The Painful Truth About The Worldwide Church of God

Email: Sweet and Sour
(Page 31)

(Mail from Kooks, Nuts and Loonies is on another page)


1/30/00
Hi,

I stumbled onto the internet yesterday and just for the fun of it put in herbert w armstrong. I read and read stuff that shocked me.

I used to be a member of the Worldwide Church of God since I was 18 years old. I am now 52. I was deeply into it from the late 60's thru the 80's. I believed EVERYTHING they said....every single word. I gave them so much of my money while I went without. I cried and cried yesterday and today as I read and am still in the process of reading. I had NO IDEA all that stuff was going on behind my back....I was so stupid I cant believe it.

While I was a rock solid member and really deeply enmeshed in the church the only thing that bothered me severely was when at one of the feast of tabernacles, Herbert Armstrong made an appearance and I was taken aback by how the crowd reacted. They deified the man and that disturbed me ... They acted as if god himself had just arrived...and I was deeply bothered by that and I slowly loosened myself from the church until I finally left. I made a minor attempt to go back several years ago but was not happy with the experience and never went back again.

I am so hurt over all I've learned was going on. I feel like such a fool. I did without food sometimes in order to send him money that he said he needed because I wanted to help god and be a good Christian.

I bummed rides to work while sending enough money that I could have had a decent car on the road... I didn't wear makeup because the church said id be a whore...I gave up my fianc,e because the church forbid marriage to anyone outside the church.

When I was upset about something traumatic in my life, I wrote to my local minister who wrote back saying only how many times I had used the word "I" in my letter (he actually counted) and that meant that I was self centered, self absorbed, self, self, self and a sinner for being so into myself. I was a young girl looking for guidance but was made to feel like a piece of garbage for using the word "I" in a letter.

 I appreciate all the info...as much as it hurts to know all that they did and how stupid stupid, stupid I feel.

I thank you

Oh and I forgot to say how deeply I regret that my daughter grew up never once in her life having a Christmas. Two years ago I brought in a tree and we had Christmas for the first time in her life and for the first time in over 32 years for me.

When I think how my life could have been SO VERY DIFFERENT all those years of being hoodwinked and mentally raped and robbed. I'm not just sad beyond belief...but angry and embarrassed and depressed and all kinds of stuff.....I wish we could live our lives over...you have no idea.

Name Withheld


 Ed

This may be the final part of our discussion because I think that we are unlikely to resolve our differences. I'll leave the decision as to whether to proceed further up to you, and I won't bother you again unless you reply to this mail. If I don't hear from you again I'd like to thank you for taking the time to read and answer my points. If you care to read on I'd like to present a few closing remarks and comments.

Someone once said, "If there were no God, people would have to invent one." It is a loaded statement but I think it still makes a valid point. Many people, and I include myself, look around the world and see nothing but pain and suffering, inhumanity and injustice. Some people apparently enjoy life, or at least part of it, but many millions must regret that they were ever born. It is little wonder that people ask questions like, "Why am I here?", or "What is life all about?" They must wonder when, or if, the misery is going to end. Even those who appear to do well must wonder if it's all worth it we all have to die, and we can't take anything with us, right?

The sad fact is that those who put their trust in other people to solve the problems of this world are going to be bitterly disappointed. All of recorded history bears this out. In a closer-to-home example I have sometimes said, "So the government is going to solve the crime problem, eh?" The government can't even prevent the crime in my own street, never mind the country or, better yet, the whole world. I personally have no faith in the promises of political organizations, 'save-the-world' movements, or even the countless religious organizations. All have one thing in common, when it comes to putting this world to rights all are equally useless. The simple historical fact is that people do not have the knowledge, the wisdom, or the power to do anything about the problems that plague this world. I'm even convinced that the majority don't even give a damn.

