The Painful Truth About The Worldwide Church of God

Email To The Editor
(Page 51)

(Mail from Kooks, Nuts and Loonies is on another page)


6/3/01

 REPLY to previous message:
 when you can be a real man. and not just quote me, and then reply to the things that you have some heartbreaking "evidence" that God doesn't exist, and put down some FACTS that there is no afterlife, or that God isn't real. then i'll believe you. but you can't pose questions like "how do YOU know he is real? have YOU seen him?" because that isn't any evidence of his nonexistence. thats a frustrated person trying to warp another individuals mind to their own. have you ever seen the wind? i have never. but i know it exists cause i can feel it. that is just how i know God exists. i could be like you and claim that the wind doesn't exist, cause some days i can't feel it cool me. or because i can't "see" it. Or because a tornado destroys a family's home. whats to say that the wind exists? and God does not?

you might be my "brother" through spite of Jesus, but i refuse to beleive that i'm related, even so distantly, to a person who truely has no reason, for his hate towards a God that will ultimately have the final Judgement.

truley,

unblined.

 REPLY:

 YOU WROTE:

??????

REPLY:

As difficult as it is trying to figure out what you are trying to communicate, I will try to answer you.

YOU WROTE:

that you have some heartbreaking "evidence" that God doesn't exist

REPLY:

I have never said that. I see the whole universe and this Earth as an incredible creation by some god being. I just see no evidence at all that this being gives one little shit about mankind.

YOU WROTE:

put down some FACTS that there is no afterlife,

REPLY:

You are the one that says that there is an afterlife. It is up to you to prove it to me. If I were an automaker and I say that I have a car that will use water as fuel, how can you disprove that unless you had access to that car? It would be up to me, as the maker of the car, to demonstrate to you that it could or it couldn't run on water otherwise you would say that it was impossible and I am a liar. The same goes for your "afterlife" proposition. I see no evidence for any afterlife. You think that you have that evidence, so produce it. The fact is that nobody has ever come back from the dead, except in your fairy tale book, the bible, and I do not accept that flawed book as any evidence. There is more evidence that a car will indeed some day be powered by water than there is of any afterlife. Why is it that people will believe whatever someone says as long as they have the correct "religious" uniform on, but they are skeptical about everyone else? Why, when it comes to religion, don't we demand some proof? Is that just too scary?

YOU WROTE:

because that isn't any evidence of his nonexistence

REPLY:

Well, there is plenty of evidence of his non-involvement and that is what I have said, repeatedly. See the Acts of God webpage.

YOU WROTE:

you might be my "brother" through spite of Jesus

REPLY:

I think you really have a problem not only writing and thinking correctly but also with reading correctly. What I wrote was "in spite of Jesus." Meaning, I don't "need Jesus" to be your brother because of our common humanity.

YOU WROTE:

a person who truly has no reason, for his hate towards a God

REPLY:

Where did you ever get it from me that I "hate" god? How can I hate some being that ultimately is responsible for my being here right now, able to live in the greatest country in the world, and able to see and feel and enjoy the creation, and have the potential to be and do anything that I want? I don't hate this "god"; I just do not see it being involved in our human lives.

YOU WROTE:

towards a God that will ultimately have the final Judgment.

REPLY:

So, will this "god" of yours judge me as less than you because I demand proof before I will believe? Are you more righteous than I because you believe whatever you are told without any proof? Is gullibleness a prerequisite for your afterlife? Should I believe anything that any "religious" person says or should I expect them to prove what they want me to believe? Will "It" condemn me because I use my brain to think things through? Does "It" condemn me because I will not accept the teachings of the bible simply because so many others have blindly accepted it, without question, down through the ages? Will "It" condemn me for thinking that any god worth worshiping, if it wanted to communicate with mankind, would inspire or write a book with no flaws and incapable of misleading people or giving them wrong teachings? If there be a god that has a final Judgment, I will hope that it is bigger than humanly devised religions. If not, then I don't care to spend the "afterlife" with you or your "god."

YOU WROTE:

truley,

unblined.

REPLY:

Huh? Do you speak English?

Editor


I was brought up in the wwcg cult also, and I think that everyone should know the real truth. We came into the cult in 1958 and had my life totally torn up. No Christmas, birthdays or any "pagan" holidays. My father worked for AC starting in 1964 and we were shoved into imperial schools. Basically, I hated it all. I averaged about thirty swats a day and they used rugby type boards. 'nuff said about that. Me and a couple of other "bad boys" ran away a few times. Garner Ted walked by me one day and asked me why I wasn't smiling. "don't you like it here?", he asked me.

I was baptized in 1969 and in 1973 was kicked out for having a girlfriend. I think by this time I had had all of the controlling I could handle.

People should be aware of this and other cults and know that we control our own destiny. It was good to find your site and I know I'll be back. Thanks for spreading the real plain truth!

wes


 I have looked at a lot of other sites that could be considered in the same genre as "ours," if I may use the word ours. It usually takes only a few minutes before I find something that I dislike and disagree with on these sites. The epitome of an example would be sites by ex-Worldwide Church of God'ers who are still "christian." To use the ultimate insult to any WCG church member -"they haven't changed a bit."

I feel a personal pride when I see a website that makes damn sure everyone knows they disagree with us -then links to us several times for references.

The only thing about "our" site that I don't like is the spiritual kindergartners who arrogantly try to instruct and counsel those of us who have spiritual Ph.D.'s. Then they make absolute fools and laughing stocks out of themselves by offering to "prey" for us.......

And I say the following without any anger, bitterness or hostility at all, just facts. I have thought about going through the list of emails and thoroughly exposing their ignorance, superstitions, vacuum of logic, empty proclamations, and their very, very dangerous belief structures (if they had real power, the world would be a nightmare). Not to mention their outright spiritual insanity.

