apart from Genesis, just came to the conclusion that there simply must be a designer, a creator, and therefore this led to their belief or confirmed their belief in God/Allah.
No, there's no such implication at all.
While this may be true for a minority, I do not believe for a second that this is true for the majority.
True, but irrelevant.
There are such things as ghosts people. There is a graveyard down around Los Angeles that recorded one talking. Click HERE
The article is HERE
Paul said: "Well? What are rational people supposed to do?"
Paul, rational people should not believe irrational / unreasonable things. That constraint is not limited to some of the more 'questionable' things in the bible, it extends to all irrational things...including abiogenesis, evolution, honest politicians, Tom as a decent human being, and and islam as a peaceful religion. :)
A rational person follows the evidence and only believes in things once proven. You can favor evolutionary theory but to claim it as proven and believe in it is gross folly.
At the simplest level, I believe in God through unquestionably answered prayer. (And most of them happened AFTER I left the WCG, Tom.)
I know my experience isn't proof to anyone else, including other believers, but it is enough for me. It also does not mean I hold the bible to be inerrant...cause I don't.
"This is an argument based on zero substance."
As opposed to the argument that a supernatural entity magically created everything? What substance is there for that argument? Do we have any evidence of substances being magically created? Why do you find one proposition laughable but the other plausible even thought there is zero evidence to support it???
Answer: Cause the Bible sez so, that's why.
Paul
Paul
"At the simplest level, I believe in God through unquestionably answered prayer."
Which I assume did not involve the miraculous healing of an amputee.
Paul
"But then it does take faith to be an atheist – a faith that I don’t have."
But if atheism (the disbelief in gods) requires faith, then you do have that faith, in abundance! For you do not believe in Allah and Vishnu, do you? If you do not believe in Vishnu, then (according to your logic) you too have the faith required to be an atheist.
Paul
"Was the Bible also the reason why the classical pagan philosophers cam to believe in one God who created all things?'
It was an inability to rationally explain how things came to be. Which is the same reason Genesis was written.
Paul
I remember recently a church in Central California was sold out from underneath its members by the pastor who bought a nice car with the proceeds, the members did get the church back but still were fighting to get the parsonage back last I heard.
Paul,
You are very intelligent. You had just displayed it!
Paul
If someone asserts that something doesn't exist, they should be able to prove that their assertion is true, otherwise the assertion is meaningless.
Charlie said:
>>>At the simplest level, I believe in God through unquestionably answered prayer. (And most of them happened AFTER I left the WCG, Tom.)<<<
I have no reason to doubt that your prayers have been answered. However, if you have joined the scoffers in being critical of HWA, your prayers have not been answered.
I said: "At the simplest level, I believe in God through unquestionably answered prayer."
Paul said: "Which I assume did not involve the miraculous healing of an amputee."
No Paul, it did not. In fact I cannot think of one instance where this has ever happened.
It did include a healing, saving my life, twice (Once in the Marines), and a couple things of a private nature.
I have always found it amusing / troubling that we expect God to heal things that modern medicine can cure or mitigate, but not missing limbs, retardation, or Down's syndrome, etc.
I have also found fundamentalist atheists as hard headed and difficult to communicate with as fundamentalist believers. They both have closed their minds to any other possibilities than what they *want* to believe in.
Tom said: "I have no reason to doubt that your prayers have been answered. However, if you have joined the scoffers in being critical of HWA, your prayers have not been answered."
Tom, Not only am I critical of HWA, I find it somewhere between difficult and impossible to have anything that could even be charitably considered a Christian thought about him. He was a man with a God complex that had a negative influence in this world and continues to tarnish souls even after his death.
"If someone asserts that something doesn't exist, they should be able to prove that their assertion is true, otherwise the assertion is meaningless."
I can't argue with that kind of logic. You are absolutely right. Therefore, my assertion that flying purple unicorns do not exist is meaningless. They must exist, because I cannot prove that they do not exist. Oh, why do I kick against the goads?
Paul
"No Paul, it did not. In fact I cannot think of one instance where this has ever happened."
Why is that? Doesn't that seem odd to you?
"It did include a healing, saving my life, twice (Once in the Marines), and a couple things of a private nature."
And I would bet that every one of these instances were not 100% inexplicable; that is, the situations were improbable, but not impossible without divine intervention. It's comparing the regression of cancer due to prayer to the regeneration of a missing limb due to prayer. One can happen without divine intervention, but the latter cannot. Why do see and hear about the former but never the later? Don't you think it strange? A grenade may land next to you but not go off. Improbable? Yes. Impossible without divine intervention? No, it can happen. But compare that to seeing a bullet suspend itself in midair or a mortar suddenly reversing it's course- these things are impossible without divine intervention. Why is it that we see the former example but not the latter ones? Odd, isn't it?
