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Bob E. email message sent to Garner Ted Armstrong:

Modern genetic science has totally debunked the mythical theory of British Israelism. This theory has always required a great leap of faith to believe in, especially as it relates to the United States, which throughout it's history has been an acknowledged melting pot of all races. Now I realize that this blows your whole gig, but so far it appears that much like the pope in Gallileo's day, you are ignoring science. Wouldn't an intellectually honest theologian modify his teaching in the face of new truth, rather than continuing to scare innocent people needlessly? It is possible to preach the gospel without amplifying it with the aid of a new holocaust. That way your followers will be there completely voluntarily, rather than due to psychological duress.

----- Original Message -----

From: Chris Cumming

Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 2:22 PM

Subject: Response to your e-mail

Dear Bob,

Thank you for the e-mail.

I am not surprised that "modern genetic science" has totally debunked the mythical theory of British Israelism.  Man, influenced by Satan, will do anything to keep man from the truth.  Frankly, we do not accept anything that your so-called science has to say on the matter.  We have proved otherwise.  The proof is there.

Having said that, British Israelism is NOT required knowledge for Salvation.  It requires no faith, because it is NOT a faith issue.  You need not even believe it to be saved.  It will however be taught by Christ in the millennium, but that is another subject.

British Israelism is hardly a scare tactic (whatever that is).  The gospel message is Good News.  It does not matter if any one person ever believes the gospel message.  It is not the mission of the church to convince ANYONE.  The mission is to preach it and let the world HEAR it.  God does the rest.  Only God can call a person (John 6:44).  Only God can convince someone of something.  Only God can bring Christ back to this Earth.

Regarding your "innocent people" comment:  Who are they?  No one is innocent.  Christ is NOT coming back to rule with a rod of iron, because people are innocent.  The term is meaningless.

(Multiple Bible Quotations deleted. Quoting the bible to unbelievers is pointless.)

The GOOD NEWS is that EVERYONE who has ever lived will have their opportunity to know all truth, have access to the Holy Spirit and enter into the Kingdom of God with eternal life.  What is scary about that?

You said something about "follower being there completely voluntarily":  There is no such thing.  No one volunteers.  As I stated from John 6:44 above, God calls people, and not humans.  Besides, if you look into the use of psychological duress (and torture), they seldom work ultimately.

Let us know if you have any more questions.

Use my direct e-mail address: sunshiner@worldnet.att.net

Sincerely,

Chris Cumming, minister,
Personal Correspondence

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Bob E

Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 4:44 PM

To: Chris Cumming

Subject: Re: Response to your e-mail

Mr. Cumming:

I did not approach you with materials from the National Enquirer.  The genetic research involving the markers through which heredity is determined is reliable enough soas to be used as evidence of paternity in a court of law.  It is now known, as an example, that Sally Hemmings, an African American slave, is a descendant of Thomas Jefferson.  This, based on shared DNA.  I merely thought that since you are in the truth business, your organization would want to at least factor this into your teachings.  If indeed, Satan has been allowed to corrupt fossil records, alter the speed of light soas to make it appear that stars and constellations are actually more than 6,000 years old, and corrupt DNA, then we are indeed in a sad state of affairs.  Is that what you actually believe?  Wouldn't a loving God want his people to be able to corroborate what he says by what they see around him?  There is a place for faith, but shouldn't science support and corroborate true religion?

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Chris Cumming

Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 6:15 PM

To: Bob E.

Subject: Re: Response to your e-mail

Dear Bob E.,

Thanks for the reply.I will make a few brief comments within the text of your reply, after each paragraph.

Let us know if you have any more questions.

Use my direct e-mail address: sunshiner@worldnet.att.net

Sincerely,

Chris Cumming, minister,
Personal Correspondence

REPLY:

1) I concur with the fact that Sally Hemmings is a descendant of Thomas Jefferson.  The History Channel covered this very case.  This alone does not dissuade me from beliving that the US is of the tribe of Manasseh.  I am not sure you could use DNA technology to prove or disprove British Isrealism.

2) We do not content that the Universe, the planets, the stars or earth is 6,000 years old.  That is absurd according to the scriptures.  There are uncounted years between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2.  It was only the reforming of the surface and the making of those initial plants, animals and man that took place in the 6,000 years.  The earth and the Universe are easily billions of years old.

3) Creation and not man-made science corroborates true religion:

 (Chris' Bible Quotations deleted.  Editor.)

