Snap! How surprising that like the current Good News, the September-October Tomorrow's World features a lead article on why we should all be studiously avoiding political participation. The highly original title: How Would Jesus Vote for President? Obviously the DNA runs true in both LCG and UCG.Rod Meredith advocates a "Chicken Little" Gospel. The one true purpose of a Christian is to run around like a headless chook - the sky is falling!
What would Jesus do in this election year in the United States? He would be so busy proclaiming the good news of the soon-coming Kingdom of God that He would have no time - and no interest - in politicking, voting or taking part in any groups pressuring to clean up Satan's world. (p.8)
No worries dudes. Sit back, take it easy. Children dying in Africa? Sad, but don't sweat it: three to five years and it'll be taken care of. Just keep praying and paying.
Probably within this very generation, the biblical Jesus Christ will return to sit on a real throne in the city of Jerusalem. (p.6)
Bollocks.
Rod has been pushing this wagon uphill since before most of us were born. A polluted environment? It's just a sign of the times, do nothing. Community concerns? Don't get involved. Injustice? Not our business. The same mentality pervades almost all COG groups... even the more enlightened factions tend to look down their snooters at those prepared to roll up their sleeves and work for change in the here and now - especially systemic change as opposed to band aids. Why bother? Jesus Christ will take care of it shortly... in three to five... probably.Maybe there's a challenge for Rod and his god, the missing-in-inaction god of 1972, 19 year time cycles and "three to five" - in 1 Kings 18:
Maybe he's meditating, or he's off relieving himself, or he's gone on a journey. Maybe he's just asleep and needs someone to go and wake him up. (cf. v.27)
Yup, Elijah was the original scoffer, setting a valuable biblical precedent. And I suspect Elijah was a bit more colloquial than most prim Bible translators and paraphrasers allow.
Rod needs to consider trading in his Chicken Little model for a Little Red Hen. He can probably pick up some clues from the Salvation Army, the Quakers, or even (shudder) the nice Catholic folks at Caritas. Handwringing procrastination in hope of a fantasy utopia "probably" dropping down out of the skies "within this very generation" just doesn't cut it any longer: we've all heard that before - some of us over l-o-n-g decades. Rod's track record is abysmal. It's just plain delusional.
A do nuthin' gospel? A sit-tight, hold-fast till some latter-day prophet of Baal finally hits a home run gospel? That's no gospel at all: time to dump it in favor of something more authentic. A good place to begin is by participating in the democratic process, a right, responsibility and privilege that has been hard won and should never be wasted.
53 comments:
These groups have forgotten who their "neighbor" is, as defined by Jesus Christ. Also, the meaning of good stewardship!
They also have a vested interest in the status quo becoming as deplorable as possible. They would probably be horrified and think the antichrist had landed, if suddenly our nations experienced a spiritual revival, and thousands or even millions began to have their hearts transformed by the true gospel.
BB
Gavin, life sometimes produces some strange co-incidences that I guess keeps us all connected in the ex-WCG community.
By coincidence, I have a tenant who recently vacated a property I own and while I was going through the house, I found the very same issue of the UCG’s Good News magazine that you recently pictured here on AW. There was a renewal cover letter from Clyde Kilough.
As an aside, I knew Mr. Kilough’s wife Dee Kilough (Debbie Finlay) from my WCG youth here in Washington, D.C. I have nothing but good memories and good things to say about the Finlay family.
Glancing through the UCG’s Good News magazine, it was the first time in many years that I have touched a Herbert Armstrong influenced magazine. Perhaps if I was younger and had just stumbled onto the magazine and didn’t have the personal knowledge and history of the WCG past, I might have been interested. Instead, I glanced through it, saw it was more of the same old same old, and then I did what anyone else would do who has experienced being burnt by a “false profit” merchandising fear end time religion for personal gain – I tossed the magazine right into the trash.
Richard
Decades ago I attended a conference on Energy, Food and Population. I had all the material for a stereotypical "bad news" Spokesmans Club speech. Then the director (a lay member this time, not the minister) turned tables and said we may be judged for being able to fix a problem and doing nothing. I heard Ron Dart using a similar argument on voting - why complain about your government if you didn't take part in electing it.
Back in Australia, voting is compulsory, and elections are on Saturday. Some members didn't vote, and some were fined - but usually got off with the "religious beliefs" excuse. Others performed their duty but submitted a blank ballot.
