The Painful Truth About The Worldwide Church of God

Email To The Editor
(Page 57)
(Mail from Kooks, Nuts and Loonies is on another page)

11/11/01

Subject: A question about ministering to a United Church of God Member.

 I rcently found out I work with a united Church of God member. I am a mainstream christian AKA raised Catholic and now attend a Baptist church. I have read some about Armstongizm, but I have to say there is alot to take in. I have a good understanding of the bible, but ministering to a "fear" driven church member that seems to be content with her beliefs seems difficult at best. What can I do to speak on her level? Do you have any suggestions?

Sincerely,

Drew

REPLY:

 YOU WROTE:

What can I do to speak on her level?

REPLY:

Just think of your own fear of death, your mindless belief in the same book she believes in and the comfort your religion gives you without any proof at all. Then you will be able to understand her.

Editor

I was in the Los Angeles area recently during a 2-week vacation in California, so one day I drove by the old WCG headquarters church area and AC campus just to see how little of it was left. I was expecting to be depressed when I saw it all torn down and replaced with expensive condominiums. Much to my surprise, as of 18 JUL 2001 the Auditorium (Frauditorium), Hall of Administration (where most of the chief mindrapers worked), Student Center, science hall, fine arts hall (in which I was married), and dormitories are all still standing just as they were 27 years ago when I last worked there in 1974.

Then I drove by the building on Pasadena Avenue where I had worked for over four years in the Data Processing Center and which had also housed the huge printing presses. That building is still standing, too, but I have no idea what goes on inside or who may own the building today, since it was sold many years ago.

Progress (i.e., the physical destruction of what we all used to believe in) is moving very slowly at 300 West Green Street in Pasadena.

Bill Fairchild Douglas, Mass

 Dear Editor,

 It's been almost a year since I found the other survivors of WWCG through your wonderful web site. I've been reading through the mail to you, and I want to thank you for keeping up the web site. I'm relatively new to the internet, so I really don't have any idea what all is entailed in this.

 I'm in the forum reading sometimes, and sometimes I have comments to make. Since I grew up in the "church" and left in my early twenties, I was alone until your bravery in putting together this site made connections to others possible. Fifteen years ago I left on my own, first in my family to exit, and at first the guilt, the questions, and the aloneness can be overwhelming. This site is helping so many individuals who are exiting, and it has helped me so much this past year of 2001, that I cannot express to you how thankful I am.

 Please keep up the good work, Ed! A lot of people wouldn't be so honest about what they've experienced as you have been. Please continue to be tough-skinned about any negative mail, your candor and attention to this web site is really appreciated!

Sincerely,

Tammy

I left the PCG about 5 months ago.  I was under the control of Flurry for many years, and since I left, it left me feeling at times completely crazy, relieved, frantic, peaceful, angry, bitter, happy, and sometimes all of the above at once. 

I cannot imagine what possessed me, years ago, to completely throw away every shred of reason and intellect, in order to try to fit myself into a caricature of humanity, all for the sake of being "the very elect".  I don't know why I swallowed it all, week after week of propaganda from god's newest self-proclaimed prophet. 

The amount of abuse my family suffered at the hands of the ministry is unimaginable to anyone on the outside.  When my eyes were finally opened, I quit believing in the words of Gerald Flurry or Herbert Armstrong.  I quit believing I would find ultimate truth in the bible, or any place else for that matter.  I quit believing in god.  I quit following ritualistic nonsense revolving around sunsets, cloven hooves, appearance of evil, cosmetics, and unauthorized use of computers.  I don't have to be concerned about scrutinizing a potential friend's family history back to The Sons of Noah, now I can open up to all members of the Human Race. I can celebrate whatever makes me happy.  I do not fear the tribulation, the lake of fire, or any of the other threats I heard repeatedly. 

I gave my kid a birthday gift for the first time in his memory.  I am glad I am out.

If there is a god, I'm sure he'll roast Gerald Flurry first, because Flurry is doing more to kill faith than any atheist ever did.

I was a WCG member from '68 to '74. I left when a local elder named Larry Bathurst stunned me with Eric Hoffer's "True Believer". An excellent study of cults and mass movements if anyone hasn't yet heard of it.