For example, I find it incomprehensible for christians to teach that it is absolutely righteous and holy for god to rape and impregnate an under aged, non-consenting, virgin girl (Probably in her sleep, and definitely without her knowledge), and then in supreme arrogance proclaim that we cannot have morals without their belief structure.

A good, logical, well thought out personal opinion can be persuasive. Yet christians come to our site with empty, worthless "proclamations." Proclamations that are black holes of reality and total vacuums of knowledge, truth, achievements, value, proof, or even the slightest shred of evidence. They even go so far as taking what we actually say and then "proclaiming" that we said something else.

Christians leaders and sheep alike do not believe in accountability for a nanosecond. I think it is centuries past time for them to account for their words, actions and beliefs. And I think it's time for them to "explain" their endless but empty proclamations.

I have a dream. What if "we" had a financial support base that allowed us to become full time, professional "spiritual vampire hunters." I wonder just how many debate challenges religious leaders would accept. This is especially intriguing because so many of us spent many years in spokesmansclub. What if religious leaders had to openly and publicly account for their words, beliefs, doctrines and actions. What if they had to openly explain why they refuse such challenges? What if...

Unfortunately, this dream always ends the same way -christian bullets coming through our windows aimed at our heads. Abortion clinics have clearly revealed just how thin the veneer of righteousness is with christians -these are very dangerous people.

The christians writing to this site also clearly reveal just how thin that veneer is. How many of us would want to work for them with them knowing who we are? How many of us would want them to have any significant power over our personal lives? (None!) Would they make kind, caring, fair, and tolerant bosses?

The only religious freedom that exists in this country, or the world for that matter, is the freedom to believe what religion teaches. The freedom to follow their commands and doctrines. Outside of that, you live at great risk.

If we had the means to become professional vampire hunters, I am certain that we could prove and document that atheist receive just as many "miracles" as religionist.

What about all of the religious stories of gang members and criminals who are "converted" and turn their lives around 180 degrees? I am certain that we could prove and document that boxing, other sports, getting a good job, sudden wealth, bumping your head, college, the military, and especially members of the complimenting sex have changed and turned around far, far, far more lives than religion ever dreamed of.

I am certain that people turning their lives around is not the sole and proprietary possession of religion. I know this for a fact because getting "away" from religion turned my life around 180 degrees for the better. I am certain that you can name any human activity or endeavor that exists, and you will find that it has turned lives around 180 degrees for the better. Even becoming a lawyer had to change "somebody's" life around for the better.

I am also certain that a life based on religion is a life based on spiritual drugs, 4,000 year old superstitions, ignorance, and blind faith in insanity.

It's hard to imagine writing a book that doesn't simply rehash what's already been written before. However, if I were to write a book, there's no doubt about what the title would be...

 "Religion is the greatest hoax ever perpetrated in history."

  JimV

NoMoreCults@Aol.Com 


Bill,

Damn! Let me just say that you are one fine writer, and have explained a lot of things I've wondered about concerning the life and times of the WW+ and Perbert and Garner Stud...J

I just wanted to tell you personally that I believe you've done a great service to these readers here, and to me personally, and to thank you for your insight, sir!

You mentioned in your piece (the term, 'Article' just doesn't do your work justice) that "Don't you just love Jefferson? I sure do."

Yes I certainly do, sir.

I submit maybe my favorite Jeffersonism:

"Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question."

Jefferson's First Inaugural Address, March 4, 1801

Yours Respectfully,

Mike Minton

Mike@minton.net 

www.mike.minton.net


Hi!

I came across your site whilst researching for a book detailing my life as a child within the WCG. My parents were involved with the cult in the UK from when I was 18 months old.

I was sexually abused by an elder over probably a longer period of time than I choose to remember. He wrote to them and confessed, but I had no knowledge of this confession until I was twenty-one and the abuser had long since died in a sanatorium. I have four brothers and a sister. Out of the six children, five were sexually abused by people within the church. There have been several suicide attempts.

I am finding unraveling memories from childhood an extremely painful and emotional experience, as I recall instances and experiences which I now know were wrong and evil.

The damage done by this cult to the innocent victims, i.e. the children who did not choose to join and embrace this strange way of life, is irrevocable. My personality was shaped during the sixties and seventies to a degree that I don't feel a part of "normal" society at all.

Your site disturbs me as the implication seems to be that pedophiles were quite common within the church. Is this the case? If so, what are the reasons?

I never felt loved or wanted as a child and this also seems to be a common thread. The child rearing booklet was probably responsible for that. Were children supposed to be merely a part of a great master plan?

Sorry for the rant. Great site. You can publish what you want from me.


 From: "Ray" <rayjjr@digisys.net 

Subject: PT Webpage

 Dear Sir:

I was raised in the church you speak of on your webpage. I also gave countless dollars, lost jobs over holy days, etc. The experience was nothing but positive because it led me to Christ the Lord and Savior who gave his life for my sins so that I might have eternal life. So, I can't complain. Sadly, our congregation lost so many members that I had to move to a different church, but happily, the new church (Lutheran) had almost identical doctrines and beliefs! So now I pour my money into it in the hopes that God's word (which has richly blessed me) will be spread further (to those like yourself).

Sadly, it doesn't sound like you've gotten the point yet, so I (and my children) will pray for you. I hope someday His message gets through. Be patient, God works in his own time. You may remain bitter for years to come, but as I said, be patient. God works his plans according to a greater purpose. Perhaps if you pray as well, God will lift the bitterness from your heart. Ask for his forgiveness, try to change as best as you can, and believe in the sacrifice of Jesus. None of us is perfect, least of all me, but with his sacrifice and saving grace, we have hope.

With love in Christ,

Ray

 REPLY:

Dear Ray:

As you may know, Casper the Ghost is a harmless, gentle cartoon ghost. This is a fictional character, just like your Jesus.