A do nothing religion is a government's dream come true. While the fundamentalists are craving the Second Coming, the realists can take advantage of the moment. Whoever stuck Romans 13, and if it was Paul, he was a turncoat "Pharisee" of his people, in the book was brilliant. Trust and obey the government and just wait for your Jesus to come save you. That way, you get church and we get obedience and compliance. Way to teach "Paul"! You can work for any government on earth in the Dept of Homeland Religion!
Who was the fool who said "they rule for our good?" They have always ruled for their good. How naive of Paul.
Gavin noted:
"Maybe there's a challenge for Rod and his god, the missing-in-inaction god of 1972, 19 year time cycles and "three to five" - in 1 Kings 18:
Maybe he's meditating, or he's off relieving himself, or he's gone on a journey. Maybe he's just asleep and needs someone to go and wake him up. (cf. v.27)"
God and Jesus seem to have been missing for a lot longer than that.
If you look at the history of the Bible text, you see a God that walks and talks in the garden with humans. Then a god that appears in bushes or wrestles with humans. Then the god needed blood, priests and temples to be appeased and called down. Then a god that only shows up to individuals in their heads and they tell us what God says, then he goes missing and we have a god that is only on paper and religion becomes reading the word of the used to be around God to people. Often the ministers have to shout and plea and beg for this paper god to come back and pay attention. The ministers yell at the memebers for "not getting it." And that's where we are today.
The Bible God went from Now here to Never Here.
Then the people go home and get back to the real world and get accused of saying "my lord delays his coming" (which is true) or labeled "scoffers" saying that nothing has changed, (which it hasn't).
But somehow the religionists and God still come out smelling like a rose because ,well, it's in the book so it must be true.
Once you see it, scoffers and doubters in the Bible are more accurate observers and the character of "Satan" tells the truth of matters more correctly than not. The Serpent told the absolute truth in the Garden of Eden mythology. (only to become "satan" much later in history). Go figure.
Example:
The lie.....
2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "
The truth....
4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
God agrees with the Serpent...
21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
The wise counselor to the "goddes" Eve was correct in his view. The jealous El and his council of the gods had to stop man from becoming like one of them, knowing good and evil (a god thing)and then living forever as a god with that info.
Too bad Wall Street guys don't know good from evil.
A true christian DOES NOT VOTE. A true christian is a citizen of heaven, an ambassador for Christ just like an ambassador from another country does not get involved in your country,s politics but obey the laws of your land so does a christian. Our citizenship is heaven, we are pilgrims and sojourners on earth awaitng God,s glorious Kingdom.Can you point out any human government that served their people in past and present? Human government has only gotten more and more corupt even in the wonderful western nations.No human government can correct the hell man has created on earth.
Thumbs up Gavin! That was a passionate commentary. I am in the works of saying something on this subject on my blog pretty soon.
Gavin, in this article, you have completely personified yourself as a true Scoffer. It does little for those of us who do not want to participate in this Present Evil World. We will quietly wait for our soon coming King and High Priest, whether He comes now or in several years. You, however, have thrown your crown to the swine, but you don't have to wallow in the swill along with it.
Although christians do not get involved with the affairs of this world. Christ has shown us over and over that we are to do good to all especially the household of faith. Scoffers just don't believe God. No matter how much we do or give, life will not change until Christ sets up His Kingdom on this earth. We should all want to see all nations living in peace and prosperity and therefore be praying Thy Kingdom come
"We will quietly wait for our soon coming King and High Priest, whether He comes now or in several years."
This leave me wondering what the author believes is the point of the parable of the talents (Matt 25:14-30)and its subsequent verses 31-46, but I realize that the standard counter argument is that such works are supposed to do this for the sheep and not the goats...therefore not only justifying their inaction, but judging those not of their mindset as goats.
Sitting quietly also seems to ignore "The Great Commission" in Matt 28:19....Isn't that a command to "go" not "sit"?
Many people on earth have dual citizenship; why should citizenship in heaven preclude citizenship on earth?
Joseph, Moses, Daniel and his friends all participated mightily in the governments of non-Israelite nations. Did this cost them their Israelite identities? Joseph and Daniel allowed themselves new names that identified themselves with pagan gods. Mordechai gave his niece a proper pagan name to make her Jewish identity invisible to the royal court of Persia, and Esther (Hadassah) saved her people from inside the Persian court, as a member of the emperor's harem.
In America, where sovereignty rests in the people, citizenship defines the citizen as a participant in government. The president is not sovereign, government is not from the top down, freedom is the result, with the hope that government of, by and for the people should not perish from earth.