 I never really suffered in the WCG. I just couldn't figure out all those years why I never seemed to fit in. Something seemed wrong, but I could never put my finger on it until Larry showed me the power of logic and reason.

 I like your Jefferson quote. Outstanding.

 My main point was to respond to the lady who wrote about Bob Roenspies. I've never been a member of his group, but I exchanged several posts with one of his dedicated followers.

 Roenspies, of course, believes in predestination as taught in Rom 8:29-30 and Rom 9.

 Simple logic can be used to attack Roenspies from two different viewpoints. First, if God is all knowing as Roenspies teaches, then our salvation is not dependent on our free will choice, since God already knows all our choices. He's wasting our time and His. Or He's a sadistic God who likes toying with us like some boys like to pull wings off of flies.

 Second, we can attack Roenspies by assuming that God is indeed all knowing, assuming He exists, of course. If Rom 8:29-30 is true, then that scripture alone cancels any authority Roenspies may claim for himself, since there is no way we can earn salvation by any amount of sabbath or holy day keeping. We are merely doing exactly what God already knew we would do.

 Third, if God foreknows and pre-selects His children, this fact in itself would cancel all religions and take away any "authority" from any man who claims to represent God. This is so because if God chooses, then man cannot. It is completely up to God's standards who is the "elect" and He already knows who they are. Therefore, our works earn nothing, nor can they earn anything.

 The positive side of this doctrine is that it sets us free from all men, all religions, and all organizations acting in the name of God.

 In reality, we can't rebel against God anyway, since we don't know anything about Him/Her/It. The only thing we can truly rebel against are the ideas of men who try to teach us about God.

 If predestination is true, then in any case we are free from men.

Found your address on a search.
There may be interest in renting the Ambassador Auditorium and other facilities for several months.
Is this possible? If so, would you kindly let me know whom to contact and how.
Thanks.
==Jack

REPLY:

The Auditorium is going to be painstakingly disassembled within a few months and moved to an area outside of Jerusalem.

I would look elsewhere for your facilities.

REPLY:

Thank you for your kind response.

==Jack

 Hi!

 I am 32 and grew up in the wwcg. I left when I was eighteen, but the influence it had on my life is, as you can relate to, very interesting. I found your site and spent hours there. So many things I never knew about. It never "felt" right, but I did it because it was all I knew.

When you try to explain to others your "religious" upbringing it is so tiring! I wish I could just say catholic!

Anyway, I could go on for quite a while. I would like to thank you, your site is incredible.

Felicia

 Garner Ted Armstrong may have had his little faults, but he was a fascinating speaker and better than a rock band for keeping you awake while driving across West Texas in those lonely hours between 2 and breakfast.

Stan

REPLY:

Yeah. I swallowed his BS too, hook, line and sinker.

He is still trolling for suckers and catching them, now and then.

Little faults? You mean boinking hundreds of the coeds on the AC campus? I guess if you didn't end up marrying one of the young ladies who forever has to live with the knowledge that this man used her fear of god to have sex with her. I guess if you weren't the father, mother, brother, sister, son or daughter of these young women, and you didn't care about them.

Do you mean chasing a masseuse around a room while you are naked and masturbating as you go? Is that a little fault for a "man of god?"

Well, I will assume that you are just being facetious because I can't imagine anyone thinking that what Garner Ted Armstrong is responsible for in his miserable, worthless life are "little faults."

Editor

REPLY:

 I'm sorry that you believed him and that you were disappointed later. I never for a moment regarded him as anything but a voice to listen to while driving. I'm afraid that my faith in the integrity of religious leaders was deep-sixed by the time I was a junior in high school. But not for anything as flagrant as mass seduction, just an awareness of the usual church politics regarding parking lots, the souls of America's youth (i.e., how can we get kids from the Baptist's Sunday school while keeping them from getting any of ours), etc.

It never occurred to me that Garner Ted was anything but a BS artist. He was just easier to listen to than most of the other stuff that was on the radio.

I wish you luck in your battle for rationality.

