The Painful Truth About The Worldwide Church of God

Email To The Editor
(Page 54)
(Mail from Kooks, Nuts and Loonies is on another page)

 

8/2/01

REPLY to previous:

 Editor:

I sense that if I answered all of your questions, and I can, you still would have more questions. As I said, we will agree to disagree.

E. Scott

REPLY:

 I will agree that, if you had any convincing answers, you would present them. You do not have any confidence in your support for the bible, so you run away without defending your beliefs with any proof. So be it. Don't worry about it, there is NO proof, so I gave you an impossible task.

And so, I will agree that I have no evidence that the bible was written or inspired by God and neither do you.

Editor

 I have been reading articles on your sight again, and I still cannot figure out why you hate so badly. Every word you write is filled with venom. What was your connection with the WW Church that you give much of your life trying to destroy--in any way you can. I haven't found any explanation of the dasterdly deeds done to you that you feed on, that's sustains your hate.

I was never a member of the WW Church--but I have read virtually everything Mr. Armstrong wrote since 1968, and I KNOW most of what is printed on your website is NOT what he taught. Thus, this site has no credibility for me. Did you or your contributors ever think maybe you are the "false ministers, and "false prophets", spoken of. That you are the ones inspired by Satan? Certainly seems that way to me!  

Please do not give my email to anyone else like you did a year ago and again recently. I will just delete them.

 Annette craneat@gru.net

Dear Sir,

I was raised in WCG and I also have had serious "issues" and difficulty forgiving.

I read your FAQs and got a good laugh. My father has been "blacklisted" by most "church" organizations, so he has filled me in on the escapades of H. W. Armstrong. We have given him the adoring name of "Pervert." I think what you are doing is a good thing, and it gives me comfort knowing I am not the only one who feels so strongly towards "the church" and religion.

Rachel

An open letter to Sparkes.

No Sparkes, most are NOT against you.  Besides "heterosexual" means a straight person.  "Homosexual" means one who's gay.  But, who the hell cares?  We MUST have tolerance on this planet.  We're all different. 

My God!  My wife and I have had differences for almost 38 years, but that doesn't make us enemies.  It makes us learn from each other.  Neither of us wanna be sexually like the other, but we can live in peace.

I don't think the intent of the article by Mike M was to be ugly, but simply to express an opinion - and you certainly have yours.  Have you read the article that I wrote about "tolerance" GAY OR STRAIGHT.  The purpose of it was to expose INTOLERANCE.  We're all different, especially to religions (God forbid), but unless we can live in peace among religions and sexes, then we can NEVER mix with the rest of the Universe.  We're all gonna be different, but we must be tolerant of that.  When we find compatibility, we meld.

No one hates or condemns you.  Read the above article.  It explains many things - from doctors, scientists, and psychologists.

Let's all be friends.  That's the only way peace will be achieved.

Best.  JohnO.

 This is in reply to the lady who called herself Sparkes.

At the outset, I will state that I don't think Mike M intended to bash or in any way criticize gays. Having said that, I leave Mike to defend himself if he feels it necessary.

Now... Sparkes.

I am an OWMHCRNG (old white male hetero conservative republican nice guy), a former slave of Jesus Christ and the Worldwide Church of God. You were also apparently once a slave, so you know exactly where I'm coming from. I have to tell you, I almost cried when I read your letter to Mike. I am so glad you had the courage to speak out.

Leaving the WCG in 1992 after literally 40 years under the influence of HWA (40 years in captivity) meant that I had to consciously reevaluate everything I had ever believed. Everything. As a christian I had been a homophobe, a gay-basher, any name you want to put to it. Looking to the bible as my authority, I believed that all gays should be put to death. I blamed them for the AIDS epidemic, among other things. It angered me that they called themselves "gay", perverting the original meaning of the word. In my mind they were simply "queers", undeserving of respect or consideration. I refused to watch the movie "Philadelphia" because I considered it gay propaganda.

That was my attitude up until 1992. I confess this with shame.

But during my period of reevaluation, in addition to every other attitude I had to rethink, I also faced the question of homosexuality: why did I have such contempt for gays? Contrary to some psychological theories, it was not because I had repressed homosexual tendencies (I had been propositioned twice by gay men and each experience was fairly traumatic). Upon serious reflection, I realized the only reason I held the opinions I did were because of a lifetime of religious brainwashing.

So where did I go from there? I had to ask myself some hard questions, such as: what would I do if I discovered that one of my kids was gay? Would I do what so many have done - turn my back on my own flesh and blood?

The answer to that was easy. NO FUCKING WAY! I love my kids unconditionally, no matter what.

But then, what about...?

