Big news brethren: "the 1335 days before the actual day Jesus Christ returns began on February 2, 2008."Woo hoo!
These are the words of Ronnie Weinland, God's little helper. Ronnie stands at the head of a church that now boasts two "presiding evangelists", Wayne Matthews in Australia/New Zealand and Johnny Harrell in the US and Canada. My guess is that they've both sent in some generous checks to fund the final push.
And so The End, dear brethren, is indeed at hand. But not perhaps in the way Ronnie thinks. After 1335 days of fear mongering and spiritual manipulation of sincere, naive, credulous victims, Ronnie's fantasies are bound to come tumbling down on his own head. I suspect he's already arranged for a hard hat.
But spare a thought for the folk he's suckering in. Take this guy for example:
He [Weinland] has written two very good books... I have read both numerous times and find them an excellent fountain of truth about religion and the lies that have been spread/done in Gods name. I had no interest in religion of any sort up until this point but once reading his books; it was like the truth was undeniable and plain to see for those with ears to listen and eyes to see.
[T]he worst was telling my girlfriend; she was on holiday at the time so I had two weeks to read the books and formulate what I would tell her. The day she came back I sat her down and explained to her what I had found out and the great truths that had been revealed to me; I expected her to flip and call me crazy and dump [m]e for being a nutter; she was amazing and completely understood and stood by me. Again I was in shock but one thing; she does not observe the Sabbath which is a pain...
One thing we have agreed upon is that when events build in magnitude to a degree that cannot be denied she will then start observing the Sabbath with me.
Everything that Ronald states in his books are coming to pass more and more as he predicts i.e. the seven thunders and the previous 5 seals being opened.
To me the world/universe around me has always been proof of higher intelligence; up until about 8 years ago I bought evolution like most peeps but then my friend asked me some questions and pointed out some obvious flaws and that’s when my journey for the truth began.
Until Ronald I believed that perhaps E.T's were responsible for life on earth but now I know better.
(Source)Back to "Ronald":
All that we are experiencing right now is a very small taste, just an ice cube on the tip of an iceberg of what is coming, as God begins to call thousands upon tens of thousands of people over the next year. From there it goes into the millions—all in preparation for the return of Jesus Christ and the establishment of God’s Government over all the earth in the fall of 2011.
Will Weinland's ice cube turn into a Titanic sized iceberg, or just melt into a puddle on a page of obscure footnotes about apocalyptic delusions?
And is Ronnie himself a couple of ice cubes short of a scotch on the rocks?
With only 1335 sleeps to go, time - as they say - will most definitely tell!
138 comments:
Well, if the 1335 started Feb 2, then that means that the 1290 will start March 18th, and that the 1260will start April 17th, which is the day before Passover (by most in the COG observance).
Weinland predicted that several COG leaders would die in February. The clock is ticking. Frankly, if I was RCM or Flurry, Rittenbaugh et al. I would amp up the security a bit. With the distribution of his nut case material out there, you never know when some zealot will "take it into their own hands" to make "Prophecy come True".
Remember the Michael Rohan case?...the guy, who with Plain Truth in hand, tried to burn down the Al-Aqsa Mosque,Dome of Rock, so that Jesus could return, back in the 1960s?
I once had someone in the know, tell me this in all sincerity, he said "You'd better keep old man Armstrong away from "THE BUTTON",(the nuclear launch switch) because he will push the darned thing just to see his stupid prophecies come true!"
Lets hope and pray that Weinland's nuttiness and delusion will not end up with people acting our or harming people permanently or having suicides, murders, financial disaster or any other dysfunction or consequence other than Weinland's own disillusionment.
Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA
For those interested, Ron Weinland now appears in Church Corporate
Definitions.
Matthew 24:11 - And many false profits (opps, a slip - I mean prophets) shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Matthew 24:36 - But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Matthew 24:42 - Watch, therefore; for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
What part of these simple statements recorded in the New Testament do Ronnie Wienland and his followers not understand?
And many false profits (opps, a slip - I mean prophets)
Did not! Did not!
What part of these simple statements recorded in the New Testament do Ronnie Wienland and his followers not understand?
All of them.
But you knew that, right?
The underpinning of Weinland's view on prophecy is British-Israelism. Establshing that BI is an absurd notion is pretty easy. Someone can sit in their easy chair, reflect a while and understand that it is a fable. It does not require one to resort to dusty and arcane volumes in a special library.
If BI is false, then there are no explicit references in the Bible to the US and BC. (There is one possible reference to a army that is probably of US origin that is destroyed by Christ when he returns, according to a Jewish Rabbi that I correspond with.) The US and BC are just another forgettable Gentile empire in the context of a Book that is focused on Israel.
The Tribulation is the time of Jacob's Trouble. Not the time of trouble for the Gentiles. Although the entire world will be affected, all those prophecies relate principally to Israel.
This means that the idea that the US will be attacked in April is absurd. If this happens, Weinland will not have gotten it from the Bible and it will be an event of no real prophetic significance.
My guess is that this is something that he arrived at through a misapplication of prophecy, so the probability that April will be doomsday for the US is extremely small.
-- Neo
Does anyone remember how 1975 was figured out to be the year of the return of Jesus?
How soon people forget.
There is a thing about the numbers that won't work, for example we have Israel with an army of over a million soldiers - that never happened. The numbers in the OT are screwed up with no way to tell what they really were.
How long is "seven times"? Make a guess, because that's all you can do, even the Jews don't know.
However, Jesus said that it was all to be fulfilled in the generation in which he was living.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
That was nearly 2,000 years ago. Either they were fulfilled or they were not.
Going in, Ronnie must at least vaguely aware that the track record of those predicting the return of jesus is not good...2000 years of continuous Strike-Outs ! LOL !
Now hold on here. How could the 1335 days possibly start on Ground Hog Day?
Isn't that a pagan celebration -- the sort of thing God detests, and would never dare touch in any way?
'Does anyone remember how 1975 was figured out to be the year of the return of Jesus?
How soon people forget.'
I was there. At the time there were press reports of all the wonderful technological advances there would be by 1975. That's where the booklet title came from.
Wasn't 1975 determined by figuring 19-year time cycles in the years of HWA's ministry?
January 1934: First radio broadcast.
January 1953: First broadcast to all of Europe, on Radio Luxembourg.
January 1972: The church flees, and the 3 1/2-year tribulation begins -- leading to Jesus's glorious return in 1975!
January 1991: OK, the return hasn't happened -- but PCG tries to make something of that month's allied invasion of Kuwait.
January 2010: PCG's Gerald Flurry has written something big just might happen then. Just as he wrote around 1989: "We just might say" there will be no 1996 Olympic games in Atlanta.
GROUND HOGS DAY...AKA "THE START OF THE 1335 DAYS"
Is Ground Hogs day Pagan too??
From Wikipedia...Perhaps the earliest known American reference to Groundhog Day can be found at the Historical Society of Berks County in Reading, Pennsylvania. The reference was made Feb. 4, 1841 in Morgantown, Berks County, Pennsylvania storekeeper James Morris' diary: "Last Tuesday, the 2nd, was Candlemas day, the day on which, according to the Germans, the Groundhog peeps out of his winter quarters and if he sees his shadow he pops back for another six weeks nap, but if the day be cloudy he remains out, as the weather is to be moderate
However, some curious German spring rites ritual is connected to it going back over 1000 years...In western countries in the Northern Hemisphere the official first day of Spring is about six weeks after Groundhog Day, on March 20 or 21. About 1,000 years ago, before the adoption of the Gregorian calendar when the date of the equinox drifted in the Julian calendar, the spring equinox fell on March 16 instead. This was exactly six weeks after February 2. Assuming that the equinox marked the first day of spring in certain medieval cultures, as it does now in western countries, Groundhog Day occurred exactly six weeks before spring. Therefore, if the groundhog saw his shadow on Groundhog Day there would be six more weeks of winter. If he didn't, there would be 42 more days of winter[citation needed]. In other words, the Groundhog Day tradition may have begun as a bit of folk humor
Seems safe enough! I hereby declare that after taking a sip of it, and smelling the air, that Groundhogs Day is Kosher. So go ahead and enjoy! A bit of Pennsylvania polka music to enjoy the rest of your day by...(copy and paste into your browser)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ips5DxSqzHE&feature=related
Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA
Someone told me that they listened to his sermon Feb. 2. He is now ordaining a bunch of elders because he no longer has time to answer emails, council with the brethren because of all that he will have to do. I have also heard that he has money in swiss accounts. He just bought a brand new VW from Germany. Makes you wonder if he will not , "flee" alone, if these things do not come to pass.
They keep it in the family. His daughter keeps the books. I believe his son is also on the payroll.
Very sad and potentially dangerour situation for the brethren.
Armstrongism will not give birth to any valid prophet! It was a total scam (perhaps with a very few elements of truth) from the very beginning.
God does not work through human guesswork. Biblical examples indicate that He revealed to the people whom He chose exactly what He intended to do, and when.
Ever hear the one about the church that cried wolf? Weinland apparently aspires to become the latest "William Miller".
BB
Prophecy nostalgia:
In about 1969, in the Wichita, Kansas church, I heard a sermon that showed how many scriptures fit together to make 1975 the date of Christ's return.
I was in Big Sandy as 1972 approached. I was there under a special work program. I recall talking to other guys in this same program and discussing how we would never have to finish the program because we were all going to head to the place of safety in January of 1972. Nothing happened. Later HWA retooled 1972 to be the time of the founding of the Auditorium in Pasadena.
