Email To The Editor
(Page 63)
(Mail from Kooks, Nuts and Loonies is on another page)
I had a bad relationship with my mother and "the church" (grew up from age 9) was of no help in helping us to "reconcile our differences". My mother just found all the weaknesses within the hierarchy of "the church" (no matter where we moved) to manipulate things to go the way she wanted them to go. She is a very savvy individual, one who I fear very much as a result, especially in the way she raised me "abused" and the way she could successfully yield control of so many people and "leaders/teachers" according to her will.
My family is "rebellious" in nature and deemed by others as being "wild". (not crackers etc. but the kind of people that get in trouble, not rif-raff). These are the kind of people who run the mafia etc. (this is my fear).
It's more dangerous to belong to a church like this than to live out on the streets and deal with poverty/desperate people (poor in spirit). These people are very insecure and the "ministry" is very prideful and vain. Many (most) of the families are poor and I don't know what these ministers have to gain. I don't know how they can live with themselves. I really don't. How they can accept money, how they can reside in WWCG houses and drive WWCG cars and have WWCG kids (model kids). Now when I think about it, it really makes me sick. It's taken me several years to just let go of all the anxiety that has built up, (futility in attending an empty ended church). This church is devoid of good in comparison to just "living in the world". They are judgmental.
I just know the character of my mother and judge the WWCG based on her continued desire to remain and her motivation for remaining there.
Thank you.
I was born and raised in the WWCG. How does one change their fundamental thinking processes that they grew up with. I have tried to do it and think that sometimes I am losing my mind. I am generally O.K. but sometimes I feel absolutely nuts. I know exactly what is wrong with me and what happened, but it's like my mind can't let go. If you have any information on deprogramming children raised in cults, please let me know.
REPLY:
Dan,
First of all, I would recommend you seek professional help. I've been told by people who have done, and, if you get the right therapist, it is very helpful.
Secondly, I would invite you to join The PT forum. Lots of nice people who have been through the very same situation and feelings that you are going through who would be glad to listen to you and give you feedback. We have a lot in your category of growing up in the church.
I think it would help. What have you got to lose?
Editor
I read with great interest your emails to the editor of the Painful Truth website. I found your topic so interesting that I wanted to respond to you myself.
First of all, the fact that you sign yourself as "Gandalf" tells me a great deal about you. You live in a fantasy world. I saw "Lord of the Rings" twice, I'm now reading the books, and I love them. But I'm not going to sign this letter Frodo, Bilbo, or Aragorn. My name is John B, and I live on planet Earth. Maybe it's time for you to move there as well.
The editor and I share almost identical religious philosophies, which we both arrived at long before we ever heard of one another. Everything he says is 98% the same as what I believe (just so you know which direction I'm coming from). Yet people like yourself insist on telling us that we are IN PAIN, we are SUFFERING, we are REACHING OUT.
Don't you GET it? We're not LIKE you! We don't NEED a fairy tale to make our lives worth living. We did sink into the abyss for a few years, got our butts kicked by god's Nazis, and then we got the hell back into the real world. We're okay now. My pain ended the minute I denounced religion. And I denounced religion as soon as I truly understood it.
As for eastern religions, they may be superior in practice to the type we are used to, but they still serve the same purpose -they are a balm to the crippled in spirit. I'm no communist, but Marx was right about one thing -religion IS the opiate of the masses. Give them religion (the promise of a future life) and you can fuck them to death in this life. They'll bend over and take it -and take it -and take it -because things will be "better in heaven".
I could go on for hours, Gandalf, but the bottom line is this: anyone who craves religion has the same fundamental hole in his heart as the addict and the alcoholic. People with holes in their hearts try to plug those holes with a variety of remedies, including sex, drugs, alcohol, adrenaline rushes, an obsession with wealth, and many other forms of self-destruction. When all that fails, or if they are unable to afford those other things, they often "find the Lord" (in whatever form you want to define it). That's where you are, Gandalf. Sitting on your head going "rom-rom" while burning incense and contemplating your navel (wondering why the swirls are clockwise and not the other way around).
If it makes you happy, then go for it. But leave the rest of us alone. We are in a much better place than you are. Just go back to Middle Earth and enjoy the fairy tale. But keep an eye out for those goddamned orcs -they'll bite you in the ass when you're not looking!
John B
I believe I've sent you email in the past thanking you for your web site.
I'm disappointed that the www.hwarmstrong.com now redirects to the painful truth site simply because the herbertwarmstrong site gave me so many laughs with it's irreverence and appropriate amount of respect for herbert.
