Guess who's not a happy camper...
From: Joel Meeker
To: [UCG Elders Forum]
Sent: Thu, 22 May 2008 5:27 am
Subject: EF: Requiem for truth and honor
Joel Meeker, Milford OH
But now we've disgraced ourselves as a body and I for one am ashamed to be part of this General Conference of Elders.
Last year we prayed and fasted and voted on relocation and it was finally approved by 7 votes. This year we were assured that revisiting the decision would bring unity and closure and everyone would be "brought on board." We fasted and prayed and the relocation was canceled by 10 votes. So far I haven't heard anyone who was so morally indignant last year, complain about this obvious lack of consensus; that this decision was made by such a slender margin. But that wouldn't be due to a double standard, or situation ethics....
This year 9 fewer men voted against the move, 34 fewer men voted to support the relocation. So 43 men, nearly 10% of our GCE, were discouraged enough or disgusted enough or far enough along in the process of disengaging from the GCE that they didn't vote this year when they had last year. Thank you for the new unity, and for getting everyone on board. Or is that silence you hear the sound of some more saints having been worn out?
What does this prove: that 10 is more than 7 so God has finally spoken? Does God work through misinformation, innuendo, and railing accusations against the brothers we have chosen for our administration? Does He accomplish His will through furtive slanderous internet forums and personal attacks? I guess we're supposed to believe so. Thus far those who were in favor of the relocation have generally behaved with decorum and respect, so I expect this issue will remain a dead letter now for some time. Some elders do have a sense of propriety and shame. Would that it had been so with those who worked so hard, with so much misleading misinformation to defeat it. Yes, I'm ashamed to be part of an association that supposedly repudiates factions - where a faction can behave with such cunning ruthlessness and contempt for the truth, and still win its own will.
The most telling blow and the most shameful to us, however, is that an elder who blatantly defied the lawful decision of our president – made in the best interest of the Church, a man who according to the Council showed no repentance or remorse and stated plainly he might do the same thing again any time he chose, who thereby soiled all respect for our rules, our policies, our leaders and anyone who doesn't agree with his own personal view of "God's will," a man who was censured by our COE – an unprecedented act of sanction and disgrace – for his actions and his attitude; that man we have blithely reelected to serve on our Council of Elders.
Shame on him. But even more than that, shame on us.
I suppose we get the leaders we deserve. We shall drink deeply of that cup.
We have just crossed a moral line. I don't believe we can ever go back to the ethics and principle-driven values we at least tried to have before. Populist politics have taken over – just like in the world; we have espoused a post-modern, emotion-driven worldview. A majority of our balloting elders have shown they will not support the consensus of the GCE if they don't feel like it. They have shown that they will listen to mud-slinging and vituperation and even lies, mixed with generous helpings of fawning and flattery and they will willingly cooperate.
They have shown that they don't care about rules or codes if they don't feel like it, even if we've all previously agreed to abide by them. They have besmirched our ministerial code of ethics by reelecting a defiant, self-willed man to the Council.
Either that or they were just duped. And that would scarcely bode any better for the future of this association.
I believe this is the beginning of the end for the United Church of God as we have known it. The fissures caused by the moral earthquake we all just felt will no doubt be papered over for a while and we will be assured that all is well in the best of worlds. Great trees don't fall in an instant, but the cracking sound is getting louder. Some of you have sown the wind; you will in time reap the whirlwind. God is not mocked. In the meanwhile, may God have mercy on His people; they deserve better.
The Lord gave and the Lord hath taken away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.
From: Joel Meeker
To: [UCG Elders Forum]
Sent: Thu, 22 May 2008 6:25 am
Subject: EF: Post may be shared
Joel Meeker Milford OH
My post of this morning may be shared in accordance with our EF rules.
42 comments:
Joel Meeker:
Welcome to the real world.
Stan Gardner
Ambassador Reports
This is what happens when you bring politics into a church.