In the end it was really simple. I simply did what you did, Sparkes, though not as thoroughly. I reversed the roles and put myself in the center. I asked "What if?" What if the whole world was gay except for me? What would I do if pressure was put on me to stop being heterosexual? Would I do it? Could I do it?

No. I couldn't.

It's that simple.

And spare me any arguments that gays are "made, not born" - sexual preference is not learned, it's built in. You're born with it. It simply is. (And that's what the meaning of "is" is!)

So I rented "Philadelphia" and watched it. It was a wonderful movie.

Just two days ago (as I write this) I had a lengthy conversation with one of my cousins, a man I haven't seen since 1964. He's almost 60 now, and we've had zero contact since we were very young. For many years I heard rumors that he was gay, but no one knew for sure. He has now come out of the closet, and during our telephone time we discussed it at some length. He has had to fight an uphill battle all his life; his own father all but disowned him, his mother bitterly opposed his life style. He tried marriage once, but it didn't work. He is what he is, and he finally found happiness by accepting what he could never change. He is now suffering from a brain tumor that may end his life. I may never see him again (he lives on the east coast, I live on the west), but at least we're now friends. I plan to keep in touch with him.

Because he's my cousin, and I love him.

His name is Jimmy.

 John B

8/6/01

In Reply to Sparkes

<grin

Gotcha mad, huh?

Provoked you into opening a dialog, huh? Good! Therein lies the way to peace.

I may not have written it right, but what I was trying to suggest, was that tolerance extends all around: I may not 'like' the idea of homosexuality; however, it is imperative that I have tolerance. It is also a two way street. YOU, and all the other militant folks out there, religious, rasicst, homosexual, whatever, ought to have some tolerance for others too and yes, just shut up and sit down and get outta my face.

I don't care what you are, Sparkes.

Be cool, chill out, and just be a human being first.

Regards,

MikeM

Editor,

I went to Beef O Brady's, which is a local sports bar. And of course, Beefs has dozens of TV's.

One of the girls who works there had one of the TV's, which was high up in a corner, showing Richard Roberts. The same Richard Roberts who moved into a brand new 7,000 square foot home on the very day Oral Roberts climbed the tower to meet God's fate -unless the people sent in several million dollars. (I wonder if there is a connection?)

As usual, the TV's sound was turned down, and boy did I get a show...

I had no idea of what clowns these guys act like. Without sound, RR's actions, gestures, facial expressions and mannerisms were absolutely hilarious. This guy looked like a total fool. And this was without hearing his words. His gestures and movements were grandiose and humorously exaggerated.

Every movement, every gesture, and every expression was comically melodramatic. And even the way he moved his mouth made him look like a clown, even without hearing what came out of his mouth.

Then this linebacker-type woman got up and sang. Her face became contorted and she looked like she was in agonizing pain. She had to be either remembering, or experiencing, labor pains.

The camera then panned a group of people who were answering phone calls. They were laughing and talking like they were either drunk or high on something. One dude in particular acted like he had just won the lottery. It was a wonder he didn't knock somebody down with his wild, swinging gestures. Maybe the director was promising him a beautiful woman over his thin, modern headset.

The cameraman then dutifully panned the audience and zoomed in on several people who had that unmistakable glazed, glassy eyed look of a drug-addict. RR wore more makeup than Tammy Fay Baker. This guy looked like someone on skid row with an inch of face-paste. I strongly suspect that what he is drinking sure ain't holy water. I can believe spirits though.

With the sound on, they sound like fools and clowns. Without sound, they look like fools and clowns. The weird, inappropriate, exaggerated gestures and motions will make you laugh your ass off.

I just found some new Sunday morning cartoons. All you have to do is hit the mute button and grab a towel for the tears of laughter....

 JimV NoMoreCults@Aol.Com  

 

Forgive me if I do not write back promptly, I don't check my e-mail often. I felt compelled to write. I see that many people accociated with Worldwide have commited suicide. I'm sure there were many different pressures to cause someone to reach such desperate measures! Anyway, I wanted to give you a different view. I used to attend Worldwide, now I attend Living. I do not consider myself self righteous and I don't look down on others. This is something I see many people concerned with that find fault with the church I attend. I remind my sister that God calls the foolish of the earth. At first she was upset at me attending church thinking it would change my view of her. But actually I'm more kind to her, more patient, and I apoligize when I'm wrong (ok, sometimes). Before I attended church, I ran away from home after my father broke my nose at 13 years old. I was homeless and lived in squats in Hollywood. Along with ot! her kids in my situation, I was labelled a loser, never going to make it. Statistics said I'd end up in jail, die of AIDS, etc.. Many of my close friends have died. I still write a few in prison. I, at the time totally wanted to kill myself. It actually was turned around BECAUSE I realized God's plan for humaniy and that I have a loving father so unlike the one I grew up with. It still took me many years to "trust" this God. I had serious trust issues being around such dangerous people all the time. I had been attacked on the street and gone through horrific things, that now I realize has made me stronger. I ended up being baptized at 19. I finished high school with high honors. I've attended college, also with honors. I'm now 25, married to a wonderful guy (before I thought men were a threat) and pregnant with my second child. I have completely changed! Not that I'm better than anybody. I love my sister in Oakland, Dogtown, with her 5 tongue piercin! gs and athesitic ideas more than anyone! But I have hope that I have never experienced! I know that Christ will return. And that he's patient, merciful, and just. If I believed God to be otherwise, I wouldn't have the excitement and honor I have for such a Great God. He's saved my life!

