I apologize to you for going off topic in my comments regarding Tkach in the last post. When I read your excellent year end blog post summarizing the lunacy in COG land in 2009, everything fit the normal three ring circus that we’ve come to expect from Herbert Armstrong’s legacy - except Tkach’s statement.
The only other rebuttal I would make to clueless Larry is that any other financial fraud of comparable size which Tkach perpetrated would have been addressed by a Victim’s Trust fund. I lost a chunk of my retirement in the WorldCom stock fraud which is why I am sensitive to Dennis’ situation. WorldCom bought my company with its bogus stock valuation. The company’s portion of my 401K contributions was made in stock as per company policy. The government found WorldCom to be a criminal organization and established a Victim’s Trust in which assets were retrieved and distributed. For example, WorldCom’s CFO’s $20 Million ocean front Boca Raton mansion was seized as part of the criminal plea bargain. I did receive payments from the Victim’s Trust – pennies on the dollar though it may be.
My understanding is that similar Victim’s trusts were established for Enron employees and has been established for Bernie Madoff’s victims as well.
By the way, Dennis did not ask me to raise the retirement. I did it on my own because I read between the lines on some of Dennis’s writings. Larry notwithstanding, I hate financial fraud and from my vantage point sitting on the sidelines viewing the remains of my former Church organization from 40 years ago is a HUGE financial fraud.
And, the dumb sheep were too submissive and passive to stand-up for the Church and its assets. They collectively demonstrated the same “see no evil” attitude Larry displayed earlier – “Well, if God wants to shrink the Church by changing all its’ core doctrines and offering no financial accountability whatsoever, then that is what God wants”.
The appropriate caption for the picture of Tkach on your post should be – “It was like stealing candy from a baby”.
Richard
PS – I hope you understand that your work here on AW is not over – not by a long shot. I know it takes a bunch of your time to operate, but I suggest continue following this three ring circus at least through 2013 since 2012 is the next “1975 in Prophecy”.
Richard, I can certainly understand your angst after being victimized by Ebbers, Sullivan & Co. You would like to put the current leadership of the GCI in the same category as those guys and Lay and Madoff. You can't do it though. Those guys all did things that were ILLEGAL.
You attribute devious and ulterior motives to Tkach and Feazell, but you do not know their motives. And, it is the height of arrogance to judge someone's motives without evidence. That IS God's prerogative.
And by the way, I am not clueless, but you may be.
The whole retirement issue to me is very perplexing. It seems normal to be concerned about what to do in a latter time when one cannot do as they did. My dad retired from Kodak almost 30 years ago and he has managed to outlive and make them stand by their word to him with retirement. That is my family paradigm growning up.
Ron Kelly promised the ministry that "we will take care of you." Boy...if only we understood what that meant.
I started putting some of my tithe into a plan the church offered for us to put monies into. Not tithe money of course, but that was the only money I had. Then they canceled it. I tried to save some of the 2nd tithe that was taken from our pay and kept at HQ and sent to us for holidays and that stopped. You could not win. They simply were not going to commit to anyone about retirement. And they never did.
I do believe the pastor who spent just a very short time in WCG comparatively pastoring my churches after I left, did get a retirement which, if true, blows my mind. We are the same age.
I can never physically retire. I don't require much in this life to live. I have a small one bedroom apt. A 12 year old car. A career that allows me to still be a caretaker and healer of sorts but after that what? I don't know if life is working out as it is supposed to or I am really in trouble and don't know it. I have no insurance so just hope for the best and tell myself, "sometimes in life there is nothing left to do but have a good laugh."
Alas...in reality, I find very little about my youthful naive hopes in the Bible, WCG and the idea that I was supposed to be a minister all that funny .....
People tell me "God's not done with you Dennis..." She better hurry....
PS One misplaced comment from Tom Mahon about this topic and my being a hireling and I sware I will find a way to kick his Mizpah clear back to Shechem...
"And, the dumb sheep were too submissive and passive to stand-up for the Church and its assets."
Again, I find myself agreeing with Richard! (Does this mean I shall soon have to start tithing to the Lake of Fire Church of God?) ;-)
If I had been an independent adult at the time of the changes, you'd better believe I would have screamed bloody murder before I let those pagan bastards take over the only church I had ever known.
