On the other hand, I read and digested more 2012-related garbage that I would ever want to do again. For instance, I’m not sure if it will make the DVD, but we created a clip in which we toss book after book onto a table, each one professing to contain 2012-related wisdom, knowledge and prophecy.
It seems Wally is a skeptic, on 2012 if nothing else. No mention here, let alone endorsement, of fellow LCG member and eminent scholar Bob Thiel (Th.D) and his recent book 2012 and the Secret Sect though. Could it be that Bob's magnum opus was one of those books Wally tossed onto the table? "Wisdom, knowledge and prophecy" are a Thiel specialty! Wally mentions that he spent time with a Mayan scholar ("a Ph.D. in Mesoamerican cultures who was a Maya expert") who was also, it seems, a closet devotee of British Israelism.
In other research, he had also come to his own conclusions about the identity of the ten “lost tribes” of Israel, which — though done without contact with our church — correlated incredibly very well with exactly what we teach of them and of the United States and Great Britain in the Living Church of God — but that is a tale for another day. 
Of course Wally isn't about to identify this genius.
Wally is the LCG's expert on 2012, and has both written a feature article about it in the latest Tomorrow's World, and recorded a television program which will air when the 2012 movie is released just over a week from now. But wouldn't you have thought the TW editorial team would have been falling over themselves to get Bob Thiel to write this article, considering Bob not only holds the sole Th.D in the church, but has just written a full-length book on this subject?
Just as mysteriously, there is still no comment or clarification from Bob about the legitimacy of that very same Th.D which he recently added to his resume. As someone recently pointed out, Bob's sudden elevation to doctor of theology - assuming it was the real thing - would be a huge asset for the intellectually under-endowed sect. If however it's little more than a vanity degree that Bob picked up from a shonky operation in India, then Bob could well be the butt of an awful lot of humor at the Charlotte HQ.
43 comments:
Laughable though very predictable COG nonsense.
They privately hold in derision "worldly scholarship" - yet they attempt to make the not-so-subtle connection between someone with a PhD and his belief in British-Israelism!
Gavin's phrase "intellectually under-endowed sect" couldn't be any more clearer as to the impoverished level of “scholarship” of COG religion, whether the Living Church of Rod variety or any other of The Three Stooges-like groups out there vying for the coveted role of “God’s One and Only True Church.”
"On the other hand, I read and digested more 2012-related garbage that I would ever want to do again."
My first thought: So Wally read Bob's book did he?
So Spanky is still on the "10 to 15 years to In Our Lifetime, brethren" kick is he? That very same kick he was on in 1993 shortly before That Prophet Six-Pack started chugging the Kool-Aid? Oh almost SEVENTEEN years ago now ???
I for one am glad the only apocalypse I am interested in anymore is the one on the American TV show Supernatural.
"If however it's little more than a vanity degree that Bob picked up from a shonky operation in India, then Bob could well be the butt of an awful lot of humor at the Charlotte HQ."
LOL. From a shonky operation in India to a shonky operation in NC, it's all too much for me.
BTW, isn't that TW mag cover design a clone of old WCG mag (same fonts!). How original is that? A 40-year-old design faithfully preserved with a Flurry-like devotion to the the great 'End Time Elijah'
Bob was already the "butt", as you put it, of much ridicule in Charlotte. This latest bit of drama has not gone unnoticed by those in authority. The general feeling is that Bob has become more of a liability than an asset to the organization.
I notice that Bob Thiel has an incredible knack for being a total suck-up cult member.
Why else would he put himself so far out there, in his effort to totally suck up to, and be accepted by his cult leader?
The funny thing is, is that he makes a total fool of himself, and reveals his addled brain in his misguided efforts.
Let's make it easy:
I, Dr. Robert Thiel, received my TH.D from _____________________
on_____________________________
in_____________________________
which can be read at___________
on the topic of________________
For any questions, please write me at _______________________________
or contact the academic dept at ________________
Email_______________________
Phone_______________________
:)
"The general feeling is that Bob has become more of a liability than an asset to the organization."