Sometime after the big non-event of 1975, a leading minister, I think maybe it was Dean Blackwell, told the Wichita congregation that the reason why Christ did not return in 1975 was not because HWA was wrong but because the church was not ready, the bride had not prepared herself. This was a good point of departure for demanding greater obedience and greater financial committment to the WCG.
At the Feast in Biloxi in 1979, Herman Hoeh stated that the Times of the Gentiles was scheduled to end in 1982. I think by that time nobody paid much attention anymore. I certainly didn't.
I think that Christian ministers should study the WCGs manipulative use of prophecy to avoid similar pitfalls. Christ said, in essence, "I'll be there when I am there and you won't be able to figure out when". Yet even the erstwhile Billy Graham believes we are at the End of Days, even after the sad and published history of the Armstrongite WCG.
-- Neo
Doesn't anyone remember all the preaching about the "7 times" of Daniel? 7 x 360 = 2520 years for the "times of the gentiles".
A time, times and a dividing of time twice (there was one angel on one side of the river and another angel on the other side and they pointed to an angel in the middle of the river) = 1260 + 1260 = 2520.
1260 + 1260 + 75 (1260 + 75 is 1335) brings us to what year?
Figure from the carrying away into Babylon to 2520 years later and you come out with a myriad of answers.
The Millerites started with 1843 then it was 1844, then 1868, then 1914, then 1975, then 2012 and a host of dates in between.
587 BC + 2520 = 1934 AD
Add 2 19 year time cycles and you come to 1972 so from this we get "1975 in Prophecy"
Actually, we should add the 75 years (difference between 1260 and 1335) and come to the year of Christ's return.
587BC + 2520 + 75 = 2009AD!
Two points. Points are for those who actually believe the Bible is true, which I think does not include many/most that post here.
First, the scripture about no one knows the time...
This was said almost 2000 years ago. Surely something said 2000 years ago by Christ does not mean it is true today, considering the point he made. If the "end" is near, God has certainly revealed the timing to the one that will be coming back. To spring it on him on the day he is coming back, I think we can all agree, is rather stupid.
A few thoughts on what Byker Bob said:
"God does not work through human guesswork. Biblical examples indicate that He revealed to the people whom He chose exactly what He intended to do, and when."
This, of course, if true, supports the point I made above, although I don't think that is the point Bob was making. The scripture (paraphrasing) about God will do nothing unless he reveals it to his servants, the prophets speaks more directly to what God does when major, significant events are about to happen.
The point I believe Bob was making is God makes it clear to the people "whom He chose exactly what He intended to do, and when."
Obviously, this is not true, yet, if Weinland is the guy.
At some point, and that is the crucial point, God does reveal to people whom he is working with. The when this is revealed and the who this is revealed to are questions not easily answered.
Even in the middle of the Tribulation the deception will be so clever that "if it were possible even the elect would be deceived." At the end of the Tribulation much of the world will not know "the good guys from the bad guys."
I sometimes wonder, again speaking to people that believe the Bible true, why one can believe in some of the "nutty things" the Bible speaks about and yet when it comes to our day and time the "nutty things" Weinland mentions are considered just that, nutty.
Just to be clear, I make the above point as one that does believe the "nutty things" the Bible brings up. Hopefully, you non-believers will be really humorous in your ridicule of this point.
Jim
It may well be that the 6 days = 6000 years simply states that God has set a time limit on human activity, and the 6000 years and the 1000 years symbolize this. It may say nothing about the actual length of either period. Be you also ready for....
Ron Weinland has now been added to the Apocalypse page as well as the 1975 in Prophecy video from the Church of God Industries.
You might want to go back and review all of the prophecy which never happened, predicted by false prophets, some of which seem to be held in great esteem by members of the Churches of God.
One would think that the statement by Jesus in Matthew 7:15 to beware of false prophets would have been sufficient for professing Christians.
Has anyone really figured out the deal yet?
Concerning Uncle Ron from the Definitions page:
A false Prophet who really puts his money where is mouth is when it comes to the Great Tribulation. Or maybe he puts other people's money where his mouth is. Anyway, the beginning of the fall of the United States is coming up this year in 2008. And who's to say he's wrong, particularly if you watch the 2008 campaign for the presidency. You might say the whole thing is campaignful.
The Day After...
"Did Jesus Come Back?"
"Don't see him."
"Your kidding right?"
"No, Don't see him."
"Did he call?"
"Nope"
"Didn't ask for me?"
"No, not really. Didn't show up."
"Oh"
"Do you realize what this means?"
"I think so..."
"God, in his mercy has given us more time to do the work."
"An even Greater Work!"
"Yes, and even Greater Work"
"Let's tell the brethren."
"Well..you tell them.."
"I'm not gonna tell them. You tell them."
"I'm not tellin them nothing...Hey Mikey...you tell em!"
Pause...
"Hey Mikey, what did they say?"
"They didn't say anything. They just asked if we were having church next week and who should bring the watermelon?"
Another nut case. Has anyone checked to see if this guy is serious or just on the wrong medication. In my opinion, he is a couple of french frys short of a happy meal.
I predict the world will end on December 21st 2012. That is the confermed my the Myan Calendar. The Myan calendar ends on 2012 or very nearly thereabout. The Myans were the most accurate time-keepers in the known world as far as calendars are concerned.
Did Ronnie indicate how he arive at Feb 2 as being the start of the 1335? By what method was this date arrived at? Does his Eminence the Magnifance known as the Apostle from Ohio know that Ronnie has beat him to the punch? There are so many questions. Has Bill Clinton been consulted? Is Hillery aware of the date? Is Ronald MacDonald in on it? I donknow. Its so unsettleing.
Here we get into the old conundrum: Is he pulling a fast one or is he a nut case?
It doesn't matter: He's as wrong either way.
And after all that is said and done, I'd bet, if I were a betting man that Uncle Ronnie is laughing at us.
When asked on the radio show if God spoke directly to him by voice, Ronnie said no. 'Its just in his mind'. That my friends is the point. Poor Ronnie is Out of his mind.
"There are so many crack pots out there. Its a crazy world out there." Quotes by Ron Weinland 17:48 into the program!
Poor Ronnie. Forgot the Thorazine again.
Go sell your house,send Ron cash
And for the hills make a dash.
Gerry's time's a little late,
Ron is much more up to date.
April is the crucial date,
For Easter eggs one shouldn't wait.
So eat them early,then repent,
Lest Ron refuses his consent.
Spanky's,too,been caught right out,
But still for money does he shout.
Give to Ron with all your might,
For cometh soon the darkest night.
The race is on to be the first,
This must be the final burst,
The famed "gun-lap" of Herbal fame,
The witless pair with zealot flame.
Don your loincloth,spread the ash,
And give away your ready cash.
You won't be needing it at all,
A manna diet if you recall.
Petra's caverns might suffice,
A draughty refuge not so nice.
Shovel those tourist tokens aside,
Be careful where your feet abide.
1326 days to go.
Seamus
Weinland will, of course, have egg all over his face. But his followers will not abandon him. They will instead make excuses for him. It is not that the brain-washed are forgiving. It is that they believe fervently in themselves.
What will save Weinland is the same thing that has saved the UCG and other such organizations. The people who form their congregations are people who could never admit that they were wrong. So, following this model, Weinlands congregations have a vested interest in making sure that Weinland's flaws be carefully masked over. This way his followers never have to face the harsh truth that not only was Weinland wrong but they were also wrong.
Those of us who contribute to this blog have had to face that truth and process it. But there are people who will never face that. The most painful thing for self-righteous, judgemental people to do is to find fault with themselves. Weinland, like HWA, will ride the crest of that wave of self-adoration.
-- Neo
Great point. Now put it up to a mirror.
Perhaps after 1334 days we can call him Mr. Whineland.
It doesn't take a genius to predict that the 2008 will be a "prophetic year" If the Decider, King George, Commander Guy, manufactures a reason not to leave office...even Jebus won't want to come back for either Ephraim or Manasseh. Or is it Amos and Andy? I forget.
"Self-righteous and Judgementa said...
Great point. Now put it up to a mirror."
Tom? Is that you?
I predict evil men will wax worse and worse.
And they will probably make money at it.
I predict that the next President of the United States may be either a man or a woman.
Furthermore, I predict that the next President of the United States could be either white or black.
All you people out there who do not believe in me can judge for yourself and you will see. My prophecies come to pass... unless they already have, since I have a penchant for predicting the past... mostly accurately.
Follow me! I may lead you into a kingdom! Or not.
For sure, send me money, for I have supernatural powers at work on my behalf. They could be either good or evil.
Hey, I just figured out a cool way to make some moolah myself off of all this foolishness! Tribulation Greeting Cards!
Rompin' Ron seems to believe there are going to be millions of newly baptized members in his micro-splinter. Wouldn't it be nice if they had a specialized line of greeting cards to exchange on various occasions?
BB
Ronnie doesn't know it, but he is crying out for help. Poor delusional soul. You would think that a prophet of God would have direct access to Him. Not our boy Ronnie. He just gets messages in his mind.
If you listen to the radio show that was mentioned, at the beginning of the show it says that it is a "Paid Program! Paid by the Prophet himself!
Medication. Medication. Medication.
Ron Weinland will be as a man who is caught with his dick in hand when this "prophecy" fails! So be it. But there will never be a shortage of fools who will follow him into his world of lunacy!
The question is, how many cog nut cases will follow this moronically impaired idiot, and spend their hard earned money in an attempt to pay off God in order to save their own worthless souls?
Hey, I just figured out a cool way to make some moolah myself off of all this foolishness! Tribulation Greeting Cards!
Byker Bob, you can be sure that The Journal will take your ads. They take everybody else's.