In the ultimate sense, you are correct, when you state that no-one, (with the possible exception of a 1 second old baby), is innocent.  Innocence, or the lack thereof, is not an acceptable excuse for treating one's fellow human being in an unethical way, or with contempt.  Unfortunately, religious people of various persuasions have used this lack of innocence as an excuse to persecute people with differing belief systems, even to the point of starting wars, throughout history.  Scariness is determined by the scaree.  Something which does not scare you or I, could possibly be very scary to someone of a different background.  Those who believe in Nostradamus are scared to death every time a comet (bearded star) is visible from planet earth.  The bottom line is that is is not ethical to scare another person into doing something outside of his or her comfort level.

REPLY:

It may be that various religions treat their fellow human beings in an unethical way or with contempt.  Clearly, many have used persecution.  Most wars are religious wars.  Witness the Crusades.  Witness the Middle East.  However, it is NOT the purpose of this single organization I represent to scare anyone.  The purpose of the gospel is to put people at peace about what is to happen.  The fact that there are going to be some "scary" times ahead (war, pestilence, death) is not of our making.  Mankind is and will make all those scary things.  The Bible prophecies those scary things.  We report those prophecies, but NOT with the aim of scaring anyone, but rather with the idea that they are only temporary.  Further, it would go against the plan of God to treat anyone in an unethical way.  We are talking about people, who will, one day be in the Family of God.  Why would we (or anyone) want to persecute future family members of the Family of God.  We (this organization) is not the one putting them in that Family.  We are not here to put anyone in a church or an organization.  We have no power to convince.

What would truly be scary would be letting people go into what is about to happen without knowledge of 1) it and 2) the salvation and peace beyond that short period of time.

We agree on one of the points which you made:  fear and or pain compliance do not ultimately produce permanent results.

However, by acknowledging this, I'm afraid that you negated one of the points which you were attempting to make.  A holocaust or tribulation will not cause people to turn to God and find salvation.  Hypothetically speaking, if victims thought that God were responsible for their torture, it would be the more human reaction to be angry with that God, whereupon He would be compelled to destroy them.  And, your Bible does state that the all powerful God is not willing that any should perish but that all should have everlasting life.  So, if there is a God, what he wills will come to pass, and we will all, through some process, come to everlasting life.

REPLY:

1) You are correct, holocaust and tribulation will not cause people to turn to God or find salvation.  However, God is not bringing the holocaust and tribulation---MAN IS.  God IS, however, going to allow it so that man will learn one important lesson...

Lesson:  Man cannot exist without God.

 (Chris' Bible Quotations deleted.  Editor.)

This verse is stating the lesson.  Mankind is bringing upon himself his own complete destruction.  Reason:  Man is rejecting God.

2) It is most interesting, but your Hypothetical statement is EXACTLY what is prophecied to happen.  Notice:

 (Chris' Bible Quotations deleted. Bible quotations, to unbelievers, are worthless. )

In these cases, God is bringing these punishments, but He is bringing them because of the sins of mankind.  He is doing it to get man's attention.  God is the one who outlines the 7 Seals and the 7th Seal with its 7 Trumpet Plagues (Rev. 8-9) and the 7th Trumpet:Seven Last Plagues described in Rev. 16., we didn't.  They might be scary to the reader, but he or she needs to understand their purpose and the more important Plan of God, which I have stated to you (wanting all in the Kingdom).

3) You are correct, God is not willing that any perish, however He is talking about the Second and eternal death.  All of those deaths and tribulation of Revelation 8,9 and 16 are not permanet death.  It is important to understand the distinction.

4) You are correct, all will have the opportunity at eternal life and most, by comparision, will take it.  A few, by comparision will not and will be put into the lake of fire or eternal death.  Even this is merciful.

As a seeker of truth, I have severe reservations about the teachings of your organization.  Your response to my questions took a decidedly exclusionist tone.  I do not believe that God is an elitist.  It is self-evident that he wants to include as many people as possible in his Kingdom.   Imperfect humans never give up on their children, and I think we can both agree that they do not get this good quality from Satan.

REPLY:

I am not sure where you are getting an "exclusionist tone".  We are in no way an exclusionist organization.  We do not have to be, based on John 6:44.  God calls people to the church now.  He will call EVERYONE later (excluding those who have already consigned themselves to the lake of fire--few by comparision).  If our message is the Good News that EVERYONE is going to have that opportunity to know all truth and enter the Kingdom of God with eternal life, where is the exclusion?  If our message was that only our members were going to be saved, you would have a case. 

