The Painful Truth About The Worldwide Church of God

Email To The Editor
(Page 47)
(Mail from Kooks, Nuts and Loonies is on another page)

 

3/8/01

2 the Editor/s:


This is an update on Richard Ames, (as requested) and why he's now with the Living Cult of Meredith. It's also in reply to a query in the editor's letters, as to this character's ID.


Dick Ames has been around forever, and was openly regarded (by the Pasadena students) as an innocuous nobody. It must be said, however, that he is reputedly very loyal. We must assume, that like most hirelings, he followed the money trail. His loyalty is now, obviously to Roddy M, and Roddy's Living Cult. Ames was first employed at Pasadena and then eventually worked in the library (or some such similar occupation) at Big Sandy. That's where I found him one day while on a B.S. visit. They apparently found he was competent enough to carry books. This task was seemingly within his limits.
His big break came when he married Kathryn Meredith - that's Roddy's sister. Kathryn, from what I remember, was the typical WCG wife. Quiet, smiling, non-committal, nice person, completely subject to her husband, non argumentative, and apparently - pretty much like a wallflower. Her presence (according to those who chatted about this in the congregation) was hardly noticeable. This scenario was considered "proper" for all cult wives. From the time of his marriage to Kathryn, Ames' rise to success was slow, but automatic. This was at the time when Meredith ran the Church Admin Dept.at Pasadena like a wild, out-of-control fuehrer. For a time, the Ames couple lived in a Big Sandy luxury home that was furnished the same way. Naturally, as with all the higher up's perks, the tithepayers bore the cost for all this. I know, because a few of us (ignorant at the time) were inside this home and had "coffee and cookies" with Dicky's wife. We personally witnessed the way they lived. Believe me, it weren't too shabby.


The home was on (what was dubbed as) "millionaire" row at Big Sandy, had plenty of land around it, was private, and had a clear view of the Big Sandy runway, so they could see Teddy's (in and out - of B.S., of course) jaunts, and the "good time" privileged, faculty boys touch-and-going on the runway (at tithepayers' expense) in the Cessna 182 while they learned the art of flying. They could also witness (with adulation, no doubt) Apostle Herbie's comings and goings, and the offloading of all that Dom Perignon and Mateus wine from the cargo hold of the Gulfstream. The "feast" time didn't come only in the Fall for Apostle Herbie. It was feasting time all year round. But, in this position of "authority," the Ames obviously knew of all the shenanigans that went on. If Meredith knew (and he did), then the Ames certainly knew of all the misconduct as well. So, they must be regarded as accessories after the fact, and must indeed share the guilt of thousands of damaged lives. When Roddy left to form his own Living cult, Dicky went with him. Where else was he gonna go?


I heard Ames speak once, and it was so forgetful and boring that it helped everyone grab a wink or two. But his power base came from his relationship to Roddy M. I personally considered Ames pretty much of a wimp, and certainly NO leader. He's aligned himself - I assume - with Roddy for the continued adulation, and of course, the paycheck. Roddy could have picked a better speaker to spread his Living cultic poison, but it appears, that Ames is the best that Roddy could find.


4 wot it's worth. JohnO.

In REPLY TO

Hi again,

You're right, my name remains in the hall of shame, as does that of all Christians and their churches. All Christians are wrong and all churches are cults to one degree or another. All churches are abusive and in desperate need of someone to pay the penalty for their sins. The churches do not save anyone from their sins. Thankfully, we have a God who loved us so much that he died for us. Sadly, you don't even have that at the present time because you reject it. What you don't understand is that you too have screwed up royally, deeply hurt some people's lives and desperately need to apologize. What you also don't understand is that you don't need to carry the guilt any more, because a substitute carries it for you and me, leaving us both uncondemned and without shame. You cannot condemn that which no longer carries condemnation in the highest court in the universe. In the end all the damage you and I have done will be undone. There is no other way. God does exist, and he loves you. He does not condemn you or me for our pasts, but seeks to heal and erase the pain.

Blessings, Grant.

REPLY:

Well, it is very convenient for you to put all the blame on someone you cannot even prove ever existed, and, if you could prove he existed, cannot prove was ever a "god" or ever had any power to forgive your sins. Even if you had a god that could forgive your "sins" that is "his" forgiveness, not mine. If you have offended me, I will decide whether you are forgiven or not. I will decide whether I will accept a stand-in for the payment of your offences. You can't just walk away from a traffic accident that you caused and say you put the blame on Jesus.

What does it teach a person if he can do anything he wants, get caught, and have someone else pay the penalty? But, that is what makes Christianity so attractive, isn't it? "Uncondemned and without shame" describes you and your fellow minister types. Rape, pillage, steal, kill, lie, doesn't matter; you are forgiven. The perfect crime. Thank you JESUS!

Your Christian fantasies and fairy tales do not wash with someone who is not a Christian. And, there is much more proof available that there is no god that cares one little shit about humanity than that there is one. See the "Acts of God" page.