-Glory

REPLY:

 YOU WROTE:
I used to attend Worldwide, now I attend Living.

 REPLY:  
Ah, yes. Rod of Iron Merrydeath. Herbie Junior. Herbie wannabe. All warmed up Armstrongism. He could never give up the power. The world will be a cleaner place when he is no longer around.

 YOU WROTE:
It actually was turned around BECAUSE I realized God's plan for humaniy and that I have a loving father so unlike the one I grew up with.

 REPLY:
So, you just kind of "realized" this "plan."
Can you prove any of that to me? I know that you can't. You just "believe" it.

If this "god" of the Bible, that you worship, were held to the same standards as human fathers, He would be in jail for child abuse.

If you would hold the Bible to the same standards as any other book, you wouldn't worship it. And lets make this perfectly clear: It is the Bible that you are worshipping, not a god. You worship this book because you believe it and follow it without question. You believe that it was "written" or "inspired" by a god but you have no proof of that. You just believe it.

 YOU WROTE:
But I have hope that I have never experienced! I know that Christ will return.

 REPLY:
You "know" that he will return but you can't prove to me that this "Christ" even existed. No, you can't. There is no proof. You just "believe" it with no proof at all. And, don't think that I haven't researched this thing thoroughly. What you "believe" cannot be proven. All you can do is believe it and hope all these religious clowns, trying to make a living off of gullible people, are telling you the truth.

 YOU WROTE:
And that he's patient, merciful, and just.

 REPLY:
I must say that all evidence points to the contrary conclusion.

Evidence from your bible alone will show that the god you worship is very impatient and jealous, killing millions of people, including women and children, in "the flood" and ordering innocent neighboring nations of Israel to be exterminated, including women and children. He didn't even treat his "own" people much better. One of His Kings pisses him off and he goes and kills thousands of the King's subjects to teach the King a lesson. I don't think that these exterminated people would give a good testimony as to the "patience and mercy" of your god.

As far as "just" goes, take a look at the way this god views women as virtual slaves and something to be owned rather than as an equal to a male. Is that "just?"

Is it "just" for a rapist to be able to "buy" the woman that he raped? Dt. 22:23-34

Is it "just" for a raped women to be killed after she had been raped if she committed the "crime" of not crying out loud enough? Dt. 22:23-34

Numbers 5:11-31 describes a magical ritual that women were forced to perform if their husbands suspected them of having had an affair. A priest prepared a potion composed of holy water mixed with sweepings from the floor of the tabernacle. He proclaimed a curse over the potion and required the woman to drink it. If she were guilty, she would suffer greatly: her abdomen would swell and her thighs waste away. There is no similar magical test for husbands suspecting of having an affair with another woman.

Is this "just?"

In Numbers 27:8-11, Moses describes the rules of inheritance that God has stated. If a man dies, his son inherits the estate; his daughter gets nothing. If there is no son, then his daughter inherits. If there are no children, then the estate is given to the man's brothers; his sister(s) get nothing.

Is this "just?"

I could go on and on but this illustrates the point that this god is not just in just this one regard alone.

 YOU WROTE:

If I believed God to be otherwise, I wouldn't have the excitement and honor I have for such a Great God.

 REPLY:

Well, don't let me confuse you with any facts. Otherwise you would see that this "great god" is nothing but a figment of your imagination or a nightmare. You can find the horrible facts of life on this planet on the Acts of God page.

When I see how this god did not help these millions of people who died while "god" looked the other way, I would find it very hard to tell someone that they should "trust" this god.

For most people on this earth, life is a continual struggle and the only reason they turn to religion is for some hope for a better life after death.

