Despite Paul Kieffer having fallen on his sword, word is that the hounds are still baying. How did it all happen? AW has received copies of tedious and lengthy missives sent to the COE by Houston South UCG members Brian and Rhonda Waddle, who seem to have precipitated this situation by "much importunity." There is also a somewhat testy reply by Scott Ashley (and hey, I think he showed admirable restraint!) If you're a UCG member, and not yet sufficiently depressed, ask your pastor to email you copies - he almost certainly has them.Frankly, viewed from an outsider perspective, the whole thing has been a circus; giving the lie to the "united" descriptor in UCG's name. Would the Waddle's complaints have been treated differently without behind-the-scenes barracking from leading ministers who are out of step with the new COE?
60 comments:
So two members of the Houston congregation knew of some shady dealings Kieffer did while he was Gestapo in the WCG, and them bringing those dealings to light, led him to make a huffy flounce?
Actually, that makes all kinds of sense, given that it's UCG......
The good people at UCG are doing their very best to run an autocratic, dictatorial, Byzantine political organization in a humble, loving, and Christian manner. But the Bible predicted the internet (Psalm 140:5) and said it would ensnare the scoffers therein (Psalm 57:6). Those of you who scoff and pisseth against the wall (I Samuel 25:22)shall come to naught (Isaiah 40:23).
Brian Waddle is just the tip of the iceburg Gavin. There is a massive amount of unhappiness and anger among both UCG ministers and members. The unethical practices of the radicals that hold the majority of seats on the Council of Elders will never be accepted by many of us in UCG. The only way to stop the extreme tension is for more of these men to resign.
Let's be specific.
Scott Ashley must resign.
Melvin Rhoades must resign.
Darris McNeely must resign.
Roy Holladay must resign.
Robin Webber must resign.
Aaron Dean must resign.
These are the 6 specific radicals that must resign their seats if they care at all about the United Church of God. Speaking for many members of United, they will never be accepted as legitimate by us because of their philosophies and actions. They all have gifts in other areas (writing, researching, and one's gift seems to be telling HWA stories), but their gift is not that of leadership and administration. For the good of the Church they should gracefully step aside so we can go back to the peace we enjoyed in former years.
UCG Member
PEACE IN UCG...you have got to be kidding me. Having been there for several years...somewhat on the inside...there has NEVER been peace in UCG...that is why I left, so I could have peace!! The guys you name are the relatively good guys...they believe in freedom...not oppression of members and their talents. I guess your post demonstrates the REAL problem in UCG...it is not United...there have been 2 or more camps since the beginning and they will continue to dual and try to get the majority on the COE. I am wondering why you didn't include Vic Kubik in your list...he is on the same page with those you named...if you don't know that, you don't know much.
If you like the old guard mentality of oppression and acting like dictators...you must like the "big governement" approach we are seeing also in the US government at this time. I see a direct correlation between the "big government" approach in both the church and the US government. Both want to tell the little folks what to do in more and more detail.
Not what the Bible teaches...IMHO.
What are "the unethical practices of the radicals"?
Wow, the plot thickens! Were these Waddels helped by the wife of a minister known for his opposition to the United Council? That is what some are saying anyway, after looking at the stuff.
Based upon my conversations with current UCG members I currently know and keep in contact with, the blogger who identifies himself (or herself) as "UCG Member" has hit the nail squarely on the head in their assessment.
There is an awful lot of unhappiness and discontent swirling beneath the surface - both among the membership as well as the ministry.
That's why I think it's only a matter of time until yet another dramatic split will occur, accompanied by all the cosmic "good versus evil" self-righteous rhetoric that usually happens with COG divisions of this nature.
UCG, of course, in the great COG tradition, will initially attempt to paper it all over as a relatively minor and peaceful matter of “irreconcilable differences” etc, etc.