Editor

REPLY:

 Hi,

Proof? There are various schools of thought on that score. Modern "proof" tends to be either legal, scientific or empirical. Historically, there are the Greek philosophical schools of thought and their various proof techniques. Other western schools of thought throughout the ages were based to some degree or other on the Greeks. Of course the orientals had their own ideas of proof as well. The bottom line in all that is that proof is only what you or I will accept. As one professor of mine once said, proof is "what it takes to convince you." One man looks at a blade of grass and knows there is a God. Another examines everything a lifetime of education in all fields could teach and remains a skeptic. I guess that you are in the latter category.

I have enjoyed our brief interactions. If you want to discuss this further, I am happy to do so. I don't mind that we disagree. Disagreement can be stimulating and helpful if handled well. We disagree in some fundamental areas, but I have tried to look past your roughness and consider the substance of what you said. It has been interesting. For now I will close our discussion with a little humor: Did you know that God doesn't believe in atheists?

Blessings, Grant

REPLY:

YOU WROTE:
Did you know that God doesn't believe in atheists?

REPLY:
Well, I am not an Atheist. I am Agnostic, which means I don't know. And those of you that think you know only deceive yourselves.

I do know one thing: I can prove that Atheists exist. Neither one of us can prove that a caring, concerned God exists. We can wish it. We can hope it. We can have blind faith in it. But all the evidence points to an uncaring, uninvolved god.

Frankly, I'm getting tired of this. Have a good life.

Editor

REPLY:

 Oh, I didn't realize you were agnostic. That's okay. Let me make one last suggestion if I may. Try reading "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel (1998, Harper Collins, Zondervan) a legal approach to proof, and perhaps also "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell (1979, Nelson) a more scientific and statistical approach.

Thank you for your well wishes. I wish you a nice life too.

Blessings, Grant

REPLY:

 And I would suggest that you read "The Age of Reason" by Thomas Paine and "The God Part of the Brain" by Matthew Alper.

But you won't do it and I have read enough apologies for the lack of proof for the existence of Jesus.......

Editor

REPLY:

Dier Editor!

I vas chust reading der letter from Grant Sponge! You know, der minister from der Vorldvide Church of Gott! I tink he makes a ferry gut point!


I vas also trown avay! I vas a member of der SS during der great Vorld Var Two, und I suffered many hardships during dat time. Ve vere totally misunderstood! Ve vere only following ordersss! Ve tried to do our duty to Gott and der vorld! Und now dere are vebstites all over der vorld dat condemn us for our faithful dedication!


But you are not my judge! You haf no right to accuse me or criticize me for der tings dat I did! I haf already apologized to many of der Juice dat I shot und gassed und hanged! I haf apologized to dem on my knees at nacht, und I know many udder SS men who haf done der same ting! But haf any of der Juice ever apologized to us? NEIN!!!


I am still vaiting for der Juice to apologize to ME!!! After all, I tought I vas doing der right ting! I vas a fictim chust like dem! Vat right do any of you haf to judge me? You do not know mein heart! You do not know dat I vonce told a bad joke about der Furer!!! I haf suffered many tings from der Juice, but I haf forgiven dem, even though most of dem are dead.

Heil Hitler!


OberSturmGruppenFurer#$%&*&%&$$%$%^%$^ John B

Forwarded to Grant Spong.

REPLY:

From: gspong
To: Email
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 4:57 AM
Subject: Re: A reader of the PT hit the nail on the head. Better duck!

 Your comparison is unfair and biased. You act as if you have never committed any evil in your life, yet that cannot be true.

However, let's look at your atrocity analogy, even though I disagree with its exaggerated implications. But, let's not just pick on the Germans as if they are the only ones who ever committed an atrocity. This is a typical ploy -the other guys were the bad guys, not us. Why did America bomb German towns -many contained only women and children? That was a war crime in my book. Why do the once victims of the holocaust now commit so many atrocities against someone else? And, the Palestinians also commit atrocities. Why do Americans criticize Germany or Indonesia or Cambodia and yet avoid the shame of their own history? Do you criticize my past, but avoid the shame of your own? Europeans who invaded North and South America have committed perhaps the greatest atrocity of history in destroying 90-98% of American Indians. What justification can you muster for north Americans participating in the kidnapping and enslavement of Irish, Ukranian and eventually African people? What justification can you muster for the persecution of Chinese and Spanish minorities, or the murder of unborn children?

Let's carry your analogy further. The Japanese were wrong in bombing Pearl Harbor, but were we then right in dropping atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? No, it too was a war crime of the greatest magnitude and against civilian populations. The justification is often: "you committed the first act, so we are right in committing a similar one." Is that your justification now in bombing other people with defamation and slander? No, you are not justified. They were wrong, and now you are wrong, but in Jesus you can be made right.

