Email To The Editor, Page 21

I don't know who to address first. So I'll start with THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, to John B. for answering an email that had me distressed, concerning the guy who said we all had a choice as to stay or leave the wwc cult, NOT TRUE! John, you said all and more that I could not, and really told him like it was. Your articles have been so full of truth with similar experiences, that IF he was there at all, he wasn't all there.

I would like the questioner to ask himself if he was ever led astray or deceived by anyone? Fooled, tricked, or duped by someone he trusted? Some of the most intelligent, reasonable people "joined" this cult because they were DECEIVED by hwa's "truth".

As much as I hate to admit it ,Hwa had a few true statements that he baited me with. Anyone remember him saying "Does a deceived man KNOW when he is deceived ? NO, or he wouldn't be deceived!" His method was to tangle his lies with truth. Example: The truth of the pagan holidays kept by the world, that Jesus never kept. Sure that was true, yet what he didn't say was that the Bible couldn't be proven as the word of God, nor that his Jesus even existed. The big difficulty with that is that most mainstream Christianity believes it.

So we all start out in this world being deceived about something or another. We trust the parents, teachers and other adults to tell us the truth. Most of the time they think they are telling the truth, because THEY are deceived by traditions, and cultural beliefs.

Remember another one..." If you base your beliefs on a false premise, then all that follows will be false.(Some have proven that to be false).

Anyway, as far as choices go, we need to understand the difference between conscious, subconscious choice, and how manipulation, and deception influence our choices. Many of our thinking patterns have been set up in childhood, over which we have no choices. Until we mature enough to handle the truth emotionally, many will want to stay safe in their deception. No one wants to be wrong, much less admit it. For me, I always WANT the truth! No matter how painful.

In the early 70's, I was 28, my mom was concerned that the church was a cult. At that time there was not much info. to check it out. Also, I was convinced in my heart, that I had been led by God to find this "Truth." Who can turn away from God? I was deceived, deeply. However, I made her a promise that if I found out that the church wasn't what it seemed to be, that I would leave. It took 23 years, but I left in '93. The sad part was she died 5 years before she could know. I know she would be thrilled for me.

To You all who may read this, remember, we need compassion and understanding as we confront those who just don't get it, lest we become like those we abhor. I think that ED, John B. and John O. have done wonders in dealing with and answering so many on the site. We do need to stand up for integrity of what we know and experience, and continue to share with others. With this freedom comes responsibility to be honest, firm, yet kind. So, THANKS YOU GUYS, and keep up the good work. You sure have been good for me.

I think I'll sign the apology page and lead the way for more women to show how responsible we are for OUR teachings in ignorance!

After reading John O.'s Letter on the site, I want the HONOR to be the first woman to sign the apology page. After all, being in ignorance of my beliefs still promoted lies to all I talked to.

I may be pleased to be true to myself then, yet now that I know the PAINFUL TRUTH, I apologize for any pain or hurt I caused anyone.

If I hadn't feared being disfellowshipped back in '93, and hurting my family, I could have caused a BIG problem for our area. I chose wisdom to do it another way. I did challenge my minister that he could not disfellowship me if people called me for the truth. At least a few close friends did call and soon learned the truth and left.

I was only an elders wife, yet what I did reflected on my husband too. He needed time to come to know and understand what was going on. It was stress and chaos for me. Eventually, after a year he left the wcg also. That gave me an open door to give out all the info I had . I hope that that information distribution makes up for my part in the mess.

It has taken 6 years of studying cults to understand what happened to me and why. I wish the readers on the site would read the books posted. If we do not ,we are doomed to repeat the past, or live the lies we were taught. Each one must choose for himself the path he takes. we need to know to which drummer we are marching.

I ask that anyone with difficulties coping with the truth, please get help. We need support to reach the end.

I will create a new category on the page, "wives of ministers and elders" so that you can be the first. I think that I will add Deacons on to that list since so many people have a lot against them. God knows that some of the Deacons should go on the disfellowshipped page but I will be reserving that for ministerial rank only.

Once again, an apology from a person who did whatever they did out of ignorance. I wonder if any of the real abusers will ever apologize? Nah.

Thank you for responding to my e-mail. It is greatly appreciated. I decided to research the Worldwide Church of God for a paper I have due in my English class little did I know that finding out all the information from your Website was going to affect me so much. A lot of things I just knew in my heart (and common sense) about the church have now been confirmed and I just want to thank you again for revealing the truth.

P.S. Right now I wouldn't change my experiences either. I believe without these experiences (no matter how much I may not have liked them) I would not be the person I am. I have a wonderful husband and my Ph.D. is only a couple of years away. I hope you had a great Thanksgiving!

I am writing this letter in response to your WebPages.(this is not hatemail) I am a member of wcg, but being only a teen I know not of how the church used to be entirely. I have been in the church for less than ten years. Ten years, however, is enough to see some mistakes.

While I was in the YES program I did realize that we hadn't learned anything a bout Jesus. What I basically remember was them giving us homework assignments to color Biblical pictures. I thought to teach Jesus, they'd have to draw him, and I thought that was a sin. It was stupid, but I had no say. I was a kid.

Eventually the YES system was removed and we focused mainly on Jesus. Now my local congregation doesn't have a youth service (since me and my brother are really the only youths because it's a new congregation in a small town) and the sermons are about Jesus and love.

What I have learned from Worldwide Church of God is to be a free-thinker. I don't believe everything I'm told. I don't regard ministers as infallible. That's a Catholic Papacy belief and I think it's dumb. I have my own thoughts on the Bible, I attend church to worship and hear other's opinions. I could really attend any church, I just happen to be baptized fist Catholic then into Worldwide Church of God. I do prefer Worldwide Church of God over Catholicism because NOW Worldwide Church of God is LESS forceful of beliefs.

What I'd like to say, though, is Worldwide Church of God is changed. It used to be a cult, from what I've read on yours and other sites, but now isn't. I noticed most all of the messages posted have to do with how the church was before I cared. Why must you still pester Worldwide Church of God. They're okay now. I'd advise, however, looking into United Church of God, and Philadelphia CG since they are the ones still following HWA.

