... or is that dueling (with one l)? Again, the wonders of English in two versions, American and the rest of us; Mr Webster and Mr Johnson. Anyone want to flip a coin? But I digress.
Bill Hohmann's name is familiar to many past and present WCG members. Bill posts regularly on a variety of boards, and if memory serves me has commented on the COGs at least once on national television in the US. Bill is no mean expositor when it comes to the Bible, and working from a conservative, evangelical perspective he is a talented "deconstructor" of hardline Herbalism.
Recently Bill took the bit between his teeth once again and took apart Dave Pack's Sabbath booklet. Indeed, he's done so in such detail that I suspect his critique is longer than the Pack original. The first two chapters appear online at AW Extra and the rest will follow soon.
Bear in mind that Pack's writing is a rewrite (one might even use the term rePACKaging) of the Herbal originals. Anyone who still thinks Which Day is the Christian Sabbath? is a bullet-proof treatise of Biblical truth might well learn a thing or two as well.
But, as Bill himself rightly warned me when he sent the document, it's a long one, so be prepared to buy in groceries.
52 comments:
Thanks for posting this. It's quite interesting. For me, leaving, the sabbath doctrine was a big sticking point. My eyes were opened one Saturday when the minister read the Hebrews 4 passage totally and absolutely out of context (to justify Sabbath keeping). When I challenged my attendance-compelling parent on this issue, he said that even though it was taken grossly out of context, the point made was correct; scripture didn't have to be read honestly to justify church doctrine as long as the doctrine was right. That was a HUGE clue to me that all was not as it seemed. As time went on I found other similar passages that simply didn't say what they were claimed to say, and the horse was out of the barn.
Bill claims that the 10 commandment law was NOT in force before Sinai. REALLY!?????...
Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, MY COMMANDMENTS, my statutes, and my laws.
There is scriptural evidence for every one of the ten commandments before Sinai.
I further challenge any writer to show me in scripture any righteous man flagrantly disregarding the Sabbath, whether in the old testament or new testament.
One cannot find a word in the entire Bible denigrating the keeping of the Sabbath.
A further insight that is worth pondering, is that the persecution of the early church is never because of "Sabbath Breaking". If anything, this would have been a rallying call for the persecutors of the Church from those of the Jewish persuasion. No, the Church suffered persecution for other reasons from the Jews, but Sabbath breaking isnt one of them.
An interesting aside is that some feel that in order to distance themselves from the dysfunction of the Armstrong system of hierarchy that they must dismiss ALL of its doctrines as well. This is not well thought out thinking.
Sabbatarianism does not necessarily have to translate into authoritarian, cult like abusive systems. The Seventh Day Baptists, COG 7th Day, and many Adventist groups are healthy , well adjusted groups. There are independent COG splinter groups that are enlightened and progressive.
I find an interesting cross section of readers of AW. AW readers curiously enough fall into 7 groups...
1) Those who are HWA advocates and believe in its continuence ala 1963.
2) Those who are HWA advocates and believe in its continuence ala 1985.
3) Those who are non-HWA advocates, but primarily believe in Sabbatarianism, and the historic core doctrines of the COG movement going back several centuries.
4) Those who have abandoned COG doctrines in favor of more Protestant ones, but who still believe in God.
5) Those that reject Christianity, but are open to the idea of a deity/creator
6) Those that are agnostics, and confess to not knowing for sure about anything.
7)Those that are faithful atheists , and are hard core against the idea of there being a God.
Strange bedfellows us readers of AW! BTW- Count me as a #3'r above!
Luv
Lussenheide
Lussenheide wrote:Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, MY COMMANDMENTS, my statutes, and my laws.<<
Perhaps the laws and commandments were of another time...before the 10 Big Ones. In the NT Jesus abolishes the law (10 Big Ones) as "He" was the one who the law pointed to. So being God he could do this. Somewhere it is written "I change not." Well my response is "Yes YOU DO!"
That is the problem with trying to make 66 books say the same thing. Nothing ever jives...
Kscribe.
Yeah for Bill Lussenheide.
Normally I do not agree with what Bill writes, now I understand his context and appreciate his candor on the Sabbath Question.
ANOTHER Anon Answered ..
"Perhaps the laws and commandments were of another time..."
One has to ask, who wrote that Abraham kept the commandments? It was Moses, to whom the commandments were given. I think he would know what he was talking about. Additionally, all of the Sabbatarians through out history mention the story of the manna falling on all days besides the Sabbath day prior to the Law being given.
ANON in USA
To Alan,
Regarding Hebrews 4 and there yet remainging a Sabbath rest to the people of God. Wonder which twisted version the pastor was using for this and did the pastor eventually give up the Sabbath?
There is no indication at all that God said the seventh day was done away. He said there is yet a rest. Do you know that that scripture is an obvious reference back to the original Sabbath day? Who was the YHWH of the OT? Most would say it was Jesus, the LORD or Lord in the NT, of the Sabbath. The Sabbath was MADE FOR MAN.....whom did God create all things through? Through Jesus Christ. All things were made by him...(John 1:3).
He was the one who made the Sabbath day for man.
Did you know that in the book of Genesis all of the other days of 'creation week' have a beginning and an end with one exception, that is the Sabbath.