Fortunately I was young, and voiceless, and ended up finding my way to freedom from all religion instead.
"The local WCG in Fairfield, CA has links to ECFA on their Facebook and Twitter pages."
Anonymous, I just checked the Twitter page for WCG Fairfield, and can't find any reference to ECFA, nor on their blog page. Can you provide the appropriate links, and tell me what WCG Fairfield has to say, about GCI's refusal to have itself accredited by ECFA?
PS. This made me go back read the original correspondence I had with Bernie Schnippert, about being included in retirement.
First he blamed me for signing away Social Security as a decision I made not them. In reality, I was handed a paper at 18 years old , by Paul Royer and told to sign it. I only knew at the time it meant the church did not have to pay SS on any money they paid me for working as a student. That's the last I ever saw of that paper. But Bernie blamed me for signing it.
Secondly he blamed everyone but Joe and themselves for no retirement. So not their fault. He went on to assure me that retirement would be in place when the properties sold (big lie there) and it would be for those who met "certain criteria" Guess what? Right.....can't meet em. Have to be member in good standing, not a member of another group and have a birthmark in the shape of a cross on your left ass cheek to qualify. Ok, not that one, but close.
Every month I promise myself it is time to just leave it all go and move on. My experience is that the WCGracie Reconciling Dept spends all it's time reconciling with all the wrong people and always will. They live in the land of smoke and mirrors.
It's a new year. Perhaps I have said all I need to say to process this whole ridiculous experience with WCG and religion. This past summer I reached what for me was the most dangerous low in my life. I pulled out of it because there was not much more choice. Sink or swim. I'll swim.
I"m going to believe that somehow, something is going to work out for the good in all this and that while I personally feel like a classic underachiever, life can still have purpose and whatever meaning I assign it.
I'll think about what the balance is between "helping" others with my views and helping myself recover because frankly it seems to be taking too too long. It's just a story. My story but a story none the less and it could have taken a thousand other twists and turns and been another story.
Anonymous 7:38, I notice WCGFairfield is following the ECFA Twitter Feed.
Can you tell me what your congregation's stance on the denomination's lack of accountability under the ECFA actually is? You can also email me at purplehymnal@gmail.com if you are not comfortable commenting publicly on AW.
and finally. The issue is not retirement for me. Nothing is going to come of that and I know it.
It's all the losses that I have accumlated in life either inflicted in ways over which I had no control, or having to face some issues over which I had total control or at least some.
It is abnormal to make a man a minister. It makes a man into two men. The outside one that is compliant to hold on to the position and the guy inside who disagrees and outgrows the childish explanations and views of his youth and doesn't know what to do or think about this anymore. I just kept dropping topics from sermons over the years that I no longer had confidence in. Then I found there were none to give eventually. I think explaining the origin of the virgin birth midrash of Matthew at the Feast was about the last straw for WCG. I do rmember Dave Albert taking me to dinner after that sermon to learn more so that's the kind of friendship we had.
A few weeks later I was informed I knew much about Jesus but did not know Jesus, which I could not argue with since it was the new and improved Jesus that I did not know. No argument there. It was a great finale of an exit interview
Also a congregation fully expects a minister to be what they have absolutely no intention of being anything but themselves and expect ongoing forgiveness . However, The minister gets crucified and becomes the object of scorn not forgiveness or compassion. I know of ministers on good pensions who totally managed to keep that real self under wraps long enough to not tip over their boat. It's true of all denominations.
Being authentic has always been important to me for some crazy reason. You pay a big price for that dumbass view. It's why my humor devoped in the passive aggressive mode and sarcasm, which is anger turned sideways and came to the surface. It's like a comedian who is really funny because he is telling the truth and saying outloud what others are only thinking.
And I have no idea why I am writing this...thanks for listening.... I have to let it go. I have to ....I have to.
I promie if I ever know a man, namely me, whether in the spirit or not who went into the third heaven and saw and heard lots of stuff you not supposed to know about... etc...I promise to write all about it....
Corky, I don't think that Larry is saying that it's ok to rob people. He has stated that he involves himself in efforts to take issue with those who have hurt others and help the down-trodden. But it's easy to see why he doesn't apply the same criteria to those in the leadership of his church for whom criticism is called for, and have hurt many people.