"I have always found it amusing / troubling that we expect God to heal things that modern medicine can cure or mitigate, but not missing limbs, retardation, or Down's syndrome, etc."
I agree! That's also strange. Why is that? I think it is because we know, deep down, that God really doesn't heal people. At all.
"I have also found fundamentalist atheists as hard headed and difficult to communicate with as fundamentalist believers. They both have closed their minds to any other possibilities than what they *want* to believe in."
I have said it over and over....I do not believe in God due to lack of evidence. My belief/disbelief is based on evidence/lack of evidence. Therefore, if the evidence appears, then I will believe. It's that simple. Now the evidence has to be convincing, but nothing grand.
Paul
Paul said: "And I would bet that every one of these instances were not 100% inexplicable; that is, the situations were improbable, but not impossible without divine intervention. It's comparing the regression of cancer due to prayer to the regeneration of a missing limb due to prayer."
Paul, I have given the matter an incredible amount of thought and reflection over the years. I have already weeded out items that could possibly have had other than divine explanations. I hope that you can take me at my word, but I do not blame you for being skeptical....hell, I always am.
FYI - The healing had nothing to do with some minister laying on the hands, an anointed cloth, or anything like that. It was simply a young boy (me) asking God to heal him. It was complete, instantaneous, and the most incredible thing I have ever experienced in my life. I'll never forget it.
The one I mentioned regarding the Marines had nothing to do with combat, it was enroute to a bivouac area and involved me and two a**holes. The others will remain my business only.
Regarding the healing of Mental retardation, missing limbs, down's syndrome, etc. I do find it strange Paul, I don't like it one single bit. If I ever do get to meet God, he has a lot of answering to do.
Perhaps you can get an answer from our resident expert on all things regarding God, Saint Tom. I'm sure he can explain to us why God doesn't heal missing / blown off limbs, mental retardation, and Down's Syndrome / Autism.
In the Bible, God tended to "heal" maladies that might pass with time, for example a seizure. Sometimes when it speaks of someone being "blind" or "dead" it is more interms of spiritually, though being literalized, that sense is lost.
Lazarus was not dead dead. He was spiritually dead from the group after four days and was as good as dead. Jesus went to bring him back in to the fold. Then he was alive from the dead.
Paul said he "saw" Jesus, but we know he meant in vision. He experienced Jesus but never met him. He even said he "saw" Jesus in the same way the others did. This leads to thinking even the others saw Jesus in their heads or minds and not for real in the flesh as neither did Paul.
Some "saw" Elvis after he died too. Some still see him
Perhaps you can get an answer from our resident expert on all things regarding God, Saint Tom. I'm sure he can explain to us why God doesn't heal missing / blown off limbs, mental retardation, and Down's Syndrome / Autism.
It's because he can't, he doesn't exist. The only "miraculous" healings were those very same ones that can be faked at any old town Pentecostal tent meeting. The lame, the blind, the deaf etc. are very easily faked and I personally know of one that was.
It's always someone no one present at the meeting knows who gets healed. And, no amputees are ever healed, not even in the Bible. That's because it can't be faked.
Is there anything bad about believing in a god? Nope. But, to assert that a god does exist without evidence and to pass that off as true and thereby convincing other people to believe it or face punishment is not only bad, it's heinous.
If a god does not exist, preaching that one does exist is perpetuating a myth and really should be considered a crime against humanity.
Why do people believe in a god? Because that's what they hear from the time they are born - the myth perpetuated and handed down to them from people they trust most, their parents and their parents received it the same way. I believe it is called a "meme" in sophisticated circles. Aah yes, here it is in the dictionary:
American Heritage Dictionary - meme (mēm)
n. A unit of cultural information, such as a cultural practice or idea, that is transmitted verbally or by repeated action from one mind to another.
Life events:
It seems that once one has a life saving experience, God is the only explanation for it. This of course is not so as many 'pagans', 'muslims', 'communists' and those outside of Mr. Pack's circle of protection experience life saving events.
When it happens to a believer it inforces the belief. When it happens to a non believer, it either just happens and there is gratitude for how it worked out, or others feel that "god is trying to tell you something."
In college I ...
Missed a plane that was hit by a fighter jet over Los Angelo.
Almost fell out of small plane (that was not the summer for planes) with the door off dropping parachutes to hunters.
