Email To The Editor, Page 19

Thanks for the update on you and Rodney. Although I didn't know some of these characters in Rodney's area, they sound like real doozeys. My wife and I were amazed at how much the cult grew in the twenty years 1979-1999. But an ex-AC buddy of mine once said: "John, there's always an attrition rate with Worldwide Church of God. They may lose many members, but they always seem to gain more."

However, I do have a question or two for you. And this goes to anyone who can provide an answer with some backup facts. Whatever happened to Stan (Darth Rader)? After 1979 and his humiliating interview with Mike Wallace, Stan Rader disappeared into the woodwork with a helluva lot of money. There are still so many unanswered questions here that an investigation would undoubtedly open a humungous can of repulsive worms.

Stan had a stranglehold on the Foundation (the AICF) throughout the late seventies and thus profited from it (and will still profit from its sale), but there's a lot more to all of this. In those days, he sold off all the festival sites and used a lease-back system for those Feast areas. It was cheaper. But where is the profit money from those sales? I understand there was also a site in South America that had been purchased, and Stan sold it. Wisconsin Dells was sold, so was Pocono, and so was the huge property in Estes Park, Colorado. The Bricket Wood campus was sold, and most of everything was sold off in Big Sandy. Whatever happened to the security money that was set aside for the bank that A.C. was planning to start? Money was adequate enough in those days that the "work" was planning to open its own bank to house all the loyal brethren's money. Stan also sold the Falcon and Citation jets (much to Ted's fury), and the Cessna 182. The money borrowed against the Pasadena campus just seemed to disappear. In those years with a lower membership, the annual income was about $70 million but the interest on "loans" was over $7 million each year. I saw the accounting sheet. Why loans? Weren't they getting enough money? Where did all this cash go?

Why would anyone borrow money (I understand it was about $250 million, with the Pasadena campus as collateral) with all this income? The tithes weren't down at the time, so why were all the properties sold off? Who got all the money? The brethren sure didn't.

When Al Portune was business manager, he always kept the Worldwide Church of God work in the black, but when Stan hit the limelight and replaced Al, the corporation was in the red inside two years. Things never recovered.

Also, in those days, Stan did a lot a traveling with his friends to some Middle East locales. These were Bi-sexual trysts, and according to Bricket Wood sources, Stan's friends preferred certain times of the year because the virginal "boy toys" in the area had the most desirable odors. Much business was done with those people over there, as the Arabs were buying lots of things in those days, but the details have always been hidden except from Stan and his cronies.

So, what happened to all that money? We're talking about a half BILLION dollars here maybe more.

If it could be proved that the management of this cult/corporation operated its business with intent to defraud the membership, then this could be MOST interesting. If this proof could be based on what happened to the money showing "intent" and showing that this cult was always operating with an

M.O. that never had anything to do with any type of church work, then this may form solid grounds for a massive class action suit against this group.

Regarding that homosexual pedophiliac roaming freely among the brethren of the Santa Rosa Fairfield, California church area. My friends said that they, as did many others, even visited him in prison while he was being "falsely persecuted" by the world for molesting children not in our church.

They were devastated when they learned that he was indeed guilty as accused of crimes identical to those for which he was being imprisoned. His victims within our church were many. When taking the situation to the local ministry, our congregations were promptly lambasted with sermons admonishing us not to engage in destructive gossip and harmful murmuring. This man still moves freely among the brethren of United, as United probably still maintains the strongest anti-gossip rules.

I would be interested to know if there is any law in California regarding criminal negligence on the part of the ministry. Some states have statutes regarding a convicted sex predator's contact with children. In some states, a convicted sex offender even talking to a minor is considered a "grooming" behavior.

Could a minister or church be held criminally negligent for allowing a known sex offender social contact with children in the congregation? It could be news somebody out there could use to finally put an end to this sneaky @#$%&*s tactics.

Would a minister's claim of "I simply refuse to believe gossip!" or "I had to treat him like everybody else because I believed he had truly repented" relieve a minister of his responsibility of due diligence in protecting the flock?

Can civil laws aimed at protecting children against predators be legally ignored by church goers?