But the split will most likely come, lives and families will be shattered, accusatory words thrown back and forth across the theological chasm...and yet at the end of the day, nothing will ever change because these folks refuse to take the ONE crucial and irreplaceable step that could truly change things and revolutionize their lives for the better: to seriously question the many nonsensical assumptions that COG religion is entirely built upon and springs out of, and humbly search for more realistic and fact-based alternatives.
This is the ONLY step that will ever bring them permanent peace of mind.
Well, at least one UCG elder is feeding all of this to outside sources. So, there is part of the "the unethical practices of the radicals" plus what has been brought out already. None of the 6 will step up though...
Anonymous said...
So two members of the Houston congregation knew of some shady dealings Kieffer did while he was Gestapo in the WCG, and them bringing those dealings to light, led him to make a huffy flounce?
Actually, that makes all kinds of sense, given that it's UCG......
If that were the case then fellow hatchet men Kubik and Salyer would be soon following, but that ain't gonna happen.
I am told that during the past three Council elections, there was a systematic replacement of those who want more of a WCG-hierarchical, controlling approach. The new COE members (until Kiefer's resignation, 10 members) emphasize leadership, service and inclusiveness. The "old school" -- led by Jim Franks, Joel Meeker, Doug Horchak, Clyde Kilough -- wants to rule, keeping leadership responsibilities within a closed circle of a few, punishing those who even slightly disagree. Kieffer was targeted -- he was not the first, nor will he be the last. Dave Baker has his loyalties to Meeker and Franks.
The real problem is Franks, and most of the regional pastors, who keep supplying a few members with false and divisive information, to keep the rumor-mill going and ruin the reputations of the best people UCG has. United has rarely had peace. It does not now. And it won't until non-dictatorial people are put into the administration.
I want to know what "the unethical practices of the radicals" are too!
Maybe squandering the tithepayers' money on a swanky fishing trip for all members of the Council of Evil, after last year's GCE....?
Which still doesn't answer the question, What did Kieffer do?
"the majority of seats on the Council of Elders"
theres your problem right. gods government is not meant to be led by committee of men with the spirit of man.
Perhaps the only solution to UCG's ongoing schisms is for UCG and LCG to unite under the strong leadership of the Rod.
This may describe what is going on..
Napoleon complex is a colloquial term describing an alleged type of inferiority complex which is said to affect some people, especially men, who are short in stature. The term is also used more generally to describe people who are driven by a perceived handicap to overcompensate in other aspects of their lives. This term is also known as Napoleon syndrome,[1] Short Man syndrome,[2] Little Man syndrome and Small Man syndrome.
"The guys you name are the relatively good guys...they believe in freedom...not oppression of members and their talents."
This is so true! And yes, I guess they failed to mention Vic because they know how well loved he is.
These guys (the new council)represents the kind of church that people wanted when United began. People wanted to get away from the dictatorship of WCG. However, the last few years the church was high- jacked by men like Franks, Kilough and others that wanted to take the church into a top down government.
It is the membership, elders, that voted these men on the council and voted Franks off “twice.” Franks is only on the council by default because of an open seat vacated recently from Thompson and Kilough. Franks and Horchak was next in line. By the way Horchak was also voted against to be on the council. So he too is on the council by default. Franks losing twice by votes from the GCE says a lot and sends out a loud message of what they think of Franks.
There are complaints that the new council has made several changes recently while ignoring the fact that when Mr. Kilough became President he made several changes, while demoting others. He brought in Meeker, Franks, Salyer, Register and Johnson to name a few. And Johnson replaced Seelig as secretary. Not to mention trying to even move the office from Milford to Texas with closed door meetings and visits to Texas, and a short notice to the GCE and with false information. Then when the elders began to ask questions about the move some were even threaten with their jobs from the Administration making it necesary for an alternate forum so they could speak freely without fear of abuse from their employers, (Kilough, Franks).
