The Painful Truth About The Worldwide Church of God

Email To The Editor
(Page 55)
(Mail from Kooks, Nuts and Loonies is on another page)

8/14/01

Editor,

 Your response to "Glory" was pure logic. I do hope she reads it and thinks about what you said.

 Gregory

 Hello,

I just wanted to do two things:

1. I want to tell you that I find your web site thought-provoking and I intend to continue reading it thoroughly. Thanks for the time you have put into it. While I don't agree with every point you make, you have really helped me in my own desire to clarify my personal beliefs -and that's a worthy accomplishment in itself. And I do agree with many, many of the questions you raise.

It helps me on my own spiritual journey to find that others have the same doubting Thomas spirit and the desire to really explore and know their beliefs rather than simply absorb society's predigested religious beliefs. I intend to OWN my beliefs and am actively working toward that by seeking some clarity in what I believe. In the past, among friends, I've articulated some of my own troubled thoughts and doubts about mainstream Christianity and how it does not fit my needs or beliefs, and like you I have found that I do believe in God although not necessarily in mankind's comfortable mental "limits" on the notion of Deity. It astonishes me to this day that some people do not question the walls they have built around their spiritual life. So, thank you for talking about your own experiences and thoughts. This kind of discussion opens doors for everyone.

2 I have a resource I want to pass along to you. I've been doing some online research for an essay I'm considering writing on a certain hot news topic (unrelated to your site), and I stumbled across a thoughtful religion-related web site that may be of interest to you. Perhaps you already know of it, but anyway, here is one particular page that you may find useful. It discusses Bible passages that would be considered immoral by today's standards -FYI. The web site also has a useful, intelligent, and fairly neutral discussion of stem cell research, abortion (including a very interesting comparison of hair cell follicles to human embryos -I'm still trying to wrap my mind around that one), etc., among other topics.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/imm_bibl.htm 

By the way, I did read your disclaimer before sending you this e-mail. It's fine with me if you choose to publish this letter and my name with it -just as it's also fine with me if you read, smile and discard this letter. I just wanted to let you know that I think your efforts can only enrich and enlarge the community of people on active spiritual quests.

Best wishes,

Carolyn

REPLY:

Carolyn,

Thanks for your message. Good to hear that you get some benefit from my site. I agree with you: I don't agree with everything on the site. My understanding and view of the world changes daily and therefore my interpretation of "spiritual truth" changes too.

Keep reading; we probably agree much more than we disagree. At least we are thinking and "religious" people don't do that.

Editor

Dear Editor,

I do not have anything to prove or disprove from your site contents. I am more curious about what the basis of your facts are concerning what the doctrine of God is.

I attend a non-denominational church that has some past members of your favorite church in it. I understand from some of them, that there were pitfalls in Armstrong's church and you may have pointed some of them out.

What I also wonder, concerns the Bible. If it is not God's Word to us, where do you turn to for facts? I know as a former Catholic that it can not be by any of the false teachings of that institution or its daughter churches, because the cataloged history of its deception are in written records of many nations.

I would appreciate it if you could put answers to these two questions into words. This may open up proofs for your discovery. You see, I have had it tough and I want to know the truth also.

 Sincerely, B. Sr.

REPLY:

 YOU WROTE:

I am more curious about what the basis of your facts are concerning what the doctrine of God is.

REPLY:

Well, I would be just as interested in the basis of YOUR "facts" concerning the "doctrine of god."

If you are a Christian, you base you beliefs on a book that cannot be proven to have any godly authority but, in fact, can be proven to contain an incredible amount of errors and contradictions and down right evil things being attributed to a supposed god. Christians base their beliefs on faith. They have faith that their book is a godly book. "Faith" meaning that they have no proof at all and just have to have "faith." They also have faith that so many people couldn't all be wrong.

I base my beliefs on things that can be proven and on reason. Would any "god" want you to believe anything, just because so many other people believe it? Would god be mad at you if you used your brain to try to find out what he expected of you? If your brain tells you that you need a proof before you will follow any religion, will god be offended? Are you just supposed to accept what everyone else believes or be condemned to hell?

YOU WROTE:

What I also wonder, concerns the Bible. If it is not God's Word to us, where do you turn to for facts?

REPLY:

A fact is something that is true and accurate, something that can be demonstrated as reality. If you found any other book where you would find inaccuracies and errors, would you trust it implicitly or would you be skeptical of any other "facts" in the book? Why don't we hold the bible to the same standard? Why, when errors and inaccuracies are found, do people make excuses for the book and decide that they will overlook these things? I think it is because people worship the bible. It is their god.

I think what you really mean is "If it is not God's word, where do we turn to for religion?"

