We are all, like it or not, creatures of the dust, mortal and locked in time. The passing of any one individual is a cause for reflection, and empathy for family and friends whose lives were intertwined with a unique presence now lost. As much as we may wish to ignore the uncomfortable reality, this too will be our fate. Life is like that.
So, while I don't wish to be insensitive, the passing of Shirley Pack, wife of self-anointed apostle David C. Pack, is hardly a surprise. She may well have been a fine human being, dutiful wife and loving mother. Perhaps, in her own way, she had moments of insight and clarity which redeemed her perception of the hateful fundamentalism espoused by her husband. I hope so.
But the desecration of anyone's life by postmortem apologetic rape is a vile thing. The manufacturing of "last words" is not uncommon, but is usually intended to bring compassion and comfort those confronting loss. But to do so in order to manipulate is simply despicable.
Is this the case with Shirley Pack? Read Gary Scott's commentary and you be the judge.
35 comments:
My wife is my best friend, a constant source of strength, and a longtime companion. Although, it is indeed inevitable, someday, one of us will be without the other for a season.
For that reason, I always have sympathy to anyone who loses a spouse or close loved one. It is a painful and traumatic event. It sounds like Dave and Shirley Pack were partners and friends. I have empathy for the pain that Dave Pack is going thru.
That said, let me remove my following comments away from Dave Pack specifically , and move them into the "General Statement" area that can apply to anyone or any church.
Anyone that begins to identify themself as a "Bible Character" , ie. "Chosen Apostle", Endtime Zerubabel, Elijah, Two Witness, Dualistic Fullfillment of HWA & His Wife, Elisha, et al, ad nauseum, is in absolute LA LA LAND, and frankly in serious need of Psychiatric help.
I realize that many on this blog are agnostics, or skeptics of the Bible, but I say this even as an "in general" COG'r, believer in God and the Bible, who practices the Sabbath/Holy Days etc.
In life, business, religion, politics and so on, REMARKABLE CLAIMS MUST HAVE REMARKABLE PROOF!
The COG for nearly 75 years has not found itself satisfied with its unique belief systems and arguments, but must superstitiously attach supernatural grandeur and biblical status to its leaders. This is mentally ill.
I am amazed at how many people in this life believe "self proclaimed" contenders to religious titles, without any proof, science or evidence, just self proclaimed titles. Much like when Napolean crowned himself!
Life events, like death, are certainly mile markers, but to use them to promote ones megalomania and to further "a claim to title" is disturbing.
Lussenheide
"I am amazed at how many people in this life believe "self proclaimed" contenders to religious titles, without any proof, science or evidence, just self proclaimed titles. Much like when Napolean crowned himself!"
Well, given that they believe in imaginary beings in the first place, it isn't such a stretch, now is it? Why should we criticize them for being a little more delusional than the rest??
Paul
It would be interesting to compare ACOG ministers and their wives mortality rates with the mortality rates of the general public.
I've always heard that women, on average, at least in the USA, generally live longer than their male counterparts.
Since the stricter ACOG cults stick to the old teachings against the medical profession, and given the tremendous strides which have been made in terms of women's healthcare, you'd have to wonder whether negating such strides hasn't caused a spike in female Armstrongite's mortality.
BB
It’s just a whole new level of creepiness, isn’t it? I was quite ready to give The Dave a total pass on this, inasmuch as his wife never did anything to anyone and out of empathy for a fellow man who has lost the love of his life. I mean, there are a whole range of behaviors that the certainly grief-stricken can be excused for. A desire to rekindle the drive to keep on keeping on is understandable, perhaps even healthy and laudable.
But this is… just plain weird. Weird in an inauthentic way. He doesn’t get three paragraphs into his tribute to his wife before he is again mentioning HWA, in this case to say that the old boy also wrote his followers when Loma died. And then, he goes on, as if to imply that this is what he too must do.
The degree to which he has subsumed his own identity with that of HWA would make an Elvis impersonator proud.
Does the act ever stop?
Mark Lax
Mark, such is narcissism: A person just can't cease to focus on themselves as being the center of the Universe no matter what tragedy has befallen -- they turn it into self-promotion.
And, as you say, that is creepy.
And no, the act never stops -- it never even pauses or slows down as it picks up terminal speed.