Putting the Bible aside, and I can do this, I have often wondered if there is a creator, or creators. I have a scientific background and I am certain that this Universe, and everything in it, could not have come about by mere chance. There is a more probability of a wristwatch appearing spontaneously as the result of some random chemical reaction than there is of any form of life appearing in the entire Universe. This is not just a trite statement; it is based on real mathematical probabilities. Just consider how much simpler a wristwatch is than any living form and you may get my point. This is why I personally believe that there are forces at work outside of our own physical Universe. Call these forces 'God', or anything you like, but I believe that this Universe is the product of design, which then requires the existence of a designer, or creator.

But perhaps we do not disagree on the points this far. Maybe the real issue is that if we personally assume, or deduce, the existence of one or more 'creators' does this mean that the God described in the Bible is the sole creator that he claims to be? After all, not all people who believe in the existence of one or more creators have chosen to regard the God of the Bible as the one and only source of all creation. In your case this must be true since this God does not even exist. This really takes us back to the opening saying, "If there were no God, people would have to invent one" In my case I believe that a creator must exist, and I have freely chosen to regard the God described in the Bible as that creator, which also means that I must reject all others. Let me now explain briefly why I have chosen to accept the God of the Bible.

In my own case, and I can not speak for others, it was because of the contents of the Bible itself. Surprisingly I am able to read the Bible as a BOOK, and I question everything that I read in this book. I ask myself, and others, whether the material I am reading is substantiated historical fact, whether it is scientifically accurate in terms of our current knowledge, and if it all makes any sense at all. My specific area of interest is in the HUMAN BEHAVIOUR described in the Bible. This should appeal to you because we both appear to hold the view that people, and I make no exceptions, are inherently EVIL. But this also raises a tricky question, "What, exactly, is meant by EVIL?" I think that we both use the term 'evil' to describe human behaviour which results in the pain and suffering, and in the inhumanity and injustice, that is at the root of our email exchanges. In fact you have also applied the term 'evil' to the God who does not exist (please forgive the sarcasm).

What I really want to know is who, or what, determines exactly what is good and right, and what is bad, wrong, or evil? Can I turn to other people, whether wise or foolish, for definitions of good, bad and evil? The answer is no because I've already mentioned that I do not put my trust in other people - they are no better, and no worse, than you and me. Many refuse to acknowledge that there is anything wrong in this world, and few (if any) can do anything substantial to right the wrongs that they perceive.

 You see, Ed, it is my view we can not trust any rules and regulations which originate with the people of this world. The sad fact is that, left to our own devices, we are clueless. Who said it was wrong to murder another person? Who said that stealing is unacceptable? Who said that exceeding the speed limit in a built-up area is wrong? The only common factor I can find in these examples, and many more, has something to do with the harm that such actions can inflict on other people - many of whom are referred to as 'innocents'. Some might argue that human beings, by their very nature, have some form of in-built, instinctive understanding of the difference between right and wrong. Do such people include Hitler and HWA?

But then, who did decree that it is wrong to harm other people? One thing is certain in my mind; the 'who' to which I am referring can not be another person or group of people. If this were the case then Hitler was right, HWA was right, Attila the Hun was right, and every other person who has inflicted untold misery on others was right.

My earnest contention is that we can not find meaningful definitions of right and wrong, or good and evil, from any human source. This is, for me, where the Bible comes on to the scene.

As far as I am concerned there is something 'right' about the Christian message. I spent countless hours trying to find the 'loopholes' in the Bible - those little areas in which I might indulge myself as I see fit - but I came up empty. Surely, I thought, I could claim self-defence, or rightful vengeance, if someone harms my family or me? Surely I can hate someone if I like? Yet the Bible teaches that hate and vengeance are 'wrong'. Many have said that the Bible is merely the product of a number of 'wise' men. Really? Then where is this wisdom today? In any case, even 'wise' men are people and so can not be the source of any meaningful definitions concerning right and wrong - whether wise or not they were people and, as such, can have no better definitions of right or wrong than you or me.

