What a complete plonker Gerry Flurry is!That, of course, is merely a statement of my honestly held opinion. There are, it seems, a number of people who think that, to the contrary, he should be taken seriously.
Those folk need to take notice of the front cover of his latest Trumpet magazine.
"Major news sources ask Will Christ Ever Return? Yes, He will. And probably within a decade!"
Haven't we all heard that before?
The "major news sources" reference is to Newsmax, described on Wikipedia as "a propaganda and media organization of the American extreme right-wing..." I guess that passes as "major" for the like-minded house-writers cloned at PCG.
Weirdly enough, this same issue contains - along with the usual hateful political dilettantism and drivel - a story about Herb Armstrong's misplaced sense of apocalyptic expectation. As the tale goes, back in the 1920s a group of journos were shooting the breeze about "what would be the most astonishing and dramatic newspaper headline." One hack suggested "Second Coming of Christ Happened This Morning!"
Little did they know that the future End Time Sole Apostle was in their midst, who sagely then observed: "You men may live long enough to write that headline."
The last laugh was on the High and Herbaceous One: as Bonnie Prince Stephen drolly observes, "As it turns out, they didn't. Neither did Mr. Armstrong."
And the lesson is? Well, whatever it might be, it has clearly zinged straight past the Edmond heir-head.
53 comments:
The "major news sources" reference is to Newsmax, described on Wikipedia as "a propaganda and media organization of the American extreme right-wing..."
well, what would you expect from Wikipedia?
To quote Dr. Thomas P. M. Barnett:
"The future has a way of happening. As much as man is inclined to believe that his end time is THE end time, it is not. And it has been thus since the beginning of time. Further to that, our present would have been as implausible to our forbears as the events and innovations of the next decades would be to us today."
HWA saw the arrival of nuclear weapons on the planet as evidence that the final generation of man's rule was at hand. We as a civilization had just been through the worst calamity in history and his assessment that mankind lacked the wisdom to keep that genie bottled up for long, seemed pretty reasonable. Who could argue?
But, I think there is fairly good evidence that things could go on for a lot longer (more than 10-11 years) AND get much worse before God's intervention becomes absolutely necessary.
Furthermore, world events will not be the deciding factor, mankind's spiritual condition will be. And I don't know how anyone human can effectively measure that.
This is not the only sign that Gerald Flurry is getting his followers all hyped up.
In 2001 he announced that we had entered the "last hour."
Then on June 4, 2005 he said we were in the last half of the last hour as LCG apologist Bob Thiel reports.
Then last year on July 26 "That Prophet" Gerald Flurry stated in a sermon that he believed the Great Tribulation would begin in "five years or less." He makes that comment 45:25 within the sermon.
To me it seems this latest declaration is part of a pattern. It is not an isolated declaration brought on by enthusiasm. PCG seems to be stoking the apocalyptic fervor among their followers.
And by the way, love that point about Stephen bringing up that story about HWA and the journalists. PCG really hasn't learned anything.
Everyone knows Jesus wanted to come in 1975, but the membership wasn't ready! WE delayed JESUS! WE RUINED HERBERT'S PROPHECY!
(BTW: That's not a joke, HWA SAID THAT! I was in the audience that day.)
Flurry asserts...
>>"Major news sources ask Will Christ Ever Return? Yes, He will.<<
Well, the above agrees with what Christ promised and the angels confirmed.
>>"And probably within a decade!"<<
The term "probably" means that Flurry doesn't have the faintest idea when Christ will return, and is just hedging his bets.
But Flurry is not the only person claiming prophetic insight. Note this from Larry. "But, I think there is fairly good evidence that things could go on for a lot longer (more than 10-11 years) AND get much worse before God's intervention becomes absolutely necessary."
"Fairly good evidence?" Would you care to post some of that evidence here, so that those who still believe in prophecy may be edified?
Then Larry concluded with this definitive assertion: "Furthermore, world events will not be the deciding factor, mankind's spiritual condition will be."
What? Where is the evidence to support this prophecy, or is it speculation? I know that Joe junior disposed of all of HWA's prophetic writings, branding them "the religion of fear," but does know he has a prophet in his midst?
Jesus, the man, is not coming back. The "personification" of truth, love, justice and mercy, however, may return at any time.
Well, not exactly. Remember that there has to be two things done first. The temple has to be rebuilt and the "man of sin", the great false prophet who will rule the whole world from that temple has to appear.
