YOU WROTE: fullfilled
Bible prophecies
REPLY: Ridiculous. If Christians had any irrefutable
evidence that their prophecies actually have come true
or will come true, then the whole world would believe
them. The fact of the matter is that every "so called
prophecy" in the bible can be explained or refuted.
YOU WROTE: coroberation
of events and people of the Bible by secular and outside
sources
REPLY: So, just because some of the things or persons in
the bible actually happened or existed, that makes the
book the "word of god?" My friend, you are very
gullible. There are millions of other books in existence
that can be corroborated by events and outside sources.
I will have to assume that you, using this criteria,
also believe they are the "word of god."
YOU WROTE: text that
teaches a way of life that if practiced does actually
lead to blessings and prosperity
REPLY: So, any book that will tell you how to prosper
and live a good life is the word of god? I submit to you
that there are many, many of these types of books but
most of them do not have an evil god in them that goes
around killing people that will not follow him.
Regardless of that, go to my
Acts of
God page. Tell me that
ALL of the people that were trying their best to follow
your god and your god let die agonizing, miserable
deaths, were actually being blessed and prospering. If
this book cannot be relied upon to bring these
blessings, if your god cannot be relied upon to fulfill
the promises in the book, what is the point of following
either one? A promise of a life after death that nobody
can prove will happen? That is about all you will get
out of that book.
YOU WROTE: one has to be
able to "rightly divide the word of truth" and come to
the correct conclusion
REPLY: Your god makes it very hard for a person to find
out what "truth" is. You have to read this book that is
very confusing and contradictory with a lot of things in
it that are just plain wrong. Get a little truth from
here, a little from there. Put it all together then
divide it and then come up with the right conclusion. I
gather, since there are so many different churches and
beliefs, supposedly founded on your bible, that most of
them are wrong. In fact, only one of them can be right.
That really narrows down how many people this god is
willing to have in his "family." Doesn't sound like a
very loving "father" who would make finding and
following so hard to do.
Sorry, but I am not interested in such a god. If he
wants me to follow him, he will have to come and get me.
I need some proof before I will believe. I've got this
bad habit of using my brain, something Christians cannot
be accused of.
You have a nice day too.
REPLY:
Sorry to hear that you are so sour
God
is not trying to call everyone now "the truth is vieled"
... because if he was he would be failing, God does not
and will not fail
Most of the people in the United States (and probably
the rest of the world) profess a belief in God (gods).
And most of them say that they try to please him or be
good, but lets face it they are hypocrits... conceed for
a moment that the Bible is God's communication to
mankind, it plainly states how to live and how to deal
with others [Ten Commandments and the sermon on the
mount]... if people actually read the Bible and lived
its teachings the world would really be different
face the Bible (as a guide to living) is not to be
lumped with get rich quick and pyramid scheems or self
help books
I
hope that God does not have to come get you.
REPLY:
LOOK! Don't send me
anything else unless you have some proof of what you
believe. Otherwise, what you think doesn't matter one
good shit to me.
YOU
WROTE: God is not trying to call everyone now "the truth
is vieled"
REPLY: Don't tell me
what god is trying to do unless he talked to you and
told it to you. Then you can prove that to me too.
YOU
WROTE: conceed for a moment that the Bible is God's
communication to mankind
REPLY: I will not
concede for a moment that the bible is gods
communication. It is full of errors. What kind of god
would do that to people?
YOU
WROTE: if people actually read the Bible and lived its
teachings the world would really be different
REPLY: Oh, yes it
certainly would. Women would continue to be second class
citizens. Children would be stoned to death for
disobedience. God would be killing people who don't
believe in him. People would be executed for breaking
the Sabbath. Etc.
YOU
WROTE: I hope that God does not have to come get you.
REPLY: That is exactly
what a loving father would to a lost child. I'm here,
ready and willing to believe. I just need some proof. I
will not turn my brain off as you are so willing to do.
Alexander, you are
incredibly naive and obviously not very educated. Go
away and come back in ten years and tell me what you
think then.
Hello,
I
would like to say that what was once preached in the
Worldwide Church of God is now preached in the Church of
God, who broke off of United Church of God, who in turn
broke off of the Worldwide Church of God. If your
wandering, David Hulme is now the President of the
Church of God, and although we are pretty small right
now compared to what WORLDWIDE CHURCH OF GOD once was,
we still believe in what Mr. Herbert W. Armstrong once
taught because it is the truth even though we have
expanded on it some since we now know more. The only
reason why David Hulme was fired from the United Church
of God was because most of UCG was going down the wrong
path. And that is all that I have to say.
Sincerely,
A.
Anderson
REPLY:
Just for my records, is your
official name "Church of God" or is there some qualifier
for that? There can only officially be ONE Church of God
and I thought that was taken a long time ago or Herbie
would have taken it. I need to know the official name of
another crazy cult.
It is a sad thing that
there are people that still believe all this absolute
drivel and are still being misled. David Hulme should be
ashamed of himself.
Hello Editor,
I
have enjoyed your website, The Painful Truth, as it is
the first of any kind of material that I have come up on
of the revealing sort directed toward hwa and the wcg.I
never knew about the Ambassador Report or any material
that discounted wcg in any way. Our "ministry" did their
"work" on us very well. I detest what has happened and I
am angry. I have been out of the "church" for 6+ years
and I am only getting madder. I am struggling with
actual hate. I hope it is hatred toward actions and not
toward the person. Although, when I think of any of
"them", I do not feel so generous. Yes, I'd like to see
more apologies from these people but I doubt there will
be many in coming. I appreciate your honesty and that is
something that we of the "old school" have not had much
given to us. I can understand how some people can feel
threatened by your honesty in your beliefs. I may not
agree with every thing you say but then again it is your
website and I can just click onto something else, can't
I? I do agree with your exposing the crap! More of it
should come to light. I enjoyed The Graveyard
Church....and I thought that my computer was messed up
when I couldn't get it. Then I read a letter from one of
your readers who couldn't get it and your response
saying it was down.( I am new to internet)
Though I do believe in God, I do not believe in the god
of the churches. I do not believe that He is involved in
people's lives like we have been taught. I simply do not
know what He is doing or where we are going. I cannot
"prove" to anyone that He exists except to look at the
world around me and my own existence. I do not attribute
everything to Him--good or bad . Sh-t happens! Good
things happens! I do not know!!!!! I want to be honest
too. And I do not know!!! Thanks for your honesty, it is
refreshing. So it steps on people's toes. They'll get
over it. And I know enough about you from your writings
that it really doesn't matter to you if they don't. I'll
continue to peruse your website and enjoy.