My first step would be, if it is not god's word, if god has not made some other "word" obvious to us, maybe he is not trying to communicate with us. Can you really look around this world and see "god" actively doing anything? If you see anything good or bad happening, it is usually people doing it to one another or it is a natural scientific event such as stress building up in the crust of the earth resulting in earthquakes that break things and kill people. Or tornados being the result of hot and cold air colliding and destroying and killing. Any rationalization to try to "prove" that any god had anything to do with these things is delusionary.

When you can't show that this "god" is doing anything either good or bad, you have to question whether or not there is any god that is involving itself with the human race. There is no evidence of any god doing anything for us. There are coincidences. There are certainly things that cannot be explained, synchronicities, where we seem to be connected with other people in some strange way. I would recommend "The Holographic Universe" by Michael Talbot that deals with synchronicities. It is very interesting. These things do not explain a godly intervention though.

I have toyed with the idea of offering a reward for the proof that the bible is god's word, or that there is a god that cares about us. I know that I would never have to pay the money out but I don't want to have to deal with the idiotic email that I would get from just plain stupid people quoting the bible to me to prove that it is god's word. It can't be done. Period. If you believe the bible is god's word, you have to do it because, well, you just do. There is no proof. Religion doesn't require proof; it requires believers. I and other truth seekers require proof therefore we have nothing to do with religion.

YOU WROTE:

I have had it tough

REPLY:

Things get much better once you free your mind from the slavery of religion. Much, much better.

You will find that "god" doesn't get you. God doesn't punish you. No "blessings" are withheld. You don't fare any worse than any other person that faces time and chance, life and death, health and sickness, etc. The religious people have a false sense of security, thinking that "god is working things out." It helps them deal with the injustices and evils in our lives. In fact, the evidence is that god isn't working anything out. We work it out or we cope with it or others work things out for us, sometimes for our good or our harm. We are on our own so take control of your mind and don't allow anyone else to tell you what god wants from you. They have less of a clue than anyone that is not high on the drug of religion. The more people that they get hooked on their drug, the more they can justify their beliefs to themselves. There is great comfort in a multitude of people believing a delusion.

Good luck in your quest for truth.

Editor

8/22/01

Hello There!

I just discovered you Web Page by accident. I found it very interesting! Charles Hunting is my first cousin. I remember very well when he left the WCG and the reasons why he did so. I have lost touch with him over the years. The last I heard he was in San Diego. I also believe his son, Chris, and daughter, Sydney, are still in the organization. Can you give me any information as to their whereabouts or what is happening with them.

I was so surprised to read his name in your articles of the letters written to him. I do wonder what he thought of them.

My cousin Charles left the church mainly because he came to realize the hypocrisy of the leaders extreme wealth and the people in general struggling to make do within their families. Also, his wife, Verle, had died of cancer which, it turned out would have been very curable with medical treatment. He was heartbroken at her death and came to realize he had lost her because of the false teachings of the wcg and Armstrong. There was a long article in many of the big newspapers at the time about his leaving and why. I have a copy of one of the articles.

Charles grew up in a family of Free Methodists. Three of our uncles were ministers. At the time he joined the wcg, he owned a very successful large equipment business in Long Beach, CA. It was a terrible shock to the whole family when he and his family left everything to go into this cult. His mother never got over it. However, she did live to be 101 years old and saw him leave the organization. However, like you, he really never was able to reconcile to any religion, having been so disillusioned. The last I knew he was managing his sister's estate in Chula Vista, CA. He is now quite elderly but longevity runs in the family. His son, Paul, also left the wcg and was in Los Angeles the last I knew.

Thanks you for responding and good luck with your "crusade".

Natalie ggmnat@netzero.net

 I, for one, am grateful for what you have published. I am appalled that more ministers have not come forward and apologized. I was 9 years old when my dad converted and I swallowed it all, hook, line and sinker. I praise the Lord that He brought me out of that organization and I weep for those still entrenched in it's ideas. I feel that a lot of ministers have a lot to answer for and I am truly befuddled at their lack of "sight" on this issue. They may feel that they have repented to God but I feel they still need to repent to all those that they misled and abused. Thanks for listening. God Speed.

Tanya Bryan

Mr. Meeks:

I read with interest you article titled "Fraud in the Name of God."

htt p://www.msnbc.com/news/610657.asp#BODY 

I think that religion is a scam from day one and I am not surprised that more criminals are taking advantage of gullible people; it is easy work. I would be interested in knowing exactly what makes these apparently illegitimate "scam artists" any different than the legitimate scam artist religion pusher? Do the legitimate ones have a diploma or something?

I would also be interested in where you got your statistics.

From the article: 

"Putting money in the offering plate isn't an act where you're expecting a tangible return on your money, Bortner said."