First things first everybody.
Muhahahahahahaha hah
Sigh.
Well at least he has enough sense to not proclaim himself a Witness of Revelation and that Christ's coming in 2012.
That said...
He's dangling a prophetic maybe out there and not being too specific...
It took JWs about 100 years to learn THAT lesson.
Waiting for Christ's return or the beginning of The End is a lot like waiting for a bus that is late.... everyone's asking when it will be here, what time it supposed to come, people 'see it coming,' but it's actually another bus, etc.
Sigh.
I don't ride buses btw. I ride a bike or walk.
(Waiting for more egg on Ron's face while simmering up some crow.)
Dill Weed
"...and probably within ten years."
So, yet another generation of youngsters, suffering under the cultic thumb of armstrongism will grow up believing that they will have no future.
Corky said: «The temple has to be rebuilt»
Ezek40:3, Dan 10:6, Rev 11:1 It takes an angel to measure the temple--it cannot be seen, it is a spiritual building, because 1 Cor 3:16-17, 11 Cor 6:16, say Christians are the temple of God. Christ tells us that where two or three are gathered in His name (Matt 18:20) He will be. The ekklesia is a worldwide organization connected only in the mind and heart that sacrifices on a daily basis by praying to God the Father and by obeying God and loving neighbor.
No way will anyone find a physical building, in Jerusalem or out of it, that can be the temple referenced in the Scriptures to appear at the end of the age. If you're looking for a physical building in Jerusalem with physical sacrifices--you have missed the boat.
Obedience to the law means that you know that hate in the mind is murder, whether you perpetrate the deed or not; the same with lust in the mind is sin, whether you follow through with the screwing or not!
The problem with the churches of God is that they are still walking around with their yardsticks, blinded by physical thinking, when Christianity is all about being born again and not living in physicality--it is the Son of God housed in a tent of flesh, with either indoor or outdoor plumbing, that is the being God is concerned with (Gal 3:28).
Oh, I see that some people don't like Wikipedia.
At least now, there's Conservapedia to tell us that it's a scientific fact that Jesus rode on a dinosaur.
What's next, Herbiepedia to tell us that is OK to have daughter-sex?
Or Tedapedia to tell us that it's great fun to be a serial sexual predator?
Larry said:
«Furthermore, world events will not be the deciding factor, mankind's spiritual condition will be. And I don't know how anyone human can effectively measure that.»
Obedience is a garment that is put on “daily” … when Adam ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, both he and Eve realized that they were naked (Gen 3:7). Because Eve was taken from Adam and was his helpmate, Adam was Eve’s “covering.” Therefore, sin did not enter this world when Eve ate forbidden fruit, for her disobedience was covered by Adam’s obedience. But Adam had no covering but his obedience to the one command the Lord had given him; so when Adam ate, no covering remained. Both were naked. Physically, they were naked before, but as grace is a mental landscape, obedience is mental clothing. Therefore, the Rebellion (or great falling away) of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 will see the vast majority of Christendom return to sin, to disobedience, thereby making these rebelling Christians bondservants to sin that leads to death (Rom 6:16). And when this Rebellion occurs, Israel’s daily putting on of obedience as a garment will cease; the daily or daily sacrifice will have ended.
Those Sabbatarian disciples that look for the resumption of animal sacrifices in a rebuilt temple look amiss. They have abandoned Christ; they are without discernment, and having tasted of the goodness of God, they are now really without hope for Christ Jesus will not be crucified anew. Hence, it is important for disciples to understand that they are today the temple of God, and their daily obedience is the sacrifice they offer to God.
How can an Ambassador trained pastor preach the same thing for 40 years and not realize that he or she is spiritually dead. Even “the dead” would recognize that no growth over forty years isn’t growing in grace and knowledge.
Observing that something may possibly happen soon wouldn't be quite so bad. Their problem is that (metaphorically speaking) the movement has been flogging members with this whip for decades! In a deeply spiritual sense, manipulated behavior is of no value. Only behavior motivated by love counts.
What are we up to now, over ten potentially existential threats in addition to the bomb? Any fear monger has no shortage of material with which to manipulate others, if that's what they want to do. Fortunately, all of us here have seen the inside of the joke, and realize that Armstrongism is all a waste!
BB
Over ten years ago I met a man in the PCG who thought back then that they were going to flee to Petra within two years.
