"Catastrophic wildfires, multi-year droughts, out-of-control deficits. Why is this happening to the Golden State? The answer will surprise you."
Gerry ("That Prophet") Flurry
Wicked Californians! Wicked!
The Romans only crucified Jesus, but you BAD Californians attacked Herbert W. Armstrong.
Do you know how naughty that was?
If not, Gerry Flurry will explain it to you. Gerry can do that because he's a prophet. Not just any old garden variety of prophet, mind you, but THAT prophet...Boy, are you Californians in deep manure!
Which is why the grumpy old Deity keeps throwing His toys out of the crib in your general direction. We're talking FIRE here. You Californians deserve it because, after all, God is never wrong, and God is clearly hosed off. Gerry knows: he's got the inside word.
It might help if Arnie wears sackcloth, throws dust in the air and weeps at Herb's grave. Think of it as additional insurance against acts of the Almighty.
Here's how That Prophet puts it: "California is the only state that ever attacked Mr. Armstrong and his work. Actually, it attacked a lot more than that. California really attacked the living God! It also attacked its only hope—a hope beyond what mankind can even imagine! Could such an unjustified attack by the state have anything to do with California’s problems in the last several years? It certainly does, and you need to know why."
Yes, you guys ATTACKED GOD. What were you thinking?! No matter that it was decades ago, and some of you weren't even born then, Gerry's god has a long memory and He isn't big on the forgiveness and compassion thing.
Prophet Gerry's article explains it all, except for the one thing I most wanted to know: how come his god is such a vicious jerk.
146 comments:
As one of those evacuated by the fires, and just recently returned to my home, I can say this about San Diego, and I think it applies to larger California too.
500,000 people of mixed races evacuated peacefully, with only one incident of violence, which was a leg stabbing related to a looting attempt.
Qualcomm Stadium housed 15,000 "refugees" and had as nearly as many volunteers to aid them.
Many evacuaton centers had to turn away volunteers and food donations, they simply had too much, the food was going to waste because of the abundance.
Its times of fires and earthquakes that Californians show their true nature and cooperate on a scale that defies the stereotypes.
And ALL this without State or Federal help, we simply do not expect it, nor do we really want their involvement, unless they got money for rebuilding.
We're workholics, and then we play just as hard.
We tolerate gays, mixed race marriages, minorities, Christians, Muslims, and eastern religions. Wouldn't Jesus?
Flurry's comments only serve to prove how truly delusional he really is.
I'm proud to be a Californian, I'm proud to be a San Diegan, and I thank God every day he delivered me from Armstrongism in ALL its forms.
Native Americans who lived in the area called the Los Angeles Basin the Valley of Smoke. Fires were always burning there long before humans were around. It just goes with the topography. You have the winter rains, which encourage the growth of vegetation, followed by those long dry summers.
And the huge population growth there has only made things worse. Plus we have the environmentalist wackos who will sic the federales on anybody who dares to clear the brush from around their homes. Thus, we have all the conditions of a dry tinder box, a catastrophe waiting to happen.
Even the U.S. Forest Service has finally realized the value of wild fires. During the decades long period when they tried to prevent such they only made the day of reckoning worse. Yellowstone National Park knows something about that.
The only problem is, Southern California is not Yellowstone. You can't just let the fires do their job, as part of the natural cycle of things. But Mother Nature will have her way eventually, which is what we are now witnessing.
Cults like the Phlurrydelphians only show their gross ignorance when they listen to such nonsense from their "for profit" leader. He is one of the worst whack jobs of all. And he is dumb, like a fox.
Gavin has it exactly right here when he calls them vultures circling.
I went to the site. Gerry Flurry isn't worth comment.
Dennis Fletcher
Calgary, Alberta
"Its times of fires and earthquakes that Californians show their true nature and cooperate on a scale that defies the stereotypes....And ALL this without State or Federal help..."
What? Impossible!
I wonder if the media will comment on the differences between how the Californians acted as compared to those in New Orleans. I won't hold my breath.
Paul
"The answer will surprise you!"
Hey...that sounds like Tom Mahon and Bob Thiel, doesn't it?
Paul
Well, what can be expected of a culty? "A Flurry of foolishness" is a good name for this flurry of foolishness.
And the drought in Georgia is caused by . . . God or global warming?
Wait for it . . .
global warming is caused by God because of Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens.
Contact "Corky" to get address where to send your tithes and free-will offerings.
I am located but a few miles from many of the fires.
There are at least 10 good loyal COG people here in Southern California that have had homes threatened or have had to literally evacuate and leave their homes.
The simplistic "health/wealth" concept that Flurry tries to apply to events such as this is downright superstitious.
There are "blessing and cursings" that are in this life. EXAMPLE: Dont go to work and the boss will fire you. They are principles most easily shown on the "micro economic" scale of things. Some concepts like Communism for instance, work on micro economic scales as well, like within a small family.
On a Macro economic scale, such concepts (like communism) do not "scale up" quite as efficiently, neatly or as correlated. The reason is that there are so many different cross streams of activity and information, many of them conflicting on the macro scale. Personal love and goodwill is neutered on the macro scale. There is a mix of evil and good going on. Productive and inefficient,or even righteous and sinful coexist in a mixed up soup. Only a fool would pretend to be all knowing of such a cacophony of signals.
The Bible itself speaks of "time and chance".
It is pure arrogance, to place an event such as these fires as a pronouncement from God, and to say so with pure authority.
To illustrate the foolishness of such simplistic cause and effect thinking, Flurry's wife recently died. Are we suppose to say it was because of his or hers "personal issues" or "lack of rigteousness" etc that the "Prophet Flurry's" wife died?? Any reasonable Christian would say "of course not".
Why is such reasonable doubt also not applied to this terrible fire situation?
Self righteousness is a hideous thing.
Lussenheide
May I add that in the area MANY Christian Churches, Syanagogues and even Mosques in have opened their doors wide to ANYONE without regards to "litmus tests" for those needing a place to stay, amongst the 500,000+ displaced people in the area.
May I inquire as to what is the Flurry Philadelphia Church of God's in Southern California action plan to aid or help the community?? Afterall, they did have a FOT site in San Diego and enjoyed all of its "carnal beauty and carnal attractions".
Are they at least willing to moan and groan and pray for innocent victims?? Is pious judgement all that this group is capable of?
Lussenheide
The Abominable Snowman is willfully ignorant. In order for his theory to be true, Herbert W. Armstrong would need to have been totally innocent of any charges of fiscal malfeasance. Just based on the public records from the court proceedings during receivership, and the court transcripts from HWA's divorce from Ramona, we know that had receivership been allowed to follow due process, HWA would probably have endured a fate similar to that of Jim Bakker.
Flurry still practices the early teachings of Armstrongism regarding healthcare, so it is doubtful that he would consider the wrongful deaths of hundreds of WCG followers as murder, but this is certainly another area of culpability for HWA.
The Jews were directly responsible for the killing of Jesus Christ, and yet they are known as a group to be some of the most prosperous, brilliant, and successful individuals on the face of the earth. Yes, there was the holocaust, but then that leaves us to wonder what the Armenians did to cause their holocaust, perpetrated by the Turks, and later used as a model by Hitler.
Flurry is using a simple, time-honored technique, and exploiting tragedy to lend weight to his own twisted agenda.
BB
Bill
Firstly, although I have no reason to believe that Flurry has inherited the mantle of HWA, he is right to point out that the land is full of murders, adultery, political corruption, homosexuality and other crimes too numerous to mention.
Now I know that most people here regard the bible as a work of fiction. So its warnings will be dismissed as so much humbug. But through the prophet Hosea God says: "Hear the word of the Lord, you children of Israel: for the Lord has a controversy with with the inhabitants of the land, because there is no truth nor mercy, nor knowledge of God in the land.
BY swearing, and lying, and killing, and stealing, and committing adultery, they break out, and blood touches blood.
Therefore shall the land mourn, and everyone that dwells therein shall languish, with the beast of the field, and with the fowls of heaven; yes, the fishes of the sea shall be taken away."
That is why the whole world is in trouble, and much of your country is burning, flooded, drought stricken or blighted by some other disaster. And this is just the beginning of sorrows!
>>We tolerate gays,?<<
You would because you are hostile to the wholesome teachings of the bible.
>>mixed race marriages, minorities, Christians,..<<<
You only tolerate them? What about welcoming them<
>>Muslims, and eastern religions.<<
You would tolerate these, for the bible describes those who turn away from the wholesome teaching of Jesus, as "dogs returning to their own vomit."
>>>Wouldn't Jesus?<<<
This is so sick, that I shudder to think of its consequences.
Tom
Well if the real truth be known about the tyrannical God that flaky Flurry endorses, you can find the real truth of why Calif. is having such trouble here>>> movie
http://www.youtube.com
/watch?v=Ua2sBisBCWw
On second thought, there is the acid test as to the 6-pack prophets claim to the Armstrong throne.
Ask the Spirits
Tom, the points being made here are:
1) armstrongists use every disaster as a tool to promote their agenda as if God's judgement is pouring out amongst the wicked when scripture is clear that God is witholding judgement for a time of his choosing. Remember that the rain falls on the just and unjust. Flurry is just appealing to his blind followers that this is proof of the end times and so forth. Near as I can tell, fires have been a natural problem since the beginning of time.
2) Jesus would show love, mercy, and compassion. You would judge and condemn them. A person born a homosexual had no more choice in the matter than someone born blind or without hands. Kind of odd that God would hold them responsible for that if that is how he made them. Being born a homosexual is every bit the genetic abberation that Down's Syndrome, conjoined twins, or having your parts incorrectly arranged is.
The wildfires are probably equal parts of natural occurance, poor resource management, and dumb luck with the weather.
What we see is neighbor helping neighbor in Southern California which is decidely more Christian than what Flurry is doing.
The Flurry and VistaAdmin approach is faulty.
Flurry's is because a false god (HWA) is being worshipped and presented as beyond the reproach that all humans as imperfect creations deserve.
VistaAdmin's (and he is not alone) is faulty because he hasn't read Matthew 24 lately where Christ describes neverending cycles of social, political, weather and environmental ups and downs that will accompany humanity's tenure on the planet with the warning that when the real trouble comes it will be unparalleled and nothing like it will have ever happened before.
These fires are not unparalleled - similar fires of a similar magnitude have happened before and there's a logical explanation that has to do with weather cycles, the terrain and the type of vegetation that grows there.
Yes, the world is full of sin and disobedience and God has said that He will address that. But when He does, it will not be mistaken for anything that's even remotely happened in the past.
These two remind me the warning against those who say "here's the Christ or there's the Christ." Based on what I read (and, yes, I take the prophets, etc. literally), when God steps in, there will be absolutely no doubt that it's God.
Bill Ferguson is right. I live in San Diego and the spirit of cooperation and help is almost overwhelming. In this case, trials are bringing out the best in people.
Tom,
There is a big difference between acknowledging that the Bible is not inerrant, and classifying it as a work of fiction.
To extract anything of value, you simply are required to do what all Christians have done throughout the ages (even you). It's called "picking and choosing".
∅VistaAdmin (aka TOM)said...
Bill
Firstly, although I have no reason to believe that Flurry has inherited the mantle of HWA, he is right to point out that the land is full of murders, adultery, political corruption, homosexuality and other crimes too numerous to mention. ∅
You omitted malicious, thieving, ministers and false prophets.
∅
Now I know that most people here regard the bible as a work of fiction. ∅
Yet again, you make gross generalizatiosn that apply to noone except maybe a couple of atheists....whom I'd trust more than you because I'd know their actions were guided by their conscience rather than some mental programming of some Armstrongist preacher in Cincinnati, Charlotte or Edmund.