Thiel is (at least according to AW hearsay) an ex-Catholic. He was never an asset to begin with.
'Son of hell' much?
Bob's Catholic upbringing is included on his "who is cogwriter" page, so no hearsay involved, although I don't see the relevance of this to the issue under discussion.
I thought Thiel's reference to 2012 was just a marketing ploy. I thought Bob Theil didn't believe in the 2012 apocalypse and he tried to argue for LCG's 'suggestion' that the end of 6000 years will occur in 2017.
In LCG's so-called 'Bible Study Course,' Lesson 2, Part 2, they claimed the end of 6000 years would occur in 2017.
As is always the case in Armstrongism they always think it's coming just around the corner.
"Bob's Catholic upbringing is included on his "who is cogwriter" page, so no hearsay involved"
Same Anon here. I wouldn't touch that website with a barge pole let alone read Thiel's garbage. I was just going by what others have posted here.
If Thiel really is that open about his background he is really setting himself up to be a church Pariah. Ex-Catholics were viewed lower than 'the belly of the snake' when I was in.
Breaking news! Breaking news! Breaking news!
Thanks to a tip from xHWA over at the Shadows blog, CGG's John Ritenbaugh may be teaching a modified version of Christian born-again nonsense. See here.
"The first point is that the born again doctrine all by itself is not a salvation issue. It is very, very helpful to understand it, but whether one believes this way or that about this particular doctrine is not anywhere near as important as issues such as faith and law."
Has Ritenbaugh been cribbing from Teddy Johnston's playbook or has he been drinking the Gracie Kool-Aid? Anyone know if Junior & Co have been making overtures to bring Ritenbaugh "back into the fold" (i.e., have they offered him the pension package, if he brings his sheeple back with him)? Can the heresy of trinitarianism be far behind, for the CGG?!
If I recall Meredith's prophetic surmisings correctly, I think he has set a "probable" date of 2017
and of course that is likely to change in the future. But Bob is a true believe in "the Rod of God" used by HWA.
"Anyone know if Junior & Co have been making overtures to bring Ritenbaugh "back into the fold" (i.e., have they offered him the pension package,"
More the question would be can a man who can give 20 weeks in a row of sermons on how to keep the Sabbath can change? On the other hand, maybe he burned himself out and is giving up.
As often the case...those who scream law usually end up needing much grace and forgiveness and those that scream grace, eventually find themselves needing law to control the natural human tendencies the other six days of the week.
Harold Camping, the president of "Family Radio" in Sacramento Ca. is beating both Bob and Rod to the punch with the end of the world date set at May 21st,2011. Family radio owns hundreds of radio stations in the U.S. How Harold reaches this conclusion is unkown to me (I don't want to know !} Some of you might recall Camping's book "1994". Of course it didn't happen then either.
"More the question would be can a man who can give 20 weeks in a row of sermons...."
Exhibit A: Church of God - Preparing for the Kingdom of God --- it's all Weinland, all the time, and has been so for virtually nine years now.
At least "Heeeeeeeere's Johnny!" breaks it up every now and again with one of his few chosen holy Levites. Who are talking out their 'asses' (Balaam much?) just as much as they ever did.
I'd be willing to bet this micro-splinter's about to hit the rails, hard, if Johnny-come-lately's pushing born-again doctrine.
Anyone have the over/under on whether Johnny's sheeple will jump ship for the Rod of God? Or will they trust their eternal salvation to the Council of Evil instead?
Spanky wouldn't know the end of this age if he tripped over it.
These fakirs are having a dollar bet both ways.
Cheers,
Jorgheinz
i think it's just a bunch of wishful thinking on the part of some here.
where does God say that complete understanding of the resurrection is a requirement for salvation? He doesn't, but He does say that obedience to His instruction is.
i don't know anything about mr. ritenbaugh, but the bits of his sermon that i read didn't raise any red flags.
Anon said:
"where does God say that complete understanding of the resurrection is a requirement for salvation? He doesn't, but He does say that obedience to His instruction is."