So my conclusions, and they are probably mine alone, is that there must be a creator and that the definitions of right and wrong, good and evil, as explained in the Bible (and I mean the BOOK) reveal a wisdom which goes far above and beyond the reach of people, regardless of their estimated levels of 'wisdom'. Much later I put the two together and now believe that the wisdom which I have perceived in the pages of the Bible came directly from the creator, even though human hands were responsible for writing the words.

May I conclude by saying that I truly respect your views. One thing I have learned about all people is that they can and do make many mistakes. Even now I freely admit that I can be wrong, which also allows to me to accept that you can be right. One major difference, it seems, is that we may acquire our understanding of good and evil from different sources.

Best regards

Martin

Reply:

 Martin:

You wrote:

But perhaps we do not disagree on the points this far.

 Reply:

We don't, for the most part.

_________________________

You wrote:

I ask myself, and others, whether the material I am reading is substantiated historical fact

 Reply:

I have said that there are many things in the Bible that are true. That does not make it anything other than a book that may have some historical accuracy. I would say that a book written or inspired by God would have to  have NO historical inaccuracies.

____________________________________

You wrote:

whether it is scientifically accurate in terms of our current knowledge

 Reply:

Now you have a problem if you think the bible is scientifically accurate. And, any God that cannot inspire accuracy in a scientific way in his very own book, is a pretty weak god. I would think that there would be things that were mysterious to those in the past that can only be seen by us today because of our scientific knowledge, but it is just not so. The bible's accuracy is disproved by science.

__________________________

You wrote:

In fact you have also applied the term 'evil' to the God who does not exist (please forgive the sarcasm).

 Reply:

Now where did I ever say that a "God" does not exist? I said that "the god of the Bible does not exist." Big difference there.

____________________________________

You wrote:

But then, who did decree that it is wrong to harm other people?

 Reply:

I don't need God or a book to tell me that it hurts people when one of them is killed, just to use an extreme example. I can look at the pain on people's faces when they mourn one of their loved one's deaths to know that, all over the world, it hurts people to lose a loved one. So it must be wrong to harm other people by killing them. So then it must be wrong to do whatever is a little less than killing them and so on down to the supposedly smaller things that hurt people, such as stealing from them, lying to them, stealing their wife's or husband's affection, etc.

__________________________________

You wrote:

Some might argue that human beings, by their very nature, have some form of in-built, instinctive understanding of the difference between right and wrong. Do such people include Hitler and HWA?

 Reply:

They may have at one time but their overpowering need to exalt their own "self's" overcame what may be an instinctive notion of right and wrong or may be a parental teaching. They started out doing evil things and, by their self-justification, became evil personified.

I direct you to my webpage people.htm regarding the book People of the Lie. Very good book describing evil people and how they get there.

_______________________

You wrote:

My earnest contention is that we can not find meaningful definitions of right and wrong, or good and evil, from any human source.

 Reply:

I'm sure you don't really mean that you cannot tell an evil person or an evil deed if you did not have the Bible to tell you so.

____________________

You wrote:

Yet the Bible teaches that hate and vengeance are 'wrong'.

 Reply:

The Bible is very contradictory. Its okay for God to hate or take vengeance or for Him to "use" his nation to do it. Or for them to write a book where their God "tells them" to kill these people. How many people do you believe today when they tell you that God spoke to them and told them to kill someone? If a nation writes it in a book, then it must have happened that way.

____________________

You wrote:

(the bible) reveals a wisdom which goes far above and beyond the reach of people

 Reply:

I would suggest then, that you have not read a lot of other books, other than the bible. There is some wisdom in the bible but there is wisdom in many other books too. Doesn't prove that a god wrote any of them. There are many very wise people in this world, past and present.

________________________

You wrote:

now believe that the wisdom which I have perceived in the pages of the Bible came directly from the creator

 Reply:

The whole thing has to come from him or none of it is. I offer you my Bibliolatry pages as proof that the bible is not from god.

But I think you are right, we have pretty much wore out this  subject. I appreciate your right to your opinion and also appreciate that you can express it without calling me names and condemning me to the lake of fire (even if you must truly believe that that is where I am heading because that is exactly what your bible teaches).

