The Painful Truth About The Worldwide Church of God

Email To The Editor
(Page 42)
(Mail from Kooks, Nuts and Loonies is on another page)

11/26/00

My ex-wife was a member of the Worldwide Church of God. I found out after the divorce the "minister" either gave her permission or ordered her to divorce the "tool of Satan" she was married to. Me. I do not remember the ministers name as I only met him once and my X never spoke of him.

Do you have any information concerning the name and whereabouts of the man who was the minister of the Amarillo, TX church around or about November 1978? If not could you point me in the right direction so I can find out?

I would rather not have my name and address published at this time.

Thank you.

If anyone has this information, send it to me and I will forward it to this man.

Hi Editor,

I recently tried to get into Philadelphia churches home page called Key of David. As I told you earlier it was not working --This time it worked for a while. It was not working as I stated, however they changed it. It no longer shows the Mystery of the Ages Book on the front page as in the older one, and they also changed Armstrong Autobiography.

They just seem more calm about what they are saying! But they STILL have their list of books & claim they are not in it for the money!!! WHAT A JOKE!

( I had to make this clear because I sent you statement that there page wasn't working )

----They were going through the process of changing it -And this was right after they lost the rights to Mystery of Ages!

I am just glad to be out of WWCG ----And any of them!!!!

I commend you for exposing the things that need to be exposed. We have learned a lot from your site and we thank you so much. You are much more kind than some of these people in WWCG.

With care -Please keep anonymous

 Hi!

I was a member of the Worldwide Church of God for about 20 years about a year ago I finally gave up, after trying to find one of the "split" groups with which I could be compatible.

I finally gave up after being associated with John Ritenbaugh's group for about 18 months.

Your site is absolutely amazing: I HAD NO IDEA THAT THE PROBLEMS IN THE CHURCH WENT ALL THE WAY BACK TO Herbert W. Armstrong!!! Being is South Africa, I did not know Herbert W. Armstrong, and I thought that problems were just problems, that God would work it out, etc etc.

I experienced many horrors in the Worldwide Church of God; maybe the main thing is that I felt I was becoming more insane by the day, especially after about 1990. One day I took a girl to lunch (we were both working)short version: the minister, Roy McCarthy threatened to put me out of the church; reason: I was baptized, she was not! Relationship was wrecked. A few years later I tried to get the relationship going again; shortly after she was killed in a car accident. TYPICAL. The more you try, the more you lose????

Many, many things I could mention. But I had no idea that problems stretched back so far. I am only now, after 20 years trying to make a recovery.

I feel almost like an adolescent. All my imaginary foundation taken away, and have nothing to stand on now (world was bad, etc). Have had many occasions of smashing things, putting my fist through cupboard doors etc.

The stories I have read on the Internet are shocking... I am still struggling to come to grips with Herbert W. Armstrong himself being what he was... it is almost impossible to rid my mind of the concept of one true church, even though I have left about one year ago!

Maybe I should try to order "the Tangled Web"????

Regards

Armstrong-Survivor

REPLY:

Yes, the dirty truth about this church does boggle the mind. Here we were trying our best to be good little potential world leaders while the little king and his corrupt court were doing absolutely the opposite, all with our money!

The Tangled Web is eye-opening and any purchase goes to the widow of the courageous man that wrote it.

Also read the Ambassador Report. I've read every word. It is riveting. Stay away from those cupboards or anything else that you value when you read them though. Herb is very lucky to be dead because he would be a marked man if he was alive.

If you have any horror stories from South Africa, send them along.

Yes, we have to start all over again, just like kids, but it gives us a chance to finally get it right. Don't make the mistake of jumping from the frying pan into the fire.

Best, Editor

2 the Editor/s:

Regarding Terri's letter and the reason for the rent-a-buildings, rather than purchase meeting halls for the churches.  The reason was simple.  Money.

True, it would have been cheaper in the long run to have purchased halls and meeting places, but the expense at that time would have cost countless millions.  Could Worldwide Church of God have afforded it?  Yes.  But that's not where their monetary priorities were focused.