He doesn't. In fact, "HE" seems incapable to clearly communicating the when, how, where and who of it all as witnessed by all the various ways of reading the book and trying to figure out the formula.
"HE" might say that obedience is important, however, once again, what exactly is it that we are to obey. Which rules are old and which are current? Is it Graceman Paul or Lawman James? Is it Jewish offshoot or Gentile takeover? Is it John's community of believers, Marks, Matthew's, or Luke's?
Did it all literally happen or has the west turned an eastern allegory into a false reality?
Do we not follow other theologies because "HE" is a jealous god and "you shall not bring any other gods into my presense"?
Sabbath? Sunday? both since "one does this one does that... or neither. Is there "a keeping of the Sabbath for the people of God" or is it Paul's hatred for all things Jewish (Yes COG fans...Paul is not the friend you think he is)
To Pork or not to Pork? Ok, well that didn't come out right...
Is Jesus the Lamb of God or the Ham of God? Passover or Easter?
Do minister get paid for ministering (Apostle Paul) or not (Apostle Paul)
Is marriage good (Jesus) or just something needed to avoid fornication and better to skip it (Paul)
Do we Pray "Out Father..." (Jesus)
or do we not sweat it and let the Holy Spirit moan and peep for us when we don't know how we ought to pray? (Paul)
Do we? Don't we? Can we? Can't we? Will it? Won't it? Is that it? Is that not it? Heaven? Second Coming? Torment? Annihilation? (EWWW on either account) Baptism? Forget Baptism?
So simple. So clearly expounded to humans by the Diety.
It's never been that simple as witnessed by all the confusion, denominations, sects, cults, offshoot, splinters and slivers....
There never was ONE TRUE Church in history and the infighting began before the body cooled.
Why is Dr. Bob jumping all over Ritenbaugh, yet silent about LCG's own Mike Germano teaching the same things and more?
In fact, one could argue that Germano is worse than Ritenbaugh. At least Ritenbaugh seems to be teaching the same things, openly, to everyone. Germano has been found saying one thing to people he thinks aren't in LCG, and something else to people in LCG.
Maybe Dr. Bob has been silent because he is trying to suck up to Germano so he can get a teaching job at Living University? That degree from India might be just what Dr. Bob needs to qualify as an LU theology instructor. I hear there isn't much demand for theology instructors with degrees in naturopathy.
I know this is off-topic (or is it???), but Ron Weinland made an appearance on Yahoo News this morning.
Here is the link (maybe Gavin would want to make a new blog post?):
http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20091104/sc_livescience/10faileddoomsdaypredictions
The story was on the front page of yahoo, and was titled "Hype About 2012: 10 Failed Doomsday Predictions"
It lists several false profit$ including William Miller, and at the very end, our own beloved Ronnie Weinland:
"God's Church Ministry, Fall 2008
According to God's Church minister Ronald Weinland, the end times are upon us-- again. His 2006 book "2008: God's Final Witness" states that hundreds of millions of people will die, and by the end of 2006, "there will be a maximum time of two years remaining before the world will be plunged into the worst time of all human history. By the fall of 2008, the United States will have collapsed as a world power, and no longer exist as an independent nation." As the book notes, "Ronald Weinland places his reputation on the line as the end-time prophet of God." "
*gag* Economic crisis, swine flu, and European Union didn't phase me a bit; I watched one bloody trailer for the movie "2012", and I had full-on technicolour Wolverton nightmares.
What is this fsckery??
Aggie
Behold all the confusion and contradiction when folks abandon common sense rationality and replace it instead with the supernatural route of "revealed knowledge from God."
If only objective reality could be as simple, black & white and as plainly “obvious” as it is in the make-believe world Anonymous inhabits!
Too bad the COG's didn't write:
"The truth about 1972"
"The truth about 1975"
"The truth about 1979"
"The truth about 1983"
"The truth about 1988"
"The truth about 1994"
"The truth about 2000"
"The truth about 2001"
"The truth about 2011"
etc.
