It's interesting to compare Peter Leschak's impressions with Greg Doudna's Showdown at Big Sandy
. In many ways they seem to have seen things alike. In fact Greg refers to and quotes Leschak in a couple of places. When it comes to the role of Howard Clark (pictured in 1964) they also agree. In Bumming With the Furies
Peter Leschak writes:But early in 1972, a minister named Howard Clark was transferred to Texas from the headquarters campus in Pasadena, California. He was something of a legend in the WCG. While serving with the Marine Corps in Korea, he was severely wounded and subsequently paralyzed. He received one hundred percent disability from the Veteran’s Administration and was confined to a wheelchair. But then “God called him into the Work,” as we liked to say, and after being anointed with oil and prayed over by a WCG minister, he was healed – he was able to walk. He attended AC and rose through the ranks, demonstrating a remarkable talent for preaching and public speaking.
He was loud and irreverent, articulate and keenly intelligent. One had to wonder why he was allowed to stay; he did little obeisance to sacred cows.
The presence of such a renegade was a revelation, but Clark offered us more than his own puzzling existence. That summer when life on campus slowed and many students and faculty were gone, he initiated what he called “waffle shops.” These were informal evening gatherings advertised by word of mouth. There might be poetry readings (of all things!), a film, Bible study, and of course listening to Clark as he “waffled” – extemporaneously expounding on just about everything. To cadets in the army of God, regimented in body and spirit, this could be shocking.
During one waffle shop, Clark quipped: “If Jesus Christ was a student at AC today, we’d kick him out.” We had strayed too far from the original precepts to be tolerated by the original teacher. It was that heretical thought, and a thinly veiled reference to some WCG ministers as “con artists” that spurred the “gestapo” into action. A senior who had attended the gathering, a leading upper-classman, went to the Dean of Students (Ron) Kelly the next day and reported what distressing things he had heard. The waffle shops were officially banned.
Unlike most of the faculty, Clark lived off campus, away from the bosom of the institution. Students began filtering out there, alone or in small groups, to sit in his office and listen. Rumors of a “heretical underground,” a “free thought movement,” began to circulate. People felt threatened. But Clark was not attempting to undermine AC. His main point was that we were all individuals before God and that we must truly cultivate independent minds. But that was not necessarily good for the cohesiveness of the army.
In the meantime, we were buying books-under the counter. Clark recommended The Faith of a Heretic by Walter Kaufman, and one of the students who worked at the college commissary ordered a few copies and kept them discreetly out of sight, far from the Louis L’Amour westerns. If someone specially requested a copy, he would slip it into a bag and quietly had it over. The eyes of the true believers were everywhere; this was not an acceptable book for God’s students.
On page twenty-two, Kaufman had written: “The aim of a liberal arts education is not to turn out ideal dinner guests who can talk with assurance about practically everything, but people who will not be taken in by men who speak about all things with an air of finality. The goal is not to train future authorities, but men who are not cowed by those who claim to be authorities".
These were not words that Chapman would have us memorize, especially since one of the conceits of AC was that it was providing us with a liberal arts education. My friend Gerry, who was on the staff of the college newspaper, once neglected to perform some small task that the faculty advisor expected him to have done.
“I thought (so and so) was going to do it,” Gerry told the man. “That’s your problem,” replied the journalism instructor/ordained minister, “you don’t think!” He then told Gerry that he wanted him to be a robot, and, to demonstrate; he walked stiffly and jerkily around the room. It was a sincere performance, devoid of irony.
Yes, Virginia, there were good ministers. But not nearly enough.
45 comments:
Some day, those good "ministers" will insist that they are good farmers and always have been farmers. I was in the COG from 69 to 95, but never met a "good minister".
Steve K
I remember Howard Clark. He gave a sermon on compassion in our area when I was about 15. I still remember most of it today. Years later I cited that sermon in a club speech on the subject and got slammed by D.R. Sandoval, who either stupidly or deliberately misunderstood every point I was trying to make. Now I wonder if it was the subject matter or the reference to Clark that caused his negative reaction.
John B
I hate to be the one to operate the damper but I would like to temper this. I was on the Big Sandy campus when this happened. I had a friend who was much involved with this. In fact, I went with him once to Howard Clark's place in the country north of Gladewater.