It is difficult, particularly if one makes the Bible one's code for life, to understand complete refusal to participate in the government of a sovereign people. There is too much precedent to the contrary on the part of men and women whose lives were obviously absorbed in Godliness.
"Gavin, in this article, you have completely personified yourself as a true Scoffer."
I rest my case.
Why is pointing out the obvious scoffing?
Why is it wrong to notice that for 2000 years, "soon", "things which must shortly come to pass," "time is short and those with wives as though they had none," (no problem there for most), "behold I come quickly," simply was not and is not true?
Why is it scoffing to notice that nothing of what WCG of old said about Prophecy from the who to the how was real or true?
Why is it wrong to ask, after TWO THOUSAND YEARS...'where is the promise of his coming?' again
The "for the lord is not slack..but day is as a thousand years" apologetic was added to deflect just such noticing. It was the modern day equivelent of "God has given us more time, praise Jesus!" When what Paul said was not true, the "truth" was tweaked to keep it seeming true and the same is done today in all the churches that rely on prophecy and the imminent Second Coming to motivate the faithful.
Why is one suspect for refusing to promote, "just over the next hill," "around the next corner," "in a few short years," "In you lifetime" or "soon, very soon," and called a scoffer?
What? Afraid to die like 100% of the rest of humanity in the past has done?
How about we change the word from scoffing to observing? Perhaps "a noticer of the none return of Jesus? is better than scoffer? Scoffing carries a certain vindictive and mocking baggage. You're not dealing with scoffers here with a WCG background. You're dealing with people who woke up and realize one has to be basically unconscious to keep up the charade of "soon."
It was wrong of the Apostle Paul to limit relationships in his sphere of influence. He was wrong to tell people not to marry and stay like him when Jesus taught the opposite. It was wrong of Paul to act like Jesus was just around the corner and then simply say, "oh well, I fought a good fight, I finished the course, I kept the faith, therefore there is laid up for me me me, a crown which I shall get for ME," having ruined relationships and lives who thought he was on some inside track with God. He wasn't any more than HWA, Weinland, Pack, Meredith, Flurry or Tkach and Benny Hinn.
Scoffers or more accurately OBSERVERS, keep those able to be scorned honest or at least on their toes and maybe willing to think before they make complete fools out of themselves...again and again, at the expense of very sincere people.
One man's scoffer is another's lifeline out of insanity and foolishness.
Hold on guys, did or did not United COG vote for their President and Vice President and so on?
You mean now it is ok to vote inside your church but not outside. Who is the hypocrite now!
Isaiah 5:19-21
19 to those who say, "Let God hurry,
let him hasten his work
so we may see it.
Let it approach,
let the plan of the Holy One of Israel come,
so we may know it."
(But in this "waiting" period the member never lifts a hand to help. Like the Amish community, they only TAKE and give nothing back in return.)
20 Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter.
(The member calls the world evil as they lift not a hand to make it better. They take but give back nothing in return. Not even a vote will they cast due to their hatred of their fellow man. For all of the world, the people that is, are EVIL and reject the Harmstrong version of salvation. Therefor they are of the world.)
21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes
and clever in their own sight.
(It is wise in the eyes of an Armstrongite to call themselves wise and the world evil. It is wise to them to accept the word of God through a drunken pedophile while at the same time, ignoring the basic evidence that Herb lived a life of great evil that harmed many, many people. But then again, the members call the formers "evil.")
when all is said and done we know what the final outcome will be, right?
how will voting change it?
how will not voting change it?
Dennis observed:
"A do nothing religion is a government's dream come true."
How true! Adolf Hitler was grateful for the same attitude when he said:
"What good fortune for governments that the people do not think."
Seems like we've got some parrots flying about the building: "Wawk!
A true Christian does not vote!" "Wawkkk! Ambassadors for Christ!" "Wawwkkkk! Our kingdom is not of this world!" Unthinking and mindless cliches, every last one of them!
What if there was a community referendum regarding a highway that would cut though your church or home? Would you sit back and do nothing? What if there was a ballot initiative, as there was in California about twenty years ago, concerning overtly gay teachers in the public schools? Would God expect you COGgers to vote on something like that? How about electing anti-abortion candidates to stop the daily murder of the innocent preborn?