He should have been open-minded enough to research the history of the WCG and its splinter groups. He could have learned that people have been through such things before with HWA's five decades of wrong timing for the end. Unlucky for him that the PCG forbids its members to read "dissident literature" or to look up the true facts on the Internet.
In the PCG, lies are called "truth" and the truth is called "lies." In the PCG good is called "evil" and evil is called "good."
When someone lies as much as Gerald Flurry does, he has to keep his followers in total ignorance (or else they would not long be following him).
In contrast, the Bible says something about knowing the truth and the truth setting one free. The truth certainly would set one free from lying frauds like Gerald.
Tom, the world that is described as being in existence at the time of Christ's return simply does not yet exist.
It is a world where sin is pervasive, greed is the watchword, and yet there is incredible wealth and stifling government control, to the point that the true worship of God is banned or at least driven completely underground. We haven't reached that place yet. There are still MANY good people left on this planet.
Yes, we are certainly headed in that direction, but it takes generations to descend into the perversion that God describes. Spiritually, the world is not yet like Sodom, and the Church has not "made herself ready". Yes, we are heading in the direction on both those fronts as well, but they are both a long way away.
"well, what would you expect from Wikipedia?"
More than I expect from the bible. And, not coincidentally, anybody who believes in those fables.
Bill L. Writes:
When will there start being a "futures contract" traded at prediction intrade future markets about the "Second Coming"??
Potentially you could hedge your tithe investment on a false prophets prediction, by buying a "put option" against the return of Christ, reimbursing your investment should your prophet turn out wrong!
Hey, if the big boys can do it with swaps and deriavitives, why not small fry cult members??
https://www.intrade.com/
Did you ever notice, that the older the Great Leader gets, the closer Christ's return gets?
Using one's own self as a guide to prophecy is not a reliable metric.
VonHowitzer
Jesus certainly is NOT going to return in Six Pack's lifetime. Nor will he likely return in Six Pack Juniors life time. Since Herb stated over and over again that Jesus had to delay his coming because of all the stupid members, Jesus will not be returning till the last Armstrongite dies off. Kind of like the Children of Israel wandering for 40 years till the old generation died off
ummm...So in 2008 Flurry believed that the Great Tribulation will begin in five years or less (2013 or earlier). The GT will last 3 and a half years so based on that scenario Christ should return by 2016/7 "or less."
Now in this magazine he says Christ will return "within a decade." (2019.) However the use of the word "within" seems to suggest Flurry expects Christ to return slightly earlier then that. That would coincide with his earlier prediction.
Of course I don't believe this and I know that Gerald Flurry is just a false prophet who should not be taken seriously.
To bad the PCG members will now act as though the world will end in five years or so. No doubt they will be disappointed.
As a corollary to my post above, I will add a small salient fact which shows that Christianity is the true religion.
ALL the world's great religions were started in Malthusian times. Only Christianity prophesied that mankind's condition would improve in the future (before Christ's return).
The Bible clearly predicted that Christ would return during the Bible Writers' lifetimes. It didn't happen. It was a failed prophecy. Christ did not return.
So why do (a small minority of) people still debate "when Christ will return"? Don't they realize it didn't happen?
The Skeptic
Anonymous wrote:
The problem with the churches of God is that they are still walking around with their yardsticks, blinded by physical thinking, when Christianity is all about being born again and not living in physicality--it is the Son of God housed in a tent of flesh, with either indoor or outdoor plumbing, that is the being God is concerned with (Gal 3:28).
Sounds to me like you exchanged one yardstick for another.
".....we are of all men most miserable."
Anonymous said: «The Bible clearly predicted that Christ would return during the Bible Writers' lifetimes.»
Clearly, Sir, you are without discernment.
John 21:22 Jesus said to Peter (speaking of John), "If I want him to live until I come again, how does that concern you? Follow me!"
In Revelation 1, John clearly says he was in Spirit (i.e., seeing a vision of the last days) and saw the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
So, the Lord did "come" in the disciples' (albeit the last one, John's) lifetime.
By looking for a physical temple to be built in earthly Jerusalem (one might be built, but that temple will not believe that God would give His spirit and fill with His spirit a billion plus presently lawless Christians who are really “Christian” in name only. They will not accept them as brothers—and where token acceptance is extended (especially in the case of messianic Judaism), so many rules and regulations will be given to these new Christian converts (from the Christianity of the interregnum) that these infant sons of God will be driven into the waiting arms of the man of perdition. Whereas these Sabbatarian disciples should be laborers that help in the harvest of God, they will instead be baby killers. Thus, they, themselves, will be rejected.