∅So its warnings will be dismissed as so much humbug. But through the prophet Hosea God says: "Hear the word of the Lord, you children of Israel: for the Lord has a controversy with with the inhabitants of the land, because there is no truth nor mercy, nor knowledge of God in the land.∅
Assuming, God did send Hosea, and that the scripture is not a retrojective redaction to support a historical narrative, did you ever notice who the message was sent to? Israel in that time! TEXT WITHOUT CONTEXT IS PRETEXT.
∅ BY swearing, and lying, and killing, and stealing, and committing adultery, they break out, and blood touches blood.
Therefore shall the land mourn, and everyone that dwells therein shall languish, with the beast of the field, and with the fowls of heaven; yes, the fishes of the sea shall be taken away."
That is why the whole world is in trouble, and much of your country is burning," ∅
"YOUR COUNTRY"? I TAKE IT YOUR NOT AMERICAN?
∅.....flooded, drought stricken or blighted by some other disaster. And this is just the beginning of sorrows!∅
I hate to break it to you, but floods, fires and earthquakes ARE THE NORMAL pattern for California and always have been. If we get winter rains followed by Santa Ana winds, ITS STILL BURNS - JUST HOTTER BECAUSE THERE'S MORE FUEL!
∅ >>We tolerate gays,?<<
You would because you are hostile to the wholesome teachings of the bible.∅
YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW ME.
You'd be the type to reject food from a gay food prep volunteer in an evacuation zone. Fine. You don't deserve to eat in that case.
∅ >>mixed race marriages, minorities, Christians,..<<<
You only tolerate them? What about welcoming them ∅
Its good to know some xCGers have gotten at least as far as welcoming mix-races and other non-Armstrong Chrisitans.
You pick and choose your context don't you? I hope you don't do the same with scripture.
∅ >>Muslims, and eastern religions.<<
You would tolerate these, for the bible describes those who turn away from the wholesome teaching of Jesus, as "dogs returning to their own vomit."
>>>Wouldn't Jesus?<<<
This is so sick, that I shudder to think of its consequences.
Tom ∅
You've establizhed a number of things about youself, your probably not in the LCG, you don't live in America and probably don't like Americans, you're a homophobe, and you hate Muslims and Buddhists.
What can I say?
Hate is not a family virtue.
Fire in Calif, Tornadoes in Kansas, Rain in the south, Hurricanes along the coast, snow in Antarctica, heat on the equator....you can sure tell it's almost time for Jesus to return!
Sorry for being slightly off topic, but Charlie said:
"A person born a homosexual had no more choice in the matter than someone born blind or without hands."
I know there are some on this blog who are versed in the Genome Project and DNA related topics, so I was wondering if this has been proven yet?
I can't imagine this particular DNA research being funded by a National Lab such as LBL. Too touchy a subject for the gov. to sponsor; so it would have to be done by a private research firm (or so I would guess).
Anyway, this subject is getting plenty of attention lately due to the statement made by one DNA researcher who claimed that the African race(generally speaking), are born with less brain cells than whites. Whether this is true or not remains a bone of contention. Can anyone here confirm or deny this?
One thing is for certain, in the future if they do find a "gay gene", many of the pro-choice crowd will begin to back peddle like crazy when women begin to abort their babies due to finding a "positive gay gene" in their fetus.
Tom said:
>>mixed race marriages, minorities, Christians,.. <<<
You only tolerate them? What about welcoming them
Er, Tom, I don't know how to break this to you, but how do you think those "eight souls" on that Ark produced all these different races?
I assume you take this ancient folklore about some worldwide flood as fact because it's "biblical." So, that leaves you with two options:
- Noah was NOT pure in his generations, as opposed to what your idol Armstrong stated in his anti-miscegenation booklets, and his sons had mixed marriages (O forsooth!)
- Noah WAS pure in his generations, as your idol Armstrong stated in his anti-miscegenation booklets, and the white race produced all these other races.
Either way, your genealogically screwed. :-)
Passive agressive disdain is not the same thing as tolerance.
That may be Tom's form of tolerance but its not how must people use the word.
Funny how people project on others, their own world views.
I always have to laugh when the Armstrongites spit their anti-gay nonsnese. I know for a fact that Armstorgnism and Meredith's teachigns on gays was a bunchof horse sh.t! ALl he praying, fasting, begging GOd to take my gayness away from never happeend. Once I accepted that fact and then accepted myself I becasme a productive members of society takign care of my fellow members of humaity in all kinds of humanitatarisn outreach. Belvei me, if you had lost your home you would be mroe thanhappy to stand in my line for hot fod and clothign, or have me help you fill out the governemntpapers to start your life all over again. Unelss of course you are a real diehard Armstorngite cutlists who would refuse such help. If that is the case then you need to remain homeless and go without food, because you deserve to suffer. We suffered for years listening to the lies of HWA, Rod Meredith Flurry and other Armstrongite crackpots who deliberately and knowingly lied about gays in the church. When there is a disaster in our area, the gay members of the community step to the plate almost immediately with helping hands and assistance, unlike Th self righteous COG members in the area who NEVER lift a finger. This gay is a well adjusted, happy citizen of this country who is patriotic, loves this fabulous country, serves my community and fellow man, and follows God and KNOWS for a FACT that I am loved 100% by God. I no longer care what some sniveling Armstrongite in ANY of the splinter cults has to say about gays or mainstream Christianity. Your opinion is irrelevant and not based upon any thing in the Bible. Nor do I care what some right wing conservative Evangelical wants to spout. I know my relationship with God is secure and have no need to worry about what a self serving-self righteous religious fruitcake has to say. I have sen more fruits and nuts in Armstrongism than I ever have in my community.
I don;t know what happened with the above entry but all kinds of mistakes popped up. THis is what Imeant to say:
I always have to laugh when the Armstrongites spit their anti-gay nonsense. I know for a fact that Armstrongism and Meredith's teachings on gays was a bunch of horse sh.t! All the praying, fasting, begging God to take my gayness away from never happened.
Once I accepted that fact and then accepted myself I became a productive members of society taking care of my fellow members of humanity in all kinds of humanitarian outreach.
Believe me, if you had lost your home you would be more than happy to stand in my line for hot food and clothing, or have me help you fill out the government papers to start your life all over again. Unless of course you are a real die hard Armstrongite cultist who would refuse such help. If that is the case then you need to remain homeless and go without food, because you deserve to suffer.
We suffered for years listening to the lies of HWA, Rod Meredith Flurry and other Armstrongite crackpots who deliberately and knowingly lied about gays in the church.
When there is a disaster in our area, the gay members of the community step to the plate almost immediately with helping hands and assistance, unlike the self righteous COG members in the area who NEVER lift a finger.
This gay is a well adjusted, happy citizen of this country who is patriotic, loves this fabulous country, serves my community and fellow man, and follows God and KNOWS for a FACT that I am loved 100% by God.
I no longer care what some sniveling Armstrongite in ANY of the splinter cults has to say about gays or mainstream Christianity. Your opinion is irrelevant and not based upon any thing in the Bible. Nor do I care what some right wing conservative Evangelical wants to spout.
I know my relationship with God is secure and have no need to worry about what a self serving-self righteous religious fruitcake has to say. I have sen more fruits and nuts in Armstrongism than I ever have in my community.
Ex-COG Gay and all:
God is not against homosexuals. Nor is he against any sinner. However , He doesnt condone just any action that we commit. We are called to restrain our passions, whatever they may be.
In regards to sexuality, none of us, homosexual or heterosexual has the sanction of scripture to be fornicators. The Bible does not condone hedonism, or any untethered expression of sexuality that one may wish, prefer or desire.
As a heterosexual, I never engaged in sexual relationships while I was single. Without having to deny my " heterosexual orientation", I lived a celibate life. I know many who have as well, including my wife.
The one thing that I do not understand about many homosexual Christians is that they do not believe that it is possible to live a celibate life. I did so for many, many years as a young man. I was a normal healthy individual with a normal libido.
Do homosexual Christians claim that they have a right to their sexual expression, no matter what, whether right or wrong, regardless of scripture??
Lussenheide
As far as Jim Bakker goes, he is back on TV although at 4 AM.
I don't remember Florida ever attacking HWA, but I do remember Florida burning a few years back.
Pat Robertson had a field day with it.
Picking up on Lussenheides first posting, WCG and its offshoots have always been overly superstitious, while denying it existed.
Harmstrong wrote in his autobiography of a faith healer than came, prayed over Loma, and she was healed. Later, Herbert shared with this man his wonderful revelations - I forget if it was the sabbath, or BI - but the faith healer wasn't interested. Next time Herb saw the faith healer his power to heal had left him - and Herb speculated that it was because the healer had rejected Herb's "new truth".
In a legalistic environment it's easy to see cause and effect where no such relationship exists. Gerry's article is a great example: he starts listing the many times PCG has spoken out and proclaimed that these natural disasters are the result of sin being visited upon the Californians. OTOH, one could say that southern CA has to live with the danger brought every year by Santa Ana winds, much like Florida has to live with a hurricane season, and Kansas with tornados.
Wasn't it just a year ago that Oklahoma was being ravaged with wildfires? I guess from PCG's point of view only the pagans suffered.
When I read dreck like this article a couple of things come to mind - one is what Jesus taught about the victims of disasters, that they couldn't be looked upon as worse sinners than anyone else. Two, the parable of the publican and the pharisee praying in the temple, with the PCG looking more pharisee than publican.
"Look Lord! We tithe! Not so those wicked Californicators! We honor your prophets, which that wicked state attacked! And look Lord! We don't dirty our hands by trying to help those that have had their homes burned down, just so that they can feel the fullness of your displeasure." And they miss the chance to serve Jesus himself, by ignoring the least of these, his brethren.
The only thing that Gerry's got to make his case is that bad things have happened in California. This implies that life would have no problems for those that fear God and keep his commands - yet we know that's not the case either.
Kudo's to California for being so prepared for events like this, and for the attitude displayed by so many of the displaced and homeless. I hope that this attitude continues on long after the worst of the crisis has passed, and the longer effort at rebuilding is underway.
And Gerry - drop the superstitions and re-examine your Bible. You could learn a thing or two.
"The Bible does not condone hedonism, or any untethered expression of sexuality that one may wish, prefer or desire"
I saw a book at Barnes and Noble that said it was ok. It was even written recently and not by Middle Eastern types that couldn't agree on what the story was all about and thought men came from God but women only came from men.
"The one thing that I do not understand about many homosexual Christians is that they do not believe that it is possible to live a celibate life. I did so for many, many years as a young man. I was a normal healthy individual with a normal libido."
A celibate life leads to mental illness and double lives. You're not the standard of how human sexuality works. That worked for you. Being chaste before marriage for years is one thing, but telling humans that they can't experience their sexuality ever and while can be gay or whatever, as long as they don't act on it, it's ok to be gay, is insane. Ask an older Catholic Priest how it works and if he is better off in life for having been told that they must be this or that way according to the ideas of others.
I wonder if the Apostle Paul ever had to apologize to the single ones a church that he guilted into 'but it is better if you remain as me.." because time was short, which it wasn't.
Vonwit...
>>>When I read dreck like this article a couple of things come to mind - one is what Jesus taught about the victims of disasters, that they couldn't be looked upon as worse sinners than anyone else.<<<
If you are going to quote Scripture, please try to be accurate.
The passage you alluded to is found in Luke 13. Jesus was told of the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices, and Jesus posed the following question: "Suppose you that these Galileans were sinners above all the Galileans, because they suffered such things?" And his answer was, "I tell you, No: but except you repent, you shall all like wise perish."