Tribulation Greeting Card
We thought we'd send you this little note;
From an undisclosed location quite remote;
While it's not quite a vacation;
We've avoided the Great Tribulation;
It's just too bad that you missed the Boat!
The thing that really, truly, worries me, is the date lussenheide mentions: If CoG-PKG members will be keeping Passover, it's likely they will all be gathered together in one place, the day after Rotten Ronnie's predictions fall through.
Am I the only one disturbed by this??
I hope I'm wrong. I really really hope I'm wrong. But Rotten Ronnie is sincerely crazy. He really really is.
Anonymous says: "Very sad and potentially dangerous situation for the brethren."
I agree. I agree entirely. But what can we do?
At least people are finding Weinland Watch through search engine results....but it's nowhere near a top page ranking.....
What if it isn't enough?
I also add that, while I find the witty remarks hilarious (BB's idea of Trib. greeting cards is outstanding), I just can't find it in myself to crack wise.
I hope I'm wrong.
I really hope I'm wrong. but "Johnny Harrell", the new evangelist for US and Canada, could possibly be the guy in charge of the Christian Patriots Defense League.
Did someone say BI was dead???
Has this fellow ever explained by what process he came to realize that God has made him a prophet? Has anyone else explained why they believe him?
Yeah it's in his book 2008 in prophecy...or whatever it's called. Apparently the seven thunders mentioned in the book of Revelations (the ones that were never to be revealed) have been revealed to him alone.
You ask me, the seven thunders was a lot of hand-waving deus ex machina for John. Or Paul. Or whoever really wrote the damned thing in the first place.
Has anyone else explained why they believe him?
The Answers you seek may be found at Answers/
You would think with all the Prophets (Weinland, Flurry, et.al.), and all the Apostles (Pack, Flurry, Spanky?, et. al.), running around, sombody would be on the same page with sombody else. Each of these guys claims to have the inside track; you know, is the right hand man of God himself. But, none thinks any of the others is doing it the right way. Confusion reigns supreme. Laughingstock of the self-rightous. Is it any wonder that so many followers of these morons have no minds of their own. Why think for your self? Follow the insane instead!
Has this fellow ever explained by what process he came to realize that God has made him a prophet? Has anyone else explained why they believe him?
Who needs to explain anything. Insanity needs no Justification.
"At least people are finding Weinland Watch through search engine results....but it's nowhere near a top page ranking.....
What if it isn't enough?"
It is enough. People make choices and those souls who are perhaps already brain dead in being programmed by Flurry, Weinland and Pack aren't going to see "help" as anything but an attack.
Ideas have consequences. Religion proves that every day.
Right on, Dennis. HWA was primarily a marketer. He created or assembled a sizeable market for his product, a British Israel-related apocalyptic religion. That market has consistently refused to go away, despite HWA's death, and the attempted "reformation" of his church, thus killing off the original "brand".
These days, sometimes, when original product disappears, an entrepreneur researches the implications of the patent laws, and takes manufacturing offshore. What we're seeing amongst the ACOGs is a pathetic batch of ersatz product, the moral equivalent of antiquated stuff coming back to us from China, India, Kuala Lumpur, Indonesia, or even the old original product, patched up by our own illegal aliens. And, all the new sources are claiming to have the original, or new and improved.
BB
As long as no one gets hurt.
WW was getting a bit unwieldy to keep on one page, so I've split it off from the main PH blog here.
'from WW: The Worldwide Church of God separated people into two very different groups: the “brethren” and “the world”.'
No - three: ministry, brethren, world
You're presupposing "ministry" were "people".
Gavin:
Purplehymnal:
Perhaps one or both of you could add a "Last Daze Countdown Clock" to your websites that would display the remaining days, hours, minutes, seconds in a countdown to the magic moment - with some appropriate fireworks as time expires.
Gavin, I second the Paco's suggestion. A "Last Daze Countdown Clock" would be a great enhancement to your site. How reassuring it would be to all of us. I suspect that Dave Pack will shortly have a version of his own. The only diffrence would be his starts before Weinlands.
All of this has be confused. Are Ronnies followers to flee at the start of the 1335 or the 1290? Did Ronnie give the date that Christ is supposed to return? If Ronnie is one of the 2 Witnesses, is Dave Pack the other? Who has more authority? Is Dave the Apostle also a Prophet? Is Ronnie the Prophet also an Apostle? Its getting so that I cant keep up with all this.
When the clock runs out...
1. I never said Jesus would return then. I said he "could" return.
2. God has given us more time to finish the Work.
3. Satan has blinded your mind. We never said that.
4. We said it, but we didn't mean it the way you took it.
5. Satan confused your mind to make you think we said that, but we didn't. We said something else and now I'm not going to tell you what I really said. You should have listened right the first time.
6. I only meant my books would go into a second printing and return to a bookstore near you.
7. I made a mistake,but so did Moses, David, the Disciples and Paul, and they were all men after God's own heart. So there.
"Millions and Millions".....
I can't help but notice the conflicting rantings of Weinland and Pack.
Notice what Weinland says: "All that we are experiencing right now is a very small taste, just an ice cube on the tip of an iceberg of what is coming, as God begins to call thousands upon tens of thousands of people over the next year. From there it goes into the Millions —all in preparation for the return of Jesus Christ and the establishment of God’s Government over all the earth in the fall of 2011."
Hmm, Ronie is expecting "Millions" to join him. The Packtola also expects "Millions". Now I ask you, how many Nuts do we have here?
And I haven't even mentioned Spanky and the rest of the gang.
Its so exciting.
"We thought we'd send you this little note;
From an undisclosed location quite remote;
While it's not quite a vacation;
We've avoided the Great Tribulation;
It's just too bad that you missed the Boat!"
PC, your "Tribulation card" was so funny!
And thanks BB, too.
after contacting Wein...
he figured he was numbero Ein
when asked to repeat his initial words,
he quoteth"i don't repeat my first-class words to second-hand nurds...
PurpleHymnal,
I admire what you are trying to do and wish you well. As one who has worked with people to do something similar to what you are doing today, I wonder if I could offer you some observations and still retain a measure of credibility:
1) Be aware that you are dealing with a psychopath. The first thing you must realize is that if you are truly a threat -- and I hope you are -- you are taking on a dangerous enemy. You may find your credibility attacked and ruined, if not with people here, then certainly with the group your are targeting to rescue.
It has long been a concern of mine that the people on this forum just don't have an awareness of psychopaths -- who they are and what they represent -- but mostly how morally repugnant they are: They don't care and they also make themselves look like "the good guys". I've personally taken many attacks, even to having websites taken down no fewer than three times until I found an ISP webhost who would stand up to a master manipulator.
2) The people who you are trying to rescue not only don't want to be rescued, but in the end will probably will hate you if you are successful in rescuing them.
In my own case, about 60 people were saved. However, they went off to form a new group with just as nutty ideas, minus the psychopath. The coxcult team was never acknowledged. If you expect any appreciation for saving people's very lives, just forget it: You are doing it because it is the right thing to do, not for any appreciation.
3) You can't rescue everyone. People may die. This is one of the hardest things, particularly if you have one iota of empathy for others, and I sense your heart is in the right place. This will be painful, particularly if the reality matches the hyperbole Damage will be done to a number of people. It will be their own stupid fault, but you'll still feel guilty about it.
4) As much as is possible, be objective and don't let your own emotions run away with you. That's hard to do, particularly if you are invested in caring about people. Do take time to get away from the situation and be clear and centered to focus on what is important for you because you can end up a total wreck if you don't take care of yourself and focus on priorities, including yourself and your friends, rather than giving yourself for people who will never have one shred of appreciation for what you are doing. In fact, they will always resent you and assume that you are wrong. If you are successful, they will blame you for the cult they are in coming apart and they may make life very uncomfortable for you, your family and your friends.
You are dealing with dangerous people who have had the perceptions seriously distorted to the point that they don't act rationally. I was in the unenviable position of not just being called names, but having the cultmeister publicly calling for my death. He told his followers on a public forum to sue me.
My purpose is not to discourage you. It is for you to be vigilant and take care of yourself.
For myself, after this experience, I would not do it again: It is too resource intensive and exhausting. You are wrestling with the Devil. That may or may not be literal, but it has its own reality. It is resource intensive.
And in the end, expect no accolades or Kudos. It's not like people really want to be rescued: They want everybody to mind their own business because they are just fine.
coxcult project coordinator said...
Firstly, ever since Gavin allowed either Dave Havir or Dixon Cartwright, or both, to pressure him into censoring my comments on the disintegration of their divided group, I felt it was necessary for me to withdraw from participating in the forum. But after reading CPC comments, I had to tear myself away from all my preoccupations in order to reply to him, or is it her? For since he or she has adopting the cowardly policy of not revealing his or her true identity, I don't know or care who is behind the acronym, CPC.
However, CPC claims to have special knowledge on how to rescue people from religious groups that he considers to be cults. But it doesn't stop there, CPC claims to possess the sagacity and penetrating insight that have eluded some of the greatest minds in intellectual history; CPC is also able to analyse and label such people as psychopaths, who are demon possessed.
But if you thought that CPC had reached the zenith of his analytical powers, think again! For CPC goes on to say, "You are dealing with dangerous people who have had the(their)perceptions seriously distorted to the point that they don't act rationally." Wow! In the presence of such sagacity and insight, I suppose that everyone would appear to be mentally deficient.
But I wonder how many of these "dangerous" and "distorted" people have walked into a Shopping Mall or some other public place and randomly shot a number of innocent people? Or have burned their children in the fire to placate the god of their respective cults? Perhaps CPC would let us know, but I am not holding my breath. Or are they only "dangerous" and "distorted" because they disagree with CPC?