I did not delve too deeply into this because I was 1-W. I could have been terminated with prejudice and could have seen prison time. Also, at the time, I was an Armstrongite traditionalist.
Some observations:
1) This on-campus movement seemed to be taking place within the boundaries of Armstrongism. It represented, if I am not mistaken simply a liberalization of Armstrongism.
2) Some of these kids were sincere and some of them would have rebelled against the fact that the sky is blue.
3) Howard Clark knew as much as anybody else when he was treading on thin ice.
4) This movement was primarily focused not on theologically heavy topics like the Nature of God but on such topics as whether or not the policy on Divorce and Remarriage was applied correctly and whether or not one should tithe.
5) This movement was energized by a sense of betrayal that students and others felt over GTAs dalliances.
6) Polarization happened quickly and sharply. My friend was just as unreasonable in his new found convictions as were the committed Armstrongites. The opportunity for reasonable debate never emerged, as one would expect. But neither side wanted it.
7) To my knowledge, nobody ended up being a Christian because of this.
But it is an outstanding example of how the Armstronite polity reacted to a challenge. It could have been a chapter out of a book on the old Soviet Union.
-- Neo
Well done,chaps, sock it to 'em.
It was a system of stooges,party hacks,yes men,boot-lickers etc.
Petty potentates had that Ambassador swagger,that certain look which they practised before a mirror every morning.Look at official photos in the Envoy,observing the puffed-out chests and sanctimonious air.
Was not the family name "FORTINBRAS"?.GTA would have found that somewhat impregnable.
On that note I bid youall good day.
A Nonny Mouse
I have no idea what might have transpired with Mr. Clark (he's one of the few AC/WCG officials/ministers whom I feel good about calling "Mr.") in the 1970's, but he was my speech professor, and Ambassador Club faculty adviser at or about 1966-68.
First, he was not annointed by any old generic "minister". Legend had it that he had been annointed by Dick Armstrong, personally, as one of the final acts before the car crash that took Dick's life.
I agree with all that has been said about Howard Clark's intellect and integrity. I believe that during the years in which I was in contact with him he was committed to Armstrongism, and did reach deeply within himself to find effective thoughts and words, as a minister, to further the Armstrongist agenda. His effectiveness in this may have thrown his superiors off the track, and may have deluded them into thinking that they owned him as a commodity. That was a mistake. Howard Clark was a man of deep passion and in the final analysis, nobody could really own him. He was most definitely a primary asset of the WCG during that era.
I was quite amazed to learn within the past several years that some of my fellow students, although they had left the WCG decades ago, had contact with Mr. Clark right up until the time of his death! I'm convinced that no matter what College or University he had been part of, he would have been recognized as having been one of the more effective educators, and loved by the students. What I'm saying here is that he transcended Ambassador College! In fact he may have been the only teacher/professor who did this!
I find myself regretting the fact that I was not one of those who kept in touch with this very special individual. Perhaps it's one instance of having thrown out the baby with the bathwater.
BB
Good ministers? Ozzie Englebart was one of those. He was a true believer with a heart of gold. He died some years ago, but he was the only one I can still respect. The rest of them were asshats! Think Camilo P. Reyes!
Kscribe.
http://www.hwarmstrong.com/xoom/hallofshame/reyes_camilo_p.htm
For the home page to the "HALL OF SHAME" go here>>>>
http://www.hwarmstrong.com/xoom/hallofshame/hallofshame01.htm
Someone who had the opportunity to know Howard Clark told me that he was tested by the Human Engineering Labs / Johnson O'Connor Foundation and was found to have 17 of the 19 inherited aptitudes to a very strong degree. The Laboratory marveled that Mr. Clark was buried in the equivalent of middle management when he not only had the talent, but the drive to be the head of his own organization. He was obviously a lot smarter than his keepers and it is a wonder that he stayed.
As for his healing, it has been said that he was in constant pain. If true, that's not much of a healing. It is entirely possible that the "healing" was part of a regeneration whose time had come. Nevertheless, either way, he was a poster boy of faith for a cult gone wrong and that is why the powers that were let him have any latitude. That, and they probably were too stupid to know what was going on.
As for not being allowed to think: Isn't that inimical to building character? No choices, no character building. We all need to be able to fail by making bad choices in a safe environment. Apparently AC wasn't it.