I think that, as ambassadors for Christ, it becomes a Christian's duty to stand up and be counted on God's side of the issues. An effective ambassador is a very good and forceful advocate for his country or kingdom! Granted, there are not always clearly defined lines, but you can certainly set a very Christian example by being a good citizen. Heck, you can even write in the name "Jesus Christ" if it makes you feel better, but we've all got to be an active force for good. Otherwise, we're just laying back and allowing all manner of evil to take place. I guess that's great if you believe that the gospel is simply that Jesus is going to return to kick a$$ and then enforce the law of Moses, but inactivity accomplishes nothing if you believe that the gospel is the transformative power of Jesus, starting one person at a time, and that Christians letting their lights shine can be an active part of a Godly conspiracy!
Christians are going to be discerning where they believe the Holy Spirit is working, and lending their voices to that effort!
BB
Would Christ vote for HWA? NO! Christ does not vote.He appoints His servants.He appointed HWA to start the Philadelphia era of the church. We see in the Bible men like Paul being set apart from the womb.
Anon said:
"No matter how much we do or give, life will not change until Christ sets up His Kingdom on this earth."
That is demonstrable not true. Human life span for people in developed countries is now greater than 70 or 80 years. Certain diseases have almost been eliminated, such as small pox and polio. Diseases on the verge of elimination that are making a small comeback are doing so because certain people, in their ignorance or poverty - in my opinion -refuse to allow their children to be vaccinated, thereby putting their children and other people at risk.
Within the past 100 years or so civilization has developed elaborate and very successful process for delivering clean water and the miracle of electricity to hundreds of millions of people. And, these people, for the most part, are being fed and housed much better than the average person in history.
Those are just a few examples. All these things happened because curious, determined human beings made them happen. The U.S. and the Soviet Union did NOT get into nuclear war with each other. At least some nuclear warheads have been dismantled and destroyed over the past 20 years.
Human beings may, in fact, be capable of working out long term plans that will help us solve problems in population control, food production, pollution and other issues.
To say that we can or should do nothing and just wait for god to fix everything is childish. It is dumb. It avoids taking any responsibility for what happens in your community, large or small.
Anonymous said...
A true christian DOES NOT VOTE. A true christian is a citizen of heaven, an ambassador for Christ just like an ambassador from another country does not get involved in your country,s politics but obey the laws of your land so does a christian. Our citizenship is heaven, we are pilgrims and sojourners on earth awaitng God,s glorious Kingdom.Can you point out any human government that served their people in past and present? Human government has only gotten more and more corupt even in the wonderful western nations.No human government can correct the hell man has created on earth.
Aside from the obvious word for word parroting of Herbert W Armstrong.....
...has the poster considered what such a view makes of the Apostle Paul exercising his right of Roman citizenship to avoid being executed?
Not to mention all those early Christians in Rome who would have loved to have had a vote in what happened to their lives.
What Herbert W Armstrong hated was dealing with any opposing point of view because of his little man ego. So he read the scriptures in a way that fit the way he wanted to run his church.
Democracy may be messy, it may be inefficient, but at least it allows its subjects the right to change knuckleheads who rule over them. Occasionally you even get an Abe Lincoln, a Winston Churchill, or a Nelson Mandela.
2Corinthians 6:17
Come out from among them and be separate says the Lord
Do not touch what s unclean
and I will receive you.
Hebrews 11:13
All these died in faith not having received the promises but having seen them from afar off were assured of them, embraced them,and confessed that they strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Christians are to stay out of the world politics even though we have to live in the world
Anonymous said, "'All these died in faith not having received the promises but having seen them from afar off were assured of them, embraced them,and confessed that they strangers and pilgrims on the earth.'
"Christians are [therefore] to stay out of the world politics even though we have to live in the world."
You say all these died in faith, and from this you extrapolate the conclusion that Christians should stay out of world politics. Yet "All these" include Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Rahab, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets. Not one of those people were Christians, and two of them participated intimately in the politics of Egypt. David participated in the politics of Israel, and had the majority of the people's hearts even while Saul was king.
One might notice that the WCG people who join United, Meredith, Flury, Pack, Dankenbring, Coulter or others are choosing between competing leaders. Congregants don't fill out ballets, but they freely choose their leadership with their feet, their loyalty, their hearts and their money. The decision is completely political, a matter of personal preference. Every one of the leaders has been disfellowshipped by one or more of the contenders, but fear not little flock...