CPC then goes on to nominate himself as a candidate for martyrdom thus: "I was in the unenviable position of not just being called names, but having the cultmeister publicly calling for my death. He told his followers on a public forum to sue me."
I see, advocating that someone be sued equates with calling for him/her to be killed. But then, who needs the insanity defence, CPC or the people he claims to have rescued or are in need of rescuing?
Finally, CPC reminds me of the Apostle Peter's inspired observation: "While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption."
I wonder who is able to rescue CPC from his bloated opinions of himself? And that is a rhetorical question!
"coxcult project coordinator said... "
That was all very well said and insightful. Born out of experience I am sure.
Most people don't wish to be rescued for if they did, they would wake up and rescue themselves by taking some kind of action or seeing their circumstances better than they do.
I had a "fundamentalist" try to rescue me back into a church yesterday and it's guys like him that would make anyone want to avoid them.
First they act concerened and then when you don't join their dance, they get mad and condemnational.
I am non-condemnational myself :)
Read all about it.
http://ezinearticles.com/?Why-Fundamentalists-Make-Me-Want-to-Stay-Home-From-Church-and-Save-an-Additional-Ten-Percent&id=977720
CPC,
Yeah, people can get pretty "nutty"(a colloquialism, here, that might include "psychopathic"), when they are criticized.
Did you see the video of Tiny T om Kruz lately about his fervency about his "religion", sc ien . tol ogy?
Heck, some people won't even type the name of Tin y To m's religion for fear of their tendency to sue, harass, and murder critics.
"Firstly, ever since Gavin allowed either Dave Havir or Dixon Cartwright, or both, to pressure him into censoring my comments on the disintegration of their divided group, I felt it was necessary for me to withdraw from participating in the forum."..Tom Mahon.
Your not shure who demanded what. You make unfounded accusations and you say you felt it necessary to withdrawing from this forum.
Why pester us. GET OUT!
Here in New Zealand we are having a drier summer than usual in a number of regions.So much so that the NZ Government held a drought conference yesterday,12th Feb.
NIWA,our official scientific weather agency is not predicting any significant rain until this coming May.
Ken Ring, a Kiwi long-range weather forecaster was not invited to this drought conference.Jim Anderton,our Minister of Agriculture said that he was not having a "soothsayer" along to this conference.Ken Ring, has in fact predicted a wet March.
Ron Weinland,another soothsayer has predicted very interesting times from April onwards.
It could be Noah's Flood in March in NZ and fire and brimstone from Ron in April.
As for me I will have a bet all ways.
Seamus
The coxcult project included a number of people from all over the world, some of whom post here on this forum and I was merely the coordinator.
My posting was for PurpleHymnal. It would be nice if PurpleHymnal could learn from other people without suffering through the experience.
The target of the coxcult project shot at his own troops in the military and his psychological records from court records clearly states that he is a psychopath.
The target of the project was told by the Australian Government that his actions were "ill conceived". All of this has been well documented but because the project has ended -- and so has the cult in question -- we've stopped investing in the project any longer.
Welcome back Tom.
"ever since Gavin allowed either Dave Havir or Dixon Cartwright, or both, to pressure him into censoring my comments on the disintegration of their divided group..."
You're making this up. To make it absolutely clear - Dave Havir has never contacted me as far as I know, nor I him, and Dixon - who I have exchanged an email or two with over the years - has never complained or asked me to censor anything.
I look forward to your retraction.
Tom Mahon is hereby cordially invited to join the CCg. Before he does, he needs to accept a number of doctrines, or he will not be allowed to remain:
1) Jesus -- The Word -- was created by God the Father and was originally an archangel -- probably Michael. Jesus / The Word created all things in the physical universe, but did not create other angels or anything in the Spiritual realm;
2) And you cannot even enter into the Kingdom of God if you do not believe this: Satan will repent after he is made a human being in the Great White Throne Judgment and will be accepted into the Kingdom of God. If you do not believe this, at least according the psychopathic cult leader of this particular church of God, you can never -- and he means never -- enter into the Kingdom of God;
3) Tom will have to learn how the calendar is calculated and will have to stop keeping postponements;
4) He will have to keep the entire Passover Season and the Days of Unleavened Bread out of town at a place the one man show leader -- or God -- chooses it to be kept. The good news is that you can use your second tithe [except you have to give all your second tithe so the fatherless, widow and stranger can keep the feast in the third and maybe the sixth year of the seven year cycle -- the reality? The leader used it to build his home];
5) You will keep the Feast of Tabernacles on Second Tithe except as noted above, but you have to save up for the seventh year, since you don't pay any tithes that year;
6) Tom will have to learn to keep the Sabbath from the End of Nautical Twilight Friday Night to the End of Nautical Twilight Saturday Night;
7) There will be absolutely no eating out on the Sabbath in restaurants;
8) Tom will have to keep all the rules and regulations of the church administration led entirely by one man for three whole years before becoming a member. It should be noted that rebaptism is probably warranted;
9) Members are expected to be registered voters and participate in the political process as a civic duty;
10) In the seventh year, you can't farm or have a garden. Period. And by the way, the cult leader has the Jubilee all nailed down and knows exactly when Christ will return -- to put the cult leader in charge of everyone.
These are just a few adjustments that Tom will have to make, as well as sending money out of his country directly to the Credit Card account of the particular cult leader.
Moreover, it is highly recommended that no one consumes any soy products as well as other dietary restrictions. The good news is that red meat and wine come highly recommended.
I believe we have a fit here: An ultra-conservative retentive restrictive church which has everything explained [by the manipulating leader].
Now beyond this, it really is appropriate to consider all this in light of Weinland's particular cult orientation. Except for some nit picky details, you really can't tell the difference if it weren't for the name on the door. The abuse is the same. The manipulation is the same. The only thing different is the voice, look and digs. In fact, it is very much like George Orwell's Animal Farm.
I note with passing interest that psychopaths are the ones most vocal and abusively manipulative when their methods are threatened with exposure.
Gavin,
As a prior moderator of the old Missing Dimension forum at your direction, I am most impressed with your kindness and patience. If it were me, he'd be gone by now. I very much appreciate everything you've done for all of us: You've certainly helped clear up a lot of things for me personally.
I also look forward for a retraction to you for his lies and exaggerations spoken from a fact free environment... just about the time hell freezes over.
I've gotten out my PCL and I'm checking it twice. Things don't look so hot for some people: At least 23 of the 24 items are checked so far and I'm not done with the list yet.
"From there it goes into the Millions —all in preparation for the return of Jesus Christ and the establishment of God’s Government over all the earth in the fall of 2011."
Ronald Weinland
It's definately going to be a race to finish. Will it be the Gregorian Calendar of 2011 where Christians go unconscious under Weinland or the end of Mayan Calendar at the solstice of 2012 where maybe we wake up and get free of all the pious convictions born of marginal information through the centuries.
Or...Dec 22nd, 2012 will also just be another day before Virgo conceives and once against brings forth the the SUN at Xmas.
Stay tuned!
I have already explained to everyone.
587BC + 2520 + 75 = 2009AD!
What more do you need or want?
"the end of all things is at hand"
587 BC, the destruction of the first temple, + the seven times of the gentiles (2520 years) + 75 (the difference between 1/2 the 2520 [1260] years and the goal of 1335 years).
It's here brethren and cisterns, the end that is, and don't let anyone tell you anything different. It's 2009 and you can't stretch it out any further than that.
We are in the final gun-lap, no doubt about it!
You see there are these two trees . . . but you just don't get it . . . do you brethren?
Hi everyone - Just a momentary diversion from the topic matter to post a little boast from a proud father and husband:
My beautiful wife, Cheryl, was delivered this morning (2/12 9:46AM GMT +5) of a stunningly beautiful little baby girl. 6lbs 6 oz. 19.5" long. We named her Grace Clara Kieran, our fourth (and last) child. Mother and child are doing well and the birth was a greaser.
I have had the privilige to get to know *some* of you (more or less) over the past few years on these blogs and thought I would share. Although, now that Tom is back I am sure he will have something off-putting and insulting to say about it, but that is how it goes.
Back to the subject: These *last* days are now made a wee bit better thanks to the contribution to the population by my wife.
I will now have a celebratory glass (or two) of Laguvulin and call it a night.
Gavin said:
>>>To make it absolutely clear - Dave Havir has never contacted me as far as I know, nor I him, and Dixon - who I have exchanged an email or two with over the years - has never complained or asked me to censor anything.
I look forward to you retraction.<<<
If I am mistaken in believing that you were leant on by Dave or Dixon, please accept my apologies. But then your decision to blow the whistle is even more puzzling.
Charlie said:
>>>Although, now that Tom is back I am sure he will have something off-putting and insulting to say about it, but that is how it goes.<<<
As a parent myself, the only "off-putting or "insulting" comment I wish to make is CONGRATULATIONS.
A couple of observations. First, I do not mind Tom's diatribes. I do mind the idea that Tom is a mouthpiece for Armstrongism. The typical Armstrongite would not even read this blog for fear of being contaminated by "strange" ideas. Because Armstrongites hide behind their defensive perimeter, they are weak in apologetics.
Second, I am delighted that I find prophecy now so boring. At one time, prophecy seemed to me to be the most exciting thing about Armstrongism. If Waterhouse had not employed prophecy so much in his marathon sermons, many more people would have been overtaken by sleep.
I tried to read some of Weinland's stuff just a moment ago and I thought I was going to fall out of my chair. It's a nice feeling.
