After giving the Tyler-based Church of God, International a hard time about dropping the ball with its website, it seems only fair to note that the group is now back online.Worth the wait? Well, you can be the judge.
Accompanying the new look is a new quarterly magazine (PDF download) which seems to have an outreach focus designed to mesh with the Armor of God cable TV show. Considering the small size of CGI it's reasonably impressive (assuming there's an actual print edition). It compares favorably with UCG's Good News, and has a far fresher look than the LCG's Tomorrow's World. The last time I recollect CGI producing a slick, color magazine was back in the late seventies in the form of the ill-fated Twentieth Century Watch - before it evolved (or de-evolved) into a thin newsprint tabloid.
CGI is one of the few splinter groups that has no "big names" in the form of decrepit ego-driven evangelists caught in a time-warp from yesteryear. Quite a contrast to its foundation under GTA and Ron Dart.
83 comments:
Still when I see the simple, to me, format expressed in at least the NT of:
1. Time are difficult
2. God won't forsake us
3. There is a Kingdom to come
4. Humans get resurrected so death is a temporary inconvenience for humans.
5. Everyone gets a chance, each in their own order...
6. Evil won't win
7. Eternity will be educational and fascinating.
I want to believe it. However it ignores other realities that to me negate this all being so or the key players in the text actually being who they are said to be and knowing, from the real God, how it all is. I spare you. Most of you know me well enough to know where I see the chinks in the Biblical errancy armour.
On the other hand, there is the New, which is not new at all, WCG and their mindless blather on the "Surprising God Blog" which is open only to their ministers.
http://thesurprisinggodblog.wcg.org/
They have gone from Bible readers to Guru quoters without any supporting texts. Now Jesus defines the Bible not the Bible Jesus which conveniently does away with any concern for errancy issues and the general chaos of how we actually got the Bible and why. Now you just say, "well Jesus defines how we make the implausible, plausible." It's all quite amazing to me.
They talk of Peter, James, John and Paul as if they were all Calvinists or ancestors of Karl Barth. They see clearly in the NT what is not there....the oneness of God now threeness but still oneness. If you suggest that they have taken the Bible from monotheism to polytheism, they can just bullshit an answer and go on.
The idea that texts to promote certain evolving church teachings were inserted at the appropriate times and places escapes them. Well it escapes most people.
The local member here who took over as minister for what little there was left of the WCG here,has made it clear to me he and the local WCG think much of what this site promotes (Surprising God Blog) is bunk. Of course, I'm not sure going from a church of near 400 to about 15 or so is all that important either.
At any rate, I am not quite sure what I am trying to say but for something that seemed rather simple in the past, the New WCG has really managed to reinvent a wheel that falls off many people's wagons eventually when the talk really has no practical meaning for their real lives, hopes and dreams.
I've been around long enough to sense that when people give themselves such doublespeak in religion, it leaves a hole they won't talk about but is covered with false talk and double lives.
Religion is very screwey and I guess that is never going to change. And I don't know what the hell I am trying to say!
I guess I'm jealous guys from WCG can sit around and philosophize, read the gurus and chat and get paid for it. All that ever got me into was trouble not to mention a million miles driving between multiple congregations all over creation for absolutely nothing.
ok...sorry, it's morning! lot's of losses personally as others experienced too and I seem to get reminded of them most every day. They don't go away and never will as getting older will only remind me more and more of choices I wish I had not made, but had to I guess, and the lying liars who lied about some basic things.
argh....be patient with me! I'd have been more content digging up hominids in a real life. I miss teaching the encouraging and amazing things of life and a social network larger than two.
I also tend towards sharing too much at times, but that social network thing gets to me.
Actually I think I do know the source of this funk at the moment.
It's a combo of the "simplicity" of the CGI's new mag that I miss, and making the 'mistake' of reading John B's responses to Grant Spong on the Painful Truth site.."Ministerial Shootout"
Transitions in life can be messy and we wake up to different things in different ways and often out of order. The tone of it all got to me and "not reading that stuff anymore" came to mind and why I can't.
ok..all done now. I guess I can always punch those little garbage cans at the bottom of the posts!
dennisdiehl said:
>>>And I don't know what the hell I am trying to say!<<<
"Neither understanding what they say nor whereof they affirm," might have been the quote you were grouping for.
BTW, if it is not too late, it might be a good idea to enrol in basic English course, so that you may learn to write sentences that conform to the rules of syntax and grammar. For your solecisms are very embarrassing, especially for a former minister who were responsible for educating God's people.
The CGI is the most civil of the ACOGs, most contacts with CGI have been cordial.
However some are aware of an ego driven minister in the Chicago area that has some people uneasy.
DD wrote:
"John B's responses to Grant Spong on the Painful Truth site.."Ministerial Shootout"
Anyone have a link for this ?
http://www.hwarmstrong.com/grant-spong.htm
"...especially for a former minister who were responsible for educating God's people."
Splinter, meet Beam.
Ripley said...
"...especially for a former minister who were responsible for educating God's people."
>>Splinter, meet Beam.<<
The "were" refers back to the phrase, "you were a former minister." But I do concede that the word "was" would have been more grammatically correct.
However, even you with your cult like loyalty to Dennis is doing him a grave disservice by attempting to defend the indefensible. If you were a truly honest person, you would have to admit that the contents of Dennis' posts reflect a very disturb mind, and his syntax and grammar is appalling. And although people are willing to make allowances for fast writing and hasty editing on a blog, extremely poor syntax and grammar blur clarity of communication.
Sadly, none of you can be truly honest with Dennis or one another, because all human relationships are based on mutual deception. He doesn't like the truth, so you would never tell it to him. He loves to be flattered, so you flatter him. And he, in response, behaves the same way towards you. Therein lies the mutual deception.
On the other hand, genuine Christians are honest with one another, by speaking the truth in love. If their brothers or sisters are wrong, love demands that they say so. And if a Christian brother or sister is meek and teachable, they will welcome the correction and change their behaviour.
Insidious flattery is a tool of the devil, and woe to those who love it and use it!
Tom walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.
"the contents of Dennis' posts reflect a very disturb mind"
Yet another example of Tom's double standard.
Dennis Diehl,
I read all your posts, and I think you are the most honest and thoughtful of any WCG minister I have ever come across. The simplicity of the truth and hope that you summarized in your first post on this topic is re-freshing and encouraging.
I have learned many new things from you, and I relate personally because I have had many similar experiences in my corporate career and personal life. All WCG members were victims of a huge religious fraud.
Please disregard and ignore Tom Moron's self righteous dribble, and continue expressing yourself with your 1st amendment rights as you have done in the past.