Seems that if others come up with the date, (2012) prophecy kooks and religions based on fairy tale speculations of "3-5,10 at the most, certainly no more than 20years..." they have to explain why that date CANNOT be right.
Pious conviction with marginal information is hurting a lot of sincere, yet misguided, people.
Like most current Church members, I don't get caught up in the prophecy of doom scenarios, especially when it comes to setting dates.
I actually take Jesus at his word when he said that no one would know the day or the hour. I frankly do not understand why some persist in what is actually a useless endeavor, and a waste of time and energy. Some of you would say money is the reason. I don't believe that. Many have been doing this for centuries, from William Miller to Pat Robertson, and I don't think money has motivated all of them. I think a lot of it is wishful thinking.
They want Christ's return so badly, and "knowing" when it is coming, makes it seem more real and urgent. I really can't blame them for wanting His return to come right away. When one looks around at this world, and sees all the insoluble problems that can only be solved by God's intervention and government, it is not a bad thing to yearn for an end to humanity's suffering.
My expectation: Christ will return when He is supposed to. God the Father will decide when the time is appropriate. Has that decision been made? I don't know. My guess is that it hasn't been.
Larry, Jesus told you when he would return when he said, "this generation". It is repeated all through the NT as "shortly", "quickly", "short work", "the time is short", "last days", "last time", "at hand" etc. You just don't choose to believe what they said.
Larry wrote:
"I think a lot of it is wishful thinking."
I very much agree with you here, Larry.
Now, just take it one tiny yet painful step further, and understand how "wishful thinking" not only has seriously mislead prophecy addicts in the past, will continue to do so out into the future, but also how it misleads and self-deludes YOU as well in the present - for "wishful thinking" (actually wishful NON-thinking) is the basis for all supernatural religions, including YOURS!
Larry said: "My expectation: Christ will return when He is supposed to."
Larry, go back and read your bible. Jesus lied. He didn't come back when he said he was going to.
He doesn't answer prayer like he says he would.
He's quite the underacheiver.
"this generation" = the generation that sees those things He was describing....
it's not the people He was speaking to at that time.
just thought i'd clear that up for you :-)
Corky,
"quickly","shortly" etc. are relative terms.
When I tell my wife that I need to make a "quick" trip to the university or the hospital, she would say that my definition of "quick" rarely coincides with hers.
We have a temporary existence and a short lifespan. Just because a couple thousand years seems like a long time to us, doesn't make it so. Christ specifically warned His disciples and followers that His Coming would seem to be delayed to the point that some would give up on it completely. He warned that it was a trap that one should not fall into.
Yes, it is difficult to maintain a sense of constant anticipation. But, we also have plenty of work to do, RIGHT NOW, to keep us occupied. The folks who are focusing on dates and prophecy are not paying attention to the present. And they should be.
larry said...
"Like most current Church members, I don't get caught up in the prophecy of doom scenarios, especially when it comes to setting dates".
If I understand correctly, I thought that the "mission" of most of the COG's was to carry on in "the work".
That is, continue following in the steps of Herbert Armstrong.
And that Herbert Armstrong said the whole reason for the raising up of the church in this "end-time" was to preach the gospel, and warn the world, as a witness, before the "end" comes.
And so whether the COG's set dates, or just say that the end is coming soon, the results are the same. That is, inexperienced and unknowing people will buy into it, and send in their money.
Anonymous said...
"this generation" = the generation that sees those things He was describing....
it's not the people He was speaking to at that time.
just thought i'd clear that up for you :-).
Read the context, he was talking about the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem, which did happen in 70AD. Another problem is the gospels were written after 70AD, making Jesus' prophecy a non-prophecy. In other words, it was made up after the fact.
It doesn't seem to dawn on members and minister alike that 100% of the predictions based on prophecy, so called, has been 100% wrong to date 100% of the time.
Those who don't wish to accept life on it's own terms and hope against hope that they really really do live in the end times are simply wrong.