Sincerely,
Leigh
Hi.
I just wanted you to know that I take to heart what has
been revealed about the Real Garner Ted. I have to agree
with just about everyone else, he does speak very well
on his TV broadcast. But I do realize that a false
prophet will sound convincing or else he would not be
able to deceive anyone. I was really surprised to see
how big of a hypocrite Mr. Armstrong is. It's really
scary. I had already thrown away ALL of the material
sent to me from his organization because of some things
that I heard about him before. But coming across the
info you provide concerning him really did it for me.
Again I say 'Thank You'. By the way, could you please do
me a favor? I would like to get the file posted called
"Into the bed with Garner Ted". I'm having a hard time
getting it from the newsgroup. I did not get a chance to
see the videotape from the Geraldo show and really would
like to. If you could do this I would be most grateful.
Again Thank You very much.
--Billy
I
am married to one of the crazy people who have put
Herbert Armstrong on a pedestal instead of our Father.
Jerry truly believes he is a prophet of this generation
and sent here by "Yah" to save the world. He is the most
violent angry negative abusive man I have ever met in my
life and I can't get him out of my life. He says I am
stupid to "Yah's" word and a plastic "Christian" This is
a cult isn't it. Help me to understand and know what I
am dealing with. I am terrified.
REPLY:
Yes, it is a cult.
You might want to let
him read of all 208 of herbies
failed prophecies. But, I don't think even this will
dissuade him from what he WANTS to believe. Most of
these prophecy nuts will not change their beliefs in the
face of any proofs.
You have to decide for
yourself whether you love him enough to stay with him.
Get some counseling from
people that can help you.
Realize this: you are
not going to change him. You can only change what you
do.
Just because he is
ruining his life with his crazy beliefs, doesn't mean
that your life has to be ruined too. This may be the
only life you ever get; make the most of it.
Editor
Hi,
I
read an article sometime ago concerning religious wars
while looking at your site. The author pointed out how
both sides pray to God. The article also pointed out how
little children are molested routinely in other
countries. I would like to read it again. Could you help
me in locating it?
Thank you,
Connie
REPLY:
I'm
not sure what article you are referring to but you might
want to do search on the site. Too many articles for me
to remember them all. Also, try to remember if you found
it on the main page towards the bottom, that would mean
it is a more recent article. Then you can look on the
dropdown menu and see what the more recent articles are,
towards the bottom of the list.
Regarding the molestation of
children, see
http://www.psychohistory.com/
. Just an incredible amount of information on how
children around the world are routinely sexually abused
and have been down through the years. Apparently that is
and has been the "norm" in many countries all down
through history. A very sad commentary on the human
race.
Editor
Just ran across your Web site after years without any
serious trip down the nostalgia highway. Anyway, it all
made me remember some folks and the inevitable question;
"Wonder what ever happened to....".
So,
bottom line is that I would be interested in receiving
an e-mail from anyone that may remember a somewhat
recalcitrant former "Port' editor and all-round
unrepentant "scum sucker" who remains much the same.
Gerry R. Ghearing
gghearing@msn.com
4/13/02
Regarding
previous message:
The official name is
Church of God, An International Community. Well, I must
say that I feel that you are the one that is being
misled instead of me or anybody in our church. It is a
sad thing if someone doesn't believe what David Hulme is
teaching because he and the other ministers in our
church are teaching what is the truth, and I guess some
people jsut can not accept.
REPLY:
You are right: I do not accept as truth things which
cannot be proven. You cannot prove that Hulme or any of
your ministers are preaching anything that is TRUTH. If
you wish to mindlessly believe things that is your
business. I prefer to use the one thing that I know
"god" gave me to decide what truth is, my brain. That
would make it impossible for me to believe the teachings
of Hulme.
Editor
Just read the slander you have been saying about
Mr.Herbert Armstrong, I feel sorry for you when the day
comes when you have to stand in front of Jesus Christ
,and God the Father for the things that you are saying,
funny thing that you waited until he died to come up
with this slander, if i was his family i would sue you
for slander to his name I was a member of The World Wide
Church for 25 or more years and i am proud to say , i
don't believe a thing you say about him, May God have
mercy on you whoever ,and whatever your names are. A
true believer in what goes around comes around.
Fred C Gray <fredgray5@juno.com>
Briefly, my name is
Jaget. I am an Indian, presently I am in Oman, working.
I came in contact with WCG in 1981. Disillusioned I left
wcg in 94-'95. WCG completely ruined my life.
I happened to see your
site yesterday. I spent an hour reading about HWA and
his evil works.
I just finished reading
about the suicides. In India some members of wcg
committed suicide.
For lack of time I
shall mention one such incident.
Lynn was a member of
WCG. He lived in Chennai, in South India. WCG taught its
members to keep the Sabbath strictly. Because of
Sabbath-keeping it was impossible to find job. So he
could not find a job. He was distraught, quarreled with
his mother (a member, too). The church severely
reprimanded him. He jumped before a rushing train, died
a ghastly death. The church announced that an accident
claimed Lynn's life. He was around 29 years of age when
he died.
I was in Mumbai when
this incident happened. A friend of mine, Antony,
disfellowshipped from the WCG, told me all these things.
Lynn was a good friend of mine.
You can use this
information for a good cause. You can also use my name.
I would like to write
more, about other suicides. I am at work now. I shall
write some other time. I hope to read everything in the
site.
Please drop me a line,
if you have the time.