Maybe, one day, he will say (about his church's leadership), something other than, "It's not my place to criticize- God is who they account to.", and perhaps on that day, he will have more sympathy for and be more inclined to actually be kind towards those who have been harmed by his church's leadership - just as he is willing to be now, toward unscrupulous people who do harm to others.
There is a way to legally rob people and all religions, at least in the USA, know it. They have a Constitutional right to screw the members of whatever church at hand. The Founders set it up that way when they separated church and state. That is why no court can adjudicate the complaints of our having been robbed and lied to by our ministry.
Mel. I have ZERO sympathy for unscrupulous people who rob innocents, no matter who they are. But, intention matters.
I am sure (and you probably are too) that Joe Tkach, Jr. did not intend to hurt anyone when he and others decided to take the Church down its current path. They were probably surprised (I certainly was!) by the resistance to changes that were clearly in order. I suspect he was warned; but nevertheless, he was properly determined, and went forward. The fact that some, or many, refused to come along is not his fault, and he is not responsible for the consequences. If you think that the decisions for change should have been democratized, just look where that has gotten the UCG.
As for all the tithes, donations, and offerings that have been “wasted”, that is just bunk. Nothing has been wasted or stolen. As I said, intention matters. God is perfectly capable and willing to replace any funds and bestow any blessings on anyone and everyone who gives or gave with the proper attitude. Does that mean that He will? Yes. But, not necessarily in the manner that we, as humans may desire, expect, or be able to quantify. You can take that to the bank.
Anonymous 7:38, I notice WCGFairfield is following the ECFA Twitter Feed.
Looks like WCGFairfield also follows the Charity Commission UK on Twitter, too. That's the UK charity authority that WCGUK must register with. Impressive.
"Looks like WCGFairfield also follows the Charity Commission UK on Twitter, too. That's the UK charity authority that WCGUK must register with. Impressive."
Check out their website though --- a lot of "World News & Prophecy" --- are we sure WCG Fairfield is one of Gracie's harlot daughters? Because their theology sounds way too close to "home".
Larry wrote: "I am sure that...Joe Tkach Jr. did not intend to hurt anyone when he and others decided to take the Church down its current path."
Larry, you really are living in a world of smoke and mirrors.
I was working out in Pasadena when all these changes were coming down (some of which I agreed with, some I didn't), and I can tell you that what impacted me more than the actual changes themselves was the very noticeable spirit of ARROGANCE and an "I don't care who is hurt by these changes" attitude most of these guys had, especially Joe Jr. and Mike Feazell. It was quite pronounced.
I also talked with folks who were personally involved in meetings with Joe Jr., Feazell, etc., and this attitude was even more blatant there when they were out of the public spotlight.
I actually liked Joe Jr. on a personal level, but his leadership of the WCG and now GCI is certainly less than stellar - though financially profitable for him and his cronies, no doubt.
My observation is that the vast majority of religious leaders - in spite of all the lip service they pay to "servant leadership" - actually have precious little genuine concern for the folks they lead.
In many ways HWA, for instance, very much despised the common church member - and didn't conceal the fact, seeing most of them as uneducated, uncultured backwoods hicks who's only real value was to fund his hair-brained schemes of "doing the Work of God."
Larry, you can resort to humor all you want - qouting Darth Vader only being your latest in a long line of such antics - but your constant evasions in answering SERIOUS questions put to you is quite obvious.
Not exactly what we would expect from a self-professed professional scientist with an education from a "world class" university.
23 comments:
Now, let's guess the occupation of the person in the picture:
Convict
Drug runner
Petty thief
Trash Collector
Junkyard Foreman
Mafia hit man
God'a Apostle
Gavin,
I apologize to you for going off topic in my comments regarding Tkach in the last post. When I read your excellent year end blog post summarizing the lunacy in COG land in 2009, everything fit the normal three ring circus that we’ve come to expect from Herbert Armstrong’s legacy - except Tkach’s statement.