The same may be said of anyone who suffers any tragedy. Thousands have been killed in Iraq by coalition forces and sectarian bombings, who did not support Saddam. Were they the worse sinners in Iraq, because the suffered such things? Are the people of California, whose properties have been razed to the ground, or who have had to flee the flames, worse sinners than any other people on earth? Perhaps not.
But Jesus' point is that all people are sinners, and the wages of sin is death. And even though the worse people are not always the first to die, everyone will perish except they repent.
Today it is the Californians, tomorrow, it will be you!
Tom
Stinger
>>I assume you take this ancient folklore about some worldwide flood as fact because it's "biblical."<<
If your position is that the bible is folklore, then whatever I say would be dismissed as nonsense. So what is the point in me answering your question?
Tom
Tom,
Time for you to repent of self-righteousness, cowardice, and lack of charity.
Lest you be next!
"We are called to restrain our passions, whatever they may be."
Right. Don't forget that God "created" those passions within us (hormones and reproductive instinct) just as he "created" us with a sinful nature that can in no way ever obey him fully, thus bringing condemnation. But there is hope folks! You can escape the condemnation that God created for you (by creating a standard that we can never meet due to our "created" sinful nature)by accepting the blood of Jesus! It all makes sense!
I wonder if animals are going to be punished for their "created" urges?
Paul
"Are the people of California, whose properties have been razed to the ground, or who have had to flee the flames, worse sinners than any other people on earth? Perhaps not."
So the Californians aren't being punished for their sins? Aren't you contradicting yourself?
Paul
Bill>>We tolerate gays,?<<
TOM>>You would because you are hostile to the wholesome teachings of the bible.<<
Bill>>YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW ME.<<
"Every time you open your mouth you allow others to look into your mind." Therefore, I know you better than you know yourself, you may be shocked to learn.
Bill>>Assuming, God did send Hosea, and that the scripture is not a retrojective redaction to support a historical narrative, did you ever notice who the message was sent to? Israel in that time! TEXT WITHOUT CONTEXT IS PRETEXT.<<
Assuming? So you also think the bible is fiction. I thought as much!
Bill>>You've establizhed a number of things about youself, your probably not in the LCG, you don't live in America and probably don't like Americans, you're a homophobe, and you hate Muslims and Buddhists.<<
As soon as someone is critical of you asinine opinions, you leapt to the illogical conclusion that the person hates Americans. What nonsense?
The Muslim's and Buddhist's religions are described by the bible as satanic, and Christians are admonished to say away from Satan.
The bible describes homosexuality as a "vile affection," and the product of a "reprobate mind." You may choose to tolerate them or even befriend them, but Christians are commanded to associate with people who are not likely to corrupt them.
Having said the above; for the record, I don't hate anyone, not even my enemies.
Tom
VistaAdmin said...
The passage you alluded to is found in Luke 13. Jesus was told of the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices, and Jesus posed the following question: "Suppose you that these Galileans were sinners above all the Galileans, because they suffered such things?" And his answer was, "I tell you, No: but except you repent, you shall all like wise perish."
But Jesus' point is that all people are sinners, and the wages of sin is death. And even though the worse people are not always the first to die, everyone will perish except they repent.
Jesus wasn't talking about natural disasters but the Jewish insurrections. He said they would "likewise" perish. In other words, if you don't change and "love your enemies" and "do good to those who hate you and despitefully use you" (IOW, the Romans) then you will also perish the same way.
And the fact is, they didn't change and the Romans destroyed them in 70 AD.
Jesus was teaching them to love their enemies, the Romans, and to treat them with respect and stop their insurrections or else the Romans would destroy the Judeans the same way as they did the Galilean insurrectionists.
Jesus was teaching a non-violent means of defeating the Romans. In other words, if you behave they'll stop hating you and leave you alone to worship your God in peace.
But, be it far from me, as an atheist, to teach bible lessons to the righteous.
Hey, Vista:
Jesus didn't avoid the types of people that most Christians of today would think could corrupt them. He partied with republicans and sinners.
Homosexuals are not going to corrupt heterosexuals, either. Either orientation is something you are born with. If a person was worried that gays might seduce and corrupt them if they are not ever vigilant and on guard, wouldn't that indicate that that person's sexual orientation might be a bit tentative, or precariously perched?
Tom:
Surely you are acquainted with the difference between a paraphrase and a direct quote? For the record, I was thinking of the part where Jesus was discussed those upon whom the tower had fallen upon - a more direct comparison to recent events than religious strife.
Yet I also find it interesting that your first response is to nitpick scripture. When Jesus saw the crowds of his day he was invariably moved with compassion for those "sinners" - why do the COG's have such a hard time doing likewise?
Corky
>>>But, be it far from me, as an atheist, to teach bible lessons to the righteous.<<<
This may be a redeeming sentence, for all that you said before was utter nonsense.
Tom
"The Muslim's and Buddhist's religions are described by the bible as satanic, and Christians are admonished to say away from Satan."
wow, you learn something everyday here! I had no idea the Bible described Buddhism or Islam as Satanic expecially with the 600's AD origins of Islam. Is this like the Bible teaches us that Democrats are evil and of Satan and we shouldn't vote like Satan?
Hmm, I believe I'd take the reflective Buddah over the cultic and vengeful Biblegod anyday! Satan needs to do his homework.
What most miss in all this and other disasters in the US is the real spirit of cooperation and decency shown by Americans who come from far and wide to lend a hand and give, give, give.
New Orleans stood out in all of this because it was so out of the norm for people to behave that way.
The WTC disaster showed NYers at their best, hurricanes in Florida showed it too and people from all states came out to help at their own expense.
California has shown its grit before with disaster.
I think too many look at the wrong side of things.
We have a lot to be proud of when we see how these things bring out the best in Americans.
"New Orleans stood out in all of this because it was so out of the norm for people to behave that way."
It's the norm for that area. You would see the same reaction if it happened again.
Paul
I suspect that during the tribulation, the peoples of earth will help each other out to get through while the COG's will hang out somewhere in their circle of protection doing nothing but final training for a job no one will give them when it's all over.
Tom said:
If your position is that the bible is folklore, then whatever I say would be dismissed as nonsense. So what is the point in me answering your question?
Because Tom, it's the folklore that you believe in and hold as holy writ, not me.
But you can't answer my question without getting your religious tit caught in a wringer. Which is why you dare not answer it.
According to this account in Genesis, all of the modern races came from Noah. Which means either:
- Noah's sons practiced miscegenation (a BIG Armstrongological no-no!)
- Only the White race now exists (as Armstrong would have really liked it to have been).
And since you are the one here who views miscegenation as a "sin" then I will leave it to you to answer this Biblical conundrum.
The ball is in your court, Tom.
'without getting your religious tit caught in a wringer'
Spoken as truly ONLY a student of Roderick C. Meredith could say it! Tell me you were in his class!
"...doing nothing but final training..."
Ah yes! Training to rule the earth with a rod of iron by setting up folding chairs and passing out songbooks. It's hilarious. In the WCG the people were being "prepared" to rule over millions of people in the Millenium with god-like powers and what useful training did they receive? It seems like there should have been workshops on topics such as:
"Logistics in grain transportation for the American Southwest"
"How to deal with an armed rebellion"
"What type of execution method will maximize fear in the populace yet doesn't breed resentment"
"How to rule six million people living in a primitive society"
Yet, they were told that by being totally submissive to The Church and Its Ministry, they were learning how to rule the planet.
Wow.
Paul
"I wonder if the Apostle Paul ever had to apologize to the single ones a church that he guilted into 'but it is better if you remain as me.." because time was short, which it wasn't."
It was for Paul because he got executed by the pre-Modern Romans,
and that advice didn't work in Milwaukee either.
"Ask an older Catholic Priest how it works and if he is better off in life for having been told that they must be this or that way according to the ideas of others."
I don't attend Catholic church anymore because the only organization for never married singles is the priesthood/monkhood/nunhood
and now the dioceses are paying out big time. I'll wait until I'm married before I go back.
"Celibacy causes B-B-Brain Damage!""
"The Muslim's and Buddhist's religions are described by the bible as satanic, and Christians are admonished to say away from Satan."
Islam came along long after the New Testament was written, so it's hardly likely it mentions the Muslims. Buddhism goes back a long way BC, so I suppose some allusion is faintly possible, though I doubt it.
"God is clearly hosed off"
Do you know for sure that the "Deity" doesn't get angry?
Then why are there wars, famines, bad weather, fire storms, and all kinds of suffering?
So many ugly and terrible things happen.
Do you think the "Deity" doesn't see this stuff and can't stop it or redirect it?
Maybe you think He can't stop any of it... if so "God is Dead".
But if God is not dead; then the "Deity" may be mean, He may get angry, He may enjoy watching suffering...
So many questions if the "Deity" is not dead...
Somebody wrote:
As a heterosexual, I never engaged in sexual relationships while I was single. Without having to deny my " heterosexual orientation", I lived a celibate life.
Well, you're a better man than me. I tried to be celibate. But honest to God - I love women!
I take it you never ever shook the dew off your lily either. I suppose it is possible... But they have pills for that now!
The thing I never quite understood about religion is, if God created biology why would God get his undies is such a twist when biology gets the best of us? Isn't that entrapment?
I suspect he's more concerned about how we treat each other.
What I see is that those of the armstrongish bent, as well as others of other similar fundamental juxtapositions, have a strange hard-on toward the rest of society, and a longing for the day when others who are not in their imagined "exclusive and uber-righteous club" will get hurt badly by the vengeful god they imagine to be on their side.
I think that for those of the armstrongist bent, the extrapolating from outward events, and hoping the worst things to happen to "others in the world", and having faith in such vengefulness is all about clinging to hateful ideas in the face of all the winds of truth and love in the world that might not be a part of their elitist group.
Those of the armstrongish bent need to look at "the world" with disdain in order to maintain their imagined superior worldview.
There's something about "stating it loudly", so that they don't have to think about it, that's going on.
It's sad, there's no room for nuance- everything is black-and-white.
And not to mention that such persons grab like people drowning at anything they can that they can, that they think might support their world-view, however illogical(to others), such as Flurry's comments that Gavin referred to.
~Mel
"Biblegod man" said...
Hmm, I believe I'd take the reflective Buddah over the cultic and vengeful Biblegod anyday! Satan needs to do his homework.
Biblegod man is back! Long time no hear!
That phrase used to piss me off no end! Now I understand it.
There's God, and then there's Biblegod, sometimes the two look similar, but quite often they look nothing a like.
For a group claiming to be "Christian", Armstrong and his boys certainly orchestrated a decidedly anti-Christian transformation in their follower's hearts! It was a case of don't show anyone your Christian love, except our approved or designated people! Everyone else is subhuman and doesn't count.
>>Hmm, I believe I'd take the reflective Buddah over the cultic and vengeful Biblegod anyday!<<
Let every man be drawn by his own pleasure!
Tom
Charlie
>>1) armstrongists use every disaster as a tool to promote their agenda as if God's judgement is pouring out amongst the wicked when scripture is clear that God is witholding judgement for a time of his choosing.<<
Where did you get this silly idea from?
Tom
mytwocents
>>VistaAdmin's (and he is not alone) is faulty because he hasn't read Matthew 24 lately where Christ describes neverending cycles of social, political, weather and environmental ups and downs that will accompany humanity's tenure on the planet with the warning that when the real trouble comes it will be unparalleled and nothing like it will have ever happened before.<<
***********************************
If I may be so bold as to say, your sobriquet overstates the value of your comment.
Tom
>>Homosexuals are not going to corrupt heterosexuals, either.<<
But they will abduct other people's children, since they don't have any of the own, and bugger them to death. They will meet together in bars, get drunk and behave like dogs in heat.