When the move was placed back on the ballot, Kilough and others on the previous council ignored it and still went ahead and bought the land, hoping this would make a difference in the outcome of the vote. The elders, members of United, were on to their tricks and voted it down. They knew it was a waste of money when the office in Milford was paid for and could be expanded and worked with.
Now they are angry, and instead of supporting the current council are digging in their heels and spreading lies and stirring people up, like the Waddles.
The big mistake that this current council is making is not having the backbone to fire these divisive men as would have happened in other organizations.
As an onlooker with many friends in United I feel very sorry for them and would not be surprised if many get fed up with it and leave. After all it is not an organization that will get you into God’s kingdom as many of you already know.
The six "radicals" named above seem to run all over the ideological road, when it comes to UCG.
Melvin Rhodes is on the hard-right side of the road -- practically calling in a recent Good News article for a religious litmus test for U.S. immigrants.
But Aaron Dean seems to be on the other side of the road. After all, he caused a stir for speaking to another Sabbath-keeping group a year or two ago.
Robin Webber's WNP articles seem to put him on the "grace" side of the road as well.
But I've never had any of these men as my pastor -- so I could be wrong.
Just to clarify, the source of the information on UCG is NOT from the "radical" faction. Radical? What a stupid term to describe some very moderate people.
Jared Olar has contributed to AW for years - including on the pre-blog website. He's a convert to Catholicism, and - credit where it's due - very well read on wider church history. He's as entitled to his views as anyone else here... though I certainly don't share much common ground with his perspective.
Totally unrelated, so please forgive. Looks like God blessed Oral Roberts more than HWA because he lived 5 years longer.
Anonymous said...
Totally unrelated, so please forgive. Looks like God blessed Oral Roberts more than HWA because he lived 5 years longer.
Was Oral in his tower when God called him home?
Anonymous, HWA lived to go into his 94th year.
Oral only made it to 91.
The regional pastors in UCG seem to have long removed themselves from their job to be servants to the sheep, instead they are now the blind servants of Jim Franks.
You've got to give it to fellows like Oral Roberts and Billy Graham - they really had longevity in terms of their ministries. And for the most part where able to avoid the controversies, hypocrisies and scandals so common to other Christian evangelists (HWA and the WCG included).
Oral was married to the same woman for 66 years - imagine that!
There was an old joke circulating many years ago that Billy and Oral used to golf together for some relaxation, but that Billy finally ended it in exasperation because it seems Oral kept asking God to heal up the holes on the course just as Billy's ball was about to enter into them! And, of course, God dutifully obeyed!
I think one of Oral’s more embarrassing moments was when he claimed, I’m thinking sometime back in the ‘80’s, that God told him he would be killed if his followers didn’t contribute enough money to some particular fund! This was a publicity stunt that even HWA didn’t have the chutzpah to try!
And by the way, Anonymous 8:38, HWA died at the age of 93 - Oral at 91. So I really don't understand what you meant in your above comment.
Could you enlighten us?
"After all it is not an organization that will get you into God’s kingdom as many of you already know."
And what's your personal poisonous CoG that's going to get you into the Kingdom, Anon?
Gavin said...
>>He's as entitled to his views as anyone else here... though I certainly don't share much common ground with his perspective.<<
How come that I am not entitled to my views as much as anyone else here? Why the majority of my posts are never published, even when they conform and and comply with your rules or guidelines?
Have you never read Paul's charge to Timothy thus: "Observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality." That is, don't be a respecter of persons!
After all that is said and done here, we will all have to stand before the judgment seat of Christ, and that will be the true test of how we treated our neighbour, whom we are to love as ourselves.
Richard, I shall remain at Mizpah until desolation overspreads the land.
Oral died at age 91. Herb died in '86.
91 - 86 = 5.
Ergo, with a bit of mental fuzziness, Herb lived 5 years longer than Oral.
Gavin Said,
"Just to clarify, the source of the information on UCG is NOT from the "radical" faction. Radical? What a stupid term to describe some very moderate people."