The only other rebuttal I would make to clueless Larry is that any other financial fraud of comparable size which Tkach perpetrated would have been addressed by a Victim’s Trust fund. I lost a chunk of my retirement in the WorldCom stock fraud which is why I am sensitive to Dennis’ situation. WorldCom bought my company with its bogus stock valuation. The company’s portion of my 401K contributions was made in stock as per company policy. The government found WorldCom to be a criminal organization and established a Victim’s Trust in which assets were retrieved and distributed. For example, WorldCom’s CFO’s $20 Million ocean front Boca Raton mansion was seized as part of the criminal plea bargain. I did receive payments from the Victim’s Trust – pennies on the dollar though it may be.
My understanding is that similar Victim’s trusts were established for Enron employees and has been established for Bernie Madoff’s victims as well.
By the way, Dennis did not ask me to raise the retirement. I did it on my own because I read between the lines on some of Dennis’s writings. Larry notwithstanding, I hate financial fraud and from my vantage point sitting on the sidelines viewing the remains of my former Church organization from 40 years ago is a HUGE financial fraud.
And, the dumb sheep were too submissive and passive to stand-up for the Church and its assets. They collectively demonstrated the same “see no evil” attitude Larry displayed earlier – “Well, if God wants to shrink the Church by changing all its’ core doctrines and offering no financial accountability whatsoever, then that is what God wants”.
The appropriate caption for the picture of Tkach on your post should be – “It was like stealing candy from a baby”.
Richard
PS – I hope you understand that your work here on AW is not over – not by a long shot. I know it takes a bunch of your time to operate, but I suggest continue following this three ring circus at least through 2013 since 2012 is the next “1975 in Prophecy”.
Not all WCG/GCI members are unaware of this discrepancy. The local WCG in Fairfield, CA has links to ECFA on their Facebook and Twitter pages.
Richard, I can certainly understand your angst after being victimized by Ebbers, Sullivan & Co. You would like to put the current leadership of the GCI in the same category as those guys and Lay and Madoff. You can't do it though. Those guys all did things that were ILLEGAL.
You attribute devious and ulterior motives to Tkach and Feazell, but you do not know their motives. And, it is the height of arrogance to judge someone's motives without evidence. That IS God's prerogative.
And by the way, I am not clueless, but you may be.
The whole retirement issue to me is very perplexing. It seems normal to be concerned about what to do in a latter time when one cannot do as they did. My dad retired from Kodak almost 30 years ago and he has managed to outlive and make them stand by their word to him with retirement. That is my family paradigm growning up.
Ron Kelly promised the ministry that "we will take care of you." Boy...if only we understood what that meant.
I started putting some of my tithe into a plan the church offered for us to put monies into. Not tithe money of course, but that was the only money I had. Then they canceled it. I tried to save some of the 2nd tithe that was taken from our pay and kept at HQ and sent to us for holidays and that stopped. You could not win. They simply were not going to commit to anyone about retirement. And they never did.
I do believe the pastor who spent just a very short time in WCG comparatively pastoring my churches after I left, did get a retirement which, if true, blows my mind. We are the same age.
I can never physically retire. I don't require much in this life to live. I have a small one bedroom apt. A 12 year old car. A career that allows me to still be a caretaker and healer of sorts but after that what? I don't know if life is working out as it is supposed to or I am really in trouble and don't know it. I have no insurance so just hope for the best and tell myself, "sometimes in life there is nothing left to do but have a good laugh."
Alas...in reality, I find very little about my youthful naive hopes in the Bible, WCG and the idea that I was supposed to be a minister all that funny .....
People tell me "God's not done with you Dennis..." She better hurry....
PS One misplaced comment from Tom Mahon about this topic and my being a hireling and I sware I will find a way to kick his Mizpah clear back to Shechem...
"And, the dumb sheep were too submissive and passive to stand-up for the Church and its assets."
Again, I find myself agreeing with Richard! (Does this mean I shall soon have to start tithing to the Lake of Fire Church of God?) ;-)
If I had been an independent adult at the time of the changes, you'd better believe I would have screamed bloody murder before I let those pagan bastards take over the only church I had ever known.
Fortunately I was young, and voiceless, and ended up finding my way to freedom from all religion instead.
"The local WCG in Fairfield, CA has links to ECFA on their Facebook and Twitter pages."
Thanks for the tip, Anonymous, this information will be very useful to us, very soon.
"The local WCG in Fairfield, CA has links to ECFA on their Facebook and Twitter pages."