If Christ is the head where does voting come in?
Why not add UCG to the list of which would concern us most?
I'm sorry, Joel. You're assuming that God was ever even part of the Armstrong movement. Bad mistake!
Face it, buddy. You belong to a copy or replica of a bogus church. This latest experience should simply serve as your latest clue. Ever hear of failed prophecy? Does 1975 ring a bell?
Be happy you have a quasi legitimate council of elders. In HWA's original church, the board was strictly rubber stamp. Nobody who didn't agree 100% with the Wizard of Oz even got near sitting on that board!
BB
“So far I haven't heard anyone who was so morally indignant last year, complain about this obvious lack of consensus”
Nearly all resolutions that have been accepted in the past have had a very clear majority. The fact that last year’s vote was so close surely should have sent a ‘shot across the bows’, and shown that this move is not supported as well as hoped. i.e. tread carefully – instead it seems to have been taken as carte blanc to go ahead.
“Thus far those who were in favor of the relocation have generally behaved with decorum and respect”
And why wouldn’t they? The resolution had been passed, and the fact it was such a slender vote was being ignored.
“The most telling blow and the most shameful to us, however, is that an elder who blatantly defied the lawful decision of our president…..”
i.e. and spoke at a non UCG meeting…..So such a person should not be re-elected?
The motion to rescind the move was not the work of one man. Four of the twelve on the COE supported the motion to rescind. Does JM feel the same about all four of his fellow board members?
Byker Bob,
Yes, 1972 & 1975 ring a bell.
Richard
Wow. And he signed his real name to it? Somebody's either sucking up (to those who bitch-slapped Aaron Dean's wrist), or bucking for a disfellowshipment.
Meeker certainly sounds like the typical hardliner Gestapo I remember from the WCG Classic days. The more things change....
Armstrongism is just so much mental noise, confusing to those already burdened by a noisy brain and aggravating to those who do not.
UCG is immoral, unethical and occasionally illegal. I sat in court during the hearing at which the judge granted relief to the married couple being stalked by a single man in United. Two deacons and a deaconess were actually there to promote and protect the stalker -- with the tacit blessing of the regional pastor who has a history of such things. It was an education as the judge got so fed up with the UCG hierarchy he nearly pitched them out of the court room. They treated the judge as if he were a rank and file member of United -- they had not one shred of respect for his authority.
Be warned: United is not led by good people.
But then we shouldn't be surprised, should we. The founder and leader of the Radio Church of God was a false prophet and they learned from him. They are totally bogus and illegitimate.
Personally, I don't even know why United exists except maybe for vacation planning and to provide salary and retirement for the good ol' boys club.
If you are looking for the bounteous merciful Righteousness of God, go elsewhere.
But then, you all knew that. Right?
By their fruit you shall know them.
Joel Meeker is the son of George Meeker, a prominent senior pastor in the old wcg. In fact, he (George) baptized me. Joel was an "upstanding" student at AC, active in just about everything there, including the YA.
I kinda wondered whatever happened to Joel, and now I know. Too bad he went the way of the cog's.
Wake up, Joel. Your organization has never been "God's church".
This is kinda like the Iran-Iraq war. Too bad both sides can't lose.
--Publius
"Does God work through misinformation, innuendo, and railing accusations against the brothers we have chosen for our administration?"
All the time because God doesn't spend much time listening much less inspiring an answer.
One would think a Deity with a voice of many waters and thunders could speak up when his chosen "ask whatever you will, in my name and I will give it." or "God hears the prayers of his saints."
Sincere Christians don't get answers to prayers all the time. They then feel bad, guilty, inferior, defective, faithless or just doubtful.
And no matter if God answers or doesn't, He gets off the hook without fail. It's ALWAYS the mortal's fault in his defective perceptions, hearing, or faith.
It's why we hear sermons on "Sometimes the Answer is NO" when dealing with "and the sick shall be made well."