So... thus far we have determined that the ministers of AC in those gory... er... glory days:
1) Didn't listen;
2) slavishly followed the party line right or wrong;
3) Expected others not to think;
4) Became defensive in the face of facts;
5) Weren't very bright;
6) Lacked compassion;
7) Lacked perspective.
Any more items for the list? It would be easy to convince me they were liars who couldn't handle the truth even if they recognized it.
It's reflection time for a number of ministers, apparently. UCG's Jerold Aust writes on his web site that he's toyed with the idea of writing his own memoirs.
This week marked 44 years for him as a Church of God member, beginning at Ambassador/Pasadena. He writes of the "growth" years of the 1960s:
In those days, many of us worked 60+ hours a week but our paychecks were about 12 weeks behind. We ate a lot of tuna out of a can and peanut butter on bread, but we had a lot of laughs. We knew that we had a responsibility greater than any personal agenda.
Well, you know, all most all evangelical and fundamentalist Sunday keeping schools do the same thing today. You do or say the wrong thing and you get kicked out in a heart beat...
The old WCG history... Big deal.
It would be more interesting to address today's abuses from the evangelical Sunday keeping community then to rehash this old stuff.
Have you heard of the movie "Jesus Camp"?
Or how about Alexandra Pelosi HBO documentary on evangelical America?
At least they are exposing major problems in today's Sunday keeping community that effect all of us NOW!
It would be more interesting to address today's abuses from the evangelical Sunday keeping community then to rehash this old stuff.
One word: Islam
In those days, many of us worked 60+ hours a week but our paychecks were about 12 weeks behind. We ate a lot of tuna out of a can and peanut butter on bread, but we had a lot of laughs. We knew that we had a responsibility greater than any personal agenda.
In other words, the Radio Church of God / Worldwide Church of God broke the Commandment, "Thou Shalt Not Steal".
Just how does anyone owe loyalty to hypocrites who quite literally don't put their money where their mouth is?
As for the responsibility bigger than any personal agenda, one could point out that Herbert Armstrong really had a really big personal agenda which would overwhelm almost anyone with responsibility: Lots of accountability with no authority.
UCG's Jerold Aust writes on his web site that he's toyed with the idea of writing his own memoirs.
As a racist, he should consider Proverbs 27:2, "Let another man praise thee, and not thine own mouth; a stranger, and not thine own lips."
Or better yet, just remain silent.
Of course, if he publishes, it will provide endless amusement for this forum, no doubt.
"One word: Islam"
The evangelicals with there absurdly incorrect interpretation of prophecy have started a new series of crusades through the Republican party that have destabilized the entire world...
We shall all suffer for a long time because of this stupidity.
You talk about a church doing ENORMOUS damage !!!
One of the numerous ‘anonymous’ contributors states out of the blue.
‘UCG's Jerold Aust writes on his web site that he's toyed with the idea of writing his own memoirs.
As a racist, he should consider Proverbs 27:2’
Is this what this forum is about – just hurl abuse about?
Questeruk, technically this isn't a forum, it's a blog that allows comments.
The reference to Aust's alleged racism probably concerns material he posted on his website last year about Asians. He clearly thought it was funny, but quickly discovered that others disagreed. I didn't post the comment above that you take exception to, but agree with the writer that the Asian material was racially offensive.
Aust removed the material eventually but offered - as far as I'm aware - no apology or explanation. He obviously feels he did nothing wrong - which probably says something in itself.
I personally wouldn't characterise Aust himself as a racist on the strength of this, but his choice of "humor" was boorish and insensitive, not becoming someone who claims to be Christian, let alone "a minister of Jesus Christ."
no offense to anyone with a different experience, but
So... thus far we have determined that the ministers of AC in those gory... er... glory days:
1) Didn't listen;
2) slavishly followed the party line right or wrong;
3) Expected others not to think;
4) Became defensive in the face of facts;
5) Weren't very bright;
6) Lacked compassion;
7) Lacked perspective.
I actually resent this generic everyone in the pool approach to many I knew, in fact, and not just in the fog of personal bitterness over personal experiences. You take any denomination on the planet and one can make generalizations about "all the ministers." This is painting with way too broad a brush from my in house perspective and seems a common practice. The further away from the events we all get, the more and more demonized the "Ministers" get. I knew many many very compassionate, helpful bright, non ass kissing, non gooks.