Your can be free of your painful past. God loves you. He is not an absentee God. He helped you win the greatest race of your life against millions of other sperm cells. You won, and your gift was a life. Since then he was with you creating a body that now incorporates billions of copies of the original single cell. He gives your heart every beat, and despite the pain you experienced in a stupid cult, he knows you really wanted to please him. Like a son who brought his loving father a gift he didn't ask for nor need, God respects your past efforts even though much of it was unnecessary. God didn't ask for a Sabbath, but you gave him one to show him your love. How you are in pain. God knows your pain, and how it expresses itself in anger and bitterness, but he still loves you and gives you trees to look at and a heart that beats. My friend, he does exist, not as a loud radio preacher, but as a still and soft voice waiting for you to listen.

Blessings, Grant

REPLY:

 Well now Grant, I'm sure John will respond and you will have made a new friend but...............

You seem to be saying that, since other people have done bad things, it excuses all the things that you inflicted on your fellow cult members. Not so. There are degrees of responsibility. John was simply pointing out the ridiculousness of your position. What you ministers did to people far exceeds what any of us EVER did, if you want to make comparisons. The really amazing thing is to see your denial and the turning around and pointing at the very people you and your cronies were responsible for virtually destroying their lives and putting the blame back on them because they haven't apologized to you. Incredible.

It is interesting that you continue to make the comparisons to war crimes to justify your own crimes against humanity. I justify NONE of them and put YOU and your CRONIES in the same pot with them and you can all boil together. If only there were a Hell so there would be some type of punishment for all you and your kind have done. But don't worry, Jesus will forgive you and you can live forever with Him while those you have damaged will rot in Hell for our lack of blind forgiveness.

Your mindless spouting of the "God loves you" crap shows just how little touch you have with reality. Go to the Acts of God page and show me god's love for these millions of people some of whom you even reference. Then I will believe in a caring god. I don't say that there is no god. I say that, if there is a god, he is an eight year old god and we are his science project. He cares no more for us than does a little kid pulling the wings off of flies.

Before you spout off your mindless memorized mouthings about how God cares so much for all of us poor fools writhing in endless bitterness, perhaps you would like to offer some PROOF to back up your statements. Hmmmmmmmm???????? Well, I guess I will not hold my breath for that since we both know that the only proof that you have is your blind faith. And that faith and $1.50 will buy you a cup of coffee.

Yeah, we won the sperm race and now we are winning the race away from you and your brothers in crime as you wallow in your self pity and self righteousness and lack of true repentance. You wouldn't know what humbleness or repentance were if they hit you over the head.

Editor

 REPLY:

I am not a murderer John.  Don't put me in that category.

You compare me to a murderous Nazi because I joined a cult like you did. We were both fools not murderers. Should I now compare you to those same Nazis or others who murdered Christians because you now fight against Christianity? The comparisons are ludicrous. Your analogy is stupid, illogical and ridiculous.


Blessings, Grant.

 REPLY:

I am not John and I do not call you a murderer but what you and your cronies did was and is in the spirit of murder. Deaths, many deaths, occurred because of this system that you were a leader in. People committed suicide because of your or your administration's decisions and teachings. You are responsible.

Lives were changed negatively because of what you and your cronies did. You ruined lives. You changed lives, irretrievably. You did, in effect "murder" all those that would have been born if you had not intervened with your negative input into people's lives. You don't seem to understand the immensity of what you are responsible for.

As I have said before, it is a wonder that more of you guys are not committing suicide but it is probably more a credit for the selection process for you "ministers" that weeded out all those that might have a conscience.

Editor

  REPLY:

 How many lives are being ruined by what you are doing? How many want to commit suicide because of what you have done? Certainly you are right, my ministry was in many ways worthless, but I know of none who committed suicide by what I personally did. It is illogical to lump us all together simply because the theology was not orthodox. Rather, my ministry saved several from suicide.

As far as orthodoxy and heresy are concerned, I believe heresy is just a minority opinion. The problem I have with Christianity is not God or Jesus, but human abuses which are rife throughout. The disagreement I have with you is not that Christianity has so little grace, but that outside of Christianity there is no grace at all.

You are being dishonest. You don't just lable Armstrongism as cult-like but all Christianity. I don't accept your argument that on the one hand Armstrongism caused people problems, but the rest of Christianity did not. Rather Christianity period, has a lot to answer for over two thousand years of wrongful persecutions and corruption. You say Christianity is wrong; I say it is wrong, but for different reasons. You say it is fundamentally wrong as a concept; I say the concept is right but Christians are wrong.

Grant

  REPLY:

 And to think that those such as yourself were given the responsibility to counsel troubled members and potential members.........

I hope that I have ruined many lives of the "ministry" by making them get off the gravy train and go out and get honest jobs. If anyone committed suicide because they read The Painful Truth, they did it because they found out the truth about the Worldwide Church of God and its corrupt, dysfunctional ministry. If any have done that, it is regrettable, but I think the blame lies with those who misled not those who tell the truth. I would rather think that many more have found truth and freedom preferable to lies and slavery.