It should be obvious to any sensible person that if homosexuality and lesbianism were normal, and all people wallowed in the cesspit of it, the human race would be extinct in a couple of generations.
On second thoughts, perhaps not, as a "gay" scientist may be able to produce little boys to be abused by the happy, gay people. Who would want to live in such a world?
Tom
Tom,
Your comments show you to be willfully completely ignorant on just about every topic. You are truly the servant that buried his talent in the ground. It is my sincere hope and prayer that your eyes are opened before you have wasted your entire life or done too much mental and emotional damage to your wife and children.
As we say here in the USA, "Your ass is showing."
VistaAdmin said: "If I may be so bold as to say, your sobriquet overstates the value of your comment."
Was that the Word of the Day on your calendar yesterday? Thought so.
You actually think this way about everyone else's thoughts or opinions, while you exalt your own thoughts and opinions as being always right and always superior to everyone else's. I suspect God Himself is wrong unless you straighten Him out based on the way you categorically misrepresent Him throughout the vain and egotistically, yet empty and superficially, things you can be counted on for "contributing" to any otherwise intelligent discussion. Reminds me of this angel that used to have the name Lucifer.
You'd be better off trying to do the job your sobriquet suggests you do and go fix all the mistakes and crashes and glitches of another pompous and arrogant man to whom you surely must relate.
Paul said: "Ah yes! Training to rule the earth with a rod of iron by setting up folding chairs and passing out songbooks. It's hilarious. In the WCG the people were being "prepared" to rule over millions of people in the Millenium with god-like powers and what useful training did they receive? It seems like there should have been workshops on topics such as:
"Logistics in grain transportation for the American Southwest"
"How to deal with an armed rebellion"
"What type of execution method will maximize fear in the populace yet doesn't breed resentment"
"How to rule six million people living in a primitive society"
Yet, they were told that by being totally submissive to The Church and Its Ministry, they were learning how to rule the planet.
--> Beautiful, Paul! Perfect!
I've often wondered about those things myself. Armstrongists were such a cut above the rest, destined to be kings and priests in the world tomorrow that they needed to be guided into parking spots by a "baptized" member of the flock with a yellow plastic baton. We sharpened our speech with repetitons of "Thomas tatterfoot and his taut twine".
I can just imagine the "400" courses we would have received in our caves while at the Place of Safety.
>Chuckle<
It always amazes me to encounter people like Tom, who apparently thrives on Armstrongism, while some of the rest of us had to go through therapy to diffuse the damages which HWA's toxic religion inflicted upon us.
BB
Charlie
>>I can just imagine the "400" courses we would have received in our caves while at the Place of Safety.<<
You will just have to continue imagining, as you won't there to know. What a tragedy!!
BB
>>>It always amazes me to encounter people like Tom, who apparently thrives on Armstrongism, while some of the rest of us had to go through therapy to diffuse the damages which HWA's toxic religion inflicted upon us.<<<
The therapy has damaged your rational mine; if you ever had one.
VistaAdmin said...
>>Homosexuals are not going to corrupt heterosexuals, either.<<
But they will abduct other people's children, since they don't have any of the own, and bugger them to death.
I've never heard of that happening, are you sure you are not talking about pedophile priests?
They will meet together in bars, get drunk and behave like dogs in heat.
And you have never heard of heterosexuals meeting in bars and behaving like dogs in heat?
It should be obvious to any sensible person that if homosexuality and lesbianism were normal, and all people wallowed in the cesspit of it, the human race would be extinct in a couple of generations.
And if all people were right-handed there wouldn't be any left-handed people either. Get real, you are talking about only 5% of the population.
On second thoughts, perhaps not, as a "gay" scientist may be able to produce little boys to be abused by the happy, gay people. Who would want to live in such a world?
There you go again, confusing gay people with pedophiles. Maybe you don't know that pedophiles are heterosexual?
You are of those same false witnesses that accused Jews of kidnapping and cooking Christian children and a main cause of the holocaust. Those Christ killin' Jews!
Hate witches.
Hate left-handed people.
Hate Jews.
Hate black people.
Hate homosexuals.
Hate scientists.
Hate, hate, hate . . .
With all that hate going on, what happened to that Christian LOVE?
Tom,
Food for thought: Any time a religious cult / movement managed to "flee" somewhere to go to a "Place of Safety" as it were, it ended with the exact opposite of salvation.
Also since you seem to be so fascinated with gays: Riddle me which of the following is a worse sin:
Example 1: A homosexual couple that are both good citizens, productive, law abiding, generous, and charitable members of their community that adopt a crack-baby, raise it with love and give it a chance at life it would not have otherwise had.
Or
Example 2: A Heterosexual couple with a husband that has difficulty holding a job because of the sabbath and providing for his family due to paying outrageous tithes, is a drunk, abuses his wife and children, threatens them all with the lake of fire if they fall away from the 'truth', and wears his sabbath best while hypocritically giving sermonette's on "God's way of Life". A wife that turns a blind eye to her husband's behavior because she must submit to him and be silent in the church but goes every sabbath and smiles as she serves at coffee hour or as the speech gestapo in the mother's room.
In armstrongism, dysfunctional and abusive heterosexual couple would be held up as more righteous.
That is upside-down.
My-two-cents
>>You actually think this way about everyone else's thoughts or opinions,<<
Now this comment is worth much more than your nom de gueree. Although I doubt you appreciate its value.
However, you're right. I don't have any time for opinions about the teachings of the bible, which is God's instruction manual to man on how to live virtuously, and worship the one true God.
Opinions are the ignorance we(I hope you notice the "we.")express when we don't know the truth. For if we know the truth, why would we need an opinion?
>>>while you exalt your own thoughts and opinions as being always right and always superior to everyone else's.<<<
As stated above, I don't have any opinions about the teachings of the bible. The things I say can be found in the pages of the bible, and therefore, they are not my thoughts or opinions, but God's truth.
I can, to some degree, understand your frustration; as you struggle to discuss spiritual matters while weighted down by a carnal mind. As a consequence, you are ill equip to defend your ill conceived opinions against the divine revelation.
The solution to your frustrations is, a Road to Damascus experience. But, sadly, it would appear that you, Douglas, Bill, Charlie and others are on the road from Damascus, which lead to oblivion.
"You will just have to continue imagining, as you won't there to know. What a tragedy!!"
If I found myself stuck in cave with a bunch of Armstrongists while the world outside burned, I would slit my wrists with the nearest sharp object at hand.
Tom, if there was a Tribblation, you would have about as much chance at spending it in a Place O' Safety as you would being Raptured up into Heaven.
But this is what will really happen: One day you will die and that will be it. You will have spent your entire life (wasted it) wrapped up in the delusional world of Armstrongism, a prison that you are quite unaware of. This is a good thing, because if your God were real, you would burn in the Lake of Fire, make no mistake about it. You are not a child of God anymore than you are a Christian.
Paul
Paul
Tom:
"Nom de plume" would be the correct french phrase for a pen name. "Nom de guerre" would reflect a name someone took as their battle moniker.
Please tell us which version of the bible you consider to be God's word and inerrant. That would go a long way in these discussions as we could point out the contradictions and errors in that version. You should note that even atheists (which I am not) do not believe the bible to be a work of total fiction. Your very narrow mind paints with a very broad brush.
VistaAdmin said I can, to some degree, understand your frustration; as you struggle to discuss spiritual matters while weighted down by a carnal mind. As a consequence, you are ill equip to defend your ill conceived opinions against the divine revelation.
You are obviously just ignorant - not stupid, not crazy, not dumb. Just ignorant. You don't know me, so to judge that I am speaking from a carnal point of view (only God knows my level of conversion and I am thankful that determination is not yours) is just ignorant.
Since you claim to read the Bible, perhaps you should review, in order,
Matthew 7:16
Matthew 15:18
Galatians 5:19-21
Galatians 5:22-23
I don't see the fruits of God's spirit in you as you spew out venom, hatred, attacking, judging, and a total lack of any kind of love toward anyone but yourself. And you DO love yourself. Reminds me again of an angel once named Lucifer.
Your words show what's in your heart and that's incredibly tragic because it's clear you've missed the big picture altogether.
Charlie corrected your use of a word that means "battle name," but I suspect that's exactly what you intended because you come here to just to randomly fight and argue with absolutely no considered thought or in-depth study to back up your very un-Christlike views.
Perhaps if we closely considered the question "Why are Unicorns hollow?" we could all see the deep nature of the questions we wrestle with and a more profound and satisfying perspective may be found in all these matters of belief.
Tom, at least from the things he writes, comes across as the most self-righteous, smug, arrogant, blind-sided individual who contributes to this blogsite. Now, quite often there is a bit of mud-slinging here, but essentially contributors try to hold to dignified discussion. Tom refuses. One can never detect a smile from his writing. Not even a smirk, really. Tom will flame me, as he flames everyone, but I maintain that he writes from a position of barely suppressed rage. The would-be self-assured tone he takes masks that rage. Going further, this may be repression rather than suppression.
Tom may also feel quite lonely, because when one reads his comments, the impression emerges that in this universe, only he and God matter. He doesn't seem to mention fellowship with anyone else. I believe that he's stated that he is not part of any group. His attitude reminds me a lot of a certain late-1960s student at Pasadena who long ago displayed a hard coldness, and I believe still does to this day. Byker Bob may recognize the person I'm referring to. Again, that person's hardness came from repressed rage, in my opinion. (Yes, Tom, it's just opinion.)
Tom, you obviously know yourself better than do we. But maybe we can see things about you that you cannot. Just as all of us greatly benefit from knowing how others see us. You probably don't wonder or care why you frustrate us. It decidedly is NOT because your seeming understanding and superior spirituality threatens us. Actually, for some of us here, your attitude reminds us too much of ourselves when we were dedicated, devout Armstrongists. You sound a lot like myself some 35 years ago, in my late teens and early twenties, certain that I was in God's exclusive club, and that I knew more about what really counted than anyone on the "outside". Fortunately, I began to throw off those mental chains while still a young man, although as byker bob observes, not without a long period of required psychological healing. I wonder if you could survive being cut away from the chains that you have forged for yourself.
OK, Tom, flame away.
Camfinch writes Tom will flame me, as he flames everyone,
True. But look at the great company, from his own words:
But, sadly, it would appear that you [mytwocents], Douglas, Bill, Charlie and others
you're in! I'd rather be in this group than in Tom's group.
"not without a long period of required psychological healing."
And why does it take so long for some? Is it our great disappointment? Is the mind virus just that potent? I suppose the theological pathways in our brains are well worn and where the mind goes first for answers and then remembers that's not where they reside any longer.
It is scary to let go of cherished beliefs. Once one sees that the Bible itself is not reliable or any more authoritative than other works, it can be quite a shock if one was brought up in some faith from a child.
Most fundamentalist ministers are angry people and attract other angry people who want to share in the imagined power they have to control the universe and the gods that inhabit it, even if they aren't real.
I find leaving childish things behind painful even yet, but it is not due to any factor that down deep I still believe it. I may have wanted to, but when it is gone, it is gone.
>>>But they will abduct other people's children, since they don't have any of the own, and bugger them to death. They will meet together in bars, get drunk and behave like dogs in heat.<<<
I for one know you to be a liar. God condemns liars like you. Oh wait, you are an Armstrongite so you are therefore perfect in God's sight. You are the chosen race, the chosen church, the chosen people. God has a better word for you....vomit.
Gays aren't out abducting children and 'buggering' them. Statistics show that the broad majority of abuse case are from heterosexual men and women. Pedophiles usually are heterosexuals.
All the known child abuse incidences in Armstrongism (and there was LOTS) where all by parents or siblings. Child abusers are still prevalent in Meredith's church (he employed one as one of his right hand men) and in Flurry and Pack's church. The more oppressive and controlling a cult is the more abuse that occurs (whether it is child or spousal).