HELLO THERE! I CAME UPON YOUR SITE WHILE SEARCHING FOR THE PLAIN TRUTH MAGAZINE AND THOUGHT I WOULD CHECK IT OUT. I LEFT THE Worldwide Church of God WHEN EVERYTHING STARTED BREAKING UP ABOUT FIVE OR SO YEARS AGO AND HAVE LOST CONTACT WITH EVERYONE I KNEW THERE. I WAS NOT RAISED IN THAT CHURCH BUT DISCOVERED IT WHEN I WAS IN MY EARLY THIRTIES. I WAS A CATHOLIC PRIOR TO BEING BAPTIZED INTO THE Worldwide Church of God BUT WAS NOT PRACTICING. I HAVE NOT VIEWED THE ENTIRE SITE I FOUND BUT I DID READ YOUR ENTRY "THE ABUSED BRIDE OF CHRIST DEFENSE". NOW I WON'T SAY THAT PHRASE THAT YOU DON'T WANT TO HEAR ANYMORE AND I AGREE WITH A LOT OF WHAT YOU SAID. IF YOU ARE STILL A CHRISTIAN AND BELIEVE THE BIBLE I JUST WANT TO SAY PLEASE DON'T BE BITTER ABOUT THE THINGS THAT HAVE HAPPENED. THE GOD YOU KNOW AND SERVE WOULD NOT WANT THAT. THOSE WHO HAVE WRONGED YOU WILL GET THEIR'S, OF THAT YOU CAN BE SURE! I FEEL A LOT OF ANGER AND NEGATIVITY COMING FROM THIS SITE AND WHILE I DON'T AGREE WITH ALL THAT WENT ON WHILE I WAS ATTENDING Worldwide Church of God, I WILL NOT SPEND MY ENERGY BAD-MOUTHING THE PERPETRATORS. INSTEAD, I WILL PRAY FOR THEM BECAUSE THAT IS THE ONLY THING THAT WILL HELP THEM AND AS A CHRISTIAN SURELY YOU WOULD WANT TO HELP THOSE WHO ARE LOST. ALSO, THE PRAYER WILL HELP YOU TO LIVE JOYOUSLY AND SOOTHE THE PAIN OF THOSE YEARS. I THINK THE ANGER CONTINUES TO IRRITATE THE WOUNDS OF THAT TIME...PRAYER WOULD BE A SOOTHING BALM. I HOPE YOU DON'T THINK I'M JUST A FOOLISH PERSON WHO HAS NO IDEA OF WHAT WENT ON OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. I JUST CARE FOR ANYONE WHO HAS BEEN MISTREATED AND DON'T WANT YOU TO CONTINUE TO SUFFER FROM IT. GOD HAS HELPED ME GET PAST A LOT OF PAIN IN MY LIFE BY PRAYING FOR MY ENEMIES. I WILL PRAY FOR YOU AND I HOPE THAT YOU WILL BE A PEACE ABOUT THIS SITUATION. I CERTAINLY HOPE THAT YOU STILL LOVE GOD BECAUSE IT ISN'T HIS FAULT IF SOMEONE USES THE GOSPEL IN THE WRONG WAY. HE STILL LOVES YOU AND WILL PUNISH THE GUILTY. TAKE CARE, AND GOD BLESS YOU!

Did the Worldwide Church of God really repent of false doctrine? I have checked out their website a year or so ago, and talked to some Worldwide Church of God pastors and to someone at the headquarters and they seem to have repented. I thought they were now accepted by many as being truly "Christian." What is your opinion about where they are NOW.

I have some special interest because I got out of a group (joined in 1992 -left two years ago after two years of meetings with leaders) that turned into what I consider an abusive mind-control authoritarian group. I also found out that most of the leaders had been secretly in an "Identity" cult for years before they formed this group and that they still hold to the basic doctrines of "Identity" (a modernized "British-Israelism" -like Worldwide Church of God ?used to believe). Also several leaders are fresh out of Worldwide Church of God, but before the "repentance." In your opinion, has Worldwide Church of God truly officially recanted the "British-Israelism" doctrine?

The Worldwide Church of God has not repented of false doctrine. They have just moved on to different false doctrine. This time mainstream Christianity false doctrine. It is better for business than nutty, non-mainstream Christianity doctrine; and the members and leaders don't have to be so embarrassed at their beliefs.

But they are no different than any other Christian Church, more or less, so, if you want the Mainstream Christianity type of spiritual burger franchise, the Worldwide Church of God is not much worse or better than any other one. Some of the condiments may be different but it is the same burger that they are trying to sell, now.

But how is false doctrine defined when none of it can be proved? I guess it is defined as "false" if it is not mainstream belief (But that cannot be proved either. It is deemed "right" because most Christians, or those that lead Christians, believe it. That does not make it right.).

Brethren in the Eugene and other areas scavenging through the dumpsters behind Safeway and other grocery stores looking for discarded and outdated food to feed to their hungry families. One Church of God mother, when asked if it bothered her to provide for her husband and children in this manner said, "I just jump right in there!" It was described as yet another "tithing blessing from the Lord."

I had mentioned about a class action against the W corp. of God before, but I realize it would take allot of money and pain. Then the other day the thought of having them nailed on corporate fraud. I don't care how those bastards get it I just don't want them living off of other people's blood. If a complaint can be the corporation, in a way that the full power of the state of California would be against them, maybe we could watch the whole evil empire be destroyed.

Its bad enough that they screwed us, but to have them get away with it, and continue it, is unbearable.

I read your article on Ed 's site and was very impressed with your clarity of thought. You give your readers a lot to think about in that article. Just wanted to encourage you to keep up the good work.

Hi Ed, I've been thinking a lot about what went on in Duluth for at least 10 years. Bill Gordon was a very sick man who did much damage to his group. I wonder if anyone from there is reading the Painful Truth and is just too scared to report on it? I was far reaching and the trauma lives on in many. Maybe in some place you could put in an inquiry on the subject. This man needs to be exposed for what he did. I sure hope he is on the "list" .

Also is attached a note from the discovery channel worth sharing for some who need more evidence on the bible.

There was no exodus from Egypt, Joshua didn't bring down the walls of Jericho, and Solomon's kingdom was a small, tribal dynasty, an Israeli archaeologist says in a new article.

Colleagues and critics accepted some of Zeev Herzog's evidence, but warned that by targeting the accuracy of the Bible the research undermines the national myths that are the basis of Jewish claims to the land of Israel.

Archaeological findings do not support and in many cases directly contradict Biblical stories describing the birth of the Jewish people, Herzog of Tel Aviv University writes in Thursday's Haaretz daily.

He reviews evidence now commonly accepted by most archaeologists showing that there was no exodus from Egypt at the time the Bible says Jews left Egypt en masse, and that Jericho fell in stages over an extended period and not in a single raid led by Joshua.

More controversially, Herzog argues that the seeds of the Jewish state are to be found in the 9th century B.C. when groups of shepherds who had settled in hilltops established two rival states, Judah and Israel.

Excavations of cities from the supposedly majestic time of Kings David and Solomon a century earlier, he says, reveal that the ''cities'' consisted of scattered buildings and the kingdoms were small, provincial dynasties that exercised no real claim over the land.