If you want minister stories still on going, I would suggest you talk to ex Bob Jones types. Lots of stories about "the BJ ministers" no doubt, but lots of sincerely and genuinely nice guys too.
Having grown up Presbyterian and been a WCG minister, this is MY experience. I don't disagree with how some ministers were. I totally disagree that they were all, or just the chosen few were not.
I have been reading Gavin for years now and know some of you for years. Life is not just getting more and more refined in bitterness. It's a lesson to learn for sure, but don't let it be your life thoughts, day and night forever. We're all paying, in many ways for our choices and only have the choice to learn and keep moving or get bogged down in spinning bitterness. That's just how I see it. I totally understand how others would not.
I also had Howard Clark as a teacher. He was gruff with a heart. I always felt his healing was psychosymatic in that his injuries were bad but not such that you could not bull your way thru them with a belief that God had healed. He was always in pain, some days more than others. He was a thinker and very intelligent. A man probably sidetracked in a more successful life personally by war. I am sure that war drove him, the thinker, to find an explanation for what he saw. Much of the WW2 generation sought hope in the church. Some ministers were fighter pilots before coming to WCG.
I knew some who were quiet, because they had killed and you would never hear about it. Perhaps they should have talked it out.
I still say we're all hear to learn even if we don't like the course.
Gavin, for some reason, I am drawn to read your blog. FYI, I am the "Gerry" that Pete is referring to in the excerpt.
The faculty member, Robinson, died not so many months ago. Although it had been well over 30 years since I had had any contact with him, it would have been interesting to have had the chance to have spoken with him to see how he might have changed/evolved over the years. However, in mentioning this to Pete after Robinson's death, Pete said he didn't believe it would have been a satisfying converstion as he thought Robinson had been a true believer to the end.
Anyway, all that soul and self-actualization stuff was ok as an AC student but, I suppose, I believe I've finally come to grips with life by now or, what the hell, I never will so let's get on with
it.
"I have no idea what might have transpired with Mr. Clark (he's one of the few AC/WCG officials/ministers whom I feel good about calling "Mr.") in the 1970's, but he was my speech professor, and Ambassador Club faculty adviser at or about 1966-68."
A quick internet check pulled up the Journal from 2002
GASQUET, Calif.--Howard Clark, 72, former elder of the Worldwide Church of God and photographer for WCG and Ambassador College publications, died Oct. 14 at his home here.
Dennis, you said, "Life is not just getting more and more refined in bitterness. It's a lesson to learn for sure, but don't let it be your life thoughts, day and night forever."
How right you are! How right he is, Guys!
Are you taking the bitterness and sorrow you feel from what you suffered or what others suffered and using that energy to do something good, now, before it eats a hole in you that you will be unable to fill?
Instead of bad-mouthing and tearing down, let's all get out and do … SOMETHING!
Respectfully,
Anonymous
The best ministers that I knew in the WCG had all of the following in common...
*They became ministers later in life, not as a "hot shot" 23 year old AC grad.
*They had worked in the real world, had real work experience and seen what it was like to work with "worldly people".
*Had been a "regular member", having to pay 3 tithes, put up with "minister crap" etc.
I had two who had all of the above qualities, and they both made a real difference in my life.
Those who did not have the above qualities were "en toto" real ass holes.
lussenheide
Anonymous @8:13 PM:
What is the evangelical interpretation of prophecy, and how are they using it to shape Republican policy?
I'm aware of some extremists who have bred a red heifer, and I've heard of some Messianics who believe that the ten nations of the beast will be Arab nations with the beast coming out of Syria, but have not been aware of such beliefs influencing official foreign policy.
Seemingly, religious beliefs have been responsible for many wars, although the deeply religious resent this being pointed out primarily by atheists and agnostics (me). Obviously the Muslim jihad is another example of this religion-war relationship, but how do you feel that US involvement in containing Islamic bronze age mentality has been influenced by evangelicals?
BB
Dennis,
Nonsense, utter nonsense. It's not hatred, it is a way to understand the experience so that we and others won't repeat it. I have identified "failure factors" -- that is, why did the ministers fail?
