It's not always easy to know just how hard groups like LCG are impacted by negative events, but there are signs the Charles Bryce defection has left Meredith's church reeling. Others - like Syd Hull - have walked away, but Bryce was one of the sect's top guns, and the church can probably only cope with so much dissent before the rivets start popping.
Indicator 1: Bob Thiel's reluctance to cover the sorry tale. He has buried it in an obscure section of his website rather than airing it on the main news page. First coverage was a highly selective cut and paste from AW. Bob omitted what, in my view, was the most important part of Bryce's December 5 letter. His latest comments, however, amount to less than fulsome praise for the actions of LCG's leadership. If Rod is having trouble raising cheerleaders like Bob to his cause, things are looking pretty grim.
Indicator 2: The following comments from an LCG member were forwarded from one of the discussion boards. It seems there are some unhappy folk out there in the congregations.
"This morning I went on the lcg.org and the lcg member site & there were then still sermons by Mr. Charles Bryce on these websites; tonight I did a search and they are already wiped out.
"We have not even been told officially that he's been marked, fired or disfellowshipped, yet the sermons have disappeared.
"The place I first learned about this situation was on cogwriter and that is not an "official" church website and yet, there was the info supposedly given to Mr. Thiel by Mr. Meredith.
"Why is nothing on the LCG Member Resources site?
"Doesn't all this blogging & posting & etc. as we've seen and found out about this situation just encourage gossip & bad attitudes?
"I don't understand. Why is/was it done this way? Why were we as a church, the body of Christ, given no opportunity to pray about this or fast about it with Mr. Meredith and the Elders?
"Mr. Bryce was an Evangelist, wasn't he? I don't think his letter was an attack; it just doesn't come across that way. In fact I've always agreed with what he states about the issue of make-up and can back up what I believe by what I saw happen in the 1980's when it was allowed & I saw what happened to the attitudes of women and then men & the singles etc. as I was one of them. I am confused and saddened by this situation & how it was/is being handled. We are going to pray about this; we all need to very seriously pray about this and ask God to lead us and show us the real Truth of the matter."
LCG members have suffered a number of significant hits since the terrible events in Wisconsin. Cannibalism by the Pack cult must be a continuing worry. The church struggles to hold its hardline identity against the Armstrong lunatics who now crowd it out on the fringes. With this latest crisis the agony is visible for all to see. The timing has also been an issue with nothing being released till after last week's services, and a whole week for things to fester before the members can gather for "damage control." Did Meredith really believe his ministerial emails wouldn't leak like a sieve?
Which raises the question, has Rod Meredith, now well past his prime, got what it takes to ride the tempest out, or is this the storm that will see the lifeboats launched? One thing seems certain, this is neither a robust nor an optimistic fellowship, and the fumbling of the Bryce affair is the last thing it needed at the moment.
44 comments:
This morning I went on the lcg.org and the lcg member site & there were then still sermons by Mr. Charles Bryce on these websites; tonight I did a search and they are already wiped out.
Apparently not. As of this moment, there are still at least two Charles Bryce sermons on lcg.org:
http://www.lcg.org/cgi-bin/lcg/sermons/lcg-sermons.cgi?category=Sermon1&item=1126883438
http://www.lcg.org/cgi-bin/lcg/sermons/lcg-sermons.cgi?category=Sermon1&item=1126883852
Those sermons are from 2004, maybe they were left on by mistake, if the person who deleted the others got lazy and didn't finish the job.
There's also still a sermon there by SYD HULL !
http://www.lcg.org/cgi-bin/lcg/sermons/lcg-sermons.cgi?category=Sermon1&item=1126882545
Wonder who decided to keep THAT ONE online!
Could you post a link to the discussion board you're referring to? I've been surprised at how few LCG members/sympathizers are talking about recent events, but maybe I've just been looking in the wrong place.
What is truly amazing, or at least a surprise, is that LCG moved that quick to take Bryce's sermons off the official site.