The act never stops, does it? "The show must go on" (who said that?) no matter what, the show must go on.
I'm sure Shirley Pack was worried about "the work" on her death bed. Yeah riiiight, and I'm Jesus H. Christ on my days off.
Rest assured brethren, it's the last gunlap. The parallels between Loma and Shirley are just too great to be coincidence. So, the last Apostle, Pack, knows that the end is less than 10 years away.
I intended to say more but I suddenly had an urge to puke.
All of Armstrongism is weird and creepy. This is just one example amongst so many.
The page linked on Gary's site had the article and Dave Pack's picture, but wouldn't you think most people would have posted a picture of the deceased when writing a tribute article? Or, at least a family portrait, or husband-wife portrait?
That speaks volumes in favor of the narcissism contention.
BB
Some people use other people as mere props in their own drama.
Paul and all,
Paul, you said:
"Well, given that they believe in imaginary beings in the first place, it isn't such a stretch, now is it?"
Just curious, nothing more--( I'm assuming by imaginary beings you mean spirit beings--if not please clarify) what is your understanding of how "everything" got here? That is, considering the extreme complexity of even the simplest organism, not to mention the most complex, how did it all get here?
A brief answer will suffice.
Jim
That speaks volumes in favor of the narcissism contention.
All narcissistic centric environments are devoid of emotional content and therefore people are starved for affection.
This has become one of the many issues of those who have suffered Armstrongism: Humanity was lacking from the austere keeping of Pharisaical rituals devoid of real faith. People were reduced to objects to be manipulated to be the cogs in the giant cash machine built to satisfy the lusts of the elite.
As Occam's Razor suggests, this is likely the best explanation of the manifestations of creepy weirdnesses wherein people's emotional needs were not fulfilled but they felt obligated to fulfill duties which were a part of an extreme lifestyle which no one could actually make work.
In the fallout, we see the fruit of the core basis of the behaviors exhibited by the fruition of the narcissism of the elite.
This is just another example.
There is no such thing as a Christian narcissist. Christians are to love one another, but narcissists have no empathy and are incapable of loving anyone but themselves.
Narcissistic church leaders demand that the membership serve "The Work". "The Work" is an "it", a "thing". There is no emotional fulfillment in serving the Church Corporate. Love, companionship, affection are all irrelevant. All that is really important are the elite at the top of the dung heap.
The irony here is that sheople are robbed of the very love which is supposed to be at the very core of Christianity, leaving them emotionally empty and destitute.
Narcissism is idolatry: It may not be illegal, but it is in Scriptural terms, a sin.
In such an environment, as people are objectified, it is much easier to abuse them without pangs of conscience. They are after all, just widgets to be manipulated "for the greater good" which means the greater good of the elite and no one else.
Those ministers who retained empathy and love for others suffered terribly when they were forced by their dehumanized leadership to do evil work to the members -- all the way to symbolic murder through disfellowshipment. Some live with the terrible consequences merely because they had the bad fortune to NOT be narcissists or psychopaths. The pain can be very real. A few will spend a lifetime of regret.
Make no mistake: Narcissists don't really care about the collateral damage they do to others, outside of finding the pain and suffering satisfying for their own personal amusement.
Hopefully, this can clear up some of the confusion about David Pack as one who can feel his own grief and loss of a narcissistic source, but finding a way to use a death to provide himself with another.
"Just curious, nothing more--( I'm assuming by imaginary beings you mean spirit beings--if not please clarify) what is your understanding of how "everything" got here? That is, considering the extreme complexity of even the simplest organism, not to mention the most complex, how did it all get here?"
I don't know.
What is the connection between your question and imaginary spirit beings? What do they have to do with each other...oh yes, sorry. You believe that your particular imaginary spirit being created everything. Next time someone doesn't believe in flying purple pigs, I'll use that line too...oh yeah, then how did everything get here??? This logic will force them to conclude that flying purple pigs exist!
Paul
As unlikely as it seems, you might just find
a website that
actually does have a Flying Purple Pig, and then where would you be with
proof and all?
I have to say that Shirley Pack, as I knew her was a strong and good woman of herself. By her own admission in the past, she did not consider it easy to be who she was and all the dramatic circumstances of her life. It wears you out, even if, as we all know, you believe you are doing the right thing at the time.