Just because you do not accept my point that ALL Christianity is a cult does not make me dishonest. I also never said that the rest of Christianity did not do horrible things. I have said that that fact does not give YOU an excuse to do the same things. You know what? I don't think you can read very well.

Now, as I said before, I have grown tired of corresponding with you since I can't seem to penetrate your mindless defenses, religiously built up over the years and blindly vomited out at any who disagree with you. I will no longer be responding to any further email from you.

You may respond to John B. if you wish, if and when he decides to answer you.

I also note that you are no longer "blessing" me. THANKS. I've received enough blessings from your kind to last me a lifetime.

Editor

  REPLY from John B.:

 UnterSturmFuerer Sponge,

Please pay attention! You do not listen very well.

You claim you preached against Herbert Armstrong; perhaps, but you certainly learned his tactics very well. His finest ploy when brainwashing people was to address a subject, then divert attention to something else so that the matter at hand is overlooked. You did that to me. Notice:

You wrote:

let's not just pick on the Germans as if they are the only ones who ever committed an atrocity. This is a typical ploy -the other guys were the bad guys, not us.

Now what the hell does this have to do with anything I said? Huh? Although I find your anti-American bias to be revealing, your paragraph about U.S. atrocities, aside from being laughable, is totally irrelevant. After your tirade, you finished with:

Is that your justification now in bombing other people with defamation and slander? No, you are not justified. They were wrong, and now you are wrong, but in Jesus you can be made right.

I didn't defame you! I took your side! As one Nazi to another, I completely understand how you feel! (Okay, I was making a point, and a good one. The point is, as you know very well, that any remorse you claim to feel is worthless unless you do something about it. "I'm sorry" is not too much to ask, if you do nothing else. The question is, Are you man enough to say it?)

You wrote:

despite the pain you experienced in a stupid cult,

Ah, so you admit that it is a cult. How wonderful. You were a part of that cult, too. You still would be, apparently, except they "threw you away". Your refusal to admit any culpability tells me that you see nothing wrong with your actions. Only following orders, right?

You wrote:

God didn't ask for a Sabbath, but you gave him one to show him your love.

Wrong. A flamethrower was placed at my head and I was forced to keep the Sabbath. That flamethrower, they said, was loaded with fire and brimstone, and it would bring death for all eternity. I really had no choice. But I'm sure you never gave a sermon about a "commanded assembly", did you?

You wrote:

How you are in pain.

Let me think-No. My pain ended the day I led my family toward the barbed wire, ducked under the searchlights, and crawled three hundred yards to safety. That was nine years ago, and I have been without pain ever since. Lots of fear, followed by rage, but those have faded, too. You see, UnterSturmFuerer, time does heal [not all, but many] wounds. As much as you would like to believe I am one of those "most miserable people on the face of the earth", it just ain't true. A lot of others are still suffering, but I am not.

You wrote:

God knows your pain,

So does Bill Clinton. He feels it. But he still stole half my paycheck in taxes and he will continue to live off my taxes for the rest of his natural life. Just as Worldwide ministers sponge off members' tithe money while they grant them crumbs of forgiveness.

And, finally, this:

Blessings, Grant.

Same to you, pal.

Actually, you really are in a tough spot, aren't you? Thrown out of the cult, lost your paycheck. You are accustomed to speaking with authority and none dare contradict you. But now you've lost that, too. Your biblical knowledge and speaking ability are worthless now. You have been removed from the guard tower, your guns are empty, your penis is misfiring, and you are facing the survivors -naked. Not a pretty place to be. You are the one who is hurting, my friend. You are in a lot of pain, and the only weapons you know how to use have been rendered useless.

So what do you do now? Lash out like a cat whose tail is caught in the fan belt? Claw and spit and curse and foam at the mouth as those hollow-eyed survivors who rightfully confront you with your past slowly close the circle around you? Or do you, perhaps for the first time in your life, take a personal inventory, examine yourself, and try to come to grips with the painful truth?

Look, Grant, I don't hate you. I'm not even mad at you. I didn't seek you out. You came to us, remember? But since you brought it up, I spent forty years of my life under Armstrong's terrorist regime. That's four decades, Grant. Forty years in captivity, from age four to age forty-four. I never joined of my own volition. My mother raised me in the cult and I thought Mom was the smartest person in the world. She told me she had proved it, and she was a whole lot smarter than I was. So I believed it, too. Imagine my horror when I found out the whole thing had been a waste of time. Imagine my anger when I realized I had wasted over half my life. Imagine my regret when I thought of the tens of thousands of dollars I had wasted, leaving my children without many of the things that would have made their lives better. And imagine, if you are able, how I feel when you, a card-carrying member of the totalitarian regime that did all that do me, sit back and tell me to forgive, that it doesn't matter, that Jesus will fix everything.