I was in worldwide from 1st grade (1965) through to about 1995, similar to when I think you stopped attending.
Keep up your efforts in spreading the word about how so many of us feel about the toxic treatment we received from those pompous asses. I haven't heard a single apology from the ministry that toxicly abused me and my friends and am not waiting around for it either.
Have a great day
Cheers
TonyREPLY:
Tony, Thanks for your message. The Graveyard Church of God, which is the site that we all find so amusing, is still around and I have a link to it on my main page. The name, hwarmstrong.com , is merely a tool to be used to help more and more people escape from the cults of god.
Editor
Editor, Please remove my name, John Farmer, from your webpage under the heading "disfellowshipped Little guys". I was NOT disfellowshipped from the WCG. My wife and I "resigned" from our pastorate in April. 2001 to seek fellowship in the local community. Also, kindly remove the name of my former co-pastor, Baron White, whose name also appeared in your list of "D. L. G.'s". We both personally resigned at the same time for the same reasons. Thank you for your prompt attention to this matter.
Also, you have many names on your list of people disfellowshipped, that are currently serving as ministers and district supervisors in the WCG. They are in no way disfellowshipped whatsoever. Amongst your list Neale Earle, Thomas Ecker, Curtis May, Carn Catherwood et.al.
Again, thank you. John Farmer
REPLY:
Mr. Farmer, The list is not of those that have been disfellowshipped from the church. We, as former members who have realized the scam of religion, have disfellowshipped you and your fellow ministerial types from the human race.
Try reading the page before you start complaining about it. You might find it educational.
Now, if you would like your name taken off the list, you will have to have want your name added to the ministerial apology page.
If you feel you have nothing to apologize for, we have no further need of communication. How's that for prompt attention?
Editor
I do not think my father should feel entitled to sign the apology page. He was a pastor in the church, AFTER the changes (if you know anything about WCG, then you should know about that) for 6 months. Damage? My father wasn't there enough to inflict any damage. He travels with his job, and was at church maybe twice a month. He did all he could to help out people, and a lot of the time, we had discussions instead of sermons. Unlike most of the pastors in WCG, my father did not put his own spin on the Bible or give sermons infused with his opinion about what Christians should do, etc. Besides that, he does not even know about your page, and I don't want to tell him because I don't want to upset him. You sound like someone who was deeply scarred by the Church; believe me, I understand. We all were traumatized by the Church, but I guess some more than others. I'm sorry that you still live with this pain after all this time. I know you would like my dad to sign the page, but it's probably not going to happen because I'm not going to tell him about it and upset him.
REPLY:
Your father sounds like someone who would want to sign the page. Three ministers, out of hundreds, felt bad enough to have even associated with this church that they would want to give those people who were harmed by it a sincere apology.
Too bad you want to protect this fragile man who would not hurt a fly. You think that, since he was a minister only "after the changes," that he didn't do any harm. Wrong. Everyone that is still in that church, members and ministers, accepts responsibility, by default, for all the evil that has ever been perpetrated by the previous administrations. There is no escaping responsibility. A church of Jesus cannot just move on with new teaching and leave broken twisted bodies of wounded former members laying in the road behind it. That is not how Jesus would do it.
Now, don't be writing back to me with your pitiful defense of you father or I'll just leave your fragile, helpless, unable to deal with reality, father on the list.
Editor
Thank you for the time and effort you put into the PT. I was a member of the WWCG for over 20 years, until on my own I came to see what was really going on. And this was all while HWA was still healthy and in charge of the church. Of course at that time, no one in their right mind would leave the church. But I could not take the crap any longer and left, much to the disappointment of my wife. By the way my wife........x wife now, went on to spend time in a mental hospital due to trying to live a righteous life while in the church. Of course nothing she ever did was good enough in the eyes of they ministry. But that's another long ugly story I wont go into at this time. She is still a mess today as a result.
I find your approach to the WWCG refreshing, direct and honest. Keep up what you are doing, its a great service to all. Too bad there are so many still so blind that are involved in the WWCG and its break off groups.
Jack
Hello my name is Greg. I'm from Perth western Australia. Has there been anyone from Australia in the story yet cause I have a post traumatic stress disorder from the sexual abuse in the wwcog and need some support.
You are a very sick man is al I have to say, besides ignorant and judgMENTAL! H.W.A knew more on a strand of hair then you know in your whole ignorant body. your apostate site makes me want to puke. But you are not laying at my feet so I'll let the nausia pass.
SINcerely, Greg Smith
REPLY:
Greg,
Thank you for your kind, Christian message. You are just winning me over with your Christ like example of love and caring. I'm sure Jesus is really proud of you.