Armstrongites have a dark history of spousal and child abuse. It is also rank with drunkards and gluttons.
As for alcoholics. I saw more alcoholics and drunken ministers and Evangelists than I EVER have in the community around me. Feast sites were filled with drunkenness and gluttony. Two more sins that Armstrongites are guilty of.
You are just further proof as to why I left the absurd and illogical teachings of Herbie and crew. God reigns supreme, but certainly NOT in Armstrongism. You can keep your degenerate 'god'.
Im Jealous and Envious!
Tom has not flamed me yet, and Im feeling left out!
Please flame me Tom so that I can be just like all the other kids and be in the "Dissident Elite" .
Lussenheide
Tom,
I really can't believe there could be such a person as you! Are you sure you are not attempting to parody Armstrongism to make it look even more ridiculous than it actually was and is? Did you ever go by the name T & L on some of the WCG recovery forums?
I believe Camfinch did an excellent and very accurate psychological profile on you. If so, you are probably basking in the limelight as a result of all the attention (albeit negative) which is currently being bestowed upon you!
What do you think the gospels would read like if Jesus and the disciples were like you, Tom?
BB
By the way, old buddy byker bob, the guy you would've known from the late 60s, just before I arrived at Pasadena, has the initials H.R.
Bob, a couple of hours ago I was catching up on comments here, and had the same wonderings as you expressed, including whether Tom might be T & L, or a clone thereof.
Whether or not Tom is for real, his(?) posts certainly serve to illustrate what a "fine" attitude a "good" member of old-school WCG had.
If he's for real, I think it's good, in that it's a reminder of the odd hatefulness that "old-school WCG" planted in people's minds.
Many people have left such a mindset, and some have more difficulty in moving beyond it than others.
I think Tom's posts may help some to see the ridiculousness in the attitude inculcated in old-school WCG, and help them to grow and move beyond it.
Blessings and greetings to all of those of good will here at this wonderful forum. I would have to say that only leaves one person here out: The game playing psychopath, but whatever.
1) One would have to prove that those living in California were Israelites for the drunken sot six pack hedonistic hypocrite Blurry Flurry to be anything but a liar and deceiver.
2) Gerald Flurry has committed many acts worthy of death -- driving drunk being among them -- even as Herbert Armstrong did profane that which was holy which would have cut him off from the congregation such as the documented occurrence of his eating a donut and drinking a cup of coffee on the Day of Atonement. I had occasion to have some exchanges with his personal chef, so don't bug me.
3) Gerald Flurry claims to be "That Prophet" -- a claim to be Jesus Christ in the flesh. He is an idolatrous blasphemer.
4) At no time can it be shown that the State of California attacked the Living God. By the Constitution of the United States, which guarantees the separation of Church and State, no such attack would either be legal -- and let's face it, reasonably -- would be possible. God can take care of himself. What the State of California did do is attack a religious huckster con man. Unfortunately, they didn't stick to their guns. Maybe that's why Californians are having such trouble [for the dense: sense the irony, folks].
Now there is a certain one who has confidence in himself but feels free to smear the godly. God does not execute judgment speedily, therefore, he feels perfectly free to commit evil by serving his Lord and Master, Satan the Devil by lying, slander, deception, theft. If I didn't know any better, I'd think we were dealing with a certain Australian cultmeister who pretends to be righteous but has been exposed for doing the same thing as the sociopath on the warpath here has been doing. Except for a name tag, no one can tell these people apart. This person is not a "righteous" Job, so God is probably going to ignore him for all eternity. That's just fine by us. It is probably the case that God hates others beyond just hating Esau.
It should also be pointed out that this Biblical Illiterate has missed the point of Scripture in that Jerusalem is the Burden to the nations. The real Israelites are in Israel. If you want to go bother someone, go bother the *real* chosen people, rather than the ones made up by a delusional cultic psychopath whose prophecies are an embarrassment to anyone ever sucked into his wickedness of psychotic fantasies.
It should be noted that Armstrongists missed predicting the tragedy of September 11, 2001. They missed it because of their inattention to Scripture which makes it clear that those descended from Ishmael and Esau are the ones who will bring vengeance against the children of Israel. Islam was just ignored, in favor of the ever popular practice of throwing rocks at the Roman Catholic Church -- an easy target, to be sure, but it is unwise to ignore the clear and present danger in those filled with hate, poised for jihad against the entire world.
There are those who could boast that they keep the Sabbath and Holydays [and in fact, do not eat out on them -- but use the Sabbath as a joy and delight], who have helped the fatherless and the widows. The fatherless, by teaching them skills to get and keep a job, writing resumes for them and even writing recommendations for them that helped them start a career. The widow, by faithfully picking them up each week and taking them to services for years and years. There are those who have visited those in prison at McNeil Island to give them hope and lift their spirits. There are those who have worked mightily doing exploits to save the people of God from evil cult leaders in the face of powerful opposition of wickedness in high places. There are those who could boast that they have helped the sick and infirm and comforted the weak, fed the hungry and clothed the naked -- and done so consistently for many years.
Yes, there are those who could boast of their faith through the Works of God done in them, with the fruit of the Holy Spirit. But they won't because they are too modest and respect their Creator to much to detract from the marvelous works of their wisdom. Besides, it might detract from the perfectly lovely wonderful day successfully loading down the ServerPac for z/OS 1.9. The Wonders of the Master Technologist of this Universe never cease to amaze in His Great Beneficence to share His Technological Knowledge as well has His Mercy and Goodness.
One thing though.
These people accounted to be righteous by God -- and not of their own works -- are not fond of false prophets nor the people who worship them in their idolatry.
In the end, it won't matter: They will be forgotten in the scheme of things as nuclear ash under the feet of the righteous [unless, in the unlikely event of repentance taking hold of them and their seeking the Eternal with all their might and not leaning to their own understanding -- but in this case, repentance as a Gift of God is obviously being withheld because of the arrogance of the sinner].
I've already made a mental note that some of the behavior we've seen here from one person is quite typical of a practicing alcoholic.
It might be time for him to consider rational recovery, if not for alcohol, then Anglo-Israelism.
>>>By the way, old buddy byker bob, the guy you would've known from the late 60s, just before I arrived at Pasadena, has the initials H.R.<<<
If this is the HR that I know then this freak has a web site that is filled with all kinds of racist degenerate Armstrongite trash. He is even claiming he is Elijah III.
Anonymous said...
Perhaps if we closely considered the question "Why are Unicorns hollow?" we could all see the deep nature of the questions we wrestle with and a more profound and satisfying perspective may be found in all these matters of belief.
Don't be silly, everyone knows Unicorns are hollow to hold pink marshmallows! Don't you read scripture?
The real question is why their horns are are exactly 21 pyramid inches? Remember 21 is 3 x 7 which we all know are two significant prime numbers! Adjusting for time differentials in the position of the Star Sirius (the dog star),in the year 1804 BC, one can easily see the divine plan of prophecy!
To All
As I was having dinner with my family and preparing for the Sabbath, many of you appeared to have been outraged by my post to My-Two-Cents. But instead of addressing the points I raised in my post, many of you decided to abuse me and continue your vitriolic, irrational attacks on HWA.
For the record, it is not my responsibility to defend or condemn HWA. "Who am I to judge another man's servant? Before his master, he stands or falls," is Jesus' admonition to us all. However, it seems that it is an admonition that most people here, are either unwilling or incapable of obeying. But I will not be joining you in condemning God's servant.
In addition, if people objectively and impartially read my posts, they will have to admit that I have not "flame" anyone. I have been critical of people's ill conceived opinions. And those that persist in trying to defend their silly ideas, have met with the ridicule that they justly deserved.
The righteous has a duty to laugh at the stupidity of the wicked. I could cite several passages of Scripture to prove this point, but it is likely to be a waste of my time, as most of the people here are, sadly, ignorant of the wholesome teaching of the bible. And no wonder, since they spend so much their precious time reviling HWA, who did nothing to harm them.
Tsk, tsk. So typical of an alcoholic.
One wonders whether when thrown into the Lake of Fire, the alcoholic will burst into flame.
Tom so righteously saith:
And no wonder, since they spend so much their precious time reviling HWA, who did nothing to harm them.
Tom, you are certifiable. Either that or you are a really good chain yanker. Or you may be both.
You also avoided my question about miscegenation (again). Since you seem to think this is a sin, I will ask you one last time:
- was Noah "pure" in his generations, as your hero Armstrong taught, and thus only the white race exists today . . .
- or did Noah's sons have mixed marriages, and thus old Noah couldn't even control his "pure white" generations?
This is your Bible conundrum. Because either way you answer, just like the late Herbster, you're screwed. He also tried to have it both ways. Which is probably what drove him to insanity. (Either that or it was from flubbing his dong too much.)
Many of the people here began their journey away from Armstrongism when they got off the sauce. They may never have made the association, but once the mind cleared up and they could focus, they began to see that something was clearly wrong with Armstrongism.
In this particular topic, we are discussing the ravings of the alcoholic lunatic, Gerald Flurry, who certainly portrays some of the worst of class of Armstrongism, but is not alone.
For those of us who have been managers in large American corporations among the Fortune 200, alcoholism as fundamental to the functioning of the corporation is all too familiar. It should be so very clear that the same mechanisms which fuel the multinational corporate world were fundamental to the Radio Church of God and Worldwide Church of God. The Alcoholic Church Corporate was primed for abuse from the very beginning from the top down, beginning with Herbert Armstrong.
While alcoholism in itself is not a complete panacea for explaining the abusive behavior of the Church Corporate, it certainly is a solid foundation upon which to build. Certainly, narcissists, psychopaths, sociopaths, drug abusers and the mentally ill ministers and administrators contributed to the entire picture, but still....
There were three classes of abuse within the WCG: The alcoholic abuser, the abused and the alcoholic abused abuser. Many of you here have your own stories of the abuse from ministers fueled by alcohol, so you can relate them as relating to this topic as you see fit. The alcoholism does explain a lot: The misspent funds, the wife swapping, the terribly abusive behavior, the stupid rules, the penchant for obsessing on death, disease, destruction, devastation [even as Flurry obsessed on the fires in California], the powerfully para military hierarchy with abuse from the top down. In this sick dysfunctional venue, there is little escape unless you stop drinking yourself and leave the whole mess behind.
Scripture says that drunks won't be in the Kingdom of God. One can take some comfort in the belief in God that He is not going to allow the continuance of abuse for all eternity. Nevertheless, the damage has been done: Many turn to atheism, agnosticism, deism and to non Christian religions because of the association of the terrible abuse from ministers with the Character of God. It is an unfortunate association and a rationally unnecessary one: Herbert Armstrong acted on his own apart from God and his behavior should not be blamed on God.
The sickness of the dysfunctional Alcoholic Church Corporate is best betrayed by a father who does not do anything about his own alcoholic son who date rapes the AC coeds who then go on to become wives of evangelists who must, in turn, be subject to the man who date raped their wives before they were married. Tolerating this is not only really really sick, it sets up a dynamic from which the abused ministry cannot escape without damage to themselves and their families. It is what is called a "Hobb's Choice": Damned if you do and damned if you don't and damned if you say anything about it. You sit there and tolerate it like a good dog. Then when you have your own congregation, you take out your displaced anger on the congregation and make them the helpless abused along with yourself.
This scenario is only obvious to those who have abandoned the idolatry of living such a sick dysfunctional environment; the rest defend it to the hilt, claiming that the man who founded it all never did any harm to anyone. The Bible simply became a wrongly used tool to continue a terrible addiction and enforce abuse on anyone vulnerable.
The righteous has a duty to laugh at the stupidity of the wicked.