They were primarily focused on amassing wealth for themselves.  This premise has proved valid over the last few years.  The only few examples of some church purchased buildings were for the Feast of Tabernacles.  Other purchased meeting halls were not considered to be necessary.

The emphasis was on Christ's return, and all the money was needed NOW to finish this "great commission."  No one really knew where this money was actually going, but the fact that we all met in temporary buildings continued to promote the charade that the cultmasters believed the second coming was imminent.  So why buy buildings to meet?

GTA was a proponent of buying buildings and often argued with Herbert W. Armstrong about the problem.  But HWA had the final say, and no buildings were purchased.  Herbert had other lavish ideas for all that money.  His own super-opulent lifestyle.

It's noteworthy to see that although Herbie wouldn't allow any money to be spent on church buildings for the outer churches, he spared no expense to raise up his Hall of Administration and the Auditorium - all which, of course, served to promote his own ego.  No one else really mattered.

 Hope this has helped.  JohnO.

There you go again Editor.  I did not say the Bible was or was not the Word of God. I am only saying that in the rules of logic, if you say a thing can be proved a negative, than , by definition, it also has the potential to be proved as well. If you say it cannot be used to prove a truth, then-- it cannot be used as disproof either.  Don't you get it?  What you are doing is making an assumption first.  Your assumption is, "If there is an error in language or translation, or something else in this book that I don't like,  therefore, this book isn't the Word of God." Fine, if that's what you want to believe, go ahead. But that is not "proof", Mr. Editor. It is only your belief based upon your criterion which may or may not be correct in the final analysis.

I am making only one conclusion sir, that the rules of logic that you play by are only your rules made to fit the conclusion at which you want to arrive. This is not an acceptable format for "proof", but, rather, a way for you to vent your anger against something you don't like I suspect. Don't tell the world that this is absolute proof Mr. Editor.  It isn't.  And, in your usual style, you turn and begin to lambaste me, just like I said you would.  I have said nothing either way, yet, simply because I disagree with the rules of your logic in your argument, suddenly I am a target of your humiliation tactics.  See, you are just like old Herbie Mr. Editor.

REPLY:

YOU WROTE:
Don't you get it?

REPLY:
Yes, I get it. My point is that you cannot say that the Bible is God's word and then use the Bible to prove that statement. THAT is illogical. But, there is no other proof, other than IN the Bible. It is, as stated before, the Bible standing on top of the Bible, supporting the Bible, upholding the Bible.

If the telephone book has a paragraph in it that says that it is God's word, should we believe it? If any other book says that, should we believe it? There has to be some external evidence that it is what it purports to be, otherwise there is no evidence.

 All the errors and contradictions, not just in translation but in details and science and history, etc. tend to point to no perfect being having had anything to do with this book. All the evil that this god is responsible for in this book points to the fact that, even if this being did "inspire" the bible, he is not any being worth worshipping.

So, here is my offer: Be the first person in the world to ever prove that the Bible is God's word, but you cannot quote to me that "the Bible says that it is." Does that make it clear enough for you?

Now, put up or shut up.

Mr. Editor

 REPLY:

 Dear Mr. Editor:

Please accept my apology for not being more clear in the intent of my message. I did not, nor am I saying that the Bible is the Word of God. Nor am I saying that it isn't the Word of God. I am merely trying to point out a technical procedural flaw that I see in your argument. We could be talking about proving that OJ killed Nicole, or any kind of argument-in this case, it happens to be about the value of the Hebrew text we call the Bible. I am not saying that you are wrong in your conclusions-I am only trying to make a technical point purely for the sake of the symmetry of logical arguments in general. If I may explain further.

First, you have certainly established that the book has many translation errors and ,etc. This fact has been well known for quite some time. Then, in the process of your case, you make an assumption. As far as I can gather, that assumption is basically this; If a perfect God were to write a book for man by the hand of man, the book would have to remain perfect through all time, in spite of man's imperfection, in order to be proved to be the Word of God. Is this correct, or have I missed a point?