You, personally, have never harmed me. I never even heard of you. But you were part of the system. You didn't do it to me, but you did it to others. I imagine there are several hundred people to whom you owe apologies. On your knees, Grant, with tears in your eyes. If you are a real man, you will seek them out and beg their forgiveness. "Go and sin no more", remember? And make restitution, even if only verbally.

You told the Editor that he is not your judge. That's debatable, but I seem to recall something in the Bible that said every man would be judged according to his works. So I don't judge you, but your works speak volumes (and so does your attitude).

One last thing, Grant: your little rant about Allied atrocities against the Germans and Japanese was very interesting, but just remember this -those acts were committed by people who were trying to free the world, not enslave it. Be careful with those analogies, or they may reveal more about your character than you would have anyone know.

Sieg Heil.

John B

3/18/01

  REPLY from Grant Spong

From: <gspong@juno.com

 John, You learned HWA's tactics better than I, you ass. Look at yourself. Wasting your life attacking something you supposedly left. You're not doing anything effective. If you left it, you left it, but you haven't. You're still wallowing in self-pity and vengeance. Get on with your life man.

 Further mail blocked...

  REPLY

Grant,

Well, you certainly know how to hurt a guy. I'm crushed.

Even though you have blocked further communication, I will take the time from my wallowing and suffering and attacking to respond to your eloquent and Christlike communication.

Yes, I did learn HWA's tactics quite well. I was a victim of them for forty years. I imagine that many Jews in the death camps also learned Hitler's tactics very well, if they lived long enough. But that didn't make them the bad guys, did it? They were not the ones with the power over their enemies. And neither was I.

But you were.

I've never met you, Grant, and I don't know the first thing about you, your habits, your personality. But from your emails I can deduce quite a lot. First of all, you are walking under a tremendous load of guilt. It's eating you alive from the inside out, but you are so deep in denial that you refuse to admit that guilt is what you really feel.

Second, you feel terribly helpless and alone. You contacted the Painful Truth to get your name removed from the Hall of Shame. (I remind you once again, Grant, you contact us, not the other way around.) But you are not willing to face up to your past and offer a simple apology. Rather, you want us to apologize to you! How patently fucking absurd!

Third, (and this opinion is based solely on your letters), you appear to be a bully. For however many years you were in the ministry you were DA MAN! No one could touch you. No one could argue with you. No one could disagree with you. No one could disobey you. You had the ultimate power, and anyone who disobeyed you was put to "death". You are used to winning, aren't you? You have no concept of give and take, of playing fair. You simply do not play well with others. And now you waltz into our living room and expect to start spitting orders that we will follow to the letter.

You really hate the Nazi analogy, don't you? Maybe that's because it is such a perfect fit. Nothing illuminates Worldwide tactics better than a close look at Nazi Germany. And why not? Armstrong admired Hitler. Hoeh was reportedly a Nazi sympathizer. And the ministry was trained in blind obedience, exactly like the SS was. Authoritarian, totalitarian despotism from the top down, pyramid style, with the people underneath all that crushing weight. You were part of the pyramid, Grant. In your heart, I believe you still are.

And just like the defeated Nazis, you blame others. "It vasn't my fault! I had to kill all dose Juice! I didn't hate dem, but I had to do it!"

You know what, Grant? Any murdering, raping, pillaging asshole can oppress other people, but it takes a real man to apologize.

You know what else? It doesn't hurt. It doesn't cost anything. It doesn't even take very long. How much breath does it take to say "I'm sorry"? And after you do, it feels really good!

Bad people never apologize. Guilty people never apologize. Satan never apologizes.

And apparently, neither will you.

John B

First I would like to say I don't agree with everything you say, but that is what makes us all different.  I started attending "The Church" at about age 8, so I had no choice.  It is very difficult when the brainwashing begins as a child, even though I was bull headed and left it and my home at age 19.  For years after leaving I thought I would burn in hell.  Now at age 54 I still have problems with any church and do not attend any.  Somehow I still believe the religion I was taught was right, although I know the way it was done is wrong.

 My father was a very talented man, but could not get a good job because he would not work on Saturday.   We had no friends unless they were church friends, and there was no church in our town.  We were not allowed to date unless they were church boys, and there were only three young men for about ten girls in the area.  All my clothes came from second hand stores.  When the whole Jim Jones thing happened, I thought how it could have very well been WWCOG.

I am very happy now, no thanks to all of them, or maybe I appreciate my life more because of it all.  I am an optimist all the way!

I would like to see all that money go to a good cause too, but we know "it ain't gonna happen" so I just try to get on with my life.

Thank you for letting me speak me feelings.  It is good to talk to other people with the same feelings.

Jan

Your article on alcoholism said: "After a while, the alcoholic is hooked, and it's NOT just some simple case of "Just say no" (Sorry Nancy R, you're wrong), or "Anyone can stop," and it's NOT some case of some self-righteous, "I can, you can . . . repent" type of thing."