God might hear the prayers of his saints, but that's like my hearing an ambulance but neither follow it or care where it is going as it fades in the distance.
Prayer is tricky stuff. It can't be vain or profuse. It can't be repetitious. The answer can be delayed or NO. A YES may be the worst thing for you as well. And of course the answer is promised or not depending.
Mortals do what they are told and then have to find an apologetic as to why what seems clear does not mean what one is lead to believe.
"And the prayer of faith shall heal the sick.." Ummm, no.
"See if I won't open the windows of heave for you." Umm, no
"Ask whatever you wish and I will give it.." Can you imagine that one being answered?
I thought UCG's prayer style for corporate answers was interesting.
The first wave prays. If no answer, the second wave prays and if still no answer, the topic is tabled. Sounds like the Priests of Baal who finally reached the wave where they cut themselves and then gave up.
This would be refreshing:
UCG: Dear Father in Heaven...
FIH: Hey guys, whatcha need...
UCG: Is it your will we move...
FIH It's up to you. Whatever works...
UCG: Should Aaron Dean become President of UCG?
FIH: Sounds good to me. Whatcha think?
UCG: We'd like to say that YOU told us what to do.
FIH: Oh, well, there are lots of ways you can do things. I don't have preferences.
UCG: But it's easier if we can tell everyone YOU told us what to do.
FIH: I know, I've had to deal with that getting out of taking responsibility from the religious for millenia. I really don't have preferences.
UCG: Why don't you heal when as you said you would when we ask?
FIH: I never said that. James did.
UCG: What about "whatever you ask in my name..."
FIH: Never said that either. You need to study how the Gospels came to be.
UCG: What about never seeing the righteous beg bread?
FIH: Never said it. David needed to get out of the palace more.
UCG: So it's up to us?
FIH: "I have no preferences. Yes it's up to you." You can quote me on that.
Obviously someone didn't like the outcome.
Will someone now rise up and put the UCG "back on track"? Some obviously aren't ready for a more democratic form of government.
"Will someone now rise up and put the UCG "back on track"?
The solution for this train seems simple. It's a tried and true solution to that niggly problem of leadership and decision making...
"And yes brethren..........I am an Apostle....send it in."
"I suppose we get the leaders we deserve. We shall drink deeply of that cup.
It's about time the leaders get a taste of the cup that members have had to drink for all these many years. ( tastes kinda bitter doesn't it? )
When one starts a 'church' in the clandestine way theses guys did......what do they expect?
What a great rant! I really enjoyed that one. It sounds like Joel really means it!
"Does God work through ..." (you fill in the blank). Earth to Joel! God doesn't work through ANYTHING UCG does. Or any other xCG. Or, for that matter ... well, I'll just stop there. Anybody who looks at the facts can fill in the rest of that sentence.
The Skeptic.
Sour Grapes Joel! What goes around comes around!
This is the same pompous ASS who, (from his high throne) had the two innocent reporters from "The Journal" humiliated by having them forcibly removed from the COE meeting, to a round of applause from the rest of the COE lynch mob.
You asked for people to pray, to vote, and to review the issues. YOU LOST, grow up, you arent in "Young Ambassadorville" anymore!
Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA
Let the dezombification process begin!!! Maybe some are fixin' to have their relatives become normal people again. We can always hope......(and pray).
BB
'I have no preferences' said...
“I thought UCG's prayer style for corporate answers was interesting.
The first wave prays. If no answer, the second wave prays and if still no answer, the topic is tabled.”
Of course this is a classic of how disinformation gets around, and believed by so many others, and is totally incorrect.
But why would ‘I have no preferences’ think this is how UCG actually operates?
Most likely because an anonymous poster said a couple of weeks ago on a previous topic on this blog:-
“A useful approach is that used in the CGOM Conferences. Before each topic session three of those present (not just elders) pray for God's guidance. When a sticking point is encountered the next three in the row ask for guidance. When there is still no agreement the matter is temporarily set aside”.