Same old, same old. The nasty folks release the info...then blame it on the other side. As Gavin says here...the men named are actually the moderate guys, not the radical ones. So I wonder what Anonymous thinks now since it is not one of the "radicals" (really moderate) who leaked the info.
This reminds me of one of my personal experiences. Our then pastor...who went with one of the split offs from UCG...was "leaking" info under the guise of informing people. When our RP realized that info was being leaked...he blamed it on one man on the COE. The RP was all behind the pastor, so he wanted to put the blame elsewhere, and he disliked some on the COE...so that is who he told people was leaking info, when in reality it was his buddy who was standing in front of our congregation leaking the info. When we told the RP that...he blew us off...we were of course peons so we couldn't know anything.
There is a group of men in the administration and also most of the RP's who spin and twist like you would not believe. As a matter of fact, we have caught several of them in outright lies. When we have mentioned this to other ministers of the same ilk, they dismissed it saying that the man was "just exaggerating". I once replied, no, he was not telling the truth. But again was blown off and the man still maintains his RP position, even though it is KNOWN that he lies.
So the battle in UCG continues...and UCG member has things exactly reversed. He needs to wake up!!
"Anonymous, HWA lived to go into his 94th year. Oral only made it to 91."
Right. He died in 86, not 86 years old.
Just to clarify...The "new council" (minus 2, maybe three) in UCG wants to spend more money on media, which takes away from shepherding the sheep by bringing more pastors to the flock. They are so concerned about the tv program and how other programs may be doing better that they would rather put more money into that than put it into taking better care of the flock. THAT is only ONE of the things Franks and Salyer are against. Not to mention Thompson, Horchak and Kilough. So saying that the Regional pastors are blind servants of Franks is ridiculous! You really don't know what's going on! Read the council reports!
Let us translate. When the COE claims that they want to commit funds for shepherding the flock. The proper understanding would translate; we want funds for salaries,benefits, and pensions.
I believe that is the reason UCG is stalling on TV media.
Thu Dec 17, 05:08:00 AM NZDT
Anonymous said...
"Let us translate. When the COE claims that they want to commit funds for shepherding the flock. The proper understanding would translate; we want funds for salaries,benefits, and pensions.
I believe that is the reason UCG is stalling on TV media."
ABSOLUTELY!!!! It has nothing to d with taking better care of ANY church member. Why the average UCG pastor has a fraction of the number of church members that most mainstream church pastors would have. And since I know a mainstream pastor or two (actually more) personally...I know they do a whole lot more visiting the sick, widows, elderly, etc than a lot of UCG pastors. As a matter of fact, the local UCG pastor in one area...having been there for 6+ years, has yet to visit several of the widows in his area. Even when they have been hospitalized, he didn't have time to visit. These guys have all the tme in the world to visit and take care of "their flocks" but they are just to lazy to do it.
Mainstream pastors have a visiting schedule and all such people...get visited regularly...and they also have to report back to their boards that they have been doing their job. UCG pastors lack having to be accountable to ANYONE!!!
Tom Mahon said:
"How come that I am not entitled to my views as much as anyone else here? Why the majority of my posts are never published. . . ?"
Tom, at the risk of beating a dead horse, let me repeat what I said on the earlier post "Like sands through the hourglass":
From time to time we may need to remind ourselves that we are writers submitting our work to an editor for publication. Like any other editor, Gavin is not obligated to publish anything we send in.
I never understood, or agreed with, the heavy-handed censorship of Tom Mahon. Tom is what he is. I don't think, or at least I would like to believe, that Tom is in any way deceitful (no more than every other Christian who has to deceive themselves on a daily basis) or hateful...he's just a True Believer who is going by what the Bible states.
I have more respect for Tom, an extreme fundamentalist, than the "enlightened believers" who cherry pick their way through the Bible.
This is Gavin's blog. Gavin can do what he wants. I understand this, and have no problem with it. I don't think I have ever complained about Gavin censoring my posts (which is a rare occurrence and that surprises me) because I know that it's his choice and the reason behind it is irrelevant- Gavin owes no one an explanation.