So, why does he think people are putting that money in the plate? The return may not be "tangible" but to the believer it is just as real.

The return is eternal life. The return is protection from harm or sickness. It is healing from sickness. It is relief from the fear of death. It is the comfort that you are doing what "god wants you to do." It is being right with god so he will answer your prayers. It is "knowing" that there is some kind of purpose for human life.

So, if they promise you all these things can't deliver, then they are legitimate. If they promise something that is tangible and don't deliver, they are illegitimate.................

Any chance of reprinting your article?

Editor:PT

Good site, even without all the references to the WCG. Because I was raised as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, I'm pretty sure that most of the articles could interchange church names and the gist would still apply. Same Shit, different religion. But I'm not an atheist either, I just think I have a much higher opinion of God than most religious people.

I especially liked the humor page, and the book references. I found I'd read about 25% of them and now I can work on the rest.

I accidentally found this site while searching some info on Charles Taze Russell, the founding father of Jehovah's Witnesses. As many of higher level religious have found to be FreeMasons, he is said to have been one and I'm looking for material on that. The pyramid on his grave is telling, but not exactly proof. Any books in particular come to mind???

Kathleen

8/26/01

congratulations, you have made the most nastiest website ever.
what are you trying to achieve?
Maurits

REPLY:

Maurits,

Thanks for your message.

YOU WROTE:

congratulations, you have made the most nastiest website ever.

REPLY:

Thanks but I really can't take the credit for it. You see, all I'm doing is publishing the TRUTH. If the Truth is nasty, its not my fault. My offer is open to anyone that wants: Prove anything is untrue on the PT site and I will change it or take it down. I have only had to change a couple of minor technicalities over the last 4 1/2 years.

Do you have a problem with Truth?

YOU WROTE:

what are you trying to achieve?

REPLY:

Read the FAQ.

Editor

 Hi from the isle of man,

Was interested in your site, have had my doubts about Herbert W. Armstrong some years ago but they shot themselves in the foot when they started asking me for money. However, I used to receive plain truth during the late 50s early 60s and they were very helpful in reinforcing my new beliefs. Later on they became weird and like other man-made religions they eventually fragmented. Have you read the history of church of god movement which was linked to your pages?

Barry

 REPLY:

Hi Barry,

Excuse my ignorance, but where is the Isle of Man? Good for you if you never got messed up by the WCG.

YOU WROTE:

have your read the history of church of god movement which was linked to your pages?

REPLY:

I'm not sure what website you are referring to. Lots of people link to my site that I have never heard of and may not necessarily agree with. Some other sites like the fact that I will print the whole truth on my site and they don't have to have that nastiness on their prim and proper sites.

What is the Url?

Regards,

Editor

Divinely inspired or not, the Bible, especially in  translation, revelas the prejudices of its writers.  It should not be considered inerrant, for only God is inerrant.  Bibleolatry is not sincere faith.  I think  there are many avenues to God other than the Bible.  Whether Jesus actually really lived or not has nothing whatsoever to do with the existence of God.  Even if everything about Jesus were shown to be purely mythic, still I could have faith in a loving God.  To me the Bible has got nothing to do with the real God.  If anything, I think that making the Bible fundamental  puts a big road block between the believer and God, for they can see of reality only that tiny portion permitted by Scripture. 

Blair

 REPLY:

Blair,

YOU WROTE:

still I could have faith in a loving God

REPLY:

Why? Where do you find any evidence of that "loving" God?

I can see plenty of evidence of a "creator god" or some vastly superior beings who may be using our Universe as an sociology experiment or possibly a "god" that is four years old in human equivalency and enjoys pulling the wings off of a fly but I see nothing to show me that "It" loves any of us.

Read my Acts of God page and explain a loving god to me.

At least people who delude themselves, thinking that the Bible is somehow from God, can find some verses in it which can give them a little misguided hope if they turn off their brains and have blind faith.

You, who do not accept the Bible as inspired, have only what you can see and observe as your source for your evidence. I have to wonder how deep a thinker you are if you can look around this world and see any evidence of any god that cares one good shit about any of us. Everything is random: life, death, birth, multiple diseases, famines, wars, pogroms, genocide, earthquakes, volcanoes, hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, fires, etc...... Time and chance rule this world, not any god.

I really would like to find this "loving" god of yours. Tell "It" that I have been looking for "It" and have a lot of uncomfortable questions for "It."