If you would like to disprove anything on the site, give it a try. My offer is to take anything off the site that can be proven to be untrue.
Keep reading the site, you may just learn something.
Editor
REPLY:
I do NOT "worship" Mr. Armstrong. However, if you study world history you will easily find where the RCC changed the day of bodily rest from the commanded 7th day to the "day of the sun" Satan is the god of this world so it stands to reason that he would have a fake religious system in place. which he does! It is called Catholic/Protestant my friend. I used to be a Sunday church goer.After all, everyone else does it so it must be correct right? I was trained up to believe that when we die we either go to heaven or hell to be tortured for billions of centuries by the god of "love" But then I began to wonder and ask questions that simply could not be answered without causing the Bible to contridict. Such as "The wages of sin is DEATH" and "The soul that sins, IT SHALL DIE." And several other such verses. I do not agree with everything H.W.A. said. like Yahweh taking the "true church" to Petra! or that Eve had a Yellow, White and Black egg. in order for the different races. Who were the people that Cain ! was afriad would kill him when he was expelled from Eden??????????? I do believe he is 100% correct on the "mark of the beast" and when world history is studied along with Daniel 2-5 and 7. and Revelation chapters 13 and 17. it becomes very clear. 1st Jn 3:4 says"sin is transgression of the law" the 10 commandments INFORM us as to what sin is, as well as perfect love towards Yahweh and our neighbor when followed. Loving thy neighbor as thyself and loving god with all your heart are not new commandments. See Lev 19:18 and Deut 6:5 for example. X-Mas is pagan to the core. the X-Mas tree is condemned and is found in Jer 10:2-4. Easter is a heathen fertillity rite and Sun worship. And the Bible does not tell us we are born with an "immortal" soul. The Mother church "Catholic" adopted these superstitions and her "daughter" Protestant's kept those trappings. That is what Revelation 17:5 is telling us. Think about it please. Babylon means "confusion" and the world religion of Christianity teaches just that. in ! Messiah,
Greg, A non christian!!!!!
REPLY:
Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo............................... Woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo...............................
Do not go outside. Stay where you are. Keep your hands on the table.
Some nice men in white suits will be with you shortly.
Editor
Have you seen the article I am attaching? Near as I can tell, this completely debunks the theory of British Israelism, and if you agree, may you will want to have the link on your website. I still know folks who think that it might be true, and this could ease their minds. http ://www.bibarch.com/News/News-Genetic-Brothers.htm
Kathy
New Challenge
to Anglo-Israelism and the
Lost Ten Tribes TheoryJews are the Genetic Brothers of Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese but not to Non-Jewish Europeans
New York, NY - According to a new scientific study, Jews are the genetic brothers of Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese, and they all share a common genetic lineage that stretches back thousands of years. This genetic brotherhood does not include non-Jewish Europeans.
This finding differs from the Anglo-Israelism teachings of the British Israel World Federation, and a number of off-beat American televangelists including Arnold Murray of the Shepherd's Chapel in Gravette, Arkansas; and the WGN Sunday morning Church of God duo Roderick C. Meredith and Gerald Flurry. It also runs counter to the notions of Steven M. Collins in his dizzyingly speculative The "Lost" Ten Tribes of Israel...Found! (Collins 1995), the teachings of Israeli author Yair Davidy in his three books The Tribes: The Israelite Origins of Western Peoples (Davidy 1993), Ephraim (Davidy 1994), and Lost Israelite Identity (Davidy 1996), and the United Church of God's curious new booklet The United States and Britain in Bible Prophecy (Foster 2001).
"Jews and Arabs are all really children of Abraham," says Harry Ostrer, M.D., Director of the Human Genetics Program at New York University School of Medicine, an author of the new study by an international team of researchersF1 in the United States, Europe, and Israel. "And all have preserved their Middle Eastern genetic roots over 4,000 years," he says.
The researchers analyzed the Y chromosome, which is usually passed unchanged from father to son, of more than 1,000 men worldwide. Throughout human history, alterations have occurred in the sequence of chemical bases that make up the DNA in this so-called male chromosome, leaving variations that can be pinpointed with modern genetic techniques. Related populations carry the same specific variations. In this way, scientists can track descendants of large populations and determine their common ancestors. Specific regions of the Y chromosome were analyzed in 1,371 men from 29 worldwide populations, including Jews and non-Jews from the Middle East, North Africa, sub-Saharan Africa, and Europe.