Best Regards,

Ed

Reply:

 Ed

 It has been so refreshing to communicate with a person who has such clarity of thought and expression. Far from calling you names, or condemning you to anything (after all, who am I to pass judgment on any man?), I would be more than happy to shake your hand if we were ever to meet, and I hope that the feeling might be mutual. I will follow up these emails, as you suggest, with some further reading and research. If I ever come up with any 'original' thought I'd like to think that I will be welcome to email you again.

But for now I guess it has to be AuRevoir and may your God be with you

Martin


 Well done John B., on your article on the 3rd commandment. I came to the same conclusion a long time ago, but you wrote it like I could not.

Louise


 Hello John,

I just read your article on the 3rd Commandment, and I wasn't sure what I would find. As usual, you are right on again! What a wonderful way of taking us back to how our concepts came to be. I am sure we "true believers" and others can identify with the whole scenario. The best part is your reality of the INTENT of the command. I never thought of it that way before. It makes sense. It just proves, at least to me, that NO MAN/WOMAN can SPEAK FOR GOD! If God is so all powerful, he can produce a voice for ALL to hear at the same time, or as Ed has often said, write a message in the sky for all to see, and avoid the confusion of any doubt what he/she/it wants of us!

I say once more that I believe God cannot be explained, it is only a CONCEPT to ponder, seeking to understand. We each create own reality, and it is personal. It is obvious that mankind has needed to understand the unknown or unexplained, the mysterious, the magical etc. and needed a power to give credit and explanation. If we choose to believe in a personal god, to guide and direct our lives, it is our choice. NO one has the right to project their need to believe on others.

The forces of the Universe are awesome, wondrous, and require answers that we don't have. What a great way to learn! We have many mysteries to solve, and find joy and excitement in the process. If more time was spent caring for the needs and problems of human beings, it would be better spent than organizing traditions and rituals of men to control and "USE" people for their own selfish means. Hope to hear more from you, at least we who are reading this are comforted knowing we share in the experiences.

As always, my best to you. Joanne


 Hey, Joanne.

Wow! As usual, you leave me feeling both humble and gratified. It is not my intent to tell anyone what they should think. To the contrary, everyone needs to be thinking for themselves (a new concept for most of us exWCG slaves). But it is most encouraging when I hear from those like yourself who actually do "get it" (brethren, you ARE getting it AFTER ALL!!!). (Just kidding.)

Of course, I wrote the article from an "inside the bottle" perspective--i.e., as if the Bible were actually true. Personally, I think the Ten Commandments are man-made (based on Hammurabi's Law and other ancient philosophies), but for people who actually still believe in the sanctity of the book--well, what else could the 3rd Commandment possibly stand for?

Thanks, Joanne, for the encouragement. And keep your own articles coming. We must be doing something right, because the hate mail is really starting to fly!

John B.


 I've been preaching regularly in the COG for many, many years now, and was horrified to hear of the HWA incest allegations and the Ramona divorce documents. I thought his ordination certificates had real validity and genuine authority from God. Mr MacNair held up the copy from the autobiography displaying the word "apostle" to the whole congregation recently. That was in the old Global and I'm not sure you fellows know the breadth, the length or depth of the ignorance about this out there....especially among so many of our senior citizens!

God help us all.

Try www.csj.org so helpful!
John

 Reply:

 John,

Yes, we know the ignorance that is out there. We lived and breathed it. Trouble is, nobody is going to believe the truth unless they are ready for it. Don't ask me what opens a person's mind so they can understand. And then, for some people, it will close back up again like it never happened. I guess it is denial. Maybe the older we get, the less likely we are able to accept that we have been wrong for so long.

I've heard many older people say that they are too old to change. I guess that means they just don't want to think. They figure they are too close to dying and don't want to lose there supposed salvation.

Regards,

Ed


 Say, Ed-

Maybe DropHammer doesn't really need Viagara. He's writing from Excite.Com

(Okay, so I'm reaching.)