Editor

9/8/01

 Dear Editor, 

Sorry I didn't get back sooner.  I had a whole day of running a steam locomotive.  Sort of a hobby, you see.   Please forgive me if I am not on the ball,  but I  am covered with soot, oil and sweat, and in dire need of a beer.   But OK, let's get  down to it.  Why do I think God is loving?  OK, I understand reality as a sensitive matrix, sort of the body of God.  Now, why?  Well, because everything is interrelated and interconnected to everything else.  Reality is, well, like a big spider web:  You tweek it here and it moves,  down there. I think that every actual entity, or real thing, is part of the real internal constitution of everything else.  Love, then isn't some nicety; love is an absolute metaphysical necessity.  Because we are social, relational beings,because we are interdependent beings,  because we arise out of our relationships to others,  love is absolutely essential to our survival. In fact, it is a fundamental response:  If everything else, to some greater or lesser degree,  enters into me, then empathy, which is love at a minimum,  consitutes the basis of our existence.   For example,  if I kill someone, I am actually killing part of myself.  Why does, then, killing occur?  Because many people think falsely, that they are isolated, independent monads, wholly self-sufficient, who do not need others.   Now, of course, the problem of evil is something that can shipwreck any theologian, maybe even me.  So here goes; hope I make it:  Evil occurs because everything, and I mean everything, has freedom, some to a greater or lesser extent.  God gives them initial aims, a goal for what they should be,  but they can disobey,  come up with their  own aims, and sometimes, note I said sometimes,  rightfully so. God, I submit, makes his creatures make themselves. God lures, does not force it.  God is like a President, not an absolute dictator or lord.  OK, so why doesn't God just get rid of freedom, if it is, as I am saying, the real source of evil?  Well, he or she can't.    See, beauty is complexity--what God is really interested in.  Now, complexity means choices.  I mean, the more complex I am, the greater the choices I have.  Look, if you had a piano that only had one note, well, who could ever be mistaken in playing?  But if you want real beauty, then you have a piano with 88 keys, and, well, that means the possibility that some idiot could bang on them and really irritate the hell out of you.  So I firmly believe that evil is an occupational hazard for God, one that he or she accepts.  OK, why, then, do I assume God even cares?  Because God,  too, is a  sensitive, social, relational being.  God cannot be happy unless we are happy.  This means God has to be loving ....or die.  Well, I could go on and on, but i sense I am rambling away and possibly boring you, so I will stop.  If you wish to ask me more questions, feel free to do so.  I like the intensity with which you pose your position.  You are a far better writer than I. 

Blair

 REPLY:

Blair,

To make it short and sweet: all you say about God is a bunch of crap. God does this.. God can't do that. God is like this... God wants this.... Blah, blah, blah.

You have no proof of any of this. It is all your surmising and what you WANT to believe. It is your way of trying to explain the unexplainable and find some meaning in a very nasty world.

If it brings you some comfort, whatever..........

Editor

 REPLY:

Dear Editor, 

Hey, give me a break, will you!!!  I am doing the best I can.  Apparently my best isn't good enough for you. Well, then,  stop sitting and bitching, and show me a better way.   I like to think I can give some pretty tight arguments. What, exactly, is your repsonse to them?  Do you really understand them? I'd like to see you try and tear one apart.  You know maybe, just maybe, the problem is that you don't want to listen.  Hell, you are worse than the sour-faced saints and sob-sisters of the Christian religion.   Maybe the problem is that you WANT to believe in a very nasty world, over-exaggerate the bad and overlook the good.  Well, if it brings you comfort to be some  crabby, cranky cry-baby, be my guest. 

Blair

 REPLY:

 YOU WROTE:

Well, then, stop sitting and bitching, and show me a better way.

REPLY:

The better way is to deal with what you know. Don't be giving me: "God does this.. God can't do that. God is like this... God wants this....", show me where god tells you this. Or have him tell it to me. You are merely taking your own ideas and conclusions and telling me that "God 'does,' 'is,' 'wants.' That is no proof. Your ideas are no different than any other religion which have their own ideas about "god" but cannot back any of them up.

YOU WROTE:

I like to think I can give some pretty tight arguments.

REPLY:

These are not "arguments." These are your own private ideas and feelings. You cannot prove that any of them are truth. It is not up to me to prove any of your brain farts are wrong; it is your duty to prove them correct.

YOU WROTE:

Maybe the problem is that you WANT to believe in a very nasty world, over-exaggerate the bad and overlook the good.

REPLY:

Well, I'm sorry if I wake you up here. Just because you live in the greatest most prosperous country and time on Earth, does not mean that this world is not a miserable place for most people who have ever lived.

If we could shrink the earth's population to a village of precisely 100 people, with all the existing human ratios remaining the same, it would look something like the following:

6 people would possess 59% of the entire world's wealth and all 6 would be from the United States.

80 would live in substandard housing

70 would be unable to read

50 would suffer from malnutrition

1 would be near death; 1 would be near birth

1 (yes, only 1) would have a college education

1 would own a computer

I would like you to read my Acts of God page and tell me how you can believe in a god that cares about mankind.