 YOU WROTE:

He's saved my life! -Glory

 REPLY:

So, just why would this god take the trouble to save your life while he lets millions of others be raped, tortured, mutilated and killed? Why is your life so much more valuable than all these others whose only crime is that they may have been born in the wrong country or have never heard of your god or joined your religion? This god of yours has deemed your life so much more important than millions of others, in that he has stepped in and changed the whole future course for all mankind, since even the slightest change in the way things would naturally happen will result in people living and dying and marrying and having babies that they would not have ordinarily done. Everything changes forever into the future whenever this god steps in and changes something by answering a prayer or manipulating a person's life.

Just for example, if your god hadn't "saved" you, you would have died of Aids or whatever and never would have had your two children. All the jobs you have had would have had to have been worked by other people. Your husband would have married someone else. Your children would have never been born and any children that they have would not be born, etc., etc., ad infinitum.

See the Butterfly Effect article.

 For anyone to think that their god manipulates what would normally happen in the future just to answer their prayer is incredibly self-centered and delusional. To think that the whole future of mankind can be manipulated by millions of "Christians" praying for various things, jobs, mates, family, life, death, children, sickness, healing, football games, parking places, what have you, boggles the mind of any thinking person.

 I can just see this "god" pondering whether or not to answer a prayer of a good Christian woman who needs  a parking place close to the store. God has to know that, if he answers her prayer, she will get back to her car 30 seconds sooner than if he doesn't answer the prayer. In that case she will get home 30 seconds sooner and find that her husband is home but about to leave to play golf. They have a romantic interlude and a child is conceived with a sperm and ovum in a combination that never would have been reproduced at any other time. If god had not answered her prayer, the child never would have been conceived, etc., etc. And, since this god can see the future he has to know that this child will grow up to be a great doctor that will save millions of lives because of his discovery of a cure for cancer but one of his grandchildren will assassinate the President and result in nuclear war that will push humanity back to the dark ages. So, should God answer the lady's prayer and get her a parking place or not? The same mind boggling consequences hold true for any other answered prayers. Everything changes when a prayer is answered. Is it fair to everyone else that this lady prays for a parking place?

Does god keep dancing around on the head of a pin trying to juggle all prayer requests and interventions to try to keep the future consequences to a minimum or does he answer prayers and just let things change, willy nilly?

Go rent the movie: "Frequency." Just got done watching it. An excellent demonstration of the results of how everything changes when you alter what would have happened without external interference. It would be unconscionable for any god to interfere in our lives. The consequences are too great.

It is no wonder that there is much more evidence for the complete non-involvement of any God in the lives of human beings than there is for any god that cares about us. That would be the only "fair" way for a god to operate. Let things play out on their own. No interventions. Period. All evidence says that we are on our own. Expect no help from any god. Take whatever help you can get from others and work things out for yourself. That is the best you are going to get.

If I may quote LTJG in his latest article on the PT website: "God of Love or Vengeful Sadist?" 

"We are left with two possibilities. First, it is possible that there is no God, that everything around us is the result of random collisions of molecules. This is a possibility that appeals to some, and I have to say that I find it psychologically easier to deal with than the other possibility, which is that there is a God, and he is exactly like he is described in the Bible: a vengeful, violent deity with a very short fuse and a penchant for bloody death and as much pain as can be conveniently and efficiently dealt out"

 YOU WROTE:

Forgive me if I do not write back promptly, I don't check my e-mail often.

 REPLY:

Hey! I understand. I was there. When you have to spend at least 30 minutes plus in daily prayer, another 30 minutes plus in personal Bible Study, give up a whole day of your life and give it to the church, make sure you attend the Wednesday night Bible Study, go to Spokesman Club or Women's Club, do volunteer work to make the church look like a part of the community when really you pity them and know that they are all going to die in the Tribulation, but they will have "their chance" later on, go to rummage sales because, after you give "god" all the money that he needs so badly, you can't afford to buy your or your children's clothes at a real store, participate in the Candy or Orange Sale for a fundraiser, paint the minister's house, work on the church database, etc., etc, you don't have enough time for your own family let alone checking your email.

I forgive you.

 Sorry if I have destroyed your "hope" but, I doubt that I have. If you are as much a "true believer" as I was, you are not fazed in the least. These things take time. But, that time will come, probably after you have wasted a lot of your life in your present cult and wasted a lot of your money on these cult leaders and screwed up your children's lives. Before you go and kill yourself when you finally wake up to the truth that there is no god that cares about us and that you have been a sucker to a bunch of con-men, realize that you still have most of your life ahead of you and you have the power to make that life the very best that you want simply because you were lucky enough to be born in the greatest country on this planet. Don't let anyone tell you what "god" wants you to do and don't let anyone control you or make you feel guilty about anything until they can PROVE what they teach. Hard, physical proof because anything else is just make-believe, fictional dreaming and wishing.

 And be as skeptical about them as you surely are about me. Who wants your money, them or me??????

Editor

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