We are an open-arms church and anyone is invited to attend services or to attend any of our Feast of Tabernacles sites around the country and in Europe and Australia.  Members retain their sovereignty.  Each member has to establish their own relationship with God.  No member nor minister stands in the way of that.  Each member is in his or her own Salvation Process and answer only to God.

You are correct, God is not an elitist.  He is also intolerant to sin.  Whereas everyone will have their opportunity to be in the Kingdom, they must obey HIM.

Regarding your "imperfect human parents" analogy:

 (Chris' Bible Quotations deleted.  Editor.)

Note:  Notice the last 4 words..."them that ask him".  Clearly, those who reject God and the Kingdom would not ask for this Holy Spirit.  Clearly those who do ask will be those who wish to obey Him.

 (Chris' Bible Quotations deleted.  Editor.)

I suppose that some might say that God is an exclusionist for demanding obedience.  I would think obedience is essential for anyone desiring to be in the Kingdom.

Thanks for your time, I have enjoyed our discussion.

Sincerely,

Bob

I too have enjoyed our discussion.

----- Original Message -----

From: Bob E

To: Chris Cumming

Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 7:36 PM

Subject: Re: Response to your e-mail

Chris:

A few more thoughts came to mind.  You seem familiar with the Sally Hemmings case, but I don't know whether you've seen the actual study addressing British Israelism specifically.  The details were published on the National Academy of Science's website at www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/97/12/6769 .  You may or may not wish to review it, it is interesting at the very least. (See also HERE)

One problem I have with most religions, is that they tend to single a people out, in nearly Hitlerian fashion, branding them the Master Race, or God's chosen people.  The teaching of British Israelism seems to do this, subliminally, if not overtly.

There is no problem as long as one is able to prove that he or she is from that particular race.  But, unfortunately, often a pecking order is established with indigenous or tribal people usually finding themselves under the chosen race for all eternity.

My final point, is that in your last reply, first you mentioned that man was going to bring on the scary (and who wouldn't be scared!!!) things, but later you mentioned that it was actually God who would be bringing on the hot temps and hailstorms.

So, it sounds like man, God, and even Satan will all be in confluence to produce this!  Art Bell  (if you happen to be a fan) even speculates that the end could come if a giant meteor which could be entering the earth's atmosphere in 2017, collides directly with the earth.  When I was a young boy, I always worried about nuclear holocaust, mostly because if the end came, it meant that I wouldn't be able to do a lot of things which I had planned for my lifetime.  Now, I've done most of those things.  So, if the end comes, it wouldn't bother me as much.  I appreciate you taking the time to give me some of your perspective, and the Bible is really a remarkable period piece as far as literature is concerned, but for me, all of this really strains credibility.  So,I believe that I'll just take the scientific approach and await further evidence.

Thanks, for your help!

Bob

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Chris Cumming

Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 11:02 PM

To: BOB E.

Subject: Re: Response to your e-mail

 Dear Robert,

Thanks for the reply:

I took a look see at that site.  How do they define the term Jews?  There are twelve tribes and Judah (Jews) is but one.  Further, I am not sure I fine their "Subjects and Methods" satisfactory to what they are attempting to prove.  Maybe you could give me some explaination.

Regarding the Master Race comments from your paragraph 2:

I believe I have stated our case regarding these lines.  Neither in the millennial reign of Christ nor in the Kingdom of God will there be a pecking order.  Whatever there is going to be must be perfect, for God is perfect in all His ways.  He made the races and He designed the millennial reign, as well as the Kingdom of God for eternity.  As I said, British Israelism is not a Salvation element or subject.  Salvation is based on character and not race.  Once we are all spirit beings, there is no race.

Regarding your final point, it may be a matter of perspective.  The destruction of man is his own doing.  In other words, the tribulation (wars, pestilence, famine and death) is his responsibility.  Also his responsibility are the punishments promised by God.  In other words, God is not bringing these things to mankind without cause.  Man bears all the responsibility for what is going to happen.

Yes, I know Art Bell and his program.  Have a mother-in-law who listens to every program and gives me a report.  No, I do not agree with the meteor hitting earth.  Nothing like that described in prophecy.  I do feel that we will see nuclear holocaust in our lifetime.  Regardless of how bad it gets, the actual tribulation is only 3.5 years.  Beyond this is eternity.

(Chris' Bible Quotations deleted.  Editor.)

Finally, you are taking the right approach, it sounds like to me.  Wait for further evidence.  One way or the other, it will come.  It is clear that both God and prophecy are going to have their way.  So will the Kingdom.  The interesting thing about prophecy is that its credibility becomes quite apparent AS IT UNFOLDS.  All we need to do is watch.