In all sincerity Jaget
i was reading your page
and im sorry but it seems like you just have an ax to
grind, your sources are crap. you have the ambassador
reports, which was easily seen as a bunch of lies in the
State of California vs. Worldwide Church of God. it
pains me to see someone of your age be such a jerk. God
will deal with you later for what you are doing, you are
obviously a moron. incest? you believe his son who was
disfellowshipped and wanted to take over WCG from his
own father? you're an idiot.
Andrew
drewski"
rommel000@hotmail.com
Editor:
I just love the fact that you were
able to co-op the evil name of Herbert W. Armstrong and
use it in helping his victims recover! Is that
poetic justice, or what? It appears that a "new
door has opened" through which you will be able to reach
many more people. Way to go!
Best to you!
Bob E
REPLY:
Ain't it great?!! I hope
he's spinning in his grave.
Hehehehehehehehheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.....................
Editor
Greetings! I am a system administrator (which is why I
can't spell, punctuate or use caps) and I found your
page from doing a search on fixing sendmail (UNIX e-mail
server software if you care/did not know). None of this
is relevant other then for a "hmmmm, I guess you cant
always find what you want but you get what you need"!
Anyhow I have been digging around your site for hours
now and have plans for it on the Sabbath. Here is a
little (long winded self centered) background. I believe
that it is relevant. I am, however, sorry to be typical:
I want something from you so I will make it as painful
and exhausting for you as possible with verbiage. I will
ease it up a bit for you by putting my real point at the
end of this message after a break. If you want, skip to
it. Of course, I think you should read this part too,
cause I want help. ;)
Anyhow, I knew nothing of the worldwide church of god
until after hwa's death. I came into the pcg and was
learning from them until they told me I could not attend
services until I quit smoking. Which I thought was a
poor way to help someone! But anyhow, we were told that
Tkach was a bad man and had undermined all of what hwa
did and the worldwide church of god was now laodecia.
Anyhow, I never heard a bad thing about hwa until I saw
a mention of him doing something with his daughter on
your site. Still haven't found details on that, but I'll
keep lurking. Anyhow, I don't believe I am brainwashed.
I don't believe that the church is right on all things
but I have not been able to disprove it. I have
constantly tried. I beg people to prove me wrong and
crazy, but it's been a few years. Everybody is convinced
I am a loony but no-one can help me understand why.
Prove me a loony please!
Shortened to be concise rather then totally accurate:
Daniel describes history from past to present. It's
pretty accurate as far as I can tell. Things that hwa
and the pcg have prophesied have/are coming true. How
does this fit into your collective opinions? How do you
refute or deal with these things? What disproved the
bible for you on the major points? I know there is a lot
(o, that's what a "shift" key does ;) ) bad stuff in the
bible. There is, of course, a lot of bad stuff around
humans. But that does not disprove it. How do you deal
with these "facts"? Or, more correctly, what made you
realize this was irrelevant or incorrect?
G
**********************************
I
have spent 18 hours with your site. I feel pretty
stupid. Mainly I am perplexed at myself. I thought I was
practicing due diligence on the prove (see, can spell it
;) )all things deal. I guess that's why I looked at your
site and have continued on. The verdict is still
technically undelivered. This is only because I have not
yet gotten to back up your incest claims from an outside
source (not provided or linked by you, no offence). I
have just been going over some of the old co-worker
letters. I was flat out lied to by the pcg (not
officially by ministry) about hwa's tactics on tithe
collecting. If I had seen this typical crap before I
would probably (I hope) been more skeptical. I have had
issues with the pcg, being forbidden to attend services
and the like, but I did not have issues with the bible.
Well, not as many, the she bears were on my list of
things to discuss with the big guy when I got there. But
I see clearly that it is a house of cards (didn't hwa
say something like that?) If one goes it all goes. Hwa
would have to be the kingpin of cards (after 18 hours in
this chair, the least you can expect is that I mangle a
few metaphors ;) ). I am only left with the "how the
f*** did I fall for that?!?!?" feeling. I started
apologizing to friends through e-mail a couple of hours
ago. It's scary, 18 hours ago, I knew the answers to all
things. Now I only know that I am tired. Thanks.
G
*******************************************
Thanks! I no longer *know* all the answers, but oh,
well. Guess I'll just have to be like everybody else. ;)
I'll be ok. I'll leave you gentlemen to your lives! I am
thankful (in a generic sort of way vs. to god) that I
did not have as much invested as you and others. I am
sorry for your losses! But both you and others have done
your good deed by opening my eyes! It is ironic:
Armstrong disproves the bible, the bible disproves
Armstrong and thier teaching is what set me free, "prove
ALL things" ;) If I can ever be of help or buy you
dinner, you know where to find me. I live in Tampa bay,
FL so if your ever over here, e-mail me so I can shake
hands at least!
Have good lives, gents! I should have one, my wife
forgives me! At least I'll have one!
And
on a side note: I can chat with god again. Standing.
Like a man. With a cigarette (and enjoy it!).
Thanks!
G
REPLY:
Regarding herbies incest, see my
FAQ
#35. There are links to
newspaper articles and etc. That is the most you are
going to get. You have add up all the evidence and make
your own conclusion. Get the book Herbert W. Armstrong's
Tangled Web. Herb never denied it. This was all brought
up in his divorce hearings. Most of the men that knew
about it are too corrupt themselves to speak up. Money
is more important than truth to them. The ones that did
speak up were discredited as bitter or crazy. These
crooks were/are very good at this game. Anyhow, if you
can read #35 and still believe it didn't happen, I can't
help you.
Yes, you remember herbie
correctly, he said "if you can prove one part of the
bible is not true, then you can't trust any of it." I
agree with him on that.
Keep reading and
learning. Don't believe anything without proof. That
will keep you out of ALL religions. None of them can
back up what they want you to believe. It is one big
con-game pyramid scheme.