Thanks for your message and for doing it in a non-hateful way. You deserve answers.

I have said that I do not feel that the present Worldwide Church of God is worse than a lot of other Christian churches. I do not begrudge them the right to make a living off of people's fear of death and unreasoning acceptance of the Bible as God's word, just like any other church.

My problem with them is that they have a debt to pay. The Worldwide Church of God ran up an account of broken and destroyed lives. If they believe in this Jesus that they now profess to follow, they ought to do what He would do with the "old money", the money that purchased all the properties in Pasadena and Big Sandy and built all the buildings, the money we donated before you came along in this new church. I feel that this Jesus would take that money and use it to try to repair some of the damage that this church has done. I don't think He would use it to feather the nests of the high muckety-mucks in the hierarchy in Pasadena. He would not use it to try to expand a church that was built on the graves and broken bodies of its members. He said that a bad tree could not bear good fruit. The roots of this church are as evil as you can find. Why would Jesus contradict himself and further confuse people, by having anything to do with this present Worldwide Church of God?

You know what they should have done? They should have sold everything, given the money to an independent, caring organization, and told them to use it for the good of all the people that the church was responsible for damaging. The money would run out very quickly, long before it could help a small percentage of people that deserved it. Then they should tell all the members exactly what happened and how this church was founded by a child abusing liar, HWA. It was passed on to another liar, Joe Sr. Then they should disqualify all the "ordained" ministry, since nobody who ordained them had any authority from God to do so, all being in succession from the first unqualified "minister," HWA. He had no authority so all ordinations after that had to be invalid. Then, if these bloodsuckers want to start another church, on their own, without my money helping them, they can go ahead and do that and I will not bother them. They will do none of this though, because their first priority is not in doing what is right before God and man, but doing what will make them the most money. They are afraid if they have to just "trust Jesus" to prosper them, that they will have to give up their luxurious lifestyle.

You would not be able to get away with beating someone up at your school so that he ended up in the hospital and then stealing his lunch money, would you? What would happen if the excuse that you gave was, "yeah, maybe I did it, but you see, I've found Jesus now so I will just keep the money and if that kid that I beat, lives to get out of the hospital that I will not be paying for, I hope he finds Jesus too." It is just as simple as that. What they are doing is not right. I don't think you have to be an adult to see that there is something very wrong going on here. And it is especially wrong because it is being done in God's name. They don't even care enough about what the God that they pretend to worship thinks about what they are doing. And so I can only believe that they really do not believe in God. I think that I believe more in God than they do. I think their God is MONEY. They worship it, they will do whatever they have to to hold on to it.

Have you heard of all the ministers who have been laid off by your church? That is because the money that is being donated to the Worldwide Church of God is becoming less and less. You haven't heard of the leaders taking a pay cut have you? Have you or anyone else ever seen a full accounting of the Worldwide Church of God expenditures? Most "legitimate" churches will make these documents available. What are they afraid of? Joe Jr. got a pay RAISE when he first took over and this was when they were laying off field ministers. As the income falls, the leaders will keep on getting their hefty paychecks, they will just keep cutting back on the field ministers until they are all gone. Before that happens, the leadership will switch the emphasis to The Plain Truth Ministries, a different entity, apart form the Worldwide Church of God. Once the Worldwide Church of God cash cow is dead and the members (who they really don't care about) scattered, they will use the Plain Truth Ministries to milk the believers that they can harvest with it.

I hope that you really are a freethinker. If you are, you will take nothing at some other person's word. You will research and draw your own conclusions based on facts. Don't get your mind fixed in anything that you can't prove and then even be flexible because things can change. What you think you have proved is true today, may be proved wrong tomorrow, because you came up with some different evidence. Question everything. Be true to yourself. Don't follow any man.

I didn't realize my church was such a huge money maker! Today I had an augment with my mom about how I thought the old church was bad and it brainwashed people.

"It wasn't bad. We learned from it." What the heck does that mean?!? Mistakes are bad, we learn from them. I know I'm better off religiously now than I would have been had I remained Catholic, but that doesn't mean It wasn't bad. She doesn't like the word bad.

Also she said she didn't feel brainwashed, she followed old Jewish holidays because she wanted to. Funny, I remember celebrating them because she said we had to. She was different from some other members though. She said a lot of people didn't know who Jesus was. Only a cult could have such blind followers to not know who their main man and center of worship was.

I often feel sorry about being in Worldwide Church of God. I couldn't trick or treat. Christmas was limited only because Dad and the rest of my family are Catholic. I wasn't allowed to participate in Christmas activities at school. I couldn't watch Saturday morning cartoons (find Biblical reasoning for that!). I did get Easter candy, though. I think it is very dumb that Worldwide Church of God didn't recognize the resurrection though.

I always thought I had to give 10% to the church, because God worked through it. Now I see they only spend it on salaries and buildings, not really God's work (although the Catholic church probably uses all their tithe on decorations to make their building more ornate and wafers and wine. God doesn't need beautiful churches; Jesus preached anywhere people listened.)

I think I should cut out one of the middle men and give money directly to organizations who do do God's work.

Some people just have a hard time of admitting they were wrong. Saying something is bad means admitting that you made a mistake if you were a part of what was bad. If you spent 25 years in prison, you could probably say that it wasn't all bad and that you learned some lessons and had some good relationships, but you would not volunteer to do it again or recommend it to anyone to try, because it was bad.

One suggestion. Look into each organization to see how much is spent on helping people and how much on the "workers and directors." You may do better and get more satisfaction out of looking for people to help on your own with your money or your time. Even then, giving people money isn't always the best way to help them.

We're having a traditional Thanksgiving at our house to honor the spirit of the first one.

We have invited the entire neighborhood over for a tremendous feast, after which we are going to kill them all and steal their land.