Stan

 Dear editor,

I noticed that Matthew L. McCarty does not think much of your web designing skills. I think the Painful Truth layout is just fine. Perhaps it is not as professional as the porn sites Matthew usually visits?

John B

11/18/01

As An EX EX EX wcg'er I can only say thanks to all who have been involved in this web site as I have been reading it almost from the very beginning. I told my wife that I only have one goal when it comes to religion I want to be an anti-christ. Yes she was taken aback as to my comment (she was in the cult long before I met her ) Then after thinking about it and seeing that she still has mind conditioning from the cult, she realized that I really mean anti-religion-christian not anti person Christ whoever that is.

Point is that your friend (Letter To My Baptist Friend) can never comprehend what we have been through and sometimes neither can I. And as I have pointed out we still have the demon of false teaching ever lurking just behind in the cortex of some brain matter, just waiting to try to bait us back to other false beliefs. Only logic and reason can -will prevail and that is just what people like your friend will refuse to use. Didn't we?

Well in my case this web site has been a lifesaver in the very real meaning of the word. May Mickey Mouse and my pile of rocks (the one true pile of rocks) bless all those who are part of this site. PS: Hope I didn't sound to corny but I have found true happiness apart of or should I say in spite of those who preach the faith.

Roy

This is in reply to "Stinger's" article about "Calculating the Jewish Calendar"

The Jewish calendar was fixed by Hillil 11 or at least he started the ball rolling. Herbert Armstrong stated that if it weren't for the Jews, we wouldn't know what day's to keep. evidently he never checked it out.

The calendar issue is easily explained, pick up the book "The Comprehensive Hebrew Calendar" by Arthur Spier, the Jews fixed the calendar so that no holy-day would fall the day before or the day after the sabbath. because it (they said) would be a hard-ship on the people! Spier states that in more than 60% of all years Rosh Hashanah does not occur on the day of the molad but is postponed according to one of the dehiot, therefore the dehiot are actually NOT the exceptions to the rule, BUT the rule!

So the postponements are a FACT, and the calendar is not accurate and we did not keep the holy days on the right days more than 40% of the time! That's a Bummer man............add that to the fact that Christ fulfilled the law or old covenant, finished it, there was no need to keep those days anyway, except to rake in the "cash", which they (wwcg) did! And the sad part of it is, we "bought" it.......but as a friend of mine said to me, we got what we "paid" for. After all, "money talks, and bullshit walks"!!!!

Bob

Shalom!

 I do believe that God is real ,hi das egsist.But after my 5 y search I do not believe in Christianity.Many years ago I remember that Chugch of god was theclose to my understending of new testament. I decidet to give up because Christ was not in the curch and because of my way of serching for the truth.... I dont like when blind leeds blind..The liders of the church are not being able to ansver my cqestions.

I celebrate sabbath ,I BELIEVE THAT GOD OF ABRAHAM WAS ONLY TRU GOD SABBATH IS MY IGNOLIGMENT OF HIM,HIS MARK I do not believe in CHRISTIANITY AS HUMAN INSTITUTION.

I believe that tru church vill be formed by the seecers of the tru. Christianity is fool misconceptions...As phylos.and analist. I believe that we have to judge between fruits..,between good and bed because evil is contageus...if you reade bible carefully ...It is neccessery to judge to be able set up boundries and to be firm in every day temptation TO COMPROMISE VITH EVIL.

Because I don go in any church it makes my feel lonelly I wos glad to discover your page on internet.Lets go on in our hearts folov the truth and not to think about ded old church.If you know somebady in melbourn with your belief,please help my make contact,

 Regard, Nadia

11/30/01

 You wanted to know what draws me to your site. First of all, I remember you very well in the Milwaukee area, and a few others who have contributed to your site. Secondly, although I do definitely disagree with your point of view, I have appreciated the background you've exposed on the WCG, most especially the Ambassador Report, which I think is extremely credible. It is mind boggling to me that we ever accepted any of the WCG and Herbert Armstrong in the first place. We all should have seen the warning lights and heard the alarm bells when we were told we had to qualify to come to Church. But I was only a teenager at the time, so I'll use that for an excuse.