Now you say you resent the bulk of the ministers painted with a broad brush. I would counter that the entire venue could not have existed without the Assertive Incompetence of pretty much all the ministers. Speaking of incompetence of ministers, I would submit that a WCG minister preaching all that he did, no matter how compassionate he might have been and no matter how much he may have attempted to mitigate the harshness of his peers, was still loyal and supportive of the regime of the Armstrong Gulag. Moreover, a WCG minister who finally became an atheist would certainly be less than competent over all in being a minister.
Furthermore, I cannot yet identify another cult which like Armstrongism, as small as it was, break into 1,000 spit-off splinters in less than 20 years. There may be one, but even Scientology hasn't done that as far as I know. It is a fascinating investigation into the fear factors and rich in valuable information in psycho and social dynamics. Why did it fail? Why were the leaders so very incompetent? Why can't the splinters resolve their differences today and be one big family, if they are all so sure fired converted?
Besides, these glimpses into the past are fascinating because they explain a lot about why the spit-off splinters are the way they are today. Today we have the same authoritative non Scriptural tripe that existed 40 years ago. Why is that? How is that? Most important to me is why can't people see how ridiculous the whole thing is.
By posting what I post, I have the hope that those less versed in the horrors of the past will come to an epiphany, just as many have over at the Painful Truth. Without the facts and / or observations, some people would be continually enmeshed in trying to make their part in a dysfunctional venue work. I myself, owe a great debt of gratitude to Gavin to open the realization of who and what the ministers and leaders are really all about. I'm not absolutely sure, but think that my wife and I would still be attending United with their stalkers and fondlers without the knowledge that has been developed.
Having said that, I know for certain that there are many good folks out there: People who do keep the Commandments, sincere, pure and dedicated to the truth, who, when they realize they are doing something wrong, do change. A very small percentage of them exist in the Churches of God. For the most part, they are of other segments of Christianity and even other religions. And yes, a few -- but fewer than I would have thought -- are atheists -- who have a moral and ethical basis.
I too think it was a very bad idea to take youngsters, subject them to a hypocritical and self-righteous environment, and then set them loose on an unsuspecting public who paid for their education while suffering dictims handed down by them in an arbitrary fashion by those who practice a perverted translation of Proverbs 3:5 -- "Trust in yourself with all your heart, and lean to your understanding".
The truth is the more "counselors" and observers you have to analyze the past, the better judgment you can attain. I've thrown in the good with the bad. At any old time you could pop on over to my website at:
http://quietsafe.org/
and get a dose of positive information replete with hope and recovery, totally devoid of any of the soil of the scrap of the church of Gods. It's a choice few of you make. Or you could read my book, "Assertive Incompetence" and predict what those in authority will do next using the tools provided there.
Thanks, Byker Bob, for opening up the can of poisonous snakes. Opinions run rampant in politics and extremes have their extremes. I hear, and mostly ignore, really crazy sounding stuff like, "A vote for Hillary is a vote for Hezbollah terrorism". It's crazy out there.
I am also reminded that our illustrious president had Al Qaeda leaders over as best of friends when he was governor of Texas. And then there was the celebration of Ramadan at the White House last year.
On the Fox News Network -- that bastion of truth, justice and mercy, reporting the news without one shred of bias or spin, had a bunch of guys discussing Islam saying it wanted to take over the world, while an Islam woman insisted that Islam is a peaceful religion of coexistence, at which point one of the guys pointed out Chapter 9 [or however it is segmented] where it shows that the goal of Islam is to take over the world by whatever means necessary.
Forget AC of the Seventies. Forget the WCG. Forget the incompetence of the ministers and their inhumane treatment of the membership bordering on violating the Geneva Convention. Forget the Great Tribulation and the Place of Safety. Forget 1975 in Prophecy with Basil Wolverton's drawings he claimed was modeled by his wife. That's kid stuff.
Between global warming, global darkening, radical Islam and weapons of mass destruction along with Democrats steadily marching against the gates of hell toward the White House [Heavens! Two more years of campaigning?], the Churches of God are just kid stuff.
Thanks again Byker Bob, for an opportunity at distorted perception of hyperbole, which, unfortunately, just might have some basis in truth. But then, TV news being what it is, who can tell?
So the self righteous, pompous, conceited, racist ass wants to write a memoir. Give us a break Jerold! No one CARES! After suffering at the hands of this jerk I have no intention of ever reading this pigs writings.