Herzog says Jerusalem, the majestic capital built by King David to rule over a large empire, was at best a small fiefdom.

Fellow archaeologist Amnon Ben-Tor of the rival Hebrew University, a top critic of Herzog and his post-modernist school of thought, says Herzog uses archaeology to satisfy a political agenda, namely debunking the legends upon which the Jewish state was founded.

Ben-Tor agrees that "there is a large measure of glorification in the Bible," but says that inscriptions and excavations from the 10th century B.C. show the ancient Hebrews had established a state ruled by David and Solomon that was substantial, if not magnificent.

Herzog's article addressed archaeological discoveries from the last few decades, when archaeologists in Israel broke away from seeking out physical evidence for Biblical events.

Liberal Education Minister Yossi Sarid, who recently stirred controversy by expunging from textbooks what he says are myths of modern Israeli history, says Herzog's work deserves consideration.

"If it's interesting and well-founded, I don't see why it shouldn't be presented in schools as an option," he tells Haaretz.

Try as I might, I can't seem to get connected to the newsgroup. Is there any way someone who has already downloaded it can zip it up and place it somewhere for download?

This newsgroup file is 11 megs. I have a new one that is only 1.5 megs. If anyone wants it, then email me and I will send it to you.

Here's a portion of my e-mail to my dear friend. Maybe there's someone else out there who would like to read it: Dearest friend,

A couple of things. First, never worry about any language that you use talking to me. The only thing I care about is that you're speaking from your heart. Now......about the Bible's standard of female conduct. Really, did the Bible ever specify what type of PERSONALITY a woman should have. It talks about diligence, thriftiness, stuff like that. But what about her personality. Nothing. The Bible was written by people in the Middle East thousands of years ago. so really, the Bible standard of female conduct would be that of the lifestyle of women residing in the Middle East thousands of years ago. Most women of the Bible lived in a time when their clitorises were removed with a knife as a young girl. They were not allowed to show their faces in public. They were only allowed outside the walls of their homes to fetch water, work in the field or to bring home food from the local bazaar. They were not allowed to speak with strangers except to give them water, and a whole host of other prohibitions. That is the Bible standard, and nobody in our church area used the Bible as a standard for female conduct.

No, Chuck Scott just didn't like me. Scott was a man with a strong military background, and the only thing he admired was strength. But I was weak. I was emotionally needy. I was alone. I was unsure. Having started attending church by myself at the age of thirteen I was an easy target for abuse as a whipping post because I had no one to defend me, ever. I was extremely awkward socially. I was clumsy. Imagine joining the church at the age of thirteen. I needed everything everybody else did, but had nothing to offer but my love and gratitude in return. I had no resources with which to obey God. I relied on people's kindness and generosity to get me to church, the feast of tabernacles, etc....and was subsequently viewed by many as a parasite. I wish someone had just said to me at the beginning, "if you have no parents or no money, or hope of seeing some in the immediate future please don't plan on fitting in with the members of God's one and only true church. You will be a drain on us, and frankly, we only have just so much oil." But good old Herbert Armstrong would keep saying, "if you are listening to this now, it means that you are being offered your ONLY CHANCE at salvation! What's it going to be? Life...or the LAKE of FIRE?" Now really, I have never been very afraid of going to the lake of fire, because I always figured it would all be over pretty quick. Painful, but quick. No, I just wanted to have the chance to meet God. I wanted to experience the privilege of looking at Him at least once. I wanted to be able to defy gravity. Have someone explain gravity, magnetism, light, science and all the cool stuff we see but know so little about. I wanted to see God's laboratory. I wanted to know how a living molecule is built. I wanted to watch Him do it. I wanted Him to teach me how. That's why I stuck around. But nobody knew that because almost nobody ever talked to me about anything except profoundly boring things like, "are you sure your house is COMPLETELY de-leavened? How about your car? Did you check your winter coat pockets?" .....barf!

I wouldn't have put up with so much except that I believed the ministry. Our ministers would say again and again that our prayers are only heard from people in God's One True Church. I put up with all their crap because I wanted to be able to talk to God. I didn't want my prayers to stop at my ceiling, as they always used to say. Since I was a tiny girl I had been praying to be able to understand why we were alive. When I was six years old and living in a foster home, I still couldn't read very well, so I tried to sleep with the Bible resting on my chest hoping that its words would sink in by themselves. But the book fell to my side during the night and I woke up just as unknowing as I had gone to bed. It made me very sad. How silly we are as little girls.

Yikes! I didn't realize it all still bothered me so much. Well, thanks again for being there.

Have you visited a Worldwide Church of God congregation lately? Legalism is gone. "Sheriff" pastors are gone. The chains of bondage are removed. No more "pay & pray". We're an open door church, with community oriented local congregations that are encouraged to think for themselves and structure their worship as it best suits them. I must add that WORSHIP is the operative. I genuinely sympathize with your anger and frustration but much more so pray that you may be able to remove this root of bitterness from your life. It's over. Let it go. "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven." Luke 6:37

I invite you or anyone else to respond to my . Explain to me how your church can represent Jesus and not act as He would by fixing all the things (people) that it has broken. See my "What Would Jesus Do?" page.

Regarding my "root of bitterness": faq.htm#7 Hehehehehe............. You are so brainwashed I feel sorry for you. Do you really think that calling me bitter bothers me one little bit?

Seems to me that you are in deep doo doo here since you are "judging" me and "condemning" me by labeling me as "bitter" and we all know that bitter people are certainly lost and condemned.

And it isn't over, believe me. As long as there are people out there that need to know the truth about this religion con-game, and specifically the Worldwide Church of God and its daughter churches, I will be here for them.