The Sabbath, according to some scholars, was never intended to end. So maybe that rest from our sin has been with us as an opportunity since the day after the first man was created. Man had the opportunity to enter into that rest.
Yes, there is yet a day, now in our spiritual walk with Christ, every Sabbath day, when we picture the creation, rest and worship and commune with the Great God of all creation and yet in the future, when all of humanity will rest from the woeful existence and finally and eternally enter into that rest.
C'mon, lussenheide, be precise: "MY TEN COMMANDMENTS..."
Oh, wait, that's not what it says. Wait -- is it even what it implies? Aw, who cares, as long as it supports my shouting over someone else's.
And then, the straw man trump card: "One cannot find a word in the entire Bible denigrating the keeping of the Sabbath."
Understanding that modern society -- a bit advanced beyond the agrarian -- would cease to function if everyone was "keeping the Sabbath" as lussenheide might prescribe, I think I will launch into an Armstrongian study to prove him WRONG and prove BEYOND THE SHADOW OF A DOUBT that the Bible PLAINLY SAYS, somewhere, "Thou shalt DENIGRATE the Sabbath." I might even spend a whole six months at it, after which I should at least be able to settle the debate about eating in restaurants between Holy Day services.
I mean, really....
"In the NT Jesus abolishes the law (10 Big Ones) as "He" was the one who the law pointed to."
amazing...simply amazing....unless this anonymous poster is a protestant...
those with the God given ability to understand (and that is the only way anyone can understand) will never abandon the Sabbath, or any of the other 9 commandments for that matter.
"I might even spend a whole six months at it, after which I should at least be able to settle the debate about eating in restaurants between Holy Day services."
you don't know how I've prayed that God would open their eyes on this issue...(the ministry seems to be the problem, not the rank & file membership)...they make void the very commandment they claim to keep.
Amazing. Just amazing. Bill Hohmann should stick to teaching government employees how to handle firearms, but I digress. One never knows who is shooting whom in whose foot these days.
I'm with our illustrious Mr. Lussenheide who isn't too shabby in the good sense department. The argument that the total ten Commandments are done away by misapplying Scriptures just to rid oneself of a single commandment that the evangelical community New Covenant based Church of God Seventh Day calls a blessing is a lot like killing a mosquito with a Howitzer when it would be better to stick to a mere .357 Magnum for the big shots.
More to the point, as pointed out before, is that our nutty Mr. Pack commits the sin of inconsistency: He teaches that he believes the Bible and obeys the Terrible Ten, even the inconvenient one about remembering the Sabbath to keep it holy and not cause your ox, ass, maidservant, manservant, goslings or restaurant wait persons to do servile labor, whether or not it is for money.
For the simpleton following D.C. Pack, it is a formula for insanity: What to do, what to do? I keep the 10 Commandments by keeping the Sabbath, so how do I explain to my waitress how I am keeping the Sabbath Holy by paying the bill for the Prime Rib? Oh, the wine of it all!
And our illustrious Mr. Hohmann doesn't seem to even be interested in the illogic of the Packatollah's nutty craziness.
He did this same thing while the cultpsycho forum was open, taking over the whole thing with his issues about not keeping the Law and how it was all done away, conveniently ignoring the fact that he wasn't going to mention which law he was talking about. The one the Apostle Paul was talking about was the law of sacrifices, added because of transgressions of the priests, but that is all too inconvenient.
When Bill asked me for Gavin's e-mail address, I already knew what was coming. He and one other in on it practically spammed us until I shut the forum down, since the coxcult project had achieved its goal of ending the CCg in the United States and Canada.
For those of you who buy into this stupidity, I do hope you enjoy your murders, adultery, theft and lying, since these are all done away with as commandments as well. Heck, commit idolatry and blasphemy while you are at it, since Jesus has it all covered for you.
It should be pointed out that many of the well-heeled Protestants embrace the Ten Commandments, if not in spirit, in at least appearance. I do remember what my Lutheran Catechism said about the Sabbath.
And you don't have to be an Herbalist to have a totally different perspective, just as Mr. Lussenheide said. All you have to do is be rebellious and stubborn to refuse to do what Scripture says to do, but claim in your hypocrisy that you love God and Jesus, without spending any real quality time with them.
When you begin to study the history of the Bible, and start to realize where it came from, the whole concept of arguing over doctrine becomes a silly little exercise for small minds which have been focussed on the anthropomorphism of the primitives.
"I might even spend a whole six months at it, after which I should at least be able to settle the debate about eating in restaurants between Holy Day services."
you don't know how I've prayed that God would open their eyes on this issue...(the ministry seems to be the problem, not the rank & file membership)...they make void the very commandment they claim to keep.
Oh, but I do. These come not out but by prayer and fasting.
And not to worry about the Fantastic Four and eating out on the Sabbath and Holydays: They will resolve that just after they fix what is wrong with the calendar. Guarantee it.
Citing the Bible as authority for anything displays about as much wisdom as cutting a "test" fart in a crowded elevator.
The Big Ten are responsible for more carnage in the lives of real people at the hands of the righteous as any docement could ever be. Everyone is just sure they know their eternal and universal truth. Most don't consider the cultic and polytheistic culture they spring from.