Dear Sirs or?, I think we all know or should know that there are as many exceptions as there are individuals but to say Nancy R is/was wrong in her "just say no" campaign is pure ignorance. It obviously doesn't work for people who are already addicted, and they deserve all of our help and compassion, but it was/is the most effective anti drug/alcoholism slogan that anyone ever uttered. All the billions of dollars spent on all other programs have not accomplished as much nor prevented as much pain and suffering as Nancy's simple words.

Regards, Lee

 I perused your material in this web page and had to offer my own input since twenty years of attending services should give me license to do so.

At first I was shocked and horrified, but then I started to chuckle. Why should I be, I wondered? Propaganda is always sent out as facts.

I grew up in the WWCG and granted there were jackasses and losers among both the people and the commonwealth if you will, but this is true in any organization known to man, including the Confederate States of America which is often portrayed as nigger hatin southerners, while that was not the mentality of every southerner out there.

I witnessed some things going on and heard some whispers in the dark also, but once again, where human beings work, there will be corruption. Again in the case of the Civil War, not all the Yankees were heroes either, some were bastards.

But one the flip side of the coin, Herbert W Armstrong taught from the bible as he felt inspired and it was his teaching which led me and others like me to work hard to be honest people, to follow almighty God and to obey his laws and commandments. I was from a poor family, but I felt good about sending in my tithes and offerings because I knew what was being done with them, and my mother lived off of church help for seven years.

Often times it is not easy to do the right thing, as in the cases of police, military, and others who make the ultimate sacrifice in service to the right. My ministers never told me to deprive my family to contribute but to care for them above all and first. They did not inspect our home, but offered counseling when needed and were always there for us. I myself avoided what were referred to as "pagan" holidays such as Christmas and Easter because I would no more use Santa Clause (my my, is he not a lie in the first place? Hmm, thou shalt not lie) to honor Jesus Christ who GAVE rather than received than I would change the oil in my truck on my wife's birthday in honor of her.

Herbert Armstrong made his errors and mistakes, but I left the church when the greedy and deceitful charlatans and politicians by the names of Tkatch took over and began changing things to prettify and sugar coat things to make the church more popular for other denominations.

My ministers did not teach us to alienate others unless they took us away from the bible teachings, and Herbert Armstrong told us not to take his word for anything but to prove it to ourselves. I heard these words from him myself. I saw the glory of the campuses and colleges that were meant to educate new ministers and their wives, and the smiles and glows of warmth on the faces of the students with which no other college I have ever seen can compare.

I believe wholeheartedly that God well led and guided his servant in his work on earth, even if some of HWA's dealings were not without flaws. Our politicians who run the entire country would do well to have half of his sincerity.

For twenty years I attended, and if Herbert Armstrong was alive still I am sure my family would attend still. Unfortunately the liars, wolves and scoundrels have invaded and conquered, but Almighty God sees all, knows all, and will deal with it in his time.

~GM

   REPLY

 YOU WROTE:

Almighty God sees all, knows all, and will deal with it in his time.

REPLY:

I hope you are right because Herbie and his gang of thieves have a lot of 'splaining to do. They are ALL liars, wolves and scoundrels.

My offer is plain:

Prove anything is wrong on The PT site and I will change it. It has been here since 1997 and NOBODY has even attempted to do that.

Believe what you want. I really don't care.

Editor

REPLY

good for you. 
REPLY

 Thank you. Now, go play somewhere else.

Editor

REPLY

 I will play where I want. If you want to pedal hate and poison and stupidity and dont want people to respond to your ignorance, don't put an e mail. Just put up a sign saying "I am incredibly stupid 'and sign it. We will believe.

 REPLY

Sorry. Don't have time for you.

If you had any proof that anything on the PT site was wrong, you have lost your chance to prove it. Any further messages from you will be blocked.

Editor

 I have read your last posting on 3/8/01 --and then I went to a link on that page that had something to do with unanswered prayer........ Well, that hit home with me. On that page you had all the catastrophes, that have happened through out time ---I have also studied them and they are true.

In the bible --it states God answers everyone's prayers, ask and you shall receive well, I prayed many times --sometimes things would happen other times never an answer -I don't consider myself a bad person. Why would God ignore me? I think all our intent and purpose for everyone that ever became affiliated with WWCG was to find the truth..... and we never did. What a deception. The most funniest thing I heard In WWCG by quite a few ---if I got sick I was not right with God. ( what a statement to say to someone that does not know me that well) Well well, during that time I was the best I could ever be!!! I honestly tried to live a right life. A lot of my prayers were not answered, I wondered why?

 The God of the Bible -was not here to help me.--------A God of the Bible so loving so forgiving -----gave me problems upon problems. I often wondered why if you live a good life you have to suffer. That would to me be the opposite of what I would think! You have people that know God and go out and commit every sin there is and they live a great life!! Why is this?