Of course, I realize Tom Moron and other Armstrongites wouldn't know much about the 1st ammendment freedom of speech.
Richard
Herbert W. Armstrong business philosophy - "If you want to dine with the upper classes, you must lie to the masses".
Dennis waxed eloquently:
"On the other hand, there is the New, which is not new at all, WCG and their mindless blather on the "Surprising God Blog" which is open only to their ministers."
I am posting this anonymously for reasons which will soon be obvious. I have read this same comment from you, Dennis, in the past, so out of curiosity I went to the Surprising God blog and proceeded to sign in and post a mildly critical comment about some of their blather. I used my real name and expected to be rejected outright as I am not now, nor never have been an Armstrongist minister. Surprise, surprise, my comment was posted and is still there for all to read.
Maybe the surprising god who is the monitor was doing his job as well as most WCG ministry that day.
I don't see any non minister comments on SGB and I thought I knew them all that post there. Maybe I am missing something.
More power to ya if you got to comment.
Oh I may have found you in the older posts. If that's you. Good observation.
Tom sermonized:
"On the other hand, genuine Christians are honest with one another, by speaking the truth in love. If their brothers or sisters are wrong, love demands that they say so. And if a Christian brother or sister is meek and teachable, they will welcome the correction and change their behaviour."
Then, he sermonized some more:
"Insidious flattery is a tool of the devil, and woe to those who love it and use it!"
Tom, here is some truth spoken in love: perhaps you should practice what you preach. You flatter yourself continuously, and so here is a bit of non-flattery as an antidote:
"Neither understanding what they say nor whereof they affirm," might have been the quote you were grouping for."
This is not only a self-righteous statement, but you seem to be unable to spell correctly as well. Did you perhaps mean "groping"? And your inability to "write sentences that conform to the rules of syntax and grammar" has already been pointed out by others.
As I don't believe, by your own example, that you are either meek or teachable, and that your practice of Christianity would turn more against the faith than it would ever attract, I hold no hope that you will ever practice what you preach.
Bob E.
-=-=-
... "The hilarious thing about self-important self-righteous people is that they are so easily baited."
* TagZilla 0.066 * http://tagzilla.mozdev.org
Tom seems to be plagued today by the Karma Fairy
I was shocked at this rag. I would think Tom would be outraged. This is a major departure from good Armstrongism.
There are people of color presented in positive roles in the pages of this thing. There is one page where it shows a white girl touching a black boy.
Most XCOGs would never publish this kind of imagery for fear of having a revolt in the membership. I can recall the days back in the Sixties when he Good News magazine used a stock photo of a family at a barbecue and the hot dog buns were not whole wheat. Congregations were abuzz and there was a letter from the editor in the next issue of the GN to deal with all the inquiries.
Where are our atheists? Where are Corky and Paul? We need the existence of this rag to be denied so our minds can be eased.
-- Neo
I noticed the positive images of people of color too, along with a shot of a Hispanic woman holding a Spanish Bible. The "peaceable kingdom" illustration also shows the child as non-Anglo (at first I thought the reference might be to "The Jungle Book" and the character Mowgli!)
Does anyone know if this reflects the demographic of CGI's current membership?
Anonymous said...
>>>Tom walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.<<<
A biblical quote from one who no longer believes in the infallibility of the bible. What a laugh!
Richard said:
>>>Please disregard and ignore Tom Moron's self righteous dribble, and continue expressing yourself with your 1st amendment rights as you have done in the past.<<<
Freedom of speech is not a gift of the "1st amendment," it is a gift of God, you might be surprised to learn.
However, I am greatful to you for not boring us rigid with another inane extract from your unpublishable essays.
Back by popular demand thanks to Tom Moron, here is another excerpt from my unpublished essay, "My reflections of the Worldwide Church of God - 1972 In Prophecy! God's Practical Joke?":
Is There A Doctor In The House?
Fourth, the Worldwide Church had a very unhealthy view (literally) of the medical profession. Doctors were to be avoided. Prayer, fasting and faith healing were preached. The medical profession and divine healing were regarded as mutually exclusive to one another. Oddly, “prayer clothes” were used for anointing and prayer. I recorded in sermon notes a very specific statement that left a lasting impression on me made in F.K.’s January, 1969 sermon: “if you die in the hands of doctors, you will go to the lake of fire”. I remember recalling the sermon almost 15 years later at my own father’s funeral. My father, who converted to the Church late in life, died of colon cancer at a hospital “in the hands of doctors”.
Although I have no personal first hand knowledge, there were rumors of instances of members and children who died premature and unnecessary deaths due to the Worldwide Church’s teaching against the medical profession. Personally, I can believe these rumors are true until proven otherwise. The Church had a very casual regard for human life and
death. If a person died, it was believed to be God’s will that the person die rather than being healed. If the person was believed to be in good standing in the Church, then the person was believed to be qualified for the first resurrection into God’s kingdom and receive eternal salvation.
Thus, I was very surprised to read recently from various sources on the internet that Herbert Armstrong himself used the medical profession and used various medications later in life. I read about Armstrong having a heart attack in the late 1970s and going to a hospital. This was contrary to the church’s teachings of the 1960s and certainly the word “hypocrite” again comes to mind. I wonder how many other “ministers of God” who preached against the use of the medical profession in the 1960s don’t practice what they preached 40-50 years ago when confronted with their own life and death situations. They could certainly dish it out - as long as someone else’s life was on the line to die.
End Excerpt
Sorry Gavin for being off topic, but self righteous Tom Moron wanted another excerpt from my unpublished essay.
Richard
Gavin writes, "Considering the small size of CGI it's reasonably impressive (assuming there's an actual print edition)."
I visited Worldwide Church of God (Fraud) splinter CGI's website and clicked under churches. There is only a small handful of congregations, and only 4 "International" congregations (Jamaica, Philippines, Australia and Canada).
I don't mean to be unkind, but it doesn't sound very "International" to me. Perhaps it is like everything else that is Armstrong related - more "hype" than substance.
Richard
Don't usually comment, just check in and laugh at Gavin’s wonderful humor. but Dennis, me old mate, you are in overdrive, know how you feel been there done that for some forty years………………..my heart goes out to you in your pain, but hey! You also have a wonderful sense of humor, a really nice bloke……….so don’t get stitched up with all this stuff, stop coming to the waterhole to drink this crap. Start feeding on something worthwhile, try being the bloke/servant you were and better still and develop your wonderful skills and experience, you have a lot to give………all the best, be strong and courageous
>1972 In Prophecy! God's Practical Joke?":<
God had nothing to do with it
and
by the the booklet was "1975 in Prophecy"
Anoneemoose
Richard said:>there were rumors of instances of members and children who died premature<
Not rumors, this was something I witnessed and cried over.