YOU WROTE:

Hell, you are worse than the sour-faced saints and sob-sisters of the Christian religion.

REPLY:

You have traded in the myths of Christianity for your own myths.

YOU WROTE:

Maybe the problem is that you WANT to believe in a very nasty world, over-exaggerate the bad and overlook the good.

REPLY:

I certainly don't gloss over all the horrors of this world as you seem to do. If you don't think it is a nasty world it is because you are too caught up in your own little fairy tale world. The only good I see is what we do for one another; I see no god doing any good or even "being" good. If there is a god, it is completely uninvolved and we are all on our own.

YOU WROTE:

Well, if it brings you comfort to be some crabby, cranky cry-baby, be my guest. Blair

REPLY:

Well, if it brings you comfort to think that you have some kind of truth hidden from the rest of mankind, be my guest.

Editor

 REPLY:

 Dear Sob Sister,

well, I guess I just don't fill the bill for you. You say I am caught up ion a fairy tale world; well, it was not such a fairy tale, on my dissertation. You see, I base my material on what I did in graduate school. They approved of it, after a brutal three-hour oral, not to mention a 300-page dissertation. That's why I don't think you are on the ball intellectually. If you want to win my respect, then tear my arguments apart and then give me a chance to respond. All you do is dwell on what is negative about the world. I think you are lopsided. Your come-backs aren't any good. What truth, for example, hidden from the rest of mankind? Indeed, what happened to women here? For an editor, you are not very aware. Do you think the world is a miserable place for most people? Then, get the hell out of it. What is holding you back? And, by the way, how come you haven't given me your name? I get sick and tired of just responding to " the editor." Punch in mane name and B and N, read my books, show you are on the ball, and then come back with your gripes. Meanwhile, I thihnk you are a big pain-in-the ass spoiled cynic.

Blair

 REPLY:

 YOU WROTE:

on my dissertation. You see, I base my material on what I did in graduate school. They approved of it, after a brutal three-hour oral, not to mention a 300-page dissertation.

REPLY:

Well, I'm just so impressed. You got patted on your pointy head by other pointy heads and you feel all warm and fuzzy. Doesn't PROVE a thing. You people can sit around doing your mental masturbation with each other all you want; just don't try to tell me that, since some other people agree with you, you must be right.

YOU WROTE:

If you want to win my respect

REPLY:

Not interested.

YOU WROTE:

then tear my arguments apart and then give me a chance to respond.

REPLY:

I think you miss the point. I'm not going to debate with you about things none of us can prove. You have offered no PROOF only ideas, propositions, suppositions and theories. "This happens so God must be like this..... blah, blah, blah." If nobody can prove anything about "god," then god is hiding itself, if it exists at all and why should we waste our time debating about it? If IT wanted to clear up our problems with understanding IT, IT could do so very easily.

YOU WROTE:

Your come-backs aren't any good.

REPLY:

I'm surprised that you noticed them because you haven't bothered responding to any of them.

YOU WROTE:

What truth, for example, hidden from the rest of mankind?

REPLY:

My reply to you in my last message was: "Well, if it brings you comfort to think that you have some kind of truth hidden from the rest of mankind, be my guest." You are the one that says you KNOW what god wants, does, is, etc. These are the things that nobody else in this world knows and can prove. They are hidden from the rest of us and you say you have the answers. I say you are deluding yourself if you think that you KNOW what god wants, does, is, etc. You have no PROOF. Don't be telling me that god wants something if you have no proof.

YOU WROTE:

Do you think the world is a miserable place for most people? Then, get the hell out of it. What is holding you back?

REPLY:

Its not miserable for me. I have it pretty damned good. I'm just trying to help others to free themselves from the religion trap which has caused this world to be very miserable for so many people.

YOU WROTE:

And, by the way, how come you haven't given me your name? I get sick and tired of just responding to " the editor."

REPLY:

I gather you haven't read the FAQ, which I tell everyone to read before posting to me. YOU WROTE TO ME, I didn't start this dialog. When you write to me, you do it on my terms. I never asked for your name and I don't care who you are.

YOU WROTE:

Punch in mane name and B and N, read my books,

REPLY:

Wow. I'm real impressed again. You can make money off of gullible people by putting your ideas and theories in print but have no proof whatsoever that you are right. Just goes to show that there is a sucker born every minute.

YOU WROTE:

Meanwhile, I thihnk you are a big pain-in-the ass spoiled cynic.

REPLY:

Pain in the ass skeptic is more like it. I can see why I am a pain to you because I don't let you get away with your BS and palm it off as though you have some kind of inside track into what god is, was, wants, etc.