For half a century, Herbert Armstrong reduced the gospel of Christ Jesus to a “give” versus “get” way of life. At the physical level he was correct, but the disciple is not a physical creature that acquires the things of this world. Rather, the disciple is the inner new self that has been born of spirit through the person receiving a second breath of life, the breath of God, and the disciple doesn’t store up treasure here on earth but in heaven, where the disciple has actual life while dwelling in a tent of flesh here in this world. It is the tent of flesh that acquires the things of this world; that needs to gather the things of this world to sustain life; that practices either a give or get way of life. The new creature has no need for the things of this world and isn’t involved in a get way of life, but either believes God or doesn’t.
What Armstrong should have said is that the gospel of Christ can be reduced to either believe God (John 5:24) or perish in the lake of fire. Evil is nothing more than unbelief. Sin is disobedience, manifest as a transgression of the Law. The Lord consigned all of humankind to disobedience (Rom 11:32) because of the transgression of the first Adam (Rom 5:12–14); thus, the sin of those who have not come under the Law will not be reckoned or counted against them in this lifetime. They need no “covering” for their transgressions of the commandments. They are “covered” by a natural form of grace, or simply, natural grace. But this doesn’t mean that they will be or are saved. This merely means that they will not immediately die physically for their transgressions of the Law; they have “time” for the work of the Law to write itself onto their hearts (Rom 2:15) if that is their desire … the work of the Law is to love God with heart and mind, and to love neighbor as self. If the Lord didn’t or doesn’t reveal Himself to the person by calling the person out from sin, the work of the Law is reduced to the person loving neighbor and brother as the person loves him or herself.
"For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."
So you are full of it, SKMarin.
Jesus was believed by the NT writers to make his return visit in their own lifetimes, in their generation. It didn't happen.
Why didn't it happen?
Because it's all a big made up story just like the book of Mormon. An invention, a hoax, made up from piecing together OT quotes taken completely out of context.
Just a copy/paste mix and match with a story flow added to it.
❝SKMarin said...
Anonymous said: «The Bible clearly predicted that Christ would return during the Bible Writers' lifetimes.»
Clearly, Sir, you are without discernment. ❞
WOW...SUCH CONFIDENCE YOU HAVE IN YOUR POSITION! Oh Gavin! I am sorely tempted....
❝
John 21:22 Jesus said to Peter (speaking of John), "If I want him to live until I come again, how does that concern you? Follow me!"
In Revelation 1, John clearly says he was in Spirit (i.e., seeing a vision of the last days) and saw the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
So, the Lord did "come" in the disciples' (albeit the last one, John's) lifetime.❞
Er...there's just one tiny problem with that logic.
The author "John" of Revelation is not the same author as the book of John.
But it was a nice try.
Its also hard to correlate the YHWH fire and brimstone style God of Revelation with what had to be the nature of the John who was pals to Jesus.
Remember it was Jesus who gave us the concept of the "Abba Father".
If that John was so close to Jesus heart, its difficult to imagine (even if we didn't have the scholarly evidence) that he later wrote the most demented book of the Bible. It just doesn't add up.
But such is the nature of pseudo-eponymous books. Just because one can imitate Shakespeare, doesn't make one Shakespeare.
>>>Those Sabbatarian disciples that look for the resumption of animal sacrifices in a rebuilt temple look amiss. They have abandoned Christ; they are without discernment, and having tasted of the goodness of God,
Animal sacrifices are here today, it happens when an animal is killed in the slaughterhouse. We eat the meat after the animal has sacrificed its life for us.
God intended man to originally be vegetarians, but sin, changed the order of society.
Are we saying then, we are without grace because we partake of meat, (another form of animal sacrifice)?
Christians that are really honest are vegetarians!
>>>The problem with the churches of God is that they are still walking around with their yardsticks, blinded by physical thinking
John Wheeler, Living Church of God wrote: "When the New Covenant was ratified and the Holy Spirit promised by it was made available, the wearing of "tassels" was no longer necessary."
There is classic Armstrong double talk. The law is abolished by the Holy Spirt, so now we no longer have to physically keep the law in the way the Israelites did! Spiritualising most of the LAW!