Anonymous, I just checked the Twitter page for WCG Fairfield, and can't find any reference to ECFA, nor on their blog page. Can you provide the appropriate links, and tell me what WCG Fairfield has to say, about GCI's refusal to have itself accredited by ECFA?
Thanks for your input.
PS. This made me go back read the original correspondence I had with Bernie Schnippert, about being included in retirement.
First he blamed me for signing away Social Security as a decision I made not them. In reality, I was handed a paper at 18 years old , by Paul Royer and told to sign it. I only knew at the time it meant the church did not have to pay SS on any money they paid me for working as a student. That's the last I ever saw of that paper. But Bernie blamed me for signing it.
Secondly he blamed everyone but Joe and themselves for no retirement. So not their fault. He went on to assure me that retirement would be in place when the properties sold (big lie there) and it would be for those who met "certain criteria" Guess what? Right.....can't meet em. Have to be member in good standing, not a member of another group and have a birthmark in the shape of a cross on your left ass cheek to qualify. Ok, not that one, but close.
Every month I promise myself it is time to just leave it all go and move on. My experience is that the WCGracie Reconciling Dept spends all it's time reconciling with all the wrong people and always will. They live in the land of smoke and mirrors.
It's a new year. Perhaps I have said all I need to say to process this whole ridiculous experience with WCG and religion. This past summer I reached what for me was the most dangerous low in my life. I pulled out of it because there was not much more choice. Sink or swim. I'll swim.
I"m going to believe that somehow, something is going to work out for the good in all this and that while I personally feel like a classic underachiever, life can still have purpose and whatever meaning I assign it.
I'll think about what the balance is between "helping" others with my views and helping myself recover because frankly it seems to be taking too too long. It's just a story. My story but a story none the less and it could have taken a thousand other twists and turns and been another story.
Anonymous 7:38, I notice WCGFairfield is following the ECFA Twitter Feed.
Can you tell me what your congregation's stance on the denomination's lack of accountability under the ECFA actually is? You can also email me at purplehymnal@gmail.com if you are not comfortable commenting publicly on AW.
and finally. The issue is not retirement for me. Nothing is going to come of that and I know it.
It's all the losses that I have accumlated in life either inflicted in ways over which I had no control, or having to face some issues over which I had total control or at least some.
It is abnormal to make a man a minister. It makes a man into two men. The outside one that is compliant to hold on to the position and the guy inside who disagrees and outgrows the childish explanations and views of his youth and doesn't know what to do or think about this anymore. I just kept dropping topics from sermons over the years that I no longer had confidence in. Then I found there were none to give eventually. I think explaining the origin of the virgin birth midrash of Matthew at the Feast was about the last straw for WCG. I do rmember Dave Albert taking me to dinner after that sermon to learn more so that's the kind of friendship we had.
A few weeks later I was informed I knew much about Jesus but did not know Jesus, which I could not argue with since it was the new and improved Jesus that I did not know. No argument there. It was a great finale of an exit interview
Also a congregation fully expects a minister to be what they have absolutely no intention of being anything but themselves and expect ongoing forgiveness . However, The minister gets crucified and becomes the object of scorn not forgiveness or compassion. I know of ministers on good pensions who totally managed to keep that real self under wraps long enough to not tip over their boat. It's true of all denominations.
Being authentic has always been important to me for some crazy reason. You pay a big price for that dumbass view. It's why my humor devoped in the passive aggressive mode and sarcasm, which is anger turned sideways and came to the surface. It's like a comedian who is really funny because he is telling the truth and saying outloud what others are only thinking.
And I have no idea why I am writing this...thanks for listening.... I have to let it go. I have to ....I have to.
I promie if I ever know a man, namely me, whether in the spirit or not who went into the third heaven and saw and heard lots of stuff you not supposed to know about... etc...I promise to write all about it....
Yes Larry, Those guys all did things that were ILLEGAL.
And it's hard to understand that there is a LEGAL way to rob people. That would be God's way, according to you.
Corky, I don't think that Larry is saying that it's ok to rob people.
He has stated that he involves himself in efforts to take issue with those who have hurt others and help the down-trodden.
But it's easy to see why he doesn't apply the same criteria to those in the leadership of his church for whom criticism is called for, and have hurt many people.