I received the above joke; the more I thought about it the less funny it was. I thought that since we are a group of thinking, learning people we should make an effort to learn the truth (or as close to the truth as we can about the days that the USA celebrates) After all this site is called the Painful Truth.

Here we are in the United States, claiming to be a Christian nation, and we make a national holiday of a day that celebrates the beginning of the taking over of this country by the white man. Family members that rarely talk to us feel the need to send cards and e-mails; wishing us a "Happy Thanksgiving" and telling us about all the things they have to be thankful for. Not that I am against being thankful for all the good things. It is just very few people ever take the time or effort to find out about the origin of this day.

How many have looked into why the Pilgrims landed at Plymouth; they knew that the Indian tribe that had lived in this village had been wiped out by plague. And all the food supplies were still stored there; if the tribe had not prepared for winter and left food behind the Pilgrims would not have survived that first winter. If it had not been for Indian help they would not have had food for the next winter. These were city people with little or no idea of how to farm or hunt.

According to some accounts the main focus was not on religious freedom; but on making money and getting rich. There was a piece on the news the other night about the mystery at Jamestown; some historian that I have read suspect that the people fled to live with the local tribes where they would not only be treated more as equals but also have personal freedom. Until there is time travel we are not going to ever know the real story.

Do you have any info on the UCG split and David Hulme?? My father joined with Hulme and I'm trying to find out what the new church is called.

Sorry Paul, but I don't personally keep up with all the splits. If anyone would like to submit articles as a public service, I would post them, but don't have time to do that myself.

I was brought up in WWCG from the age of 4 -and even graduated from their "cardinal" school (A.C.). So in a nutshell, I was totally brainwashed! One book I highly recommend to all who are needing help breaking free from horrible brainwashing church experiences, is a book by Ken Blue, called "Healing Spiritual Abuse." Reading it, I thought it was tailored made for just WWCG survivors. However, it is tailor made for all people who have been or still are chained to the Satan lead, abusers who masquerade around as "ministers of light".

Also, I was perusing the various letters you supply and ran across one that I would like some follow-up information on. I attended the Duluth, MN church and was under Bill Gordon's control. I would like to hear from others, their stories about this guy, and anything on Guy Swenson as well. I was too young and "brainwashed" to know much of their behind the scenes vileness, so I solicit information on these guys.

One last thing --I have been festering over this for years --one of the WWCG's deacons in Duluth, molested my sister and I want to know if others have fallen victim to this insidious/dangerous man ... his name, (name withheld).

I don't know about Bill Gordon but I knew Guy Swenson fairly well. I never had any problems with him, myself, even went on visits with him for a while, but I was not a trouble-maker and didn't get a lot of bad advice from him. I actually thought he was a pretty nice guy. But, I also liked Carl McNair, so you can't exactly trust my feelings at the time I was a member of the cult compared to how I would feel about them today if they would try to treat me the same way. I was a loyal, truebeliever.

The following correspondence is between Alex James and Frank Nelte, a Worldwide Church of God minister.

I read the two page article in the Journal and would like to comment on it, plus question some statements in it concerning the church, religion and Armstrong.

There is such a thing as "shock parole" in the penal institutions of this country. It is a system used to deeply impress the severity and consequences of punishment to first time offenders for second violations. Therefore they are released on parole, with the hope they will think twice before breaking the law again.

In like manner, after I left the Worldwide Church of God and UCG where my mind was kneaded and shaped to conform to Herbert's Rube Goldberg agenda, what I have learned since then shocks me to even think about returning to it or any other church, and to utterly spurn the bible and religion in general.

I can understand now why Herbert warned us to avoid "Satan's world" (funny, I thought God created it), and it's evil inhabitants, (I thought God made them, too), and to definitely shun any literature that was contrary to the Worldwide Church of God teachings. And Trechak's Ambassador Report was a strict no no. So, after being bound in a legalistic religious strait jacket for over 27 years, I burst forth from the cocoon, my mind thirsting for the real knowledge I was deprived of for so long. The first book I dove into was "The Tangled Web". This was the major shock. There were many others to follow. But this book astounded me, revealing the REAL Armstrong. Why in the world you would think that God placed a mantle over this man and make you believe he is an apostle, is beyond me. A man who admitted to incest with his daughter for over 12 years, a man who is responsible for the ruination and financial losses of many families, suicides and cramped life styles.

Quoting the article; "Armstrong without doubt (don't question it, brethren, I said it, so there! ) was a servant of God. I have no question (I do) that God used Mr. Armstrong to teach His truth, God's truth, to all of us. Mr. Armstrong was not perfect (HE thought he was) he had his faults. (So true!). Whatever faults Mr. Armstrong had were really insignificant to mine or yours". Unquote.

Well, Frank, if I were back in that Worldwide Church of God dazed, tunnel state of mind, I would also be nodding in total agreement along with the rest of the sheep. But you, sir, are totally 100% wrong. It is his fault that caused all the disasters I mentioned above. It is his fault that caused the death of Garnet Hill, a devoted member of Worldwide Church of God, after they milked him financially dry. This, with the aid of Joe Tkach. Everyone at headquarters knew about it, plus about all the ministerial staff. It is also his fault that he made over a 100 predictions that proved fruitless. You call these Insignificant? The only fault I find with the COG members is that they continue to remain and be used and abused.

You are SO right when you said that authoritarianism is anti-intellectualism. You quoted Richard Hofstadter whose statement fit the COG's to a T. To quote a passage from it; ---"religion is largely an affair of the heart or of the Intuitive qualities of the mind, and that the rational mind is irrelevant or worse, so far will it be believed that the rational facilities are barren and perhaps dangerous". Unquote. In other words, upon entering a cult, leave your brains at the door.