As I've written, I went to your site mostly for info about the WCG. I did not agree with your's and other contributors' ideas about Christianity, but I just dismissed it as the rantings of bitter, angry people who were deeply wounded and can't let go of the past. I actually still feel that way. However, your article on the WTC tragedy, "God Bless America?" incensed me so much that I could not ignore it. As I've told you, I personally witnessed the towers burn and fall to the ground, and although I did not personally lose anyone in the tragedy, I know many who did. I experienced their pain first hand. The entire city of New York was awash in mourning and grief. When I read your article, all I could see was someone taking advantage of the moment to push his own agenda with total disregard for the pain people were experiencing. Jerry Fawell was wrong, and you were wrong. (At least Jerry Fawell had the decency to apologize for what he said). I can't think of anything more cruel than to hit people when they are already hurting so badly they cannot bear it. The only thing that was giving people any kind of comfort here in New York and the rest of the country was their belief and faith in God. Why would you want to pick such a time to attack them for that belief?

I was not and am not trying to convince you to change your beliefs. You seem determined to believe what you're going to believe, and no one is going to change that. You say it makes you happy. I still don't know how that can be true, but that's not my problem. All I am trying to do is hold up a mirror up to you, point out the weaknesses in your beliefs and let you see how it looks to those of us who don't view things as you do.

In my last e-mail I was trying to anticipate and answer your arguments in advance. I tried very hard to quote you exactly, and I tried not to attribute any motives or thoughts to you except what I specifically found on your web site. Now you tell me that I can't always count on that. Your beliefs and views of truth are always changing, so one can never really know where you're at. Since you so readily admit that, what is the point of your site? If you don't know what is true, and anything you believe and say can change at any moment, why should anyone listen to you?

I could ignore you pre 9/11, but it is a different world now. Now I think you really need to answer for the things posted on your site. You need to explain why you want so badly to destroy Christianity above all other beliefs and life styles in the world. Why do you want to destroy a book that is revered and loved by so many millions of people, a book that gives so much comfort and hope? You say you are convinced Christianity and the Bible are a fraud, and are trying to convince others of the same. However, how do we know that you won't suddenly discover something that will make you change your mind, and then what will you do with all the damage you have caused?

To sum it up: I must be a prophet. I predicted exactly what your response and reaction to my e-mail would be. I thought you would just pooh-pooh it, refuse to answer any specific arguments, and never let it see the light of day. And that's exactly what you've done!! Am I good or what?

You can go ahead and hide what I have to say from others, but you can't hide from what you know.

To quote you: Shhhhheeeeeeesshhhhhhh.....................

Mary G.

P.S. Since you don't believe in a loving, intimately involved God, I'm sure Thanksgiving doesn't mean anything to you, but Happy Thanksgiving anyway.

 REPLY:

 YOU WROTE: First of all, I remember you very well in the Milwaukee area, and a few others who have contributed to your site.

REPLY: Well then that explains your fatal attraction. Is this the Mary that lived with Ruth L. for a while? I'm sorry if I did not recognize your name, but I didn't really know you that well.

YOU WROTE: I just dismissed it as the rantings of bitter, angry people who were deeply wounded and can't let go of the past. I actually still feel that way.

REPLY: You know, I have never attacked you or called you names. Why do religionists feel the need to defend their god? Why isn't their god powerful enough to defend itself? Christians have killed so many people in the name of their god. He must be really happy that his people will attack and kill those who do not believe the same as his chosen people.

You have mentioned in some past email that I am nasty to people. I am not nasty to those that do not attack me first. Calling me bitter for exposing evil people and beliefs is a good way to get me nasty. Are historians bitter? Are policemen bitter? If people are deeply wounded, who did the wounding? Are the inflictors of wounds responsible to the wounded? Shouldn't the true Christian be binding up these wounded people and making them whole again? That is a rhetorical question. I know you can't answer it without convicting yourself, your church and your god.

YOU WROTE: "God Bless America?" incensed me so much that I could not ignore it.