That is why I find you hilarious.
Stinger
>>>You also avoided my question about miscegenation (again). Since you seem to think this is a sin, I will ask you one last time:
- was Noah "pure" in his generations, as your hero Armstrong taught, and thus only the white race exists today . . .<<<
Lots of people are ready to ask questions, who are often unable to understand the answers. In addition, you already have cocooned in your prejudiced mind an answer to your question, and nothing I say will changed that.
As I was having dinner with my family and preparing for the Sabbath
Just like the Pharisees in Christ's time.
Next, no doubt, he'll be proving his humility by giving three examples.
Lots of people are ready to ask questions, who are often unable to understand the answers.
As opposed to those who ask no questions because they think they have all the answers, make outrageous unsupportable statements of fools and are unable to understand standard common wisdom.
The reason that no one can understand the answers he gives is because they wouldn't make any sense, even if he answered the questions instead of evading them: More psychopathic games.
nothing I say will changed that
Obviously, this is someone for whom English is not his first language.
It's like trying to explain rainbows to earthworms.
Concerning Flurry's claim that the fires are a result of God's Wrath, there are two items:
1) My wife pointed out that such observations are, in her words, the result of "chemically induced mania" -- a good call considering Gerry's alcohol addictions;
2) In at least two cases, the fires were set by arsonists. What are we claiming here? That God is using the wicked to punish the unrighteous? Someone needs to go read the Book of James.
It's like trying to explain rainbows to earthworms.
Exactly, and it is so simple that little children can explain rainbows these days.
Just that one thing should call into question the validity of the Bible.
When the book was written, circa 600 - 700 BC, could the Hebrew priests explain the rainbow? No, they couldn't, and that's why "God did it".
Does it take away any of the rainbow's beauty to know the truth about it?
Science is a good thing, ignorance and superstition is not a good thing.
Corky,
First we would have to find a common language with which to communicate.
Unfortunately, it is clear that is not an option.
Even in this enlightened world, there are those who cling to the Dark Ages with whited knuckles.
Doug,
We have the perfect examples, Judaism and Mohammedism. Look what ignorance and superstition did to that part of the world.
Really, it's all Judaism. Islam and Christianity are copy-cats. The rejection of knowledge is at the bottom of all superstition.
We should use what we do know to discover what we don't know instead of trying to use what we don't know to reject what is already known.
I don't understand how that in a rich and powerful nation, with compulsory education, we can have such ignorance and superstition as we see every day.
There is only one way that can happen - rejection of knowledge and the embracing of superstitions.
Douglas,
It has occurred to me that perhaps the 6-pack pro$it is behind the arsons. These fires could help the alcoholic Flurry appear to be an angel of light and inspiration to his dwindling flock of tithe slaves. What better way to re-enforce the ("that prophet") title of honor when his prophecies come to pass. Really, this is not beyond a sick and twisted mind. Just look how Herbert killed people off by his crap about no doctors. Legal murder in order to enforce fear and obedience.
Truly there is nothing new under the sun.
A man will do anything to save his own flesh.
Money is the root of all evil.
Let us look at Flurry's history.
Gerald never meets Herbert.
After the changes in the wcg, Flurry borrows a VW van, parks it in front of the wcg and pastes signs all over it that blast Tkach over the changes. (If you have seen the pictures it really is sad)
Gerald declares himself a prophet and starts his own little church of horrors.
Purges are now reminiscent of the wcg under Herbert's tyrannical rule.
Services are not to be taped.
The shroud of secrecy grows darker by the year. A veil of fear covers the flock. How can you ever leave?
Flurry has and continues to become more paranoid by the day. Ron Hubbard, Jim Jones, David Koresh, Herbert Armstrong. What did all these preacher types have in common?
Paranoia.
Drug or alcohol abuse.
End time prophecies.
Exclusiveness.
Remember rule number one as to cults. The guru is mentally ill.
The twisted minds of delusional men leads the flock down the long burdensome road of suffering and death.
It is but a short time before there is a mass murder in the PCG. Just watch this little church of horrors.
The only hope I can see for this group is the replacement of Gerald Flurry. But will the new guru also be mentally ill? Watch and see!
I don't understand how that in a rich and powerful nation, with compulsory education, we can have such ignorance and superstition as we see every day.
One answer is that 23% of Americans are functionally illiterate.
That may seem amazing and just plain wrong, so let me tell you a true story [as opposed to the stories you get from one person here].
There was a young man who gained a fair amount of attention in a local WCG congregation. He had a successful business and married a beautiful woman. His employees were young men in the church. His father was a deacon.
It turns out that he never learned how to read. He actually not only graduated from high school, but had won an award for sales in his high school.
He was very good at hiding his deficiency. He manipulated people to do his reading for him and tell him what the text said. He played me, when I wrote a survey for him. "I left my specs at home," he said. He made everything seem so plausible.
The postnote to all this is that when the WCG split, so did his wife and children and he lost his job with his life going into the dumper.
Often, we tend to overestimate people and think that at least they have a minimum of education, that they are reasonable and rational and that they can understand commonly accepted obvious wisdom of life.
Unfortunately, it is not true. It's not quite one-fourth of the adult population, but nearly that many adults cannot read or write and they hide it. This can even become a safety issue when guys cannot read the signs at work.
When I worked for Weyerhaueser, I headed up a $750,000 project several states away at the largest mill of its type in the world. The mill Controller told me that when the Corporation came in 1981 to build the mill, the local illiteracy rate was 55% of the adult population. As a result of the mill, 20 years later, the illiteracy rate dropped to 45%. Nevertheless, many of the workers in the mill could not read or write. The fork lift operators moving those 10 ton rolls of paper from the end of the line to the railroad cars or trucks would determine where the rolls were to be taken by having memorized the symbols on the labels on the paper rolls. They would not recognize the plant names, just the symbols on the roll.
Far too often, particularly here where most forum members are far advanced above the norm, there are those who simply don't have the mental tools to comprehend what is conveyed here.
Far too many who don't truly understand, loudly and obstinently object that they do, not knowing that they don't know.
It has occurred to me that perhaps the 6-pack pro$it is behind the arsons.
That's reasonably a bit extreme, even an environment which is as dysfunctionally unstable to an extreme as is the PCG. The rest of it, yeah, I think so.
There are times when I do find, though, that I miscalculated the depth of depravity which exists in the church of gods. That is the case with the CCg. It is beyond belief. The PCG is also extreme, but marginally not as bad. The RCG leader is just plain delusional in his being extreme.
These are opportunists who have been inculcated with the perspective that they don't actually actively cause problems [wait for the return of Christ to fix everything], they just sit there like spiders in their webs and wait for an event to occur so the event can be used to make hay while the fires burn. If they were Nero, Rome might not have burned, but they'd still be taking advantage of it by persecuting Christians afterwards.
Ex-COG Gay,
It must have been a hell trying to maintain your mental health in the Herbsters cult.
What is worse?
A man born with urges for other men or ministers that molest children?
What is the bigger sin?
A man born with urges for other men or ministers that beat their wives?
What grieves God more?
A man born with urges for other men or a guru that allows his members to die of something that is totally curable?
Which is more evil?
A god that creates a man who is attracted to other men then condemns any sexual contact with men...or a guru that creates an impossible situation for his flock and condemns them to eternal death if they ever quit giving money?
No wonder most who left armstrongism turn out to be atheists. It is the only logical choice.
The bible, a creation of man for the obedience and control of man. As for I, my choice is never again to be assimilated under any religious group.
The churches of god are like buying penny stocks. Even after all your due diligence (D&D) you find yourself holding the bag. Screwed again!
Douglas Becker said...
One answer is that 23% of Americans are functionally illiterate.
That's because 23% of America is from Mexico! They don't read English!
On Christian exclusiveness.....
Isaiah 65:5
"[Those] Who say, 'Keep to yourself, do not come near me, For I am holier than you!'
These are smoke in My nostrils, A fire that burns all the day.
“Whoever is near Me is near the Fire, and whoever is far from Me is far from the Kingdom (of God)!”
The Gospel of Thomas, 82.
Just to be safe, don't light any matches.
That's because 23% of America is from Mexico!
Very amusing, but untrue.
Well, OK, 23% of America is from Mexico, but that's not necessarily the ones that are illiterate -- and by illiterate we mean, like, can't read or write in any language.
Funny, though. Up until the Canadian dollar equaled the US dollar in value, there was quite an invasion of aliens from Canada, Eh? It's just that they seem so polite, no one cares.
Paul asked whether Californians are or are not being punished for sin: What would Jesus say?
Luke 13:4 " Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?"
Jesus did not come into the world to condemn the world, but to save it.
"Jesus did not come into the world to condemn the world, but to save it."
I hope he hasn't forgotten where he left us!
Righteous Tom saith :
Lots of people are ready to ask questions, who are often unable to understand the answers.
Try me, Tom.
But I'm still waiting for your learned answer.
Any answer, Tom.
For the nTH time, where does scripture describe miscegenation as "sin?" So far, we only know that this "sin" is in your own (and the Herbster's) righteous mind.
"One answer is that 23% of Americans are functionally illiterate."
I don't think so, because there are plenty of Christians who can read.
Paul
Stinger,
I mentioned this on another forum we're both on, but it bears repeating for Tom's benefit here.
The fact is that in the 1970s, the WCG did an in depth study regarding miscegenation, and actually reversed their teaching on that topic. They also did this with their teachings on divorce and remarriage, and on the doctrines regarding faith healing/the medical profession.
Dave Pack, at least as I understand his teachings, has basically "restored" the teachings of HWA from the "back on track" era. Gerald Flurry, otoh, has gone back to the pre-1975 extremely toxic doctrinal approaches of HWA, meaning that his followers are not allowed to marry outside of their own ethnic group, are forbidden to remarry if they've ever been "bound" before, and are not allowed to seek medical attention for totally curable illnesses.
Most reasonable people are going to see such extreme practices as being simple minded fanaticism. It's also anti-Christian, because such beliefs cause the puffed up ones to look down on, or see even some of their fellow believers as being less than. The Bible teaches us to esteem others as being better than ourselves, and this includes those of the various ethnic peoples who happen to fall outside of HWA's group of falsely contrived "Israelites". The Apostle Paul even writes that there are no Jews and Gentiles. The important thing is what's in the heart.
BB
So is "Tom" Wade Cox?
Bob
>>I mentioned this on another forum we're both on, but it bears repeating for Tom's benefit here.<<
Sorry to disappoint you, but it was of no benefit to me, as I am not interested in the subjects on which you, Stinger, Douglas and others are fixated.
"So is "Tom" Wade Cox?"
I'll say it again; Tom is for real. If he isn't, then he has been pulling everyone's leg for a long time now on many different forums.
Why is this so surprising to anyone? I have met others like him. Tom Mahon is the end result of Armstrongism.
Paul
"So is "Tom" Wade Cox?"
Absolutely not!
He thinks like Cox, acts like Cox, uses the same illogic as Cox, but has nowhere near the level of sophistication. He simply can't be Cox because he isn't smart enough. He can't even be one of PoppyCox's lackeys because he defends Herbert Armstrong.
Well, not exactly.
He just says that Herbert Armstrong never harmed anyone, did great things and besides we shouldn't judge another man's servant. Shouldn't judge another man's servant? Why, that would mean that Herbert Armstrong was serving a man and not God. That is not true. Herbert Armstrong was his own self-made man who founded his own man-made religion -- which, as most man-made religions has absolutely no worth and has been spread to the wind.
Let us pause a moment here and consider the documentation from "Tangled Web" and the court proceedings from the Ramona divorce for which the membership paid a cool $5 million. No harm, eh? $5 million. Well, it has been established in the mouths of two witnesses thus far that Herbert Armstrong admitted to incest. There are also other sources, but two should suffice.