A better friend of Christ because I would do what He would do, and you and your beloved church would not,
Ed

Have thaught about lawsuit. i talked it over with an ex-minister and my lawyer. would be interested in joining a class action.

Do you do all this art yourself? This is incredibly good! Every piece of art fits exactly with the article it accompanies. Don't see how you could get that from a clip-art collection. But if you do it yourself, you do it really quick. I'm impressed!

A special thanks for the continuance of those neat graphics. At one time, I thought you got them from some massive database, but now I can see (like you said) that they're custom. Do you do this for a living? Are you a commercial artist? Designer? Whatever . . . ?

By now, you've got (name withheld)'s note, and I understand why she won't have her name on the web. There are apparently too many nut cases in that area. The corrupt, religious businessmen are not so physically dangerous (like wasting people, etc.) but the zealots know no bounds. These guys (like Meredith) are the most dangerous.

I hear that Meredith lives in Rancho Bernardo, an exclusive community just north of San Diego. My wife and I knew the area, having lived in San Diego for eight years. He bought his mansion for around $400,000. It's obviously worth more now, plus any lavish additions that he's invested the tithepayer's money in. We could hardly even afford to drive through there. It's THAT uppity. Very, very private. This is a really snooty and wealthy, ritzy community, but then again . . . God loves quality.

Keep up the graphics. Personally, I think that's one big reason why your website has such a good readership. The graphics are attractive from the sales approach, and catch the readers' attention. They sparkle, and the accompanying articles will naturally catch peoples' eyes.

As far as the graphics on the page, if it looks too good, then I didn't do it. I have a nice clipart collection and will use that quite a bit and just combine different graphics or add text to them to make the point. I made the suicide teardrop, which some mistake for a drop of water, and a lot of others. I do all the text type of creations using different fonts and manipulating them in Illustrator, Corel, and Photoshop. I am faced with making a graphic that is of very limited size, since download time is a constant problem, so I can't put a lot into the graphic or make it as nice as I would like or am able to at times. I am in the computer graphic arts at work; computer pre-press.

I do try to grab the attention. Sometimes coming up with a graphic, when the title is not exactly exciting, such as Reference Books or Growth, is a real challenge. ;-)

I do not blame (name withheld) for not wanting her name on something. She has her reasons. I need people who WANT their names on what they say. They are hard to find. God will provide.

I said that to a friend of mine whose husband was a local elder in the church, after I had asked her husband to sign the Apology Page. He didn't see that he had anything to apologize for. You see, it is always the other guy, not me. So I told her that God would provide and just a few days later you emailed me. So God does provide. Just don't know how, when, where or why most times.

The Following is a series of private email correspondence between Ken P and an un-named person(IBGCL). Ken thought some might be interested. I didn't do any spell checking. This is also a little example of what you can get yourself into when you join email lists or newsgroups and why I will not provide such a forum for the idiots. Ed

Now as much as you would like to believe that you are my mentor your just plain wrong your not my mentor. As for being a Armstrong defender i am not i am just trying to say that you are weake in the head to let a man lead you as he seemed to have done to you. It is sad to see anyone spend so much time towards degrading another human as you seem to do. You blame HWA for all your hang ups in life because your unable to think for your self instead you let this personality do your thinking for you. I might not even believe in God as far as you know but i

whouldn't want some degrading a family memeber as you do towards this HWA. He was just a man who was known in public and he had his way of looking at things that you just found unable to agree with and thus you become a person of hate because of the fact that you don't agree with his mind set. No my friend you see to be of more of a mind of mush because you lust to degrade someone whom you don't agree with. That is rather simple minded. I am very sorry i said things to that was wrongly taken from you. I am sure you are a good person but you seem to be in need of mental help over your bad hang ups. O,the sad little mind. You good friend that disagree's with you I wish you all the best for change

The Worldwide Church of God and it's offshoots are built on the foundation of HWA. He is their income, and without him, there is no profit in the religion that they sell to the general public! You say I am weak in the head, that was true when I let the religious Mafia tell me what to think, what to believe, and the threats of Hell fire that were designed to keep you in the cult. Brain washing is serious and destructive to the human being, causing psychological problem's that can, (and many times does,) last for the entire life span of the person who has gone thru such a experience, not to mention those who decide for the option of suicide that ends it all! The general public must know what these cult's sell,(as truth) so that others will not be led astray.

The life of the living is one hell of a lot more important than the pockets of religious pimps! As far as making fun of the whole situation of herbie, it is a form of healing. The same has been done to political leaders that were destructive to the countries that they led such as taunting, degrading poems, and is a form of redirecting minds to focus on the future and the not on the past. When the mind is refocused on the future the past becomes just that, the past. The healing has begun!

You wrote that my mind must be made of mush and that I was degrading to herbie. Why did you degrade me by calling me "weak in the head, and a mind of mush" and "simple minded, and O' sad little mind" and in the same sentence, condemn others for degrading armstrong? You sir are a hypocrite!! You also wrote that I was in need of mental help! I will reply that many ex-culties need mental assistance, and there is no shame in that!!!

You care more for a dead child molester than for living, breathing, and suffering human beings!!! You never had the honesty to admit that you are a cog'er or deny that you ever were one! Love in your bible is for the living, yet not a helpful word of compassion in order to support your fellow man!!

The ministers that came to your house to preach armstrong before you were allowed to attend services never told you herbie was a child molester, or about the great financial fraud that was perpetrated on the members. That is so irresponsible, not to mention fraudulent! They misled people about the truth, and ignored it themselves! It is only later that you find this out, and then you get really pissed!!