Dennis: Are responses here something akin to the Stockholm Syndrome or Patty Hearst with the SLA?
To Anonymous 6:13 AM.
Jeez-0! I asked an anonymous blogger a couple of questions fer chrisakes! I have no way of telling whether or not you are that same anonymous blogger, but if you are not, you have taken up his/her cause. Instead of intelligently attempting to address my questions in a measured way, you went off on a tirade, introducing all manner of extraneous and irrelevant topics!
Can anybody else help here? Does anyone know what the evangelical interpretation of prophecy entails?
And, how this has affected the president's policies? I thought the so-called Neocons were Jewish intellectuals, and not evangelicals. Evangelicals have been complaining that the president does not give them anything meaningful, just lip-service.
Alas! I'm still trying to make out how we got from Howard Clark to Islam and evangelicals in the first place! I'm thinking someone has an agenda, and was waiting to pounce.
BB
Doug, I completely understand your perspective. Perhaps it's the difference in how to go about alerting those stuck that it's ok to think and act for themselves. I'd say the same forces that kept ministers complying with administrators is the SAME force that kept members complying to the minister locally. It's a form of denial that runs up the whole ladder from bottom to top. It's after the fact and after our personal shit hits the fan that we get more awake, alert and bold to note, in hindsite, all these problems. While they swirled around us, we ALL had a way to perpetuate them, even if we now believe we had shit for brains..which I do.. and did.:)
I still don't believe one can soak in the past ad naseum, and have a good outcome or positive existence in the present. At some point, I believe we have to let it go....not to save others, but to save ourselves. I know I have to
PS..You know I honestly wrestle with the idea that if I do let it all go, they (Tkach) will have gotten away with something. They actually did get away with something. Hell, they got away with everything. It's very difficult to leave it all up to "what goes around comes around," but maybe that's the point of the lesson.
by "Speaking of incompetence of ministers, I would submit that a WCG minister preaching all that he did, no matter how compassionate he might have been and no matter how much he may have attempted to mitigate the harshness of his peers, was still loyal and supportive of the regime of the Armstrong Gulag. Moreover, a WCG minister who finally became an atheist would certainly be less than competent over all in being a minister."
I take it you are not being subtle about myself as being on your incompetent and regime loyal list. I take it at one time, you were also regime loyal as a member, or were you always so aware of what you now are in hindsite? First of all and for the third time here, I am not an atheist. Agnostic, doubter, skeptic and spiritual in nature, but not atheist. Sometimes the most sincere, when disillusioned, become the most likely to keep looking. I am an expert in what I no longer believe. I am cautious about what to believe. I didn't come to wcg with growing up in it baggage. I was Presbyterian and accepted at another seminary when I went to AC. I am not convinced that I personally would not have had a similar experience in my own waking up to the problems of the Bible in either place I had chosen.
At any rate, I can't seem to shake the "you were one of them" thing even though I felt like one of you working for "them" them along the way. I think I'll take a break and let you guys all work it out. I keep trying to break my addiction to looking back anyway, so I'll give it another try.
PSS
"Moreover, a WCG minister who finally became an atheist would certainly be less than competent over all in being a minister.'
That is complete bullshit
1John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
It is certainly true that many, probably most, of the ministers in the Church of God have been, and are, too controlling, discourage members from thinking and expressing their thoughts.
This fact has really nothing to do with most of the "doctrines" the Church of God teaches.
These are two separate issues and although it is easy to link the two issues they are, in reality, separate issues.
It does make it very difficult to "support" a Church of God when most of the "leaders" are this way.
Those that do think, and are still with the Church of God, have in many cases done some deep soul-searching in HOW they support such a contradiction.
There are still some in the Church of God that are honest thinkers. Probably not many. It is true, most are "true believers."
Probably what God intended. He has to see how honest we are, despite the "who" which teaches it.
Jim
Dennis wrote: " still don't believe one can soak in the past ad naseum, and have a good outcome or positive existence in the present."
This is an excellent point. In the future, we must achieve closure on this. But what makes this difficult to do is that many of the wounds we have received have altered our lives permanently.
It also does not help that we know that ministers of this sort are in daily operation in the various COGs. I have heard some horror stories from Flurry's organization.
And what is really distressing is that the COGs either alter history to paint themselves brightly or they have become deniers of history. They publish books that idolize HWA.