Started to fall off the student center pulling a hose over the railing and "popped back up on my feet."
In the ministry.
Had the car engine die pulling out on the hwy only to have car roll back and a semi-truck go by I did not see.
Had a drunk driver heading right at me to where I saw the pattern in his headlights in the dark, and then he disappeared into night. It felt like the car went thru my car as the only way he missed me and kids.
Survived a very angry person with a deer rifle to my head for baptising her husband.
Lived through at least 35 presentations about the wonderful world tomorrow by Gerald Waterhouse.
Sang "Praise Ye the Lordo" 1265 times without laughing.
I now realize that God did all this so I could have my own therapeutic massage practice in the Bible Belt.
As WCG Blog would tell me "What a Surprising God."
:)dd
One of the best lines ever, from the Wittenberg Door piece:
"Sometimes I think that if theologians were doctors, they would still be using leeches."
Priceless.
to ripley
the leeches are back :)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3858087.stm
Dennis, I wouldn't even call most of those coincidences- but natural occurances. Most of them aren't even highly improbable, much less proof of divine intervention. By your standards, making it to work in the morning without dying is proof of divine intervention. You confirm what I always have suspected. That believers or Christian's "proof" of answered prayer or divine intervention (for all Christians have a list of these) are nothing more than a few questionable coincidences (which are not proof of a supernatural force) and whole lot of normal occurences which every person on the planet experiences.
It seems for alot of people that the criteria for a supernatural occurence is about as low as the criteria of an occurence of the Holy Spirit for a Pentecostal preacher.
I remember one of my "proofs" was car wreck. I agreed with my mother and brother for years that it was indeed, had to be, God. But I held within myself my doubts...I felt that not attributing our escape was somehow not showing God the proper respect. In this sense, a Christian (or a person pre-disposed to believe in the supernatural) will inherently attribute anything out of the norm to the supernatural.
Paul
Paul,
I agree with you on many points as I am skeptical of many claims myself, however I am curious as to which naturally occuring event you would attribute to *instantaneous* removal of high fever, significant swelling, a lingering feeling that I could not and still cannot really describe, and all traces of the cause...after asking God to heal me.
This is not bullshit and is exactly what happened.
It wasn't adrenaline...I know what that feels like.
"I am curious as to which naturally occuring event you would attribute to *instantaneous* removal of high fever, significant swelling, a lingering feeling that I could not and still cannot really describe, and all traces of the cause...after asking God to heal me."
This is exactly what I am talking about. These experiences are never, ever things that could ~only~ be attributed to a supernatural power, such as missing limb spontaneously regenerating. You fever went away and swelling went down instantaneously? That's proof of an supernatural deity?? There are many, many documented cases of people's condition healing due to the mind. Placebo effect, anyone? Certain meditative states have allowed some people to control body temperature and heart rates (things that usually we have no control over). If we have documented cases of such regeneration and control of body functions than we can't simply discount them and say your situation is of God. We have to consider them both; we have evidence already of the former, and zip for the latter. Even besides those points, we aren't even talking about something serious like cancer or a tumor; it's a fever and swelling, for Allah's sake! These things come and go like the wind.
This too, shows me that in the eye of a Christian, ANYTHING is criteria for proof of God. Fever and missed plane rides. A check in the mail and a chance meeting. A ten dollar bill found in a back pocket. The trajectory of a bullet. Wind. Stray thoughts.
Again, why is it we NEVER see an occurance that could ONLY be attributed to a supernatural deity???? When I say ONLY, I don't mean that it is highly improbable, I mean that there is no way, within the confines of reality, to occur without divine intervention. For example, Charlie's fever versus a missing limb spontaneously regenerating. One, though it may be highly probable, can happen within the realm of reality. The other cannot and can ONLY be attributed to a deity. Why do we have no records of the latter?
Answer #1: God is purposely witholding an act that would show the world that he exists (Even though he want's the whole world to accept his existence).
Answer #2: God hate amputees.
Answer #3: God is powerless, only able to perform small feats.
Answer #4 God doesn't exist.
http://www.whydoesgodhateamputees.com/god5.htm
Paul said: "This is exactly what I am talking about. These experiences are never, ever things that could ~only~ be attributed to a supernatural power, such as missing limb spontaneously regenerating. You fever went away and swelling went down instantaneously? That's proof of an supernatural deity?? There are many, many documented cases of people's condition healing due to the mind."
Paul, So what you are saying is that in effect, when I prayed, I convinced myself somewhere in my subconscious that I was really God, and that I healed myself and dispatched the necessary miracle within my own body, instantaneously healing myself upon the conclusion of my prayer, thereby reinforcing my conscious mind's fallacy of believing in a God.