Let us know if you have any more questions.

Use my direct e-mail address: sunshiner@worldnet.att.net

Sincerely,

Chris Cumming, minister,
Personal Correspondence

From:  Bob E

To: Chris Cumming

Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 10:47 PM

Subject: Two more thoughts.

You probably noticed that the closing of my last email was rather lame.  Actually, I was trying to mask something that was bothering me.  I wasn't going to do this, but I really do need to.  During the time frame in which we were exchanging email, I came upon some rather troubling information on the net.  One was an article by Garner Ted Armstrong entitled  "What is Your Goal?"  In it, Mr. A described certain attributes of the Kingdom of God.  Some of the best times in my life have been spent on motorcycles and listening to some good live rock music.  Now, please don't laugh or think that this is pathetic.  But frankly, if there aren't going to be these things in the Kingdom, I'd rather pass.  Is there any chance that this is just his personal viewpoint?  If so, it seems to indicate a bit less open-mindedness in your organization than what you had shared with me.  I also happen to believe in responsible ownership of firearms.  And, last, it's a really nice thing to have a wife who works.  That way, she's a full partner, and there's more understanding when you compare notes at the end of the day.

The second troubling item which I found on several other sites, was a Geraldo Rivera interview with one Suerae Robertson.

You seem to be an honest and sincere person, and I need to know from you, man to man, if her allegations are true.

Apparently she produced a tape.  This may seem old fashioned, but I believe that any teacher, be they secular, or religious, should be held to a higher standard.   Please don't do a Bill Clinton on me.  I'll respect you more if you tell me the cold hard

truth.


Thanks, once again.

Bob

 

From: Chris Cumming

Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 1:21 AM

To: BOB E.

Subject: Re: Two more thoughts.

Dear Bob,

Thanks for the additional thoughts.

As to the millennial period, I am putting an extensive list together of all the things there will be and won't be in that 1,000 years.  We will post it at the Good News page at the web site.  http://www.garnertedarmstrong.ws/goodnews.htm

What you will see listed there is based on everything we know about the plan of God and what He shows us in the word of God.  It will be more wonderful that anything we could ever imagine.  And remember that this is only for 1,000 years.  Then we have the 2nd Resurrection, in which everyone who ever live and never knew Christ and/or never had the Holy Spirit (were never called as firstfruits) will be given all truth, have access to the Holy Spirit and enter the Salvation Process.  This period will last approximately 100 years.  Most will succeed in their Salvation process.  After that, everyone will be spirit beings and we will, no doubt spread out across the entire Universe which has no end.  God must have some kind of plan if He is taking us to eternity; time without end.

(Chris' Bible Quotations deleted.  Editor.)

The first verse says it; we cannot even imagine the excitement of it all.  His gifts for each of us will be without end.  It has been His plan since the beginning.  Give it a look see before you make a final decision and you WILL be able to do both.

As to the question of whether Mr. Armstrong committed that alleged sin with one Suerae Robertson:  As far as I know....ALL TRUE.  But then, I do not purposely look upon the sins of others (his, yours or anyone else).  Especially repented of sins.  Mr. Armstrong repented for his sins.  The Bible says that David was a man after His own heart, yet this was a man who committed adultery with Bathsheba and had her husband murdered so he could marry her.  This being so, why was he a man after God's own heart?  Answer:  He was a repentant man.  Once a person repents, there is no sin.

A better question you might ask yourself:  Who are these hypocrites who are putting up web sites exposing the repented of sins of others?  Is this what Jesus did with the woman caught in adultery?...

(Chris' Bible Quotations deleted.  Editor.)

Jesus did not post her sins on the town's bulletin board.  Would He have erected a web site?  Should we have your sins and my sins posted on the web site, complete with documents, photos and videos?  Why not everyone's.  Should we add 6+ billion web sites to the web tomorrow?  What purpose would this serve?  We either live by every word of God or we do not and THAT IS SIN.

And, frankly, what is this about holding ministers to a higher standard?  Where is that in the Bible?  We are ALL held to the same HIGH...VERY HIGH standard of the Law.

(Just for Chris' benefit, since he seems to be very selective about the bible verses that he remembers:
"James 3:1    My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation." Garner Ted seeks to be a "master" or a teacher, a leader that god is using to bring people to Him, and he, therefore receives greater condemnation than just an ordinary sinner. 

Here are some more standards for those that seek to rule. As we can see, Garner Ted Armstrong is not even qualified to be a deacon, let alone an Evangelist:
"1 Timothy 3:
1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless."
Editor.)