Here's the deal: Herbert Armstrong should have been discovered, tried, convicted, sentenced and sent to prison. There, he would be among those who have their own sense of justice and would have dealt it upon the lowest of the low of that class society -- they would have murdered him, and that would have been the end of his rebellious Satan directed religion. [Herbert Armstrong didn't call Ambassador College "Satan's College" for nothing: Herbert Armstrong was not another man's servant, he was the servant and slave of the Devil.]
So Herbert Armstrong got away with 10 years of incest until the day that his son-in-law came into his office and waved a gun around. We note that the Apostle Paul set Elymas, the false prophet, loose blind for a season. One might suspect that the judgment against false prophets is to become blind. Certainly, Herbert Armstrong was legally blind for a year or two up to his death. For those who want to believe the mythology, Moses had a keen eye for the ladies up to the time he died at 120 years old. It should also be noted that the great false prophet, Roderick Meredith, was going blind, but thanks to some manipulation of modern medical science apparently escaped the wrath of God and remained sighted as a blind guide. Until now. What medical science could cure with laser surgery, diabetes will take care of.
Now at this point, let us note Deuteronomy 18:20-22:
But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
Not only that, but the instruction was to stone him to death.
Now note that Jesus said in Matthew 7:15-20:
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
And indeed, we know the fruits of Herbert Armstrong: the tree has been hewn down. The WCG he built does not exist. His rebellion against the Church of God Seventh Day has not stood. Moreover, that he is a dead false prophet is just icing on the cake.
What a sleaze.
And now we have this spiritual midget declaring utter nonsense, but refuses to obey plain Scripture. Beyond just being a liar and playing games, he supports the children of the Devil and is, himself, in the bonds of Satan. Therefore, according to Scripture we turn over to the Devil for the destruction of the flesh that his spirit may be saved.
Ironic parody or not? You decide. Time will tell.
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Particularly those who, like the Pharisees, kept the Sabbath with their families and declared their righteousness in front of all, as if their law keeping could get them into the Kingdom of God. They will see those they despise and slander go into the Kingdom ahead of them -- if they make it at all, and right now, their prospects don't look a bit promising.
No, Tom is no Wade Cox, but for all the trappings, the end result will be pretty much the same -- not that they will believe: The only thing they understand is massively superior force. They have faith in their own force and anyone who opposes them are discounted. It is because fools only listen to what they want to hear. The study has demonstrated that the incompetent have no view to their own incompetence until they attain a certain level of competence to see how incompetent they really are:
Unskilled and
Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to
Inflated Self-Assessments
Righteous Tom saith:
Sorry to disappoint you, but it was of no benefit to me, as I am not interested in the subjects on which you, Stinger, Douglas and others are fixated.
Well, that's really too bad, Tom. Because if you were interested you just might learn a thing or two. One of them being, you know an awful lot that just isn't so. Just like all the other ACOGers.
Ok, no sense in getting between a man and his bibli-idolatry and his puffed up, spiritual pride, the final end product of the creed I call Armstrongology. You are a perfect example of how you could take every last morsel of leaven out of your physical house, but your spiritual house would still look like the Good Year blimp.
Mr. Becker
Well, well, well, I could see the steam rising from your head as you typed your latest harangue. I was almost tempted to style it, A celebrated harangue, but it does quite fit that genre. You would need some training in art of polemics before any of your tirades could be termed, celebrated.
Still, you need not despair that your efforts were ignored, I read every word of it, and fell about laughing.
The things you say about HWA, I have no knowledge of them, and don't really care whether they are true or not. Others have made the same assertions on other forums, and my reaction then is as it is now. I don't care.
HWA has been dead for over 21 years. Yet you and others are fixated on his alleged sins. How this fixation helps you is a mystery to me. I would have thought that your life and time would be more productive if you and your admirers were posting messages on how we can live a better Christian life, so that we may please God in all we think, say and do.
Why are you not fixated with the sins of King David, or the Apostle Peter and Paul? King David seduced Basheba and arranged for her husband to be killed, yet God forgave him and preserved his kingdom. Peter denied Jesus, yet Jesus gave him the keys of the kingdom, and Paul admitted to King Agrippa, that he imprisoned many of the saints, caused some to blaspheme and sanctioned the death of others. Yet on his death bed he said, "There is laid up for me a crown of righteousness..."
If what you say about HWA is true, how do you know that God didn't treat HWA the same way he treated King David, the Apostle Peter and Paul?
Now I know that you will duck this question, and returned to your tirade of abuse until the cacophony becomes a din, and God has to silence it.
Yeah, David, a man after God's own heart.
I reckon so, they were both into mass murder and genocide.
Actually Tom...I'm kinda starting to like your church. You can kill, deny, betray, (well not if if you are Judas but we need a symbol of bad jews), persecute, hate, lie, steal, give people the shaft, spend money that doesn't belong to you for things you don't need and keep asking for more, maybe sacrfice your kids, your time and your life, and pretty much be any kind of jerk you want to be and get forgiven and rewarded big time and often.
Of such is the Kingdom of Heaven!
Don't let these guys bug you. You have a great thing going there in your church. You are right. All the great leaders in God's church have done all these things and more! I don't even think you can be a leader or true apostle if you don't at least kill one or two people in your life. Pter certainly killed his two and Paul a few for sure! No wonder James couldn't keep his leadership of the early church! He was just not enough of a putz!
Really it is the fault of the "one true church" doctrine which made us all go crazy believing we were the special ones. It somehow gave us licence to treat other people with disrepect and disdain.
It is still sad that members of the Churches of God still harbour resentments towards people who do not meet their standards of good behaviour.
Times have really moved on, even with some of us who still keep the Sabbath. The churches of God has had its fair share of people with moral failings so we as a community are not in a position to righteously judge any other person.
And I don't really care what problems or sins people have, it is not a barrier for us, but an opportunity to let us shine our lights in a dark world.
"The things you say about Hitler, I have no knowledge of them, and don't really care whether they are true or not. Others have made the same assertions at Nuremburg, and my reaction then is as it is now. I don't care."
"Really it is the fault of the "one true church" doctrine which made us all go crazy believing we were the special ones. It somehow gave us licence to treat other people with disrepect and disdain."
Actually it was the observance of the Law, just as it was with the Pharisees. God's True People obey His Law.
"It is still sad that members of the Churches of God still harbour resentments towards people who do not meet their standards of good behaviour."
Those standards being observance of The Law.
Paul
After reading Tom's apologetic post on HWA, I have to wonder, do they go by some pre-written form when it comes to making excuses for Herb? You have your "don't know about any of that and don't want to know" and "alleged sins" and "you people need to get over it and quit hatin'" and most importantly, "well, look at David." The only thing missing from Tom's post is "we all make mistakes." I guess that one is getting tireworn.
Paul
My UCG Pastor blamed the Southeast U.S. drought on Atlanta not repending of its sins -- such as holding "gay pride" celebrations.
Secondary blame fell on metro Orlando, for allowing the same sort of thing.
Paul,
You wrote: do they go by some pre-written form when it comes to making excuses for Herb?
Those who defend the herbster defend themselves. They are birds from the same flock. Like child molesters, these people cringe when one of their own is arrested or attacked. They must stick together for the common inexcusable defense.
One could compare the churches of god to the gay pride movement. They stand together defending their way of life (armstrongism) ignoring what the bible says about sexual perversion, drunkenness, greed, lust for the neighbors wife or husband (depends how ya swing).....the list is really endless when it comes to armstrongism. Such a evil should be judged.
Armstrong defenders say we should not judge Herbie. I say judge by his fruit. We do have 2 witnesses as to Armstrong's sexual crimes. Herbie never sued over the Tangled Web book. Why? Because if he did it would have caused his empire to collapse. His money machine would have ground to a halt.
Tom said:The things you say about HWA, I have no knowledge of them, and don't really care whether they are true or not. Others have made the same assertions on other forums, and my reaction then is as it is now. I don't care.<
You don't care if Herbie raped his daughter? Is this of god? Yes or no?
Your defense of Herbie is suspect. You give me the impression you are a evil malicious man. Do you share the same sins?
Tom Said: "If what you say about HWA is true, how do you know that God didn't treat HWA the same way he treated King David, the Apostle Peter and Paul?
Now I know that you will duck this question, and returned to your tirade of abuse until the cacophony becomes a din, and God has to silence it."
I'll tell you why Tom, because herbert the pervert never repented of his sins (Unlike David), that is why. He never tried to make amends with the people he screwed. If he couldn't buy someone off, he simply put them out of his church and / or put Ralph Helge into action.
Then of course he had his army of idiots, er, um, followers to defend him.
Tom, You are the person on this blog that ducks every question put to you. You are the one constantly making reference to some sort of calamity coming (very soon) that we will suffer and /or >gasp< silence us. The tone and content of your postings show the destructive result that comes from years of the armstrong brain-washing thought process, which is essentially the mental equivalent of going into a round room and trying to stand in a corner.
Do your children a favor and don't teach them armstrongism and don't take them to your church. They'll thank you when they grow up.
Do not take Tom's views seriously, because somewhere a village is missing their idiot.
Stingerski, Charlie, Paul, Becker,et al, SHUT UP!
If you were true Christians you shut up. But I am WRONG, so you will not shut up.
True Christians are taught not to keep hatred and forgive.
"A corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit". It's not just Armstrongism, it's the whole tree of Christendom. It's corrupt and has been for 1900 hundred years.
Every once in a while, a more evil branch of it shows up, like Armstrongism, to point out this fact.
The very foundation of being able to "sin" and then be forgiven for it and absolve oneself from all responsibility of that "sin" is evil in itself.
The good person who lives his life taking care of business and his family and who has never even heard of Jesus Christ gets thrown into the lake of fire. While an evil person can believe a bunch of bullshit and get forgiven and make it into the kingdom.
All depending, of course, on which branch of Christendom is talking. It could be that the good, honest person gets to spend eternity in hell while the forgiven sinner gets to go to heaven.
It's bullshit and it's wrong.
Anonymous 4:40 AM: How would a true Christian behave if he knew that one individual were on the blog attempting to re-deceive people back into a toxic and destructive false religion? Wouldn't the true Christian speak up?
You might also want to ponder this. Individuals who are coming out of such a destructive cult require years to shed themselves of the bitterness and hatred which are a natural byproduct of their experience. Often it requires therapy. Speaking out about the experience is also very therapeutic. I've even met some who have been freed from all the negative emotions, and have succeeded in building a new relationship with God. But, you've got to start somewhere. Recognizing and speaking out about deception, false prophets, and religious rape can be a good start.
There is a phenomenon amongst some rape victims. A small minority become promiscuous or predatory themselves. IOW, they embrace the general practice. Based on the postings of some of the still practicing Armstrong victims, I believe there is a religious parallel.
BB
I've been away from this site for a couple of days, but in perusing the comments made since my comment that the mean-spirited Armstrongist who was in Pasadena in the late 60's (and who worked on the Landscaping crew after his students days) has the initials H.R., I saw that someone inquired if H.R. is the same H.R. who maintains a bitter, often racist, website. Yes, that indeed is the selfsame person. His writings make Tom seem like a humble conversationalist who loves to engage in objective discussion!
Here is why the world doesn't need people stuck in ruts of denial. Here is why most on this blog are on the right track. Here is why abusive churches and organizations get call out on it in time and even though as noted, they seldom apologize or repent in any real sense to those they hurt.