Maybe, one day, he will say (about his church's leadership), something other than, "It's not my place to criticize- God is who they account to.", and perhaps on that day, he will have more sympathy for and be more inclined to actually be kind towards those who have been harmed by his church's leadership - just as he is willing to be now, toward unscrupulous people who do harm to others.
Hey, Corky-
There is a way to legally rob people and all religions, at least in the USA, know it. They have a Constitutional right to screw the members of whatever church at hand.
The Founders set it up that way when they separated church and state. That is why no court can adjudicate the complaints of our having been robbed and lied to by our ministry.
Mel.
I have ZERO sympathy for unscrupulous people who rob innocents, no matter who they are. But, intention matters.
I am sure (and you probably are too) that Joe Tkach, Jr. did not intend to hurt anyone when he and others decided to take the Church down its current path. They were probably surprised (I certainly was!) by the resistance to changes that were clearly in order. I suspect he was warned; but nevertheless, he was properly determined, and went forward. The fact that some, or many, refused to come along is not his fault, and he is not responsible for the consequences. If you think that the decisions for change should have been democratized, just look where that has gotten the UCG.
As for all the tithes, donations, and offerings that have been “wasted”, that is just bunk. Nothing has been wasted or stolen. As I said, intention matters. God is perfectly capable and willing to replace any funds and bestow any blessings on anyone and everyone who gives or gave with the proper attitude. Does that mean that He will? Yes. But, not necessarily in the manner that we, as humans may desire, expect, or be able to quantify. You can take that to the bank.
Purple Hymnal said...
Anonymous 7:38, I notice WCGFairfield is following the ECFA Twitter Feed.
Looks like WCGFairfield also follows the Charity Commission UK on Twitter, too. That's the UK charity authority that WCGUK must register with. Impressive.
"Looks like WCGFairfield also follows the Charity Commission UK on Twitter, too. That's the UK charity authority that WCGUK must register with. Impressive."
Check out their website though --- a lot of "World News & Prophecy" --- are we sure WCG Fairfield is one of Gracie's harlot daughters? Because their theology sounds way too close to "home".
Larry wrote:
"I am sure that...Joe Tkach Jr. did not intend to hurt anyone when he and others decided to take the Church down its current path."
Larry, you really are living in a world of smoke and mirrors.
I was working out in Pasadena when all these changes were coming down (some of which I agreed with, some I didn't), and I can tell you that what impacted me more than the actual changes themselves was the very noticeable spirit of ARROGANCE and an "I don't care who is hurt by these changes" attitude most of these guys had, especially Joe Jr. and Mike Feazell. It was quite pronounced.
I also talked with folks who were personally involved in meetings with Joe Jr., Feazell, etc., and this attitude was even more blatant there when they were out of the public spotlight.
I actually liked Joe Jr. on a personal level, but his leadership of the WCG and now GCI is certainly less than stellar - though financially profitable for him and his cronies, no doubt.
My observation is that the vast majority of religious leaders - in spite of all the lip service they pay to "servant leadership" - actually have precious little genuine concern for the folks they lead.
In many ways HWA, for instance, very much despised the common church member - and didn't conceal the fact, seeing most of them as uneducated, uncultured backwoods hicks who's only real value was to fund his hair-brained schemes of "doing the Work of God."
Dennis,
Be true to thyself!
Richard
Clueless Larry said, "You can take that to the bank."
MY COMMENT - Yes, we can take that to the bank, but I am sure the check will be returned marked non-sufficient funds.
Richard
Clueless Larry said, "As for all the tithes, donations, and offerings that have been “wasted”, that is just bunk."
MY COMMENT - Baloney!
All the tithes, donations and offerings were stolen by the Tkach criminal organization. Why won't Tkach show us the money if it wasn't stolen?
Ebbers, Lay, Madoff and Tkach.
Richard
Richard, you are resorting to name-calling. I therefore, can resort to humor.
"I find your lack of faith...disturbing."
-Darth Vader
Larry, you can resort to humor all you want - qouting Darth Vader only being your latest in a long line of such antics - but your constant evasions in answering SERIOUS questions put to you is quite obvious.
Not exactly what we would expect from a self-professed professional scientist with an education from a "world class" university.
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