The study, published in the June 6, 2000, issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (on-line May 9, 2000), found that Jewish men shared a common set of genetic signatures with non-Jews from the Middle East, including Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese, and these signatures diverged significantly from non-Jewish men outside of this region. Consequently, Jews and Arabs share a common ancestor and are more closely related to one another than to non-Jews from other areas of the world (see study or obtain PDF Download).
The study also revealed that despite the complex history of Jewish migration in the Diaspora (the time since BCE 556 when Jews migrated out of Palestine), Jewish communities have generally not intermixed with non-Jewish populations. If they had, then Jewish men from different regions of the world would not share the same genetic signatures in their Y chromosome.
"Because ancient Jewish law states that Jewish religious affiliation is assigned maternally, our study afforded the opportunity to assess the contribution of non-Jewish men to present-day Jewish genetic diversity," says Michael Hammer, Ph.D., from the University of Arizona, Tucson, who is the lead author of the new study. "It was surprising", he says, "to see how significant the Middle Eastern genetic signal was in Jewish men from different communities in the Diaspora."
In 1998 BibArch called for a scientific approach to study of the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (see Who Are the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel from the Nov./Dec. 1998 issue of Perspectives). Why? The heated debate as to whether or not the Lost Ten Tribes of Israel compose the biblical and therefore the prophetic identity of the United States, Britain, and several European countries, continues to seethe. While the findings of historians, linguists and archeologists are of great import they have not established with any certainty that Americans of northern European descent, the British, and northern European peoples are indeed the descendants of the Ten Lost Tribes of the House of Israel. While the study is not conclusive in explaining the fate of the Ten Lost Tribes it is a giant step in the direction of bringing scientific evidence to bear.
My Name is "Big Jack" & I'm an alcoholic.
I am a member of Alcoholics Anonymous. I am neither ashamed or proud of that fact but very thankful. Unlike others I've read here I remain a member not because my life is out of control & unmanageable but to maintain the manageability & control that God has given to me through AA. If I have taken what God has so freely given me & not been willing to give back, I would be the same miserable person I was before as a drunk.
I looked for, and thought I'd found, God for 30 + years all the while practicing my alcoholism freely. I became a member of the WCG in 1966 & started working for Ambassador College less than a year later. Unlike others that learned to drink from parents or the church I brought my well established habit along with me. I actually slowed way down during the first year or two until, while counseling for marriage I was told I was probably bound to my first wife that I had married illegally in Mexico at the age of 17. So living in this unnatural state I returned to my always available friend, alcohol.
That is when my double life started, one of being a nice fellow working for the College as a "eunuch" for the work's sake , the other being an alcoholic lecher, practicing my disease in the dark rooms & bars mainly in the San Fernando Valley of Los Angeles. As time went on the fear of the unpardonable sin started beating up my emotions & what was left of my spiritual life.
Finally, after 6 years of waiting for the final decision to come down from the "doctrinal committee" with my drinking continuing to get greater I got the news I was bound. Even though my wife( who waited single for me all this time) & I left the church on our own my drinking took a turn for the worse. I drank for almost 40 years & lived through it. But my disease & I took prisoners, my family & loved ones. No physical abuse but a lot of emotional & not being there when I was needed.
I never blamed God for my disease. For one reason, I didn't know I had a disease. I just wanted to drink & live in such a way that wouldn't hurt people, especially my family. I finally decided to try AA. It was a rude awakening. These people looked like they had real problems & I got the point that they weren't going to be able to teach me how to drink "normally". It sounded like they were telling me my only hope was to quit drinking.........at least for today. But I knew I needed help so I would give it a try. My first step to sanity was to accept the fact that "I was powerless over alcohol and my life had become unmanageable".
I went through the steps & they seemed to be working. In the remote area of Bullhead City, Arizona, I remained sober as a functioning member of AA & things seemed good. But eventually I let a few misunderstandings & personalities get in the way. I took a drink and the hell started all over again, at a very accelerated pace. Three years later after a lot more pain to me & my loved ones I went humbly back to the rooms that had saved my life before. This time I had to let go of my old ideas, including my beliefs in God. When I was willing to do that God gave me a brand new life including Him & His Son, Jesus. I haven't had a drink now for over 4 years & if I keep it in today I won't find the need to drink, .....today. I pray to God that I die sober & still helping as many other drunks trudge a wonderful new life of sobriety. Unlike ES above when I here some negative things being said in the periphery of a meeting I leave. I would tell her to get a good sponsor that really cares for her life. They are there but sometimes you have to look hard. Eventually you will have more to offer than what your needs have been. Be willing to share & give. That's when the miracles start to become obvious.