But I would like to see a more even-handed censorship policy. If I, a rabid atheist, can post my views, then I think Tom, a rabid Armstrongite, should be allowed to air his views too.
I'm actually hoping Tom can intervene for me at the edge of the Lake of Fire, just when a burly angel (who, in WCG fashion, will be Anglo Saxon in appearance) is about to cast me in. But I know Tom. He won't. And I don't hold it against him. Tom is Tom. Selah.
The Apostate Paul
'There is an awful lot of unhappiness and discontent swirling beneath the surface - both among the membership as well as the ministry'
===
It used tobe rumoured in wcg that the ministry alone were the real 'members'. This is unbiblical - for all of us are 'members' of the Body. Peter calls the brethren God's heritage - the kleros, clergy (I Peter 5:3).
The better designation is shepherd and flock (that is, if the leadership are indeed true shepherds)
"And what's your personal poisonous CoG that's going to get you into the Kingdom, Anon?"
None! Nothing that men organize, on this earth, will get me into God's kingdom. In fact, if allowed, most often the organized CoG, are stumbling blocks because of being filled with lies, power seeking, self-seeking and competition. Opposite of what God stands for and is about.
My hope is in God and Him alone!
Many remind me of what is going on in Washingtom today.
Paul, with regard to your comments about Tom and the Lake of Fire: the only folks to have reason to fear God (or the Lake of Fire) are those who are genuinely evil, the incorrigibly wicked.
We don't have anyone like that posting on this board. Your Salvation is not determined by your opinions, it is based on your heart.
If your heart is right, and yours is, (I know this because you hate injustice and deception) you will eventually come to Jesus Christ, maybe not now, but sometime in the future. It is inevitable.
larry said: "Paul, with regard to your comments about Tom and the Lake of Fire: the only folks to have reason to fear God (or the Lake of Fire) are those who are genuinely evil, the incorrigibly wicked.
We don't have anyone like that posting on this board. Your Salvation is not determined by your opinions, it is based on your heart."
...
I deny the holy spirit. I'm not a sinner. Some would say that makes me incorrigibly wicked. I always struggled with Herbert's notion of original sin. I realize now it was just plain nonsense.
anonseven21
Sorry anonseven21, you are a sinner. But, stubbornness and ignorance do not qualify you as "incorrigibly wicked".
Genuinely evil people deliberately inflict pain and suffering upon the innocent, and/or derive pleasure or satisfaction from seeing or causing the misery of same.
I sincerely doubt that anyone who posts on this board falls into this category.
anonseven21 said:
“I deny the holy spirit. I'm not a sinner. Some would say that makes me incorrigibly wicked. I always struggled with Herbert's notion of original sin. I realize now it was just plain nonsense.”
I agree that the original sin idea is questionable. The human problem is better defined as ‘hardcore selfishness’ and it affects everyone in varying degrees.
Bert
Larry blasphemously said, “the only folks to have reason to fear God (or the Lake of Fire) is those who are genuinely evil, the incorrigibly wicked.”
MY COMMENT – This statement is in direct conflict with HWA and the WCG teachings which preached Lake of Fire eternal damnation are those individuals who were once converted, baptized and then have fallen away. In other words, these are the people who reject HWA as the Apostle of God. These individuals are condemned to Lake of Fire eternal damnation.
Additionally, as preached in F.K.’s January, 1969 Washington, D.C. WCG sermon: “if you die in the hands of doctors, you will go to the lake of fire”.
My work in the Lake of Fire Church of God is to minister to those of us who are condemned. Please send multiple tithes, offerings and yes, please don’t forget the all important Building Fund to grow this important aspect of God’s work.
May Larry join Tom Mahon in Mizpah, repenting of his blasphemous statements and draping himself with humility in ash and sackcloth, until the desolation comes?