In closing, I would like to include some of the quotes that I came across, and feel free to comment on them, if and when you respond to this letter;

"The Bible teaches that woman brought sin and death into the world. She was to play the role of a dependent on man's bounty for all her material wants. and for all the information she might desire...Here is the Bible position of woman briefly summed up". --------Elizabeth Cady Stanton

"I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life. I believe in the equality of man, and I believe religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow creatures happy". ---------Thomas Paine

"Most intellectual progress and comprehension of complex phenomena cease once the mind deludes itself into believing it has uncovered a Holy Grail or an eternal truth (Plain Truth?) . Any meaningful analysis of reality must consider all such so-called truths as merely tentative expedients". ---------Wilson Bryan Key, Subliminal Seduction

I could go on and give you more quotes and more data that I have discovered, but I think what I have presented to you will give you an idea of what I thought about the article, and that you will realize the literary "shock" treatments I am experiencing convince me that I'd as soon join a leper colony than return to any church, let alone the COGs.

When Dixon Cartwright wanted tgo interview me, all I did is give the answers that I personally believe in. They express my personal beliefs.

I have no problems at all in acknowledging that other people have other views, and I have no desire to try to convince such people of my views.

So I have no difficulties with you disagreeing with the things I said when Dixon interviewed me. BTW: it is not as if I was looking for someone to interview me ... the Journal approached me; I didn't approach them.

I am puzzled by your statement that I "quoted Richard Hofstadter"? I don't believe I know who Richard Hofstadter is or was?? Not that it really matters.

Anyway, you have obviously reached certain conclusions about religion. I wish you all the best in your endeavours to live in harmony with your own convictions.

I apologize for the mix-up about Richard Hofstadter. I can understand your confusion. He is an author of a book called Anti-Intellectualism in American Life. What I quoted you was actually in a Brian Knowles article directly across the page from yours. I assumed it was a continuation of your interview so I naturally thought it was part of it. The Journal is structured in such a plethora of fine print and confusing continuations, that it is easy to make this mistake.

Nevertheless, I am very disappointed in your rather abbreviated response to my almost 2 page document. But after 27 years in Herbert's cult, I should have expected it. In essence, what I got was a pat on the back and told to go along now and be happy with my religious convictions.

That won't do. I brought up FACTS that you conveniently avoided and failed to respond to. So I will try one more time. Here are some pointed questions I'd like you to answer, omitting the "Clinton 2-step:"

5. Are you aware of how Armstrong scammed a senior citizen (Garnet Hill) out of his money and property?

6. Are you aware of the rising backlash from angry teenagers whose parents were formerly in the Worldwide Church of God? Also the documented suicide of some?

In fact, these questions should be addressed to EVERY minister in the COGs. But at the moment, Frank, I am asking you to be frank with me. If you believe in the 10 commandments, you will answer truthfully. If deep in your heart you know the above to be true and refuse to answer, God will wonder why. Remember, there are over 40,000 of us out here who know the REAL Plain Truth.

Lately I have been wondering about some of the statements you have made concerning Christianity. Just wondering, not judging or condemning. You deserve better than that. I can not agree with your stand concerning the Bible, although I do highly respect it. I know there are many pros and cons on both sides of the fence. And I admire you for taking a firm position rather than vacillating back and fourth.

I think a bigger issue than the Bible is, is Jesus God. On this one question everything falls or stands. If Jesus is not God then what we believe concerning Christianity and the Bible makes no difference. But then on the other hand if He is God than there are choices and considerations to make that go beyond our own opinions and those of atheist or agnostic scholars.

Have you read the book, "The Case For Christ" by Lee Strobel? He makes a very strong argument. He establishes facts concerning Jesus both with and without the Bible. It is a very convincing book. I am not sure it can be lightly set aside.

I know you are sincerely striving for truth. I would like to recommend that you consider reading this book. It will not be a waste of your time or resources. If you are not sure I would be pleased to send you a copy of the book without charge or obligation.

Ed, I sincerely believe this book will help you in your quest for truth. You are a man of integrity, and I deeply respect you. What ever you decide I will continue to support you and your efforts concerning, The Painful Truth.

Keep up the good work Ed, our prayers are for you and your family. May the Lord continue to watch over and protect all of you.

How about you condense all these proofs from the book you want me to read into a few paragraphs? If the case is compelling enough, I will read the book. But, if I do read it, you have to read The Age of Reason.

I started to write a summary on The Case For Christ by Lee Strobel. It has turned out to be a very difficult book to evaluate properly in just a few short paragraphs. However I found that Barnes and Noble (bn.com) has done a good job of it. They list all the chapters which will give you an overview. They also list several customer comments on the book.

Again, I think it would be well worth your time and effort to investigate this book. Ed, please understand I am not trying to change or convert you. I can't change anyone's thinking, and wouldn't be foolish enough to try.

I am reading The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine. It is a very interesting book. I think in his own way he adequately explains life without the need for religion or the gods of religion. Looking at life humanly, without Jesus Christ, his conclusions are sound. However if Jesus is God, then his reasoning is nothing more then philosophical rambling. If Jesus is God than there is much to consider, and going to or getting involved in church` or any religious system is not one of them!

Ed, don't let your anger towards Worldwide Church of God, and they are bastards, prevent you from continuing your quest for truth and knowledge.

Well Bob, I will get the book, if the library has it or can get it. I would think that any proof of Christ's existence would be very easy unless it is just a bunch of BS. If God had wanted us to follow this person, I would think that He would have made it very demonstrable that Jesus actually existed. I would think that there would be no denying it and then a person could only have himself to blame for not accepting Him.

But the fact is that you will not find Jesus outside of the Bible. That is why you will have such a hard time evaluating that book, "The Case for Christ." There are no facts. It is all hope and legend and stories written by men and put together into one book, the Bible, by other men, who kept some books that fit in with their beliefs that were current at the time and threw out other books or letters that just didn't fit according to their beliefs. A book full of errors and contradictions. This is God's word? Not for me.

The whole thing does not come down to believing or not believing in Jesus. It comes down to believing or not believing in a book. Now, in all other cases, I am sure you will not believe any book you read unless you see some proof of what it states. But in the case of the Bible we all just believed what we were told about it: That it was God's word. That it was holy. That God inspired it. Okay, show me some proof. They have no proof. You just have to BELIEVE or lose your eternal life. Well, any God that would want me to follow any fool that came along professing to be His representative, without any proof, has got to be a God I do not want have anything to do with.