Now, let's assume that we could find such a booka book that has been around for many thousands of years, with verifiable copies from centuries past. Would this book, being perfect I all translations, science, history, etc., would this prove that it is the Word of God if it were to claim it was so? I don't think so Mr. Editor. There could be other possible explanations for this, albeit miraculous, phenomenon. It could be the work of some extraordinary chain of events not seen in other societies. A perfect book does not necessarily prove that it was inspired by a Divine presence. The converse is also true. Just because it is full of translation errors does not necessarily prove that it is not the Word of God either.

Let's take an example. Suppose you were God, and you wanted to have your perfect book written without any errors and kept that way for thousands of years in and have translated by men into continually new and evolving languages. How would you accomplish this task? The only rule would be that you could not take away the free will of man. Even if it meant that a man who sat down to copy the book had free will to make a mistake, or record something as an allegory, etc.that could be misunderstood in another culture. If this individual copier made a mistake, what would you do? Perhaps you could respond by zapping him dead on the spot with a lightening bolt, leaving it to one of his buddies to take up the task. However, if you took this route, I think it wouldn't be very long before no one would be willing to attempt the task-everybody would die trying because, as a rule, no man is perfect. At any rate, my point is that you must first prove that your apriori assumption is true. You must first prove that if a mistake is made in a book that claims to be of ultimate Divine authorship through inspiration, that this mistake proves that it is not of Divine authorship. You have made an assumption on this point, but not proven that this is a standard that will result in the final proof of whether or not it is Divinely inspired. My point is that this is not a provable assumption, and therefore remains an assumption, and therefore your conclusion is based solely on an assumption, and therefore is not proved.

Is it any wonder why your arguments have not been latched onto by the professors in the best universities of this world as a new revelation of proof? Try this. Send your argument to professors of oratory or philosophy to Harvard, Yale, Stanton, Columbia, Cambridge---and see what they say. Who knows, you might learn to make improvements to your case, or you might open their eyes to things they never thought of before.

James Sales

 REPLY:

Mr. Sales,

I will answer you this last time and then we must agree to disagree.

If a book were to be perfect in every way, all the way down through history, this still would not prove that any god inspired it. I could write a perfect book with it just having two words in it: "I am." That could presume that a "god" wrote it and is telling us that he exists. Whole religions would be built around this "holy" book. Perfection therefore is not a proof of godly inspiration, but imperfection is a proof of no godly inspiration. Now, I am not saying that you or anyone else has to believe that, but I do.

I don't think it is asking too much for bible believers to NOT try to prove to me that the bible is the word of god by quoting the bible passage that says it is holy and breathed by god or whatever the verses are. Thankfully, these verses fade into foggy memory. I get this argument just too many times from completely brainwashed people and I will not accept it or even listen to it. Therefore the caveat not to use quotations from the book to prove the book. There would have to be external proof to prove it to ME. If that is not logical to you, it is to me.

I do not have to prove that something is NOT divinely inspired, my friend. The burden of proof is on the believer. Is it my job to spend my life trying to disprove every book that purports to be written by some god? Is that the job of every person? If that is the case then God must look at us as a bunch of rats in a maze that he hopes will find their way out. Or maybe he hopes we don't find our way out if he would inspire his divine word containing errors or, as in your presumption, allow humans to make mistakes in it. Does my eternal life hinge on my acceptance of a book that I would have to figure out what are errors and what are godly? If god left errors or deliberately put them in there, as some feebleminded people believe, then he is a poor god, indeed. Put on top of that the obvious evilness of this purported god and you have a god not worth worshipping even if he did inspire this book.

I am not talking about "translation" errors. There are scientific and factual errors for anyone to see who wants to look. I will not waste my time enumerating them. You are welcome to visit my Bibliolatry Page. And, the reason I have called it Bibliolatry is because the people worship the book. They are not worshipping a god as much as they worship the book. And most of them don't even know what the book says or even what their religion believes. And there are thousands of versions of the Christian religion, all based upon different interpretations of bible verses. Sorry, but I have no further need of such confusion.

I will do as you suggest and suppose that I am god.
(All bible quotations or mentions to convict bible believers, not for a minute to signify that I find any validation in the book.)

I would make it very clear to my creation just exactly what I expected of them.

I would not leave any book from me open to interpretation or human reasoning or mistranslations.