Looking at your statements in the e-mail you sent, I can tell that your knowledge of brainwashing is nil. I would recommend that you read some books on the subject. I would also counsel you to take a English class that may educate in the art of communication, such as spelling. Your letter was difficult to read!

To hell with being nice i could give a shit less about HWA and his simple minded brain washed jurks like yourself. You call him a child molester how do you know for sure You nor I know for sure,we go by words of men on that issue i personaly haven't been given any real proof other than what you claim. I am sorry you missunderstood my name calling towards you. For sure i have never let men tell me how to be and haven't allowed them tell me how to believe. If i believed in the Bible I'd probly would have belived a lot of HWA preached. I would have the mind to think for myself and the day i was crossed by one of these preachers he'd find out real quick that i had a demon from hell in me. Sorry for any miss spellings you may have a problem but it's like this i don't give a damn it you like it or not your the one who makes a life out of attacking people with words. Even if i was or not a "christian" i'd find it hard to call myself human if that is all i focused on. As for me being a hypocrite so what,i thought i'd give you a little of your own medicine. Your the poor sole that has to have a old man tell you how to act,live,shit and anything else he has in mind for you. You ever think to just walk away and forget about him if you had a problem with him? Look, I am sorry you such a bad hang up on this HWA. I am sorry you aren't able or weren't able to think for yourself.

Never will I ever allow the religious pimps that make a living off herbie, rest! I see that you are still name calling! You must be a Democrat! Herbies sexual perversion came up I believe in herbies divorce proceedings as a legal means to get him to back down. Also the Gerringer letter to the Worldwide Church of God corporate board revealed herbies sexual fetish with masturbation, and incest! Many books have been published on this sick man that document these facts.

You seem very proud to have never let man tell you what to think or believe. Do you pay taxes? Do you obey the law? Perhaps you prefer such personal isolation such as living outside the fringes of society, say a cave, or a tent off in some forest! All mankind is taught how to think from the early years of life. Advertising is such a method of brainwashing, politics, love of Country, morals, and of course Religion!!

This will be the last correspondence that I will send out to you. Your next e-mail will go directly to the waste bin. I will never lay my eyes on such profane hatred of yours again!!! I believe that you are the one who needs to get a life. Your statements that if "one of preachers crossed you, he would find out real quick that you had a demon from hell in you" shows me you most certainly are a bible believer that has falling under the influence of the Religious institutions of this Country!!

You admit you're a hypocrite which shows me your mind is unable to balance a perspective from reality to the world of honest self evaluation on how, or what you stand for as a citizen or a member of the Human Race!! People like you contribute nothing to the Country but are among the takers and haters!! Are you by any means a raciest also?

Women beware, just because he says that he wants to talk and you met him on Ed's site doesn't mean that he will treat you like a person.

The sad thing is I have heard from a number of men in response to things I have put on the web site; so far sooner or later I have found that being free thinking is not what these "men" want. There are few exceptions, if you hear from Ed (his web site), John (former minister); they will treat you as a thinking person not a gender.

Hope everything is going well for you. I appreciate your continued diligence on the PT site. It seems hard to believe how much can change in a relatively short period of time. My perspective has changed so much that many of the troubling issues I had a year ago seem like no big deal to me now. I know that your web site played a big part in starting the process of healing from the scars of growing up in the church. I hope that others may be able to break free from the past also.

Greetings from our new home in TX. Just a note to update you on what is happening with the book project. At present, there are 50 contributors who have made some sort of commitment to telling their story. I have received a few manuscripts from some of you, and I will begin editing those this week. The stories are heart-wrenching in some cases; it is a very emotional project for me. But with each story that I read, I make a more firm commitment to getting these in some sort of format.

*With the death of John Trechak, a resource has been lost. I was deeply saddened by his death; John's work was what spearheaded my desire to do this project. Although I never met him in person, his work changed my life forever. For those of you who did not have the pleasure of knowing John, he was the creator and editor of the Ambassador Report and risked a great deal personally to investigate the Worldwide Church of God.

*I encourage each of you to check out Ed's latest page documenting the suicides of Worldwide Church of God members. I was very hurt to know that there were so many; it seems that these things were somewhat swept under the carpet. I lost two friends to suicide -both were sons of Worldwide Church of God deacons/elders, and both were marked by the ministerial staff as being "no good" or "demon-influenced." This book will be written in memory of all of those who lost their lives because of this organization and those who gave of themselves to see that the organization was accountable for some of the horrific acts performed.

*Ron and I have made a successful move from St. Louis, MO to Austin, TX. The research library at the University of Texas will be invaluable to this research; I will be digging through a lot of legal texts at the law library which may uncover some interesting material as to the Worldwide Church of God's legal problems here in the state of Texas. It is rumored that there are a few. I am also planning a trip to Big Sandy in the spring to talk with locals about the Worldwide Church of God and its influence on their community. Should be interesting primary research.

*As of 11/13, we will be in our new home. I am going to try to set aside some time each day to work on this project, but do not be surprised if it is difficult for me to get back with you. While we are here in Austin, our stuff sits on a truck in St. Louis, waiting to be shipped and unpacked. It may take some time for me to reach you, but I will talk with you!

*If you have a manuscript and you have not sent it, please send it to me. You can e-mail it to this address or snail-mail it to:

Some of you have requested that we talk via telephone. If you have, please send me a telephone number, and I will contact you later this month. I am willing to interview you and put the results of the interview into written form. Obviously, you would be the final editor of any material received.

*If you have ideas about how the book should be formatted, please send them along. Later this month, I will attempt to give you some idea as to the structure of this book. As I come up with a format, I am keeping in mind my target audience. They are:

1) Current Worldwide Church of God members and their families
2) Ex-members (the 40,000)
3) Mainstream evangelicals who are wondering whether or not the Worldwide Church of God should lose its cult classification.