Armstrongism removes the physical requirements of:
1. circumcision 2. tassels 3. kippahs 4. drain blood from animals 5. observe purity laws
Armstrong heaped most of the laws under Levitical laws and done away with them except those mentioned in the New Testamant (Sabbath, Holy Days, Unclean meats)defining them as moral or spiritual law and twisted the tithing laws for his benefit.
The truth is, HWA didn't want to stand out from the crowd, gave his fellowers a couple of Old Testament laws to keep whilst disregarding large portions of the Torah. There are 613 laws in total, ask yourself, how many of these did you actually keep?
>>>He should have been open-minded enough to research the history of the WCG and its splinter groups.
What good if any will do that in the long term? Few if any ex Armstrongites will ever go back into mainstream Christianity. They either bow out of religion altogether or remain in limbo (going backwards and forwards between the theology seemingly not being able to make their minds up).
The kindest thing would be to have left the man in his position of ignorance!
"The "personification" of truth, love, justice and mercy, however, may return at any time."
I would add to the end "to any human being, in any place, regardless of belief, circumstances, religion, or deity of choice (or none)."
Also: Not a "personification" in the anthropomorphic sense, but in the sense that such a person who has thus "returned" (to themselves), may then have a clearer perspective of what it means to be a better person.
As to whether or not they put that perspective into action in their lives and the world around them once it has been realized, there's this verse in Matthew, something about fruit trees.......
Ah-hahahahaha we snagged a Real Live Preterist folks!! (Re: SKMarin's "The Second Coming really happened! It was all SpuuuuurrrrriCHOOOOOL!")
Funny, Ron Weinland says the same thing about his Trumpets....over and over (and over) again.
Jesus is coming tonight oops I thought he was, just nasa sending a rocket to the moon for a second I thought I seen a white horse, we need two more two witnesses Ronnie is a flop.
larry said...
>>Tom, the world that is described as being in existence at the time of Christ's return simply does not yet exist.<<
If you had said does not FULLY exist, I would agree.
>>It is a world where sin is pervasive, greed is the watchword, and yet there is incredible wealth and stifling government control, to the point that the true worship of God is banned or at least driven completely underground. We haven't reached that place yet.<<
I don't know what the conditions are like where you live or which news media you read or watch, but sins of every kind, rampant greed and government control exist in every country on earth!
>>There are still MANY good people left on this planet.<<
What? Who are they, can we have some names, please?
>>Spiritually, the world is not yet like Sodom,<<
It that case, Sodom must have been pretty awful! For today homosexuality and lesbianism are accepted as normal lifestyles, and legislation has been implemented to allow couples to marry. Meanwhile, it has recently been reported that around 66% of heterosexual couples are living together, instead of getting married, and near 40% of all marriages end in divorce. And if I begin to outline the other problems that threaten to overwhelm us, this post would be too long.
>>and the Church has not "made herself ready".<<
Which church are referring to?
However, my point was, how comfortable is your position in GCI, when Joe junior does not believe in prophecy?
">>There are still MANY good people left on this planet.<<"
You know who said: "What? Who are they, can we have some names, please?"
That self-righteous bigot in you is starting to shine right through again Tom.
Tom,
yes I did mean that that world does not FULLY exist.
And yes, things will get MUCH worse. Every generation seems to believe that things are as bad as they can possibly get, and then they get worse (morally and spiritually). You ain't seen nothin' yet.
And who ever said that "Joe junior" doesn't believe in prophecy? He and the Church rightly believe that prophecy should not be where the Church places its emphasis, for reasons that become apparent to anyone who reads many of the posts here. There has been way too much focus on specific prophecy (and setting dates), not only in the ex-WCG and splinters, but in other churches as well.
Tom, there ARE still MANY good people, devout and converted Christians out there, If you haven't seen them, you are keeping your eyes closed.
As for the "Church", I mean THE Church as a whole, around the world, Catholics, Protestants, independents, etc. The Christian Church is growing in grace and knowledge, and gradually leaving legalism behind. We in the GCI like to believe that we are leading the way. And, it appears that we are.
Ron Wheeler wrote:
"When the New Covenant was ratified and the Holy Spirit promised by it was made available, the wearing of "tassels" was no longer necessary."
Someone replied:
....[that] is classic Armstrong double talk.