 

(Chris' Bible Quotations deleted.  Editor.)

Seems very clear that God is no respector of persons, regardless of wealth, position, or race.  What He is looking for is people who will enter the Salvation Process and remain there to death or the return of Christ.  Repentance is a key element of the Salvation Process and probably the less understood or accepted by others.  Repentance is deep sorrow for having sinned.  It is a turning an going toward righteousness and the Law and Principles of God.  As long as humans are human, they will be subject to sin.  This does not give ANYONE license to sin.  God knows the heart and will not tolerate a scam or anyone taking license to sin.

What Garner Ted Armstrong did is and was ABSOLUTELY WRONG.  It was sin.  Fact is, he repented.  He repented before God and all repentance is before God.  If we reject all clergy for sin, we will have NO ministers on the planet. (Now there is a wonderful thought!!! Can that be arranged? Editor) If we reject all humans for sin, we will have NO humans on the planet. (No, it just means that we will not have ANY humans misleading other humans and using the fear of god to control people. Editor)

The only Bible reference for getting rid of a minister is one who is openly sinning, brags about it, refuses correction and will not repent. This is covered in 1 Tim. 5:20-21 and you can read the study at our Bible Studies page here:  http://www.garnertedarmstrong.ws/biblestudies.htm 

(You know what? That is just so stupid. Any member that was caught in the same situations as Garner Ted Armstrong and his sexual escapades, would have been tossed out of the church so fast he would have had his head spinning. But, once ordained as a minister, the only way to get rid of a sinful, rotten man such as Garner Ted Armstrong, is to have him not be repentant. So, before ordination, a deacon or a bishop must be blameless. But, after ordination, he can do whatever he wants, including masturbating on TV and still be god's representative. Okay; I guess I understand now. Editor)

In Matthew 7:15-20 where it talks about false prophets (ministers), it speaks of knowing them "by their fruits".  Clearly "fruits" is not talking about sin.  The definition of "fruit" is "doctrine".  A true minister preaches true doctrine.  A false minister preaches false doctrine.  If "fruits" is to be taken as personal sin, not only do the scriptures not make since, there are no true ministers.

(Chris' thinking here is just completely muddled by his desire to protect his corrupt boss. "Knowing them by their fruits" is obviously talking about knowing them by the results of their lives; knowing them by what good they have produced in their lives, if any. If they have produced ROTTEN fruit, as in the case of Garner Ted Armstrong, they are obviously rotten themselves and not worthy of representing any god. For Chris to twist and rend the scriptures to justify evil and keep his job is unconscionable. Editor)

Further, if sins disqualifies a person from the Salvation Process (which by the way all ministers are in, just like any other called person), then no one will be saved.

(Chris' Bible Quotations deleted.  Editor.)

Question:  What is the guy with the exposed sin web site doing?

(Chris' Bible Quotations deleted.  Editor.)

Question:  When a person repents, is he not forgiven by God?

(Chris' Bible Quotations deleted.  Editor.)

Question:  Is the man with that sin web site full of hate or love?  Is he covering sin or stirring up strifes?

(Chris' Bible Quotations deleted.  Editor.)

Love DOES cover sin.

And what of the person who repents of sin, as did Mr. Armstrong for his?

(Chris' Bible Quotations deleted.  Editor.)

I believe he has reaped mercy (from God) and from loving, true Christians.   Are those who put up those sites without sin?  Are they true Christians?  Do they truly acknowledge God.  Is Mr. Armstrong prospering (in the Work, i.e. is the Work prospering)?  It would seem so.  God is in charge of Mr. Armstrong and as long as he remains repentant, he will prosper and the Work will prosper.

Let us know if you have any more questions.

Use my direct e-mail address: sunshiner@worldnet.att.net

Sincerely,

Chris Cumming, minister,

Personal Correspondence


NOTICE! UPDATE 5/2011

"Into Bed With Garner Ted Armstrong, THE MOVIE"

View Video HERE

See the pudgy, little, tattooed, adulterous creep in all is naked glory(?) cavorting around in the nude, wanking on his little pee-pee. How the mighty have fallen!  

I take no pleasure in this. If the creep would just get out of the religion business, I wouldn't care what he did sexually as long as he wasn't hurting someone.


If you are interested in more information on Garner Money Ted:

Try to find Harry Crews' essay:
"Temple of the Airwaves: A Visit with Garner Ted Armstrong and The World Tomorrow."
Esquire
(December 1976): 108-110, 166, 169-171, 174, 176.

 

 

 

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