I have found, for me, I can't function in organized religion. All religious love is conditional & that being the doctrinal belief system that divides us all. I am loved unconditionally by God & believe that's because it was done once, for all & it depends on what Jesus did & not what I do. But I don't demand one other person believe like I do. I better not or I wouldn't have many friends. I know I don't know it all. But everything I believe allows me to fellowship with you, soberly. I hope yours allows you all to fellowship with me. In most cases I think not. Bottom line, without sobriety I would be the enemy of you all & myself.
In closing:
"God grant us the serenity to accept the things we cannot change, courage to change the things we can and the wisdom to know the difference".
Dear editor:
Can you explain something to me? I know you've noticed this, too, because you've commented on it in the past.
Why is it that the most fundamental defenders of Herbert W. Armstrong and the WCG are all so FUCKING ILLITERATE? Not only can they not spell (lots of people can't), but they don't use punctuation, they write run-on sentences, and often don't even put spaces between words. Is this the kind of person that Jesus calls? I know the Bible says God calls the weak and the weird, but this is EMBARRASSING!!!
[shaking my head in wonder]
John B
One of the things I am finding in your website is that much of it seems to be written by people who cannot yet come to the point to where they admit that they made a mistake by allowing themselves to become involved with the WCG. It has taken me a long time to admit that I had made a mistake no, two mistakes and almost a third one.
The first step of freedom is to proclaim I was wrong. The next step, after learning what we can from the mistake, is forgetting the mistake and begin working toward the purpose for which we were placed here.
In this trek we must realize that religious trappings (Bible study and reading, prayer, observances, and so forth) are only tools to keep us focused on God or, if you prefer, the greatest Good for human life. The trouble is that many forget that these are only tools and begin to worship them over our Creator. All of us face this risk.
The test is whether we really love or whether our so-called "love" is just a hateful attempt to control others. Only as we honor each person by allowing and helping him to develop in his own way can we be said to love.
Many who have left WCG will end back up in another cult like the WCG. There is "comfort" or "security" there that many crave. Sadly, they will be abdicating their legacy as human beings for an illusion of peace.
If we want to live, we must impose strict honesty upon ourselves. Only that will open the doorway to the life all of us seek. For the first time, we begin to see ourselves as we are as opposed to what we like to think of ourselves being.
It is time to bury the Armstrongs and the WCG and its daughters and turn our attention to whatever we inwardly understand our purpose is. James description of true religion, helping those who cannot help themselves and living to help others (but not be a busybody), is a good way to live, as long as we do not load it down with a bunch of junk that obscures our goal.
While not very organized, I hope many will think about these points.
Jerry
REPLY:
YOU WROTE:
it seems to be written by people who cannot yet come to the point to where they admit that they made a mistake by allowing themselves to become involved with the WCG
REPLY:
Well, I don't see that at all. I see people pissed off that they were stupid enough to let themselves be deceived by con-men. I see people that are a lot smarter now than they were before. I see people very grateful to learn the truth about the con-men ministers so that they no longer are able to be misled by someone trying to sell them salvation and heaven.
YOU WROTE:
The first step of freedom is to proclaim I was wrong.
REPLY:
No, the first step to freedom is to realize that you have been conned by a bunch of religious hucksters.
YOU WROTE:
The next step, after learning what we can from the mistake, is forgetting the mistake
REPLY:
Well, that would be just incredibly stupid. Then you would keep making the mistake over and over again. Better to remember the mistake and not repeat it. Maybe, if you had remembered, then you would not have made the second and third mistakes.
YOU WROTE:
and begin working toward the purpose for which we were placed here.
REPLY:
Oh, I see, you have some kind of direct contact with the invisible, hidden, uncaring "god." You know something that nobody else in the world knows. You have proof of this. Yeah, right. Let me tell you, you may believe this "purpose for which we were place here" but I will guarantee that you have absolutely NO PROOF as to what you believe. You just want to believe it, so you do.
YOU WROTE:
(Bible study and reading, prayer, observances, and so forth) are only tools to keep us focused on God
REPLY:
They are tools all right; tools to control your mind so that you cannot think for yourself. Typical of all cults. Your cult is no different from any other cult.
YOU WROTE:
If we want to live, we must impose strict honesty upon ourselves. Only that will open the doorway to the life all of us seek. For the first time, we begin to see ourselves as we are as opposed to what we like to think of ourselves being.
REPLY:
Blah, blah, blah. Do you speak English? What a bunch of spiritualized bullshit. I perceive that you are a "minister" or a minister wannabe.
YOU WROTE:
It is time to bury the Armstrongs and the WCG and its daughters
REPLY:
Well, you may want to bury them but they are still around using and misusing good, god-fearing people and stealing their money. What people need is a good dose of the truth about this cult and that is what they will get at The Painful Truth website.