Anoneemoose
Tom Mahon, whoever you are, when I read your posts Luke 18:11 comes to mind.
But then I also remember Luke 7:36
And the rest of that chapter.
Anoneemoose
"cult-like loyalty to Dennis"
A non-sequiter, but you go on to form an entire post about it. Typical COG straw-man hilarity.
Meanwhile your loyalty to HWA would be described how?
Beam, meet Splinter.
waisok said...
Don't usually comment, just check in and laugh at Gavin’s wonderful humor. but Dennis, me old mate, you are in overdrive,
Ha...at times very true. I have always liked the good choice of topics here on AW and most go a long way in processing the WCG experience.
I've made some friends, some aquaintances some helpful critics and that occasional God haunted individual I am pleased not to be anymore.
I love what I do now.
Recently I had a female client who was very quiet for the first half of the session. Then she started to sob quietly and I stopped to ask if I could help. She quielty said, "I just lost my only daughter in a car accident and I need someone to talk to."
And so we did. I asked her how her church was helping her? She said, "If one more person tells me God won't give me more than I can bear," I will quit. We talked some more. So I still do what I do best I think.
One more. A fellow was sitting in the chair when I came back in the room after the session. He didn't want to leave and felt comfortable in the space etc. I asked him what was going on and he said "mid-life stuff I suppose." I asked him what he did...he said, "I'll tell you next time I come in."
I started to laugh and said to him..."The only person to postpone telling me what they did until next time would have to be a burned out Pastor."
He looked at me and said "How the hell did you know that. I am a Presbyterian minister and fed up with ....."
I said, "Wanna hear a story?"
We had a good laugh over his getting tired of his congregants sayhing "If you want to die soon, just have Pastor...anoint you."
I told him that was a pretty darn common experience with every minister I ever met who went by the formula.
We rather agreed God is generally out of the "and the sick shall be made well," business as far as we can tell in practical fact.
Tom Moron said "all human relationships are based on mutual deception."
Like Tom Morons' marriage! Like Tom Morons parenting! Like Tom Morons' postings here! Like Tom Morons' whole life!!! Based on deception!
You cannot wiggle out of this in some self righteous exclusion... you said "all" you moron!!! You included yourself even though you were pointing your self righteous fingers at others.
Remember... when you point your self righteous fingers at others, three of your own fingers are pointing directly back at you!!
I think any deception going on around here is being promoted by you and is in your deceptive belief system. It is not caused by those who disagree with you.
Have you not noticed the following simple, basic (plain) truth? Others here can disagree on a wide range of topics and yet still get along nicely with each other. You somehow cannot, even though in your mind you epitomize righteousness. You are always arrogant and rude to all who disagree with you, and it appears that everyone here disagrees with you.
I sincerely hope that one day we could begin to call you something more flattering than "Tom Moron". But then again, in your mind, to say kind, flattering things is Satanic.
Is there anything left inside of you that wishes to be a kind, genuine and reasonable person?
I sure hope so!
Best of wishes Tom Mahon!
Thomas Munson
This is breaking into an article on how to deal with difficult people, but I think you'll get the point. They are discussion the obnoxious "Damon"
"Then Nick said, "Did it ever occur to you that Damon might just be a jerk?" Nick knew Carl prided himself on being a positive person. Nick's attitude was that it's pretty much all hype. But Nick also admired Carl's attitude, especially under stress. Carl seemed to be able to stay calm and rational when most people would have lost their heads. But with this comment, Nick felt he had proved that yes, Damon may have had brain damage, but it is equally likely — maybe more likely — he was just a jerk.
Carl answered thoughtfully. "It is possible. But since we're making it up, there's another thing to consider."
"What do you mean we're making it up?" asked Nick.
"Well, we don't know, right?" said Carl, "We don't know if he's got brain cancer; we don't know if he is just a buffoon who enjoys bothering people or has mad cow disease. Whatever we say, we're making it up because we don't know. Therefore…" and here Carl paused, and a charming smile came across his face, "therefore, my explanation is the better one."
"How do you figure?" Nick asked.
"Because an explanation that produces anger or upset or even annoyance produces stress hormones like adrenaline and cortisol. And when you have too much of these hormones in your body or have them too often, it weakens your immune system, puts excess fat on your belly, makes you less pleasant to be around, and might even cause brain damage. So now it looks totally different. You've got the choice between two totally made-up theories to explain Damon's behavior: He's either a jerk or he has brain damage.
One makes you feel dislike for him and a kind of self-righteous indignation — unpleasant feelings and at least a little stressful. The other makes you feel compassion for him and makes you feel lucky that your own brain is intact. This is a higher-quality experience. And better for your health."
Nick looked genuinely surprised and said, "You know, that actually made a lot of sense."
Make up a better reason
to explain someone's behavior.
Interpret the world in a way
that produces good results.
Know when you are guessing"
I found this helpful personally along the way, and while I'm sure you would all howl over a response I wrote to Tom using the "And the Lord Our God said.." format...I trashed it in leu of using these principles for good mental health.
'They are discussion the obnoxious "Damon"'
"discussing"...sorry Tom.
Tom Mahon said:
"Freedom of speech is not a gift of the "1st amendment," it is a gift of God, you might be surprised to learn."
Then how is it that only those who have constitutional rights to freedom of speech actually have freedom of speech, if it is a gift from God? God is apparently powerless or unwilling to grant his "gift" until men agree with themselves when drafting governmental constitutions and decide to protect freedom of speech. Why doesn't this gift go to the whole world then, instead of just those people whose contitutions upholds that right and defends that right? Notice I did not say gift!
Freedom of speech has historically been denied others by religiously influenced countries, and especially so when there is a governmental and religious union.
Freedom of speech was a "gift" to us by the founders of the nation of the United States. Many other countries adopted similar measures of freedom of speech. Most do not have that right in their countries.
There are many in Europe and around the world who are sitting in prison right now for speaking out for what they believe to be true. They are in prison because thier country has no true freedom of speech. God was apparently to powerless or too busy to make it clear that freedom of speech was his gift to them.
Thomas Munson
BibleGod is not near as for free speech as you would be lead to believe.
Seems everytime the poor Israelites brought up the basics like "we're hungry, we're thirsty, we're tired" Biblegod got mad, accused them of complaining, and made them sorry they brought it up.
And again in Numbers 21:
21.6. And the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
21.7. Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord, and against thee; pray unto the Lord, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.