 My conclusion to this -is the Bible is wrong and so are all these churches Your statement made that you sent to us that they would all fall like a deck of cards!! Makes sense to me -you know why --I studied more into these religions and I find them falling -splitting one after the other. And one thing a lot of these people reading the Bible, a bible the KJV written in 1611 --and all these others!!! Its not logical. If there is a Bible it is hidden from us -that I believe.

 I still believe in a God of the higher power but not as we were taught!

 I find more truth and understanding here ---You make sense!

 Please keep anonymous

Thanks, Judy

Editor,

I was just rereading your FAQ web page, and came across question # 22 that asks "Doesn't the Bible say that it is the Word of God?" Your answer starts out "I guess so...". I just checked an online concordance of the King James version of the bible looking for the phrase "word of God" and found something very interesting. The Bible nowhere says that the written manuscripts which we today call the Bible are the "word of God" OR THAT ANYTHING THAT HAS EVER BEEN WRITTEN DOWN IS THE WORD OF GOD. The phrase is almost always used in reference to something which is spoken by someone else which transmits information about God to the mind of the listener, as in preaching, teaching, asking a blessing on food about to be eaten, etc. Revelation 19 says that "the Word of God" is the same as the being on horseback described in many other verses in that chapter. It nowhere obviously identifies this being as Christ. It says that the mounted rider is King of Kings, Lord of Lords, rules the earth with a rod of iron, and makes war righteously and justly. Up until that last clue was given, it could just as well be Satan the Devil who is shown elsewhere in the Bible as being the ruler of the earth, but I believe Satan makes war unrighteously and unjustly. The first chapter of John says that the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, so it looks as if the Word refers to Jesus, but even this first chapter of John does not use the phrase "the word of God".

I have given many, many serrmonettes on reading the Bible because it was "the word of God". Now I must say there is not even any internal claim to that effect.

Bill Fairchild

 I wonder if anyone else heard this during a taped holy day message from HWA. It involved the recurring theme of women and make-up. HWA read a letter that a woman had written him concerning the use of make-up, she was in favor of its use and thought that maybe HWA would like a woman's opinion. When he finished her letter he stated that "when he wanted a woman's opinion, he would give it to her". At the time I remember being shocked but I felt that in time God would give me the understanding I needed so I didn't worry about it. Years later I asked a friend of mine if she remembered hearing this in the sermon and she said she couldn't imagine HWA saying anything like that. 

We weren't allowed to conduct meetings of our women's club unless there was a minister present. I felt that we were being treated like irresponsible children and when I questioned this policy I was told it was because women are too prone to gossip and possible misconduct and the minister was there to protect us,...basically from ourselves. In retrospect we were being treated like irresponsible children.

When I left the church I was in the midst of much personal trauma, the last time I went to church, I didn't make it more than two miles before I had to pull the car over. I was crying to hard to see where I was going. I turned around and went home. No minister called to see if I was okay, none of my friends called, it was if I had never existed to them. The reason, I feel was simple enough. I was classified as a "spiritual widow", and there was no place for a woman in the church without a man. You can't understand what alone is until you're a married woman in the WCG with an unconverted mate.

Marsha

Herbert W. Armstrong Changed My Life Forever.

This is the title of one of your web pages. One more point you could add is that there are many Germans, Soviets, and Chinese who could have said the same thing of Hilter, Stalin, or Mao. There were some genuinely good things that these crackpots did for some of their people. They had building programs, they galvanized their nations, they gave people hope, blah blah. And then they started murdering their own people by the millions. But I'm sure there were many people who died before these leaders turned insane, and as far as those people are concerned the only things they knew of these monsters were that they did plenty of good for their nations.

Bill Fairchild

----- Original Message -----
From: Jim & Donna Mackey
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 12:08 AM


t n god

 REPLY

A puzzle?
Let's see:
There's No God?
Thanks for Nothing, God
Trust no god.