I didn't start this discussion. You did. But I will end it because it is going no where. I think that I gave you plenty of opportunities to prove your points; you just couldn't do it.

Editor

Hi Editor:

The last update of "Acts of God," was predictably upsetting, sobering, and makes one angry.  As you know, I personally don't regard God as some "big spirit man,"  but as the infinite thot energy that provides life and intellect to the universe.  It's impersonal.  It's energy - that's all.  It doesn't give a damn about any of us personally.  We use IT's life, and use it any way we want.  There's no time or space in God (Infinite Thot), so there's nothing personal as to what we do.

Accidents happen, and "prayers" aren't answered, so the article "Acts of God" is right on.  I hope more people are listening.  It upsets me personally when I hear of great tragedies, and you're right.  There's no God listening.

But what is happening here - when I look closely - is the uncontrolled power of many of these countries leaders.  Once again, "God" ain't listening.  Because "God" is energy, that's all.  But isn't all this an exact parallel to religion?

An excellent example you quoted was the Chinese famine in 1959-1961.  The fault was Mao's.  China has a lot of sparrows, and they eat a very small percentage of the crops - mainly the wheat and corn.  Mao in his stupidity decided that those sparrows were a nuisance.  So, for about a year, the Chinese people were instructed (by Mao's orders) to KILL all the sparrows.  They did.  It was considered an honor to "kill a sparrow." 

But sparrows have another purpose.  They eat the bugs that destroy the crops.  So, for the next three years, the crops were minimal and 33 million people starved to death.  All because they upset the balance of nature.  Meanwhile, Mao feasted as usual, with his top brass.

Doesn't this sound like Herbie?  He always feasted when the membership went without. 

When Mao was later asked why he did give the order to kill all the sparrows, he reportedly did exactly as Herbie always did.  He brushed it off and dismissed the whole matter with a wave of his hands.  Thirty three million people had been dismissed as "inconsequential." 

I fear, that in this world, the SUICIDE listing is only the tip of the iceberg, as is the articles on ALCOHOLISM. 

Keep those upgrades going, as it might help some to see the real nature of "God."  But the wargoing atrocities that plague the world simply parallel rich, organized religion.

Like Joan Baez said:  "If God is on our side, He'll stop the next war."

Best.  John

 I have for years been looking for a copy of the letter Garner T. Armstrong sent to members of WWCG in, I think, 1982. In the letter it told of the enormous salaries paid to the ministers, the paid utilities and many houses given to retired ministers from the original WWCG.

I had the letter at one time and many years ago lost it. I would like to have a copy of this letter for my own personal keeping. I don't know why I want this letter but I need to read it again.

There is nothing worse than digging up the past, BUT, I really need this letter.

If you do not have it do you or anyone know where I can get a copy? I would really appreciate it.

What ever happened to HWA second wife??????

Marsha

  REPLY:

 Marsha,

I would like that letter too. I never received one, myself. Or, if I did, I probably turned it in to the "ministry" like a mind-numb robot.

I wonder if any of the readers of the PT have the letter?

YOU WROTE: What ever happened to HWA second wife??????

REPLY: After the divorce, I don't know.

 Editor

 Dear Editor

I was drawn into the Worldwide Church of God initially at the age of 13 when I first sent off for the Plain Truth. Then at the age of 18 when I left home to go to University I started attending church services and was baptized. Eventually married in the church etc etc.

It was about 5 years ago that I stopped attending because of a number of reasons.

I thank God that I did, because in that time I have been able to reevaluate a lot of things. Thankfully I am still relatively young (33) and so is my husband. Thankfully he too has broken free despite being 'brainwashed' by an upbringing in the Church and attending Ambassador College.

It was only a couple of days ago that I came upon the Painful Truth website and at last I can feel free of any remnants of guilt I still felt due to the thorough job the Church and its ministry did in making you feel like worthless shit.

I and my husband now realize we were completely duped by Herbert W Armstrong and to a lesser extent Tkach Senior. Armstrong it turns out was a man with what must have been a severe personality disorder and was a disgusting warped person.

It is only now thanks to reading John Trechak's Ambassador Reports that I can truly see Armstrong and WCG for what it is and was a CULT.

I was very sad to learn that John is now dead but just wanted you to know that the legacy of writing which he produced is still helping many new people come to realize how foolish and gullible they have been.

Like many of the letters that I have read I and my husband have in some ways been irreparably scarred but we always try to see the positive that has come out of our experiences.

We feel sad for family members still entranced and deceived by Armstrongism and its offshoots (UCG and Hulme's COG).

I feel very sad for those who are maybe now too old to try and make up for the years stolen from them by the Church and indeed the money 'stolen' through the tithing system. I give thanks that we are still young enough to try and make up the years lost (our best years teens and twenties) to the WCG.