REPLY: The intent was not to incense but to help people to think about what they believe. You were incensed because you don't want to deal with the facts and because you feel personally about it because you were there. You also must be dealing with a lot of personal questions regarding this god that is supposed to be blessing this country when it is, in fact, not doing anything, or you are in complete denial. Just ask the 6000+people that were killed in the attack. Ask their families. Did you see the people jumping from the towers rather than burn? Why didn't your god help them? Is it easier for your god to "comfort" their grieving relatives than it is to delay the collapse of a building until human help can arrive?

YOU WROTE: When I read your article, all I could see was someone taking advantage of the moment to push his own agenda with total disregard for the pain people were experiencing.

REPLY: The moment? I wrote the article a few days after the tragedy, posted it for about 2 minutes, reconsidered because I didn't think it was appropriate at the time and took it down. Then when I read numerous other articles with a similar attitude and I saw Annie Laurie Gaylor of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, just get ripped by Bill O'Reilly on his show, I figured it was time to get into the fray with my own opinion. Which, by the way, does not reach a hell of a lot of people, and most of those it does reach probably don't agree with me anyhow. At least I am able to throw the ideas out there and possibly get people to think a little and look at things from a different point of view. This faith thingy is a really difficult thing to fight against but, if I can help people put a little crack in it here and there, some day it may fall apart for them and they will wake up to the truth and find a little reality in their lives for however long they have left.

Anyhow, I did not post it until September 30th, 19 days after the tragedy that your god could have prevented but chose not to. I think I showed 100% more sympathy and compassion than your god did.

YOU WROTE: (At least Jerry Fawell had the decency to apologize for what he said).

REPLY: Falwell said what he thought and got caught at it. Then he tried to tap dance around it by saying that we were the ones that misunderstood him. That is NOT an apology. I have nothing to apologize for. Nobody has to apologize for Truth. If Falwell believed what he said was the truth, he should stand behind it.

YOU WROTE: The only thing that was giving people any kind of comfort here in New York and the rest of the country was their belief and faith in God. Why would you want to pick such a time to attack them for that belief?

REPLY: Why would you want to take Heroin away from a drug addict? Because it is more hurtful for the addict to take the drug than to be off the drug. And, I did not "attack" anyone.

It would be better for people to be uncomfortable and realize that there is no god that is helping them. How in the hell can you people that saw this happen pray to this weak, impotent, useless god? I think that I have forgotten how I used to justify tragedies like this. Is it that they deserved it because they don't believe like "I" do? Is it that they didn't have God's protection because they obviously are not in "god's true church?" Did the announcement go out, as in the "old days" that none of "God's people" were harmed by the tragedy?

YOU WROTE: All I am trying to do is hold up a mirror up to you, point out the weaknesses in your beliefs and let you see how it looks to those of us who don't view things as you do

REPLY: And so, it is okay for you to do that but not okay for me to do it.

YOU WROTE: In my last e-mail I was trying to anticipate and answer your arguments in advance. I tried very hard to quote you exactly, and I tried not to attribute any motives or thoughts to you except what I specifically found on your web site. Now you tell me that I can't always count on that.

REPLY: As I said, the website covers a number of years during which my perception of what "truth" is has evolved. I don't have the time to go back and revise the articles that I wrote years ago. They still make a point and may be relevant to certain people. As I said, if you want to see what I believe today, check the FAQ. I try to keep that up to date.

Did anyone go back and revise the Bible when the new testament was added? When the "god" of the Bible tried to change his image from a monster to an angel of light?

YOU WROTE: Your beliefs and views of truth are always changing, so one can never really know where you're at.

REPLY: If you want to know what I believe today on a certain subject, write to me and I will tell you today. But who the hell cares? I don't care. I'm open to new ideas, based on facts and evidence. I'm not tied to something that I believed yesterday just because I am afraid to examine that belief to see if it is valid.

YOU WROTE: Since you so readily admit that, what is the point of your site?

REPLY: A collection of Facts, Opinions and Comments from survivors of Armstrongism and The Worldwide Church of God.

YOU WROTE: If you don't know what is true, and anything you believe and say can change at any moment, why should anyone listen to you?

REPLY: I never said that I don't know what is TRUE. I try to keep up with the FACTS and what can be PROVEN. If new facts are presented, then I have to revise my impression of truth. You, apparently, do not have that problem.

