The Painful Truth About The Worldwide Church of God

Email To The Editor
(Page 49)
(Mail from Kooks, Nuts and Loonies is on another page)

 

4/23/01

I just read the email of mine that you posted on 1/7/01 and I see now that what I wrote could easily be taken the wrong way.  I wrote that "if Herbert W. Armstrong had ever ordered me to kill someone I would have killed him."  What I should have written was that "if Herbert W. Armstrong had ever ordered me to kill someone I would have killed HWA."  I had the correct antecedent for the ambiguous pronoun "him" in my mind when I wrote that, so it didn't dawn on me that someone reading my email might have thought I would actually do what HWA wanted.  I felt at the time that if HWA were ever to ask such a thing of me or anyone else then that would be obvious proof that HWA had gone over the edge and needed to be blown away for ordering such a thing.  I was a big dupe for most of the 30 years I was in the stinking Worldwide Cult of Fraud, but I still kept enough common sense to know the limits of human authority.

 Bill Fairchild
Douglas, Mass.

 

Editor,

Regarding the Armenian holocaust, you said that there was a "virtually complete cooperation of the Armenians" in their own slaughter. Perhaps they had stumbled upon the great truth of "God's government" before it was revealed to Herbie. When applied to human governments, Herbie taught us that we should obey our human governments (unless they were threatening to place us under a receivership, and then it was OK to resist and flee to another state), that our human leaders were put in their positions of power over us by God, and that we should pray for our rulers. These righteous Armenians were undoubtedly trusting and praying for their Turkish leaders just as Herbie did for the California government in 1979. Armenians are still trying to get Turkey condemned by the United Nations for this genocide in 1915. Of course, the USA has systematically blocked this attempt because we want Turkey to continue buying huge amounts of weaponry from our beloved American military-industrial-congressional mafia. If they choose to use those weapons on Armenians or Kurds, who cares as long as our big businesses make profits and political whores in Congress keep getting reelected?

Another horrible catastrophe showing hundreds of unanswered prayers was the fire on board the General Slocum Steamboat on June 15, 1904 in the East River of New York. The St. Mark's German Lutheran Church had hired the boat for their 17th annual picnic, a Sunday School outing, to be held on Long Island. 1,358 passengers, mostly women and children, got on the boat. Shortly after leaving the East 3rd Street pier in New York City, the boat caught fire. 1,021 people died in this horrible disaster. Life preservers and fire hoses were defective. Every crew member, including the captain, jumped overboard to safety. It was the worst disaster ever in American coastal waters. Many survivors committed suicide afterwards because they had lost their children or spouses.

Bill Fairchild
Douglas, Mass.

 Here's yet another recent massive disaster for your work in progress (Acts of God, etc.):

 On November 13, 1985, the Nevado del Ruiz volcano erupted in Colombia. The eruption, intense rain, and the seismic activity led to the breaking up of several glaciers, which then caused an avalanche of mud and rocks which buried 25,000 people alive.

Bill

A recent post entitled "Calling a Spade a Spade" contained a paragraph and invitation to the reader to reflect on it and its immediate effect on the reader's emotions. So here goes.

My immediate (not edited as a result of checking things out in a library -just memories from my past education, reading, conversations with friends, etc.) reactions are:

 I am white, and I have to tell ya folks: All you Black people and Chinese and Mexicans are different than I. So are you Jews and Indians and Arab people.

Trivially true. I happen to be white myself and also differ from "the speaker".

 I also don't happen to like homosexuality. It goes against nature, against the Design of Life.

"It goes against nature" is a bit doubtful. Homosexual behavior has been observed among various animal species in the wild. Given those observations, I am not sure what "goes against nature" would mean. If such observations of nonhuman animals had not been made, the question of whether or not actual human behavior should be considered "natural" would remain.

Independently of the observations I mentioned, I don't really know what "against the Design of Life" means.

 There is, and provably HAS been for decades if not more, a conspiracy to unite the nations of the world under a Global umbrella of one type or other.

 Need elucidation here. If the establishment and activities of the League of Nations and later the United Nations qualifies as a conspiracy, I suppose that would be true.

 President Bush's ancestors' family business interests helped finance Hitler, and good ole Abraham Lincoln himself believed  that Black folks weren't entitled to freedom.

I don't know about the Bush family affairs in the 1930's and 1940's. A new book out apparently argues that IBM was heavily involved in the Nazi machine, and I suppose it likely that the Bush family at least had stock in IBM. I don't know how far back the Bush family's "oil interests" go, and my knowledge of German military presence in the Middle East oil regions during that era is very limited. So, maybe.

On the claim about Lincoln, I don't remember hearing/reading anything about that. I have heard that once he said something like "If I could maintain the integrity of the Union without freeing the slaves, I would do so."