1. No other god before ME.
There were many other gods literally believed in and obeyed. This Israelite cultic God is a jealous God and wants no competition from Israel. This God does not say there are no other gods, he just says don't mess with them or you and your kids punished
for three or maybe four generations into the future. This God is unaware of his onlyness. The religion of Abraham is hardly monotheistic, but evolves. God is EL, derived from previous Cannanite concepts and now expanded.
2. No graven images. Not much obeyed in any Hebrew or Christian culture. The Temple was full of them. Moses made bronze ones and Aaron made gold ones. No fear of El here obviously. Megiddo was litered with Israelite gravens when I was there.
3.No name in vain. Not so much cussing as respect and this God of the Mtns had better not hear the name of Baal, Astarte, Her, Him, Molech or Osiris. Remember, I am a jealous god. Not being held "guiltless" was not a good indication of ones longevity and you fall outside of the rule that we don't murder around here. Please, no nuances of meaning between kill and murder! The weak are always murdered by the powerful who define it as killing. Some people need killing is their motto. Our killing still obeys not murdering..uh huh.
4.Keep the Sabbath because I literally made all life in six days and had to rest myself so you will too. Of course, this is not literally true so one has to decide if mythology can be a good reason to enforce a literal behavior. It's certainly no way to categorize people as the chosen or unchosen.
Like Paul who enforces the women's role in church based on the mythology of a literal sin of woman named Eve and the "fact" that "for men don't come from women, but women from men."
Don't get me wrong. I always enjoyed sabbath. Who wouldn't. I enjoyed Sunday as a Presbyterian growing up. But as a tool to judge someone's obedience and spiritual worth to the jealous God, not so much. The implications of enforcing literal behaviors based on mythological events is staggering to an open mind.
5. Honor mom and dad.
Pretty universal admonition here in all cultures. Certainly not invented by the one true God as if others could not come up with this. How this interperated in the OT is interesting as not doing so mean, "then kill the kid and mom has to not cry about it." It's a command in Israel with a big "or else" attached. Well they all are.
6. No murder, killing etc.
This in practical fact meant "each other." Everyone else is fair game if they get in the way of God's chosen people. It also meant nothing to the kings of Israel or Moses, who when bringing the Big Ten down the Mtn to begin with, got pissed at the crowd's thinking, after 40 days missing in action, ordered "every man to slay his neighbor and in that day about 3000 perished." What a guy! "Here, let me put these tablets down and murder a few thousand more of you."
7. No adultery. Mostly for women and Kings that God told if he had only asked, God would have given him more women and stuff. Women were property, that's why you didn't covet them. Adultery might cast doubt on paternity and inheiritances. No adultery, in this culture was not a love thing, it was a legal thing so the wrong kid did not get the wrong daddy's stuff. It was birth control with a kick....death for the woman and no mention of the guy, for the most part. Even in the NT, the woman was caught adultery, not the man so much.
8. No stealing.
Well ok, you can plunder stuff and the young chicks and their booty of those you have been asked to slaughter in my name..amen. Good thing this was no inplace when you guys plundered Egypt on the way out. How much stuff can you drag in to the waste howling wilderness and you'd think we could find some of it stewn along the sands of time.
9 No lying
Unless you are Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob, David, all the prophets and the priests. Other than that, don't do it. In the NT, Peter "kills" Annaias and Sapphira for saying one thing and doing another. This, the man, who said one thing to Jesus (I will never deny you) and did another (fled). Of course, Luke was telling that story in Acts to make fun of Peter who was not on Paul's list of potential church leaders for his denials. No two church members were killed and buried by the church. "Hey Pastor Peter, my parents didn't come home from church, what gives?"
All this to say, the Big Ten were written for a cultic society and translated as meaningful for ours and all humans, which for the most part they are. They weren't born in a vaccum however and we get so used to reading them as moderns, we fail to identify their cultic origins. Besides, the Bible can't agree on whether there were Ten given that day or many many more. Depends on which book you read and what "is" is...:)
10 No coveting wives, oxen, asses (the animal) or stuff.
Good way to live too but throwing women in the mix is cultic and patriarchal to the max. For women, this is a control issue by men. Some women wish they were coveted and cherished by these guys.
In reality, humans love to break the rules. The more rules, the more breakage. Evangelical Christians have the highest rates of divorce, adultery, stealing, lying and eating out on the sabbath :) The Baptist church has the highest rate of minister turn over, due to breakage of the big ten. Pentecostals tend to have the highest rates for adultery and sexual deviance due the emotional nature of those that are Pentecostals. I guess if death was the penalty, we'd have more compliance, but "obey me or I'll kill you," seems rude.
OK, let the rants begin! :)
oh sorry, they already have begun...The idea of "ok then, let's just everyone break them and see where we end up." is corny. Most humans at least know the difference between that which they "should do" and that which they "should not" do. Ranting about Jesus doing it all for us so we don't have to is even more corny. And the idea of "Become perfect (even mature) AS your heavenly Father is perfect (or mature) is meaningless in practical fact. Never met one yet. I"m done.
Wow!
An anonymous poster wrote:
"Did you know that in the book of Genesis all of the other days of 'creation week' have a beginning and an end with one exception, that is the Sabbath."
..and..
"The Sabbath, according to some scholars, was never intended to end."
The Sabbath was never intended to end? Really??! Well then, maybe it ending really stuck in God's craw, and explains His royal crabbiness!