YOU WROTE:
turn our attention to whatever we inwardly understand our purpose is.
REPLY:
You will not be able to prove any purpose for this life. Only guesses or wants. No proof at all.
YOU WROTE:
helping those who cannot help themselves and living to help others
REPLY:
Well, thanks. That is what The Painful Truth is all about. In the face of all you spiritually superior beings, I stick around, being called names and lied about just so I can help free people by giving them the painful truth about Armstrongism and religion in general.
This website is about History and Education. If that bothers you, I would suggest you stay away.
This site seeks to free people from the slavery of Religion. If that bothers you, I would suggest you stay away.
I've thought about your points. Now, you think about my points. And, do me one favor, prove to me that there is a god that cares about mankind. See my Acts of God page and show me that god. Otherwise, leave me alone.
Editor
Good day to you
Yes, I was another WCG member, was and still is. I was browsing through your site and I must say, you have done a good job in laying it out simple and uncluttered. To be honest, I actually gained more information from your FAQ section then anything else.
In the past, in the WCG, we were never allowed to think for ourselves. We were told what the bible meant, and were not encouraged to question doctrines or teachings. We were slapped with a heavy dose of legalism, procedures and bible study.
Studying the bible was always made complicated there were always these weird cross references and always needed some kind of light shone upon it by the upper echelons with Herbert W. Armstrong.
I find your page refreshing as it gives me a chance to "Think" for myself. The name "Painful Truth", although it hurts a little, is a good one since this stuff is true, it really did happen, and it hurts it's PAINFUL
I read the one about the girl who asked you to change the name of the site. And you are right, she's only 17, so give her a break, hey?!?!?
I also read in your NOTICE about sending emails that should I want to disprove anything in your site, I would need to quote and locate it exactly.
I also read that this site is for people who have been affected by Herbert W. Armstrong / WCG, and I also read the section of "What would Jesus do?" in the FAQ section.
If you do not believe in Jesus and don't ever want to, close this email and delete it NOW!!!!!!!!!!!! If you do believe in him, read on.
If you believe in Jesus, you would know that he died an extremely painful death to pay the price of the sins of this world. Now, before you think to yourself "I know where this guys going", give me a chance. I have no authority, maturity or experience to judge if the ministers and administration is really sorry for what has been done, or are just worried about where there next paycheck will come from. That is there own problem.
I however, forgive as Jesus forgives that still does not mean what they did was right, or that I need to be abused any more. We were a cult. Fact. We Hurt people. Fact. We lied, twisted the truth and pretty much did everything your website says we did. Fact.
I like your website, and have visited many times. But I would like you to seriously think about this:
1) No one has the right to judge, revenge is God's, and God's only. 2) Jesus would not do what you say he would do in the FAQ section. In fact, he did the opposite. 3) Take what WCG did. Take all the sin since Jesus died (including WCG's sin). DO YOU GET IT YET? Sin is sin, Jesus died for it. 4) Like I said, I cannot judge, but for those who are still members and ministers in the WCG who are GENUINELY sorry lets support them as opposed to dragging them down.
Again, if you do not believe in Jesus, so be it I am not here to judge you. If, however you do, think seriously about your fate. If you do, you would know there is more to life than maintain a website that promotes anger, that re-visits old hurts, that makes it difficult for members and ministers of the WCG to carry on.
When you stand before God one day and he asks you, "Tell me, why did you mock a church that I changed from a cult into a true, living Christian fellowship?", what are you going to say, because by then, your website and ideas will not mean much.
As much as you might not want to believe this, Jesus Christ came to earth for people just like us, people who sinned and are trying to do right.
Kind Regards
John
Member of the WorldWide Church of God South Africa
REPLY:
John,
YOU WROTE: If you do believe in him, read on.
REPLY: Although I do not believe in your Jesus, I am still capable of reading and answering your questions. And, I can do a better, more logical job of it than you can.
YOU WROTE: If you believe in Jesus, you would know that he died an extremely painful death
REPLY: I would challenge you to prove that to me. In fact, even easier but just as impossible, prove to me that Jesus ever existed.
YOU WROTE: I have no authority, maturity or experience to judge if the ministers ......
REPLY: Why not? You can think can't you? You can look at the evidence and make a decision in every other thing, why can't you make a decision in this matter? Has religion tied your brain behind your back?
YOU WROTE: I however, forgive as Jesus forgives that still does not mean what they did was right, or that I need to be abused any more.