I want to give evidence as to why the Worldwide Church of God is still a cult. I also want to provide stories from people that reflect what I am purporting. And I want to provide some sort of response to Tkach's "Transformed by Truth" book. Most importantly, I want to give each of you a medium where you can tell your story and start on a road to healing.

Please write to me soon. The move has been hectic, but I am ready to begin work on this much overdue project.

Look forward to hearing from each of you. While I haven't been able to communicate with you, you are in my thoughts!

I don't know if you can add someone to the disfellowship list that bailed out real early, but if you can, please add Paul Royer to the list. Here's a piece of what it was like for some of us who were almost literally eaten alive in the world wide church of god. I call this piece, My Date with the Dog.

They all can be added and they can also be removed if the repent properly by getting out of the religion business. This is the only proper repentance for these abusers.

Adam attended the Little Rock, AR church. April and Shane (siblings) attended the Mountain Home (AR), Tyler (TX), Sedro Wooley (WA) churches, among others, over a period of about 18 to 20 years. We're fourth generation (they got great grandma, too) Worldwide Church of Goders and have somehow lived to tell the tales.

I just read Phil Patterson's e-mail and I am fuming. "No more pay and pray"? Who in the blessed world does he think that he is kidding? If it is ok with her, would you PLEASE post that rotten Thanksgiving co-worker letter that Karen sent to you the other day? Let everyone on the site see for themselves how this bunch of bloodsuckers is still manipulating people and begging for money. CHANGED, MY ASS!

You made the comment that you need people who WANT their names on what they say. Well, feel free to print the e-mail that I sent to you and Karen after I read that lovely piece of trash telling us how wonderful the Puritans were and how God is so good to us for not giving us "what we deserve". Don't delete one damn word. People who continue to fall for the religion pimps' line of nonsense persist in labeling all of us who do not buy their garbage as "bitter." Let us speak for a moment about these loyal little Herbie-worshipping Polyannas. Bear in mind here that I was once one of them, and I do understand how they have been used and brainwashed, even if they have not yet figured it out. I have deep pity and sympathy for those who have legitimately been duped. Some members of my own family are still among them, as are people whom I grew up with and still dearly love. I love my sisters, nieces and nephews very deeply, even though I will never agree with them.

The Worldwide Church of God loyalists who surreptitiously read the articles on the Painful Truth Website take great delight in labeling all those who no longer buy into the myth as bitter, angry misfits who just want to take a jab at Herbert W. Armstrong. But consider this--there is ample evidence that this little Hitler and his minions have ruined people's lives. Go back and take a look at the suicide page again. Now let this fully sink in: PEOPLE HAVE DIED AS A DIRECT RESULT OF THE PSYCHOLOGICAL ABUSE AND MANIPULATION OF THE WORLDWIDE CHURCH OF GOD AND ITS REPRESENTATIVES! Their precious lives have been forever lost. Some of these deaths were the result of voluntary refusal of adequate medical care because of the Worldwide Church of God healing doctrine. Others were caused by the intense emotional pain of the constant criticism and undermining of self-esteem by the very "ministers" who were supposed to be caring for their flocks or by the terrible fear of suffering untold horrors in the "great tribulation". I myself have received a couple of e-mails from people who were suicidal before they read some of the material on your Website. I'm sure that is only the tip of the iceberg.

You, Ed, and John O. and Bruce Renehan and all the other people who have had the courage to put their names right out there in the open for all to see have endured insults, abuse, and outright threats from loyal Herbie-ites. Is this because you are so nasty that you just have to go after a poor innocent old man who is dead? NO!!! You and everyone else who contributes to the continually-growing body of work that is the Painful Truth do this because YOU CARE ABOUT THE PAIN AND SUFFERING OF YOUR FELLOW HUMAN BEINGS! You care a good deal more than the miserable vampiric money-grabbing liars who set themselves up as ministers and presume to represent God, judging and abusing the innocent in an attempt to line their own pockets and inflate their grandiose egos. It is about time that someone stood up and looked these pimps in the eyes and shouted "Enough!" It is about time that someone told all of those poor unfortunates who have been deceived simply because they wanted something to believe in that there are those who genuinely love them and care about their well-being, and they are not to be found inside the Worldwide Church of God and its offshoots, but outside it.

This is the "root cause" of all the work we are all doing here--not bitterness, but concern for other people. That is why I will continue to jump up and down and shout and deplore this evil misuse of innocent people as long as I have breath in my pudgy little body. And if anyone refuses to associate with me because of my opinion on this matter or wishes to threaten, abuse, or throw vitriol at me, who cares? I am fully convinced that this Website has literally saved lives, and what is anyone's displeasure compared to the loss of even a single precious human life?

Please, Ed, do send me your copy of the Garner Ted film. Halloween is past, but I always enjoy a good monster movie. As the teletubbies say, "BIIIIIIIIIIIG HUG!"

Thanks for your spirited defense. I need a little support now and then too. I posted the letter on the Email page 18 along with your response to it. I guess sometimes when I post a new page, some people do not go back to look at the previous one to see if they missed anything. The pages just get too big and I have to make a new one.

I'll be sending the movie along but remember that it is 1.5 megs and will take time to download.

Thanks for sharing this with me. I left Worldwide C of G in 1974. The scandals seemed unbelievable then, but to think this fraud is still doing stuff like this in the 90s and claiming to be a man of religion is shocking.

Thanks for the tip on how to get "Quicktime". I was able to install it and view the video clip.

Thank you once again for your reply. I hope that I haven't stolen too much time from you in recent weeks to do more useful things with your family.