Anyhoo, now that I know that those who don't keep the Big Ten will lead lives of debauchery, I gotta go plan my bloody murder spree, with a dose of lust thrown in for good measure, all to be done on the Sabbath!
Wooooooo Hoooooooo!
Lussenheide forgot one category:
8)Those who try to understand what the Bible is really saying and who do not trust men to tell them what the Bible says. My Bible says, "You observe DAYS, moons, seasons and years. I am afraid for you lest I have labored for you in vain.". MEN tell us that Paul was addressing the issue of pagan worship of days, but is that what our BIBLES tell us? "But NOW, after you have known God(same thread)...Tell me, you who desire to be under the LAW...(same thread)"
"If you, being a Jew(same thread)live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?"
Do you think circumcision was the only issue being addressed as "living like Jews"?
"This only I want to learn from you(same thread): Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the LAW...?"
"Therefore the LAW was our tutor(same thread)to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor."
This is just the short version. :)
Has the sabbath day always existed? Will it still be around for all eternity?
Steve K
But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Sadly, the Kingdom of God has not arrived yet, so apparently we are still in need of a mentor, yes.
Has the sabbath day always existed? Will it still be around for all eternity?
What a stupid question: If there will be no sun or moon in the New Jerusalem, of course there won't be a Sabbath, silly. It's one of those rhetorical questions by the manipulative as a venture into insanity in a venue that's already nuts.
Until then, there's no better time to get to know your creator, if He exists, and to catch up on your sleep. Eating out in restaurants is optional, depending on your belief system, speaking of which:
Bible Advocate:
September 2006.
This was used to counter Bill Hohmann's recycled garbage on the cultpsycho site. It should be noted that he never responded to it. It's always convenient to ignore perspectives that undermine and obliterate your silly position which was dealt with long ago.
Silence is always the best option when you have no answers. Pretending that something doesn't exist is always good too.
Dennis, that was a great summation (as usual) of the Big Ten. And, as usual, your cogent writing style drove home those points with a clarity of thought that few possess here, including myself.
But I'm afraid you are wasting your time here. Looking at some of the recent poll results here indicates to me that the majority of readers here are still trapped inside their own versions of Armstrongology. The sad fact is that many here, while straining at that gnat of pork in their Sabbath faire are also swallowing the camel by employing their waitress on that day in the first place! And they have the audacity to be bringing their lard detectors in the door and yelling at everyone, "OK you unclean patrons. Just observe my holy diet plate here. This is the way to eat and walk ye in it!"
It's just simply amazing to me that supposedly mature adults would still be arguing over or lobbying for an ancient code of conduct, that was intended for the Jews and ONLY the Jews. And which such code of conduct resulted in more bloodshed, murder, mayhem, rape and destruction and theft of property that would make Genghis Khan blush.
But we were all whacked out on Armstrongism at one time. And the Jews must have had quite a few hardy laughs as they watched us silly Goyims parading around on their festival days, pretending we were just like them, only better. We were trying to out-Jew the Jews :)
Anyway, I think your post here would be better read over on the EzineArticles web site. That way, at least some people out there, who have not been made insane by all this Armstrongology, might ponder it and appreciate it.
Best2U
Stinger
The Big Ten are responsible for more carnage in the lives of real people at the hands of the righteous as any docement could ever be.
Folks, we have a new definition of incompetence: An atheistic minister with the entitlement of credibility by virtue of his background teaching that the Ten Commandments are toxic!
Oh, I don't know. I suspect the Koran has done a better job of that. Just because someone uses jeweler's screwdrivers to open a can of tuna doesn't mean that's what the tool was designed for. Using the Commandments, one of which states, "Thou Shalt Not Kill" in order to justify murder just isn't getting into the spirit of things.
Wow! What a deal! Or is that Diehl?
"But after faith has come, we ARE no longer under a tutor."
Becker: "Sadly, the Kingdom of God has not arrived yet, so apparently we are still in need of a mentor, yes."
MY COMMENT: Uh...no. I see you're still hooked on Herbert's reasonings. Read that Scripture: "Therefore the law WAS out tutor." It's funny how Saturday keepers will go to such lengths, even ignoring what the Scriptures say. Tch, tch, tch.
Has the sabbath day always existed? Will it still be around for all eternity?
Becker: "What a stupid question. If there will be no sun or moon in the New Jerusalem, of course there won't be a sabbath, silly..."
MY COMMENT: So, why are the other laws still going to be there, but that one won't? But with Saturday keepers, this one seems to be the end all of being a true Christian, the SIGN that they are God's chillen. Not so stupid, huh?
Becker: "Until then..."
MY COMMENT: "I'm gonna be a true Christian and keep the sabbath. After all, that's my measuring stick of righteousness. Yuk, yuk."
Becker: "There's no better time to get to know your Creator."
MY COMMENT: Becker 1:1.
So, we can't get to know Him on any other day? How stupid!
Becker: "...If He exists, and to cathch up on your sleep."
MY COMMENT: Talk about stupidity! Now come on, this isn't why you Saturday people keep the sabbath. Who are you trying to kid?
Becker: "Eating out in restaurants is optional, depending on your belief system."