I would be so much smarter than my creation that I would figure out a way to do it so that nobody would have any excuse for not knowing what I really wanted from them.

I would not eternally punish people simply because they had been born in the wrong country or age and never had access to these vital instructions.

I would not send "my nation" to war against other nations, killing men, women and children.

I would not make women to be inferior and virtual slaves to men.

I would not sanction the killing of rape victims if they fail to cry out loud enough. Dt.22:23-34

I would not say that you must cut off a woman's hand if she touches the "secrets" of a man who is fighting with her husband. "And thine eye shall not pity her." Dt.25:11-12

I would not punish children for the sins of their fathers, just because I am a petulant and jealous god. : Exodus 20:5

I would not sanction slavery.

I would not start a religion based upon a man that cannot even be proved to have ever existed.

I would not send bears after 42 children who called my representative a "bald head" but then let those who claim to represent me mislead people to their hurt and destruction. If people claimed to represent me and speak for me, when they did not, I would cause their lips to fuse together so that they could no longer speak. People could have free will otherwise, but they would not be allowed to misrepresent me and mislead people in my name.

I would not blame and punish faulty human beings for being faulty since I created them that way.

I would not expect people to believe a book was written by me without any proof. That would be illogical and not worthy of a just god, especially when it was I who gave people brains. I certainly can't fault people for using them.

I would not allow my subjects to think that they could influence ME to change the laws of the universe simply if they would pray to me. I would let them know that it is very presumptuous to think that I would also change the future for every human being by simply answering one little prayer. If I change one thing, then everything changes after that. People would exist and not exist, lives would change, nations rise and fall, if I were to answer even one prayer. I refer here to The Butterfly Effect.

I could go on but, lastly, I would let it be known that I don't give one good shit about who wins a football, baseball, basketball, hockey, soccer or any other type of game so quit doing your stupid prayers to me and making religious signs in the sporting arena. I don't care if you catch a pass or make a touchdown or win a race. I also do not care who wins elections especially if I let that evil Al Gore win the presidency.

Now, if you still feel that my logic is illogical, that is your opinion and you are welcome to it. Go start your own website and maybe someone will read it and be just thrilled by how brilliant you are. I am not.

I will not be able to accept any further correspondence from you since I will be going to talk to the professors in the best universities of this world and tell them how smart you are and what a dummy I am.

Mr. Editor

 I read your article and it was absolutely so true! Was in this cult --and I find No more religion for me!!! I had enough. Because I have studied about religions and none of them are on the MONEY LOL Just thought I would throw that one in!! They are not on the money but IN for the Money!

I read a lot on the Painful Truth and find there articles really great!

 You can post this but keep me anonymous for now! Thanks  

Visited your website: interesting!

You are cordially invited to visit the CONSERVANCY OF THE PHOENIX, INC. a Pantheist based nature conservancy.

http://w3.trib.com/~phxcon/

You may find the "Point of Origin" document posted there of interest

My father and mother and one brother say that the Sabbath can be changed to fit there purpose. There in the split of group Philadelphia church of god so I say bull

 REPLY:

You need to study the Bibliolatry Page.

 Don't trust anyone to tell you what god wants or says. Find out the facts

and decide yourself.

 Editor

I am one of those who got coned by Herbert W. -Actually it was Garner T. who got me hocked -back in the 70-s. I came -I saw -I left. But my Spiritual virginity (if there is such a thing)was gonzo. Now -you would think -that this was no big deal. But it was. It took 15 years to get over it. The problem -as I see it -was "Not knowing the truth". I had Herbert W. and Garner T. figured out as con-artists. -But was I right? After all there was many sincere and good people in Armstrong's church.

Bill Gates and Internet gave me the tools I needed. Today the false prophets stand exposed. -And I stand wondering -how anyone could believe such stupidity. The megalomaniacs are -all driven by a common cause. -They have to leave a record -in buildings and documents. This makes it easy -today to go back and check out their lies. Before anyone starts to feel sorry for the liars -they don't have to go hungry -there is enough morons out there -who loves to be coned -no mater how much the liars are exposed.