REPLY: Well, didn't Jesus say that, if someone hits you on one cheek, you should let him hit you on the other? Seems to me you are not willing to follow Jesus completely here.
YOU WROTE: No one has the right to judge
REPLY: That is so wrong. How would you ever be able to decide right from wrong? How would you separate good people, who will not harm you, from bad people who only want to harm you and use you? Judging is the only way you can develop your character.
YOU WROTE: 2) Jesus would not do what you say he would do in the FAQ section. In fact, he did the opposite.
REPLY: I'm afraid you have lost me here.
YOU WROTE: Sin is sin, Jesus died for it.
REPLY: First you have to prove that there ever was a Jesus. Then you have to figure out whether you would want to worship such an evil god that he would kill his own son. Couldn't do it any other way? Sorry god, you are a loser and don't deserve the idolization of your ignorant followers.
YOU WROTE: 4) Like I said, I cannot judge, but for those who are still members and ministers in the WCG who are GENUINELY sorry lets support them as opposed to dragging them down.
REPLY: Look. I do not drag them down. When they chose to associate with an evil organization, they take on all responsibility for all the sins of the past. See my FAQ #36. They drag themselves down by choosing to be members.
The only way to demonstrate that GENUINE sorrow would be to give up the MONEY. They can't do it. Their god is money. The one way to prove that they are a church of Jesus would be to use the money to help those that they harmed. Give it all back to those they stole it from. Then, start over with NOTHING. Let Jesus grow the church again, if they really trust in Jesus.
Do you think that your Jesus gives your "new" church legitimacy without it going back and righting whatever wrongs it has done in the past? Do you think that Jesus would use the blood money, milked out of poor, ignorant people, to grow the church bigger instead of helping the people that were damaged irreparably by that same church? How do you people sleep at night? Have you no consciences at all? Oh, I remember. Jesus. He is your excuse for everything. "Sorry brother. We harmed you? Take it to Jesus. He will help you. He is the answer for us. We have all this money of yours and we owe it all to Jesus. Go to Him. He will help you too."
YOU WROTE: think seriously about your fate
REPLY: Sorry, I don't maintain this website out of fear. I do it to educate and help people. Who will god punish more, myself who is only telling the truth and making no money from this, or those who use god to dominate and abuse people and steal their money? I am seriously not concerned at all about facing any god in any afterlife. Any god that would punish me for helping people to use their brains to figure out the best way to worship IT, is not worthy of anybody's worship.
YOU WROTE: When you stand before God one day and he asks you, "Tell me, why did you mock a church that I changed from a cult into a true, living Christian fellowship?", what are you going to say, .....?
REPLY: First of all, you have changed only from one type of cult, one that followed the man, Herbert W. Armstrong, into another type of cult that follows the man, Jesus. You are still a cult and you can't even prove that this man, Jesus, even existed. At least those who worship Herbert W. Armstrong know that he did exist.
But here is what I will say when I stand before your evil god who will zap me for using my brain: "Uh, god, where the hell were you when all we wanted to do was worship you and you let these evil people mislead us? Why did you hide yourself when so many people have this desire to want to follow you? Where were you when so many people have prayed to you but get no answers that are of any value? Why has there never been any genuine proof that you ever cared about mankind? How can an evil Christian be more loved by you than a good non-Christian? Why did you not help those blinded people that still remain in the Worldwide Church of God and its' daughters, to see that they are still members of a corrupt organization? Why couldn't you come up with a religion that intelligent people would be able to accept? Why is it up to me, the lost child, to find you, the parent figure who knows right where I'm at? I could ask you more, god, but you can read my mind and you know what I am thinking so lets just get on with this revenge that only you are able to take. If you are the god of the Bible, I am glad that I will not have to spend eternity with you because that god is downright evil."
YOU WROTE: As much as you might not want to believe this, Jesus Christ came to earth
REPLY: All I'm asking for is some proof. Is that asking too much? Well, I guess it is. I am no longer able, in good conscience, to turn off my brain, therefore I can never be a Christian again.
Thankfully.
Editor
REPLY:
I thank you for replying to my message, you have cleared up some misconceptions I had about your website (and yourself).
I see now that you run this website, not based on the Bible or Jesus, but based on logic, truth facts, and a desire to show people what to do.
I apologize for ramming my Jesus down your throat, I am not sure who or what god you serve, but you have every right to do so.
I was perhaps reading your website in the light of: "How can someone who believes in [the same God as me] write such hateful things?". If you did believe in my Jesus and God, you wouldn't, but you don't so you do - I am not judging you for this, you have or obviously know a lot of people that were hurt (and still are) by Herbert W. Armstrong and WCG - that I can fully understand.