Well, LoFCoG, glad that I could clear that up for you! Many people are burdened by misconceptions, some of them long-held.
Okay, now I'm confused. Lake of Fire Church of God said that HWA and the WCG taught that the ones bound for "Lake of Fire eternal damnation are those individuals who were once converted, baptized and then have fallen away."
But, but. . . Kelly Barfield was all worried that, when I declined to return to Ambassador College after my freshman year, I had used up my last chance and was bound for the Lake of Fire--even though I was neither converted nor baptized. Are you implying, LoFCoG, that Mr. Barfield had no reason to worry on my behalf?
Or was he right? Should I worry along with him?
I was sorta looking forward to the same condition after death that I enjoyed before birth. It would vex me no end to think I'm due to be awakened from nice quiet oblivion by an all-merciful god just so that I can wail and gnash my teeth during the few moments of searing heat required to return me to that oblivion.
LoFCoG,
I must have missed that sermon in 1969, but I’m glad I did. You may want lighten up on your judgment just a tad, since Jesus warned us to not to take on what is a god size job.
(Mat 7:1-2 KJV) Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
In fact I would advise resigning that position and get a decent job like sweeping floors.
Bert
Well, Retired Prof, I am afraid that "oblivion" is just going to have to wait. Instead, you are going to have to endure an eternity of fulfillment, joy, liberty, and happiness....whether you like it or not.
It could be difficult.
Larry... "Sorry anonseven21, you are a sinner. But, stubbornness and ignorance do not qualify you as "incorrigibly wicked". "
I cannot agree. I'm not a sinner. Your proclamations don't make me one, neither do the proclamations of sheep herders from many years ago.
It is a nice place to be, no longer living a life of sin, I suggest you try it sometime.
anonSeven21
"Instead, you are going to have to endure an eternity of fulfillment, joy, liberty, and happiness....whether you like it or not."
Translation: LOVE OUR JEBUS OR HE'LL KILL YOU.
Hell sounds like a much more hip and happening place, IMO. At least one can be guaranteed the interesting people will be there!
anonseven21 said:
I'm not a sinner. Your proclamations don't make me one, neither do the proclamations of sheep herders from many years ago.
What is your perception of a sinner when you say you are not a sinner? Does this mean you are a perfect human being without any mistakes and everything you do makes a positive contribution in your human existence? You have never made a wrong move, never broken any laws, never did anything that caused harm, never lost your temper, have perfect control in your life, nothing you do causes illness hurt or pain, and if it wasn’t for all the things other people do you would live forever?
How have you managed to accomplish such a life? What is the secret for accomplishing such a life?
Bert
Retired Prof said:
“I was sorta looking forward to the same condition after death that I enjoyed before birth.”
This is an interesting statement. First how could a person enjoy something before birth? Second does a person enjoy something after death? Third does time and space allow for anything historical to be undone?
Bert
This thread has gone off course. Am I ever going to get a list of "the unethical practices of the radicals"?
Hell sounds like a much more hip and happening place, IMO. At least one can be guaranteed the interesting people will be there!
Or one could just go with being born right and ok the first time and not bother with all the guilt and threats...
'Hell sounds like a much more hip and happening place, IMO. At least one can be guaranteed the interesting people will be there!'
====
Sounds like the false concept of 'hell' is still buried deep in our contributors.
Those cast into ge'henna are dead bodies, carcases - not the living. See Daniel 7:11.
Bert wrote:
"How have you managed to accomplish such a life? What is the secret for accomplishing such a life?"
The secret to such a perfect life is simple, Bert: an extremely poor memory!!
Question for Anonymous
What are “the unethical practices of the radicals"?
What determines the radicals? I am familiar with the “radical reformation” which includes the Anabaptists, spiritualists, and evangelical rationalist, but this doesn’t seem to fit UCG. Are the radicals the ones that wanted to go back to what they perceive to be the original WCG mentality or are they the ones who recognize that the world has changed and there needs to be some adjusting to those changes?