The age of Dictators have ended. Today -no one can hide their evil deeds for long.

But far be it from the devil -to give up dictatorship. Today the silent mass dictates -by not saying anything. -It's called Democracy. I am afraid that Herbert W. and his Commissars was boy scouts -compared to what is coming.

Have a great day

J.

 James Sales says... "..you can't use the Bible to prove that it's the Word of God, that would be illogical..", but then you turn right around and claim you have proved the Bible isn't the Word of God by using the Bible! Who's being illogical here? You can't have it both ways gentlemen...

 Shallow thinking produces shallow thoughts (and opinions). The logic is flawless, realistic and true. However, it takes more than 3 brain cells to understand it. (Note to editor; please put extra spaces in my words to keep this slow and simple.)

No document can be used to prove itself. Any factual document can be verified and proven by sources outside of the documents own claims -such as a resume. If you read a resume from someone who claims to be a Ph.D., would you use the resume itself as proof? Or would you call the damn college? Would a hand printed college degree require verification? Or would the crayon lettering prove itself?

While it's true that a document cannot prove itself, a document is quite capable of "disproving" itself -such as a resume. A resume claiming a degree from the university of Mars would disprove itself. A resume claiming 147 years of experience as an astronaut would disprove itself. A resume claiming military service in the Civil war would disprove itself. A resume claiming...

The Bible is a document. A document that claims God wrote the Bible and that God is not the author of confusion. The Bible is a document that disproves itself.

 Jim V

NoMoreCults@aol.com

Very simple: you have you head in a very dark place  it must be very smelly in there

 rtw556@email.msn.com

 REPLY:

Good news and bad news.

Good news is that I now know where my head is.

Bad news is that it is in your brain. You are right, it is smelly in here but it is also empty.

Editor

hi in many of your articles you criticize the bible; not as it is, but by adding to it outside knowledge ("scientific" logic)

you pose many questions, and challenge your readers to answer them. you dont want verses, yet EVERY question finds its answer in the bible (depending how you read it, you may chose to ignore the answers, out of disbelief of the supernatural)

PROOF = how can the book "the protocols of the learned elders of zion" fit into the book of revelation???

how can you explain man's emptiness, YOUR emptiness, which god created to fill with the holy spirit???(which satan fills with drugs,sex,music, false religion, wealth, popularity,& so forth). NO profession can give us the sense of purpose we crave.

can science give you INNER-PEACE? (not drugs)

logic has led me towards the bible, not away from it.

Perhaps you did not find spiritual satisfaction within the protestant & catholic faiths, but neither did I. I was born a catholic(roman), became protestant as a teen(anglican); but i never felt god's presence in their churches, as i would feel from the bible. Then i discovered Christian truth as it was from the beggining. I am Now Orthodox (coptic). the orthodox church has remained unchanged since the beggining. (constentine broke away from orthodoxy, and became the first pope of the catholic church.)

THE TITLE OF YOUR WEBSITE SHOULD HAVE BEEN "THE COMFORTING/SIMPLE TRUTH" If you have any questions, or are interested in the very painfull truth, please reply

sam

alkhoury@ihug.com.au

 REPLY:

Wooooooooooooo Wooooooooooooooooooo

Editor

 I attended Worldwide Church of God from 1976-1978. At the time Ken Geise and Curtis May were the pastor and local minister, and again in 1989 when Robert Jones was the pastor.

Neither time was I aware of any of the goings on that I'm reading about on the site.

However, the more I read the more of my questions are being answered. Thank you for the site.

Chester

In your recent article about Flurry I would like to add that he is a greater or at least on par as old pervert Herbie.

In the Trumpet, August 99, he blows his own horn telling his followers that the way to end your financial worries (page 24) is to pay your tithes to Gods representative. Funny how the way to success is only by sending your money to him. But he goes even further.(page 28 ) He says once you have paid what belongs to God ( only money given to him counts) you have no further say in what is done with this money( you have done your part.) He can do whatever he sees fit to do with it and if it is mishandled then you must rely on God to hold them strictly accountable more so then you would be capable of doing.

So he is saying you must give no matter how you think the money is be misspent . Its Gods problem.