The reason i am surprised is that it took them over 4 months after they were told about it to remove the mistake about Christ's ressurrection being on a Sunday.
I was told that the wheels move very slowly out there in LCG land and even a big mistake takes lots of time to take off.
By the way the comment about Sunday and the Ressurrection come from Spanky's booklet on "Which Day is the Christian Sabbath?" in which after he writes the aforementioned , Spanky proves by that, which day to keep (Sunday).
For any doubters, just find your old printed copy before the web change to see this. Then ask why it took so many months to change that. And that is just the tip of the iceberg.
rod 2
Yes, please post a link to the discussion board you refer to.
(Off Topic)
The SS Cuba going down in England, circa 1945?
Today being Pearl Harbor Day in the US, my eyes froze on the date and photo. Somehow this whole silly mess just faded into the background static. Grown adults,
church leaders all, engaging in mind-numbing postering.
My father was a combat veteran of WWII (Battle of the Bulge). He often joked about the WCOG needing helicopter shuttles for our longish commutes to services.
"... you have 8 churches within 1 mile of your house.. why do you need to travel 50 miles to East Overshoe? ..isn't God everywhere? (LOL)..."
sigh
lj
Concerning Bryce Clark's comment that there are no branches, other churches, in God's Church. That is, only the Living Church of God is God's church.
If indeed he is in the process of starting his own church, one must assume he now believes that his church is the only church of God.
(all 50 that go with him)
It is indeed true, unfortunately, there are far too many "elders" that have extremely immature positions on certain issues.
All part of the plan of God and it illustrates why learning HOW TO THINK is a big part of transforming, renewing our minds.
And yes, again unfortunately, teaching members how to think is sadly lacking in the Church of God.
That lack, from my perspective, is not part of what God had in mind. It is simply a part of the lack of leadership in the Church. This very important part of leadership IS there in some sectors.
Incidentally, teaching how to think is not a part of education in our schools either, at least in the US.
Many reasons why people are not taught how to think. But right now I can't think of any.(smile)
Jim
One of the main things that has caused a lot of problems hasn't been mentioned except briefly. Someone wrote that at the council of elders meeeting in LCG a problem was brought up about allowing a member to work on the Sabbath in MS. Actually the person is a member in Birmingham, AL but did the work in MS. There was a lot of mistreatment of some members for questioning this. I understand that this mistreatment is still going on.
The member posting was sent without a source link. I'll see if I can track it down. I'm guessing "original WCG", but that's just a stab.
This was the Situation Concerning Working On The Sabbath in LCG In the Birmingham Al Area. Dixie is correct in what they are saying. Their is still people being punished for standing up for the truth. This is a long story, but it shows how this progresses and helps you to see how LCG feels about working on the sabbath.
It started around the first of May 2006 at Sabbath Services. Some members overheard our Pastor and his son-in-law talking about him having to working on the sabbath. His son-in-law spoke up and asked him how many people he had told. Some members wanted a clarification about what was heard and the Deacon was asked if he would ask the minister if his son-in-law was working on the Sabbath and if he, the pastor, was approving this. The Deacon sent an email to inquire about the situation.
A few days later The Pastor called our Deacon and told him that he had talked to his son-in-law and found out that he was working on the Sabbath. He said that his son-in-law received a letter stating for him to work or else, or something to that effect. Our Pastor said that, after getting all the facts from his son-in-law, he and a few other ministers that knew about it had agreed that it was all right for his son-in-law to work on the Sabbath. That it was a life and death matter and the church allows for an ox in the ditch.
This was about nine months after Katrina had hit the Mississippi, Alabama, and Louisiana states and people were surviving just fine, it couldn't be a life and death matter so our our Pastor was asked about this. He called the Deacon and told him that it was a life and death matter and if they didn't work on the Sabbath and get the generators fixed, that people in nursing homes and hospitals would suffer greatly and might even die.(even though they had backup generators) He said it was the two main generators. (He must have been mistaken or something) It was small generators that are only used when there is a greater demand for electricity mainly in the summer months. This is in the Southern Company's report on the web.