I think ethics in WCG was a matter of perception depending on the objective. If my memory serves me right it was unethical to do anything that contradicted the objective of those who were one step above you in the authority ladder.
Bert
"This thread has gone off course. Am I ever going to get a list of "the unethical practices of the radicals"?"
I AGREE
"Sounds like the false concept of 'hell' is still buried deep in our contributors."
I was the anon making the comment.
I was being facetious towards Larry's remarks about "hell". I do not believe in that false concept of "hell". I have never believed in that false concept of "hell". Further, I WILL NEVER believe in that false concept of "hell".
I am aligned with the verses you have quoted.
Anonymous asked:
"First how could a person enjoy something before birth? Second does a person enjoy something after death? Third does time and space allow for anything historical to be undone?"
I don't know the answers to the second and third (and I'm not sure how the third even applies), but the first question I can do.
I admire the attitude of a friend of mine who says the key to happiness is "Lower your standards." In that frame, enjoyment is any contrast to misery. So although it's true that I can't remember anything resembling ecstasy before birth, I also don't recall ever having to clear the snow off my driveway, or undergo a root canal, or sit through a sermon by Gerald Waterhouse. Oblivion might not offer much, but it's a hell of an improvement over stuff like that.
And Larry, the impression I got from Waterhouse was that the "eternity of fulfillment, joy, liberty, and happiness" in the Kingdom of Heaven would involve listening to Waterhouse. A lot.
Relief from blizzards and dental procedures would not compensate. Not even close.
bert: "What is your perception of a sinner when you say you are not a sinner? Does this mean you are a perfect human being without any mistakes and everything you do makes a positive contribution in your human existence? You have never made a wrong move, never broken any laws, never did anything that caused harm, never lost your temper, have perfect control in your life, nothing you do causes illness hurt or pain, and if it wasn’t for all the things other people do you would live forever?
How have you managed to accomplish such a life? What is the secret for accomplishing such a life?"
I break laws from time to time. Laws I respect and recognize. Good stuff happens, bad stuff happens.
Sin? Nope. Archaic concept pushed on us by a tribe of illiterate sheep herders from many centuries ago trying to explain things they were not sufficiently educated enough to explain.
I'm active in making my actions be as positive as I can to my family and friends. In this life, in the here and now. I'll gladly say it again, I deny the holy spirit.
Retired Prof: "And Larry, the impression I got from Waterhouse was that the "eternity of fulfillment, joy, liberty, and happiness" in the Kingdom of Heaven would involve listening to Waterhouse."
Wow, that would be agony. I remember paying close attention to Waterhouse the last feast I attended where by coincidence I had the misfortune to have him for multiple services. He certainly had a vivid imagination to go with his hyperactive ego.
The church should hang it's head in shame for promoting and sending him around the world preaching absolute and utter nonsense.
anonseven21
Leonardo: "The secret to such a perfect life is simple, Bert: an extremely poor memory!!"
My life is complete. I've managed to elicit a short response from Leonardo!
Wow!
anonseven21
"I remember paying close attention to Waterhouse the last feast I attended where by coincidence I had the misfortune to have him for multiple services."
You wouldn't have wanted to be at my home Feast location the year we had Waterhouse AND Spanky, Anon; I can even remember the evangelical protester busting in the doors, screaming at Gerald that "You're going to Hell!"
Waterhouse didn't even bat an eye. He just continued rambling, interspersing it with "And he says I'm going to hell. Brethren if you'll turn with me to..." (I forget the verse. Think he was waxing ineloquent about the Kingdomal governance hierarchy again, IIRC.)
"Sin" is a religious concept, Bert, and has nothing to do with real life. The law of sin and death in the Bible is baloney, one has nothing whatsoever to do with the other.
People just need to grow up and face the fact that death is the consequence of mortality, not sin or any other ridiculous religious taboo.
Post a Comment