As for Jesus, he rode into Jerusalem on a donkey's colt, in the regal tradition of his ancestor, King David. Herod was Rome's King of Jews, yet Jesus dared to ascend the throne anyway, in Herod's face, and the vast throng of people accepted him with enthusiasm, shouting "Save us now!" (Hosha na in Aramaic). It was a political decision on the part of a man known to carry the royal blood.
His action was open sedition; the Roman penalty for sedition was death by crucifixion. The high priesthood was in Rome's pocket. The rest is history. The people would have made him king; Rome had no choice but to do him in. He wouldn't be saving them from Rome, at least not then.
His participation in Roman-Jewish politics got him killed, but his actions were political. Just as were those of Joseph and Moses, Daniel, Shadrack, Meshack, Abednego and Esther.
When a non-church child runs into the street, should a church member pull him or her out of danger? When a country might live or die because the choice of leadership might be good or bad, shouldn't every citizen help the nation avoid danger? How can the American church survive if the country is destroyed by rotten leadership?
This might be a good time to re-read Lincoln's Gettysberg Address, and then to thank God for providing all of us the freedom, at the cost of much American blood and treasure, to worship as we choose -- as citizens of America and of the Kingdom of Heaven.
Anonymous said...
Hebrews 11:13
All these died in faith not having received the promises but having seen them from afar off were assured of them, embraced them,and confessed that they strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Christians are to stay out of the world politics even though we have to live in the world.
We'll make sure and tell you when the mothership arrives to pick you all up.
The most primitive instinct of mankind is to separate into ideological and ethnic tribes. Its hardly like God needs to command it to happen.
It took a man like Jesus to eat with the whore, the tax collector, the Ethiopian, the soldier, the every day man.
An Anonymous Poster wrote: "All these died in faith not having received the promises but having seen them from afar off were assured of them, embraced them,and confessed that they strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Christians are to stay out of the world politics even though we have to live in the world"
--> People that do nothing to help themselves deserve exactly what happens to them. People that do nothing to help others, don't deserve any help.
These armstrongites that keep their heads in the sand and their asses exposed are tragic proof of what is wrong with these types of religions. They scurry about the world during their short time on this earth doing nothing to make the world a better place for their children, but instead, are looking forward to a catastrophic end, only to find themselves (in their mind) marginally higher in the food chain during the 'Kingdom' than they are now.
Reclusive religions are just like the Democratic and Republican parties. They keep running the same platform year after year after year...Because if they actually solved the problems they pretend to have an answer for or delivered on their promises, they'd be out of business.
A Christian absolutely should vote. Do you or do you not want a say in your destiny? If not, head on over to North Korea to avail yourselves of the benefits of totalitarianism.
If you start reading our Bible and asking yourself what does the Bible really say you will find that what the COG's have told us what the Bible says is not always there. Where does it say that you cannot participate in a nations government. Yet as pointed out there is example after example in the OT of government involvement!! Even Christ threatened the status of those in positions of government...it is one of the main reasons he was crucified. Yet we have those who have not really read the Bible, but who rely on what they have been told the Bible says. I belong and attend the COG's but I have become acutely aware that there are many area of our beliefs that were agenda driven. Frankly, when you begin to look at the reasons for the agendas it involves $$. Sad that the word of God is merchandised!! Yet the trunk is the truth and for that I am grateful because it has made my life much better than it would have been. Yes, I plan on voting this year for the first time in my life. I will stand for what I believe!! and like Christ and many others in the Bible I will not deny my beliefs any longer.
" We see in the Bible men like Paul being set apart from the womb.
What you see is Paul TELLING us he was called from the womb.
Of course, we only have Paul's belief that this was the case and no outside confirmation of this fact.
Paul claims his birth is like Jeremiah and Jesus. A Narcissist would.
Luke says Paul was called in a fall from (on?) his ass blinded by a light others did or didn't see and by a voice in his head that his fellows either heard or didn't depending on the rendition in Acts.
Remember, of the 24 times Paul is called an Apostle, 22 of them Paul calls himself one and the other 2 are Luke, his buddy's opinion too.
No one else in the NT calls him one.
A few sycophants close to HWA called him an Apostle. The rest of us complacently "agreed" as if it mattered. Knock yourself out if you want to be an Apostle.
Dave Pack announced himself one and gets the same compliance I guess but no one else calls him one that i know of. Bill Dankenbring is desperately trying, in the pages of the Journal to convince us he is an Apostle, no THE Apostle too.