I found it troubling that the tribute to Shirley had Dave's picture front and center. No comment. It just troubled me.
I believe, from observation that WCG/COG wife mortality would be higher or was higher than whatever normal might be. This may be true of all women who find themselves hard pressed, overworked and being that BS 50% of a man's ministry. I see many 'preecher wives' who seem tired and lost in it all out of habit probably more now than duty. Cancer seems to be the biggie and colon and breast cancer the most common.
Energy anatomy teachings would say that what eats you, EATS YOU as cancer and that unresolved anger is lousy for the health. Colon cancer may indeed reflect the idea that we subconsciously feel we are full of it and not moving ahead. Or not:)
I've told of the client I had that said her boss, a lawyer, was a "blowhard" and he even said he was a "windbag" I aske her if he had any lung problems and she said he just told her he had lung cancer. Stuff like that....
I met very few strong, confident and "this is who I am, without church permission, no matter who you think I should be" Pastor's wives. Somehow you get sucked up into the vacuum of expectations and loose your soul. You may loose your health along the way more quickly too. Towing the party or tribal line can be enervating.
I see wives and kids at times, as props in all manner of male jobs and relationships. Add to that a job where the man is to be the unimpeachable example of Jesus with the perfect everything which it never can be and it's a fairly ridiculous position to put any human being in.
Congregants want all sorts of considerations and slack but the poor soul who thinks he is called to minister gets no such consideration as just a human being.
Those who appoint themselves with remarkable titles seem to fall in a different category altogether. That's a bit the same feeling I always got reading how Paul was taught by the grand poopa, top student of all his peers, best of the best and probably an overarching kind of guy, all to remind us now how humble he was. Paul was always saying "I lie not." which of course makes one wonder what he was accused of lying about all the time.
At any rate, the "tell the men to do the work" seems contrived. It may have happened out of expecation or may have been sincerely so. I can't say or judge that. I do agree there may have been a bit more of the mom wanting to see her kids rather than hanging on to life so she could hear the last sermon and reports of the "work." It could happen I suppose.
As I noted elsewhere, her name was Shirley and not just "My wife," "Mrs. David C Pack," "Mrs Pack" ad naseum. Everyone is entitle to their own name and life. Her name was Shirley and I always liked her as a person years ago before I think she, like a lot of us, lost her personal identity.
Namaste
Dennis Diehl (That sign in thingy still gives me fits and won't recognize me..hmmmm, maybe it doesn't want to! :)
Another thought occurred to me. We now know that Loma was Herb's conscience. She was the one who introduced her husband to the Millerite family of religions. Shortly after her death, Herbert began his slide into hedonism, megalomania, debauchery, and alcoholism.
It has been said that women are the conscience of civilized society. They are the ones who are largely responsible for instilling good values into each new generation. It has also been said that it is much easier for a woman to find spirituality. In many cases, the subtle influence which women exert is not noted, or even perceived.
I believe that any leader of an Armstrongite extremist group who has recently lost his wife should be subjected to additional scrutiny by all of the members of their churches. These guys may succeed in breaking the HWA cycle which they find themselves in or identifying with, or they may end up following their apostle into his debauchery, actually completing the cycle. In a typical ACOG, most of the members are in a codependent relationship with their leader. I hope people recognize this, and have the good sense to get out if things become too bad.
BB
how did it all get here?"
Paul said:
I don't know.
What is the connection between your question and imaginary spirit beings? What do they have to do with each other...oh yes, sorry. You believe that your particular imaginary spirit being created everything. Next time someone doesn't believe in flying purple pigs, I'll use that line too...oh yeah, then how did everything get here??? This logic will force them to conclude that flying purple pigs exist!
Paul
I just wanted to illustrate what happens, with certain people, when one asks a simple question.
Jim
I believe that any leader of an Armstrongite extremist group who has recently lost his wife should be subjected to additional scrutiny by all of the members of their churches. These guys may succeed in breaking the HWA cycle which they find themselves in or identifying with, or they may end up following their apostle into his debauchery, actually completing the cycle. In a typical ACOG, most of the members are in a codependent relationship with their leader. I hope people recognize this, and have the good sense to get out if things become too bad.