 The IRS is illegal and the Federal Reserve Bank is  unconstitutional

Judging these claims is beyond my current knowledge. I have heard them before.

Presumably the IRS has been established by statute, so I would suppose that it is ipso facto legal. But I may well be wrong about its establishment. As far as I know, no Federal court of law has ruled that the Federal Reserve Bank is unconstitutional and not had that ruling reversed. Operationally, I take that to be the general definition of unconstitutionality. Although conceptually, I might concede the point, because a case must be brought before a court before the court can rule on constitutionality, or so I believe.

 Almost ALL of the stories you've EVER heard about Daniel Boone actually were stories about a giant of a frontiersman by the name of Simon Kenton.

Haven't done the Google web search. Or I could read the book mentioned later in the post. OK, if you say so.

----

On the larger point of the post, I admit that at first blush I would consider "the speaker" of the paragraph to be of limited education and insight, but would not be angered. But I believe that generally I am a bit harder to rile up than average.

A couple of months ago, I stumbled upon David Brin's (unless you are a science fiction fan, you probably don't recognize the name) list of questions to ask yourself and your friends. These are similar in spirit to the point of "Calling a Spade a Spade", so people who like the post might also like David's list:

http://www.kithrup.com/brin/questionaire.htm

 --Todd (yup, former WWCG member)

I have been glued to this site ever since discovering it this year, primarily because I began watching the World Tomorrow around 1987 and was impressed by the slick, news magazine-like format. The anchors seem truly on point as far as prophecy is concern (this is the "draw" for many people who are genuinely God-fearing and have a sense of longing for the return of Jesus Christ). But I never got involved with WCG (although I received tons of literature) and boy, am I glad! However, as I read the "Ambassador Report" and all the goings-on I became amazed that Herbert W. Armstrong and that whole gang of toads (including the lawyers perhaps the greasiest of them all save Armstrong) did not get incarcerated during their heyday. Had I been aware of AR before, I would have undoubtedly sent in a contribution on a monthly basis.

I applaud the publishers of this site and the AR. If other cult victims would so honestly and ingeniously expose the truth, I do not dare to wonder how many could be saved from the financial, emotional, and spiritual stripping that is so prevalent in the name of God, perpetrated on people who have a real hunger for meaning in life and who want to strengthen themselves spiritually.

Now I see this Rod Meredith on television (one morning when I could not sleep) spouting the same old nonsense, looking tired but still eager to pick up where his god, Herbie "The Wolf" Armstrong, left off (probably had to pry that last tithing letter out of his dead, cold hands). Then there's Gerald Flurry who's certifiable stinking up another channel. It would be really nice if the world were warned about these people. Finally, is "Armstrong's Tangled Web" still in print?

You have done WCG members and non-members alike a valuable service in "The Painful Truth", and a great debt is truly owed. I am very impressed with the body of work I read. I'm sure God has blessed you for your marvelous work.

Sylvester

REPLY:

Sylvester,

The Tangled Web is still available. Just write to the address and the book will be send to you by Robinson's widow. She gets all proceeds from the book.

I can't say that god has blessed me because of the website but I can definitely say that no god has cursed me because of it.

Regards,

Editor

 ----Original Message ----

From: "Stanfield Financial Group, LLC" woottski@yahoo.com

 You seemed somewhat credible until you mentioned how "why didn't God just clearly spell out the tithing laws all in one place? Why scatter it all over hell and back? "

When an unbeliever reads how scripture is written all over "hell and back".... is that going to draw them into Christ? No.

Your page is full of bitterness and strife. Try walking in love and worry about yourself. God will take care of the rest.

RWS

I feel so bad for all the lives that have been destroyed because of the WWCOG cult. my heart bleeds. God its insanity!

Gregory

REPLY:

Good news, Gregory, you are definitely not ministerial material.

Editor

Hi!

I am glad there are web sites like yours that expose Armstrongism ( & the other sites on Herbert W. Armstrong & others), but do not try to convert others to bornagainism!

I went to: bible-idolatry.htm and clicked on the link for "What have you got to lose by believing the fundamentalist message?" , but when I did it gave an error message from Secular Spirituality. I went to their main site & found the correct link.

The correct link is:

http://www.secularspirituality.org/recovery/whatlose.html .

 I was a born again Xian for most of my religious career, leaving it all in about 1992. A book which I didn't have then, but is a good one, as far as I could tell when I read it, is Tim Callahan's "Bible Prophecy: Failure or Fulfillment?" ( Millennium Press). One of its chapters deals with one of the main issues why I left Bible beliefthe Xian 'messianic prophecy' issue. I recommend it for your web site

Have you heard of, or read it??

Harry

REPLY:

 Harry,

I haven't read the book you recommend but will look into it.

Thanks for the correction on the link. It worked at one time but I never know when someone changes their site structure when I have an external link. I wish more people would help me keep the links up to date. I will correct it later tonight.