What kind of God would want me to believe something simply because 30% of the rest of the people believed it? Especially when 99.9% of these people never did any research into what they believed as far as proving without a doubt that they had the "truth" straight from God?

What kind of god would give me a supposed "instruction manual" that I would need to follow in order to attain eternal life but then fill it with contradictions and errors, "inspire" fallible men to write it, write it in ancient foreign languages and then subject it to multiple translations and interpretations and then have multiple variations of one religion and then expect me to weed out the bad from the good?

Now there is one thing I know for sure that God has given me and that is my brain. If I have to turn off my brain (that God gave me) in order to follow "God" then something is wrong and it is not my brain.

Christianity is based on Faith. That means NO evidence. Belief with no proof. Is that what God wants? Well then, how are the rest of this world's religions any different? They have no proof either. Most of the people that have these beliefs have them because that is what the majority of the people that live in their country believe. They believe it because their parents believed it and they were indoctrinated with it from childhood just like their parents. By the time they are old enough to think for themselves, they are thoroughly indoctrinated. Christianity is the same way. How are Christians "right" with no proof but the rest of the world is "wrong" with no proof? Is life just a crapshoot and your salvation depending on where you were born? If you are born into a "Christian" nation, such as the USA, you have a better chance at salvation than if you were born in a non-Christian nation such as China?

The basis for the Christian belief is the fear of death. This Christ, who cannot be proved to have ever existed except from a flawed book which would never pass any legitimate test of soundness that we would subject any other book to, promises a life after death with virtually no cost in this life: Grace, free, unmerited pardon to all who will mindlessly worship him.

Just believe with no proof. Do not use your brain because then you will lose your eternal life. I thank HWA and the Worldwide Church of God for waking me from my stupor and turning my brain back on again. They showed me just how very wrong I can be when I trust other people to tell me what truth is and what I should believe and how I should follow God. Now I will not accept anyone telling me that any book that can be proved to have one flaw can be a communication from a perfect God. Now I accept nothing on faith. Now I try to use my brain to figure out what I believe, not my feelings, not my fears. I recommend that to everybody.

It is not anger at a man or a church that has caused me to examine my beliefs. It is the same desire to follow God completely that led me to Armstrongism and now leads me to reject all manmade religion. Unless a religion can prove to me that God had sanctioned and approved of it, I will not follow it. I think that God is bigger than the petty fairy tale religions of this world. Basically, if He/She/It does not despise these religions and all the harm that they do, then He/She/It just tolerates them because they don't interfere with His/Her/It's overall plan, if there is one.

Am I supposed to believe someone is telling me the truth just because I like what they are selling? I don't do that when I buy a car (I've learned the hard way with cars too) so why would I do that with Religion? Let's see, I like the idea of Eternal life, I like Grace, I like the fact there is nothing that I have to do except mindlessly follow and I will have it made. Christianity sells that package. So I will buy Christianity as my religion. Of course, I will have to pick from multiple thousands of versions of Christianity, most of whom believe that all the other versions are absolutely wrong. I will not consider anything else after that or I am threatened with losing my eternal life. I will even die for my beliefs because eternity is much more valuable than this short life. I will not ask for any proof, since that would be too embarrassing since there is no proof. You have to have faith, you see. Why do we have so much trust in religious types? Why do we accept what they say without question?

Is this what God expects of us? To not think? Sorry but I am not interested in following such a God. I would rather not have eternal life if I could not think and use my brain. How much fun would that be? Couldn't imagine doing that for a day let alone eternity. Or is it that we are just not to use our brains in this life but in the future life we will be able to? Yeah, I think that is the way it goes. Not for me. There is no proof that there is any life other than this one. I do hope that there is, but I will now live my life as though this is all I get and make the most of every moment. Life is much more precious to me now. Everybody's life, not just mine.

It is not bitterness against the Worldwide Church of God or HWA that has led me to this point, it is like waking up from a drugged sleep. I have finally found the truth and that is that nobody knows what is going on here but it must not be important, otherwise God would tell us and we would have no doubt about who was telling us either.

This site is very comical, and also the biggest waste of time I have ever seen put into a web site not to mention the biggest load of crap I have ever seen. It's nice to see you people that are "Christians" are out poking fun and slandering others. Yes, that is Christ-like wouldn't you say? I can just see Christ slandering and lying can't you? NOT!!!!!!! You people are so full of it. Get a life!

Just finished reading on the site about the COG money mess, and the infighting, and the hatred, and the convoluted reasoning of the hirelings . . . all to make $$$$$. After all, business IS business.

Many years ago (in 1981), when we were still in Hawaii and a part of Seventh Day, Ken Lawson - who was the West Coast overseer - talked with me. I recall Ken's words very accurately, as I felt he was correct at the time. I've repeated them to many others since. Remember, that the Seventh Day group were actually chuckling privately about HWA and his madness.

"John," Ken told me, "when Herbert dies, you are going to see a cut-throat attitude and infighting inside that organization like you've never seen before in Worldwide. Then, "he predicted,"it'll all come to pieces."

Remember my last e-mail to this guy with a list of specific questions I wanted this asshole's response to? I got this from him on my e-mail this morning. Short, terse, and to the point. Mind's made up, don't bother me with the facts. The Journal I sent you tells all about him. A died-in-the-wool Herbie junkie.

I don't know at all that the allegations you have presented about Mr. Armstrong are true. In fact, I am convinced that they are lies. I am, however, not interested in discussing the matter ... I see no point in arguing with you.

Guess I ought to mark this PRIVATE - I'm not sure. You can post it on your e-mail page but without the address please. Have just read about J.T.'s obscene wealth. Interesting but not surprising really. Boy how those hypocrites love money (actually so I do I, but conning it out of others is below even me).