The Bible is 1/3 mostly those really aren't prophecies or are failed in their fulfillment long ago prophecy. That's what the field of apologetics is for.
NO ONE can "predict" the next hour on this planet. Prophecy came along as a response to the terror humans feel in the uncertainty of their times or the future. It is not possible to predict anything.
Isaiah did not predict the virgin birth of Jesus Read the context.
None of Matthew's fulfillment texts on the prophecies of Jesus birth are prophecies fulfilled. He mined the OT for what he wanted to say (Midrash) and then made the OT mean what it was never meant to mean. No one had a clue about the how, when and where of Jesus birth circumstances, and a couple stories to counter "we were not born of fornication" were in order. But they were not prophecies.
The whole OT does not point to Jesus. Isaiah 53 was not originally about a future Jesus nor is the Book of Revelation a current yet to be fulfilled prophecy. It is a failed Jewish rant against Gentile Christians and the Romans, modeled after Daniel's 160's BC texts that were devised to encourage the Jews and Maccabeans against Rome back then.
Revelation failed on September 8th, 70 AD.
Dr. Thiel has taken it upon himself to sort it all out. I doubt he did it accurately. The COG's and many other denoms, churches and pastors get it wrong every day at the expense of a hopeful audience.
Larry chooses to believe Jesus on not knowing the day and the hour. So do I. I choose to believe Jesus on "see that you be not troubled..."
"This generation" = the generation that saw the fall of Jerusalem, and the coming of God in the eschatological fulfilment of the covenant. True, the outworking takes time - time being a dimension of mortals. But the task was accomplished in the cross and resurrection.
Heb 9:26 - Christ died at the end of the age.
Think how much time, money, effort and anguish could have been spared over the centuries if only believers didn't fall into the trap of those constantly touting the "end of the age".
Meanwhile....... over at CoGG...... it seems Ritenbaugh is saying that "Herbert Armstrong was wrong" on the born again doctrine. Wonders will never cease!!
My expectation: Christ will return when He is supposed to. God the Father will decide when the time is appropriate. Has that decision been made? I don't know. My guess is that it hasn't been.
I hope you're young enough and/or flexible enough for Plan B. That there is no decision to be made because there is no decider.
I agree that to come to that state of mind will, for a time, make you, "of all men most miserable" but the freedom out the other end is worth it.
"Corky,
"quickly","shortly" etc. are relative terms."
What about three days? Is three days, as in a man was dead for three days but rose from death, a relative term? Does it really mean three minutes, or three hours? Or literally three days?
Christians are such bloody hypocrites. When one part of the Bible becomes unbearably embarrassing, they cry, "it's not be taken literally!" Yet the rest, which is unbearably embarrassing to everyone else, somehow is to be taken literally.
I used to wonder how they make the distinction. Now I know- whatever part of the Bible is undeniably indefensible, this is not to be taken literally. Everything else is literal, from talking donkeys to dead men walking through walls. And they laugh and natural selection.
The Apostate Paul
Fear mongering is a amazing business to be in. Nobody ever demands their money back. You get to look holy to the community. The Federal Trade Commission will never investigate you for all those bogus books and sermons that didn't pan out.
Apocalyptic religion has a 100% failure rate.
Now if you divide the times of the gentiles by PI and subtract Joshua's long day.....
"Read the context, he was talking about the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem,...
among other things, some of which are happening, even to this day...
and the fact that some of the gospels were written down after AD70 certainly gives the non-beliver a way to justify his non-belief, and i have no problem with that.
"Meanwhile....... over at CoGG...... it seems Ritenbaugh is saying that "Herbert Armstrong was wrong" on the born again doctrine. Wonders will never cease!!"
Read the latest sermon transcript. Ritenbaugh is already back-pedaling. I know some of the people in CotGG. I can guarantee you even mentioning born-again doctrine must have raised a shitstorm for Johnny.
Bamboo_bends wrote:
"Fear mongering is a amazing business to be in. Nobody ever demands their money back. You get to look holy to the community. The Federal Trade Commission will never investigate you for all those bogus books and sermons that didn't pan out. Apocalyptic religion has a 100% failure rate."