21.8. And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
21.9. And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived."
The crime here again as complaining about being out in the waste howling wilderness, hungry, tired, scared and thirsty. For noting the obvious, they got snake bit, but it's ok, Moses makes a graven bronze image of a snake, lifts it up on a pole and if you look you win! Seems we forgot that command to not do such things!
So who is the real law breaker here. Moses or the hungry ones?
Free choice,without consequences for the wrong free choice, is not right up the high on His list either.
gosh..I have syntaxtosis this morning! :)
I just have to say something. I've been quiet for a long time. I wish everyone would stop flattering Dennis. Dennis, you talk too much...but that's your right. My right is to tell you that you talk too much. I can still see those "minister" hairs sticking out of you, no matter how much you try to hide them, shave them...or deny them, but, good luck anyhow. I'll check back in a few weeks.
You're probably right. What I tend to find interesting, few do, which is fine. There may be better outlets for any observations I think might be helpful. That's always been my intent.
I use AW as a social contact I suspect and really, it's not real.
I"m not hiding my minister "hairs." Being a member/minister was a very big life experience for me that didn't quite work out as I envisioned it as a young man. But what does?
I'll check back in a few months too. Anyone wishing to email me instead, feel free.
Den
All, It is fairly obvious that Tom Mahon suffers from 18 year old Male disease.
I had it my self when I was 18 but thankfully recovered...well mostly. My oldest son, now 19 still suffers from some of the symptoms but is recovering nicely.
18 year old male disease can be described thusly: Those affilicted feel as if they have figured the whole world out and they alone have all the answers. Symptons usually start appearing around 15 to 16 years of age peaking in the late teen years. Most males make aq near full recovery by their mid twenties. In rare and severe cases, this syndrome may last the entirety of the person's life. This seems to affect religious fundamentalists and overly zealous atheists more often than others.
Steve said...
I just have to say something. I've been quiet for a long time. I wish everyone would stop flattering Dennis. Dennis, you talk too much...but that's your right. My right is to tell you that you talk too much.
At least Dennis has something to say, other than meaningless crap like your post.
Why didn't you just come out and say, "Dennis, shut up, I don't want to hear anything you have to say because you used to be a WCG minister"?
I'd like to say that if you don't like what Dennis has to say, don't read any of his posts.
And, some people deserve to be flattered and some don't - you don't!
I don't remember reading any of your posts before but even if that one was your only one - you talk too much, so shut up.
Thomas Munson said:
>>>You cannot wiggle out of this in some self righteous exclusion... you said "all" you moron!!! You included yourself even though you were pointing your self righteous fingers at others.<<<
Firstly, you may call me any name you care to think of. You will never provoke me to reply in kind, for I live by the divine principle: "Render no man evil for evil." And I also strive to follow Jesus' example; "who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: who when he was reviled, reviled not again." So I have no plans to join you in a slanging match, or should that be "mud slinging."
Secondly, Christian relationships are not human relationships. I appreciate that this sublime truth may come as a profound surprise, if not a shock, to you! However, The Christian relationship is a spiritual relationship with God, the father, and his Son, Jesus Christ. Note what John was inspired to write: "Truly our fellowship is with the father, and his Son Jesus Christ." And the Apostle Paul (who was recently described by Dennis as a braggart), when discussing a similar topic, was inspired to inform the community of saints thus: "But you are not in the FLESH, but in the spirit, if so be that the spirit of God dwells in you." So if Christians are not in the FLESH, because of the spirit of God that dwells in them, and they are having fellowship with who is a spirit, we are driven to the inescapable conclusion that Christian relationships are not human.
Thirdly, in contrast to the spiritual fellowship Christian have with God, the father, and his Son, Jesus Christ, those who are in the FLESH, live by "deceiving and being deceived." Hence, all human relationships are based on mutual deception. Without the spirit of God, man is mere disguise and deceit. No wonder Pascal observed: "There won't be two friends in the world, if the other knew what his friend said about him behind his back"
Fourthly, the comments in this post will be like water off a duck's back to the scoffers, but there may just be the odd lurker, who might benefit from it.
So, we now know that Tom Mahon doesn't have "human relationships".
"Christian relationships are not human". So, we now also know that Christians only have non-human relationships with each other.
I guess the power of logic and reason go out the door in the case of the brain on Armstrongism.
Corky said...
>>>So, we now know that Tom Mahon doesn't have "human relationships".
"Christian relationships are not human". So, we now also know that Christians only have non-human relationships with each other.<<<
Water off one scoffers back! Next.
Richard said:
>>>I read all your posts, and I think you are the most honest and thoughtful of any WCG minister I have ever come across. The simplicity of the truth and hope that you summarized in your first post on this topic is re-freshing and encouraging.<<<
A shameless, practised flatterer, if there ever was one.
Richard said, "I don't mean to be unkind, but it doesn't sound very 'International' to me. Perhaps it is like everything else that is Armstrong related - more 'hype' than substance."
Let's see; outside the USA there's Canada, Jamaica, the Philippines, and Australia. How many more countries must we have on our list before we can be considered "international"?
We might have been guilty of Armstrong-style "hype" had we included all the countries that are home to groups and individuals who consider themselves a part of the CGI. These include Central and South Africa, India, and Ireland, among others.
Also, it might be worth noting that "International" refers to our mission, or goal, which is to go into all the world with the gospel of Christ and His Kingdom.
Corky said...
At least Dennis has something to say, other than meaningless crap like your post.
MY COMMENT: More flattery. Sigh!
Why didn't you just come out and say, "Dennis, shut up, I don't want to hear anything you have to say because you used to be a WCG minister"?
MY COMMENT: "USED to be"??
I'd like to say that if you don't like what Dennis has to say, don't read any of his posts.
MY COMMENT: I don't.
And, some people deserve to be flattered and some don't - you don't!
MY COMMENT: My, my! Touched an atheistic nerve, did I?
I don't remember reading any of your posts before but even if that one was your only one - you talk too much, so shut up.
MY COMMENT: How childish you are. "No, you shut up. No, you shut up. No, you shut up."
Vance said:
"Also, it might be worth noting that "International" refers to our mission, or goal, which is to go into all the world with the gospel of Christ and His Kingdom."
Why would you want to go tell the world the failed gospel and teachings (used loosely) of Herbert Harmstrong? The man is a documented false prophet, a robber of widows, and a power loving abuser of his fellow man.
How can you (and others here) that read all of the glaring facts about HWA on forums such as these, yet continue to promote a sham! an all out FRAUD!?
I pray you get no where in your efforts to promote your cult, or trap another gullible victim into the tenets of Armstrongism.
Anonymous said...