Yeah, the "bornagainism" is a pain in the ass and I will have none of it. I imagine that there are some that will say that my promoting "freedom from religion" is just another form of religion but I really don't give a rat's ass. This site has a particular point of view and if people don't like it they can just keep on surfing.

Best Regards,
Editor

 Hi :

Your pages reveal how many WCG ministers can compromise their character and values.

I read the debate you had with Grant Spong. I remember him at Brickett Wood in the early seventies as a humble, decent Freshman from Australia, who had had a modest, but real job before entering AC.

I lost any contact with him until I read about him in your pages. What a change! Modesty? gone! Humility? fled! To be replaced by a mixture of self-pity and self-righteousness that reads like a Dickensian parody.

I'm not picking on him as a person, but on the whole vast army of church-employed ministers who believe that God owed them a living.

Read his "Last Sermon" at http://churches.wcg.org/greensboro-nc/last.htm

Just a small sample : "When I was first told I would be laid off due to a financial shortfall, it was a shock. I have been very supportive of our denomination's reformation. When advanced education was required, I even went above and beyond, by paying for it at my own expense."

Comment : Shock! Horror! A WCG Minister having to dip into his own pocket. Note : What about those of us who left AC with a worthless degree? Who had to pay "at our own expense", without a choice, for several years of night-school, to make up for the hollow promises and wasted years at AC.

Another sample :

"I can disagree with those who lead this denomination, but I may not bear any ill will. If I have been wronged, my only Christian option is to forgive."

Comment : Go on Grant, indulge yourself. As they say in your native Australia "Chuck a Wobbly". Note : I just hope that any other ministers in the same position can now know how the laity feel. They suffered your abuse. The biter is now bit!

Anyway, if you choose to read the sermon, the drivel goes on and on. This is not meant as a particular attack on one individual. It was meant to show, from their own lips, how the Darkside of the Force (read Paypacket) changed them.

I hope they have the guts to face it and repent.

Jonathan

Dear Mr Ingersoll

I was searching the NET for information on the WWCoG, as I am helping a couple who have come out of the movement and I needed some information. However, I came upon your site, particularly your article, "A Few Reasons For Doubting

The Inspiration Of The Bible". As a Christian minister, I come across a number of people who have objections to certain parts of the Bible, usually due to misunderstanding.

However, I find some of your "reasons" very general and without substantiation.

Let me say, at the outset, I am not trying to convert you, I just read those so-called "reasons" and shake my head.

The purpose of my Email is to see whether you are serious about defending your "reasons" or whether it will be a complete waste of time for me to even try. I am very busy, as I am sure you are, and wonder whether there is any point in challenging you on your reasons.

Looking forward to hearing from you

George Ayoub

Minister

Casino Presbyterian Church

NSW Australia

 REPLY:

George, You'll be waiting a long time for Ingersol to reply to you; he died in 1899. More info on Ingersol at: http://www.infid els.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/

I do not intend to take Ingersol's place in a debate with you, I've done quite enough of that in the past. A lot of time is wasted, nobody changes their beliefs and finally everyone just gets bored or insulted.

I gather you feel able to disprove some of his points. As far as I'm concerned, all it takes is one error in the bible and the whole thing is questionable. We mere humans should not have to try to sort out of "God's holy book" what he wanted in there and what was put in there by humans or by accident. What a waste of time.

I will give you the opportunity to prove to me that the bible is the word of God. The only rule is that you cannot use bible quotations to prove it. For example, you cannot say that "the bible says that it is breathed by god," therefore it is breathed by god. Sorry, that is ridiculous on its face. There must be some reason, other than blind faith, or "my parents believed it," or "everybody else believes it" or "everyone at the school I went to believed it," for WHY you believe it is from god, right? You must have some proof, right?

I ask this knowing that you have no proof. Don't take it too hard though, because there is no proof simply because the bible was not inspired by any god. It is a collection of fables, superstitions, contradictions, some history and a lot of religious propaganda written by scribes and rival priests and "god" only knows who else. It is a book filled with evil and the god that it purports to be the god of creation is an evil god, killing millions of people for the crime of having the weaknesses that he supposedly created them with.

It is too bad that Ingersol is not around to debate you but, if you read his writings, you will see that there is nothing new to debate; it has all been done long before you came along. You bible believers lost the debate but you are too filled with blind faith to recognize it.

I also shake my head.

Editor

4/30/01

This would be in response to Todd (yup, former WWCG member) in a recent email.

Todd, I'd like to thank you for posting a response to the Editor and this website concerning my recent small article. While I am often lacking in insight and maturity, as well as suffering from an acute case of lack of education, I actually DID hope to make some folks think a little.

If there is any further points in that small paragraph to discuss or comment on, I'd be happy to, but my purpose in responding here, publicly, is to tell you that:

I thank you sir!!