Exactly!
An identical track record of consistent FAILURE in any other business would end you up in jail due to malpractice, deceptive advertising, breach of contract, etc.
That's why I keep saying that the only cure for all this supernatural nonsense is for folks to learn, and become somewhat fluent in, the basic skills of critical/analytical thinking.
I’ve debated many fundamentalists both on-line and in person, and experience has taught me that 99% of them can’t reason their way out of a paper bag. They just don’t have the mental tools to do so.
And yet most of them don’t know it! That’s why their “apologetics” are so often textbook examples of circular reasoning, appeals to authority, arguments from ignorance, and shot-through with many other logical fallacies, like intellectual Swiss-cheese.
For example, Larry claims to be a scientist with a doctorate from a "world class university" (though he, like Thiel, repeatedly refuses to provide any documentation of such academic credentials) – even though legitimately earning a doctorate requires critical thought and the ability to articulate those thoughts with some degree of clarity and specificity.
Yet Larry’s comments repeatedly demonstrate neither. And that’s why he is able to arrive at the most ridiculous conclusions that he so boldly proclaims in his “preach & run” comments.
And notice that he (and many others of his fellow fundamentalists) never seriously attempts to answer the many questions his comments trigger (using the “I’m just too busy in my scientific career to waste time with you people” excuse) with any degree of clarity or intelligibility – just his typically glib and shallow assertions, or condescending ad hominem remarks.
One of the problems I've always had with the COG's is that they tend to base their theology on their understanding of prophecy. This is a bad idea, because even the disciples didn't understand prophecy, even after walking with Jesus for 3.5 years - Jesus had to explain it to them after the crucifiction. My point is this: Love your neighbor (universal health care and other modes of social justice) and show love and devotion to that which is greater than self (God, Nature, the Universe, the Circle of Being etc). Don't worry about tomorrow, the evil of today is sufficient.
Speaker box wrote:
"Don't worry about tomorrow, the evil of today is sufficient."
Thanks, Speaker, but I prefer to focus on and savor the GOOD things of today, while PLANNING and taking the actions necessary for an even better tomorrow, as circumstances permit.
Multiple thousands of COG members have lived by the above philosophy, and where has it gotten them? In financial poverty and a dead-end life because they were taught to not plan for the future - where things like education, career training and dental repairs (to name but a few) were just unthinkingly swept aside because they were too busy ignoring tomorrow, fearfully focusing on the negatives of "this evil world" and sending in large portions of their paychecks to HWA's "one and only true" prophecy machine in the false hope that Christ would soon return and solve all their personal problems with one wave of His magic rod of iron.
Not a successful way to live, in my experience. I spent three decades of my adult life doing just this, and have found the path I now walk upon to be so much more constructive, fulfilling and useful both to myself and others.
Leonardo...I certainly agree with you on this. I just meant that the COG's focus on trying to figure out when God is coming back, prophecy and want not instead of getting involved in their community, helping others, easing suffering etc.
I apologize if I overreacted to your above comment, Speakerbox.
It's just that I get so fed up with people trying to defend the utterly indefensible.
The raging fundamentalists who blog here make their "preach & run" comments, ignore ALL serious counter-arguments to their assertions, have time and again shown themselves totally unable to engage in serious ongoing dialog, and yet they keep coming back again and again.
I really wonder why, because they rarely if ever make points that are worth considering, thought-provoking or anything of the sort - just the kind and quality of comments you'd expect from petulant little 3rd graders.
Sad actually, that grown adults who claim to be the "called and chosen" of an all-powerful supernatural Creator (let alone practicing scientists with PhD’s from world-class universities!), and yet they can’t even articulate their thoughts beyond that of an elementary schoolboy.
I wouldn’t have made it out of primary school if I couldn’t have expressed my thoughts better than these folks routinely do here. What a tragic indictment of either our educational systems, or the degrading impact fundamentalist belief has on the mind of man.
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