The trick seems to be both in the Bible and in the COG Statusphere to just figure out a way to claim a title and then run with it. But you will notice how others don't care what a guy calls himself and the leaders tend to use the term about themselves more than anyone else who is subject to their office. The NT has very little, if any, member input recorded. Sounds familiar.
Dave, Ron, Gerald, Bill (the Newest COG Apostle, just ask him) and Joe, those reputed to be pillars in the church. They added nothing to me. Never should have, never will again.
Shoot...I was called from the womb too. My dad , whose first son, my brother, was severely handicapped , told me the day I called him to tell him I was going into the ministry, that he told God if he could have a normal son (don't say it!) He, God, could have him.
So when I called to tell him I was going to be a minister, it all came together for him and viola! I was called from the womb.
I expect some respect now from you guys and a contribution. Send it in.
It is interesting to note that at least 22% (as of this writing) of the forum posters HAVE VOTED to say that voting is wrong. And they wonder how we can think of them as hypocrites. Duh!
Hitler believed an advisory council was a superior form of government, and so did Herbert:
"Hitler believed that Germany's parliamentary government system (of 1918-1933) did not consist of a well-informed, intelligent group of people, nor did it attempt to make itself such. "The aim [of the modern democratic parliamentary system] rather is to bring together a group of nonentities who are dependent on others for their views and who can be all the more easily led..." (Mein Kampf 60). Conversely, Hitler believed that an ideal form of government does not make it hard for gifted people to succeed and reach high, influential positions (252). Likewise, he believed that a council which advises a leader on how to act, but doesn't actually vote on matters was superior to the democratic principle of 'majority rule' (252)."
FJS
"Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Rahab, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets. Not one of those people were Christians, and two of them participated intimately in the politics of Egypt. David participated in the politics of Israel, and had the majority of the people's hearts even while Saul was king."
These men may not have been democrats, but they were all politicians to one extent or the other.
"Scoffing carries a certain vindictive and mocking baggage."
And that's the only reason the CoGers hurl the word, Dennis, you answered your own question.
Oops. I meant "Paulus". ;-)
"You're dealing with people who woke up and realize one has to be basically unconscious to keep up the charade of "soon."
Interesting you should choose that phrasing, Paulus, I am in much sympathetic agreement with it.
"One man's scoffer is another's lifeline out of insanity and foolishness."
Well, we try our best, despite everything hurled at us. Eh what Paulus?? ;-)
"We see in the Bible men like Paul being set apart from the womb."
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that John who "leaped in the womb"? Paul was this guy.
Helps to keep the mythological figures portrayed in the allegories straight I find. A bit difficult since they all seem to blend together after a while --- but maybe that's the point.
"To say that we can or should do nothing and just wait for god to fix everything is childish. It is dumb. It avoids taking any responsibility for what happens in your community, large or small."
And it keeps those tithe dollars rolling in!!
"blah blah blah guy on a donkey blah blah blah I can translate Aramaic ain't I cool "The rest is history."
You mean allegory. Not history. But no worse politics are to be found, than the politics amongst the Levitical priesthood and those lay-Levites, in a Church of God congregation. The men clawed, scratched, and fought, for the privilege of not having to "give to gawd", and the women were good little SS operatives, reporting all suspect activity directly back to their Gestapo husbands.
Oh wait, that's not much of a democracy after all, now is it?
"Yes, I plan on voting this year for the first time in my life. I will stand for what I believe!! and like Christ and many others in the Bible I will not deny my beliefs any longer."
Good for you anonymous! Congratulations on taking the first most important step, and beginning to think for yourself.
"I expect some respect now from you guys and a contribution. Send it in."
Right! Would you like your snakeskin wallets by the bulk or simply by the dozen, Dennis? ;-)
"Hold on guys, did or did not United COG vote for their President and Vice President and so on?
You mean now it is ok to vote inside your church but not outside. Who is the hypocrite now!"
Learn more about the United COG voting process before making blind assumptions. The members did NOT vote.
To the person who claimed UCG votes for its leaders:
Now, now -- they don't vote in UCG. They ballot.
You understand the difference, don't you?
Well, don't you?
There are quite a few UCG members I know that vote in elections. Whatever the party line, there are plenty who did not feel the need to follow it to a "T."
Wow!
after one decides that it's a good idea to vote(I saw some arguments about that here) I suppose the next question is WHO to vote for.
I think there might be more than a few arguments about that, lol!
Here in the states I'll probably vote for Obama/Biden, since I find Palin to be an extremist kook and don't want to see her anywhere near the White House.