A most excellent observation, Byker Bob, but really, why wait? The future is long past.
I just wanted to illustrate what happens, with certain people, when one asks a simple question.
And you have your answer: A respondent provided a picture of a flying purple pig.
I wonder if there is a midi music midi file to go with that?
Based on Byker Bob's observation and the history of the past, I would say that the membership of the Restored Church of God really is in for a rough ride and it isn't just the effect of Loma Armstrong's death on Herbert Armstrong. Several ministers in the xcgs have acted in unpredictable ways after the death of their wives.
This may portend no good.
On the other hand, David Pack has had one of his props knocked out from under him: He may actually realize that his belief in God's circle of protection isn't as definite as he would like to think it is. He may actually be stricken with pangs of regret leading to repentance.
That's optimistic, of course. It usually doesn't happen that way. My observation that the whole group goes into a sort of decline where things make even less sense than usual.
Those who give in to the simplistic Biblical formulas, however interpreted, of being the ones who ....
1. live at the real end of the age before Jesus comes in their lifetime as , once again, time is short.
2. have a good chance of being changed in a moment and a twinkling of an eye..without dying like everyone has 100% before them.
3. Should or must be healed if they follow the rather clear instructions in James 5:14.
4. Will be protected from life's twists and turns for the most part because "a thousand shall fall on thy right hand and ten thousand on thy left, but it shall not come nigh unto thy dwelling..."
and 5. Don't rob God so they can have the windows of heaven opened upon them...
...are either in for a rude real life awakening, or a major rampage up of the Biblical rhetoric in their particular faith by the explainers of such things.
Either way, you end up a mess living unrealistically in the real world of people and events that really don't care what or who you are.
Literalists are always having to reinterprete the misfires still to their church's or personal spiritual benefit, even though an admission that either "I was wrong," "I had hoped," or "maybe we aren't looking at this correctly" would be more in order. However, hold not thine breath.
Aside from the men who struggle to explain the Bible and "God's way" , the Bible itself lets humans down with its many promises and observations about how things will be for the righteous when, in fact, they don't work out that way either.
Remember King David said something about "never having seen a righteous man beg bread." Well I have and I suspect David did not often get out from his comfy haunts to see how the real world works.
Of course when that happens the Bible has it's own disclaimers the ministers can quote:
"God's ways are not our ways."
"A day with God is as a thousand years."
"There is a way that SEEEEEMS right to a man...but...."
"The wisdom of man is foolishness with God."
"Oh ye of little faith."
"You receive not because you ask amiss..."
"Blessed are the poor..." changed to "Blessed are the poor in spirit" by the rich
"In the last days, scoffers shall come...."
and so on and so forth, you KNOW what I mean :)
The COG's, who can't yet accept that people, even the leaders, die then go on to practicing "Necro-Evangelism" where the sermons, studies and tapes of the dead are still a great part of the show. They do that all the time here where dad, the great evangelist died, in 1976, but the surviving sons keep it all going with, "Let me sell you these books and then we'll hear a message from my dad...the late...." With skillful editing, I am sure the faithful feel as if nothing has changed at all.
I think I could start the Necro-Evangelistic Church of God and do pretty well actually!
Herbert Armstrong built his life on unwarranted assumptions that things would work out for him. Many things did work out for him only because he could get the money he needed to cover bad mistakes by sending out coworker letters to fill his coffers. Unfortunately, people came to rely on the assumptions they learned from Herbert Armstrong and they did not have the excess resources to fix the chaos produced by the assumptions. Herbert Armstrong did not have high foresight. He did not have to look ahead. He was careless about his future because he had the ability to rely on resources being there to support himself. Those members who were not prudent, basing their lives on his example, did not fare well because they couldn't fix the things in their lives broken by the assumptions they made following the example of Herbert Armstrong. One quick example to think about: Retirement.
So much for all things work together for good for those who are called according to his purpose.
Watch the assumptions: They can be real killers.
Byker Bob said...
Another thought occurred to me. We now know that Loma was Herb's conscience. She was the one who introduced her husband to the Millerite family of religions. Shortly after her death, Herbert began his slide into hedonism, megalomania, debauchery, and alcoholism.