The ministry of WCG, more so the Council of Elders are truly a sick deceived bunch of perverts.

Thank you again for all you have brought to our attention if only the Internet has been around when I was 13 and maybe I could have researched what I was getting myself into. Unfortunately the Ambassador Report was never brought to my attention by anyone within the church indeed to even talk of what was termed 'gossip' was an offence that would send the ministry into a tirade. Also not hearing the real Painful Truth was even more possible because we were attending WCG United Kingdom services and we were always the last to hear anything!!! It is only now that I discover the truth about H W Armstrong and his incestuous relationship and indeed the truth about Garner Ted Armstrong although thankfully he had been long disfellowshipped when I joined in the 1980's. Also it makes me sick to think of all the money we gave and of poor people I know who gave when Armstrong and his cronies were and are still totally misusing that money. Truly sick.

The offshoots of WCG are no better although they try and claim they are because they were borne of Armstrong and a lot of the senior ministry still are there at the top. The whole lot of them are sick and still peddling lies.

Well I am sorry for going on.

I just wanted to say Thank You and that the future now seems a lot more bright and exciting. My years and those of my husband lost to WCG can never be re-lived but I know that we are certainly a whole lot wiser and will never be taken in by such religion again. We can even thankfully laugh about some of our experiences and like lots of people that the Ambassador Report had undoubtedly helped could write books about it all.

Thank you again and thank you to John Trechak.

In hopes of promoting true understanding: Whether or not you believe in the bible as being inspired by God, believe that there is much more to what happened to the WCG than meets the eye. Mr. Armstrong spoke of men who were waiting for him to die. They are the Mafia(AFAMILY without L Y). They don't often wait for men to die. Sometimes they have to. Otherwise they see to it that their lives are ended in one way or another and PRESTO! Yet another corporation to feed off. They are quite skilled at making those who know what's happening disappear or discrediting them so it doesn't matter, anyway. They would like to see me dead, but they'll have to wait just a little while longer! Sadly, what they have done has been falsely attributed to sincere people and their cash flow comes from the same. This may not convince, but you must admit it is not impossible! One potentially offensive scripture reference: Synagogue of Satan-Revelation

Sincerely, AMAFLYI

  REPLY:

Excuse me for being skeptical but I don't see anything different that Armstrong and his minions did from most other cults. In that case, the Mafia would have to be running all these other businesses too.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Mafia got into religion if it was just for the easy money but I think that the Mafia probably has more ethics and morals than religious con-artists. The Mafia would probably look down on the religious con-artists kind of like how prisoners look down on other prisoners who are child molesters.

Why would "they" like to see you dead? I've never heard of you. Where is your website?

Editor

I just want to ask you a Question.  Your not very educated are you????? Or else your an educated IDIOT.Which is it??

Danny

  REPLY:

Danny,

Well, it is not saying much but I guess that I am more educated than you since you can't even spell properly.

YOU WROTE:
Your not very educated are you?????

REPLY:
You should have written: You are not very educated are you?????

your (yoor, y"r, yor; yer when unstressed)

Adjective

Of or pertaining to you or yourself: your wallet; your first rebuff.

But, being more educated than you doesn't necessarily make me feel very good about myself because that obviously doesn't take a lot of effort.

Given your conditions, I guess that I would tend to be more of an educated idiot. The more educated a person is, the less they will be willing to believe the fairy tales in the Bible. I guess god just loves to have stupid people believe him, otherwise he would have written a book that contained irrefutable evidence that it is divinely inspired. Since it is so easily refuted by those who are willing to use their brains, those who believe in it must be unwilling to use their brains.

So, who is the real idiot, those who use their brains or those who don't?

Editor

 REPLY:

I'm glad that I do not know U because U can not see past your nose.Tell me what medical miracle is it that allows you to live without benefit of having a HEART to guide you when your BRAIN fails you in such a way as your brain obviously has.I myself once did not believe that there is a God but then in a time of great need I challenged him to prove to me that he really existed,and I meant what I said so he took me up and I lost for the first time in my life but my lose was actually my GAIN.Oh I'll admit Satan has a lot of false teachers in the churches today but that is why we are to "seek and you shall find"if we go by what others teach us ,how are we to know if they are teaching us right if we do not seek the answers for ourselves.When ever someone from a church tells me I should not do something I do it in order to find out WHY.Such as reading the lost books of the bible.I read them to find out if I am missing something that the churches do not want me to know about them.I don't know who you are but you have obviously made the same mistake that I made for so many years,You are seeking knowledge through your head and not your heart.Challenge God to show you that he exist and ask that he will teach you and give you his blessings and knowledge,and to bless you with the HOLY SPIRIT if you are SINCERE from the heart and not the head he will show you the way.   My prayer for you is that he will show you the TRUTH. 