~Mel
Richard, would you vote for making female's leg-hair and arm-pit hair illegal?
If so there's a bearded hippie-lady I'd like you to meet. She'll hit you over the head with her big doobie.
Just teasing, Richard, no harm intended.
I had noticed past comments you'd made about hair, on women, that you indicated shouldn't be there.
IMO, election season calls out for some comic relief, at times.
~Mel
"A do nothing religion is a government's dream come true. While the fundamentalists are craving the Second Coming, the realists can take advantage of the moment."
That is not quite the case, the US government is dominated by Evangelicals and look at what Palin has done in Alaska!
These folks do not want a "do nothing" religion they want to CRAM their beliefs down the throats of everyone in the States.
They hire and promote their own, they fire those who disagree, and they bask in incompetence.
Yep... the religious right believes in voting; so they can control the courts, control government institutions and control your life.
The believe "Swift Boating" those who don't agree is morally acceptable.
And "Swift Boating" the Churches of God is part of the game...
Hi Mel!
Thanks for the offer of introduction. I’m sure the bearded hippie lady has a nice doobie, but I think I’ll pass on that one. You are absolutely right; you’ve got to keep a sense of humor. Some of the COGers that post here anonymously take themselves way too seriously. Would anybody accuse Ron Weinland or William Dankenbring of taking themselves way too seriously?
For those who are reading this thread and did not know what Mel was referring to, he is referring to the following excerpt from my unpublished essay, “My reflections on the Worldwide Church of God: 1972 in Prophecy – God’s Practical Joke?” that I have been publishing periodically here on AW in excerpts:
A Chosen People – A Peculiar People For Sure
Third, in retrospect, the Church seemed to attract some of the strangest and “fringe” members of society. To mention a few, I remember “the Rockefeller lady”. She believed Nelson Rockefeller controlled the whole world and was head of a secret organization known as “The Illuminati”. The belief was that this secret organization was trying to establish a new world government with Rockefeller as its head dictator. I remember a lady from West Virginia who took the Church’s ban against the use of cosmetics one step further. Apparently, she didn’t believe women should be attractive at all – so she didn’t believe in shaving her legs! Grossly protruding out from under her dresses were the hairiest legs you’ve ever seen rivaling any of the ape characters in the movie Planet of the Apes.
End of Excerpt
If Christ ignored decades of HWA and his minions preaching a false 1972 end time prophecy, do you really think Christ cares whether you walk into a voting booth? Didn’t Christ vote himself by not returning to earth on HWA’s false timetable? Oh, I guess that would be scoffing, but I meant it as an observation.
Richard
Purp said:
"We see in the Bible men like Paul being set apart from the womb."
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that John who "leaped in the womb"?"
Paul, as opposed to Luke's Damascus road event said,
Gal 1 : 15 But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so.."
Only three people in the Bible ever claimed to be called from the womb in the Bible. Jeremiah, Jesus and Paul :)
Annon: I agree...Government as Theocracy is a nightmare. You know, The Wonderful World Tomorrow under the COG heirarchy. A fellow just told me he learned at his church that if he gives his girlfriend love, she then gives him respect...great basis for a relationship. Ideas like that and a lot worse of course.
If you wish to perform a miracle in your Church with the leadership there are two voting styles that work only after they reach a certain tipping point.
1. Voting with your feet because gone are days when being put out of the true church was an emotional and spiritual death sentence or a way to get one to see the errors of their way.
2. Vote with your money because gone are the days when they can tell you that you have to tithe to be a member.
You'd be surprised how quickly God and Jesus inspire new truth to come to the surface.
A third way may also be to simply tell those who tell you how it all is to mind their own business.
Mel, Mel, Mel, I luv ya man. But you gotta be kiddin me!!
There is only one "extremist" in this election, and that is Barack Hussein Obama.
He is at least a Marxist (no question about that), and may even be a closet Moslem. There is alot of talk about cults on this website, but Islam is the world's largest and most dangerous Satanic cult.
Having held political office, thinking I could serve as a good example, I can tell you that voting is trying to make a decision based on lies. I knew people that ran political campaigns for governor and congress. Political campaigns have people who run them that do nothing but determine what to say to get their candidate elected, or their issue passed. "There is no truth, there is only perception" is their code. They have people whose full time jobs are "The care and feeding of the press". They lead the press to find out what they want them to find out and away from things that would hurt their campaign. I really have to laugh when I see people in heated political debates, debating which lie is true. The first casuality of any war is the truth. What is said in political campaigns has nothing to do with what will be done once the person is in office, or the issue is passed. The people in the churches of God are right not to get involved in the scam.
burgers said:
"Hold on guys, did or did not United COG vote for their President and Vice President and so on?