Tom seems to be plagued today by the Karma Fairy
They say the Karma fairy looks a lot like Dr Phil. Just don't be in rehab when he visits, he'll put your problems on TV.
Okay Tom... your less then transparent attempt to use an alias, aka "Steve" won't work.
Don't try to make up fictitious allies in order to inflate the numbers of the Interdimensional Thick-head Church of Goads.
Wow.
This has got to be one of the nastiest and most unedifying "discussion" threads AW has ever seen.
Hey, it's no secret that I generally don't find Dennis' treatment of Scripture to be of much value. I'm sure he has the same or similar opinion of my religious faith and how I approach Scripture. But I don't care what anybody else might think about him as a person and as a former WCG minister. So he used to be a WCG minister, and so you think he's got lingering "WCG-minister-itis." So what. That doesn't excuse anyone attacking him personally and showing no regard for his dignity as a human being. How about we show each other a little basic human decency.
yeah..what started out as the guy expressing some personal sentiments turned into a shark fest
Jared Olar said...
"So he used to be a WCG minister, and so you think he's got lingering "WCG-minister-itis." So what."
MY COMMENT: Uh...correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't his mug shot still on the "Hall of Shame" list over at the Painful Truth website? Maybe you should take it up with them. I've never heard Denny apologize for his part in the abusive, rotten-to-the-core Armstrong cult. He either claims ignorance or tells us that he played the "mother teresa" role with his congregation. (And, no, I'm not Tom.)
Charlie said...
All, It is fairly obvious that Tom Mahon suffers from 18 year old Male disease.........
Yes you are right on Charlie! I just knew this had to be a young boy writing this! It is so juvenile! Tom is a young man...it makes sense. No humor but narcissistic tendencies, well indoctrinated in the Armstrong line of crap, proud, arrogant, haughty, all the thing a narcissist is and more!
Back in my days we called them assholes!
Thank you Charlie, I just knew that others out there in blog land thought the same. Now if little Tommy could trade his devil inspired PC in on a collectors bible we would be safe from such abstract weirdos!!!
Steve wrote..I've never heard Denny apologize for his part in the abusive, rotten-to-the-core Armstrong cult..........................
I once got pretty nasty with Dennis on the PT forum and said about the same. About six months later I got reading some of his articles and was astounded at his experiences, his candid demeanor on the wcg failed money raising project religion, and his humility. After no fasting or prayer I sent him a letter of apology. Why? Because the guy is sincere and he is an honest forthright individual. He does not threaten anyone, all he wants is peace. I say forgive. He never did me harm so I am not asking for an apology. If he harmed you then go tell him so!
Now this is for Tom. Learn from my experiences son and you shall be wiser. When you are wrong you should step up to the plate and apologies. It take humility but in the long run it keeps you sane. From what you put on this blog Tom, I say you need the lesson son. Learn from the Scribe please!
Jared Olar said: "That doesn't excuse anyone attacking him personally and showing no regard for his dignity as a human being. How about we show each other a little basic human decency."
Yeah - Let's tone this back down a bit.
For the record Steve, I can't think of much more Dennis could say about his time in the WCG. It appears as though he did quite a bit to protect his congregants from members and others pastors with an attitude similar to our good 'ol buddy Tom Mahon.
Speaking of Tom,
There isn't a human being on earth, yourself included that doesn't like to hear or read, in the first, second, or third person, nice things about themselves. Sure, too much of that sort of thing stinks of brown nosing sycophants, however, if we don't hear any positive feedback it is probably for a good reason...
Food for thought, Tom.
Steve,
I think we can all tell who is being "childish", I would just shut up before I embarrassed myself further.
Of course, that's just me. But, if you think that Dennis is still a WCG minister then you have not been keeping up with much in your world.
Jarad,
You wrote>That doesn't excuse anyone attacking him personally and showing no regard for his dignity as a human being. How about we show each other a little basic human decency.<<<<<<<
Yes Sir, I agree and thank you for the post that supports decency and respect for someone like Dennis. The man does no harm and sure the hell don't preach. If I wanted that preaching crap I would go over to the Flurry compound Saturday and get a gut full!
Anyone else here that feels they can support decent and respectful blogging toward each of us that contributes?
Kscribe
PS: This does not include Tom because he is a spammer that constantly shows disrespect toward others who do not share his religious considerations. An annoyance if you will........
DEDICATED TO TOM AND HIS ARMSTRONG MENTALITY Just look for the preview of "The Wave" on the top left of the page.
Corky said...
"Steve,
I think we can all tell who is being "childish", I would just shut up before I embarrassed myself further."
MY COMMENT: Then, maybe you should. If anyone is truly honest on this forum, they would tell you how embarrasing you are to them. "No, you shut up. No, you shut up. No, you shut up." Very childish, Corky
"Of course, that's just me. But, if you think that Dennis is still a WCG minister then you have not been keeping up with much in your world."
MY COMMENT: Oh, he's still a WCG "minister" alright...just not on the payroll. Go ask the Painful Truth why they haven't removed him from the "Hall of Shame". He doesn't want to own up to his responsibility, and he's in denial that he was just another SS soldier following orders. Of course, that's just me.
Sheesh!
The comments board is a bit like a bar or pub. People wander in, sound off... But if you want to pick a fight with one of the patrons you might find the bouncer breathing down your neck.
And for the record, while I've never met Dennis in person, I know enough about the guy to count him as a friend. He's honest and insightful. I don't have a high opinion of many ministers or ex-ministers, but Dennis is an honorable exception. Anyone who has a problem with that can go do their drinking elsewhere.
Now, who ordered the Guinness?
Steve,
Maybe you missed this.
Click here
http://www.hwarmstrong.com/diehl_list.htm
cracker said...
>>>Okay Tom... your less then transparent attempt to use an alias, aka "Steve" won't work.
Don't try to make up fictitious allies in order to inflate the numbers of the Interdimensional Thick-head Church of Goads.<<<
Your power of deduction is just as poor as your ability to determine who is actually doing the "mud slinging." But I can assure you, I add my name to everything I write, and my name is not Steve.
The dangers of late-night blog reading....
I came upon this sentence fragment:
"......and so you think he's got lingering "WCG-minister-itis."
and my slightly dyslexic brain reads it as:
"......and so you think he's got lingering "WCG-minister-tits."
I was almost ready to post a comment about The Seinfeld Show's character Kramer, who invented "the Bro" as the middle-aged-man's male bra.
But then I rubbed my eyes again and saw that it said "itis", not "tits"....
So I'll go to bed now before I get pulled over for blogging while asleep.
And friends never ever drink and blog....
Jared Olar said...