Do you suppose he is one of the old Hammer boys (Tony, Buck, and the gang?) Almost certainly a minister (probably of propaganda) from one of the cults. Perhaps he thinks of his handle as a threat--("Ah'm a gonna drop the hammer on you, bo-weh!")

Such childish assholes. They're so much fun to watch!

John B.

 Reply:

Never thought it might be an actual "Hammer."

Thought it was a strange handle.

Wonder how they feel about their Big (Hammer Donated) Sandy campus being up for sale and the proceeds going to Tkach and gang?

I despise these cowards who won't sign their names but want to take shots at me.

Ed  


1/31/00

 Thanks so much, Ed, for posting what I wrote. And thanks for using only my first name. I do not wish at this time to have either my last name or my email address attached to anything I write. I appreciate the lengths you've gone to in assuring your contributors ample privacy...you are a god...particularly to those of us who had to learn in our 40s that we actually had a right to privacy.

Just wondered if you know what the Worldwide Church of God teaches now (officially) about church government...know they say they don't teach one true church and by extension it would seem a little twisted to insist on apostolic succession. But in spite of that, I get the feeling they're still using the church government from the top down doctrine very subtly (even in the new covenant atmosphere) because the ministry needs to be needed. I have some thoughts on this issue in conjunction with why the hierarchy still rides the ass (hwa's dead carcass) and at least on the surface pledges some allegiance to his legacy of shame. I just need to know what the latest is on the government from the top down.

Also at some point I came across a letter in your site from someone saying (I recall it as somewhat of an official response), yes, they knew there had been serious errors made in the Armstrong theology, and abuses in the ministry...repentance has occurred, apologies have been made...but that they just needed to move on. I swear there was an odd construct to the explanation that kind of focused on the need to move on as being more to the benefit of the ministry, than for the victims of the abuse. In other words, it was like the ministry needed to move on.

Just in passing, exactly WHAT, in detail, has the ministry apologized for? I'm not real clear on that except for vague references to wrongs done.

The Worldwide ministry wants to move on as quickly as possible, circumventing entirely the broaching of WHAT WAS DONE at their hands. Focus on forgiveness really came at a convenient time for the Worldwide ministry....just when THEY needed to be cut some slack, let off the hook. How timely. And I can see the whole game plan now...that if anybody in that Worldwide wants to take the ministry to task for not specifically addressing particular abuses of the past, the ministry will just hold up their new testaments and declare such individuals really don't have God's spirit since they can't forgive others.

Anyway, search as I might I cannot find this letter anymore. If you can recall where it might be, let me know. I thought maybe I saw it in your hate mail but the link doesn't work anymore.

Janey

 Reply:

Janey,

Thanks for telling me that the Hatemail pages were kind of messed up. I think I have all the links fixed now. I didn't realize what my HTML program was doing to me when I copied a table from one page to another. Should be fixed now so will let you find what you are referring to. I will also post your message so that we can get input from anyone that may have info on the present teachings of the Worldwide Church of God. The teachings are irrelevant to me, so haven't kept up with them. I presume they tell the members that they are no longer controlling them and then subtly try to control them.

As far as what they have apologized for, I don't recall anything specific. Just a kind of "We were wrong doctrinally. Sorry about that." type of apology. I think they are very afraid of being sued for all the damage that was done to people's lives. If anyone knows about a specific apology, maybe they will write to me.

Best, Ed


Dear Name Withheld,

Be thankful you happened in on the Painful Truth Website. You are now being able to read the real facts about the WWCg and HWA etc. This truth does hurt, just as the Painful Truth Site indicates. The truth is painful, once we have been betrayed, raped, robbed, and humiliated by a cult. The things on the pages of this website, plus thousands of things yet unsaid or uncovered, are all true.

I have personally researched the WWCg for about 13 years. The bottom of the cesspool of evil had not been discovered yet. There is so much that is painful truth that is not even on this site, that it is truly amazing.