Editor
hi.
no, this isn't another one of those hatemails from
"loving Christians". i'm just a simple Christian, NOT
from the Worldwide Church of God. i've haerd a bit about
them, and they sound like BAD NEWS. there's a load of
them at my uni trying to convert people. but i would not
call that religion Christianity. it made me sad to read
how angry you are, and that you seem to see all
Christians as the same. i'm not into theology and
religion. i believe in the bible. i love Jesus, and i
want to make him happy in everything i do. i try to keep
it that simple. i'm not accountable to any man, and no
one is accountable to me. the wcc sounds way too
judgemental to have anything to do with the God that i
know. i'm not trying to get at you. just want you to
know that not all us "loving Christians" are quite that
bad. no, we're not perfect, but most of try to admit
that we're not, and just enjoy being forgiven. (i am
aware how sappy that sounds, but it's true).
i
can't explain anything. i can't tell you why someone as
beautiful and loving as Jesus is followed by such
greedy, selfish people, or how his words could be
twisted so badly. but i know what i believe. Hope things
work out for you.
Luv,
em.
And
i didn't even quote the bible!
REPLY:
Emma,
I don't have any problem
with someone trying to follow the "teachings" of
"Jesus."
I guess I don't
understand how you can just "believe the bible" without
getting "into theology and religion" but that is your
problem, not mine. How people can "believe" something
with absolutely no proof at all is not exactly a mystery
to me, though, since I did it for 25 years. Why we
did/do it is another matter.
All I can say is that
you are living in a dream world, not the real world. If
that gives you a happy life, what difference does it
make?
Thanks for not quoting
the bible. At least then I will read your message. So
many of them, when I see the quotations, I just delete
the whole message.
You really ought to work
on your capitalization. Here is the rule: The first
letter of the first word in a sentence gets capitalized.
Also the word "I" or the "I" in "I've" or in "I'd," gets
capitalized. I know it is easier to not have to hit that
shift key but it makes your message a lot easier to
read. I feel it is also showing disrespect to the reader
that you don't care enough to at least try to have
proper capitalization. I think Jesus would always
capitalize and punctuate and this is something that you
should strive to follow him in doing.
Editor
Can
you please help me? I am conducting a research project
and came across your web page. it is very well written.
I am trying to find out what ages were the 700 wives and
300 concubines that king soloman had. i want to compare
their ages to current statutory rape laws. If you dont
know king soloman's wives and mistress's ages, then any
guidance on what age biblical women were allowed to
marry and/or have sex would be great.
thank you so much. i wouldnt bother you, but judging
from your web page you seem very smart.
thank you,
ryan
REPLY:
Ryan,
Sorry but I have no
information on this subject.
You might try looking at this page
to see if this helps:
email_051.htm#bibleinsultstowomen
Also try:
men-women-gods-1.htm
Whether or not
happenings in the bible would be statutory rape really
should not be the point. They looked on women as
property not as people. You can do with your property as
you please. You can find plenty in the Bible to back
that up. The god of the bible supported this idea. Or
was it the people who wrote the stories in the bible
that believed it and said that god wanted it that way?
Seems like that is what happened, to me. Its interesting
that the "god" of the bible is no smarter than the
people that wrote the book. Is it likely that knowledge
illiterate primitives who believed in ghosts, burning
god bushes, demons and demonic possession, virgin birth,
levitation, and raising the dead, and who also believed
that a flat earth was the center of the universe, got
anything right?
You are smart too if you
will not believe anything anyone tells you without
proof. Demand proof for everything.
Editor
REPLY:
Dear Editor,
Thank you for your reply. I
will certainly check those web pages. As far as
beliefs go, I am on the extreme fringe. I am a
reformed Jew. Its very easy to be a reformed Jew
b/c no one tells you what to believe...its like a salad
bar, take what you want - and leave the rest.
Since a very young age I discounted
the bible as anything more than an early attempt at
codification of laws. You must remember, that many
of its writings were inscribed before things such as law
enforcement. It was a "scare you into submission"
type thing back then. Today, we have (for the most
part) rational laws. The bible is no longer
needed. Think about it, in the 1600's we were
still burning WITCHES! Can you imagine the
superstitions believed in when some dipshit afflicted
mankind with the bible?
Furthermore, the bible itself is
very easy to dismiss logically. The first few
chapters do that. If it took 6 days to create
everything, how could man be separated from dinosaurs by
millions of years. The normal Christian response
is, b/c a day to G is not a day to us. Well,
if that verse doesn't mean what it says it means,
nothing in the rest of the book can be taken literally.
I know I am rambling, but I like
talking to another logical thinker.
If Jesus did exist, why did he not
tell any one anything useful such as, hey the earth
isn't flat yall. How could Noah have gotten 2
animals from everywhere if he didn't know that certain
species were native to north America...
And he thought the earth was flat.
What, did he motor on down to Australia, pick up a
kangaroo, then head for Antarctica and grab a polar
bear?
If Adam and eve were the only
people, we would all be inbred...becoming more retarded
with a "de-evolution" rather than the known trend toward
evolution of our species.
I could go on and on...
Anyways, my boss assigned the
project to me, I would personally never use the bible
to support some major premise. I am a believer in
science. I do not believe in a heaven or a hell.
I think when we die, we die, and that's it. The
idea of an everlasting soul borders on the ludicrous.
It is a creation for those who cannot and will not
accept death. In my opinion, death is exactly like
prebirth. You do not exist. An everlasting
soul would have had to exist prebirth, but does any one
have a memory of such a thing - NO. Of course, why
would we need a body with eyes and a brain etc. If souls
were able to survive into infinity. Moreover,
without a mind, the soul would not be able to remember
second to second if it were in heaven or hell...so who
really cares.
If you really want to see what the
"gods" of past were, goto www.blackvault.com ---
that web site contains the proof of the wool modern
society has pulled over everyone's eyes. Modern
society loves organized religion. It deters the
masses from seeking the real truth, and keeps those who
care not about man's law in check...also check out a
book (and documentary series) called Chariots of the
Gods by von Daniken (don't know if I got the spelling
right). I only suggest these two things to
you b/c you have obviously moved from one end of the
spectrum to the other. But you should not stop
there... Your website is excellent,
and there is a definite need for it. However, for
your own benefit, I really suggest your now studying
what science has to offer. I hope that you write
me again. Like I said, there is nothing better
than discussing all things with another free thinker.