Not a major point, but isn’t it interesting how incorrect information just gets spread around and believed.
You do wonder the truth content of rather more serious issues that get passed around so freely.
"It's about time the leaders get a taste of the cup that members have had to drink for all these many years. ( tastes kinda bitter doesn't it? )"
Methinks they won't be singing O Thou The Shepherd of Israel Art too too loudly, in coming weeks. Not the second verse, at any rate. ;-)
Be warned: United is not led by good people:
A truer statement was never spoken. Why don't they get together and round-up several members from the beginning Cincinnati United church that left and ask them why? What was all that fuss about? Ask Kubik, he probably remembers. He got enough flack from us. Others got flack as well, including Pinelli, Holladay, and Richard Thompson. None of them would help us. I remember telling a good friend that if they (leaders) do anything ungodly, I am out of here. I left about 2 months later. I haven't been sorry, that was about 12 years ago, I think. It was the time United was just starting. And they still haven't got their act together!
Opinions vary. I'm not a United member, but some friends who are members say they're very happy about stopping the move and removing the men who favor it from their governing council. They think those who pushed for the move are the bad guys. They like their church but do not approve of every leader in it.
Wow...just like the old EF posts I remember from Joel!! One year before the GCE he posted and said that the nonsalaried elders who didn't got to AC should talk with their Regional Pastor about who to vote for. Seems that the "worldly educated" elders who didn't go to AC...didn't have the brains to know who to vote for. Well, my husband had the brains to get his doctorate from University of Pittsburgh and has had his own dental practice for over 33 years. Joel's condescending posts were well known. This one does however take the cake. It shows a level of immaturity and vitriol that is almost unbelievable. But then again it is the same attitude we encountered in our local UCG congregation, and in several pastor's and in our RP. That is why we left and are so much happier now. If Joel is really so ashamed, I would expect him to take the high road and resign from the GCE. And is he is so ashamed he should leave UCG. Did anyone happend to notice all the hurled accusations that were not backed up by any facts? He seems especially disturbed that Aaron got reelected. Well, when Joel got elected the other year, believe me there were folks who were upset, but I never saw anyone one the other side write anything like that!! And Joel doesn't mention how they sat on the fact that Aaron spoke to another COG group at the Feast....UNTIL just a few weeks before the GCE..and then a letter was sent to all elders telling that Aaron had been censured. It was a ploy to keep Aaron from being reelected. Guess Joel isn't happy that the plan didn't work!!! And he also isn't happy that some of the truths about the move came out after the vote last year...information that had been withheld from the GCE when they voted FOR the move. They voted without full disclosure at the time. That is what made a revote necessary...but he didn't seem at all upset about the deceit, just that enough guys caught on to reverse it.
I guarantee that Joel's post will be applauded by way more elders than you can imagine!! So sad!!
Sue
You will note, the term "member" or "membership" or "church members" or "brethren" appears nowhere in Joel's write up. Simply put, the members do not matter to him or the others involved with this insanity.
A bad tree produces bad fruit. Time for those in UCG to deal with the reality of their situation.
But we all know that won't happen.
XX
Joel is right in a couple of areas. The fact that the forums have been filled with vile stuff is most likely true. There was talk of introducing a forum website that was moderated with only specified topics. Now that is control.
But what he fails to do is look at himself and those within his faction as to how they proceeded to cram the move down everyone's throat. The president of United gave a sermon this last week apologizing for the way last year was handled. Meeker's letter mutes that message of apology.
Instead of looking at this as an opportunity to see where and what damage needs to be repaired he goes on a tirade even personally attacking one of his own after talking about personal attacks on the forums.
Aaron speaking at another church which he has done that more than once. Even in one area, most of the members of that group went to united eventually, completely apolitical, they are some of the nicest people, seeing hope in United as a solution to the problems of the church dissolution in general and division specifically.
Was the censure of the council on Aaron Dean 100% or more akin to what was the vote when the Texas move was decided on.