Your feelings are normal. Your tears are healing. Your facing the ugly painful truth will be liberating. Also know how unalone you really are. There are multiple thousands of us, damaged, victims of one degree or another all over the world.......yes, I said world. I have talked to victims from all over the world.

Be kind to yourself. Study, learn, read, and do good things for yourself. Don't beat yourself up over being stupid etc. THEY SET OUT TO SNARE VICTIMS. THEY are evil, and you are ok. Remember these words. You are ok.

Take care. Louise


 Hi Dana:

I finally got to read your excellent article on the "Why Us" and the antics during the receivership. Thanks for the additional info. When we look back over the whole thing now, we can only wonder how Worldwide Church of God ever managed to avoid prosecution. I always thought Clinton was slick, but he had nothing on Rader.

Many readers from outside (including the current Worldwide Church of God+ cybervoyers as it was called), must now be putting all our PT site comments, articles, and email together to complete a massive and horrific jig-saw puzzle. Really, Dana, if people cannot get the whole, ugly Worldwide Church of God+ picture by now, then they surely never will . . . and the tares still won't give a damn.

Mucho blessings and thanx again.

Best. John


2/1/00

  I feel that your site has some very usefull information however, being an ex-member of the Worldwide Church of God don't you think that some of the titles and art work are somewhat disrespectful in any way to the deceased? Did God say that we are to speak no evil of any man? Even though you might have some valid information, when one talks negative in any way about another individual your no better of that person. In fact your actually stooping lower. This is just food for thought if you are really trying to set an example as a Christian. Which leads me to the old saying W.W.J.D.? Do you think Jesus is coming back to earth to bash and post negative articles about man's mistakes, (no) That is the Lords job at the great judgment. I guess it shows what people choose to do with their spare time by wasting it instead of growing spiritualy and being prepaired for the return of Christ. Your negative feedback is welcome.

Christian

 Reply:

 Well now Christian, why do you think that I am going to be negative? Do you think that I will respond to you with the same attitude that you write to me?

If my titles for the pages and the images are disrespectful to the deceased, then I have accomplished what I have intended. At least partly, because I am also disrespectful to the current administration as well.

You wrote:

"Did God say....."

Answer:

No. I challenge you to prove to me that God has said ANYTHING. But spare me any Bible quotations, because first you will have to prove that the Bible was written or inspired by God, and I know you can' t do that. And don't try quoting to me from the Bible to "prove" that the Bible is inspired. That doesn't work, I'm afraid.

You wrote:

"when one talks negative in any way about another individual your no better of that person."

Reply:

You have to be kidding me. If that is the case, you are no better than I am. I won't even dignify that with any more response.

You wrote:

"if you are really trying to set an example as a Christian"

Reply:

No, not trying to set an example as a Christian. Just showing that Christians, such as the present day ministers and members of the Worldwide Church of God, are christians in name only. I have more ethics and integrity than these ministers and members, and I am not a Christian.

 You wrote:

Which leads me to the old saying W.W.J.D.?

Reply:

That is funny. Just how OLD is that saying? Couple of years? I have a page on that subject that exposes the present ministers and members for what they really aren't: Christians. "What Would Jesus Do?"

You wrote:

"Do you think Jesus is coming back ......"

Reply:

No. Don't believe he was ever here,( There is no credible evidence that he ever existed, other than the Bible, and the Bible is not credible.) so he obviously can't "come back."

You wrote:

"I guess it shows what people choose to do with their spare time by wasting it instead of growing spiritualy and being prepaired for the return of Christ"

Reply:

I would suggest that you stop wasting YOUR time trying to admonish me and quit looking at my pages and, instead, go pray and fast more.