I agree on almost all that you say here, except I have a problem thinking that HWA only became really bad after Loma died. If records are correct, he was a really bad dad long before Loma left. In fact she obviously was not so sweet a mom afterall.
Reality
I don't necessarily agree that people set their standards on HWA and thus got stuck. I agree with you that personally, everything for him was taken care of, as it now is with Joe Jr. But far outside and away from anyone who ever heard of the small WCG, millions still live their lives believing the promises that are right there in the book, in black and white, that simply do not live up to their billing.
No one I can of remotely think of tithed because someone else did and got rich. The promise of "do A and B will follow" is in the book along with hundreds of others. We were a Bible reading and God believing people and much taken at face value simply is not so in the real world no matter what faith one belongs to.
At this point, the Bible disclaimers kicked in...
But I agree with what you mean for HWA, or Joe Jr. or anyone else that can get ten people to send them a tithe being set and able to live in an unreal world of no want and no everyday hassles.
And while Paul claims to have gained nothing from the Gospel as income, his message was clear and has been used and abused ever since. But corporate America abuses the stockholders with their ridiculous bail out packages for the fools that almost ruin the company too.
I Cor. 9:
3 "This is my defense to those who sit in judgment on me.
4 Don't we have the right to food and drink?
5Don't we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas[a]?
6 Or is it only I and Barnabas who must work for a living?
7Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat of its grapes? Who tends a flock and does not drink of the milk?
8Do I say this merely from a human point of view? Doesn't the Law say the same thing?
9For it is written in the Law of Moses: "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain."[b] Is it about oxen that God is concerned?
10Surely he says this for us, doesn't he? Yes, this was written for us, because when the plowman plows and the thresher threshes, they ought to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest.
the cruncher...
11 If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you? 12If others have this right of support from you, shouldn't we have it all the more?
..But we did not use this right."
Every church on the planet claims this "right" for it's ministry. They just may have a bit more responsible overseeing of the amounts and the perks. It's the one man shows that go out of control run by boards of whimpy men who are mere props (I love that word) for the user to control and receive his narcissistic supply from.
To be free from the whole drama of religion and my God can whup your God is reward enough :)
No one I can of remotely think of tithed because someone else did and got rich.
I actually do know people who came into the church thinking that God would prosper them if they tithed -- and notably, many of them did not.
able to live in an unreal world of no want and no everyday hassles
Again, there were people who were in that situation with only ordinary substance. When Herbert Armstrong came out and said, "Prepare to lower your standard of living" a lot of people wondered at that. A few of us were wondering why Herbert Armstrong wasn't preparing to lower his standard of living. [Oh! Oh! I know! We should advise David Pack to prepare to lower his standard of living!]
Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain
Muzzling the ox-headed minister is exactly what we should have done. It should be noted though that in some of the smaller ministries none of the ministers take a salary: It is 100% volunteer. That's the up side. The downside is that most of them are military conservative hard line types who live on the assumption that everybody had better follow their authority or else because God put them in charge. Often as not, they send much of the tithes and offerings they receive to groups in Africa they think have adopted their particular form of Armstrongism, while the truth is, they are taking money from several different groups, including, but not restricted to, the Seventh Day Adventists and other CoGs. The scams never end, particularly when you can't even speak the same language and don't visit and don't know what you are paying for. Most unwise.
my God can whup your God
Anyone who really believes that has good cause to be concerned about Islam.
However, one thing I know is, my cat can lick your cat.
Also, in my personal skepticism of the politic in the texts, I feel that when Paul says things like...
8Do I say this merely from a human point of view?
The answer is probably "yes you do. You are after all a human."
When he says,
"Is it about oxen that God is concerned?"
The answer would again be yes it is about oxen first...
Or when he says...
10Surely he says this for us, doesn't he? Yes, this was written for us..
We no and don't call me Shirley. You can make it about you, but it was about oxen.
11 If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you?
Probably it's ok,depending on how much you want, but some of the seeds you have sown among us about women and singles, time is short and how marriage works better if not gotten into like you didn't, is pretty lame. Our kids are pretty messed up with your ideas about relationships Paul.
12If others have this right of support from you, shouldn't we have it all the more?
Well I don't know about "all the more," even though Paul, who never met or quoted Jesus, just knew his gospel was the one everyone was to go with and not other renditions which were plentiful.