The law is abolished by the Holy Spirt, so now we no longer have to physically keep the law in the way the Israelites did! Spiritualising most of the LAW!
In my evangelical phase I bought that argument too. But I soon realized, especially among Calvinists, they had created a new Torah with even more exhaustive prohibitions and requirements.
I think a better argument is that
Jews didn't (and don't) believe in an afterlife. Although early Judaism appears to have believed in reincarnation.
The law was meant to apply to daily life as a human being and therefore completely inapplicable to one status in the afterlife. Jews don't believe in an afterlife.
The Jewish mind deals with the here and now. One can even be an atheist and still be accepted in a Jewish Temple. And Jewish Rabbi's do not shun people who disagree with the Rabbi.
The Christian mind is on the life after this and whatever "reward" awaits.
You can't retroject modern thinking about the life to come into ancient Hebrew writings that didn't believe in it, and be honest about it.
There's no need to "spiritualize" away the Torah, when contemplating the applicability of the Torah to the Christian.
I suspect the reason the Torah is referenced in Christian writings was that the new religion wanted to expropriate ancient texts as their own to give the weight of history to the movement. Much in the same way earlier Rome imported gods from Greece.
Where would the cog prophets be without words like "may" or "perhaps" or "probably", they would be lost!
Dill Weed said:
"Well at least he has enough sense to not proclaim himself a Witness of Revelation and that Christ's coming in 2012."
He does, however, claim to be "that prophet", so he is, in my opinion, crazier than Wienland.
Robert said:
"God intended man to originally be vegetarians, but sin, changed the order of society."
Then why do we have canine teeth?
Purple Hymnal said...
"The "personification" of truth, love, justice and mercy, however, may return at any time."
I would add to the end "to any human being, in any place, regardless of belief, circumstances, religion, or deity of choice (or none)."
Also: Not a "personification" in the anthropomorphic sense, but in the sense that such a person who has thus "returned" (to themselves), may then have a clearer perspective of what it means to be a better person.
As to whether or not they put that perspective into action in their lives and the world around them once it has been realized, there's this verse in Matthew, something about fruit trees.......
-------------------------------
Thanks for clearing that up a little. I seriously doubt though, that anyone will get that any more than what "in the spirit" or "born from above" means. Oh, that's right, their KJV says "born again". How silly of me....
"Major news sources ask Will Christ Ever Return? Yes, He will. And probably within a decade!"
Major news sources (unnamed) even believe in a Christ? No!
Gerald Flurry a plonker.Who would have guessed.
Of course, I am being completely disingenuous,whatever that means.
Gerald,like dear old Ron Weinland changes his prophetic calendar like some folks change their socks,in this case,more than less.
Sincere suckers still contribute their gold despite the obvious shortcomings of Gerry's throw-away gospel.
Let's wish Gerry a Merry Mid-Winter Xmas with mulled wine,with the man himself being the turkey.
Cheers,
Jorgheinz
Jorgheinz, I think you've just revealed your location in the currently frigid Southern Hemisphere. And I always thought you were living in Gibraltar!
As for mulled wine, it sounds delightful. I've always wanted to try it. Anyone got a good recipe to share?
>>>Then why do we have canine teeth?
To chew the cud! Or much grass like Nebechanezzar.
Gavin,
We Germanised Brits have been known to live in the aforementioned possession,getting in,of course,some practice for living in the Herbal Petra paradise,no entendre intended.Hope that doesn't ROCK you.
As for mulled wine,it is delicious, and I am sure that a recipe could be made available upon receipt of certain mandatory contributions.
Cheers,
Jorgheinz
"I seriously doubt though, that anyone will get that any more than what "in the spirit" or "born from above" means. Oh, that's right, their KJV says "born again". How silly of me...."
I certainly didn't say it was possible, at all, for humans to start acting with truth, mercy, justice, and love; I'm just saying that's the point the text is making. The ethics of reciprocity, if you like.
The point of the text, unfortunately, seems to escape both theists AND non-theists alike, these days.
And if the "born again" phrasing makes you (like it does me) want to puke, the gnostic texts refer to it as "the resurrection from the dead", which is a more accurate description of the psychological transition from a self-centred worldview, to an empathic one, than the cruci-FICTION allegory, or the literalized version of it anyway, than the "born-againer" nonsense.
I still remain highly skeptical that such a transition is possible however. No matter how we try to label it, in the hopes that it might eventually come "true".