Nobody has to listen to me. I'm just an observer here. Just looking at what happens in this world and wondering out loud, so to speak. Most of the articles on the PT site are written by other people. I have a very small voice here.

YOU WROTE: You need to explain why you want so badly to destroy Christianity above all other beliefs and life styles in the world.

REPLY: I don't want to destroy Christianity "above all other....." I want them ALL destroyed. I want people to be able to look at ALL religion objectively. I have no hope at all that that is going to happen for most people that read what I have to say. Leaving religion is a learning process that will probably take years. Learn a little here, a little there. Ask questions. Get answers or get no answers. Put two and two together and get four instead of 7 or 14 or 19 etc. Keep reading the website and over the process of time your mind will be poisoned with truth and eventually you may be able to think for yourself. It doesn't happen overnight.

YOU WROTE: Why do you want to destroy a book that is revered and loved by so many millions of people, a book that gives so much comfort and hope?

REPLY: I want them to know that their faith is in a book that is no different than any other book in this world. Let's just be very clear about this: Christians have faith in a BOOK not in a GOD. The book is fallible and I want them to know that and to try to justify their faith in a fallible book. They revere it and love it because they refuse to examine it just like any other book. It gives comfort and hope but in no way that is helpful in this life. It only helps by giving some kind of hope for an afterlife.

YOU WROTE: However, how do we know that you won't suddenly discover something that will make you change your mind, and then what will you do with all the damage you have caused?

REPLY: I am open to any proof that you have that I am wrong. If people are damaged by truth, I am not to blame. If your god cared about my doing any damage to his people, he should protect them from me. (He protected the people in the WTC buildings, right?)

If they are damaged by me, we can all just pray that god will comfort them.

Or, I could just do like the Worldwide Church of God and blame it all on Jesus. Jesus covers all sins so, if I ruin as many lives as the WCG (virtually impossible), all I have to do is accept Jesus and tell these damaged people to move on and find Jesus like I have.

This belief in Jesus is a real lifesaver. And, if they do not forgive me, then they are in danger of eternal judgment for their bitterness.

YOU WROTE: To sum it up: I must be a prophet. I predicted exactly what your response and reaction to my e-mail would be. I thought you would just pooh-pooh it, refuse to answer any specific arguments, and never let it see the light of day. And that's exactly what you've done!! Am I good or what?

REPLY: A prophetess. I'm impressed. You obviously have a job where you don't have to do a lot of work since you have so much time to write extensive messages to me. You could take your talent for prophesy and become a multi-millionaire by starting your own church or religion.

YOU WROTE: Since you don't believe in a loving, intimately involved God, I'm sure Thanksgiving doesn't mean anything to you, but Happy Thanksgiving anyway.

REPLY: No, I am not thankful to this god of yours for giving me anything. I am thankful that it appears as though there was a god that started this whole process going and then walked away to spend the rest of human history sitting in a tavern drinking beer. I am thankful that I was lucky enough to be born in the USA rather than Afghanistan. I appreciate living in a country that is the best in the whole world. I am thankful for my fellow human beings who are the only ones who do answer prayers. I am thankful for my wife and my sons and their wives or girlfriends. I am thankful that I have a job where I can support myself and my wife.

I am not thankful to your god at all. I have no prayers to this god, no thanks to it. I am thankful though. It is an interesting question. How can you be thankful if you have nobody to thank? Well, I guess it is just a state of mind.

I would be glad to give any god the credit and thanks for all that I have if that god would just show itself to me. Is it the responsibility of the "lost child" to find its parent or the parent to find the lost child? I see no evidence for a god that cares about mankind. At all.

Would you like to go to my Acts of God page and prove a loving and intimately involved God? I'll be waiting. Probably a long, long time.

Hope you have a nice Thanksgiving also.

Best Regards, Editor

Last Saturday I went to the UCLA Oregon football game at the Rose Bowl (Oooo... worldly college sports! Cheerleaders in SHORT SKIRTS wiggling their hips to ROCK MUSIC! And on the SABBATH no less!). Thought I would try to get there via the "southern route", which took me right along the south end of the Ambassador College campus. I expected to see it fenced off or something, but it wasn't. After the game, the freeway traffic was bad so I bailed out and ended up at the north end of the campus. Same story. The buildings and grounds looked like they are being maintained. So as of November 10, 2001 what Bill said about the campus seems to still be true.