It seems like somebody needs to be around to preserve the truth. We need more books like Doudna's and Leschak's.
If someone could actually verify the charges in David Robinson's book, we might see the end of this.
But I differ with Dennis on the culpability of the Armstrongite ministry. Though we may have all been under the toxic sway of Armstrongism, leaders always own greater responsibility.
-- Neo
David Robinson's book?
Name of, where to get it?
Byker Bob said...
"What is the evangelical interpretation of prophecy, and how are they using it to shape Republican policy?"
There is Pat Robertson, Jack Van Impe, Tim LaHaye and many less well known. All believe that Babylon is to rise at the end time, all believe that Israel will be threatened by Babylon, and that Babylon will have to be dealt with in some way. It is the nature of Christian leaders and Christian politicians to read prophecy and to try and help it along. That is partly how the nation of Israel was formed in Palestine.
Pat Robertson writes
http://www.patrobertson.com/Teaching/TeachingonBabylon.asp
"Ladies and gentlemen, we just took over Babylon. The United States is now in the role of liberating a country known as Iraq. It used to be known as Mesopotamia, the area of the Tigris and Euphrates, then it was changed to Iraq, and now we're there. But it's the old Babylon...."
"How does the America fit in? Well, we are the heirs, in my opinion, of Rome. We have a lot of the Roman culture. Britain was taken over by Rome. Our people have come from Rome. So what has now happened? But look at this. I think it's very interesting. Babylon is the head. This is the first major empire, and it's gone all the way full-circle back to Babylon again. And who brings it back to Babylon? None other than the continuation of the dream of Nebuchadnezzar. We now control Babylon..."
"What are we going to do about it? Well, we were discussing the matter of the so-called road map. Now what's going to happen now that this circle has been closed? We're back in Babylon. And this is the fulfillment, in my opinion, of that extraordinary dream that he had of these empires. But who finally crushed all of the empires? It was the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God was a rock cut without hands..."
Evangelical Pastors, almost without exception, rallied the faithful to support Bush's war on Iraq. They don't talk about it now. But the disaster was initiated and created with their council and blessing.
The Evangelicals have done enormous damage to this nation and to the nation of Iraq, they share the responsibility for the deaths of 100,000s...
Ok, Anonymous. Seems like at least the Pat Robertson constituency is inserting itself into the Bible much the same as HWA did. One difference would be that Pat sees us as being Rome, and HWA considered Rome to be the beast.
I believe that formulating foreign policy based on any manner of prophecy is misguided, to say the least, and outright dangerous in worst case scenario.
I'm aware of the HWAcaca regarding the beast power and Germany, and some more contemporary interpretations, which see a consortium of Arab nations formulating the final resurrection of the Turkish (Muslim) empire, which had largely controlled the Middle East up until the early 1900's.
In either case, the evangelicals (or any other groups) would be ill advised to involve themselves in any type of activity which would either promote or prevent fulfillment of any of the various interpretations of prophecy. That is because all such interpretations are based on guesswork, at best. People such as David ben Ariel, who makes it a practice to call Arnold Schwarzaneggar's office to see if he's interested in running for office in Bavaria, or Gerald Flurry, who continues to hammer the European beast scenario, are very dangerous. They, along with the evangelicals, may cause incredible damage, untold suffering, and massive loss of life by attempting to "help" prophecy along.
However, I don't recall George Bush, or any of his cabinet members or advisers citing prophecy as rationalization for the war in Iraq. I can see where the little church people in the background might be interpreting Middle East events as such, but there's no evidence that GWB has intituted military action in response to what he sees as Bible prophecy.
BB
Anonymous said...
BB wrote
"However, I don't recall George Bush, or any of his cabinet members or advisers citing prophecy as rationalization for the war in Iraq. I can see where the little church people in the background might be interpreting Middle East events as such, but there's no evidence that GWB has intituted military action in response to what he sees as Bible prophecy."
Our good president is and Evangelical Christian. That is his world view. His advisors include the Evangelical leaders of the United States. He has a weekly conference call with these folks. He does their bidding as best he can.
The point of my original comment was that bashing the old WCG is a distraction, a red herring, the real damage being done to today's America is being done by Evangelicals.
Not Catholics, they for the most part are not a part of this group. They as a community are much less political. They have matured. They were against the war.