-- Neo
To Corky:
What have you done to account for the year "zero"?
To Charlie:
Congratulations, dude!!
Congratulations Charlie, a beautiful name for your little girl. She's lucky having a wise old papa!
Neotherm said...
>>>First, I do not mind Tom's diatribes.<<<
And I don't mind yours either, provided they are cogent, coherent and logical. But when you make sweeping generalisations, which many tend to do, by labelling everyone who doesn't find something nasty to say about HWA as an "Armstrongite," a psychopath or dysfunctional, then, I find your diatribe very tiresome.
>>>I do mind the idea that Tom is a mouthpiece for Armstrongism. The typical Armstrongite would not even read this blog for fear of being contaminated by "strange" ideas.<<<
According to your analysis, if I was a "typical Armstrongite" I would not be here, but hiding behind my perimeter. And even though I am here, yet you judge me to be a "mouthpiece for Armstrongism." It is this type of ill-logical reasoning that is often met by my diatribe.
>>>Second, I am delighted that I find prophecy now so boring. At one time, prophecy seemed to me to be the most exciting thing about Armstrongism.<<<
Prophecy has nothing to do with what you called Armstrongism. There were prophets and prophecies long before the birth of HWA. Note what Paul was inspired to write: "God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the PROPHETS, has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son.."(Hebs.1:1-2). And in Paul's opening salutation to the Roman church, we read: "Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,(which he had promised afore by his PROPHETS in the holy scriptures,)"(Roms.1:1-2).
So according to the bible, men were called by God, ordained prophets and sent with warning messages to the world. Most, if not all, of the prophets were reviled, persecuted and killed by people, who according to Saint Augustine, "preferred the blandishments of sin rather than the salutary harshness of virtue." So it is not surprising that HWA is now being reviled by those who have repudiated their former beliefs in preference for the blandishments of sin.
Tom Moron,
Get real - HWA was no prophet. He was a profit, but not a prophet.
We won't take the time to detail all of HWA's failed prophecies.
Richard
As a member of United States Homeland Security, I can assure you that some things are best left undisclosed. However, it would be a safe bet that the FBI already has an open case file on Ron Weinland.
Some of us on the project team were threatened and we did have the FBI open a case file with them concerning the foreign cult agent. Project Team members were getting unsolicited calls at night with the callers hanging up -- up to 12 calls in an hour. Some of those associated with the Churches of God are vicious and dangerous.
I would highly recommend that if there are any from the United States here who have real threats against them, do open a case file with the FBI. Similar agencies in other countries have the equivalent processes to protect their people.
You may never see the results directly, but if there is anything real, there will be results. Contacting Immigration concerning an illegal abusing a family member did have results: It took about six weeks before he was deported and barred from reentry to the United States.
Sometimes we forget just how dangerous some members and ministers of a few churches of God can be and it isn't hyperbole to suggest that a Jim Jones type incident may occur, because it already has several times on a small scale.
I personally hope that history does not repeat itself, but if it does, it should not be because none of us took any action to prevent it.
It should be noted by the perspicacious that psychopaths always specify rules of engagement to their pawns, patsies and patrons: Do it my way or I won't play, to which we say, the world is a big playground and we don't particularly want you -- go play somewhere else, if they will have you, but don't get your hopes up.
Re: the countdown clock: I haven't found one yet that will A) Play nice with WordPress B) Looks cool and finally C) I don't have to program it myself.
What me lazy? What makes you ask?
For CPC:
1. Thanks for the concern. I think, if anything were going to happen, it would have by now. I feel I've covered my tracks enough that the lay-user can't get at me, and I'm pretty sure the CPDL views computers as the ultimate evil, as they're still using text-only BBSs (probably to fly under the radar).
The only ones who really could find me are the FBI or Homeland Security and A) I'm out of their jurisdiction and most importantly B) My little project will help them out if they are after Harrell.
2. I'm glad you saved 60 people. I don't have a target quota, but I'm also not targeting the people in Weinland's sect; I'm providing information for their family members, and any or all investigative agencies that might be after the CPDL and/or Weinland & Co.
As for appreciation, self-grandeur, etcetera, that's Rotten Ronnie's domain. I'm nothing if not tenacious, and if these Aryan Nation idiots wanna sit a christian identity sniper outside my house with an Uzi, they'll have to deal with my next-door neighbour's two lovely Rotweilers. It's not only the right thing to do, it is the ONLY thing I CAN do, which is why I'm doing it.
3. This is why I started this little project. From the first moment I heard about CoG-PKG, I had a foreboding sense of horror. Everyone jokes and makes light and hell, I've been known to crack wise about my own days as an Armstrongist from time to time, but when it comes to RonCo's little propheteering partnerships, the more I see, the less I like.
As for the consequences, well, we will see what happens. I will probably feel guilty if I'm proven to be right. However, I will feel guilty in the knowledge that I have done everything it is within my limited scope to do, to try and avert disaster.
4. See answer 2., above. They have to find me before they can do anything to me, and I ain't that findable to those dumb enough to believe Profit Ron in the first place.
In the second place, there aren't tens of thousands of members in North America and UK to begin with. Let alone millions. Rotten Ronnie's main membership is whoever tunes in to the Christian Identity crap sermons he, Johnny Harrell and Wayne Matthews post up on the website every weekend.
Well, that, and those of us who listen to get a sense of what's coming down the pike. Although I can never listen for very long. Ronald Weinland is definitely drinking his own Kool-Aid. All you have to do is listen to one sermon, and you'll see that.
The sheeple can blame me all they like so long as they're alive to blame me after Rotten Ron's predictions fall through. I'll be happy if they blame me because that means they'll still be alive.
As for the Ronald "calling for my death", well we'll see about that. He hasn't called for anyone else's death, and I'm actually late to the Ron-bashing party. They can go ahead and sue me but I have no money at all so that would be pointless.
Re: wrestling with the Devil. Nope. Don't think so. Been there, done that, and trust me: Weinland isn't truly that evil. He's not, at least from my vantage point, psychopathic; unfortunately for him, his family, and his followers, he is psychotic and delusional.
Your assertions that they are going to come after me would pre-suppose that I pose a literal threat to them, which in all likelihood I don't. I'm not reporting Ron&Co to the authorities, I'm just collating the information that already exists on the Internet about him and his new Aryan Nation brothers Harrell and Matthews. It must also be pointed out that Weinland put that information up there himself.
I don't doubt that members of the CoG-PKG are reading WW: Statistics indicate there is a daily reader or readers that goes through the CoG-PKG link. Either it's a new person each time, wanting to see the madness for themselves, or it's Weinland party faithful. In which case, they've had more than enough opportunity to come after me by now.
So thanks for the concern. If anything goes south, you guys will be the first to know. :)
To CPC (just reading through the rest of the comments thread now) e-mail me. I have some questions.
VonHowitzer said...
To Corky:
What have you done to account for the year "zero"?
There is no year "0". 1 AD was the first year of the common era. IOW 587 BC is 587 years before 1 AD.
Using a calculator, enter - 587 then + 2520 = 1934, which was the end of the 7 times of the gentiles. The 1290 years was in 1964 (anything happen that year?) and the 1335 is in 2009.
Which, by the way, having no year zero means that 2001 was the first year of the new millenium and not the year 2,000 as everyone was thinking.
"The 1290 years was in 1964 (anything happen that year?)"
Heck yes! The Beatles made their first trip to the U.S., and brought forth the British Invasion in rock music! I was ten-going-on-eleven years old, and their shining music hit me just at the right time of my life.
1964! Yes!
"1964! Yes!"
Amen Jebus! Her name was Barbara. I kissed her for first time at swimming lessons we were teaching in Rochester, NY. Barb...call me! :)
It was also the first year I heard a WCG sermon by Fred Coulter in Boise, Idaho... :(
PS Do you know how difficult it is to NOT kiss girls you like from age 18-22? Man...glad I got some lessons in before WCG..
DennisDiehl said...
PS Do you know how difficult it is to NOT kiss girls you like from age 18-22? Man...glad I got some lessons in before WCG..
Hah! More like from age 15 - the age of having no sense of control whatsoever.
Corky said:
Hah! More like from age 15 - the age of having no sense of control whatsoever.
Well yeah, but I got sequesterd at AC from 18-22 where dating or being seen with the same girl twice in a semester was Dean of Students material!
What a dumb ass way to spend those years! Even worse over here at Bob Jones University than AC ever was! Poor kids
RW predicting economic upheaval as we enter a recession . How brilliant is that ?
Astrologers are also predicting an earthquake for California this year ! Watch out !
RW predicting economic upheaval as we enter a recession . How brilliant is that ?
Astrologers are also predicting an earthquake for California this year ! Watch out !
RW predicting economic upheaval as we enter a recession . How brilliant is that ?
Astrologers are also predicting an earthquake for California this year ! Watch out !
I predict that an Anonymous will post the same thing three times in quick succession! :-)
To CPC: Sorry, Blogger ate the mailto ref in the URL.
weinlandwatch is over at
g m a i l
please email me thx
camfinch said...
I predict that an Anonymous will post the same thing three times in quick succession! :-)
I think we have found one if not both of the Two Witnesses!
I haven't read every word of this thread, but Gavin's original post has a testimonial from one of Weinland's followers that says:
"Until Ronald I believed that perhaps E.T's were responsible for life on earth but now I know better."
I mean, really.
When Elokim says "Let us make man in our image," must we conclude that the beings referenced here are terrestrials? Is this not referring to ETs, particularly if we should indeed pray, "Our Father, which art in heaven...". Heaven is not a terrestrial location. Our habit of referring to Elokim as "God" doesn't make the Creator any less extra-terrestrial.