How would you feel if I sent you the following message?:

I was raised in the church you speak of on your webpage. I also gave countless dollars, lost jobs over holy days, etc. The experience was nothing but positive because it led me to Casper The Ghost the Lord and Savior who gave his life for my sins so that I might have eternal life. So, I can't complain. Sadly, our congregation lost so many members that I had to move to a different church, but happily, the new church (Lutheran) had almost identical doctrines and beliefs! So now I pour my money into it in the hopes that Casper The Ghost's word (which has richly blessed me) will be spread further (to those like yourself).

Sadly, it doesn't sound like you've gotten the point yet, so I (and my children) will pray for you. I hope someday His message gets through. Be patient, Casper The Ghost works in his own time. You may remain bitter for years to come, but as I said, be patient. Casper The Ghost works his plans according to a greater purpose. Perhaps if you pray as well, Casper The Ghost will lift the bitterness from your heart. Ask for his forgiveness, try to change as best as you can, and believe in the sacrifice of Casper The Ghost. None of us is perfect, least of all me, but with his sacrifice and saving grace, we have hope.

With love in Casper The Ghost,

Editor

I asked how you would feel. I think that you would feel offended that I would belittle your "god" and your beliefs by being so presumptuous as to preach to you about my beliefs and my "god," assuming that my beliefs are just so much superior to yours.

Now we are even Ray. Just go away and believe whatever you want. You don't bother me and I won't bother you.

Your brother in Casper,

Editor

 REPLY:

Dear "Editor" (It's amusing that you gave yourself this title):

Here are some words of encouragement My family and I will pray for you. I'll put you on our prayer list at church too, and I've already taken the liberty of starting the prayer tree on your behalf. As I said, be patient, God even has a purpose for this difficult time in your life. I won't contact you anymore so you don't become further aggravated during this already frustrating time in your life. Just be patient and wait for God.

With Love in Christ,

Ray

 REPLY:

 The death threats from your fellow "Christians" are not near as amusing as my exalted title and position.

Do you find anything in the word "Editor" that does not fit what I do? (edoit (ed'it)

Verb: edoitoed, edoitoing, edoits.
1. To prepare for publication, as by revising.
2. To supervise the publication of. Etymology: Latin edere, to publish.
ed'iotor )

I don't see your last name on your email; are you trying to remain anonymous so that your name is not blasted out to every search engine in the world? If you give me your full name, I will do that for you. My full name was on this site for three years until your fellow christians began making death threats and I became concerned about my family, not myself. Do you realize how many millions of people you christians have killed in the name of your god?

This is not a difficult or frustrating time in my life, other than dealing with foolish people such as yourself. My life is very good and happy and fulfilling. I publish (and edit) the PT site as a public service for the greater good of humanity.

You know Ray, I would like you to tell me just what exactly you are praying for and please put a time limit on it. I want you to really nail down this paper god of yours and to see how much of a result you can get from praying to it. Are you praying that I will be reconverted to Christianity? Are you praying that the PT website will be closed down? Just what the hell are you praying for that can be substantiated as actually happening or not happening? Or, are you perfectly content to just waste your time praying for generalities such as "bless the president and help him to make wise decisions," blah, blah, blah, ad infinitum? I am challenging your "god" to do whatever you are praying to happen to me, so make it something that can be proven. If it doesn't happen, your god is not a god at all and doesn't deserve your worship. I will even put a countdown timer on my main page where everyone can watch how ineffective Ray's god is or at least Ray's prayers.

I also will pray to Casper that he would open your eyes to the truth. You are so bitter minded against Casper. If you would only just "believe" in Him, he could help you to see that He is the Savior and not this Jesus imposter. Casper has answered so many of my prayers but when he doesn't answer them the way that I want, well, it is just Casper's will and not my will; and maybe the answer is no. Casper is all-knowing and all seeing and sees things in the light of Eternity and not as us mere mortals. This gives me a good excuse for Him not helping me when I REALLY need help.

 If you would just allow Casper to enter into your heart, you would feel the peace that only Casper can bring. Do you "know" Casper? So many people will testify to the absolute fact that Casper has changed their lives. Many lives have been changed for the better because people have given up their own lives to follow Casper. Ray, you are so wrong in following Jesus. Casper is the ANSWER. No wars have ever been fought over Casper. Casper is the friendly ghost. He is invisible. The wind is invisible. You cannot see the wind can you? That proves that Casper is real. Casper has created all things, even you Ray. It doesn't matter if you believe that or not because it is the truth. Some day you will understand and until that time, I will be wasting a lot of my time praying to Casper that He will open your eyes to the TRUTH.

Yours, in the love of Casper,

Editor

  REPLY:

Dear "Editor" (yes, it is amusing):

Here are the specifics that you requested:

The timeline is within your lifetime (before you die). That's because that's when the deadline is. If you haven't accepted Christ as your savior by then, you can't have eternal life, you die because of your sins. If you have accepted Him as your savior, then you can have eternal life.

The content of the prayers is that God send his Holy Spirit to convert your hardened heart to one of love, remove the bitterness you harbor, and that he cause you to accept Christ as your savior.

By the way, you seem to be holding some kind of grudge against those Christians who threatened your life. [Incidentally, we will pray for them too]. But I think you should know that, though I do not condone their intentions or statements, Christians are just as sinful as non-Christians. We are not perfect, we make statements we should not make, we are still as adept at falling off the track as non-Christians, athiests, whomever. So it doesn't matter who said that they are trying to cause harm to you, it's wrong regardless. The fact that it's Christians is really a moot point.

Also by the way, I'm curious, if you once attended the Worldwide Church of God as you state, what changed your mind so that you no longer believe in God?