There is so very much blood on the hands of today's Evangelical leaders...
To Dennis...
"I take it at one time, you were also regime loyal as a member"
All of us contributed money to the wcg and supported the heretical teachings of Herbert Armstrong. Our money went to the publishing of the Plain Truth magazine that led others into the error and pain of Armstrongism. I was a loyal member and gave what I could not afford. My family suffered and personally, I suffered beyond the monetary requirements demanded by a abusive cult. You see, I raised my kids in that godforsaken environment!
You also raised your children in this environment Dennis. After your experience with the Pastor General of the wcg you began to see the light of this money grubbing, two faced organization. Such an situation would cause any of us to question the legitimacy of any organization that treats human beings in such a way. Little Joe has Herbert's money, the money he stoled from us, the members. Money is little Joe's God. So be it. He got away with it and there is nothing anyone of us can do about it. Short of a organized lawsuit.......
However, you participated in this organization Dennis as a Pastor. As a Pastor, you participated in the party line in much the way as I, the member did. For this I have already forgiven you, as you already know from past contact with me.
I would suggest to others here that Dennis has paid his dues. He is just like us. He suffered (perhaps less) but he gave his heart to what he perceived as truth. Just as you and I did!
Kscribe.
"Anonymous said...
1John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
9:10 AM"
Let us apply that to the Nazi party. 1Adolf 2:19>>>
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Kscribe.
Jim>>>
Probably what God intended. He has to see how honest we are, despite the "who" which teaches it.
I say self deception is the highest crime of all. If the root is rotten, what good is the fruit?
Think Herbert!
Kscribe.
Anonymous said...
"Not Catholics, they for the most part are not a part of this group. They as a community are much less political. They have matured. They were against the war."
John Paul allowed the teaching by his bishops that AIDS was not preventable by condoms! This to his faithful flock in Africa.
The catholics are just as much to blame as Dave Pack and Osama for "Death by Religion."
Kscribe.
For all that doubt the resolve of the Islamic faction of terror, go to>>>
http://www.herbertwarmstrongvideo.net
Scroll down to the section called
~JIHAD~
Kscribe.
George Bush is not an evangelical. He is a Methodist.
ANON 4:21 PM,
I would agree with you to the extent that all religion seems to do as much damage as the good which it is purported to do. However, our shared experience here is based on the WCG. I always find it curious when posters and bloggers on the various forums attempt to persuade me to lay off the WCG.
Regarding the evangelicals, ten years ago I was telling people "Heaven help us if the evangelicals ever pattern their movement after the fundamentalist Islamic revolution." Now, I don't ever see them succeeding in this, mind you, because there are too many other religions here in the USA, and a couple of little documents called the Constitution and Bill of Rights. But, this does not keep the liberal cliches from bouncing around from time to time alleging that the Republican party is controlled by evangelicals. It is not, they are very dissatisfied with the returns which they have received for their loyalty, and if they ever did control the GOP, it would cease to be a viable party. Even with supposed total Republican control, they haven't even been able to get Roe vs Wade overturned!
Really, there's too much "scare" rhetoric being bantered about. It has lost it's effectiveness, much the same as car alarms. When is the last time you saw someone dial 911 when a car alarm went off? The person getting in to the car might well be a thief, but everyone just covers their ears and says, "Oh, someone's alarm is going off!"
BB
Kscribe said:
Jim>>>
Probably what God intended. He has to see how honest we are, despite the "who" which teaches it.
I say self deception is the highest crime of all. If the root is rotten, what good is the fruit?
Think Herbert!
Kscribe.
Perhaps I did not make my point clear. My point was no human is relevant to what truth is.
Herbert is irrelevant to truth.
For that matter, even a spirit being is irrelevant to truth. If Satan speaks a truth, it is still truth. If God sends a lying spirit,
that spirit will still bring a lie.
It is extremely hard to separate our opinions of a person/being from the accuracy or inacurracy he speaks.
Jim
Kscribe / Dennis: I'll add Jim Jenkins and Marc Masterson to the list of the good guys. I'm sorry to hear that Ozzie Englebart is dead. I was only 12 or 13 when he was transferred out but he usually had a smile plastered on his face.
Jenkins passed on some years ago but I hope Marc Masterson lives a long and healthy life. I also hope he eventually sees the same light that Dennis has.
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