MY COMMENT: Don't you mean, depending on your yardstick? You Saturday keepers make me laugh. You all seem to pick and choose what you want to obey out of the Law. You can bend it and you can twist it, depending upon what makes you FEEL good, and what man you're following at the time. I notice that you ignored the first part of my post, which is understandable...when you pick and choose.
Steve K
"An atheistic minister with the entitlement of credibility by virtue of his background teaching that the Ten Commandments are toxic!"
First of all I am not an atheist. Secondly, I am not a minister. Thirdly, my credibility is not connected to my background, it is connected to my present. Forthly, I did not say the Ten commandments were toxic. I said their application to the lives of real people, especially the ones who didn't do what the enforcers said, caused much carnage in the lives of real people.
Emotional outbursts based on unending internalized hurt,pain and anger tends to clog the filters.
and finally, "forthly" is spelled "fourthly" :)
And sabbath is spelled "Saturday". :-)
Steve K
doh! :)
"But I'm afraid you are wasting your time here."
Hi Stinger
I'm practicing taking crap in preparation for "From Pastor to Bastard", "Born Right the First Time" or "Born Again..Again," should it actually come to pass. It's being edited.
I'm a bit beyond having to agonize over eating out on any particular day of the week, sooz the Bible God doesn't get angry and waste me. When I use the term "Bible God" I mean the one portrayed as the epitome of any real God in the Bible. Any resemblance between the Bible God and any real benevolent God is purely coincidental it seems.
I understand the anger in those that post sarcasm, and rebuttals, which is their anger turned sideways. I understand that not one comment by anyone much changes any perspectives of another. I guess I go for a bigger view of things and how it seems (TO ME) to really work in the world of religion. Throwing proof texts back and forth is futile, save for the security of the thrower. Most never will ever question the source or the politics of the Bible, Old or New. It's too scary and not a little disconcerting.
I'm a bit more willing to say "that's a good question," or "I don't know," than I ever again will be saying "This is how it is and this how God wants it."
We can leave that to the experts here I suppose...
Funny how humans can redily admit they know little of how or if spherical standing waves can create the appearance of matter in the world of quantum physics, but when you ask them about God, they seem to know everything is to know about the true mind of God, just ask.
"Sanctified Ignorance is still ignorance." John Spong.
"But I'm afraid you are wasting your time here."
Hi Stinger
I'm practicing taking crap in preparation for "From Pastor to Bastard", "Born Right the First Time" or "Born Again..Again," should it actually come to pass. It's being edited.
I'm a bit beyond having to agonize over eating out on any particular day of the week, sooz the Bible God doesn't get angry and waste me. When I use the term "Bible God" I mean the one portrayed as the epitome of any real God in the Bible. Any resemblance between the Bible God and any real benevolent God is purely coincidental it seems.
I understand the anger in those that post sarcasm, and rebuttals, which is their anger turned sideways. I understand that not one comment by anyone much changes any perspectives of another. I guess I go for a bigger view of things and how it seems (TO ME) to really work in the world of religion. Throwing proof texts back and forth is futile, save for the security of the thrower. Most never will ever question the source or the politics of the Bible, Old or New. It's too scary and not a little disconcerting.
I'm a bit more willing to say "that's a good question," or "I don't know," than I ever again will be saying "This is how it is and this how God wants it."
We can leave that to the experts here I suppose...
Funny how humans can redily admit they know little of how or if spherical standing waves can create the appearance of matter in the world of quantum physics, but when you ask them about God, they seem to know everything is to know about the true mind of God, just ask.
"Sanctified Ignorance is still ignorance." John Spong.
PS, the reason I can respond pretty quickly today is because I am working at the local hospital with internet access and doing the job that I deserve as a looser, SOB, bastard, one of them, lying, duplistic, lazy, tithe-sucking, perk pampered, theo-bastards. Joe Tkach we'd only be able to jobs at WalMart, but I proved him wrong.
Of course, my real new career is therpeutic massage in a chiropractic setting so if I ever rub you guys the wrong way, come see me SCMassageTherapy.com
oops.website down.
"But after faith has come, we ARE no longer under a tutor."
yes, exactly!....once faith has come, we are no longer under the authority of the tutor, but that does not negate anything the tutor taught us...
the tutor no longer has the authority to punish us, but everything it taught is still valid.
and when we come to God in faith, we continue in what the tutor taught us....if we discard what we were taught, we are no longer in faith....
it's all quite simple actually.
SPIRITUAL PERVERTS IGNORE THE SABBATH
The people who like the changes that the Worldwide Church of God is making away from the biblical Sabbath have all sorts of crazy, nonsensical arguments against the Sabbath. They ignore the simple fact that God created it in Old Testament times according to Genesis, and that Jesus observed it in New Testament times and said that it was made for man.
I noticed that the Sabbath-breaking sinners like to talk a lot about what they call "love."
Well, I worked for a number of years at a factory with some rather unsavory characters, and anyone who wants me to do that seven days a week is a PERVERT and is NOT SHOWING ME ENOUGH LOVE.
Paidagogos, wrongly translated "tutor" only because there is no English equivalent, was not a teacher or instructor, but one who accompanied the child to and from the house, wherever the child was to go, including to a teacher. The paidagogos applied punishment when necessary, and also kept him safe. Once the child was of age (mature) the services of the paidagogos were no longer necessary or required.