Danny

 REPLY:

 YOU WROTE:

Tell me what medical miracle is it that allows you to live without benefit of having a HEART to guide you when your BRAIN fails you in such a way as your brain obviously has.

REPLY:

So, we should let our "hearts" tell us what religion to belong to? That means we would believe what the rest of the people around us believe, what our family and friends believe.

Tell me what religion your heart would be telling you to be a member of if you lived in India, Hinduism? In Hati, Voodoo? In China, Confucianism? In Japan, Shintoism? In Thailand, Buddhism?

YOU WROTE:

how are we to know if they are teaching us right if we do not seek the answers for ourselves

REPLY:

So, it is okay to use your brain sometimes but not others?

YOU WROTE:

Challenge God to show you that he exist

REPLY:

I'm here and I'm waiting. If you exist, God, here is a willing servant all ready to follow you with all my heart. I have to have some proof though. I'm still waiting.

YOU WROTE:

if you are SINCERE from the heart and not the head he will show you the way

REPLY:

So, why did god give us brains?

I see that you will use your brain for some things, to "seek answers" but then you advise me to not use my brain but my heart. How do you decide when to use which?

In this most important decision in life, finding the true path to "god", god wants us to not think about it and prove it is true or false but to, instead, just let our hearts tell us what to do. There are so many religions and sects out there, how is a heart supposed to decide?

 Have you researched ALL the different religions of the world so that your heart could decide based upon having feelings for each one? If you have not, then maybe your heart is making its decision based on feelings that are not complete.

Still waiting,

Editor

to one of satans demons; you really are one hateful being and people like you are the ones who are destroying this world with your lies and hate filled atitude, one day you will have to answer to GOD and I know that I would not want to be in your place, also get a life ! signed disgusted with your site

Herbert Wendowsky

hwendowsky7@hotmail.com

 Hi

I couldn't find it in the FAQ so I dare to ask: Where can I find the scoop on the WWCG? I remember back in the early 80ies they offered a lot of publications for free, in almost all languages. I was a kid and took this as a way to improve my English. Little did I know about religion then. Well, I grew up, lost my faith if I ever had it and forgot about the WWCG.

Now I come to your site and don't understand at all what you guys are all complaining about. Are they in some way related to Scientology perhaps?

If there's a short summary on your site which would answer this question then please let me know. I'll continue digging for it but I'm not sure if I'll find it.

Cheers

Thomas

 REPLY:

Thomas, Thanks for your message.
There is no short summary.
Try these pages:

exposed.htm
personal.htm
personal2.htm
personal3.htm

Hello Painful Truth,

 My Mother started going to the world wide church of God 3 years ago. Since then My Mother and Father have divorced they were married for almost 30 years. My Mother will not come to my wedding since it is on a Saturday and she can't miss church. My Mother worships these ministers in her church, she gives them everything. I will be talking on the phone to my Mom, and she will get another call she will click over to the other line and never come back. Then later on she will call me back and say it was the ministers wife, and did not want to disrupt her. My Mom never goes to any family events anymore. My father actually went to these ministers and asked for help to save his marriage to my Mom, but the ministers told my Dad they don't get involved in family issues. What kind of crap is that! My family and I feel we are no longer of importance to her. I just want my Mom back, and have no idea how to get her back. Please if you have any ideas or suggestions, please write me.

Thank you,

signed (Hurting Daughter)

 REPLY:

 Dear Hurting,

My heart goes out to you for what you are going through. I wish that I could offer you some help but the only thing you can do is realize that your mother is sick. You wouldn't love her any less if she had a brain tumor, would you? Religion is a sickness. It can ruin your life, just like cancer or polio or some other terrible disease.

All I can say is love your mother; overlook the fact that she is sick, in fact, cut her some extra slack because she really can't help herself. She is hooked on a very powerful drug.

There is hope. After a time, lots of people will wake up to the fact that they have had their minds controlled by unscrupulous people. They will have a lot of regrets and missing a daughter's wedding will be among the top ones. At least she is alive. She could be dead and there be no hope that she would be able to regain a normal life again.

I am ever so glad that my family did not reject me while I was hooked on the drug of religion. When I got straight again, I was able to apologize and try to make up for my foolishness. I'm glad that they were still there waiting for me.

Yeah, these ministerial leeches will not get involved in family issues but they have no compunction against CAUSING the family issues. Just a bunch of hirelings out for the easy money. Money is their god. They care nothing for the lives they destroy, only about themselves.

Be there for your mom. Don't make this bad thing worse.

Editor

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