Archaeology and the fossil record reveal an explosion of human creativity back a few thousand years, even though homo sapiens that looked just like us had been here much longer. The Hebrew Torah has Elokim blowing into man a soul, a neshama, that presumably makes the immense creative difference.
If Science must provide an explanation apart from the Scriptural record, it shouldn't seem too far fetched to consider the possibility of extra-terrestrial intervention. Something astounding did vastly and suddenly accelerate the pre-Adamic homo-sapien to human capacity -- and the extra-terrestrial theory is nicely supported in Scripture.
One extra-terrestrial is named by the third word of Hebrew Genesis. "Bereshit bara Elokim et hashamayim v'et haaretz." The verb is characteristically singular, being applied to God, but by the 26th verse the number involved has become the plural, "us." The activity moves to earth -- but apart from Adam, considering the context, all the operatives seem extra-terrestrial, temporarily on earth to initiate a new phase of human development.
As for the word, "us," in Genesis 1, Job writes about "sons of God" or "b'nei Elokim" shouting for joy when the earth was prepared and established in our tiny corner of space. If we dare to believe these ancient tales, Elokim had plenty of extra-terrestrial companionship during earth's early days.
ADVICE FOR THE BRETHREN:
Most readers will be aware of the concept that God has a time plan, that the 'seven-day week' is representative of a seven thousand year divine plan. Man's rule will, in this scenario, end after six thousand years of human existence and be followed by the thousand-year reign of Jesus as 'King of kings and LORD of lords. This, alongside the perceived 'signs of the times', has fuelled the many attempts to establish a date for the expected 'Great Tribulation' followed by the return of Jesus to reign on earth.
Down the centuries there have been times when Christians have been confronted by events that were interpreted as being signs of the imminent end of man's rule. There was a flurry of this interest in the mid-eighteen hundreds - and in the last half of the nineteen hundreds. Even now there are self-styled 'prophets' proclaiming 'the end is nigh'.
History is littered with incarnations of wannabe 'Elijahs' and enough 'two witnesses' to fill a stadium. They have come - and gone. Sadly, they leave a legacy of dashed hopes among their deluded followers. Indeed some - remember Jim Jones, David Koresh - lead their loyal followers to gruesome deaths. Others will lead you off to some desert place or wilderness.
It is vital we take note of God's warning in regard to these false prophets: '...when a prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which Jehovah has not spoken: the prophet has spoken it presumptuously, thou shall not be afraid of him' (Deuteronomy 18:22). Don't be cowed by his charisma or by persuasive words or his wielding of his vaunted authority. Don't follow him. Just observe! This, of course, assumes that you have been alert and not sucked in by his 'story'. Said Jesus: '...beware false prophets'.
How, then, can we be sure we are not deceived by the proclamations of an 'Elijah' or a 'witness' or a self-styled 'prophet'?
One day there will indeed appear not one but two truly God-appointed prophets: '...I will give unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth' (Revelation 11:3). Their mission (in Jerusalem) is described in this chapter
They will do their work by divine power and will have no need of financial supporters
Most likely they will have established their credentials beforehand - by a record of fulfilled prophecies
Their identity is not revealed in Scripture. It has been suggested that God may restore ancient prophets to life as His witnesses - perhaps Elijah and Moses. But no-one knows!
While we should be aware of the 'signs of the times', we must be very cautious about accepting dates for prophesied events. Many Christians believe the 'six thousand years' are complete - though we are now some twelve years beyond the accepted date - based on Creation at 4004BC
Caution, too, as to the time elapsed, for historical - and Biblical - dates are notoriously unreliable. In Judaism, only 5768 (not six thousand) years have elapsed since Creation. Further, the typology of 'the prophetic week' may simply mean that God has imposed a limit on the time man can continue to ignore Him
The only 'sure word of prophecy' in this matter are the words of Jesus: '...And many false prophets shall arise, and shall lead many astray. And because iniquity shall be multiplied, the love of the many shall wax cold. But he that endures to the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a testimony unto all the nations; and then shall the end come' (Matthew 24: 11-14). The key is that we 'endure to the end', faithful to our calling and to our Saviour
Anonymous wrote "Advice for the Brethren":
"Most likely they will have established their credentials beforehand - by a record of fulfilled prophecies. Their identity is not revealed in Scripture. It has been suggested that God may restore ancient prophets to life as His witnesses - perhaps Elijah and Moses. But no-one knows!"
MY COMMENT - I can't believe anyone actually believes this fantasy la la land stuff that Elijah and Moses are going to be resurrected to be God's two witnesses. Get real - the world in the twenty first century wouldn't know, recognize or believe the claim made that the two are the ancient prophets.
Let me guess, could it be that this poster is really one of those flakes who believe God is going to resurrect HWA and GTA to be the two witnesses of Revelation? Flakey though it may be, that would make more sense than Elijah and Moses since there are those from the WCG who believe the Armstrongs are biblical personalities and there are many still alive that would recognize HWA and GTA. I've read on the internet about the flakes who were holding resurrection watches at HWA's grave site.
I guess it is fun to speculate all kinds of possible end time scenarios that won't come to fruition as planned. It chews up a lot of time. I know of WCG people who spent an entire life time and who gave substantial money to WCG speculating about the date of the great tribulation and end of the age.
Richard
No, no, you don't understand! None of you!
Just before the unpostponed Passover in 2012, a ship with two extraterrestrials who actually contributed the DNA to make homo erectus into homo sapiens 6,000 years before to the day, will arrive. These two will be wearing sackcloth because it is very fashionable in their galaxy. These, of course, will be the two witnesses.
They will prophesy accurate prophecies. Armstrongists will hate them and try to kill them, but lightning will come out of their ship and drive them off. They will have landed in Jerusalem because they didn't know any better and skipped Washington D.C.
Corporations will be very unhappy. The two aliens will represent new technologies and will ruin the market place as they glut the market with cheap advanced technologies more popular than cell phones. Corporations will cry and whine for the "good old days" when they could buy and sell human DNA for a profit.
The Arabs will be especially ticked because no one will be needing their oil, so, eventually, they nuke the two witnesses (after the 3.5 years). Actually, everyone is pretty happy, except the other people who were collateral damage from the pocket nuke.
But just then, after 3.5 days, their ship on auto, resurrects them and they fly up into the heavens. They have followers by this time, and armies with millions and millions of ticked Arabs come against Jerusalem to fight in the valley of Meggido. Things get crispy from there and things look bad, when all of a sudden....
The mother ship arrives. The two witnesses were a vanguard. It looks like a white horse. The Supreme Ruler of the Universe, a guy called Ming, will come from the ship and set up a dynasty in Jerusalem for 1,000 years. But then there is an internal struggle and for 100 years the people are sort of on their own, after which the world is destroyed by a bumbling janitor bumping into an earth destruct button by the door in the computer room. The earth burns up with a molten heat and there is sort of a "new heavens" and a "new earth" as the sun becomes seven times hotter, the earth is in darkness and meteorites fall from the sky like popcorn from the balcony in a Saturday matinee.
Other aliens show up, resurrect everybody using stored DNA they had collected earlier secretly and judge mankind as to who has been naughty and nice. They take the nice ones and give them eternal life along with them, or as close as they can get until the whole universe fizzes out at which time eternal life is not what it used to be.
And who is to say that this fantasy is any less real than Ron Weinland's or any other Armstrongist?
Now.
Prove it wrong!
Say! You know! I think I'll start my own church! I think I'll call it Heaven's Alien Gate!
Oh, I forgot. I'm going to advertise all this in The Journal. Hardly anyone will notice though, along side all those other nutty ads, what with the Tribulation Greeting Cards and all.
The nonsense people expound to explain the things they can't possibly know is truly astounding. It also is a waste of mind and life time.
It never ceases to amaze me how people explain their ideas with
"God has to know that...."
"In order for God to...."
"Satan know that...."
"Isaiah understood that God and Satan must..."
"In order for Jesus to have been..."
"Adam and Eve were never...."
"God knew Adam was going to..."
"Satan knew that Eve would..."
"Jesus simple could not have.."
"God's justice demands..."
"John tell us in Revelation that Satan knows that Jesus, in God's plan wants..."
Go ahead, lets make a few thousand more ways we just know it all is.
What a gutsy call: As the economy is nosediving, Rotton Ronnie Weinland jumps on-board the trend and predicts 'economic turmoil'!
Biggest fraud since Pervert W $trongarm.
There may be another believable view - not new at all.
There were certain disciples of Christ preaching in areas, including Jerusalem, after Christ's death.
Some history records that certain of the disciples had been beheaded (possibly in Jerusalem - not sure yet). If true, they may represent the two witnesses.
Then just as Christ had said, "shortly" Jerusalem was destroyed - around 68-70 AD. So no need for us to be stuck in time still waiting .....
I predict that chicken little will continue to run around the barnyard flapping his wings and shouting "the sky is falling, the sky is falling, repent, repent!"
Weinland has named a "Johnny Harrell" as his USA coordinator
Information on one "Johnny Bob Harrell", on the web.. page 3
http://books.google.com/books?id=PjIbp77RTgoC&pg=PA3&lpg=PA3&dq=%22johnny+Bob+harrell%22&source=web&ots=x3FfB3ItCQ&sig=bPWae7RQ-JUP_1rFbaRliEWhjAw
Whether he is Weinland's Harrell or not, remains to be seen, but consider these very odd coincidences...