Editor

 Hi,

 I have just spent half of the day reading a lot of your messages on your site. I must say that I greatly appreciate what you are trying to do for this world. I just typed in The truth about God on the "keyword" and I got your site. Well, all I can say is that you think about what I have been thinking about for a number of years now. I have never been nor will ever be a member of the WWCG. In fact I don't even know that much about them but I do know about other churches and religions that sound just like them. I grew up in a Holiness Church and have investigated other religions also. I was baptized as a Mormon member in 1995. But today I'm happy to say that I'm not a member of any cult, religion, etc. and my life is more at peace. I have less problems than my family members who are Christians or so-called Christians. Like yourself, I have read the archeology of the bible and I also don't believe in it's so-called divine translations. (Especially since the man who had it translated to the KJV was King James himself and who was gay which is against it's own teachings. Plus King James's mother was Queen Elizabeth who had her own cousin, Mary Tudor, Queen of Scots, beheaded in order to gain the crown.) I don't see their credentials as being good enough to translate anything? The bible speaks against Homosexuality and Murder! I have watched my own mother go through church after church in the Pentecostal and Apostolic faiths. I have also seen one pastor who was a homosexual and was raping a boy that he adopted right there in Tulsa, Oklahoma. I also watched as another was sexually abusing the young girls of my mother's last church but when we tried to tell her that her pastor wasn't a true man of God then she wouldn't except it until he went to jail. this was in Durant, Oklahoma. Than there was another pastor in Warner, Oklahoma that was stealing money from the members of the church to build another church that was never built. This one was kicked out of 5 different states because of his lies. Not once could my mother believe the truth until it all came out in the wash. We tried to tell her for years but she never wanted to believe it. It's like she gets so wrapped up in religion and can't see the truth because she needs so desperately to believe in something. We could see the truth but the members were blind to the facts until it was made public. But they just told us that we were wrong because we were not Christians. I used to get so angry when my mother would get so upset because she had bought some steaks for her pastors dinner and she forgot them at the store. She didn't even have food in her own house to eat and was on a fixed income. I have always wondered what got needed with money (Tithing) ? The pastor had a nice new car and truck and Home Interior Decorations and a Baby Grand Piano in his home while he taught my mother that she couldn't even have a television because it was worldly? Talk about worldly things? I could find better use for $150.00's than to spend it on a small flower arrangement? I guess that my version of being a Christian and the churches version are two different things. I will not go to any church now and I am not condemning anyone that does but I firmly believe that no man has the right to judge another as to whether or not he is going to heaven or hell. unless the bible tells a lie? Anyway I could go on forever but I don't want to take up all of your time so if you publish this fine and if not that's okay also. I do have one thing to say about some of the other opinions; I do believe that this is a site on truth not condemnation of others. So why are some of you making fun of the editor of this site? It is just his opinion and you can either accept his theories or not but there was not reason to criticize him for his beliefs? I don't thing that he is telling any lies on the WWCG but instead telling the truth as to what he saw and his own personal experiences. He would have no reason to lie about it as he knows that if it wasn't true then he could be sued for "Defamation of Character", and he's not stupid enough to publish something on the internet without the proof to back up his own actions?.....

But Bless you anyway and I love your site............

Vivian

  REPLY

Vivian,

Cults and major religions have a lot in common. Good to hear that you are no longer under their influence.

Get the book, "The God Part of the Brain," it explains a lot.

Be very careful with your "time to die". If you only get one life, wouldn't you want it to be as long as possible, with good health?

If, as seems to be the case, there is no god controlling our lives, then there is no god protecting our lives or determining when it is our "time to die." In that case, we should be very conscious of life threatening situations. Time and chance may play a big part in when we die but the things we do and decisions we make have a lot to do with it too. Someone's "time to die" may come simply because they made a bad decision and not that any "god" has some kind of time clock going on their life.

Editor

Dear Editor,

I hope that responses to Grant aren't getting too old for you. Here one of about five from me:

Dear Grant - Former Minister of Fraud,

You wrote:
The justification is often: "you committed the first act, so we are right in committing a similar one." Is that your justification now in bombing other people with defamation and slander? No, you are not justified. They were wrong, and now you are wrong, but in Jesus you can be made right.

It again needs to be pointed out that defamation of character is to tell LIES about someone. If what is being said is TRUE, you are NOT defaming that person. You are simply sharing what may be useful information to other would-be suckers.

Think about it. There are laws regarding slander. Do you believe for a moment that the leadership of the various Armstrong cults would not take the editors of the Painful Truth and before that, the Ambassador Report to court to obtain an injunction to stop publication if they could prove that what is being written is actually lies?

Do you honestly believe those religious barracudas are "turning the other cheek" because they believe it is the Christian thing to do? Unlikely. More than likely, it is because there is no way in hell the church's of god want their filthy business laundry exposed to the light of day in court.

Think about it. They would have to prove in court that there have never been financial improprieties, hypocritical sexual misconduct; medical counseling that resulted in an unnecessary premature death, verbal abuse from the pulpit that resulted in suicide, and on and on it would go. There would be so many people lined up as witnesses willing to testify against them it would be a media circus!

If anything that has been written in the Painful Truth that you believe to be slander, the challenge for you is to PROVE IT!

You said "and now you are wrong" for openly discussing the pain and suffering inflicted upon the laity by the church that you were a minister of and accepted healthy paychecks from for many years. Why are we wrong for openly discussing our sorrows? Does it make you feel uncomfortable? If so, why? Is it because what is being said is a lie, or what is being said is the TRUTH? Are you uncomfortable because of the misery you caused as a minister, or that people talking about the acts of Armstrong's ministers makes you feel bad about yourself? Since the tone of your correspondence does not suggest much compassion on your part for the injured, one might easily suspect the latter.

Now, what are we supposed to do? Get Jesus, and then get lost? Like it or not, people will stop talking about it when they are ready to stop talking about it. You, and your kind will never force us to navigate the river "denial" again! And Grant, most of us are not looking for justification; we are just looking to ease the pain.

Sincerely,
Dana

 

 

 

 

 

 

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