"Once the child was of age (mature) the services of the paidagogos were no longer necessary or required"
Excellent post. But get ready...while "nanny" might be a better translation...analogizers will say, "well yeah, so what? The Nanny represents the Father's wishes for the kids, when he is not around and trains the children to obey him and house rules. Once daddy comes back, the nanny leaves but the house rules still stick"..in faith of course, thru Jesus and the church, whatever that means....amen.
Paul had his moments with faulty and shoody analogies that he both screwed up and tripped over himself. I love his idea that we KNOW what the OT means by "the promise is to you and your seed." (meaning in fact that God's promise was to Abraham and his decendents). Paul says it obviously means "that seed was Christ" because the OT does not say "seeds." in the plural. I doubt it would be worded in the OT.."the promise is to you and your seeds," to avoid any mistake that "seeds" would have to be said and not "Seed" to avoid one thinking it was singular. The OT verse Paul uses had nothing to do with promises being about Jesus.
Paul may have been endeavoring to sound like a Pharisee, but they don't reason in their training with such imprecision. It's like saying, "feed my sheep" means feed Jesus because if it meant others, it would say "feed my sheeps" after all, sheeps is the plural of sheep, just as seeds is the plural of seed. I bought a bag of bird seed once and it only had one seed in the bag...:)
Paul does even more miraclulous analogy slaugher with Sarah and Haggar, but I spare you.
"Gal 3:16 Paul write concerning the Abraham story:
"Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and his seed.
He does not say, "And to seeds," as refering to many,
but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is Christ"
In reality, the seed referred to in the OT was that of Abraham and had nothing to do with a Jesus four thousand years later.
Paul, as others in the Gospels, may have been using Midrash, which is a way of mining the OT to explain either what one can't or has no realtime information about.
All of Matthew's "and thus it was fulfilleds" are Midrash and overreaching in his case to come up with a story of Jesus...a story he knew precious little about in real time. Like Paul after him, "Matthew" mined the OT for scriptures that could be adjusted to explain Jesus in the New. It does not mean what is said is literally true or was a real event time and space.
If the average fundamentalist or Evangelical minister knew about Midrash and could explain it without a riot to a congregation, it would be a great "aha" moment. Not to worry though...too scary.
Sorry, got off topic
When any thinking minister, who studies well beyond his training, runs up against the need for sameness in literalism...this always follows. It's why all seasoned pastor types have two choices in a practical church setting. 1. Shut up and do the best you can as the Catholic Professor Raymond Brown did in his writing of The Birth and Death of the Messiah, which are classics. or...2. Get fired and adopt the life of vagabond theologian, change careers or teach in seminary.
This article originally ran in the February 3, 1984, issue of Christianity Today and is typical of the dilema...
"As one of the five founders of the Evangelical Theological Society, with a heavy heart I officially request that Dr. Robert Gundry submit his resignation, unless he retracts his position on the historical trustworthiness of Matthew's Gospel."
(Translation: He must unsee what he has seen.)
Thus Roger Nicole, professor of theology at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, brought to a decisive climax a controversy that has been brewing for several years in the 35-year-old society of evangelical scholars.
Standing at a microphone in the packed dining room on the ninth floor of the Spurgeon Harris Building on the campus of the Criswell Center for Biblical Studies in Dallas, Nicole was asking for the resignation of the bald, bespectacled, erudite professor of New Testament and Greek at Santa Barbara's Westmont College."
Tithes and structure trump truth everytime. The fact is that theology needs the liberal to go out on a limb to see if the limb is strong enough not to fall and hurt someone....However, when the limb checker returns..he is usually pushed out of the tree for his trouble. Most churches just allow the limbs to fall, kill or maime a few members and then ask, "what limb?"
(PS..I am not making any analogies about own situation. I am glad to be out of fundamentalism and would have no matter which I had originally fallen under. There is little room in most churches for someone who has come to my conclusions).
How 'bout someone who I don't know call me tonight just to chat. Home alone...it's free... 864-905-5804
Oh and no annon. ones.
I bet no one calls! Been fun, heading home....
"Members: 17"
"Activity: Low activity"
not unimpressed...
Dennis:
Massage therapy? I know this helps a lot of people but isn't it taking "working with your hands" to an extreme.
I heard Herbert W. deliver a sermon in the Field House in Big Sandy at the time of the Rebellion of 1974. A couple of ministers in Shreveport had left the WCG over GTAs activities and other issues. They both took up the work of window washing.
Herbert was disdainful of all of this and he stated blatantly that "it is a shame for an AC graduate to work with his hands." He made no apologies to the many manual laborers in the audience who supported his opulent lifestyle with their meager tithes. It was understood that AC grads were of a different class than the Great Unwashed sitting in the cheap sections towards the back of the Field House. It was all right for that class to do manual labor but not AC grads. I wonder how many blue collar HWA worshippers have any idea that he looked down upon their vocation with contempt?
He seemed to have forgotten that Jesus was a carpenter.
-- Neo
Neo...ha, Yes, I work with hands, elbows, forearm, fingers, knuckles and palms. Hot stones are a nice touch. I like the work. Perhaps it's karma. According to many, I was the cause for all their headaches...now I am the cure for my clients. So see, life is balanced and it all works out.