Thank you for taking time out and giving myself and these good readers your input. For caring enough to share. Not enough people do, and the more WE all become involved and try to become rational, thinking and Free people, the safer we all are. The healthier we all are.

So.... There ya have it, dude.....:)

Thanks for being a part!!!

Yours,

Mike M

The other day I posted a response to "Calling a Spade a Spade" which contained a URL reference to a list of questions composed by David Brin.

One of those list items is quoted below.

Too bad Ambassador College students were not required to demonstrate a serious exploration of it before being allowed to graduate.

The question:

 THE TOXICITY OF IDEAS: Please choose between the following:

You think ideas are inherently dangerous or toxic. People are easily deceived. An elite should guide or protect gullible masses toward correct thinking. (Memic Frailty.)

You believe children can be raised with a mixture of openness and skepticism to evaluate concepts on their own merits. Citizens can pluck useful bits wherever they may be found, even from bad images or ideologies. (Memic Maturity.)

 EXTRA CREDIT FOLLOWUP:

If your answer to the preceding question was Memic Maturity, is it justifiable or hypocritical to hold "the masses" in contempt for not always agreeing with you?

If your answer to the preceding question was Memic Frailty, do you believe you should be one of the guardians or guides who help encourage right thinking? Can you be sure that belief is not, in itself, the result of conditioning by a toxic idea?

 -Todd (Ambassador College, 1970 1974)

Hi Editor,

I thought you might be interested in the article on the religion business near the bottom of the page.

Mike

THE LUCRATIVE BUSINESS OF RELIGION:

IS IT TIME FOR YOU TO CASH IN ON THE "GOOD NEWS"?

Rupert Murdoch, the great Australian publisher, told LRM (who is my partner in England) that of all his various publishing ventures, the one that makes the most money is one he doesn't like to talk about. What is it? Religious books.

Since hearing this several years ago, I've had a soft spot in my heart for religion.

In 1975, Edward G. Atsinger III and Stuart Eperson teamed up to form Salem Communications Corp. Their idea was to buy up radio stations in large markets and then sell time to religious organizations that create programming that spreads the word and collects donations. Today Salem is the country's largest broadcaster of religious programming and the 8th largest broadcaster overall. In the last six months of 1999, they reported an operating income (net before depreciation, interest and taxes) of $26.6 million on revenues of $86 million. According to Forbes magazine, the business is worth more than half a billion dollars.

Christian radio is the third most popular format in the nation (next to Country and Talk) with an estimated 28 million listeners. Makes you wonder.

 REPLY:

Thanks Mike.

Makes you wonder if it is really wrong to harvest the current crop of idiots just looking for someone to tell them what they want to hear.

Nah. Instead of shearing the sheep, they should be educating them.

But, if they did, would the people lose all hope, even though it is a false hope, and go crazy? Maybe.

Editor

Your web site is good. I always assumed the bible was Gods word. I always read the good things in the bible and glossed over the ridiculous things in the bible. Your site is thought provoking.

Gregory

 P.S. keep up the good work

 REPLY:

Keep thinking Greg.

If there is a god it has to be big enough to realize that we should be able to use our brains. We should be able to question and demand reasonable answers in regards to spiritual matters. We shouldn't have to check our brains at the door when it comes to "god."

Regards,

Editor

5/7/01

 In response to JohnB, The Lighter Side of the WCG.

Hey John...

THAT was most excellent! I remember being a young boy and watching my DAD during a Toastmasters meeting. He was a pretty good speaker, but this one night he was supposed to "Attack".

He had his podium, his captive audience, and he had his newspaper already rolled up and ready to flail away.

And he got about 2 minutes into it when he broke up and started laughing his ass off....and soon, there he was.... beating the top of this podium and laughing so hard he was crying, and the room was just rocking from everyone damn near having convulsions they were all laughing so hard:)))))

Thanks for the upbeat memory and the excellent writing....!

Yours,

MikeM

Hello, Editor.  I am a  Christian.  I am sorry that you have reciecved death threats and what not becuase of your beliefs.  I have not really read a lot of your beliefs or very much else on your sight.  I am appalled that a Christian could send a death threat.  I guess i believe that being a Christian means to be Christ like.  I dont ever see in the Bible that Jesus ever threatened any one with death other than that of the second death.  (speaking of Hell).  As i was saying i am sorry that a person or person confess the Name of Christ and act not how He would act.  i get upset about things done in the name of Christ that are not Christ like.  The Bibke oks being angry as long as you sin not.  I guess the those that are Christians,  go ahead and be angry but Death threats Common, where is God in that?  I am sorry Editor about your negative expereience In the World Church of God.  I am not familiar with it! .  I just hope those that confess to be Christian would act as Christ would.  I know we are far from perfect, but we need to act different than that of a Savage.