If it weren't for the current "down-time" period I'm experiencing due to having to be in Texas (yuck) while my husband does some consulting work, I would be working hard somewhere in Manhattan.

I haven't made time to focus on the Worldwide Church of God follow-up for almost 10 years. I wish I had seen the PT Website before this time (as opposed to just recently). I wish I could have benefited from it sooner. That such a Website exists has given me a new peace of mind in that several people have devoted significant amounts of time in trying to help people who were mentally scarred from the Worldwide Church of God. It's comforting to know that not all people who were in the Worldwide Church of God shirk their responsibility of trying to make things right for those who have suffered. Your efforts are very unselfish.

I think people benefit from the PT Website in more ways that are immediately obvious. I know that you hope to dissuade people from having any affiliation with Worldwide Church of God-like entities through exposing the Worldwide Church of God for what it is and was. But there are also many people out there who have been damaged by such groups, know better than to return to them, but still feel some type of emptiness and void after having abandoned organized religion. I fall into this category. Until recently, I just hadn't placed a priority on trying to come to terms with it. Writing about experiences in the Worldwide Church of God and sharing it with those who have also suffered is extremely therapeutic. But it is also, more importantly, refreshing to know that there are some people who care what happens afterwards. The emptiness somehow isn't as dark and lonely after realizing this.

I plan to begin work on my piece tomorrow. It will probably take a week or two to complete. But I already feel great relief getting these things off my chest and out into the open. I will want to have my name included in the piece, when finished, for all to see.

Thanks again for your responses. They have been pleasurable to read. I hope I can consider you a friend for life (and any afterlife than may ensue :-)).

I wanted to ask if you had heard anything about the future of AR. I had written to AR to request a back issue. I just received the money today & assumed AR is out of business. I checked the AR index, but nothing appears to be updated.

After being a member of a religious cult for 23 years, it has taken me 6 years of being "out" to understand just what happened, how, and why. I have always needed to understand my life's problems, so that I could improve the circumstances. My Worldwide Church experience has truly changed me forever. I am free to grow and experience life, yet I still search for some like minded people to share with; to find some meaningfulness, a "place" to fit in without joining a group. I guess you could say that I am a part of a group of many who have left wwc, and are on a new path of discovery. This new found freedom is great, yet, also very isolating. I find myself on a journey of enrichment, yet always on guard against being "suckered" into another Group mind think". Each one has an agenda, and bias. I too have my own. That is why I tell people that I respect their right to choose their beliefs, and I want the same respect. We have no right to expect any one to change to our way of thinking. It is good however to listen to others and learn from them.

I have to say that Ed and the Painful Truth site have given me the place to feel a part of something important again. What is ironic is that I really wanted to move on and forget the whole mess. However that was never to be. The experience is woven into my being, and it has finally come to me that I have become a better, enriched both emotionally and spiritually. Because I love learning, and challenging myself, my husband gave me this computer. (He may someday regret that ;) It has become a whole New World full of many interesting, caring intelligent people. I still feel isolated, yet when I share, I am given equal opportunity, and respect. Since John Trechak is gone I believe Ed will fill the void for people learning the truth. As has been said, "When the student is ready, the Teacher will appear." For the many who seek the truth on their journey, I thank Ed for making this site available. Also I want to thank Bruce Renehan, John B., John O. and Ralph whose articles have shone me that others have traveled down the same path and came to some same conclusions. All have given me much to think on and question.

One thing I need to caution all of us when we write. That is to acknowledge that these are our own opinions and perceptions, lest we begin to become another cult. As much as I like John O's articles, they begin to sound like "doctrine". They are more personal experiences, opinions, learned information, than facts. Perhaps I'm still in the "cult" paradigm, and see the signs appearing again. So beware folks, not to be deceived or misled with any "new truth". Be informed, then choose to think for yourself before adopting another's beliefs.

I agree with you and I think John O. would too. Don't follow any man. Nobody has the answers to life's questions.

John has some very interesting ideas that we can all think about but it is all deduction and theory. He may be closer to "the truth" than others but we won't know in this life. And, since it surely doesn't matter to God, otherwise He would reveal it to us, it must not matter to us either. It isn't worth the trouble of worrying about something you have no way of controlling or avoiding.

You really do have a good perspective and understanding. May the readers take my note in the right spirit.

And thanks for letting me reply. I just love it when people think for themselves. This opens their minds, and God flows in. Joanne is thinking when she says she's cautious that anything I say may sound like doctrine. That's good. Coming out of cults, we need to be ultra cautious.

The reason I'm not into "doctrine" is because anything we say can change. There's always the tweaking, the modification, or the outright replacement of ideas. That's the one reason I keep hammering out that people "thing for themselves." Keep researching. That not the way "doctrine" works. That's just common sense. If we did that, we'd never have needed the cult teachers. I want to see people free. And to do that, people must eventually become their OWN teachers.

One day, who knows when, John will be gone. He'll move on to find the real "plain truth." But anyone who's reading and proving may still be here. Now it's up to them. If I can prod people to eventually become their own best teachers, then maybe that's all I have to do.

One thing I have learned, however, and that is . . . the more I learn, the less cultic I think.

Incidentally, I had a "revelation" about a graphic for the "God" article. What about a burst of circular, golden beams of heavenly light with Herbie's angelic face in the middle?

The UPDATED sign link on the suicide site is linked to Bruce Renehan's site with no mention of anything in the suicide area.

Yesterday, I looked over John Trechak's site of the multiple AR's. If there was any doubt in anyone's mind that Worldwide Church of God and ALL of its poisoned offspring are really NOTHING MORE than secular, money making organizations (producing NO product), then this site is an eye-opener. The fruits here are horrific. I printed 15 pages of this site, all the way to the last AR#71. After reading through all of this reporting, one cannot help but feel "unclean," at the prospect of having once believed, supported, and having been an integral part of such a demented organization.