Ed

 Reply:

 Ed,

I have mistaken you for an exmember of the Worldwide Church of God. I did not mean to come across arogant. Sometimes text reads different than what a person is really trying to say, therefore this is why I'm not an author of any books. I was not aware that you are an athiest. So I guess you thought the shooting in colorado was pretty cool. I'm trying to always learn new things, why does an athiest have a website only targeted towared current and ex-WCG members? I'm just curious. Is it like your mission or something? Don't get me wrong, I left the Worldwide Church of God in 1991 and started going to PCG and left in 1993 because they did'nt agree with me getting married outside of the church (which is a crock). Most of the doctrine that the Worldwide Church of God and PCG have stood for have been dismissed from my beliefs. So I hope you understand that I was'nt trying to judge you, just trying to figure out the motive behind your site, If it is to point out that Worldwide Church of God members have been wrong or Christians in general? Since you don't believe in Jesus or God, do you believe that there is a Devil or a Hell? And what about the discovery of Noah's Ark in the mountians of Ararat in Turkey. It has also been turned into a National Park to protect it. This alone would prove that at least one chapter of the Bible deems to be true. Your thoughts please.

Christian

 Reply:

 Who said I was an atheist? You know, most sites have a FAQ page that you can look at. The link to mine is the very FIRST one on my main page. Give it a try.

And, just for your information, most atheists, I am sure, did not take ANY pleasure in the shootings at Columbine. I find that Atheists on the internet are much more intelligent and generally nicer people than Christians as a whole. I don't know any Atheists personally. There is, naturally, a distinct distaste for people who will BELIEVE something just because other people believe it, with no proof whatsoever, and then try to witness to the world about their great faith. That really turns off intelligent people.

I hope you are better at communicating in person or you must be a pretty big person.

No, I don't believe in the Devil or Hell. Mankind can be evil enough, all on its own, without any devil having to be responsible for anything. And Hell is just the figment of religious delusion.

Noah's Ark National Park? I don't think so. I followed this Noah's ark thing pretty thoroughly when I was still a Christian and there is absolutely NO proof of any Ark. Period. I do know that in Wisconsin Dells, Wisconsin, there is a water park named "Noah's Ark." I've been there and I can attest to its being a pretty good place to spend a day, especially a Saturday.

I have never said that some things is the Bible are not true. It is not a matter of finding something that is true in the Bible and then swallowing the whole thing. The crux of the matter is that, if there are errors in it, and there are many, many, then it cannot be inspired by God. At least not by any God I would want to worship. If you have to pick and chose what is inspired by God in that book and what isn't inspired, it makes figuring out your religion a lot harder or a lot easier. Even those Christians who assume that it is ALL inspired can't agree on what it says. Is God the author of confusion? Apparently, if you are a Christian.

Ed


 Hi ed,

Thank you for your condolences on how the wcg and hwa stole the best years of my life and hurt me and my family so badly.

I've still been reading the stuff on the web about it all and I told you that it makes me cry and scream inside finding out all this stuff....but I just wanted to let you know too, ed, that I've been reading some of the humorous stuff too and it is FABULOUSLY HYSTERICAL STUFF to say the least....I've laughed so hard at some of the stuff I could hardly breathe. These people are so so so clever, it's amazing. Its some of the funniest stuff I've ever encountered. There's so many of them its impossible to name them all...but three cheers to them all for the laughter that replaced the tears......

Name Withheld


 I left the WWCOG back in the early 80's (when I was a very young mother.)  I had always been very independent by nature and when the Makeup stuff began in 81 - I wouldn't tolerate it.  For about a month - I wore full makeup to services, through all the women and elders trying to convince me otherwise!  I then just quit going to church. (That was in S. Cal - either Reseda or Canoga Park . . .  Shortly after that we moved to Oregon (Medford). 

I was never so "looked down upon" by a congregation - as I was by the Medford congregation!  One time I called the minister and asked him why my "Christian husband" could view porn movies, go out with all the single church women (since I was an "evil" wife who wouldn't submit to his authority), and a number of other questions.

The minister showed up at our place for counseling!  Wow, they should have just tossed me in a cell and thrown away the key (sexist to the hilt!). 

My husband needed porn because I was not conducive to his authority.  He could go out with single church women (because they gave him Christian-woman advice) - which I couldn't give him since I was "of this world." 