Sincerely,

Jeremiah

 REPLY:

 Jeremiah,

If people could just stick with what the "bible Jesus" says and does the world would be a much better place.

It is when they start "interpreting" and putting their own religious spin on things that there is trouble.

Editor

 The link below will take you to a humorous article explaining why God did such a flip-flop between the Old and New Testaments (vengeance vs. mercy, e.g.). This may help explain why so many of his most zealous adherents have the same malady (like Herbert W. Armstrong). Enjoy. :-)

Bill

 

Hello.I pray that You will be so convicted over this website.I pray you will soon and VERY soon know that truth, and the TrUTH WILL SET YOU FREE. God delivered 2 of my cousins from every kind of Drug you can think of.He is my redeemer, my healer, my Savior,my BESTFRIEND. I REBUKE DARKNESS OVER YOUR EYES IN THE NAME OF JESUS,and I will continually Pray for you...

Love of Christ

 REPLY:

 Sorry, its not working. Can you just pray a little harder? Its still dark here. I desperately need your help.

I need Jesus but I can't find him anywhere, other than in the Bible, and I know that the bible is an EVIL book.

I'm lost and I have no hope at all, other than you intervening for me with Jesus. Please do not watch any television, have sex, drink beer or even go to work until you have prayed me out of my lost state. I gather this is something that you have had some success with in the past. Better yet, go to my Acts of God webpage and pray for these millions and millions of people that your god could have just merely saved their lives, but didn't. Your god turned his back on them but you assume that he is going to remove the darkness from my eyes simply because you utter a few words to him. Do you realize how vain that makes you?

Don't you realize that there are so many more worthwhile things to get your god to do than to have him bring me to Jesus?

Editor

Hello again. If you choose not to believe in My Almighty Savior, go ahead and do so.I pray that He opens your eyes and breaks through that darkness so you will see the truth.It really hurts me to see that the enemy has you to believe a lie that the Bible is an evil book.The Devil must be extremely scared.He is scared because he knows that Jesus is comming back soon and the Devil knows that there is a great Revival and Move of God going around all over the world and SOULS are RUNNING to Christ,the one that loves YOU with UNFAILING LOVE,the one that is HOLY,RIGHTOUS AND TRUE .The Devil also knows tht God has raised up (and still is raising up) an Army of People around the world to proclaim the Truth and say "Whatever it Takes",and noone and nothing can stop the ALMIGHT GOD. IF YOUR LIVIVG LIKE THERE IS NO GOD,YOUD BETTER BE RIGHT! I Trust God will show you somehow.His very character is faithfulness,and you cannot convince me otherwise. You say "look at the people God has killed and harmed and 'could have saved ' but didnt ".By that right there, I know the enemy is EXTREMELY NERVOUS AND SCARED. DO you know that he has told you a BIG LIE? The DEvil comes ONLY but to STEAL,KILL AND DESTROY.rEAD jJOHN 10:10.Think about that for a minute,But GOd has cometh that YOU may have an abundant,joyful life. YOu say "Then why dont I have it?" Ya know why? Because you dont belive in HIm.He hasnt turned His back on you.You turned your back on Him, and no matter what you do, or even what you say, God's mercy is sufficient.God DOES NOT KILL,The ENEMY KILLS. Jesus died on the cross for your sins,that you may have eternal life with Him.i PRAY FOR YOU AND loVE YOU AS Christ LOVES YOU.The Heavens and sky PROCLAIM the work of his hands.The Bible says" The fool sayeth in his heart that There is no GOd."Jesus loves you and his arms are wide opened.Give Him a chance,and let him change your life.

Sincerely, "Servant of Christ,who says "Whatever it takes"

 Ps..I will put you and your website on my church prayer list.Lets just see what happens.

 REPLY:

YOU WROTE:
Ps..I will put you and your website on my church prayer list.Lets just see what happens.

REPLY:

Can we put a time limit on this? I already have one good Christian that has been praying that I would die for the last three years. His prayers are obviously very ineffective, as I suspect yours will be, at least I hope so.

Editor

From: "Kenneth Grove" kennyg@stratos.net

Subject: Herbie

 I quess ol Herbie really did win. You did not even have to believe in Jesus your Savior but "qualify" for the "place of safety". Now you invite others to plunge deeper into the darkness by somehow offering them "recovery" through your cold spirit and your abusive lifestyle and language? Go get professional help, Herbie Jr.

 REPLY:

 Kenneth,

Thank you for your warm Christian message. "Cold spirit and abusive lifestyle and language?"

Now you have converted me by being nice to me.

I can see by your attitude how you Christians have killed and lied your way from a wacky little cult to a huge, mainstream, wacky cult.

I invite you to go to hell. It will be a step up from the blindness you presently wallow in.