Ryan
Please consider posting Martin Zender's new book How to
Quit Church Without Quitting God
You
can find it at Amazon.com
I
left the WCG in 1974, quitting church and putting God
"on the shelf". Much has changed in my life in the last
couple of years, for the good. I feel no animosity
toward the WCG organization because as wrong as they
were and even though they wrecked many lives they (we)
are still all of God's children. God has never stopped
loving any of His children and He never will.
My
minister was Gerald Witte and the last time I saw Troy
Witte he was a 'babe in arms'. Please ask Troy to read
this book for an old friend he never knew.
I
have fond memories of Troy's parents and the many times
we "baby sat" Michelle and Jade.
Please do not give out this email address because it is
my place of employment.
I
hope you have a great day!
Humphrey
Shreveport, LA
REPLY:
Humphrey,
YOU
WROTE: God has never stopped loving any of His children
and He never will
REPLY: If we are god's
children, god ought to be in jail for child abuse.
Seriously.
See my
Acts of
God page and show me a
loving god.
It is not that we have
left god, god left us a long time ago and has never
returned. There are many of us ready and willing to
welcome him back whenever he wants to show himself. We
will forgive him for abandoning his children, if he has
a good excuse.
Editor
Someone told me about a book called God's Debris.
I haven't read it, but it sounds like it might reflect
some of your views about God. I don't read a lot
anymore. I did read some of the stuff that you
have on your site, and I was intrigued. I ended up
at your site when I was trying to write my own little
diatribe about Holy Land. These different
religions are battling for these Holy Places that are
just places to me. I'm a Christian, and I never
heard of any Christian Holy places that had significant
meaning for all Christians. But I've often heard
about Israel and Palestine fighting over Holy Land.
Each group says the land belongs to them. Just
recently, the Church of the Nativity, a Christian
church, came under fire (literally) as Israel and
Palestine clash. Now the Vatican is upset that
this Holy place is being fired upon. Wake up
everybody. People are being fired upon. A
building is just a building. Land is just land.
But people are precious. But I digress. I
wanted to tell you how I ended up here. I was
trying to find something about living temples, the
hearts of men (and women). My search criterion was
"god builds his temple," and I ended up at your site.
Just because something cannot be proven doesn't mean
that it isn't real or doesn't exist. For some of
the reasons you mentioned on your site, I do believe
that there is a god. I choose to believe that this
god is the God of the Bible. I can see how the
Bible seems contradictory. And I believe that
there are flaws in the Bible because men/women are all
flawed. The Book has been interpreted and
reinterpreted many times. But Jesus is the Living
Word of God, and I believe that He is living in my heart
and in the hearts of all Christians. I believe
God's Spirit guides me and helps me to sort out truth
from lies. Of course, that makes it easy for me
and anyone who believes the same way as I do to make God
in our own image. I realize that. And there
are times when I have doubts and I question God.
Sometimes I pick up a Bible and read a few verses
relevant to whatever I might be questioning, and I
always come back to Jesus.
Just about a week ago, I looked up the word
"freethinker" in the dictionary. Then I
asked someone if a Christian could be a freethinker.
The person couldn't give me an answer. What do you
think? This past year, I went outside the
boundaries put up by the Christian religions that I have
been involved with in the past, and I feel so free now,
satisfied and sure. Man puts so many limitations
on God. People say that God's love is
unconditional and then they go and put conditions on it.
People say that if an individual isn't saved in this
lifetime that they cannot be saved. People say
that God sent Jesus to save the world, and yet they say
that not everyone in the world will be saved. If
Jesus is God and God sent him to save the world, I
believe that He'll do that. I believe that God is
Love, unconditional Love. You find that hard to
believe because of the suffering that you've seen and
endured. And yet so many who have seen suffering
and have endured suffering still have faith in God.
Are they grabbing at straws? I don't think so.
I'm sorry. I didn't want to get preachy. I
really didn't. You touched me, so I stopped at
your door to leave some thoughts.
If
there is a god, He must be one of two things.
Either He must love every single one of us, or else we
are all simply God's debris and He really doesn't care
about any of us. I believe the former. We
are all so unique and individualized that only a master
craftsman could have created us. And I don't
believe that such a craftsman who pays such close
attention to detail would just toss His creation aside.
There may be all kinds of banter about "if God really
loves us, then why..." I don't have the answers,
at least not all of them.
Some Christians I know think that I'm a little deluded
lately because I've strayed from orthodox Christian
beliefs, and some of the non-Christian people I know
think that I'm naïve and gullible. I am naïve, but
I'm not gullible although I have been in the past.
These things I know - Any self-respecting God, any God
in His right mind, any God who is Love, would not want
people to be forced to believe in Him; He wouldn't want
people to come to Him out of fear of Hell; He wouldn't
want people to believe in Him just because someone said
to do so; He wouldn't want people to just "take it on
faith." Love has to be the reason. Maybe
your unknown god and my God aren't so different.
You've known Love. You've loved. Where did
it come from? Keep asking questions. Don't
stop just because you think that you have the answers.
I've felt the pain and grief of suffering and loss, but
I would endure it again for Love. I wouldn't want
to go back in time and never know the objects of my love
that have been taken away. I'm glad that I had
what I had. And I hope that I've given something
somewhere along the line. That's about all I want
to say.
You
may do whatever you want with my words. You may
respond if you feel it necessary. You can ask me
questions, but I may not have answers. You know
what you know and you believe what you believe.
Same with me. You may cite Bible verses to
contradict my beliefs. I'm sure such Bible verses
exist. I hope that your pain and suffering that
began a long time ago has diminished, and I hope you
remember and cherish the love that you once knew that
never goes away. And I hope that you know love
now.
I
believe that finding your site is a part of my Christian
journey, and I thank you.