* Believes he is one of the 144,000 and has a sacred calling within the church as a religious leader. His church is called the "Christian Conservative Church" and he has a known history for building "bomb shelters" (see page 71
http://books.google.com/books?id=nHFCKmo2PH8C&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=%22johnny+Bob+harrell%22&source=web&ots=T3NoF4-wS8&sig=2_s3aD7p9m5x94IUgu_nygrj-HQ
* Hails from Southern Illinois, which is not far from Weinlands base.
* Followers believe that the United States will have imminent invasion.
* Paramilitary, militia and survivalist mentality.
Strange coincidences??
Also check out:
http://books.google.com/books?id=-qIb0IuQlkUC&pg=PA158&lpg=PA158&dq=%22johnny+Bob+harrell%22&source=web&ots=z95iDeg2YP&sig=iU93k92Z0p591NOtWiQzTLkiA7o
Suggests involvement with the Christian Identity movement, armed compounds and restricted access.
I have not known any Johnny Harrell's in my life. Not too many folks go by the name "Johnny" formally as an adult. The odds of a Johnny Harrell also being a BI advocate, end of the world advocate , and paranoid survivalist, who is also associated with Weinland seems like a very real possibility, or at least a topic that needs to be looked into. I find it WAY more than an improbable coincidence.
Weinlands Johnny Harrell speaks at this URL:
http://www.cog-pkg.org/audio/
The tenor of the voice is not of a young man. Johnny Bob Harrell by anything I have found on the net would not be a young man.
Very interesting situation here. One that deserves extreme caution. For those who truly believe in this nonsense and are involved, like Coxcult said, they wont listen. However, if you know of any fringers, who may have a beginners interest in Weinland, do your friend a favor and KEEP THEM FAR AWAY! This is a POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS SITUATION! Men with guns, and paranoia are a lethal mix with the Bible.
Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA
Another must read:
http://books.google.com/books?id=nHFCKmo2PH8C&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=%22johnny+Bob+harrell%22&source=web&ots=T3NoF4-wS8&sig=2_s3aD7p9m5x94IUgu_nygrj-HQ
An excerpt:
Christian-Patriots Defense League (C-PDL) - The C-PDL is a nonstate group of right-wing survivalists who aim to create a militia and fortified encampments to preserve white, Christian Americans against a coming Communist invasion and racial war. Although the group's aims might appear to be limited by the remoteness of the imagined future holocaust insofar as the group forms part of the network of white supremacist and anti-Semitic groups, such as the Aryan Nations
and Ku Klux Klan, it may be assumed to hold the same revolutionary goals of resisting and destroying the United States government, or what such circles refer to as the "Zionist Occupation Government."
Despite the similarity in names, the C-PDL is not directly related to the Identity Christianity preacher Wesley Smith's Christian Defense League. Rather it is the brainchild of current leader John Robert Harrell ("Johnny Bob"), a former mausoleum salesman who devoted himself to the Identity Christian message after experiencing an apocalyptic vision during an illness in 1959.
Convinced that a Jewish conspiracy was leading to a Communist invasion of the United States as well as a racial war, Harrell sought to train militia to defend a "Mid-America Survival Zone." He became an associate of Robert dePugh, founder of the
Minutemen, and became a frequent contributor to the Minutemen's tabloid On
Target.
Harrell gave refuge to a Marine who had gone AWOL after embracing the Identity creed, and in August 1961 Federal agents overran Harrell's fortified Louisville, Illinois, estate where they found four underground two-man bunkers
and stockpiles of food and ammunition. Harrell and his followers did not resist arrest, and Harrell was sentenced to four years in prison for harboring a Federal fugitive and on various tax evasion charges. After DePugh was imprisoned in 1968 on a conspiracy conviction, Harrell created four organizations to fill the void left by the defunct Minutemen: The religious organization was the Christian
Conservative Church of America, which teaches a synthesis of Christianity, nationalism, anti-Semitism, and anti-Communism. The political branch is the Christian-Patriots Defense League. The military branch is the Citizens Emergency Defense System, a private militia. The fund-raising branch is the Paul Revere Club. One may be a member of the religious branch without having to belong to the other branches while members of the military and political branches are not required to believe in the group's Identity Christian doctrine so long as they otherwise support its white supremacist and anti-Semitic program.
The C-PDL operates a 220-acre compound beside the Mark Twain
National Forest, near Licking, Missouri; a 55-acre paramilitary training facility near Flora, Illinois; and its "Survival Base" near Smithville, West Virginia. The group hosts an annual "Freedom Festival" in Flora in which survivalist and Identity groups conduct weapons workshops and hold Identity doctrine speeches and
seminars.
Bill Lussenheide , Menifee, CA USA
The two witnesses in Revelation are the two priests who negotiated with the Romans for the lives of those Jews who were no involved in the revolt. The 42 months and the 1260 days of Rev. 11:2-8 are the the same as the 3 1/2 year siege on Jerusalem by the Romans 66-70 AD.
The insurrectionists are the beast who killed these two witnesses along with all other Jews in Jerusalem who refused to fight the Romans.
Everyone would know this if they would read Josephus' "Wars of the Jews".
Revelation was fulfilled in 70 AD and it's not my fault that it wasn't written until c.96 AD. Nothing in there is future, it is all preter 1,938 years ago.
It all comes from people who don't believe what Jesus said:
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
That's okay though, cause I don't believe what he said either.
Please note on my long post above that Harrell also has had a history of "end of the world visions", which would make him a comrade in arms with Weinland...
"John Robert Harrell ("Johnny Bob"), a former mausoleum salesman who devoted himself to the Identity Christian message after experiencing an apocalyptic vision during an illness in 1959."
Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA
I predict the world will end on December 21 2012. The great tribulation will begin exactly on April 15th 2008. Rest assured I know what I am talking about. Write it down. I have declared it to the world. Check out the Myan Callendar.
I believe that this post is important!
According to the Weinland site, they will celebrate the Passover on April 19th. It is the day that Weinland has set as the beginning of the 1260 days.
This day, in light of any militia connections of Weinland/Harrell should ring some bells.
April 19th is Patriots Day in the USA. It celebrates the beginning of the American revolution with the battle of Lexington in 1775.
Many militia and patriot groups use the day as a rally point. Adolph Hitlers birthday is also conveniently located at April 20th as well.
Sabbatarian Cult Leader David Koresh met his fate by the ATF on April 19th 1993. This event at Waco Texas , is also a militia rally point.
Two years later, exactly on April 19th, 1995, Timothy McVeigh blew up the Federal building in Oklahoma City. He was an involved in militia type activities and even sold copies of the "Turner Diaries", a bible for patriot/militia types. He deliberately chose April 19th as the date to avenge the Waco Texas event with Koresh.
If Wienland has a connection with the movement thru Harrell, (which I believe) then
I am very ,very concerned!
Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA
Wayne Matthews is listed as the Australian/ New Zealand connection for Weinland.
He apparently sponsored a USBC (no surprise here) event for a Dr. Sherrod in Melbourne Australia, where he resides, back in the 1990s.
The article states how "well attended" the series was with those "outside" of the COG circle.
Things are getting curiouser and curioser!
Bill Lussenheide , Menifee, CA USA
Shaman Eaglebear said...
I predict the world will end on December 21 2012.
I predict the Mayan Calendar will end on that date and the Sun of God will lay three days, motionless in the grave, or horizon..whatever, as it does every year at the Solstice until Virgo brings forth the Sun and it is born again.
I predict the Sun will then, at about 30 degrees, or is it years old...I forget, enter into the presence of the Waterman, Aquarius, in January, and be baptised to begin its ministry.
While tempted by the darkness and Satan, of winter not to be the SUN of God and over come the darkness, the SUN will head to Easter and win over the darkness, finish out the one year ministry and end up low in the grave again to be born at Xmas..again...and again....and again....
So let it be said..so let it be written.
You just wait and see if I am not right!
:)
PS The Mayan calendar is fascinating on its own merits. Sure beats Mr. Gregorian
dd
Weinland seems to me a definitive prophet wannabe, sincere, concerned, misinformed. One pities people like this because of the inevitable embarrassment they'll soon face.
But Lussenheide raises serious concerns. I can't imagine Weinland as a dangerous personality, but if -- a very big IF -- the possibility is real, someone ought to be watching the guy from inside his group. Jim Jones, and that Heaven's Gate leadership, must have seemed fairly benign too, until it was too late.
GOOD LORD I'm gonna need to get away from this site. Last night I dreamed Weinland was in my kitchen cleaning up with one of those spray cleaners like 409 or Fantastic. The trigger squirter was not working so he sprayed WD40 on it to get it working!
No doubt however I'll be checking in just like I do every night.
Weinland should be watched very close from now on.
"The trigger squirter was not working so he sprayed WD40 on it to get it working!"
Are you sure it was not WWJD40?
That's the prophetic formula for cleaning up spills :)
Do the COGs have a "Waterhouse" to figure out numbers and spray cleaner meanings ? Hmmm ...409 must mean something " Fantastic" and it was in a dream.It was my dream. I had spent all evening cleaning. Then checked this site as is my nightly routine.
About 10,000 years ago, the Hebrews who worshipped the volcano pantheon of gods at Mt. Ararat in Armenia left off that worship because of the volcano going dormant. (see the story of Noah's ark and where the ark landed).
They left Ararat and went into the plains and built a man-made mountain. (see the story of the tower of Babel). Then part of them went to Canaan.
Later, a man named Abraham felt the calling of a volcano toward the west and went to Canaan.
The fire and smoke of Mt. Sinai wasn't real. It was the fire and smoke of Mt. Ararat that was the real volcano. It was in Armenia that the law was given to the Hebrews - at the foot of Mt. Ararat.