Editor

Editor, On page 189 of juniors book he says "I'd like to close this chapter with a story. A little while ago some of us had lunch with a well known evangelical leader and author. Toward the end of our time together he said something incredible for us in the WWCOG." He does not give this persons name. This leader says, "Let me tell you where I am on this thing, I think when your dad gave that sermon on Christmas Eve, God was tapping herbert w armstrong on the shoulder and saying, 'Take a look at this--I want to show you something.' And I think herbert armstrong was leading the cheers when your dad introduced the new covenant to the WWCOG". Junior concludes by saying, "I like the sound of that. I like it a whole lot"

I hope I did not ruin your lunch with this crap but I thought you may find it a bit laughable. Warm regards

Greg

 REPLY:

Gregory,

Just some of Joe's fancy tap dancing around the truth. Doesn't take a brain surgeon to see what they are doing but it makes a good living for the mis-leaders.

Best,

Editor

Dear Editor,

 I was doing a little surfing today when I came upon this site. Have you seen it? It really bothered me. I guess your used this kind of thing. He has a link to the Painful Truth web site. I didn't care for what he said, but maybe it is good to have a link. What do you say? Read the comments page also.

Nina

http://apollo.spaceports.com/~truth/index.html

http://apollo.spaceports.com/~truth/index.html

 REPLY:

 Who was it that said: "say what you want about me, just spell my name right"? Well, as long as he gets my URL right..................

I don't know where he gets some of the comments

HIS:
"People who reject God and the Bible will not automatically be nice people. Rather, they will probably end up being immoral and rude, just like the hypocrites who go to church but don't obey the laws of God. "

MY REPLY:
I guess we know what would happen to his morals or ethics if he did not have the god of the bible standing over him with the threat of eternal torture and damnation. I prefer to have ethics and morals in spite of religion.

HIS:
"Some writers brag about smoking, getting drunk, fornicating, undressing the little neighbor girl, being homosexual, etc. Sometimes, they seem to be worse than the people they criticize."

MY REPLY:
Where the hell did he get that? What is wrong with smoking? Is that a sin? Oh. I almost forgot. People did get kicked out of the cult for that, didn't they.

"Getting drunk?" I guess Herbie set the example for that. I don't do it myself. I would say that membership in the cult would give a person reason enough to be a drunk, though.

"Undressing the little neighbor girl"? Where is that? I did a search of the site and the word undress is only used on two pages. One is GTA and Geraldo and the other is the Acts of God page.

"Homosexuals?"

Without the bible ruining my life and screwing up my mind, I no longer stand in judgment of people's sexual preferences. I have no desire to participate with them but they can do in private what they want, as adults.

As in the past, I have noticed that Christians have no problem lying for Jesus. I accuse the author of the Plain Truth Website of being a liar just like his father, the devil.

I could get into a debate with the guy but I don't have the time or the desire.

He has a couple of links to my site, I don't to his. Who wins that battle? He won't even put a counter on his pages. I'll bet he doesn't get too many hits.

Editor

  REPLY:

Dear Editor,

 Yes, I also don't think he gets many hits on his site. I don't blame you for not wanting to get into a debate with him. I know you have better things to do, like your wood working and redoing your bathroom. We do have a life after WCG, don't we.

 I'm not sure I know who I'm writing too, but if your the one who has strong opinions about abortion, I just wanted to say, I don't really believe in abortion either. I don't care for the Christian Coalition (SP?) controlling the Republican Party. My sister who is a lesbian was a Republican for a long time. It wasn't until lately she became a Democrat. It was mainly those Christians controlling things that bothered her. I still don't care to get into hot debates with people on politics.

Sincerely, Nina

  REPLY:

I don't agree with abortion.

I don't agree with the Christian Coalition but I don't see them influencing the Republicans to an extent where I would want a Democrat in the Presidency.

You have to weigh all the pros and cons. We still have the Constitution to protect us from letting religion get too much into the politics.

The Constitution will not protect us from Democratic politicians not allowing us to drill for oil and natural gas when we need it so desperately, it does not protect us from Democratic politicians weakening our armed forces, it does not protect us from Democratic politicians not building a defense against nuclear missiles being launched against us, it does not protect us from Democratic politicians wanting to NOT solve the problem of social security but wanting, instead, to use it to keep scaring people by saying that Republicans will take it away from the old people, it does not protect us from Democratic politicians making ridiculous laws to protect us from non-existent or miniscule or tolerable pollution...........

I could go on but, even if you didn't vote for Bush, believe me, you are a lot better off now that he is in office than you would have been with Gore.

This is not a debate. ;-)

Editor

From: Brian Greaves

Subject: what are you looking for Ed?