Then he writes ( Do not be deceived by a satanic imposter who poses as a minister of Jesus Christ, speaking in pious and spiritual-sounding language )

Just like Bill Clinton,  and now Al Gore     Flurry has learned that when you are guilty of something horrible accuse everybody else of what you are really guilty of yourself. Just do it very loudly and very often.

Roy F., Cambridge Ohio as an ex Worldwide Church of God'er now ex-Christian I ain't afraid of the myth of god and bible so let the cult masters beware if they come after me and mine I am armed and dangerous to them.

My family and I were also involved in this awful cult that you speak of. After years and years of being blind, we finally realized how bad and wrong it was. We also went without food as young kids just to pay them to get a new car every year and live in a huge home. I can remember for days only having a piece of bread along with mayonnaise and mustard spread on it. All for what..........?

 My sister and I missed out on so much as kids, the childhood we should have had instead of the childhood we were made to have. I am 18 now and my sister 22, I attend no church but still believe in God, not a man. As for my parents also, I do not have hate for them, but for their stupidity...JUST OPEN YOURS EYES AND REALIZE, ITS ALL ABOUT GOD NOT A MAN.........not one man who thinks he is God....

That felt good to release that after all these years.........

 Thanks for listening,

 Joshua

  REPLY:

Joshua,

Thanks for your message. Good to hear that you are out of the cult. Be very careful that you don't fall for another one. This time it won't be your parent's fault. Don't believe anyone that cannot produce proof of what God wants from you. You know already as much about God that is for sure as they do.

Best wishes to you.

Editor

 I can see this site is aimed to totally muddy Mr. Armstrong and the Church. I know the church had lots of faults but it had good too. Name one church out there that doesn't. No church is completely purfect.

If you truely believe God is in control then obviously the people went through things by those ministers because they didn't. I've had ministers give me stupid advise but I put God in charge and it was all corrected. I grew so much in this church and gained Godly confidence I never got anywhere else.

I believe God controls my life but if I choose to interfear as Rachel and Jacob did then I get what I deserve.

Maybe these people weren't really believing. Maybe you have a problem too.

Some things are true and we've changed but in reality the change come from within. When our church claimed we didn't preach Christ I couldn't understand why they said that because I learned it from this church. I guess

God let me hear what He wanted me to. The others might have had a wrong attitude so their ears were closed. I am not the only one that was scratching my head with these accusations. Lots of people in my area are.

Other then that I can agree fully with you about AOL they also ruined my modem.

Sandy

  REPLY:

YOU WROTE:

I can see this site is aimed to totally muddy Mr. Armstrong and the Church.

REPLY:

The purpose of this site is to tell the truth about Herb and the Worldwide Church of God. If they look dirty after you know the truth, that is not my fault.

YOU WROTE:

No church is completely purfect.

REPLY:

That makes its' evil okay? Other churches ruin people's lives so it is okay for the Worldwide Church of God to do it? And get away with it?

YOU WROTE:

If you truely believe God is in control ....

REPLY:

If I thought God was in control of all the evil that goes on in His name, I could not respect, let alone worship, such a god.

YOU WROTE:

I've had ministers give me stupid advise but I put God in charge and it was all corrected.

REPLY:

So, if this god of yours is in charge, why doesn't he just inspire his minister to give you the right advice so he doesn't have to go around correcting the stupidity of his chosen servants? Seems like it would be a lot easier on Him and save everybody else a lot of grief.

YOU WROTE:

I believe God controls my life but if I choose to interfear as Rachel and Jacob did then I get what I deserve.

REPLY:

Well, the next time you want to walk across a busy intersection, just close your eyes and let god control your life as you walk into traffic. Don't interfere by looking in both directions and waiting until there is no traffic. God will control you and all those cars so you will not be killed. Just have faith. (Just kidding, please don't do it just to prove how wrong I am. Your life has been screwed up enough by religion. Just trying to make a point that when it comes right down to it, you really don't believe God controls your life.)

YOU WROTE:

Other then that I can agree fully with you about AOL they also ruined my modem.