Quick question: does anyone have the answer? Maybe Skeptic does. How much money did Herbie leave when he kicked the bucket? Did it ever get made public? Where did it go? Have just had an awful thought: maybe, just maybe, he figured out a way to take it with him - I wouldn't put it past him. Perhaps he stuffed it in his mattress. Does anyone know what happened to that? Food for thought.

Thanks for the Painful Truth - I would say 'keep up the good work' except that its the same mindless phrase that gets included at the end of innumerable reader letters to the Plain Truth, Good News, Philadelphia Strumpet etc etc.

YES !!! I was a victim of the " Worldwide Church of God ". PTSD ??? the church and the Vietnam War . ( 1967-68 )

Just three years ago ... I was diagnosed and told by a V A medical Hospital doctor ... you"ve been suffering from the war . ( 30 years ) While in the church , about 22 years .. looking back at two relationships with " baptised female members ... the first in 1978 ... put me in a hospital ... breakdown and depression . In 1996 ... a " baptised " member I married ... after ten years ... put me in a hospital a second time .

Vietnam was nothing compared to having relationships with " women of God ", so-called church people . I rather serve again in Vietnam ( helicopter door-gunner ) then have another relationship with ANGELS OF LIGHT. The people that are still in the Worldwide Church of God are CONFORMIST !!! as the two females I mentioned . WE are REBELS !!! ... and their is HOPE for us ... their REALLY IS ...... I remember reading " somewhere " , that people , REAL people , will worship God in SPIRIT and in TRUTH ... as the MAN from Galilee DID . He belonged to NO church and in America , we have this FREEDOM .... ONE NATION UNDER GOD ... a slave to no one . He will FILL that emptiness we've carried FAR TO LONG . Remember what that guy MOSES said ??? be STILL and KNOW ..... we don't have to suffer as much anymore .

My wife and I were long time members of the Worldwide Church of God. During some of that time, I learned that the ministers who came to visit and counsel would write reports and submit them to Pasadena. Many of these reports contained details of very embarrassing situations that could be troublesome to many people today.

As the Campus is sold, we should have access to those personal records. We should have the choice of having those records returned to us or having them expunged and destroyed.

The situation could arise that you might not be able to find all the records. If this were to occur, those who have never been a part of the Worldwide Church of God might have full access to them and use them in rather unpredictable ways.

You have a moral obligation, if not a legal one, to pursue due diligence to assure that our records are protected from being laid open to public scrutiny.

I was brought up in WWCG from the age of 4 -and even graduated from their "cardinal" school (A.C.). So in a nutshell, I was totally brainwashed! One book I highly recommend to all who are needing help breaking free from horrible brainwashing church experiences, is a book by Ken Blue, called "Healing Spiritual Abuse." Reading it, I thought it was tailored made for just WWCG survivors. However, it is tailor made for all people who have been or still are chained to the satan lead, abusers who masquerade around as "ministers of light".

Was the deacon ever charged and convicted? I am not saying that I don't believe you, I do. It is just that I cannot publish any accusations using his name if there is no proof that it happened. Plus, I would need your full name. This is all not necessary if I just leave your email as saying that a "deacon molested my sister".

Thanks for the response. This was my first time sending you email and I should have known about printing the accusations, my background is in law. I guess I got caught up in the heat of the emotion.

You may use my email ... it won't take a rocket scientist to know my last name is in the address. However, my intent on writing is to help others, struggling with the effects of this cult.

Regarding the molestation, I don't know if Name Withheld was ever convicted --he and his family have moved all over the United States and I believe he currently resides in the Palm Springs area. He still has strong contacts in the Duluth, MN area, and so I think by publishing my email, it may resurrect some suppressed memories, wherein possibly something could be done today. If anything, to at least expose this sick pedophile.

It is hard to believe I once "worshipped" these idiots ... these false prophets --that fact, I continue to shake my head over.

Here's a tid-bit, while living in Pasadena, one of my best friends was Carol Dean (the X of Kevin) ... oh my, what a bunch they all were/are.

One last thing, if there ever is a class action suit against WWCG, please put my name on it.

I just finished Sharon's in-depth article about the Bethlehem, PA church area. I felt that she really conveyed what it was like to be there and live through the indoctrination and the psychological hell that played with young (and older) member's minds. I think part of the reason it felt so real to me is that, in my experience, it was the same in all the other church areas as well. As I was reading, I thought "She's talking about what it was like for me!"

My family began attending Worldwide Church of God in 1970. While I was growing up my father was transferred with his job several times, and I moved a few times myself after I left home and was still attending Worldwide Church of God. I figure I have "belonged" to at least 7 different congregations spread geographically from New York to southern Florida, Minnesota, Indiana and Illinois, not to mention the 25 feasts and all the YOU activities and Singles activities...and my experience in each of these congregations was remarkably similar to what Sharon recounts. There were some small differences, but the cult had pretty fool-proof control methods and they seem to have employed them unilaterally.

As damaging as these practices were, I think that there must have been an additional factor(s) in the Bethlehem area that may have contributed to the high suicide rate; otherwise, the suicide rate cult-wide would be much higher.

Just my humble opinion. Thank you for your continuing efforts with the website! Keep up the good work.

The evidence seems to point to one "minister" in particular as to the reason this area had so many suicides. Have heard about him from other areas too.

From time to time, our home edition The Columbus Dispatch will print misbehaviors by "Ministers of God." They often are deviates who prey on single or married women, and children. When these guys are exposed, they are given short shrift. A previous news report was about a Baptist minister caught with his hand in God's cookie jar. He was promptly axed. In India, he would have been called "Lefty."

"The pastor of a church has been placed on probation flve years for molesting boys since 1981. The Rev. Charles O. Clarke, 74, of Shaker Heights pleaded guilty Oct. 12 to five counts of gross sexual imposition. Judge Janet Burnside on Monday allowed the probation because Clarke is unlikely to repeat the offenses. (how the hell does SHE know?) She could have given him 18 months in prison on each count. (She must have belonged to his church). She ordered him to register with law-enforcement authorities every year for the next decade. He was indicted in March on 14 felony charges, most of which were dropped as part of a plea agreement." (This guy only got a slap on the wrist).