Mulled Wine - Vin Brûlé
During this holiday season as the weather outside is cold and drear, I promise you this wonderful beverage will warm you and bring feelings of contentment. Dim the lights, cuddle in that cozy chair by the fire, and sip away. Enjoy!
Il faut prendre une pinte du meilleru Vin de Bourgogne. Les Vins de Champagne ne valent rein pour cela. Mettez ce Vin dans une Chocolatiere, avec demi-livre de sucre, une feüille de Macis, deux clous de girofle, & un petit baton de canella, deux dousaines de grains de coriander, & deux ou trios zests de citron, & deux feüilles de laurier franc: mettez ensuite vôtre chocolatiere devant un bon feu, & du charbon allumé tour autour; & quand vôtre vin fera bien chaud, ce que vous connoîtrez à la vapeur ou fume, vous y mettrez le feu avec du papier allumé, & la laisserz brûler jusqu’a ce qu’il s’éreigne tout seul: ensuite moûillez une serviette blanche, & le passez au travers dans une éguiere. Le server tout chaud.
Page 340, Nouvelle Instruction Pour Les Confitures, Les Liqueurs et Les Fruits de Massialot
• It is necessary to take one pint of the best wine of Burgundy. The Champagne wines are not the best for this.
• Put this wine in a chocolatiere or pipkin [ceramic, non-reactive oven-proof vessel], with a half-pound of sugar, a blade of mace, two cloves, a small stick of cinnamon, two dozen grains of coriander, two or three zests of lemon [I sometimes use orange], & two leaves of French bay-laurel [I find any other laurel to be too strong]:
• then put your chocolatiere in front of a good fire; as it sets in the coals, turn it around until it’s quite hot, which you will know from the steaming vapor;
• you will set the vapors on fire with lit paper, & allow it to burn until it dies out:
• then strain it through a wet, white cloth napkin into a ewer [tin, pewter, silver, vermeil, crystal were all used]. Serve very hot.
http://18thccuisine.blogspot.com/2005/12/vin-brl.html
Purple Hymnal said...
I still remain highly skeptical that such a transition is possible however. No matter how we try to label it, in the hopes that it might eventually come "true".
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I'm going with "not possible". Create a figure and try to emulate that figure in order to be "saved"? Nah, it ain't gonna happen.
That's not to say that a person cannot possibly reflect the image of "the perfect man" but it would always be dependent upon what one may believe is the perfect man.
Well, just to be safe, I'm going to move to Petra and stay there. I will ride a camel and breathe dust and eat desert plants and animals (all clean, of course). When the rest of you get there I will show you around.
"I'm going with "not possible". Create a figure and try to emulate that figure in order to be "saved"? Nah, it ain't gonna happen."
You misunderstand me, Cork; I wasn't talking about creating a god and then living up to it (no believer has ever done that since history's started to be recorded); I'm saying that I doubt it is possible for people who don't already practice truth, mercy, love &c in their lives, to start.
Not that I think there are many who practice those things to begin with......
No Jethro, anyone at Petra will be killed in the first round of nukes aimed at Israel.
I wonder if Iran doesn't know that to nuke Israel is the same as nuking the Palestinians? Not to mention everyone else in the surrounding countries.
So no, you won't be safe in the deserts over there - I figure it will all be turned to glass sooner or later.
Purple Hymnal said: «a Real Live Preterist folks!!»
If I believe that the physical precedes the spiritual (1 Cor 15:46), and the visible reveals the invisible (Rom 1:20) then things that have happened, i.e, events BCE and the first Century's lives of the Apostles and the Revelation of Christ through John, can tell me what yet is to be. If you have no chink in the bricks of the box surrounding your mind you cannot go where I am and we really have no basis for discussion--name calling will not suffice. I await with bated breath the final coming of the Lord.
"I await with bated breath the final coming of the Lord."
Armstrongism has been holding its breath for three-quarters of a century, and look how brain-dead it is.
I wouldn't hold my breath too long, SKMarin, otherwise you'll find yourself on "the other side" sooner rather than later!
Seriously, all kidding aside: Stop waiting for a physical event that was proven to be a false prophecy two thousand years ago.
"Rather, the kingdom is inside you and outside you. When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and will understand that you are children of the Aeons of the Pleroma. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and embody poverty." - Gospel of Thomas
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