Thank you ever so much for clearing that up for me...(a little sarcasm intended)
I think I also mentioned that the marks of what caused the situation to begin with were also gone...That would be at odds with the speed at which skin regenerates from a trauma.
As part of the Big Bang theory which I do not know if you subscribe to, all of the matter in the universe was once condensed into a sphere of an indeterminite but small size, for the sake of argument, let's say that is true, what naturally occuring event do you attribute to this anomaly? The existence of the sphere to begin with?
If you don't believe in the big bang theory then you can ignore the question. I wouldn't ask you to justify something you don't think holds water.
The amputee, retard, down's syndrome, thalidomide children thing does stick out there like a gigantic sore thumb. I agree with you 100% on that.
"Lazarus was not dead dead. He was spiritually dead from the group after four days and was as good as dead. Jesus went to bring him back in to the fold. Then he was alive from the dead. "
Hmmm, so, spritutally dead people stink after 4 days?
Charlie,
No, I was not suggesting that you healed yourself in that instance. But my point is that it can happen, and there are documented cases of such things happening, and they aren't due to the supernatural; so, I simply can't lay that aside and say that, oh, it must be God....especially since we have no other evidence for God either. Non-Supernatural explanation? Documented proof. God? No proof. 1 to 0. See my point. If there were other evidence for God, let us say, a prophet that went around reviving the week old dead (all scientifically validated), then I could lean to your explanation because I would have strong evidence that there are supernatural occurences and therefore your situation may be one of them. But we have no proof for God. At all. Therefore I go with another explanation for which we have evidence for.
"If you don't believe in the big bang theory then you can ignore the question."
I have yet to study it, so no I don't have an opinion on it. Besides. I hate physics, so I will approach studying this subject with the same desire that I have to hand-sand my wooden deck.
Paul
The "big bang" theory was confirmed by the Hubble project with what is called the "red shift" and the confirmation that the universe is in constant change and expanding.
What was before the big bang or what caused the big bang is still unknown and may never be known.
"What was before the big bang or what caused the big bang is still unknown and may never be known."
Hah! Therefore, Zeus must exist! You non-believing fool! If you can't explain the origin of the universe, then the ONLY answer must be an invisible supernatural diety! It's so very clear!
Paul
BTW, GO RON PAUL!!!
Corky,
Hate to burst your bubble, but the Big Bang originated as a religious concept by a catholic monk and remains origin theory for most judeo / christian sects today.
Edwin Hubble found proof for it and the hubble telescope appears to find more proof for it all the time.
I don't think the big bang theory is at odds with a belief in God at all.
Charlie says,
I don't think the big bang theory is at odds with a belief in God at all.
Neither do I, but it's not a proof of one either. And, it is at odds with Genesis and therefore, biblegod.
I don't believe it was a religious concept by a Catholic monk either, at least in the way you want it to sound.
It's like when Galileo's observations turned out to be true and the Church claimed that they knew it all along.
The same with a spherical earth, germs, atoms etc etc etc. One of these days it will have been the Church that knew about evolution and abiogenesis all the whole time. They just didn't tell anyone because it might confuse them or cause them to lose faith.
Corky, I'm not sure of the author but you can try googling the Monk's name below:
"Religious circles embraced the idea of an expanding universe because for the universe to be expanding, then at some point in the past it had to originate from a single point, called the "Big Bang". Indeed, the concept of the Big Bang did not originate with Edwin Hubble but was proposed by a Catholic Monk, Georges Lemaître in 1927, two years before Hubble published his observations of the Red Shift. The "Big Bang" coincided nicely with religious doctrine and just as had been the case with epicycles (and despite the embarrassment thereof) religious institutions sought to encourage this new model of the universe over all others, including the then prevalent "steady state" theory."
The article is from "What Really Happened; The History that the Government Hopes You DON'T Learn."
The website also features articles on topics from how 911 was an inside job to how Osama Bin Laden is dead.
Nice.
Paul
Ron Paul 2008
Paul says,
The article is from "What Really Happened; The History that the Government Hopes You DON'T Learn."
Heh heh, figures. It might as well have been in the "National Inquirer".
Seems to me like all Christians were laughing at the idea of the big bang and an expanding universe until just recently rather than "embraced the idea of an expanding universe" prior to 1927.
I don't think my memory is that faulty. I really was born at night but it wasn't last night.
the fact that the article is from a website run by lunatics doesn't change the monk's name or what he theorized.
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