>>>That doesn't excuse anyone attacking him personally and showing no regard for his dignity as a human being. How about we show each other a little basic human decency.<<<
Since I have been posting here, no one has personally attack Dennis. On the contrary, he has enjoyed endless flattery from his admirers - I almost said mindless. But that wouldn't be entirely fair. For although Gavin likes him, I believe that Gavin is much too astute to agree with Dennis' attempt to rewrite the bible.
In addition, I have been severely critical of his admitted failure to speak out against the changes introduced by Tkach. I have also been astonished by his profound ignorance of the bible, and his blasphemous attempt to promote Dan Brown's perverse opinions of Jesus over the the divine revelation of the life and teachings Jesus.
His posts reflect a disturb mind, which is not surprising, for he has repudiated all that he once believe to be true, and has reverted to celebrating xmas. If saying that his mind is disturbed is deemed as a personal attack, I make no apologies for it. For any impartial, objective observer reading the three incoherent posts at the top of this thread, would be concerned about the mental state of the author.
However, I don't attack people, I attack their opinions and their behaviour, especially those who claim to be upholders of righteousness.
Tom Mahon stated: "I believe that Gavin is much too astute to agree with Dennis' attempt to rewrite the bible."
Tom, Dennis can speak for himself on this of course but I find no evidence that he is trying to rewrite the bible, he has been pointing out a wide variety of inconsistencies, contradictions, and things that don't quite add up. You may believe that the bible is 100% accurate and flawless, however if you use a little more of that brain that God endowed you with, you might find that the Bible is far from perfect.
A little free advice for you. Stop making your annoying pronouncements about what you think may be in store for we non-armstrongists for the future. It was at first amusing, then boring, but has now become quite tiresome...and you give ammo to those who think that anyone that believes in God must be a bible thumping moron. Try telling it to your mirror since it is obvious to all that you are very impressed with yourself.
Unity of the Spirit
'Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace' (Ephesians 4:3)
'So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another' (Romans 12:5)
All Christians pay at least lip service to the idea of 'unity'. Hardly surprising, for the emphasis on it pervades the Scriptures. Every one of us owes our all to Jesus and we all believe we are part of his Body '...one in Christ Jesus' (Galatians 3:28). So why is unity so elusive? Why can't brethren work in harmony?
.....It's fruitful to understand first that the apostle Paul presents us with two kinds of unity - what we are discussing in this study - 'unity of the Spirit' (Ephesians 4:3), and (addressed later) 'unity of the faith' (v.13)
.....'Unity of the Spirit' , he says, is here and now: 'endeavour to keep [guard]…' it, he tells us. It's the unity that is an expression of the indwelling Spirit in us. For those 'in Christ' there is 'one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all' (Ephesians 4:5-6). We are all organically related to the Father, to Jesus - and to one another. Whether or not we like the latter - once begotten we can't choose family!
.....The implication that we must 'endeavour' [Gk: intensely labour] to maintain unity suggests there is some fragility to it. It demands co-operative effort, energy on our part. Unity of the Spirit doesn't just happen, and Paul gives us a clue to enable it: '...in the bond of peace' (Ephesians 4:3 ) - a trait that is 'bound' by agape, love ((see Colossians 3:14)
.....Apart from the Spirit of God this unity is impossible. Sooner or later every organization has its dissension - and not least in religion. Started with the best of intentions every congregation will divide or bleed members - the more so the larger the organization, even where there's a strong hierarchy that squashes dissent and thus drives it underground
.....We should recognize that the pursuit of 'unity' is addressed primarily to each local congregation. It is not corporate or organizational
.....Upon repentance and belief in Jesus the Messiah we are 'seeded' by the Spirit (Acts 5:32) - but the degree to which 'the fruits of the Spirit' ('...love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, meekness, self-control' - Galatians 5:22-23) are individually grown is determined by our own will. If all Christians in a congregation were 'Spirit-filled' unity would be complete. It's a life-long personal process of 'intense labour', of co-operation with the Father! We learn such qualities of character from the Father as displayed in the life of Jesus: '...he that has seen me has seen the Father' (John 14:9). Elsewhere the apostle urges believers to '...put on' (eg Colossians 3:12) these positive characteristics. They are not inborn but are acquired through personal, diligent effort
.....Two thousand years of Christianity hasn't brought that Spirit-unity closer. As in the first century local assemblies are today riven by attitudes that shatter peace, hinder unity. Paul worried about the Corinthian brethren: '...I fear that some of you may be arguing or jealous or angry or selfish or gossiping or insulting each other. I even fear that you may be proud and acting like a mob' (II Corinthians 12:20 CEV). He urges the congregations in Ephesus (4:2): '...with all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love'
.....Note that these admonitions imply face-to-face interaction between brethren. The Christian faith is corporate - 'one body'. It is in our assembling together that the skills needed for peace and harmony and unity are honed: '...Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as you see the day approaching' (Hebrews 10:23-26) Ω
Steve said: Uh...correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't his mug shot still on the "Hall of Shame" list over at the Painful Truth website?
Maybe it is. I don't hang out at the PT website, and anyway their opinion doesn't necessarily carry any truck with me.
If somebody posting your photo at a website is all it takes for you to have not really stopped being a WCG minister, then I guess the WCG is in major default on its payroll.
I've never heard Denny apologize for his part in the abusive, rotten-to-the-core Armstrong cult.
Just because you don't know if he's ever apologised, it gives you no right to treat him poorly. If you want to interact substantively and seriously with what he says, do so, but it's unhelpful, to say the least, to offer "you talk too much" (i.e. "shut up and go away") remarks or to demand he meet your personal expectations of what a former WCG minister should be. Judgmentalism and unkindness are just as bad coming from a former Armstrongist as they are from an Armstrongist.
Tom said: Since I have been posting here, no one has personally attack Dennis.
He was personally attacked in this discussion.
On the contrary, he has enjoyed endless flattery from his admirers
Tom, a lot of people here like what he has to say and agree with him, or at least are happy to listen to him share his perspectives and recount his experiences.
In addition, I have been severely critical of his admitted failure to speak out against the changes introduced by Tkach.
Most people probably wouldn't think there was anything blameworthy in his not speaking out against the WCG's doctrinal reforms of the 1990s.
The point of a blog is to do just that...BLOG. While I may not see things from the same perspective as Dennis or anyone else here, it doesn't mean that I have the right to be rude and impolite to them.
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" comes to mind. BTW, Tom Mahon and Steve, those are Christ's words so if you want to attack them, make sure you attack the right person.
We all are here because Gavin has made this an open blog. Therefore, we're a guest in his blog, so to speak. If a guest is uncomfortable some place he or she has been invited, the guest finds a way to politely leave quickly without offense.