Sorry, I couldn't help myself. ;)
This is off subject but somewhat
relevant, here is an article form
today's NY Times. The Religious
Right, i.e. the Evangelicals, are
trying to maintain their political
control. They want to continue to
rule over us.
Can they pull it off ... ?
February 25, 2007 NY Times
Christian Right Labors to Find ’08 Candidate
By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK
WASHINGTON, Feb. 24 — A group of influential Christian conservatives and their allies emerged from a private meeting at a Florida resort this month dissatisfied with the Republican presidential field and uncertain where to turn.
The event was a meeting of the Council for National Policy, a secretive club whose few hundred members include Dr. James C. Dobson of Focus on the Family, the Rev. Jerry Falwell of Liberty University and Grover Norquist of Americans for Tax Reform. Although little known outside the conservative movement, the council has become a pivotal stop for Republican presidential primary hopefuls, including George W. Bush on the eve of his 1999 primary campaign.
But in a stark shift from the group’s influence under President Bush, the group risks relegation to the margins. Many of the conservatives who attended the event, held at the beginning of the month at the Ritz-Carlton on Amelia Island, Fla., said they were dismayed at the absence of a champion to carry their banner in the next election...
>>Saac's Son said...
When you begin to study the history of the Bible, and start to realize where it came from, the whole concept of arguing over doctrine becomes a silly little exercise for small minds which have been focussed on the anthropomorphism of the primitives.<<
And that sir is the most logical statement I have read (besides my own mind you) on the subject of "bible keeping" in 21st century!
If people want to follow the writings of someone that claims to be Moses, let them. Hell, Gerald Flurry claims to be "That Pro$it." If people think he is, then let them follow...Baaaa
That black sheep in the family,
Kscribe.
>>>Dennis said...
The Big Ten are responsible for more carnage in the lives of real people at the hands of the righteous as any docement could ever be.
<<<
Dennis, that is priceless! Excellent points, all ten!
Now for those who embrace the 10 big ones, try this the next time your child is rebellious. "Call the elders" together and arrange for the stoning of your child. It is in "THE LAW!" And don't cry mom, it's Gods LAW!
Kscribe.
Gavin,
What we need here is a discussion on who gave the bible its authority.
Let us see how the Herbalist sabbath keepers, (using there superior knowledge and enlightenment) can explain to us all here on this blog how that authority came about! Many seem to think of themselves as scholars. Perhaps it is the P.I.S.S.on H.W.A. syndrome.
Psychotic Influence & Seductive Scholarship (owner & narcissist) Herbert W. Armstrong.
Just a thought..
Kscribe.
Dennis said...
The Big Ten are responsible for more carnage in the lives of real people at the hands of the righteous as any docement could ever be.
<<<
I can't understand that. The 10 commandments does not even contain a word that suggests the "carnage" you are alleging. I sense that you do not even fear God to be so bold as to make that brash statement. God Himself that His commandments are for our good (Deu.5:29]
I suggest that we go back to the "tutor" discussion, which is insructive but which had been misunderstood by some posters here.
What was the role of the "tutor"?
"To bring (or take) unto Christ" [Gal 3.24]
Strong's concordance explains that "tutor" (G3807 paidagōgos pahee-dag-o-gos') means a boy leader, that is, a servant whose
office it was to take the children to school; (by implication [figuratively] a tutor [“paedagogue”]): - instructor, schoolmaster.
Does the 10 commandments "bring" or "take" to us Christ?
The 10 commandments does not "bring" or "take" or "carry" us to Christ. The 10 commandment does not even use the words "Christ" or "Jesus" or "savior".
This "tutor" is the "law ordained by the angels in the hands of a mediator" [Gal.3:19] (whereas the 10 commandments were spoken and written by God Himself) -- that literally forced and brought the Israelites unto Christ [as pictured the sacrificial lamb] with its rigid system of swift punishment.
This system of punishment [2 Cor.3] together with the "earthly sanctuary" and symbolism [figures] and the Levitical priesthood and rituals [Heb.10] is what we are no
longer under of. Not the Sabbath and the 10 commandments, which
Christ Himself said in no uncertain term, we must keep IF we want to "enter into life" [Mat.19:17]. This same Christ proclaims that it is they who keep God's commandments who will be granted right [privilege] to the "tree of life" [Rev.22.14].
Wiil we start believing Christ -- or will we continue to "wrest" Paul's difficult writings to our destructon?
It is amazing how we can never run of out alibis not to obey Him.
Kscribe wrote:
What we need here is a discussion on who gave the bible its authority.
Let us see how the Herbalist sabbath keepers, (using there superior knowledge and enlightenment) can explain to us all here on this blog how that authority came about! Many seem to think of themselves as scholars. Perhaps it is the P.I.S.S.on H.W.A. syndrome.
Psychotic Influence & Seductive Scholarship (owner & narcissist) Herbert W. Armstrong.
This is one step further - reject the authority of the Bible altogether. What absolute freedom!
Let's now worship with Apostle Richard Dawkins in the name of science.
"I can't understand that. The 10 commandments does not even contain a word that suggests the "carnage" you are alleging. I sense that you do not even fear God to be so bold as to make that brash statement. God Himself that His commandments are for our good (Deu.5:29]"
I was speaking of how the penalties for not obeying those who enforce such things are imposed. Have you ever watched a stoning on the internet? Have you ever watched slashing and spearing or beheading? Have you ever seen what those who win do to those who loose, or how those that plunder others do it? It could be any law. The problem is in how those with the power enforce it and the carnage they cause in doing so. The OT is not the cute sunday school story you were led to believe it was. It's God as portrayed by the enforcers in the bible I take exception to.