Well, I won't repeat what I said to the both of them - I summed it up in two potty mouth words; period.  Needless to say - the GREAT Christian husband was a child molester (convicted in Oregon).  He was also sleeping with many of those single church "Christian females!" 

The church was a thorn in my side until my divorce in 1989!  Of course during the interim period (before the divorce), I fought long and hard against all of the suffocating structures that the church placed upon my ability to breathe. 

I was also noted as a "third tithe thief!"  Since my children and I were made to suffer financially through all of the myriad tithes - I took it upon myself to doctor all the tithes that we could get our hands on. 

I refused to let that church control me.  I was the ultimate witch and people just feared being around me - because I was possessed or something to that effect!

I guess what I would like to bring up most in this email, is the fact that Herbert W. Armstrong along with his discourse is a sorry blight upon the face of humanity.  He induced the concept of slavery to fulfill his selfish desires - to achieve wealth and fame at the expense of many broken hearts and countless damaged homes.

Sincerely,

Bev

 Reply:

 Bev,

Oh the hypocrisy of it all! To think that we followed "men" such as these and virtually worshipped them. The foolishness continues today, all in the name of God.

Regards,

Ed


 Hi Ed,

I have had something bothering me about where I read that hwa's tombstone was removed, or that he didn't have one. It was mentioned recently in an article or email. I know that he did have one and that it was not flat. We have pictures of Richard standing next to it, and we laughed at the time because it had a shield of sorts with an arm and hand reaching out on top. We made the comment that he was reaching back out from his grave. I will look for the photo since it has been nagging me. I noticed on the Graveyard site that the stone looks flat. Can you remember anything about it?

Also, do you remember that some group really believed he was going to be resurrected, and gathered there to wait? Now that IS nuts. But then who knows how many of us would have gone to Petra? GOD save us from his followers!!!!

Have a good week, and I want you to know your work is as good as ever. Lots of interesting stuff. One thing I noticed is that the article on Abuse in Duluth has been visited an extraordinary number of times, yet NO ONE writes us with any information, or is ready to tell their story!

Take care,
Joanne

  Reply:

 There is a flat marker and a large headstone: http://home.golden.net/~mtech/memorial/hwa/monument/actual.htm Yes, there was a group that expected HA to be resurrected and gathered at the grave. I think they may do it every year.

I think a lot of ministers may be looking at the Duluth page and wondering if they will be next.

Ed

  Reply:

 Hi,

Thanks for the info on the hwa gravestone.

I really like the article on Answered Prayer, yet when I went to retrieve it the next day, it would not come up. I remembered it was on my history and got it back that way. Is there a better way to link it? It is going to be an eye opener to those who still believe in prayer.

 As for me right now, prayer is just wishful thinking. I find if something needs to be done or solved, we better use the brain we have, 'cause nobody else will do it for us!. That is called being responsible for our own life, and not dependent on fantasy or illusion. We live in a symbiotic world, where we all need to work together.

The FREE THOUGHT page sure is interesting. What blows my mind is how long ago so many things were understood. I guess that just shows how long any change takes to progress. People would rather play it safe and stay with the familiar (family). That is all they know and follow.

Sure is great to be free, but it gets kinda lonesome! I'm so glad for all those on this PT site.

Joanne


 Hi, Ed.

Just writing you quick note to express appreciation for posting so many articles and responses lately on receivership and on the Worldwide Church of God during the 70's. Many of us who were either too young to have understood what was going on at the time or who had joined the Worldwide Church of God after 1979 apparently missed A LOT.

Although the ministry made announcements at Sabbath services with regard to the "receivership" (in particular, where to send tithes), the members were basically just told to pray for the work as Satan attacked the church. It was portrayed as a battle between the church headquarters and Satan, manifested through the state of California. Brethren (at least in Bethlehem) were fearful of discussing what was happening and stayed on the sidelines.

More than 20 years later, a lot of the information you're posting on the site is news to me.

Keep up the good work, Ed.

Best regards,

Sharon


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