 Hey Ed,

Just so you know where I am coming from, I am "Christian". That means that I believe Jesus was who he said he was and that I accept Christ as my Lord and Savior. I know you deny Jesus said anything about him being anything more than a "friend" or "buddy". I don't want to go into that. But my point here is that I am not a good person. Being good is not what makes people Christians. Jesus dying for you and you accepting his gift of salvation is what makes you a Christian. Nothing else. There are many people who claim to be "Christians". There are many people sitting in churches today that are not Christians. There are churches that are wrongly teaching people and that are looking to make money. People screw up, true Christians screw up, I screw up.

 There is one fact that is certain in this world Ed, and only one, we all die. There is only one thing that we must do in this life before we die, and only one, make that choice. This is why we are here Ed. God wants to know, do you love him, and do you want to be with him for all eternity or do you not. People complicate things. People screw things up. But this is life in a nutshell. Have you already made up your mind Ed? It is your choice, God has given you that. He loves you more than humanly possible. But he must give you that freewill, it wouldn't be love otherwise.

take care,

Brian

REPLY:

 YOU WROTE:
There is only one thing that we must do in this life before we die, and only one, make that choice.

REPLY:
I gather that you can prove that without using the bible because first you would have to prove that the bible is god's word, and you cannot do that either.

 YOU WROTE:
This is why we are here Ed.

REPLY:
I gather that you can prove that without using the bible because first you would have to prove that the bible is god's word, and you cannot do that either.

 YOU WROTE:
God wants to know, do you love him, and do you want to be with him for all eternity or do you not.

REPLY:
I gather that you can prove that without using the bible because first you would have to prove that the bible is god's word, and you cannot do that either.

 YOU WROTE:
There is one fact that is certain in this world Ed, and only one, we all die.

REPLY:
Don't bother, I can prove this myself.

 YOU WROTE:
Have you already made up your mind Ed?

REPLY:
I have decided that I will only believe those things that I can prove. If you can provide me some proof, my mind is open. My mind is free. What have you based your beliefs on, things that can be proved or things which cannot be proved? If you base your life and beliefs on things you cannot prove, you stand on nothing. You are gullible and in no position to judge anyone else or insist that they take up your beliefs.

 YOU WROTE:
It is your choice, God has given you that.

REPLY:
I gather that you can prove that without using the bible because first you would have to prove that the bible is god's word, and you cannot do that either.

YOU WROTE:
He loves you more than humanly possible

REPLY:
Ah, yes. His love does surpass any understanding that I have. I look at all those millions upon millions of people that I have noted on my Acts of God webpage and see how he just loved these people to DEATH. Their deaths.

If this god is so concerned about us, I would expect to see just a little demonstration of that love, other than a lot of wacko preachers and wacked out followers going around telling others that "god loves you" while every indication that I see is that, if there is a god, he does not get involved in our human lives at all. I see humans demonstrating much more love than god.

I have proof of what I believe or I don't believe it.

You have fairy tales and fantasy.

Editor

REPLY:

 From: Brian Greaves
 Subject: Re: what are you looking for Ed?

YOUR REPLY:
I gather that you can prove that without using the bible because first you would have to prove that the bible is god's word, and you cannot do that either.

REPLY:
Nor can you disprove the Bible. It takes faith to believe in something that science cant touch. Just as you must have faith that the Bible is not true. Its your choice.

 

I WROTE:
There is one fact that is certain in this world Ed, and only one, we all die.

YOUR REPLY:
Don't bother, I can prove this myself.

REPLY:
See we can agree on somethings.

 YOUR REPLY:
I have decided that I will only believe those things that I can prove. If you can provide me some proof, my mind is open. My mind is free. What have you based your beliefs on, things that can be proved or things which cannot be proved? If you base your life and beliefs on things you cannot prove, you stand on nothing. You are gullible and in no position to judge anyone else or insist that they take up your beliefs.

REPLY:
You will never "prove" God. So therefore you will never believe in him. So where did you come from Ed? How did you come to be? Dont tell me you were an accident because you cannot prove it. Dont tell me science proves that we came to be by chance, because it cant, and to believe it would take Faith. You are right, I am in no position to judge and insist that they take up my beliefs. I dont. People are here to make there own choices.

 YOUR REPLY:
Ah, yes. His love does surpass any understanding that I have. I look at all those millions upon millions of people that I have noted on my Acts of God webpage and see how he just loved these people to DEATH. Their deaths. If this god is so concerned about us, I would expect to see just a little demonstration of that love, other than a lot of wacko preachers and wacked out followers going around telling others that "god loves you" while every indication that I see is that, if there is a god, he does not get involved in our human lives at all. I see humans demonstrating much more love than god.

REPLY:
Ah yes, the "if God cared why does he let people suffer?" response. Well can't answer that one and I suspect you dont expect one either. But you can easily read the paper and see all the bad things that happen, mostly because its our own dumb fault, but you cant be everywhere and see all that goes on. Life is tough and temporary, yeah bad things happen. You dont see God work, I dont see it all the time either. You know, I was reading the Bible one night and asked God to show me the verse I was looking for right there and then. He didnt. But the next day when I went to work, my very first customer (i was a waiter at the time) wore a t-shirt with the verse I asked God to show me. What are the chances (no it wasnt John 3:16)....i dont know. Do I think God answered my prayer? yes..but I Faith that he exist and will answer if you ask him.