You mean now it is ok to vote inside your church but not outside. Who is the hypocrite now!"
Learn more about the United COG voting process before making blind assumptions. The members did NOT vote.
Anonymous did not say it was members who voted that was your blind assumption. Anonymous said the United COG voted. I will help Anonymous out on this one and make it plain and simply for you burgers. THEY VOTED. Here is a hint when you take off your rose colored glasses remove the scales as well.
And then Elijah goes and slaughters them at the water's edge.
Love the violence.
"They hire and promote their own, they fire those who disagree, and they bask in incompetence."
If you'll take a more objective look at it, you'll see that this applies to both the Right and the Left. It's politics.
Paul Ray
"These men may not have been democrats [sic], but they were all politicians to one extent or the other."
Why not include Republicans as well? Or are they not politicians?
Burgers retorted:
"Learn more about the United COG voting process before making blind assumptions. The members did NOT vote."
You might want to learn more about the UCG voting process yourself, Burgers. I relish the fact that you can't cut the mustard :-)
The facts are that the UCG members DO vote, but they are not the people you have been duped into believing they are. In the UCG the only members are the mythters. Are the rest of you do not have any legal standing or claim of being a part of that corporation. You are classed simply as contributors; i.e. a source of income to be used by the REAL members in any way they choose. You are providing them with a very comfortable, and for a few, luxurious, lifestyle. "Thank gawd for these idiots", is, I'm sure, a part of their daily prayers.
You might also want to see what the bible says about such men. Paul claimed he was not like them when he said in 2 Cor.2:17 that he didn't peddle the gospel for profit (like a cheap carnival huckster) (check out the original Greek) like so many others.
"Only three people in the Bible ever claimed to be called from the womb in the Bible. Jeremiah, Jesus and Paul :)"
Very good I stand corrected. :-)
Dunno where I picked up the "John leaped in the womb" from and I am entirely too lazy to waste any more of a beautiful Saturday hunting such extraneous information down. :-)
>>Dunno where I picked up the "John leaped in the womb" from.
You heard it from Luke 1:41: "And it happened when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb".
I am a member of a political party but only ever voted once. To be honest, I am too busy trying to determine the truth on religious matters than to get caught up in political debates.
Luke 1:41
And it happened when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb.
Ha! So my memory's only partially gone!
That's great.........
Anonymous said...
Hold on guys, did or did not United COG vote for their President and Vice President and so on?
Anonymous,
NO, NO, NO!!!
The UCG's so-called "ministers" do NOT vote. They ballot. Get it???
This is like some states that wanted lotteries and casinos, but gambling had been outlawed. Since gambling was illegal, they just called what they were doing gaming rather than gambling.
But wait. You ain't seen nothing yet. The so-called "ministers" and "members" in the UCG don't want to behave properly at all. To get around that little problem the UCG just calls good, evil; and calls evil, good.
Hello. I am an attendee at services at UCG and I am aware that people are being given aid all over the world by those who attend services at UCG. Clean water, blankets, wheelchairs, monetary aid for storm victims, schooling, cattle for reproducing in poor countries, just to name a FEW of the works being done by these brethren and all these glorify the Great God whom they serve. There are brethren in the other churches of God, too, that set fine examples.
"I am an attendee at services at UCG and I am aware that people are being given aid all over the world by those who attend services at UCG."
Two questions.
1) Who receives this aid- UCG members/potential members or the world at large?
2)Who finances this aid- UCG members via tithe or extra contributions sent in to UCG HQ?
Paul Ray
Anonymous said...
Hello. I am a [chair warmer] at UCG and I [thought I heard somewhere, sometime, from somebody (or maybe just another nobody)] that people are being given AID[S] all over the world by those who [warm chairs] at UCG. [Used] water, [one old] blanket, [and pre-warmed] chairs, just to name [the very, very] FEW works [supposedly] being done by these brethren [in lieu of actually obeying God's commandments.]
Anonymous Daydreamer,
Welcome to this blog. As long as you are careful to do all your posting here anonymously--so that the UCG does not figure out who you are--you might be able to continue to warm a chair in the UCG and imagine that somebody there at some time supposedly did something good somewhere.
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