These people are worse than ANY secular corporation. A normal corporation couldn't stay in business that long to do so much damage. They couldn't get away with any of it without getting arrested permanently. But churches get away with it. Really, Ed, some serious legislation is necessary here, because this crap goes on continually, and all over.

So if anyone has any doubts that Worldwide Church of God "wasn't so bad," (like some have in the past), then let them read the only the headlines of all those AR's to date. Those fruits must convince anyone who has, "ears to hear."

My funny about Herbie's face in the middle of light beams as a "God" graphic has some background. Years ago, Gerald Waterhouse (diarrhea mouth) was talking about God and what He (naturally) looked like. I'm paraphrasing, but it's the best that I can remember of his quote.

"God picked a man today (HWA) after His own heart to do the work in these end times. And it's only fitting that God chose a man who looked much like Himself."

In 1980, when we were still in the Seventh Day church, I had personal reason to visit Australia. For CG7 reasons, I visited Melbourne and met with the CG7 minister, Bruce Battye. Bruce was ex-Worldwide Church of God like us. During the night that I stayed over with him, he played me the opening snippet from a tape of a Gerald Waterhouse sermon. And then he told me a story. Bruce had a friend who was a practicing psychiatrist. This friend had earlier listened to less than five minutes of that tape, when he gave his professional opinion to Bruce about the character of Waterhouse. "This man is undoubtedly psychotic," he told Bruce.

I was watching 60 minutes tonight where there was a guy that was indicted for selling fake lottery tickets. What in the world is the difference between what he is doing and what religions are doing? They do the same thing but religion does it legally. This has got to be the greatest con-game ever.

The guy made a net profit of $200 million after he made a plea bargain and served 6 months in jail and paid a $12.3 Million fine. Now, if he would have just started a church and screwed these people, he would not have served any time or paid any fine.

But he hasn't gotten his profits yet. A company called Interclaim has stepped into the picture. This is an international company. "Interclaim" is a company that filed suit against the guy after the government basically failed all the victims and may be successful where the government was not.

They froze the guy's assets and took him to court. They were ruled against for some reason or other but from what I heard, the Judge invited them to appeal. They are appealing and the assets are still frozen.

With all the lawsuits going around with cities suing paint companies for something that they did 40 years ago, putting lead in paint, which they stopped doing as soon as their was proof that it was harmful; and gun manufacturers being sued because their legally manufactured guns are used in illegal ways; and cigarette companies, which sell legal cigarettes which are subsidized by the federal government, being sued by states because nobody that smoked in the last 40 years or so knew that cigarette smoking is dangerous to their health; why hasn't one attorney, that I know of, volunteered to take on a class action suit against the Worldwide Church of God? Is it just that nobody is asking attorneys if they want the case or that the attorneys are turning the people down? I know that there are a couple of suits being considered but they are not class actions.

There has never been a time so ripe for the success of such a suit in the history of the U.S.A. I would hate to be classed among these wacko "sewers" but if I could get my piece of Worldwide Church of God, which sorely needs to be taught a lesson, you could call me anything you wanted; and most do anyhow.

You're right about this being a perfect time for nailing Worldwide Church of God, but I think lawyers (who are in business for money only) will shY away from these cases as they are unpopular. Religion has always been a "sacred" subject for most, and no matter how crooked they are, people still feel these corrupt religions are really "men of God who have gone wrong." And so they're willing to forgive them. Lawyers don't want to touch these cases, because "God" is in there somewhere. Cases like these are very unpopular as we've seen in the California Receivership debacle in 1979.

Folks have still NOT got the message that these religious groups are not people of God and never have been. Just because I change the sign at General Electric, does it change the fact that this company is a huge manufacturing corporation for government and industry? If I hang a "Victoria's Secret" sign over the top of the GE sign, does that change GE's output to that of a retail outlet for sexy lingerie designed for 18 year old anorexics with silicone implants?

People really think that God is in any place with a church name on it. That carries a huge psychological impact with most people. They have no concept that these are wolves in sheep's clothing, and they're the tares from the dark side of hell. And I think that (phony God) fear is the motivating factor in stopping people from coming against any religious group. If the douche-bag lawyers can't get witnesses (and the latter are too afraid) then the former can't win their case and get their bucks. So, they won't take on a class action suit.

Another thing here too, Ed, is that Worldwide Church of God is not the only culprit. The top individuals who were in that cult are also culpable. This goes for most of the scumbags in the upper echelons of the other tentacles from that demonic kingdom . . . LCG, UCG, PCG, etc. Just because they changed the color of their sheep's skin doesn't mean that they are any less wolves. If someone is going to be taken to task for damage done, then it MUST fall on the actual previous Gestapo members as well as the corporations.

If a class action suit is to happen (and I'm not a lawyer), then the suit would have to name and also sue the other top members, including ex-top members as well.

Also, if you could sue such a corporation, the only way to bring them down is NOT by saying they did the wrong thing. Courts will dismiss this as "ministers who went wrong," and throw out the case. The ONLY way, that I see, to nail these thugs is to prove conclusively that there was pre-intent or current intent to defraud people in the operation of the corporation. To do this, there would have to be direct evidence from someone high up in the corporation who was privy to the shenanigans.

The only way this could happen is to arrest someone on whom there is evidence of criminal behavior. If this person could then could be "persuaded" to turn state's evidence, then that might do it. Otherwise, unless there is inside and high up evidence, the case if futile. Any thoughts?

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