With Joel and his like a consensus is a majority even if by one vote. There was no consensus for the move from the beginning.
Hey Joel--
One central tenant of Amrstorngism and all religious cults is that someone’s spiritual identity relates to the church organization, not the quality of one's relationship to God.
And when the church lets that person down, as they all do ultimately, it leaves a real kicked-in-the-stomach feel.
Wake up Joel and your fellow splinter members! You can’t be emotionally invested in a church organization and not be disappointed!
The worst thing is that much of this will not even be communicated to members. I don't expect to hear as though anything is amiss at Sabbath services tomorrow.
maybe they should have drawn lots.
Joel the Meeker Wrote:
We have just crossed a moral line. I don't believe we can ever go back to the ethics and principle-driven values we at least tried to have before.
That moral line was crossed before the UCG was ever founded, at 360 Grove Terrace while under the employ of the WCG. Initial conditions always set the stage for the fate of every complex organization. Live by the sword you shall die by the sword.
Populist politics have taken over – just like in the world; we have espoused a post-modern, emotion-driven worldview.
Versus what? An oligarchic, unfeeling heart-less worldview?
That's the problem with preaching the heart is deceitful about all things, the heart is the seat of conscience and emotion.
Sometimes I wonder if these people even have a heart chakra. Or if there is a great big hole there where it should be.
A majority of our balloting elders have shown they will not support the consensus of the GCE if they don't feel like it.
Its about time!
This reminds me a lot of the generational change taking place in the Democratic party, Obama the status quo weary Generation X'er displacing the narcissistic baby boomer Hillary Clinton.
Actually the same change is occurring in the Republican party, but their primary rules means it will be delayed a cycle or two.
Change is coming! Get used to it!
Joel Meeker's diatribe...
They have shown that they don't care about rules or codes if they don't feel like it, even if we've all previously agreed to abide by them. They have besmirched our ministerial code of ethics by reelecting a defiant, self-willed man to the Council.
Mais vous etes fous? Oh ouis!
Gavin,
A good ols stir is the spice of life.
Keep the good work up.
Jorgheinz
Guess this is the "Big Event" Nutty Ronnie was talking about. Anybody know how the 2 nitt-witts are doing??
360 Grove Terrace Not many know that UCG did form in that apartment with Kibik and a few other whiners. They formed UCG while they were all still employed by WCG. Then when they had enough followers and people to pledge money to them thy jumped ship. It was a smooth transition with all the money. Their lifestyles were still supported. If they had been honorable in starting UCG more people would have joined them. Far too many knew how they worked behind the scenes, discrediting people and the WCG. That's is why I never sat foot in one of their dumb cult churches.
Meeker is an abusive hypocrite! Like a whiny baby caught with their hand in the cookie jar, Meeker is whining because his power base buddies are out of office.
If Meeker truly treated people with respect and with Christian humility, his little tirade might have meaning. But then Meeker would have to be following Jesus, and that is a touchy topic for Armstrongites.
Meeker is just like most of the other ministurds, if he does not get his way or they ignore his voice he will take a stand and claim "he" is the one holding on to the truth and will split off to form another harlot daughter splinter cult. Meeker is no better off as a minster than Flurry or Weinland is. All three are of the same caliber.
Well, well, well! Aaron Dean is muzzled because of doing good and visiting another church. Plus a letter is sent out to all the elders of the council actions against Aaron to let everyone know of his awful deeds.
Now here comes Joel Meeker, slandering the church he belongs too, slandering the process, and slandering another member, while giving permission to share his post with others.
The big question is, how will the council deal with Meeker's temper tantrum?
My guess is, NOT A THING!
Joel Meeker couldn't find ANY real fault with Aaron Dean, so he had to pompously and indignantly imply that Aaron had done some dastardly deed by not going along with Meeker and his thugs. As Aaron's mortal enemy, and even with Satan's help and inspiration, Joel couldn't come up with ANY real sin or fault in Aaron. It must have been very frustrating for sneaky, conniving, guilty Joel.