Put 2 and 2 together and you can figure it out:
http://www.reference.com/search?q=Mt.%20Ararat
http://essenes.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=272&Itemid=574
There is a past history of WCG people and the militias, both in Texas and Montana.
While I don't want to imply that there is no danger at all because of these connections, the feds do very carefully monitor all of these groups' activities, in fact much more so than they would just your garden variety of weirdo culties.
If in fact Weinland has brought someone from the Christian Patriot movement into his folds, he's defiantly inviting scrutiny! (which will work for good, in this case!)
Probably, the greatest danger or threat would be to people who later attempt to leave the fold. Blood in, blood out, as they say.
BB
I wonder if Weinland's man in the USA, Johnny Harrell, is related to the Alfred Harrell mentioned in the issue No. 27, April 30, 1999 issue of the Journal.
Corky said:
>>>The fire and smoke of Mt. Sinai wasn't real. It was the fire and smoke of Mt. Ararat that was the real volcano. It was in Armenia that the law was given to the Hebrews - at the foot of Mt. Ararat.<<<
When one is deceived one tends to believe anything, except the truth.
I believe everyone is over reacting to Weiland's prophecies of the end of the world, and exhibiting a macabre wish that when they fail he might just come up with a devious plan to murder all his supporters in one final act of defiance; so that everyone will be able to say, "I told you so!" And this from people who claim to be sane, caring and compassionate.
Weiland is not unique in prophesying the end of the world. COG land, and much of the rest of the world for that matter, is littered with failed prophecies of the end of the world. And when the criticism and furore have died down, the false prophets tend to quietly slip away into obscurity.
There will always be the odd few who can't cope with the shame of failure, and would want and are able to persuade their followers to commit mass suicide. But these events are very rare! Actually, it may be argued, that the few who have been guilty of such atrocities, were partly driven to such madness by excessive media attention and the aggressive methods of the authorities in trying to rescue followers. So all the "do-gooders" out there need to be careful!
Weiland will come and Weiland will go, but the end of the world will come, "as a thief in he night," suddenly and unexpectedly upon those who walk in darkness, "and they shall not escape."
And when the criticism and furore have died down, the false prophets tend to quietly slip away into obscurity.
Totally wrong headed: Herbert Armstrong hasn't slipped away into obscurity.
Tired Skeptic:
Agreed! That was my reaction too.
Richard
JD Schroeder said: "Jim Jones, and that Heaven's Gate leadership, must have seemed fairly benign too, until it was too late."
Thank you! That's exactly what I've been saying, ever since I heard Rotten Ronnie started setting dates for 2008!
Weinland Watch. It's not much, and I'm not on the inside, but it's the best I can do.
As for Harrell inviting scrutiny, I believe he may be flying under the American feds' radar right now. Unfortunately for those of us trying to draw attention to Weinland's sect.
THE 2 WITNESSES:
"According to the latest findings, there are 737 publicly announced "Two Witnesses". This is astonishing in itself in that there can be by definition, only "Two". It goes to show any reasonable individual that somethin here is awry."
There are only 2 witnesses and I am both of them.
Weinland is getting response, which is disturbing. According to Quantcast, which tracks internet websites, there were nearly 40,000 uniquely seperate visitors to Weinlands websites last month....
http://www.quantcast.com/ronaldweinland.com/traffic
Kookiness sells!
Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA
Hopefully a lot of that traffic is from sites like AW and Shadows and PT and ESN trying to warn people about Weinland. Could be the traffic is also from people who have heard Weinland speak on Whackjob Radio.....
Herbert Armstrong hasn't slipped away into obscurity.
It's a matter of perspective, I'd say. Armstrongists and former Armstrongists are so close that they can find it hard to understand just how obscure and unknown Herbert Armstrong is. He always was much bigger in his own estimation, and is ours, than he ever was in most people's eyes. Most people have never heard of him, and as time goes on fewer and fewer people will have ever known of him.
And the sooner "fewer and fewer" becomes "absolutely no one" the better................
The latest sermon on Weinland's website is 45 Days to the Seventh Seal.
Bill's already listened to it. The prospect makes me ill, but I've got to do the same.
Gavin do you still have Weinland's phone number? (Did you ever really have his phone number?) Can you call him up before sunset on April 18th and ask him just what exactly he's got in the works?
Very very disturbing.
INFO STRAIGHT FROM THE WEINLAND GROUP
From: Bill Lussenheide
To: thecofg@aol.com
Sent: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 11:21 am
Subject: Johnny Harrell
To whom it may concern:
Is your US Evangelist Johnny Harrell , the same person as Johnny Robert Harrell?
Could you please provide biographical information about Mr. Harrell. Of interest is his age, work background, and religious/political history.
This will be used as press release material. Please advise.
Regards.
Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA
From: thecofg@aol.com
bill.lussenheide
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 2:13 PM
Subject: Re: Johnny Harrell
Hello Bill,
This has only come to our attention concerning what someone with affiliation to Ambassador Watch wrote about Johnny Harrell, who was recently ordained as an evangelist in the Church of God - PKG. We are indeed looking into the material recently posted by this individual who is fully in error, and what he has written is fully slanderous in nature. There has certainly been no effort on their part to find anything factual about Mr. Harrell, but only a flimsy attempt to twist and distort an association with first and last names in an effort to slander the Church and Johnny Harrell, who is an evangelist in the Church.
There is absolutely no association between these two people and they are clearly different people (which wouldn't be too hard to verify if someone put the slightest effort into their fact gathering). Johnny Harrell has been in the construction business for 30 years with his own company in the construction of homes in the Macon, GA area. He has no political background at all and was a member of the Worldwide Church of God for many years before that church organization moved away from the teachings it had embraced for decades. Mr. Harrell then associated himself with the current Church of God organization that splintered from the WCG in 1995.
We would like to receive information from you as to what organization you represent and if you have any association with Ambassador Watch. What organization is responsible for such a press release and what is its purpose?
We await your reply,
the Church of God - PKG
2-21-08 To The COGFG@aol.com
To Whom It May Concern:
Ambassador Watch is a blog. It is open to the public for posts. I have written to you for clarification as to who your Evangelist Johnny Harrell is.
No one at Ambassador Watch has stated that the specific Johnny Harrell that is in your church, is guilty of anything or specifically has any connections or implications.
However, as was demonstrated at the site, there is indeed MUCH written about a Johnny Harrell on the internet (websites quoted at the site) , who is an individual who clearly has militia, and paramiltary connections, as well as End Time apocalyptic visions. These websites are not connected to anyone at Ambassador Watch, or the COG community.
I write, as a member of the general COG, in good standing and reputation, that is held in high regard by many in the online COG community. Thank you for your response, and I will be sure that your information provided will be posted widely for clarification purposes in regards to your specific Johnny Harrell, and his lack of connection to the Johnny Harrell that is found researching the internet.
Regards
Bill Lussenheide
I never stated outright that Harrell had links to those groups; I always speculated that he might and asked if he did, which CoG-PKG could have emailed me about at any time (the email address for WW is pretty much plastered in six-foot-high letters across the "About" page").
Interesting to note that the well-established home construction business in Macon, GA, is not as easily findable, at least on a cursory search, as the information about one "Johnny Harrell".
The keen observer will also recognize the fact that they say nothing at all about Matthews, who has definitively been tied to Anglo-Israelism, as recently as 1998.
Weinland himself preaches about US&BC in the latest sermon posted to the website, "45 Days to the Seventh Seal" (assuming they don't edit that part out after this).
Anglo-Israelism gave the initial "push" to many CoG splinters, as well as to several christian identity and militia groups.
If the CoG-PKG does not want to draw undue attention or potentially awkward speculation to itself, it should not be promoting US&BC as the lost tribes of Israel.
One further point:
Weinland Watch is not affiliated with Ambassador Watch in any way, other than remarks I have made on the public comments section of the site.
This guy is small potatoes, mercifully limiting himself and his followers to a few weeks of excited waiting for the end as their lives go on normally. There is no Mt. Carmel or Jonestown in this story.
The prophecies will fail. Nothing will happen. Weinland's credibility will vanish. Major embarrassment.
Change of name and location for Weinland and back to the old day job. Bye-bye, Ronnie.
Followers will rethink -- or begin to think. If they've sacrificed savings, they'll have to rebuild nest eggs. Some will wait for two more witnesses; others will take their families on pleasant vacations...
"There is no Mt. Carmel or Jonestown in this story."
I certainly hope that there isn't. I want to be proven just as "false" as Rotten Ronnie will be, come the 17th of April.
There may not be a Mt. Carmel or Jonestown in this story----but I want to make sure there won't be. Even if it is my agitating caution and advisories that prevents Ron&Co from going through with something they may have otherwise planned for their "seventh seal", then I will consider my efforts worthwhile.
God speed, Weinland Watch. He who saves one human life, for him it is as if he saved the entire universe.
Oh, one final note, Weinland did not predict Meredith would die by the end of February. So I have been (reliably?!) informed by a member of the CoG-PKG. Apparently there's no timeline on the seven thunders, but there is on the seven seals. Hence the April 17th date being a seventh seal not a seventh thunder.
It all makes sense to them. But I've blown my credibility with at least one of them now, thanks to Bill's assumption.
Of note, the CoG-PKG will be keeping Passover after sunset on April 18th. I wonder if the church has called for a fast on the 17th? I know there was a church fast on the 2nd, when the 1335 days was started off by Weinland.
I watched Purple Haze last night. It was most edifying. :-(
"There is no Mt. Carmel or Jonestown in this story."
In fact there is.
Look at the epicenter of the 5.2 quake on April 17th (Hawaii time).
Closest town?
Mt. Carmel
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