Let's say you totally change and spend the rest of your life and money in church but then it turns out that I was wrong and there isn't really a God. So what's wrong with that? You can't take your money with you when you die anyway, and if He really doesn't exist, so what. But what if you do those things and it turns out I'm right?

With Love in Christ

Ray

  REPLY:

YOU WROTE:

Dear "Editor" (yes, it is amusing):

REPLY:

Well, Ray, I see you do not have the courage to send me your full name so that I can blast it out for the whole world to see, so I guess you must be a little bit afraid of something too. Could it be that you do not trust your paper god to protect you? At least I admit that I don't trust any god to protect me. I don't waste my time praying to a god that will only help me after I am dead. (I do take a lot of comfort in my Glock though. Glocks will protect you right now, when you really need the help.)

YOU WROTE:

The timeline is within your lifetime (before you die).

REPLY:

Well, now, that is just a useless god. And what a copout: I can see how you will cover your ass no matter what happens. If I die before your god saves me, then your prayers were ineffective but it was all my fault because my heart was so hard and bitter that your god didn't have the power to save me. I guess that makes me bigger and stronger than your god. Your god is such a wimp that you are afraid to put a time limit on him. You know that you will be disappointed so your won't do it. Shoot, there goes my countdown timer on the webpage so everyone could see how impotent your god is and what a waste of time it is to pray to it.

YOU WROTE:

By the way, you seem to be holding some kind of grudge against those Christians who threatened your life.

REPLY:

Oh, no. I really look forward to having them "meat" my Pit Bull or say hello to my Glock. I really don't hold their craziness against them, I understand that they are doped up on their drug, religion, and are really not sane.

YOU WROTE:

we are still as adept at falling off the track as non-Christians

REPLY:

Well then, what the hell good is your religion if it doesn't make you a better person? Oh, I remember, it is only good for after you are dead. That is when you collect your reward.

YOU WROTE:

The fact that it's Christians is really a moot point.

REPLY:

No, it is not a moot point because the point is that they want me dead because I am destroying their little human god, Herbert W. Armstrong by telling the truth about him. If they were not Christians, they would not be offended at their fat, little god getting knocked over.

YOU WROTE:

Also by the way, I'm curious, if you once attended the Worldwide Church of God as you state, what changed your mind so that you no longer believe in God?

REPLY:

The instructions are to read the FAQ before you write to me.

YOU WROTE:

Let's say you totally change and spend the rest of your life and money in church but then it turns out that I was wrong and there isn't really a God. So what's wrong with that?

REPLY:

What's wrong is that the life that I know I have would be wasted doing things that are useless and time consuming. What is wrong is that my money would have been going to something that will not benefit me, my family or the rest of mankind, but would be feeding a fat and lazy religious hierarchy.

YOU WROTE:

You can't take your money with you when you die anyway

REPLY:

Well, whatever is left I will leave to my children. Duh.

YOU WROTE:

But what if you do those things and it turns out I'm right?

REPLY:

Ah, yes, "Pascal's wager." That is so immature of you. See below.

 

This is all for you Ray. Had enough of your mindless, drug induced, blind faith in NOTHING. People like you make me physically sick. If you are going to be in "heaven," tell your god to leave me out. If you really believe that my or other people's salvation depends on your prayers, why are you wasting time surfing the internet and sending stupid email to me? If I thought that my prayers had enough power to keep people from going to hell, I would quit my job and devote my whole life to praying. Why don't you? Think about this as you are having sex with your boyfriend or girlfriend: you could be praying for someone so that they won't be lost for all eternity. Don't be wasting valuable time on your own pleasures.

 Yours in Casper's name, 

Editor

_______________________________________________
From http://www.secularspirituality.org/recovery/whatlose.html

Pascal's Wager

One of the supposed selling points of believing the Christian message is expressed thus: If the Christian is wrong, and there is no God, no Jesus, no heaven, no hell, you lose nothing by believing. But if the Christian is right, then you risk Hellfire and Torment and Wailing and Gnashing of Teeth Forever and Ever Amen, courtesy of the God with whom you are supposed to want to spend eternity.

So, says the Smiling Evangelist, best to play it safe and believe. What have you got to lose?

 What have you got to lose by believing the fundamentalist message? Only a lifetime in which you could have lived the way you really wanted to live, according to what you really believed. Only a lifetime in which you could have pursued the goals, the dreams, the projects that really mattered to you.

Only a lifetime unhampered by the need to make everything fit into the confines of an Evangelically Correct world view.

Only a lifetime free of having to justify your every thought, opinion, word, and action with a proof-text or argument from the Bible.

Only a lifetime.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What does it profit to gain a delusional sense of security about an unverified and improbable "afterlife" and lose the one life you know you have?


 Greetings in the name of Jesus Christ,

I visited your site for the first time this morning and felt compelled to write to you. I don't know what "religious" faith you have been afflitated with or what your teaching and understanding of the Bible is but I can't agree with you.

I was raised in an pentecostal/apostolic church-where I reamain to this day-and I am a woman. I have never picked up the Bible and felt as though the Bible hated me. The Bible is a book of divine love -God's love and mercy. I don't have a problem with the fact that that God used men predominately more than women in his work and to spread his word. The fact is God can use whomever he chooses and who am I to question my creator. Also what difference does it make if he used a man or a woman, the gender argument is as trivial as the argument over whether Jesus was black or white. None of these are arguments amount to anything except to cause division amongst God's people and they give place to the devil and his work.

As far as the women in the Bible being blamed for things. Anyone that sinned against God and his rules were chastised. Women were not singled out. Eve sinned intentionally because of her own lust and Adam sinned because his eyes were on the woman instead of God , thus allowing him to be decieved. Regardless of who ate the fruit first they were both wrong and caused a "curse" to be brought on all of us until the end of time. The Lord held them equally responsible and they were both punished, because they both knew the rules.