"“Here’s to the crazy ones. The misfits. The rebels. The trouble-makers. The round heads in the square holes. The ones who see things differently. They’re not fond of rules and they have no respect for the status quo. You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify, or vilify them. But the only thing you can’t do is ignore them. Because they change things. They push the human race forward. And, while some may see them as the crazy ones, we see genius. Because the people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world are the ones who do.” —Jack Kerouac
PS
“To be nobody but yourself—in a world that is doing its best, night and day, to make you everybody else—means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight; and never stop fighting.” —Edward “E. E.” Cummings
“People spend a lifetime searching for happiness; looking for peace. They chase idle dreams, addictions, religions, even other people, hoping to fill the emptiness that plagues them. The irony is the only place they ever needed to search was within.” —Ramona L. Anderson
“People will do anything, no matter how absurd, in order to avoid facing their own soul.” —Carl Jung
Tom said,
"HWA has been dead for over 21 years. Yet you and others are fixated on his alleged sins."
Tom has a point, most of you folks need to move on and get a life...
Unless for some reason your life has to do with hurting people who hold to legitimate traditions.
Then shame on you.
"Tom has a point, most of you folks need to move on and get a life...'
Sounds like Dart. Or any other Armstrongist who doesn't like to be reminded of HWA and Co's foul deeds yet knows them to be true...and so wants people, in the guise of "moving on," to shut up about it. That way they can get on with good old Armstrongism (to varying degrees).
"Unless for some reason your life has to do with hurting people who hold to legitimate traditions."
What do you mean, "legitimate traditions?"
Paul
"Tom has a point, most of you folks need to move on and get a life...
Unless for some reason your life has to do with hurting people who hold to legitimate traditions"
I would ask that you define "legitimate traditions". And I'll ask, what is "legitimate" about the religion that HWA built?
This is a community here, made up mostly of those who were for varying numbers of years--some more, some less--in a trap in which we believed that one church, under one man, had all the relevant salvatory truth on offer. Regardless of the man's sins, real or alleged, the experience was one in which we are glad to have rid ourselves. We DO have our own lives, thank you. And that's part of this blogsite: the celebration of our freedom. Part of that celebration is to remind ourselves of the great harm that was part of the old regime. We don't revel in the old man's sins; but we support each other in the shared experiences that we have in having been a part of Armstrongism. There is a huge difference between remaining trapped in our anger, and simply having a community of those who have found freedom. This has been explained on various threads on this site many times.
"Tom has a point, most of you folks need to move on and get a life...
Unless for some reason your life has to do with hurting people who hold to legitimate traditions"
I would ask that you define "legitimate traditions". And I'll ask, what is "legitimate" about the religion that HWA built?
This is a community here, made up mostly of those who were for varying numbers of years--some more, some less--in a trap in which we believed that one church, under one man, had all the relevant salvatory truth on offer. Regardless of the man's sins, real or alleged, the experience was one in which we are glad to have rid ourselves. We DO have our own lives, thank you. And that's part of this blogsite: the celebration of our freedom. Part of that celebration is to remind ourselves of the great harm that was part of the old regime. We don't revel in the old man's sins; but we support each other in the shared experiences that we have in having been a part of Armstrongism. There is a huge difference between remaining trapped in our anger, and simply having a community of those who have found freedom. This has been explained on various threads on this site many times.
Hi Camfinch
"This is a community here, made up mostly of those who were for varying numbers of years--some more, some less--in a trap in which we believed that one church, under one man, had all the relevant salvatory truth on offer."
Most all Christian groups say that,
that they are one true church; be it Catholic, Protestant, Adventist, Jehovah Witness, Mormon, etc...
And it has been 21 years...
You need to make peace, stay away from Christian fundamentalists, and move on...
You really do need to move on...
This is interesting, hearing again from apologists for the Armstrong empire.
The "just get over it" and "get a life", and "too much time on your hands" arguments, along with others, are very familiar, and so typical of the arguments made from the adherents to the teachings of so many destructive cults toward those who have moved on in what they believe.
I think that such cheap shots are simply to try to silence criticism of [whichever] destructive cult, and an attempt to try and make it look like like there is something wrong with the critics.
I think, too, that for a cult apologist to strongly state that others are wrong(and "not worthy", lol!), is an attempt to bolster the cult's belief in him/her self.
I was doing a bit of research, and came across a sermon where Herb was being a major-league braggart, inserting himself into prophetic scripture, and claiming that he'd been invited to talk to someone who tells 1/4 of the world's population what to think. It plays on windows media player, and the addy is:
http://tinyurl.com/23tebe
Warning! It's 27:07 long, and who wants to listen to all that, so slide the button over to start at about 4:00, and only listen to 3 or 4 mins to hear what I refer to above.
Is that the pounding of the podium by GOD'S END-TIME PROPHET that I hear, as well as lots of total BS?
LOL!
PS: In this sermon, he certainly does "set dates", by saying that the Tribulation will probably start in the 80's, and if not, DEFINITELY in the 90's.
PSS: If you have trouble making that link work, go to:
http://tinyurl.com/ytjnje
and scroll down and click on Side 2 of the sermon entitled, "Receivership & Prophecy"
If I remember correctly "The David Defense" was one of the first articles ever posted to the Painful Truth.
Funny thing is, they still use it!
I just got off the phone with an Israeli who grew up on a kibbutz where virtually all the parents were holocaust survivors. Almost all of them still bear tattooed numbers on their forearms that cannot help but remind them of their years in death camps. Surely their experiences at the very least equaled the real or imagined horrors of "Armstrongism." I jest, poorly, but with a point.
He told me the world is changing so fast now that there is no time to waste rehashing WW2. For survival's sake they dare not forget; but staying abreast of this rapidly changing world provides no time for wallowing in victimhood. They're much too busy building and defending a new country, turning deserts into fertile gardens, pushing the cutting edges of medicine and technology forward, developing agriculture, making sea-water sweet -- and trying their best to love their neighbors as themselves. (Yes, that is what he told me. His father is Egyptian, his mother is Israeli, and he knows Arabic as well as Hebrew, so he has the means to hear both sides.)
I have to agree with his approach.
There is little time for advancement when morbidly absorbed in the wrongs of past experiences. Particularly in America where the right to freely choose one's beliefs is guaranteed by a Constitution and defended by the blood of an heroic military. If we made wrong choices in the past, we made them. It hardly makes sense to blame a dead man for our poor choices, if indeed they were poor.
In no way was the entire experience bad. Quite to the contrary. Yet even if the experience for some were almost altogether terrible, is the present served by interminable crying over the past? One mourns, even with profound sorrow for months on end if necessary, and then finds a way to move forward again. A dead man's past errors should not be allowed to haunt the present -- nor should his errors be seen as the only part of his legacy. A completely honest appraisal should measure both debits and credits.
On the former Pasadena campus, Maranatha High School is delighted with their part of the physical plant, Harvest Rock church and Victor Venor's California Philharmonic revel in the matchless acoustics and appointments of Ambassador Auditorium.
Exposure to the Bible, interpretive errors notwithstanding, should still be a boon for anyone who dares to exercise his or her God-given ability to think creatively, without fear, using the knowledge gained in that exposure. (By now we should all know that any tyranny over the human spirit is a profound and indefensible evil.)
Much along these lines can be learned from the spirit of contemporary Israel. The holocaust is gone forever. "Never again" is the new motto. NEVER again!
The ball is in Israel's court now; they have seized it and they are determined to run with it. They're home, finally, and home is where they'll build their lives anew -- profitably using all the skills learned in the countries from whence they came, including Hitler's Germany.
It's an attitude worth embracing.
SJS
>>There is little time for advancement when morbidly absorbed in the wrongs of past experiences.<<
Indeed! But I suspect that your words like mine will fall on death ears. The cabal of Douglas, Charlie, Stinger, Gavin and others have become ship wrecked on the jagged rocks of bitterness and despair, from which, sadly, there is no means of escape.
>>>Yet even if the experience for some were almost altogether terrible, is the present served by interminable crying over the past?<<<
Not to the Chosen Vessel. For he was inspired to write: "Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, I press towards the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus"(Phils.3:13-14).
Anyone who is of the same mindset as the Chosen Vessel, doesn't have time to wallow in the past, however painful in might have been.
>>>A dead man's past errors should not be allowed to haunt the present -- nor should his errors be seen as the only part of his legacy. A completely honest appraisal should measure both debits and credits.<<<
Will the cabal listen? I doubt it. They get a special pleasure from being pretended martyrs of so-called Armstrongism.
>>>If we made wrong choices in the past, we made them. It hardly makes sense to blame a dead man for our poor choices, if indeed they were poor.<<<
The cabal will have none of this, I can assure you. For even though they were not conscripted or coerced in to becoming member of WCG, and they were free to leave at any time, they still trumpet that they were detained against their will. They have obviously been blinded by bitterness.
If I may say so, your post was a breath of fresh air on beautiful, cold winter's morning. And it confirms that however evil and insane the world is, there are still a few people with a godlike mind to bring a balance perspective to the confusion that threatens to overwhelm us.
Tom Mahon
Tom,
Your views are the flatulence of Fascism.: A authoritarian religious ideology (generally tied to a cultist group) that considers individual and other church interests subordinate to the interests of the church leadership. Fascists seek to forge a type of church unity through oppression and coercion, usually based on ethnic, cultural, or racial attributes.
Fascism uses explicit populist rhetoric; calls for a heroic mass effort to restore past greatness; and demands loyalty to a single leader, leading to a cult of personality and unquestioned obedience to orders.
Now go in peace Tom and bow before your idol Herbert W. Armstrong. For in him is your opiate and strength!
"You need to make peace, stay away from Christian fundamentalists, and move on...
You really do need to move on..."
I made peace years ago. I stay away from fundamentalists of all stripes as much as I can, although I will from time to time have discussions with them.
I moved on long ago. Just because I and others here talk about the Armstrongite experience doesn't mean that we are psychologically trapped in it. I have a life that is completely removed from those old days.
Anonymous said...
"And it has been 21 years...
You need to make peace, stay away from Christian fundamentalists, and move on...
You really do need to move on..."
Yes, you do need to move on, but you won't will you? That's why we're not.
Yes, it's been 21 years since ol' Herb kicked the bucket and it's been 32 years since I left his cult. At least I'm out of it, which is more than you can say and I have moved on, which is also more than you can say.
That doesn't, however, mean I have forgotten and I promise you, we never will forget - so move on.
Smilinjacksprat & Tom,
A few items to note:
1) I have moved on from armstrongism and am very happy where I am.
2) Your argument(s) again, do not hold water. The Nazi's are gone and so are the death camps and the Israeli's / jews have another enemy to deal with. Armstrongism is still here. I would imagine that if your Israeli friend still had friends or family in a concentration camp, he would not feel inclined to avoid 'rehashing' the past.
3) I still have two people that I love very much that are in Hulme's version of armstrong's nightmare and they also dabble in Coulter's as well because Coulter is still fixated on prophecy. When I free them, you will no longer have to hear from me on these sites. Of course you have the option of not coming here at all.
4) Tom - You still haven't answered any questions put to you, yet you continue to roll out your judgements on everyone here. You are still acting like a man frightened of something.
5) armstrongism is a toxic and parasitic religion that slowly but surely poisons everything that it comes in contact with.
"3) I still have two people that I love very much that are in Hulme's version of armstrong's nightmare and they also dabble in Coulter's as well because Coulter is still fixated on prophecy. When I free them, you will no longer have to hear from me on these sites. Of course you have the option of not coming here at all."
Yeah, and I have friends who are Evangelical Protestants... and they voted for Bush !!!
How can I free them?
anonymous:
I voted for the ba$tard twice...something I have come to seriously regret. It was the right thing to do the first time around...a mistake the second.
How can you free your friends that voted for Bush?
Try having them read Washington's farewell address. They'll figure out where we Americans jumped the tracks from reading that.
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