Sincerely,
Rhonda
REPLY:
To answer one of your
questions: No you cannot be a Freethinker and a
Christian. A Christian must accept the Bible as the
word of god, an absolute authority, and try to live by
every word of the bible. A Freethinker would find this
illogical.
free.think.er
\-"thin-ker\
n : one who forms opinions on the
basis of reason independently of authority; esp
: one who doubts or denies religious
dogma - free.think.ing n or adj
Just keep thinking and
proving what you believe. If you keep doing that, you
will end up with true freedom. This is a process that
will not happen overnight or even a week, month or
year. It all depends on how serious you are about
determining what you really can believe. Decide
whether you believe just because you "want" to believe
or whether you believe based on something provable.
You must take one step at a time and if you don't take
that next step, you will stay right where you are and
be left behind in a trap.
YOU WROTE:
Just because something cannot be proven doesn't mean
that it isn't real or doesn't exist........ I
choose to believe that this god is the God of the
Bible.
REPLY:
I'm afraid you have
departed from "freethinking" here. Freethinking does
not mean just believing whatever you want to believe.
It means you have to reason things out based on all
the information and facts that you can gather.
Does "god" want you to
believe things without any proof? Does god expect you
to form your religious beliefs on "feelings" and not
facts? Does god expect you to base your religious
beliefs on a book filled with confusion, errors and
downright unscientific information?
I would think that, in
regards to something so important as how to worship
god, there would need to be a little more evidence
than we have as to the correct way that god wants that
done. What if you "feel" it should be one way but it
is really another way? All your life and effort will
have gone for nothing. My main point would be that, if
God really wanted us to worship "him" in a certain
way, he would have made that obvious. If he hasn't
made it obvious, then it isn't very important.
Editor
Hello . . . . . . (I don't know your name - so I can't
properly address you in this email.)
I
just found the painfultruth.com web site. It really hit
home. I have so many things I'd like to ask you - but
you probably wouldn't have time to address them all.
I'll try to be as brief as I can. My heart is aching
with so much more than I'll trouble you with at this
time.
After having been so thoroughly drenched in the
Worldwide Church of God "truth" for much of my life, now
I'm left feeling like I'm (spiritually) Eternally doomed
- so what's the point in living? I looked at the suicide
list, letters and so on - on the painfultruth.com web
site. They all felt too familiar to me. I've struggled
with desires of suicide for longer than I can explain or
understand, even before the the Worldwide Church of God
breakup. I can't find happiness, no matter what I try. I
feel like I "know too much" as my father always tells
me. Yet . . . what do I know? I mean . . . what do I
REALLY know????? Facts - mere outward - facts of
Biblical knowledge, don't coincide with what my heart
tells me about what God must be like. I don't know if I
ever really knew Him, anyway. All I know . . . is
confusion. If the Bible is correct . . . God isn't the
author of that concept in my life. Since I don't have
peace or a sound mind . . . then I must not know God.
Right? But with the total (brainwashing) experiences I
have to base my knowledge on - how could I ever un-do
this damage?
How
can I find "hope" again? Without hope, life seems
pointless. I go through the motions of merely existing .
. . feeling like my physical life will only be followed
by a flaming end of eternal death. I can't seem to find
anyone to talk to who understands - or find anyone I
trust to help me. I want to die far more than I want to
live - but I can't do that to my 2 children. I have
always told myself, as soon as they graduated and moved
out of the house . . . then I'd do it. Yet, I seem to
find they still need me at times. Yes - I still need my
physical parents at times, too even though they filled
my mind with total confusion.
Without hope . . . how can I live? If I can't "die" . .
. how may my life be more than an agonizing existence?
I've read several articles on the web site - and they
all ring true to me . . . yet how do we ever find peace
after the Worldwide Church of God legacy in our lives? I
hope (I can't even say "pray" anymore) that you can
please point me in some direction. You see - I can't
even talk to God, anymore. I feel like Eve - hiding in
the garden, afraid of God's wrath and I don't even have
an "Adam" to cling to, anymore. If you know ANYONE that
would be willing to have an email correspondence to help
me . . . I beg you to send my letter to them. I feel as
if I've sunk down into very dense quick sand - just
about up to my nose . . . and I don't have much energy
left to struggle with. If you could please drop me a
line to hang on to . . . I would sincerely appreciate
it.
I
am ever grateful for any small ray of hope you may give
me. Like a "dog under the table" . . . I beg for crumbs.
Barbara
I've been reading your website this evening out of
concern for a friend of mine in the worldwide church of
god. I just wanted to let you know in a much smaller
scale but with the same emotional pain, I've gone
through what you've gone through in middle school.
I'd
like to discuss some of my ideas with you because I
found it so interesting seeing you've gone so far down a
road that I feel, I have traveled. I give you these
ideas with no strings, and as such you may reject them
completely, or as I like to say... your mileage may
vary.
Mostly I wanted to write this is because of your
brilliantly illuminated point... if there was a God, why
would He require us to shut down our brains which is
clearly what make us unique to everything else out
there.
So
anyway here I go, I hope you find this at least
interesting. I will try to be brief but, when we use
words as measuring sticks, I find that our words are not
that accurate after all, so I must measure and
re-measure and hope, that you build the same idea in
your head as my own.
Fact, belief, I believe these two words are wrong by
definition. Its difficult to explain because in
explaining why I think fact and belief are the same
thing, I have to say, these ideas I believe, but please
be patient, I have not had this conversation many times
because a lot of people are not very open minded about
these two words that seem to be the foundation of
understanding the world and I pretty much threaten that.
I
can say, it is a fact the sun will rise tomorrow. I can
say it is a fact the sky is blue. These are simple
things. However, at the risk of sounding crazy, I
protest. I may be able to come up with a lavish paranoid
story about how the son will not rise tomorrow, that you
and I are in some type of infinite loop that will never
complete and will be communicating though this email
till the end of time and tomorrow will never arrive.
Crazy? You bet. Possible? Well.... no not really. Well
mayyyybe... but the possibility is so small... we ignore
that. Or we don't talk about it because its not
practical.
The
point is, there are really no facts. You could say we
believe the sky is blue, we believe the sun will rise
tomorrow. Still, saying that does not accurately
communicate the truth. There are degrees of probability
for everything. Over 99% chance the sun will rise
tomorrow.