The more I read on the Painful Truth about women and children being sexually abused by these Worldwide Church of God ministerial sex fiends, the madder I get. I would like to see all the victims band together and file a suit against each and every one of these monsters who abused them and sue the hell out of them. In this case, Justice would prevail on the innocent side. Who knows? it may also open up a whole new can of worms that will send the entire lof of these miscreants of God's message scurrying back to under the rock from whence they came.

It is mind boggling how people will be so forgiving of anyone that claims to be God's representative. Its a perfect disguise for just plain bad people.

A month or so ago, there was a minister in a very popular church not far from here that committed suicide after being accused of molesting a little boy. Over 1,000 people, as I heard it reported, showed up for his funeral! If one of the members had done this same thing, I can guarantee the attendance would not have been even close. A couple days later, more boys came forward with the same accusation.

I think that people might be just a little afraid that the charlatans may actually have a little pull with God and they had better go easy on them. People are just fools when it comes to God. They will believe anything, it seems. No proof needed.

My minister told us that if we killed ourselves, we were demon possessed. I don't know anything about Armstrong being possessed or anything else like that. But I had bad dreams when I was 10 about demons. My parents told the minister about dreams and then I was spanked. The minister told them I might be demon possessed. What do you recommend for me now cause I still think I may be demon possessed because I still have bad dreams.

First of all, if this continues to trouble you, I would say that you should seek professional help.

My opinion: Everybody has bad dreams. All children have bad dreams. Most do not have parents that spank them for it, usually the parents will hold the child and comfort the child. One of my sons had very bad dreams until he was a teenager. He would sit up in bed crying and just in stark fear. It would be some time before we could get him to wake up and stop crying. I never for once thought it was demons.

Most children do not have ministers that are so evil themselves that they would think that anything as normal as a bad dream would be a sign of demons.

Go to your library and read some books on dreams and nightmares. I think they may reassure you that you are perfectly normal and it was your minister and your parents that were screwed up, not you.

As one who formerly attended the Worldwide Church of God I am happy to say I have found a lot more

joy, peace, and freedom outside of that organization. I recently learned about 80 people( approx. 25 % of the original congregation ) is still clinging to the Worldwide Church of God in the local congregation I attended and I just had to ask myself why. If the old HWA teachings are what they want then why not join a splinter group, if they truly believe the new covenant then why not join a normal neighborhood church and do something for the community. Why keep shoveling money to Pasadena ? Others may have some ideas but I came up with four possible explanations :

"apostle" will come along one day and restore the old HWA Worldwide Church of God.

4. Some stay to avoid conflict with spouses or relatives who are still entrenched

A lot of decent, talented, and well-meaning people have been caught in the Worldwide Church of God

This is a response to Paul's note to you asking for information on David Hulme's split from the United Church of God.

Hulme's church is called simply the "Church of God." When David was elected president of the UCG by the other ministers (the tithe paying members had no say in his selection), he tried to set himself up as a latter-day Herbert W. Armstrong. Under his administration, UCG expenditures ran considerably over budget and created a financial crisis, which required that a number of ministers be laid off, while others were cut back to part-time.

David also produced a television pilot at a cost for around a quarter of a million dollars. A former presenter on the World Tomorrow program, David expected to resume his career as a talking head. His pilot program created a scandal among the UCG ministry due to its expense, and that, on top of the budget overruns, led to Hulme's removal as president of the UCG in early 1998. Hulme left the UCG shortly thereafter, forming the "Church of God," with himself firmly in charge, and adopting a more authoritarian form of church government, unlike the United Church of God, which they try to run based on a consensus of the ministry (which excludes input from the tithe-paying lay membership).

Just a note of encouragement to you Elizabeth to know there are many here who have (and still are) suffering the "after affects" of wwc.

I compare it to an octopus that will not let go, or just some ghosts that keep haunting us. Even the songs keep popping in my head at times.

We need to reframe our experiences and get power over them. It is a great thing to do. We lost our power, and now it is time to empower ourselves.

I suggest you find help from qualified cult counselors who truly understand what happened to you. Just so you know it can be done...that there is LIFE after the wcg experience.

We can all rejoice together with you and others as we move forward to finally enjoy life and find peace. Hope you keep in touch, let us know how you are doing.

To Kimberly, It sounds like you have come to understand how to reframe your wcg experiences. I know it is not easy. I still get angry, and want to avoid wcg people whose paths cross mine. But, take heart, and have the courage that someday when they come to us, we will be here to help comfort and share the truth. There truly is a time for all things..

.Thanks for the email to Ed's site, it brings more awareness of where others are at and that we are not alone.

I was thinking the other day; there are lot of people who have been wronged. They married the wrong person; the minister told them to marry someone their own age, the minister said they should no longer be alone, or the minister said you are a good match in god's eyes.

Not sure where that falls, but I do remember a guy I was dating that the minister told him that a certain woman was the perfect mate for him. I don't know what happened from there but I do know I never spent time with him again and the minister made sure that the they married.

My wife came home yesterday and found "The Watchtower" stuck in our screen door. I took a look through it and noticed how very similar it was in content to the Plain Truth and HWA's writings. The whole issue was about the coming millennium and the return of Christ. So my question is this: who copied from whom? Did HWA steal stuff from the JW's or did the JW's take up where HWA left off? Either way a cult is a cult is a cult and the Jehovah Witness's are certainly one! Needless to say their literature went into my waste can. I hope somewhere the person that left it in my door is knocking the dust off their shoes. I definitely don't need anymore of that type of nonsense in my life.

The GYCG was fortunate enough to get a first and last edition copy of "Except the Lord Shall Build a House," a 140 page book of worshipful Herbie quotes compiled by the Packman himself before his fateful demise! This is a sure fire collector's edition, sure to increase in value (since it was "free," its a safe bet maybe).

Of course, Pack will form the Restored Restored Church of God after he explains the PLOT against him by Satan and his accusers!!!