 Fantastic game by the way. UCLA missed a long field goal attempt with 2 seconds left so lost 21-20. Much more fun than an HWA harangue, which would have lasted about the same amount of time.

 -Todd

REPLY:

As long as they have to keep maintaining those buildings, they are bleeding.

Editor

REPLY:

Yup. 

Congrats on the web site, by the way -- pretty well maintained considering the volume of material there.

 Dear Editor:

Unlike some of the contributors to the vital The Painful Truth, I do not reject the Bible or any other scripture. However, I no longer approach the writings as instructions from some god but as part of the literature that has greatly influenced our thinking.

Imperfect, but often very astute, men "penned" these thoughts in an effort to reach and to express, while encouraging others of their time to stretch toward, the highest ideals of their societies. Their roles are somewhat like that of today's commentators speaking on the problems our society faces.

I guess the reason we want some all powerful god or aliens from outer space is that we do not -or are afraid to --recognize the powers that we have. Some claim we needed the help of aliens to build the pyramids. No, we figured out how to do it ourselves. God did not invent the law. We invented the law and, thus, started our search for justice. We have failed many times, but we are progressing. We have even invented the concept of god.

The life we enjoy today came through our mind. To free ourselves of cults, we must take a good look at what we have been able to do. This is our birthright and legacy. We must not sell it our because we hunger to be a member of some group.

At the same time, we also need to examine our weaknesses. We must be aware of both what we can do and how we can just as efficiently destroy it. Then, at least in my case, we must learn to think critically, not emotionally.

Please do not think my not mentioning God is a rejection of Him. Far from it. I do believe in God. But I also am learning to believe in man.

Thanks again for your vital work to prevent others from falling in the abyss that cults like the WWCG, its daughters, and other like organizations open for the unwary.

Jerry

 I was involved in the World Wide Church of God until my parents left when I was 7. I have since become a computer programmer (I'm frightened to think what would have happened if I my parents would have stayed).

I found the post on the cult-o-matic money sucker truly inspired. WOW!

In a way its too bad that the church has reformed and are slowly going out of business. Soon no one will remember them and there will be no more posts to this site. :-(

Regards....

 Earl

Great website. I'm a FORMER member. Currently dealing with the emotional trauma from being "raised" in WCG. I'm both angry and bitter. I have a certain amount of dirt on multiple "leaders" in the church. Are you aware of any class action suits that are in the works. At the very least I want all of my tithes and offerings returned.

Gregory

Hi there,

Love the site, it's a breath of fresh air. I spent my childhood in the CGI and always believed something wasn't quite right. I'm an independent free thinker now, unshackled by any organization but I'd still love to see just what the Great Man gets up to when he thinks no-ones looking. Please send the file , as I've been unable to obtain it from the newsgroup.

keep up the good work!

Guy

12/10/01

 I simply congratulate you on your candor!!!

I myself come from an awful background ex-Jehovah's Witness. I was definitely able to relate with your disgust in man-made religions, and final redemption.

I applaud you!

Noaris

REPLY:

Noaris,

Thanks, and I applaud YOU for finding your freedom from religion. Enjoy your life and make the most of it. This life may be all we ever get.

Editor

Hi! :)

 Have you recently been to a normal WCG local congregation service? You may be pleasantly surprised at just how much things have changed :) Anyway, changing the subject completely, for those interested in philosophical theology, apologetics and some secular philosophy: http://www.

*.com/~ */toc.htm

Roland

REPLY:

Have you read the FAQ? :)

See Q&A #2. :)

Editor :)

REPLY:

Editor: Ok, I read it. We will agree to shake hands as internet associates and go our respective paths.

 I'm much more interested in progressing into a teaching career and building a good website delivering seminary-type reading materials.

Roland

REPLY:

If you would like to defend your "transformed" church, please do it in respect to question #36 and my response to it on the FAQ page. Nobody else has had the guts to do it, even your transformed ministers. I and the other 40,000+ former members do not release you or them of responsibility to FIX what you broke. You, as a so-called Christian, cannot, in good conscience, if you have a conscience (I know the "ministers" do not), move on until you take care of your evil past.