As far as women today:

I am a married woman in the church and I have never felt inferior to a man or useless. When I pick up the word of God I am empowered and encouraged that through Christ I can do ALL things. I am an active evangilist in my church and the youth director and I am in the process of putting together a program for the women in my church. At home I share in all business, my husband and I make joint decisions. Many people misinterpret the scriptures and are mislead. That is why it is important to know Jesus for yourself, develop a personal relationship with him. "Study to shew thyslef approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightfully dividing the word of truth."

When you pick up the word of God you will see that the Lord clearly has chosen roles for men and women, who are we to question God " His ways are not our ways, his thoughts are not our thoughts." Whatever the roles of men and women when you have Christ in your life these roles balance out.

I encourage anyone that is not happy with their lives to seek after the Lord and HIS plan of salvation. Allow the Lord to lead guide and direct your heart and life. Stop bickering about things that really don't matter, there is a hurting world out there that needs to know that there is a God that loves them and cares about them. I know when I need to hear words of encouragement in tough situations, I don't care who says it male or female just as long as I hear those words .

God Bless you

Sister Lisa

  REPLY:

 YOU WROTE:

Greetings in the name of Jesus Christ,

REPLY:

Similar greetings in the name of Casper the Ghost.

YOU WROTE:

I don't know what "religious" faith you have been afflitated with or what your teaching and understanding of the Bible is but I can't agree with you.

REPLY:

If you don't know what my understanding or teaching is, how can you say that you can't agree with me? Why, when I specifically mention on the Email Notice Page that you are to READ THE FAQ before you write to me, don't you do that? Do you think that your questions are so special that they have never been asked before?

YOU WROTE:

I have never picked up the Bible and felt as though the Bible hated me.

REPLY:

Well, that is just because you are not keeping to the full intent and meaning of the Bible. If you only pick and choose what you are going to believe or obey, you will not be picking those things that are detrimental to yourself. See the list below of Bible Insults to Women. .

YOU WROTE:

the gender argument is as trivial

REPLY:

I guess it is only trivial if you are happy being a lower class citizen, according to the Bible.

YOU WROTE:

Women were not singled out.

REPLY:

Women were definitely singled out. See the list below.

 YOU WROTE:

That is why it is important to know Jesus for yourself, develop a personal relationship with him.

REPLY:

Yeah, just keep telling yourself that. Say it often enough and you even start to believe it.

 YOU WROTE:

who are we to question God

REPLY:

What kind of god would not want us to question everything that we believe?

YOU WROTE:

Stop bickering about things that really don't matter

REPLY:

Who are you to say what matters and what doesn't matter? My opinion is just as valid as yours.

YOU WROTE:

there is a hurting world out there that needs to know that there is a God that loves them and cares about them.

REPLY:

We can agree on that point. Well, if your god cares so much about people, why doesn't he show them that he loves them and cares about them? See the Acts of God webpage.  Just telling people that god cares doesn't help at all except in a deluded, religiously drug numbed, mind. There is no evidence at all that there is a god that loves and cares about mankind.

YOU WROTE:

God Bless you

REPLY:

Casper the Ghost Bless you.
Editor


Bible Insults to Women

 God's curse of all women.  Gen.3:16

 Lot [the just and righteous (2 Pet.2:7-8)] offers his daughters to a crowd of angel rapers. Gen.19:8

 A drunken Lot impregnates his daughters.  Gen.19:30-36

 Judah impregnates his daughter in law (Tamar).  Gen.38:16, 18

 After Judah pays Tamar for her services, he is told that she "played the harlot" and "is with child by whoredom." When Judah hears this, he says, "Bring her forth, and let her be burnt." Gen.38:24

 Instructions for selling your daughter  Ex.21:7

 Instructions for taking a second wife  Ex.21:10

 Baby girls are twice as dirty as baby boys. Lev.12:1-8

 Menstruating women are unclean to God. Lev.15:19-30

 Don't look at any naked menstruating women. Lev.18:19

 If you have sex with a slave woman, you must then scourge her. Lev.19:20

 Woman with "familiar spirits" must be stoned to death. Lev.20:27

 Unchaste daughters of priests must be burnt to death. Lev.21:9

 God places a dollar value on human life; with women worth less than men. Lev.27:3-7

 The law of jealousies. Num.5:11-31

 A woman can't make a vow unless her husband allows it. Num.30:3-16

 Moses tells his men to kill all the males and non-virgin women, but to keep all the virgins alive for themselves. Num.31:14-18

 Kill all the men and boys in the cities that God "delivers into your hands," but keep the women for yourself. Dt.20:13-15

 If you see a pretty woman among the captives then just take her home and "go in unto her." Dt.21:11-14

 Women that wear men's clothing are an "abomination unto the Lord." Dt.22:5

 How to dispose of a hated wife. Dt.22:13-22

 Women, be sure to keep the tokens of your virginity. Otherwise the men of your city may stone you to death. Dt.22:13-21

 Kill rape victims if they fail to cry out loud enough. Dt.22:23-34

 A rapist must buy his victim from her father for 50 shekels. Dt.22:28-29

 How to divorce your wife if you find "some uncleanness in her." Dt.24:1-4

 You must cut off a woman's hand if she touches the "secrets" of a man who is fighting with her husband. "And thine eye shall not pity her." Dt.25:11-12

 "Have they not divided the prey, to every man a damsel or two?" Jg.5:30

 Gideon "had many wives." Jg.8:30

 Jephthah sacrifices his daughter to God. Jg.11:29-39

 The Levite and his concubine. Jg.19:22-30

 Ruth is "purchased" by Boaz for a wife. Ru.4:10

 David buys a wife with 200 Philistine foreskins (twice the asking price). 1 Sam.18:25-27

 "And David took him more concubines and wives." 2 Sam.5:13

 God says he will give David's wives to someone else who will "lie with thy wives in the sight of the sun." 2 Sam.12:11-12