..But we did not use this right."
Or maybe you did and just didn't mention it. You seemed to get all over the Mediterranean and eat pretty darn well even if your journeys are patterned in the text after those spoken of by Josephus about his own journeys, including the great shipwreck story.
When Paul says, "I lie not" I have think he probably was or it sure seemed so to others who knew otherwise. After all, he taught mostly the opposite to the Corinthians, of what he said he'd teach when he left agreeing with James about in Acts 15, or so Luke leads us to believe.
This is the guy that was asked to perform some temple rituals to show the rumours that he was against the Law of Moses were not true...ahem.....Paul must have said, "I did not have a relationship with those books (Romans and Galatians)
I guess I just don't like Apostles
and I have strayed from the topic :)
Douglas Becker said we should have muzzled the ox-headed minister.Truer words have never been said.
But truly, those COG ministers were a strange mixture of menagerie.
They also had the jawbone of an ass, perpetually exhorting the faithful to greater feats of prowess i.e tithing.
Seamus
So now both David Pack and Gerald Flurry are widowers. (If Mr. Flurry has remarried, I haven't heard about it anywhere.)
Do you think both men will make/are making a conscious effort to avoid remarrying -- recalling what happened along those lines with HWA?
We cannot go back and change history, but we can relive it.
If David Pack follows the pattern set by Herbert Armstrong here is what will happen:
1) David Pack will tell Restored Church of God members [all 200 of them?] that it is "the gun lap of the Work" and "time is short" before they flee to be protected "in a place of safety" during "the Great Tribulation". He will ask people to mortgage and / or sell their homes and send the money to "the Work". By doing so, they will be assured of their position in "the Place of Safety".
2) At the same time, David Pack will accelerate the building program to expand Headquarters with new grounds and new buildings. He will establish a "building fund" so that people can feel a part of growing Restored Church of God.
People will be ecstatic that their time has come to triumph over the world and respond generously. Then, when seven years pass and world events have not shaped up as predicted [and Islam starts taking over everything instead] he will generate a new scenario, make excuses and encourage people to give as never before.
In the terrible aftermath, people will be bankrupt and saddled with debt, but still hoping stupidly that some day it will all come to pass as predicted as more and more of the seniors in the church who have given of their substance for nothing die off.
If history repeats itself.
I've been in negotiations with Dr. Phil to provide those ACOG leaders without one, with one.
Dr. Phil said(in our test advert), "it's ok to want a wife one third your age"!
he continues,
"Just as it is ok as your being the one and only Holy Person that is God's Appointed One and Only in carrying out the End Time Work."
"We even have in our 'stable of help-mates' young ladies guaranteed not to laugh at you should you have homosexual proclivities, little hair, little penises, or bad smells about you."
"Now is the End Time. And we have the lady for it."
"Guaranteed not to be like that awful Ramona."
-Dr. Phil
"I just wanted to illustrate what happens, with certain people, when one asks a simple question."
The answer was simple. It was all of three words. What followed was a commentary on the dead horse of "oh yeah, how did it all get here???"
Another simple question...if you believe in God, could you please provide evidence of his existence?
A brief answer will suffice.
Paul
Shirley was a sweetheart, one of Peter Ochs' daughters, each of whom is and was a woman of valor in her own way. I'm very sorry to learn of Shirley's passing, and until now was unaware of her illness. Rest in peace, dear lass, until we meet again.
You overlook the fasting we are all required to do before Loma's passing. HWA informed us that God had shown him that her blocked bowel was like the blocked church (I forget his exact words) and that if we will all fast on a certain Sabbath God would heal her and the church. I was a minister's wife, AC grad, and all that, but I knew this was pure bullshit. Maybe wishful thinking (that's charitable). Maybe yet another way to manipulate the congregation, about which he cared nothing. They were only means to his ends. "Dumb sheep." His words and I heard them out of his own mouth in my presence.
I'm sorry for Shirley. I think I may have known her but I came to AC in 1960 so was older than Dave, that weirdo. I am so sorry that weak, ineffectual people aggrandise themselves in the name of God, in any religious cult or sect whatsoever, because they are simply not able to compete with truly talented and intelligent people in the real world. It's sad for everybody.
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