So
suffice to say fact means really high probability and
belief means .... something else....
I've heard a profound statement "proof denies faith."
How many times are you told that you believe in
something when you accept it without seeing any proof of
it.
WHAT? I always said "that is something I will never do."
It seems diametrically opposed to Science itself. People
are suppose embrace religion because their soul tells
them its right.
This is what disturbs me the most. Your statement that
why would God want you to turn off that which makes us
unique to everything else science has found in the
universe. Well that's belief for you. Saying I believe
something means I'm afraid to really think about this, I
just accept it as "fact".
So
if fact is something that is probably true.... belief
means I'm afraid to think about it, how do I accurately
communicate about these things to anyone? Do I have to
make a new language? New words? I don't know yet I'm
still working on this part. Am I to say "my evidence
suggests this is probably true" and sound like Spock for
cryin out loud? I'm not here to reprogram the masses,
I'm not wired for it, its definitely not MY job to do
that.
It
takes a certain amount of guts to reject mainstream
religion in bulk yet as a teenager that's exactly what I
had to do to stay sane. I wont go into detail why or how
otherwise I could be typing all night BUT, I'll tell you
where I ended up after feeling very isolated very alone
and without direction and reason in the universe.
I
read in Wired magazine a few years ago that memory is
the simple, yet hopelessly inaccurate process of
eliminating possibilities in your mind. If you learn a
phone number of your friend you in a way forget the
other million other possibilities it could be. So
knowing everything, is a lot like forgetting everything.
Weird. That took about six months to sink in. Where that
leads me is if there is an ideal, like god, everywhere
everything, you would kind of become that when you die.
However if that is true... its got nothing to do with a
book that was never written in English to begin with and
has been translated and perverted a million times over
and over. It just has to do with becoming a part of the
ultimate truth of the universe instead of being a tiny
isolated world observing the real world through tiny
flawed pinholes.
This way there is no hurt, there is no guilt. There is
just the universe and the rules that always were and
always will be. We are an inseparable part of this
universe. We experience pain, and all the other emotions
that were created with us. As we climb the evolutional
ladder there are many truths we discovered that at first
scared us, but as history teaches us, we can only go
foreword, as there is only more pain following the
mistakes of the past and ignoring the evidence of the
present.
I
admire your website, although I could never make one of
my own. I've tried to confront the people that ridiculed
me in school and they just don't get it. This many years
later they don't remember the pain they caused me or
even remember the act of making the accusations they
did, that caused me to "loose faith". They are all
trying their best to complete their lives and me giving
them a hard time is not going to stop more kids from
going through what I went through. So I am pursuing
other ideas. I work on computers, and help people every
day complete their work faster. I can't force my
religion or lack thereof on anyone, but I do talk to
anyone that I think will listen. My goal is not to
change someone's mind, but to try to accurately
communicate the truth as I have seen it, to those who
would like to listen. (shouldn't that be an oxymoron,
"the truth as I have seen it"? Isint the truth the same
for everyone?)
Also in a way, if I stay angry at these people, they in
a way 'win'. Forgiveness is an important thing... I
still believe in it without religion. There's a long
story behind that if you want to hear it. I don't think
its appropriate for all situations, some things can't be
forgiven. Your forgiveness is your own option. In my
situation it is an option. Even if you did forgive the
people that manipulated you, you and your site still are
doing a service to a lot of people clearly... including
me.
I'd
like to say your wife is watching you now and is happy.
You and I know that is not the whole truth. However if
she forgot everything, and in turn learned everything,
she has become part of the universe... not a separate
part like we are. Instead of looking at the universe
thorough her eyes, she is the universe. And in that way
she does not have to worry about the burden of a beating
heart or surging lungs, eating sleeping. I wish you were
lucky enough to spend more time with her. If forgetting
everything is like knowing everything, she knows the
duration of your life, and in that way we could say she
is and has and will watch over you. It seems to me her
suffering and death profoundly effects you to this day.
I
hope these words make you happier in life. If they don't
then there is of course no need to reply, just delete
this message, I'm more than happy being a faded memory
too. Because hey, I gave it a shot.
If
you got this far I'd like to remain anonymous. If you
care to quote anything here feel free as long as I'm
anonymous. For reasons stated earlier, I'd rather not
risk my friend finding my name on your site. He is a
good man from what I know and although he is in this
church, I see no evidence that he is an evil person. I
am very concerned about his contributions to this
organization however.
Anyway that's what I get for trying to be brief. Typing
110 words per minute can get you in trouble.
I
wish you the best.
Take care,
D
REPLY:
D,
Thanks for your message. Wish I could type as fast as
you, I could save a lot of time. I keep having to hit
the backspace key too much. My fingers do fine its just
that my brain tells them to spell things wrong. You have
certainly figured things out and you are lucky to have
done it from such an early age regardless of your
friends not understanding you.
I really do not have a
lot of pain regarding my first wife. I've been in my
second marriage for 27 years now and have a very good
life. People think that I am bitter and just doing the
PT site for revenge. Not the case. It is a public
service. Probably the best thing I will ever do in my
life. It is helping people to understand and to think.
It is freeing people from slavery and from guilt. They
can then pass this understanding on to their children
and then they can be free too. I can't ask for anything
better than that.
I don't feel I have to
give blanket forgiveness to any of these abusers. They
are still misleading people for their own profit, they
have not repented for all their evil. My not forgiving
them does not affect me. I think this
bitterness/forgiveness thing is really blown out of
proportion, probably taking it from the bible. So,
someone did something bad to me and doesn't apologize,
that doesn't affect me. Just makes me all the more aware
that there are many people and organizations that will
be more than happy to screw me.
Regarding your "become
part of the universe" theory, I'm afraid that does not
give me a lot of comfort. I already have that. My atoms
are here. They aren't going away. I have to be able to
have a memory and to think, otherwise why bother?
Regarding your friend in
the WCG, he is probably no worse off there than in any
other church.