May God Almighty hand that hypocrite Joel Meeker over to Satan for a while until Joel learns to control his sneaky inclinations, his temper tantrums, and his lying, slandering mouth.
In the (dis)United Church, nothing that God calls a sin is considered to be wrong or forbidden. In actual practice, all sorts of depravity is allowed, and welcomed, and loved. In fact, the UCG was specifically set up to feed so-called "ministers" and to cater to wicked people who did not want to behave properly.
The only thing that is not tolerated in the UCG is for any innocent person to simply tell the truth about what actually goes on there. Simply telling the truth is considered to be breaking the most important man-made rule in the whole organisation. You must keep quiet, unless you are some sort of wicked liar. In that case, you can carry on all you want.
It is somehow ungodly to change your mind? I seem to recall that god changed his mind about the wisdom of creating mankind. They were all so evil he "repented himself" of having created them and decided to drown them all in a flood. Then he changed his mind again and decided to spare Noah and his family.
Later he got ticked off at the Israelites and decided to wipe them all out and start over with Moses. Then Moses talked him out of it and he changed his mind again.
He decided to kill Hezikiah (sp?), then changed his mind and gave big H several more years of life.
So, apparently it is OK for god to change his mind but not OK for UCOG ministers to change their minds on a close vote. My view is that a sufficient number of the group came to their senses, "repented themselves" of their previous dumb decision, and decided "to turn around and go the other way."
HWA changed his mind about a half-dozen times on makeup. He changed his mind about which day is the correct one on which to observe Pentecost. He changed his mind about government in the church. He changed his mind about the primacy of Peter. He changed his mind about using medical doctors and drugs. He changed his mind about the "best age for marriage." He changed his mind about divorce and remarriage. He changed his mind about a church member's responsibility to "prove all things" - he finally decided that dictum only applied before one became part of the church, not after you became a member. Did the holy spirit keep switching back and forth like the polarity on an electromagnet in leading Herbert to make all those contradictory decisions?
It sounds to me like Meeker is just ticked off because the Council of Elders "top down" authority got overridden by the lowly field ministry and he ended up on the losing side. His vicious attack on Aaron Dean seems totally out of line and fueled by personal animosity. He sounds like a spoiled brat and a bully.
Further divisions and schisms in United and all the xcg groups would be a welcome development. I can't see United lasting much longer without a split - although I agree that a lot of ministers will be very reluctant to jump ship and risk their paychecks. Back in North Carolina, after Meredith dies the Living group will surely split.
May their tribes continue to diminish daily. I just hope that some of the inmates (members) comes to their senses and free themselves of all these parasites.
Joel sounds like such a spiolt brat when he does not get his own way. He reminds me of an old wcg "church government" racist from Cape Town called Henri Fortuin that I unfortunately came into contact with. When they have the power they are harsh when it ebbs away they whine like the emotional juveniles the are.
Sipho.
This calls for a split,hum what shall we call this new COG, can't think of one not taken,I got it!! Since Flip Wilson is dead we can use is old name, THE CHURCH OF GOD WHAT'S HAPPEN NOW.
Poooooor Joel...This is the two bit wantabe that was on the side of David Hume in 1999, He made a ass of himself then and he did it again. The COE needed to get rid of Aaron Dean because he is to honest. He wont let those on the COE that mislead geat away with it. He tries to keeps them honest and they dont like it. Joel needs to go. Does the COE and the rest of the elders have what it takes to get rid of one of the kiss-up good ol boys club member? I hope Aaron helps all of Gods people where they may be and let God take care of those that try to surpress a man after Gods own heart. I left United because of the attitudes like Joel and alot of the playing church self serving ministers. United Better wake up... Joel just started a split of United. Maybe that is what God wants. to scatter his people some more and he is letting the pompus joels do it .
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