REPLY:

That is a start. You admit that I am right about one thing. Now, send me your proof that anything else on this website is untrue and I will remove it, otherwise be careful that you do not believe in lies and a false god. Prove all things.

Editor

11/28/00

Dear Sir,

I have been glancing through your website The Painful Truth and I found it very interesting.  I was getting close to baptism into the Philadelphia Church of God - a split off from the WWCG and I have backed off because I could not let the church rule me and take me away from my beloved family.  I could not live to their rules. 

Now I am totally confused, I want to please God and not men.  Maybe I should stay away from all religion after all they are created by men who are evil.  Have you any advise?

Confused

  REPLY:

Confused,

Read, study and don't believe anybody that says they know what God wants you to do, without proof. If they can't provide proof, (and I know they can't), then you are the judge of what God wants from you, if He wants anything. He has done a pretty good job of hiding him/her/it/self.

Don't make the big mistake of following men when you really want to follow God.

Read the book, Age of Reason, it is on the website and it is an easy read. That will get you started on your way to true freedom.

You made the right decision regarding PCG.

Good luck.
Editor

2 the Editor/s:

Re:  One of the latest correspondents on Page 42.  I believe it's the 12th letter down, and uses no capitals.

I'd like to remind this person that "science" is NOT a dirty word.  Religion has always branded it as such, because religion actually fears science, as the latter has always eventually made fools of the former.

The word "science" means (according to Webster's) nothing more than a compilation of provable knowledge on certain subjects.  True science (and that's really the only science) is provable time and time again.  Religion is not a provable discipline.  Science will teach us the physical (or chemical) facts from which we can derive the obvious conclusions.  It is NOT intended to provide some spiritual need.  But it can and does give us a sense of  observation and inquiry which leads to growth, helps us reject the stupidity of myth and fairy tales, puts us on a stable base of wisdom and common sense, and eventually can lead us to a sense of true understanding and spirituality.  Science forces us to "prove all things," because when that happens, the myths simply go out the door.  Science frees us and opens our minds.  It drives us to explore all avenues of reason. 

Scientific facts are always correct, because they've been PROVEN.  Scientific facts are no more theories.  Scientific "theories" are still just that, because they remain "theories."  But when they can be consistently proved, it's then that they become science.  And, whenever necessary, if more is learned from provable sources, science can (and does) modify its conclusions - but always according to the facts and absolute proof.  Science must do that, because science relies on truth and not fables.  In order to exist at all, science must "prove all things."

But, religion can never do that.  Religion fears science. Proof and evidence are NOT the nature of religion.  Religion will espouse the most ridiculous theories, and blast those wacky ideas at people, demanding that this drivel be believed, even at the cost of salvation.  "Church" and religion don't rely on proof.  They figure they don't need to.  Instead, they rely on ignorance, fear, and superstition. 

If science relied on those unstable things, then science would NO longer be "science."  Things like the Bible, religion and church, are nothing more than spiritual marijuana to our minds.  Religion dulls the senses while science jogs our brain cells and jerks us out of our apathetic lethargy.  Religion is unprovable.  Science is evidence.  That's the difference.

Scientific thinking would be the BEST thing for the religionist. It would make him/her question everything.  When this happens, then religion goes "kaput." 

Something to think about? 

JohnO.

 Armstrong-Survivor said.

... "I feel almost like an adolescent. All my imaginary foundation taken away, and have nothing to stand on now (world was bad, etc.). Have had many occasions of smashing things, putting my fist through cupboard doors, etc."...

Yes, we lost our adolescence. Some of us are just now learning things that most people learn in their teens or early twenties. I think that it is very, very important for you to understand that leaving the cult mindset is by no stretch the end -it is only the bare beginning. It is only now that you can begin a life based on facts and reality.

I have been scratching, clawing and digging my way out of the belly of the whore for over 12 years now, but I can only relate what worked for me and what changed my life around 180 degrees.

Nature abhors a vacuum, including psychological vacuums. You cannot simply rip the cult mindset from your mind and go your way. These false concepts, beliefs and perceptions must be replaced. The fables must be replaced with facts, the fantasies must be replaced with reality, and the emptiness must be replaced with substance. I can only speak for myself, and this is what turned my entire life and mind around 180 degrees.