I just read through the comments here, and at times I thought I was in a "WCG time warp"!
The very second comment had lussenheide exclaiming, "Bill claims that the 10 commandment law was NOT in force before Sinai. REALLY!?????..."
Is lussenheide really that out of touch with interpretations other than HWA's that he finds such an interpretation shocking?
Methinks he must live in a bubble to be shocked by what is not an uncommon interpretation.
Now, for brevity's sake I'll fast foreward to one of the last comments, where "anonymous" says, "It is amazing how we can never run of out alibis not to obey Him."
I'm assuming that "anonymous" meant excuses, instead if alibis, I had a flashback of being in church again, a cult-church where they had all the right answers and interpretations, and were so presumtuous as to cast a cold and damning eye on those who interpreted the Bible differently than them.
Lastly, when lussenheide said, "AW readers curiously enough fall into 7 groups..." it was flashback city!
I can't help but think of a lady who visited(she was still in an ACOG), and said "I just don't know how you can turn your back on God's Truth!"
I find it sad that some are unable to consider that others do try and do the right things, and try their best to understand things, rather than thinking they are simply rejecting God.
And I find it sad how the Armstrongian hubris and blind-sighted cultish condemnation of views "other than" still marches on.
Kerry
"There is scriptural evidence for every one of the ten commandments before Sinai.
I further challenge any writer to show me in scripture any righteous man flagrantly disregarding the Sabbath, whether in the old testament or new testament.
One cannot find a word in the entire Bible denigrating the keeping of the Sabbath."
Ahhh... ya gotta love conditioned responses.
"To Alan,
Regarding Hebrews 4 and there yet remaining a Sabbath rest to the people of God. Wonder which twisted version the pastor was using for this and did the pastor eventually give up the Sabbath?"
The pastor used Hebrews 4 as a proof text that the sabbath is still required. The text clearly doesn't say that. You simply cannot logically read that into the passage.
But again, this is hardly the only incident of misapplying scripture practiced routinely by the WCG. It was the rule rather than the exception, which you see if you take the time to read scriptures other than the suggested proof texts. Unfortunately, the church did an awesome job of planting the fear that I was incapable of reading the Bible without HWA's help. It's still ironic that HWA encouraged everyone to read the Bible for themselves, but once they did, and asked questions, condemned their interpretations.
Dennis:
I admit I have never read any of Karen Armstrong's works. But I have a feeling that she follows the same tact that other scholars in this field follow.
They develop an evolutionary model for the Hebrew concept of God that asserts that El of the Hebrews was the lineal descendant of El of the Canaanites. According to Wikipedia:
"The word El appears in other northwest Semitic languages such as Phoenician and Aramaic."
So with a leap of presumption, Karen Armstrong suddenly has a complete etiology of God. She presumes that a linguistic nexus equates to a conceptual nexus. She can now tell you that the Hebrews adopted their God from the Canaanites and that he was a part of the Canaanite pantheon. In doing this, she errs greatly.
Just because the New Ager in the office next door and I both use the term "god", it does not mean that we are remotely referring to the same thing. An archeaologist from the year 3000 AD would be running down a rabbit trail if he tried to some how develop a theory that my concept of God was derived from the New Ager's concept of God or vice versa. Those of us here and now know that the concepts are almost mutally disjoint.
The only thing that the New Ager and I have in common is that we use the same language. We decidedly do not have the same God -- just the same word for God.
I like this statement. This is a note about one of her books from a favorable webpage: "According to (Karen) Armstrong, the biblical evidence suggests that the leader Moses convinced his people El and Yahweh were one and the same." That is a really odd way of stating it. Of course, Moses believed and taught they were one and the same. It is Karen Armstrong who assumes they were different. By making her arguments to be "truth", she manages to characterize Moses as religious con artist. Under the covers this is just our old friend "Begging the Question." The argument goes:
1) Karen is right.
2) Therefore, Moses is wrong.
3) Therefore, Karen is right.
-- Neo
Neo,
Do you believe, as do fundamentalists and theologically conservative Christians, that Moses was the person who wrote the Pentateuch? Or do you agree with the many scholars who see the Pentateuch, and the whole Hebrew Bible, as having been written/compiled quite late, perhaps totally in the post-exilic period? Do you agree with scholars who view the Tanakh as multi-sourced and utilizing sometimes quite different perspectives? Respectfully wondering.
Neo,
Do you believe, as do fundamentalists and theologically conservative Christians, that Moses was the person who wrote the Pentateuch? Or do you agree with the many scholars who see the Pentateuch, and the whole Hebrew Bible, as having been written/compiled quite late, perhaps totally in the post-exilic period? Do you agree with scholars who view the Tanakh as multi-sourced and utilizing sometimes quite different perspectives? Respectfully wondering.
Sorry about the duplicated post!
Now that L. McCulluough and C. Kilouh were seen looking at land in Dallas to buy for a new headquarters and college for the United Church, their members in Texas will likely be excited to have the United HQ in their state.
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