 Absalom "goes in unto" his father's [David's] concubines. 2 Sam.16:21-22

 Solomon's 700 wives and 300 concubines. 1 Kg.11:3

 The Israelites offend God by "taking" foreign wives and thereby corrupting the "holy seed." Ezra 9:2

 Ezra tells the men that they must abandon their "strange" wives and children if they want to avoid God's wrath. Ezra 10:2-3, 10-12

 Nehemiah rebukes the men for marrying "strange wives."  Neh.13:25-27

 Queen Vashti (the real heroine of the Book of Esther) refuses to display herself in front of the king's drunken guests. Est.1:7-12

 For her refusal, Vashti is stripped of her crown. Est.1:13-19

 Because of Vashti's disobedience the king decrees that "all the wives shall give to their husbands honor" and "that every man should bear rule over his own house." Est.1:20-22

 "All the fair young virgins" throughout the kingdom are brought before the king and the one that "pleaseth" him the most will replace Queen Vashti. Est.2:2-4

 Esther wins the pleasing the king babe contest. Est.2:8-9

 But since women are dirty, she must be "purified" for twelve months before she can be made queen. Est.2:12

 Watch out for those strange, brawling, angry, contentious, adulterous, odious women. Pr.2:16-18, 5:3-5, 6:24-26, 7:5-27, 21:19 22:14, 23:27-28, 25:24, 27:15, 30:20, 30:23

 Foolish women are simple and know nothing; they drag innocent men into hell. Pr.9:13

 "As a jewel of gold in a swine's snout, so is a fair woman which is without discretion." Pr.11:22

 "Give not they strength unto women." Pr.31:3

 God will "smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion" because he dislikes the way they dress and walk. Is.3:16

 "The Lord will discover their secret parts." Is.3:17

 "Thou shalt cast them away as a menstrous cloth." Is.30:22

 "Tremble, ye women that are at ease ... strip you, and make you bare. Is.32:11

 God compares the destruction of Jerusalem to the rape of a woman who deserves to be raped because she has sinned. Jer.13:22

 "Jerusalem is as a menstrous woman." To God this is an insult. Lam.1:17

 God marks the foreheads of the men who will be saved. To God only men are worth keeping. All of the women are to be slaughtered. Ezek.9:4

 Good men stay away from menstruating women. Ezek.18:6

 A tale of two sisters. Ezek.23:1-46

 God kills Ezekiel's wife and tells him not to mourn her. Ezek.24:15-18

 God talks about whoredoms, adulteries between breasts. He plans to strip a woman naked as the day she was born and to discover her lewdness in the sight of her lovers. Ezek.2:2-3, 2:10

 In accordance with God's command, Hosea buys a wife for 15 pieces of silver and one and a half homers of barley. Hos.3:2

 If you misbehave, God will make your daughters "commit whoredom" and your wife "commit adultery." Hos.4:13

 Hosea asks God to "give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts." Hos.9:14

 God promises to dash to pieces the infants of Samaria and "their women with child shall be ripped up." Hos.13:16

 In the middle of his threats and insults God says, "Behold, thy people in the midst of thee are women." I guess this ("You're all just a bunch of women.") was the biggest insult God could think of at the moment. Nah.3:13

  God will see to it that Jerusalem "shall be taken ... and the women ravished." Zech.14:2

 Abandon your wife and children for Jesus and he'll give your a big reward. Mt.19:29, Mk.10:29

 "Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days." Why? Does God especially hate pregnant and nursing women? Mt.24:19, Mk.13:17

 Paul explains that "the natural use" of women is to act as sexual objects for the pleasure of men. Rom.1:27

 Paul says "the head of the woman is the man," meaning that the women are to be subordinate to men. 1 Cor.11:3

  Women are commanded by Paul to be silent in church and to be obedient to men. He further says that "if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is  a shame for women to speak in church." 1 Cor.14:34-35

  Paul orders wives to submit themselves to their husbands "in every thing" as though they were gods. "For the husband is the head of the wife." Eph.5:22-24

Wives, according to Paul, must submit themselves to their husbands. Col.3:18 

Women are to dress modestly, "with shamefacedness" -- "not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array." 1 Tim.2:9

 Paul forbids women to teach or "to usurp authority over" men. Rather they are to "learn [from men] in silence with all subjection [to men]." 1 Tim.2:11-12

 Men are superior to women in Paul's eyes, since Adam was made before, and sinned after, Eve. But, even though women are inferior to men, Paul says they shouldn't be discouraged because they shall "be saved in childbearing." 1 Tim.2:14-15

 Real widows are "desolate" and pray "night and day." But those widows that experience pleasure are "dead while [they] live." 1 Tim.5:5-6

 You should help a widow only if she : 1) is over 70 years old, 2) had only one husband, 3) has raised children, 4) has lodged strangers, 5) has "washed the saints feet," 6) has relieved the afflicted, and 7) has "diligently followed very good work." Otherwise, let them starve. "But the younger widows refuse [to help]: for ... they will marry; having damnation." Besides the young widows are always idle tattlers -- "busybodies, spreading things which they ought not." He adds that "some are already turned aside after Satan." 1 Tim.5:9-15

 Even old women must be "obedient to their own husbands." Tit.2:3,5

 Peter orders all wives to be "in subjection" to their husbands. 1 Pet.3:1

 Peter describes Lot, who in Gen.19:8 offers his two virgin daughters to a crowd of angel rapers and later (19:30-38) impregnates them, as a "righteous man." 2 Pet.2:8

 Only 144,00 celibate men will be saved. (Those who were not "defiled with women.") Rev.14:3-4


 Hello Alex,

Earlier today I came across your Web page ("To Be Fore-Warned [sic] Is To Be Fore-Armed" [sic])--that contains comments about me.