Tom Mahon and Steve have the choice to visit or not, to leave if they don't like it without offense.
It seems clear they come here to attack, offend, and exalt themselves as somehow being superior to the rest of us.
The only other offensive and irascible guests even close to this that I know of on the planet are roaches. Perhaps Tom Mahon and Steve would survive with them in the event of a worldwide nuclear war.
Maybe their "love" and "charity" will work better on roaches.
You never know...
What in hell is the statute of limitations on the crime of having been a WCG minister?
There is a hierarchy of WCG ministry, starting at the top of the pyramid, with "good". At the top would be the ones who have repented of their Armstrongism, and are now trying to help ex-church members who are in recovery. That takes some major guts! Dennis is certainly part of that group, and I don't give a damn whether or not someone has signed that extreme "ministerial apology" page over at Painful Truth. To sign that you've got to admit to almost every vile thing except having been a homosexual child molester!
Continuing the hierarchy, the next level would be the Armstrongist ministers who have died and are no longer doing harm to anyone. Depending on your individual beliefs, they either got away with everything, or else they are awaiting judgement.
Just above the bottom layer, but still crossing into the "bad" zone are the ministers whose Armstrongism is less cultic, less authoritarian, and more altruistic towards the human race at large. They're benign, but still spreading false beliefs and harmful doctrine like British Israel racism.
At the very bottom are the "burn in hell bad guys" who are still fleecing their flocks, micro-supervising their members, dominating members' finances, and making their medical decisions for them. These guys are the ones who make you wish for the days of the lions!
Some of the then future ministers were my friends while we were at AC together, and I can tell you that while some were flaming assholes, others were good guys who were victimized by the same bad system that we all were, only often on an even more extreme level than we regular members were.
I'd much rather sit down and have beer and pretzels with good people like Dennis Diehl than I would with willing sickos who deliberately keep themselves bitter and angry, years after their actual exit. Negativity is very catching, feeds on itself, and destroys the human spirit. Jesus knew this, which is why He instructed His followers to forgive and even pray for their enemies!
BB
Corky said...
"Steve,
Maybe you missed this."
Click here
http://www.hwarmstrong.com/diehl_list.htm
MY COMMENT: Nope. Didn't miss a thing. "God, I thank you that I'm not like the other ministers, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as those head honchos. I fast twice a week: I give tithes of all that I possess. Look at all the good I did." Notice that Dennis didn't apologize for ANYTHING. He was a "saint" in ALL of his dealings with the flock.
Byker Bob said...
"What in hell is the statute of limitations on the crime of having been a WCG minister?"
MY COMMENT: The CRIME is in not admitting that you ever did any wrong, and boasting that you were a "saint" in all of it. Better to apologize, have remorse, and move on...not make excuses about how righteous one was in the whole damn mess!
"I don't give a damn whether or not someone has signed that extreme "ministerial apology" page over at Painful Truth."
MY COMMENT: No problem. That's your right. You're entitled to it, but I DO give a damn!
"To sign that you've got to admit to almost every vile thing except having been a homosexual child molester!"
MY COMMENT: That's very untrue. A "minister" just has to admit to his own wrongdoing. When someone has to write paragraphs explaining how GOOD they are...I get a little suspicious.
Steve, I'm trying to understand you here. Are you saying that it was totally impossible for even one person to have been a "good" WCG minister? I just can't buy into that thinking. I know that it is possible to be subversive in just about any job or status of life. You do this by maintaining your conscience, doing what you believe to be the right thing, and staying below the radar.
Any time this issue has surfaced re: D. Diehl, members of his past congregations have come forward to praise and defend him.
I think you're trying to shoot all of the ducks in the hopes that you'll nail the guilty ones.
Remember, there were subversive "Nazis" during WWII who loved and helped Jewish people, often at a great peril to themselves.
You really need to examine your standards of basic fairness here.
BB
For my money, Steve's comments display the same kind of extremist, intolerant judgmentalism that was fostered in the WCG. My counsel, for all it's worth (probably not much) is that, rather than working himself up over whether or not Dennis meets his personal standards of righteousness, Steve ought to take a good look at himself.
I also had to laugh to see him holding up The Painful Truth website as some kind of authority that must be respected. Who gave the PT website this vaunted role of Litmus Tester of Former WCG Ministers? Probably the same person who gave Herbert Armstrong the authority and office of God's Apostle and End-Time Elijah.
Signing the apology was all or nothing. It was NOT just admit to your own mistakes. It was to admit to ALL those mistakes. I was even asked to sign it just to show good faith and set an example. But I pointed out the document listed a hundred very specific admissions, few of which, I had practiced, and none of which I practiced maliciously or thinking I was anything more than a member who was also a minister.
The author agreed with me that to sign it generically was indeed to seem to say one did all that. No one did all that.
I can be generically sorry for being a part of something that eventually I came to see as not appropropriate or correct. That was a process. Any member can do the same for any part they may have played as well.
This whole exhange embarasses me more than hurts me personally. I know who I was, who I am and the internal conflict between what I hoped would change for the good and never did. I apologize for being naive and hopeful. My congregations came first over anything HQ said in all their impractical inexperience with the lives of real people.
(No one in the WCG Administration has apologized to me for all the lying conferences and answers to specific questions that later proved me to be a fool to believe.)
I married them, buried them, listened to them and held them while they screamed at God as we stood by the river waiting to find their child's body, or waiting for the ambulance to bring the body in from the wreck or said goodbye to the child as they die on the gurney. I have been dragged by the hand by shocked out moms back to the morgue to view dead teens and opened body drawers with a wife who is still yelling at her husband for getting killed. Real shit happens and I have seen some real shit.
Things like that affected my soul and trivialize the intellectual wrangling people do over the nature of God or how many Gods make up one.
From two days ago:
"Mr. Diehl Just wanted to say hello. I read some of your articles and your main, more autobiographical piece. It was really good to "see" you after all this time...
For what it's worth, the sermons you gave were beneficial without theological boundaries, if that makes sense. Anyone would have gained from them. ....
Mainly wanted to say hi and let you know that I always thought the world of you and greatly enjoyed when you were in the church area. It ticked me off to hear that you weren't in the area anymore while my brother and I were at AC."
Signed.....
And again..From a month ago...
"The ministers I respected the most were the ones
like yourself who actually cared for the people in their congregations
and tried to comfort and protect them."
etc...over the past decade.