 REPLY:

 From: "Editor" Email "> <Email
To: "Brian Greaves" <briangreaves@mediaone.net
Subject: Re: what are you looking for Ed?

 Brian,

 YOU WROTE:
 Nor can you disprove the Bible.

 REPLY:
I would say that one thing that would prove that the Bible is not inspired by any god worth worshipping would be to show that there are inconsistencies in the text. Anything that would cause the reader confusion would make the bible imperfect and therefore not written or inspired by a perfect god. One would think that the purpose of the Bible would be to enlighten the reader about god, not confuse them. Also, any god worth worshipping would not write a book that was possible to misinterpret at all since the reader's eternal life depends on knowing exactly what this god wants from us.

 Consistency would not leave out relevant detail and leave it to the reader to search through the book to come up with details that could mean eternal life or death. A person should not have to make excuses for what the book plainly says. I mean what I write and I write what I mean. I would expect at least that from a God.

 I will not bore myself with the details of all the many, many instances of inconsistencies in the bible. I also will not debate whether these are actual inconsistencies. Let the reader decide on his own. If, in your religious delusion, you insist on justifying confusion from a God, then go ahead and follow him. I will not do the same.

 

 Yes, I know that there are other websites justifying these inconsistencies but they only make excuses for this god not meaning what he supposedly has said in his book. I find no logical reason to worship such an imperfect being.

 And, just to be very clear, I think that just one instance of an inconsistency would prove that the bible is imperfect and therefore not of a perfect, omnipotent God that wants us to use it, with all its flaws to try to figure out the perfect way to keep Him happy so that we will have eternal life.

 YOU WROTE:
 It takes faith to believe in something that science cant touch.

 REPLY:
Faith is the problem, not the solution.

Blind faith frees you from thinking, of course, which is why it's so appealing.

I guess you can be very proud that you can believe in something that cannot be proved to be whatever you think it is. You believe it, well, just because you believe it. No proof necessary. No evidence necessary. In the face of contrary evidence, "don't confuse me with the facts, I've made up my mind."

I'm sorry but I don't have a lot of patience with gullibility.

  YOU WROTE:
Just as you must have faith that the Bible is not true.

 REPLY:
No. I have proof that it is not true. You have excuses. You are an enabler for a dysfunctional and confused god. By ignoring his confusion, you encourage it. This god of yours really needs psychiatric help.

YOU WROTE:
You will never "prove" God. So therefore you will never believe in him.

 REPLY:
I have proved that the god worshipped by you and all the gods I see worshipped by this world are not any gods that I want anything to do with. I do not feel obligated to believe in your fantasies.

 YOU WROTE:
So where did you come from Ed? How did you come to be? Dont tell me you were an accident because you cannot prove it.

REPLY:
I don't have to have an answer, I'm an agnostic: "I don't know." It doesn't really matter to me and it obviously doesn't matter to "god" since "god" hasn't seen fit to show me that answer.

A farfetched, science fiction possibility: some advanced beings may have started life on this planet, years ago and they are waiting until we reach a state of development where they can come back and give us eternal life and make us their eternal slaves. Isn't that an attractive theory? Eternal life as a slave. I'll bet that a lot of people would get tired of eternal life real quick.

 YOU WROTE:
I am in no position to judge and insist that they take up my beliefs. I dont. People are here to make there own choices.

 REPLY:
So, why do you bother me with your ridiculous arguments? I didn't find your website and write to you. Just what do YOU want?

 YOU WROTE:
You know, I was reading the Bible one night and asked God to show me the verse I was looking for right there and then. He didnt. But the next day when I went to work, my very first customer (i was a waiter at the time) wore a t-shirt with the verse I asked God to show me. What are the chances (no it wasnt John 3:16)....i dont know. Do I think God answered my prayer? yes..

 REPLY:
You call a silly coincidence an answered prayer all to justify your own addiction to "fear religion." Why don't you say a prayer that would require an answer that could not be interpreted in any other way other than godly intervention? Why don't you give your god a real test? I suspect you have but when you don't get an answer you just chalk it up to the answer being no. That is really pathetic.

 Please do explain to me why your god would take the time to answer this pathetic and useless prayer while he let people call out for help on their cell phones to police while they were buried under a mudslide in El Salvador a couple months ago. The police couldn't find them and god didn't save them. Do you think that your prayer was more fervent than theirs? Do you think that you had the right church or the right translation or the right interpretation of "god's word" and they didn't so god did his magic trick for you but let them slowly die a miserable terror filled death? What kind of monster god do you worship?

 Editor

 

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