I noticed that you make the following statement in your disclaimer concerning getting in touch with you by E-mail: "None of the information on this WebSite is intended to be a personal attack but merely to expose abusive religious practices and to make fun of the perpetrators who we hold in contempt. I have tried to make sure that everything on The Painful Truth is the whole truth but, if you have proof that any information on this site is untrue, send me the proof and I will change it."

Since you make that statement, I hope you will have the integrity to correct a falsehood you have put on your site concerning me.

You state the following:

"The idea that these piddly churches were still spreading that virus and scaring hell out of people, prompted me to send Ashley a four page document by e-mail (ScottAshley@world net.) The essence of my message contained some of my material posted on the Painful Truth. I accused him of rehashing the old Armstrong Bible Study Course and casting his net in un-fished waters. I asked him a series of direct questions pertaining to biblical errancies to which he responded by playing the artful dodger. I accused him of it, and told him the God I believed in wasn't the sadistic, baby killing, torturing, nation-slaughtering one depicted in the Bible study course his church was offering. Under the title "Why the Bible is the Word of God." I must have struck a nerve, as he blocked any further e-mail from me."

We obviously have differences of opinion about your characterization of our correspondence, and I'm not interested in rehashing that. However, I'm not sure where you got the idea that, as you put it, "he blocked any further e-mail from me." That is simply not true. I did no such thing.

I can't help but notice that the E-mail address and link you show in that paragraph is incorrect. I never have had that address, so presumably the problem is yours. I did have the addresses "rsashley@aol.com" and "rsashley@worldnet.att.net"--but dropped them a year ago when I changed internet service providers.

I've never blocked your or anyone else's E-mail to me--in fact, I don't even know how to do that.

You later twice more accuse me of blocking your E-mail:

"I intended to hit Ashley with a few of these before he blocked me . . . I won't quote all the questions, but a few that I thought some of the P.T. viewers may want to send to Scott Ashley, since he turned me off."

Sorry, Alex, but I don't think changing internet service providers (so I could get a speed higher than 28.8) qualifies as "blocking" your E-mail and turning you off. Unless, of course, by your definition you have "blocked" everyone who at any time had your E-mail address when you've switched addresses or ISPs. For the record, your correspondence had nothing at all to do with my decision to switch ISPs, and I certainly wasn't trying to block you or anyone else.

As for McKinsey's book--which you seem to think so highly of--I'm surprised you would quote those questions from it. You say you were a WCG member for years. Yet, in citing those questions from him, you seem quite unaware of many of the WCG's past teachings on these very points. For instance, the first question is easily answered by the former WCG teaching on the second resurrection (Revelation 20:5, 12), which you presumably understood at one time. That teaching is the only explanation I've heard from any church (or any religion, for that matter) that sensibly answers that question.

The second question is also easily explained by the fact that God created all humans with free will, not as automatons that couldn't make mistakes. Thus none of us is perfect, including Adam and Eve.

The third question is easily explained by the fact that a corrupt prophet makes one statement as to his view of God, while a man of God, Moses, records the other as a historical fact.

I could go on, but since you apparently hold the view that the Bible is "a book filled with screwy scriptures" and with "many, many errancies [sic] and contradictions," I don't see much point in trying to convince you otherwise. Perhaps you will at some point come full circle like the University of Aberdeen professor Sir William Ramsey (1851-1939), who set out determined to disprove the Bible, only to find that the historical evidence compelled him to become a staunch believer. I hope that you will at some point get past your bitterness enough to see things more objectively.

For the record, your Web page contains some other misstatements you may wish to correct. For one thing, you attribute the quotes in the first lesson of our Bible Study Course to me. If you will look at the last page of that lesson, you will see that three people are listed as writers of that lesson, and my name is not among them. I was one of the editors and reviewers of that lesson, but I didn't make those statements you attribute to me. (This is not to say that I disagree with them, but to make the point that others deserve the credit for that work, not me.)

You also make the statement concerning us "preying preachers who purvey pure prophetic poppycock for their livelihoods": "Get them out of the God-business, and they are totally lost. If they were forced into a hard-earned living, they would perish. Unless McDonald's or Burger King took pity on them."

For the record, I worked in private industry 1976-78 and 1980-96, including a several-year stint with Rodale Press, one of the nation's biggest magazine and book publishers. Less than a year ago I turned down an unsolicited job offer (in the publishing field) that would have roughly doubled my salary--to about $100,000 annually--because I'd rather continue what I'm doing. Since you state that you "have tried to make sure that everything on The Painful Truth is the whole truth," you might want to change that statement as well.

You have my permission to use this E-mail on your site, providing that you include ALL of my comments in this message. If you do not agree to that, you do not have my permission to use this message. However, since you present yourself as greatly concerned with the truth, I would expect you to correct the falsehoods you have on your site concerning me.

Sincerely,

Scott Ashley

 REPLY:

 Hi Scott

 What happened to our little t^te-...-t^te? The ball was in your court and you blocked my answer. We were e-mailing back and forth. You would write, I would answer and click "reply." The last e-mail I sent you must have frosted your lower extremities, (to use a more gentler term). I was answering your final e-mail in which you angrily asked me something to the effect if my god was of the same sect that worshipped cows. (A shot at the Hindus). Then you added something along the lines of "if we can't have a sensible discussion I see no reason to carry this on any further." Then, when I finished my response and clicked "reply," aol flashed an automatic "blocked" message on my screen. Yeah, Scott, don't deny it, you did block me. I will leave it to the Painful Truth readers to judge who is telling the truth.

 Your belated e-mail forwarded to me by the Painful Truth had misstatements and falsehoods of its own. Apparently you're ignorant as to the origination of the Painful Truth. It's not my web page. I don't have one. I, like the hundreds of other ripped off and disillusioned readers, merely contribute to it. So that's your first lie, Scott.