Herb was never a wussy like these guys they tried to shove him out of his church but he took it back -with POWER!! Yea, he had to form a money laundering deal in exile in Tuscon, but he got it ALL back and MORE!!! These pathetic babies just go and form a new new new TRUE TRUE TRUE church and dilute their share of the Herb pie each time. SHEEECH!!! A true heir to the throne would stay and fight and toss the chumps who tried the hostile takeover and then make them look like cast-off spiritual turds who no one would dare follow.

The Apostle is ASHAMED of what is done in his name!!! Joe T. had to have a Mafia to do what one Herb did all by himself!!! Rod did crush the competition something the Apostle thought was beyond him or else he may have left him in control.

In short, I know Herbert W. Armstrong. Herbert W. Armstrong is a fiend of mine... and these guys are no Herbert W. Armstrong.

To: The One Most Worthy, Go to the Rabbi, the Priest (the ministry) and the Elders and give Testimony. This is the days of Revelation.

I am a witness and give testimony. These are the days of Revelation the Book of the Bible. The War of Dogma has began. The War of Dogma that is written of in the book of Revelation, the book of the Bible.

As it is written for the one testifying, I say; I am coming quickly. Amen Yes, come Lord Jesus. May the grace of our Lord Jesus be with all of you. Amen

My Bible is a interlinar Bible with a Blue Binding and Hebrew over English and Greek over English. It is written "I warn you the one testifing says; I am coming quickly. Amen Yes, come Lord Jesus May the Grace of the Lord Jesus be with all of you. Amen."

I thought about the wording "I warn you" and learned that my neighbor needed me giving testimony of Revelation. We are employed to serve the Ministry and the congregation as we have earned ourselves. The ministry does its work with us and we do our work as it written in the Bible for us.

Where is the one with testimony of Revelation that has failed to serve as one with ears to hear what the spirit says to the church. They are in need of God, Jesus son of God, the Ministry of the Bible, the work of the one with ears to hear what the spirit says to the church and the fruit of the labor.

These are like corrupt Ministry of the Bible. God, Jesus Son of God, the Ministry and the Kingdom is needed all working six days and resting the seventh to overcome. Every man is needed young and old that we know and understand what God has said to us of the men that we to be.

For other doctrine, we have one God. God of Heaven and Earth. The Sons that have gone out from the days of Noah need the Bible with the Doctrine of God giving to these Kingdom with Ministry. The generations are written in the Bible for us to know our relationship with Brother that is our neighbor.

I ask that you: 1) Place your hand on the Bible and give Oath of the men and women it is written for us to be in the books of the Bible. The Bible contains the books of the old and new testament.

3) Give the pledge of aligence to the country as the pledge of aligence of the United States.

4) Study the Books of the Bible. Study the Bible as though you were there. Study the Bible as a child attends elementary school. Understand that this country is founded with the Bible. Our Generations before us called upon God and in the way of Jesus Son of God as we have grown. We are one anothers as it is written in the Bible.

5) Every man and our women with us prepare as it is written in the books of numbers and in the way of Jesus Son of God "When the Horn Blows the men raise up".

7) Give rest on the seventh day as it is written in the Bible. It is written that the land will rest that it can be barren that it will rest.

Men and Ministry, A fire for your winter warmth. 1) The offering for the one Lamb has been made. The one with the Books of Moses that need the new testament books made offerings.

2) The Prisons are in need of the Bible the Old and New Testament Books. Our Prisoners are reading the Binding of Books called the new Testament. In doing so they are suffering Jesus Son of God. Give to them a Bible that is work of the Ministry and a father's inheritance for a child. Our prisoners are needed and with the knowledge of the books of the Bible in our courts. The voice of the good and rightous men and women are in need of the Bible and the knowledge of it before the judge. Lord just Hey for with They are needed

3) Brother give rest on the seventh day as it is written. It is written that the land will rest that it can be barren that it will rest.

Lord God Jehovah Begat his Son and cut the root of the Green Tree. Jesus is the son of Lord God Jehovah and Mary mother of Jesus.

Churches,in the way of Jesus son of God remember the way of Lord God Jehovah. Come from the suffering of Jesus son of God.

Churches, It is written is it not, that Lord God Jehovah begat his son and cut the root of the green tree.

Jesus is the son of Lord God Jehovah and Mary mother of Jesus. Lord God Jehovah and Jesus Son of God is written of in the Bible.

Song Writer of the House of David. Song Writer, Write these words for a song "Kingdom with Ministry".

God of Heaven and Earth, God of Hosts give to us as it is written in the Bible for us. Give into our Prisons that we know our guilt as it is written in the Bible. Give to us our Kingdom that is our country with Ministry that in the way of Jesus Son of God remembers the way way of Lord God Jehovah. In Christ we Pray Amen

God of Heaven and Earth, God of Hosts give to us that our son inherit as have we and our father before us, As our generation before us. That they accept as did we Jesus son of God our Master, Savior and Lord. That they go and be baptized in water as did our Master, Savior and Lord and as did we. That they accept Jesus son of God as master, savior and lord as did we. Amen

God of Heaven and Earth, God of Hosts give that our sons and our neighbors sons knows that this is a country built with the Bible. That our sister countries know that they may have us as it is written for us in the Bible and with the doctrine of the Land. Amen

I am a witness of our God, Lord God Jehovah and servant of Lord Jesus son of God. Jesus son of God is my Master, Savior, and Lord. I am Baptized in water. I am Blessed with Eyes to See and Ears to Hear the Spirit. My soul has been saved in the way of the son Jesus son of God.

I am Donald Ray Floyd Jr. the eldest son of Don R. Floyd Sr. and Mary Dee Floyd of Oklahoma, Oklahoma. Born the First day of March 1953, of the calendar of our Lord Jesus Son of God.

I would prefer to go to your Hell than to spend eternity with you in your Heaven, although, if we were to be in opposite places, you may be surprised at where you may end up, if I believed in such things.

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