REPLY:

 I feel you're making several assertions which can never be answered in any way except that it would result in more condemnation...I choose not to accept your invitation.

 As a simple member with absolutely no governing authority then, and having none now, I'm supposed to be guilty of what others have done (according to your website)?

 Your argumentation is a no-win situation...so, again,

I choose not to accept your invitation.

Roland

REPLY:

 YOU WROTE:

As a simple member with absolutely no governing authority then, and having none now, I'm supposed to be guilty of what others have done (according to your website)?

REPLY:

You are guilty because you chose to associate yourself with evil. You have a choice of staying and supporting a church that is responsible for an incredible amount of evil, or leaving. If you chose to stay, you take on all responsibility that has accrued to the "church." As your bible says: "Come out of her my people that you be not partakers of her sins or her punishments."

I have proved the evilness of this "church." Either dispute the facts and prove them wrong or be condemned with the "church" and its "ministry." You cannot be an uninvolved participant here. You know too much, now. You are responsible for what you know. You can no longer claim ignorance as an excuse.

YOU WROTE:

Your argumentation is a no-win situation...so, again, I choose not to accept your invitation.

REPLY:

It is "no-win" because you know that you condemn yourself. It is "no-win" for you because you know you cannot win. If you cannot argue for what you believe, why do you believe it? You came to my website and wrote me an email supposing that I must believe what I do because I do not know what the present Worldwide Church of God is like. I reply to you that I know what it is like and show you its hypocrisy and you have no reply.

You are no different than the cowardly, money-grubbing ministry of your church because they cannot answer for their "Christian hypocrisy" either. Their excuse is that they need the money of the gullible members. They don't have enough talent to make a living any other way other than as parasites.

But you do not need them. You can leave and not be responsible for what they have done. If you stay with them, you enable them and make it possible for them to ensnare other innocents. Thus, you are just as responsible as they are. If you believe in and worship the god of the bible, you should be very afraid.

Think about it.

Editor

REPLY:

We're at the crossroad where we part company :) Since my name tag no longer carries "WCG" and I'm in the process of developing a website, my time and energy goes into seminary and teaching.

 I need to return to letting WCG defend WCG, without my help. I'm sorry I didn't make clear earlier that I do not wear the WCG label. I'm now within the "pail of Christian orthodoxy" as described by Christian Research Institute and others.

 Hopefully "able college" will avoid the evils of this world and simply provide spiritual information.

Roland

PS: You might find this of interest: http://www.******.com/~****/r**.htm

REPLY:

YOU WROTE:
Since my name tag no longer carries "WCG" and I'm in the process of developing a website, my time and energy goes into seminary and teaching.

REPLY:
Yeah, that would have helped.

YOU WROTE:
I need to return to letting WCG defend WCG, without my help.

REPLY:
One has to wonder why you were promoting them to me in the first place. I see you do not want to defend the indefensible.

YOU WROTE:
"pail of Christian orthodoxy"

REPLY:
I think you mean "pale" unless you are in a bucket. Buckets being the millions of buckets of human blood that Christian orthodoxy has shed in the name of its god.

YOU WROTE:
Hopefully "able college" will avoid the evils of this world and simply provide spiritual information.

REPLY:
Hopefully you will provide some proof for whatever you put on your website.

Maybe you could start out by proving that the Bible is the word of god, something that nobody else has been able to do; ever. You can't prove it; all you can do is believe it. As I say on my website, you Christians do not worship a god, you worship a book. And the book is flawed.

Now, if you leave me alone, I will leave you alone

Dear Editor,

 I remember telling you that I was an internet moron, well that was an understatement. I never even knew that I'd sent you that snip of a letter. I apologize again. But as I re-read it I was going to say that I'd seen the Mcaughey septuplets on a TV show and heard the parents say that "God had blessed them." Yet two of the babies have serious and permanent physical disabilities. I can only wonder what those two babies did in the womb to piss "God" off so much. That was all I wanted to say.

Pete

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