 You begin by inserting your snide "sics" in the heading of my article. Quite typical of all of Herbies' brain-trained shepherds. Flaunting your superiority. I know that fore-warn and fore-arm are hyphenated words. I intentionally used caps for effect. Hell, if it's good enough for Herbie, it's good enough for me. But he went to extremes. Apparently you published his crap. Why didn't you "sic" him? Your opening sentence is even open to suspicion. You said, "Earlier today I came across your Web Page"---that makes me very curious, Scott. The way that the Painful Truth is structured, you just don't "come across" any item unless you are particularly looking for it. I have contributed to the Painful Truth for the last 5 years. During that period of time, hundreds upon hundreds have contributed so much so, that all that material had to be formatted as is done on the web. If you are looking for a particular article, you have to identify it by typing in the title then click "search." My material with various titles is buried among all the other multitude. You have to type in the title and click "search" in order to bring it up. Honestly, now, isn't that really the way you "came across" that particular article?

 Another thing that doesn't quite jell: That a person of your status, stature, quite knowledgeable of the bible and worldly affairs, and no doubt on a very tight schedule, taking up valuable time digging into the P.T. for an article written by a former "dumb sheep." More than likely you assigned that task to a robotic underling. He dug up that obscure article that pricked your ego so you could ridicule me and vent your spleen on the Painful Truth. Bad idea, Scott. You've entered a lion's den.

 Right from the gitgo you made three boo boos: (1). I don't have a web page. (2). I don't run the Painful Truth. (3). I didn't write that disclaimer. So that's three strikes. You're out, Scotty, go back to the dugout.

 Now let's analyze some of the things you mentioned in your critique. Regarding McKinsey, you amaze me. You surprised at my quotes? I'm surprised you admit addressing the same issues using a fallible bible as a basis for your argument. A word of advice, Scott. Be very careful using scriptures on this web site. Where we hold McKinsey's book in the highest regard, we also hold bible babble in the lowest esteem. If WCG did address those issues, it did it from Herbie's viewpoint of the bible. WCG idolized it. McKinsey analyzed it. Revealing all the errancies, contradictions, lies, deceits, etc. That's why you did a fancy two-step when I addressed those quotes to you.

 You used 2 "for the record" in your e-mail. You said I made a statement that I may wish to correct. I stand by what I said. And this is exactly what I said, word for word: "Through Scott Ashley, they are offering a Bible Study Course." As far as I'm concerned, if you are the originator of that course, you are also responsible for what goes into it. Hell, ain't {sic} you the editor too?

 Your second "for the record" mentions your background which underwhelmed me. I could care diddly. Making a point of the fact you gave up a chance at a job that pays twice as much money to go with the cult that offered half that. Oh, righteous you! My background isn't as impressive or at such a higher level as yours. I am part of what Tom Brokaw called "The Greatest Generation." My generation was tried by fire. Literally. I am of the blue collar class. We strived to make a living. Fought on picket lines and battle lines. 'Nough said. I'll let it go at that. So your background doesn't impress me one single bit. You and your ilk are living high on the hog and you know it.

 Be careful using the word "fact" so loosely. My dictionary describes it thusly: "the quality of being actual"---"something that occurs or exists." In your critique you made this statement: "the second question can be easily explained by the fact that God created all humans with a free will, not as automatons that couldn't make mistakes. Thus none of us is perfect, including Adam and Eve." Scott, do you know that as a fact? Facts can be proven. Can you prove God wrote the bible from which that phrase was taken? Can you prove Adam and Eve really did exist? (More bible babble). So when you state something as a "fact" you have to offer proof of its authenticity. and quoting scriptures as evidence is an easy cop out. As you should know, but dare not admit it, the bible is a book of myths and folklore. Ah, but it is GOD'S WORD so no one dare contest it. And don't fall back on "faith" either. We've all been down that road before. My faith was stretched beyond limit by the end of 28 years. So what else do you have to offer as proof?.

 Lastly, I get a sense of chastisement when you stated I may come full circle as professor Ramsey did. In your spiritual dreams. It would be like what your bible says: a dog returning to its own vomit. For 28 years I drove rattletraps to Herbie's hoedown feast sights. Now, since I'm no longer being drained of my senses and finances, I'm driving a 2000 Buick Century and enjoying a more comfortable living. So how do you account for this, Scott? As a free thinker I'd like to present a supposition. Supposing there is a God (and most people believe that there is), and this God is an all-perfect, all gentle and most loving God, but One who disassociates Himself entirely from a book that portrays Him as less than perfect. A book that describes him as a wanton mass murderer of entire nations, hater of women, baby killer, strict disciplinarian who imposes laws, and demands sacrifices and constant adulation. A book written by mortal men who vow that this God inspired them to do it. To declare that this God expects frequent tithes, to declare that He expects weekly and holy day worship, that a woman is to treat her husband as a superior, and threatens hellfire and damnation for those who stray. A book so convoluted, contradictory, so full of difficult scriptures, many various interpretations, etc., that it causes humankind to go off on different tangents and establish a multitude of religions to honor Him the way THEY think He should be honored. Thus creating friction, animosity and holy wars in a civilization He created. Now, do you think He would condemn anyone who would follow His lead? I am sure this God would realize that people He created, being human, would be subject to errors and make mistakes. But I do not believe He would inflict the harsh punishments this book said He would. He would most likely correct them in the manner most parents do who love their offspring. I am more inclined to believe this way, due mainly to all the good things that happened to us since our departure from the UCG. Maybe this particular God rewarded us for finally coming to our senses. And presenting us with the most precious gift of all: allowing us to achieve our 55th wedding anniversary last May 11th.

 Scott, I sincerely hope you come to your senses and achieve the same goal.

 Sincerely,

Alex

 

 

 

 

 


 

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