And, where you say we went from one cult (Herbert W. Armstrong's cult) to another, being the cult of Jesus. You would be right in saying this, in that I believe that any man made organization a cult. And I suppose this is where we will differ, since you don't believe in Jesus, is that Jesus' church is not limited to one church organization. Any person or group that follows Jesus' way is a true believer or church.
Anyway, you like facts, and without trying to seem as if I am trying to lesson blame or the like, here are some facts (I did not suck these facts out my thumb)
In the late 70's and early 80's, the WCG used to pull in about $220 000 000 per year. Today they pull in about $25 000 000
I found an interesting website : www.hoselton.net which has every single letter from the 30's to the 80's that Herbert W. Armstrong sent out to the members. You will see that in every letter he uses God and the fear of death as a tool to drain as much money, time and commitment (but mainly money) from the members.
Today, members are not expected to tithe, or give money. Offerings that are made are made voluntarily. We are not forced to give or threatened of we are.
And, I must say, I agree to a large extent about you statement about giving the money back and starting from scratch, letting our Jesus grow the church. Maybe we are just to cowardly, or are lacking in faith, but I think the day this happens would be quite a thing!!! Although I believe it would work.
Anyway, before my boss craps me out for doing this instead of work I must go. I hope we can correspond some more, as you have some interesting views on things - and hey, we don't have to talk about Herbert W. Armstrong and WCG - you like computers (I am assuming you do. You would not have any info on 3d math's - as I am trying to create a 3d engine in Visual basic.
Anyway, have a good one - I hope to hear from you soon.
Kind Regards
John
REPLY:
YOU WROTE: I am not sure who or what god you serve
REPLY: I would consider my way of thinking more towards the Deist point of view since nobody can present me with any evidence of a god that is involved with mankind at all. I'm still waiting for someone to do that for me. Absolutely NOBODY has even tried yet. Why is that? Well, it is because the people that will actually think about it can't come up with anything. Period.
YOU WROTE: "How can someone who believes in [the same God as me] write such hateful things?".
REPLY: I guess I don't see anything hateful on my website. Is truth hateful? Is history hateful? Is using your brain hateful? I've never considered myself or anything that I have written on the PT site to be hateful. You don't see me killing multiple millions of people in a worldwide flood. You don't see me sending my "chosen people" off to kill men, women and children, even animals. You don't see me telling men that they can treat women as though they are slaves and property.
You don't see me looking forward to a Great Tribulation where multiple millions of people will die, but you see many Christians looking forward to it and praying for it to come soon so that they will soon be in charge of this world. You don't see me burning witches at the stake. You don't see me involved in any Inquisitions or Crusades, killing and torturing millions of people in the name of the Christian god. You don't see me fighting any wars in the name of my god. You don't see me being hateful and intolerant to those of other sexual persuasions than my own. Etc........
And, please spare me the tired "but they were/are not real Christians" routine. You say: "Any person or group that follows Jesus' way is a true believer or church." These people did/do think that they follow Jesus' true way. Everybody makes mistakes, right? You are not completely right in your interpretation of the WAY to follow Jesus. Jesus is not going to disqualify you because you are doing your best to worship him. Well, these other Christians are following Jesus the best that they can too and it includes hatred and killing. I'm sorry but this whole Jesus religion/business is corrupt. And you label me as "hateful?" Give me a break.
YOU WROTE: In the late 70's and early 80's, the WCG used to pull in about $220 000 000 per year. Today they pull in about $25 000 000
REPLY: Now that makes me feel pretty good. I can only hope that The PT has helped reduce that total and that it will continue to diminish as more and more people find out what a corrupt organization it was and is. Even though the income has diminished, I doubt that the salaries of the upper echelon of the hierarchy have gone down at all. They can keep this thing going for a good long time by just firing the lower class minions and try to convince the status seeker members to do the work voluntarily. In the end it will be just Joe Jr. and his wife running the Plain Truth Ministries out of a small office and raking in enough dough from stupid people to live very easy lives. As P.T. Barnum once said: "There is a sucker born ever minute." It seems as though there are always idiots willing to follow a huckster.
YOU WROTE: Maybe we are just to cowardly, or are lacking in faith, but I think the day this happens would be quite a thing!!! Although I believe it would work.
REPLY: You are more of a Christian than these so-called leaders. Why would you bother to associate with such people? Why waste your time and money?
YOU WROTE: You would not have any info on 3d math's as I am trying to create a 3d engine in Visual basic.
REPLY: Sorry, can't help you there.
Keep reading the PT. Facts, truth and people that can think are things that cults hate.
Editor
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