In early '88 I had been in the church for 29 years and I was 6 months from turning 40. I knew deep inside that I was completely and totally out of "screw-off" time. I also knew that I had time for one last shot, but there was no margin for error. And my one last shot had to be right.

When the alarm clock of reality went off in my mind about the church, I had to know what I could do with the rest of my life. I firmly decided that I would not waste any of my remaining years simply because I had been so wrong in the past. I was sick of wasting my life, it was time to move on.

I made several trips to the local library and took (free of charge) many tests; personality tests, profile tests, aptitude tests and personal preference tests. I took pencil and paper to the library and answered the questions from the books. I also read articles in this area in Readers Digest and Psychology Today. I would scan the magazine racks and if any magazine had an article in this area I would buy it, read it and study it. (A lazy person will always and forever be ignorant.)

There is a very, very important side note here. During this time I also came across articles on basic, fundamental sanity, rationality and logic. I always doubted my sanity while I was in the cult mindset. Well, guess what? That's normal. I learned that is very common for sane minds to contain insane ideas, perceptions and belief structures. I learned that stable minds can contain unstable beliefs. Logical minds can be saturated with illogical precepts.

A sane mind recognizes insanity, and will therefore question insane thoughts, ideas, beliefs and will therefore question it's own sanity. A mind that is fundamentally "insane" will only question the sanity of others. The biggest question in a fundamentally insane mind is, "Why can't everyone else see how great I really am?" That concept is a huge, gigantic warning flag. Intolerance of other viewpoints is another gigantic warning flag.

A cult mindset creates insanity within sane minds. It creates irrational beliefs within rational minds. And it saturates illogic within logical minds. The cult mindset exists in all area of life, not just religion. Jobs, bosses, save the whales, family traditions, etc. All of these can be a cult mindset. It is a dark spot of humanity in general that goes far beyond just religion. (The same is true with racism, but that's a different subject. Any man who hates a black because of his skin color will also hate me, and hate all others -he will simply change labels to suit his internal hate of perceived inferiors. It's that simple, and it works both ways. This is also true of gender.) Shem, Ham and Japath had nothing whatsoever to do with it.

My study of myself opened my eyes to the "real world." And I was left with 4 choices. Considering my age and station in life, only computer programming was my realistic choice.

Maybe I should mention that this was NOT a matter of money. At this time, my bring-home pay was $800-900 per week (In 1988). But I hated and despised every minute of what I was doing. When I started college, I was making more money than my instructors. (Some of them even asked "me" for advice.)

My whole point is this -you have to find "yourself," and you have to discover what you should be doing with the rest of "your" life. This is not easy, but what is?

Replace the old ways -with new ways that will actually work. Replace the old, with the new. Find yourself as an individual, and be what you were born to be. What you were born to be is already written in your genetics...

 Jim V NoMoreCults@AOL.com

 sir,

I don't belong to this church your talking about. I heard little about this church and just wanted to find more info about them. I don't know wether their good or bad, but the reason why i'm writing is because as I was reading your web site under what Jesus would do, it disturbs me that you really think that Jesus would say these things. Even if He agreed with you about the church doing things agaist the word, I don't think Jesus would say it like you using cruel words like crap. Sir, you sound like you have alot of bitterness and anger leading to no forgiveness of the church. What does Jesus say that wemust do toward our enemies? we must love them (matt 5:44). What does He say about forgiveness? We must forgive others or else our Father will not forgive us ( Matt 18:22-35). Brother, please let God search your heart. For He wants to heal you.

 love lisa

 REPLY:

 Lisa,

You can be the first person in the world to ever prove that the bible that you are quoting is the Word of God. You must not say "because it says it is." That doesn't wash. You can also prove to me that Jesus even ever existed, outside of the bible.

Then again, don't bother because any supposed proof out there has already been thoroughly discredited.

I hate to break this to you but what you believe with all your heart is a myth and fable. You won't believe that now, but maybe some day you will.

Any further messages from you will be blocked. Don't bother responding. I cannot deal with you people who leave your brains at the door when you enter a church.

Editor

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