Editor
Dear painful truth editor, my name is Steven I was in
the church for 16 years in Manhattan Westchester NY. I
came in the church when I was 19 years old and have many
many many tales to tell. I've given thousands of
thousands of dollars, lost the best years of my life
being deceived, made to live in fear and lost many years
with my family. Please don't print my full name as of
yet. I'm in the process of making up a biography of my
history in the church to submit someday. I started
reading your site after 911, just to see how the people
in the church were interpreting that event. I was
astounded to find out all the different information that
you had available. Too bad I didn't have all this
information when I was 19 years old. I am now 46. It has
been very very intriguing to read all the information.
It's almost beyond believe. I haven't gotten the courage
yet to confront the ministers of the past. Because in my
trauma, I don't know what bullshit excuses they're going
to try to give me, maybe they going to make me feel
crazy. That's why I would like some answers if you have
the time.
QUESTIONS TO THE PAINFUL TRUTH EDITOR
1. How many of the ministers to you really think didn't
really believe in God and just did it for other reasons?
2. Do think Mr. Armstrong really didn't believe in God
or that he was just crazy and somehow thought he had the
right to do what he did?
3. Do you think that we will ever get our money back?
4. How do you get back your ability to have a really
strong opinion when having a strong opinion is what got
you in trouble with the church in the first place?
When you look throughout history, many many times there
was only a few people who were really correct. Galileo,
Copernicus, Columbus, people who invented democracy in
ancient Greece when most of the world were led by Kings.
Sometimes I feel that I can see things that most of the
world can't see. Not in a crazy way. Sometimes the
masses are like sheep if not all the time. Most people
are adaptive and will adapt to whatever a leader says. I
guess what I'm asking is how do you get back your
ability to discern truth from error. Even in the
scientific community there are people that believe that
herbs heal better than many medications, which is
probably true. But the majority will listen to whatever
a doctor told them to do. The statistics show that one
of the major causes of death are doctors and
pharmaceuticals. Don't get me wrong I believe that a
person should do anything to get better. I DO BELIEVE IN
DOCTORS, but not like they were God or something. Most
people think that it would be crazy not to to believe in
a doctor and take natural remedies instead. Many health
sciences prove that many natural remedies actually help
people better than some of the toxic medications that
are out there. I don't think the majority are always
right. And that's what I'm worried about . I don't find
it hard to believe in controversial things. But that was
my downfall in the church. I guess that was one of the
most horrible things that the church did to us . Make us
doubt are very mind itself ! HOW DO I KNOW THAT ANYTHING
IS TRUE NOW? Would like your comments if you have the
time.
If the answer is in your facts just tell me so. Thank
you very much.
REPLY:
YOU WROTE:
1. How many of the ministers
to you really think didn't really believe in God and
just did it for other reasons?
REPLY:
Hard for me
to say since I only really knew maybe 10 of them. I
think they all "believed" in a god, its just that that
god is so evil. I think, whenever they ran into some
inconsistency, they would just say that "this is god's
church, god is in charge" and move on. In other words,
they were no more smarter than the dumb sheep that they
were leading. I don't think that most of these men
were/are deep thinkers. I think most of them just
look at their position as a job. Maybe they feel like
they are helping people by "interpreting" the bible for
them. I would say that those that were higher up on the
food chain had to know more of the inside information.
Those are the guys that are most likely corrupt. I think
you could tell those that really cared about the people.
They were probably just as deluded as the rest of us.
Those that appeared aloof and superior to the
congregation, were probably just in it for the power and
easy money.
YOU WROTE:
2. Do think Mr. Armstrong
really didn't believe in God or that he was just crazy
and somehow thought he had the right to do what he did?
REPLY:
I think that
he was one of the ones who appeared aloof and superior
to the congregation and was probably just in it for the
power and easy money. I guess you would have to
see him in private to know for sure. I think the story
of him going dancing with his daughter on a Friday night
and not being afraid of anyone finding him out because
he knew that the members would all be home keeping the
Sabbath, tells a lot. Look at how he would change "god's
laws" when he needed to in order to make his own life
easier. Doctors, divorce, makeup, all "new truth"
revealed just when herbie needed god to change things
for him.
YOU WROTE:
3. Do you think that we will
ever get our money back?
REPLY:
Only if there
is a god the cares about mankind and justice.
YOU WROTE:
4. How do you get back your
ability to have a really strong opinion when having a
strong opinion is what got you in trouble with the
church in the first place?
REPLY:
Base your
opinions on things you can prove and that you have
logically thought through. One of our big problems was
that we convinced ourselves that we had "proven the
bible was god's word" when we really had just accepted
that it was. If you had really sought to prove, one way
or another, objectively, whether or not it is a book
inspired by a perfect god, you could only prove that it
couldn't possibly be. Once we made this one decision, we
were hooked for good.
YOU WROTE:
HOW DO I KNOW THAT ANYTHING IS TRUE
NOW?
REPLY:
You don't. So
it is up to you to sort through to figure out what is
true and what isn't. You add up all the facts and make
your decision. You just have to remember that there are
probably as many people willing to lie to you to make a
profit as there are those that are telling you the
truth. Maybe more. There are also those that can be
completely convinced of what they are telling you but
also be completely wrong. They are NOT lying to you but
what they tell you should not be believed. You have to
educate yourself so that you can make wise decisions.
Take heart.
Your life is going to be so much better now that you can
leave all the guilt and slavery behind. Make the most of
the life you have left, free of the scum of the earth,
bloodsucking, ministerial types. Unfortunately,
what they do, in the name of god, is perfectly legal in
this country.
Editor
Regarding the
Ministerial Disfellowship
List:
I
really don't give a damn when it gets right down to it,
but the two who gave me and my wife so much trouble, and
got us tossed out by Denny Luker and the great Vic (2
weeks before they quit) were:
Jim
Turner (Alaska....didn't believe in therapy like EMDR or
anything like it)
Ted
Hurlofson (San Luis Obispo, who did Jim's dirty work for
him getting us tossed...and was a notorious jerk anyway,
leaving a trail of "stories" everywhere he went)
They should definitely be on your list
Mike Pickett aka Gruffy
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