In one month I had four former teens in my past congregations call to say hi, now in their 40's, and tell me they were gay. When I asked why they called to tell me that, they said, "because I knew you would understand and not judge me...and I got thinking about you." Just to be clear here for the benefit of the few who will look up scriptures...gay is who somone is and not much of a choice, in my humble and goddless opinion. I have gay clients who make it very clear to me how it all was and is in their lives and it is who they are.
I'm not looking for anyone's approval. This exchange has given me a lot to think about and for that I thank you. I only have to be comfortable with me, and I am. more now than ever. If one can achieve that one thing in life, I think they will find it enough.
I will make more of an effort to not feel so free to comment and encourage those that never do or seldom to to take up the space and tell us about you and how you are growing through.
Jared, thank you for you kind comments. Of course I respect you, your choices and sincere faith. We're all here to learn.
It is the most sincere that seem to get the most hurt when religion and people fail them'
The rancourous I truly don't understand and can't identify with and have nothing to say to. In my worst moment, I would never express myself to anyone as you few seem to be so easily to do.
I personally don't wish to filter my world and opinion of others through whatever it is that allows you to so freely spit on others in your Jesus.
PS. I rather hate this sounding like defending myself as well because that will be the next criticism. But neither do I have to take a stabbling lying down. Trust me, anyone "defending" the minister who got trapped between the congregation and HQ is rather rare.
I grew up well educated and more church attending as a Presbyterian before I ever set foot on the campus of the WCG. Dutch Calvinists don't ignore their kids religious education. We had to memorize whole parts of the Bible as kids.
I was never just one of "them." I was one of you, working for them for as long as I could. After a messy transition, confusion of spirit and a mental limbo of about five years, with many good memories of many good people all behind, it ended and I opened myself up to all the doubts soaking in the Bible can lead to in any religious environment if you ask the right questions.
I will always have a heart for truth, but not bullshit, opinion, just have faith, blind acceptance or going with the tribe because that's what's expected. I also know the Bible and history can be spun any way needed, as if we could know for sure how it all is or was.
As good ol' Cher once said, "My life has not been easy. In fact it's been downright messy at times. But it's just me, doing the best I can..."
And yes, I have made plenty of mistakes and mishandled some things just as badly as the next guy in life.
Steve,
Take a chill pill dude.
You appear to wound up even tighter than Tom Mahon.
Dennis said: "And yes, I have made plenty of mistakes and mishandled some things just as badly as the next guy in life."
Amen brother!
Have a good weekend Dennis!
Dennis Diehl,
You have my standing ovation!
You have NOTHING to be embarrassed about. Please do not let one moron that posts here to silence you from expressing your thoughts, perspective and opinions that are of benefit to the majority of us readers. You have paid a mighty price for your life's experiences. Please share your unique perspectives with others here as you deem fit.
Thank you Dennis,
Richard
I think we all had our part in the system which hurt so many.
We contributed by sending in our tithes, gifting our homes, volunteering free services etc. to the WCG and XWCG systems in that we provided the means for those systems to continue and to grow.
This was our part in that system.
We each had to learn and repent of our part just as ministers had to first learn what was going on and then learn which steps to take to survive and later be of service in helping others.
Few, if any other, ministers have been able to rise to the occasion and effect change as Dennis has done.
I think we all have quite a way to go, but we cannot go forward unless we can first see things as they really are.
Good observations there, Reality!
One of the after effects many of us exCOGgers have needed to deal with is binary thinking, which was practically institutionalized at WCG.
In this case, the binary (and somewhat circular) thinking follows these lines: Minister X was horribly abusive. So were Ministers V, W, Y, and Z. In fact, look at all of the anecdotal evidence collected at the PT website! Minister D was also a member of and employed by the WCG. Therefore, Minister D must also have been abusive. How could he not have been.
Right now, on the opening page of the Painful Truth website, you can read a horrible first person story of spousal abuse which had its root in the ministerial counsel of Bill Gordon. There have, from time to time, been any number of similar testimonies as to the brutality and total lack of humanity or Christian attributes exhibited by certain select members of the ministry. In some peoples' minds, that sets off a lynch mob mentality.
The problem is that there was an identifiable spectrum of ministerial behavior. These guys were individuals with distinct personal attributes. Some of them were brutal, and we read horrible things about them. Others are still loved by the people they actually did "serve", and their former congregation members write in, stating that they loved their minister, hope he's doing well, and are so glad he wasn't like many of the others. So, there's something terribly unfair about wanting to lynch every single one of the WCG ministers because of the widespread injustices with which we are all familiar. Nothing is ever 100%. There are always exceptions.
I'd say hold back indignation and reserve it for the ones who were truly bad. Of course, I realize that those in that category would never subject themselves to our scrutiny on these sites. They know what would be waiting for them here! Unfortunately, their absence or unavailability causes some people to misplace their anger and actually attack good people, just because they were once part of the system.
I've gotten myself in trouble on other forums for stating the above, but I really don't care. Fair is fair. If anyone is blameworthy, it would be HWA for developing such a corrupt and cruel system. To be honest with you all, I believe there were even some "good" evangelists, some of whom I wouldn't mind seeing again.
BB
I'm amazed how the "good ole boy" club is alive and well on this forum. If someone steps one of the good ole boys toes, then the rest come to the rescue. Hey, you flattered the "ministers" in the old WCG, so why am I surprised that you do it here? After all, you went to Herbie's college, so defend them tooth and toenail, and keep up the flattery. It shows that you are a member of the "good ole boys" club. Jared, I never told Dennis to shut up and go away. I just told him that he talked too much, and that I could see his old "minister" hairs sticking out, but, hey, that's just me. Now, I challenge the "good ole boys" club to look at what Dennis said in his letter to the Painful Truth editor, and tell me who could be so lilly-white in Herbie's putrid organization, especially while being on the payroll. I have apologized to many who came into that rotten, stinky cult after I did because it was my money that drew them in and trapped them. For that, for MY part, I am truly sorry! I don't make a list of the good things I did, saying that I was soooo good, because the bad outweighs the good. Dennis is in denial, and the rest of you aren't helping him. You, along with him, are just wallowing in the pig slop. So, flatter away.
No, Steve. Dennis was not and is NOT a member of the 'good ole boy's club', which most defintely exists.
As Byker says, they would never show up here.
The Church of God experience was unique for each of us, and I would expect even more so for ministers, so some explanation as to circumstances should be welcome. A blanket apology, with no explanation, could have little meaning for most of us.
Besides it is interesting to learn the trauma involved, and the steps and decisions he made leading to an escape.
I hope that the entire ministry can make whatever personal changes are needed for each of them to be free, but frankly, I would not wish to have an apology from any of my former ministers. It would be more than enough to only learn that they somehow were able to find a way out and to live with themselves thereafter.
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