He told us that his son-in-law has such an expertise that hardly anyone else could do what he was doing and they had to have him. He said his son-in-law wasn't doing manual labor--he wasn't climbing poles and stringing wires--he was working in the office. We told him, that wasn't what the Bible said about working on the Sabbath. He said that when the Bible was written, that they(I guess he meant God here since he wrote the 10 commandments) didn't know about all the technical things that we have today and that other decisions have to be made today concerning the Sabbath and more will have to be made in the future. He also said that some other ministers were in agreement with what his son-in-law was doing.
Our Pastor and his wife visited with our Deacon and his wife. Our Pastor said that there are several scriptures in the Bible that have to do with the Sabbath and they show that what his Son-in-law did is according to scripture. He used the example of the disciples plucking ears of grain and eating it on the Sabbath. Said they were working. He used the example of Jesus healing on the Sabbath. Also he used the example of the ox in the ditch. The Deacon told him that no ox was in the ditch. He said that there might be if those generators weren't fixed in May or something to that effect. He said again that they were the main generators and that if they weren't fixed before the summer season, the south might see the greatest black out that it had ever seen and that people would suffer and perhaps even die. [It appears he is saying it is ok to fix the fence on the sabbath so the Ox don't get out] He talked again as if the company just had to have his son-in-law because of his expertise (Which later we found out wasn’t true, according to his son-in-law who himself stated it was not a life and death situation and he went because he could do the job faster). Our Pastor goes on to say that in the 20th century we have much bigger oxen and must bigger ditches. He said that the system was limping--didn't have all the generating capacity up and it was teetering on the verge of going back down. (The company has their reports on the web. That is not what they described.) He said that you don't wait until the power is down and then say the ox is in the ditch. Our Pastor stated that it was an emergency. When he was told, that you can't see that in the Bible and he replied "Power Company isn't in the Bible."
Our Pastor sent in a report to headquarters; concerning the situation, but it didn't match what his son-in-law had told someone else.
Later our Pastor and Mr. Morris (elder in Montgomery) met with Doug in Jasper, Al. They gave him the same spill that we had already been receiving. No matter what Doug said, it made no difference. Their minds were made up before they got there. They removed Doug from the sermonette list and the song directing list. The official reason given was he hadn't been attending holy day services and was setting a bad example. Doug and his wife, hadn't attended holy day services for quite some times because it is a six hour round trip for them to attend--then sit through two services. They were very tired physically and mentally when they did get back home. Plus, his wife has cancer and other health problems. Nothing had been done about this until this situation came up about his Son-in-law. Then all of a sudden Doug was told he couldn't give sermonettes and direct singing. This is a loss to the B'ham congregation.
You can read more about this at: http://www.poorboycomputers.com/ponder.html
Later, He said that his report that he sent to headquarters about his son-in-law working on the Sabbath had been reviewed by Mr. Meredith and that Mr. Meredith and nine other ministers, three of them on the Council of Elders, agreed that what his son-in-law did was his call and that it was over. Nothing was said about our Pastor’s, nor Mr. Morris', part and teachings in all this, or of anything else. We were simply told it was over. I guess they under estimated God.
I know this will come as quite a shock for the COG's and sabbath, but Jesus was not mightly pro Sabbath either in any case such as this. When he is quoted as saying, "the sabbath was made for man and not man for the sabbath...therefore, the son of man is Lord, even of the Sabbath" he said this.
"the sabbath was made for humans and not humans for the sabbath...therefore, humans (son of man.. and don't get all misty eyed about the son of man being just Jesus in this context, unless you understand it means humans) take precidence over the sabbath."
There is not a Bible answer for most practical everyday needs and circumstances. There does not have to be. You don't check your brain or common sense at the door of church, well some do, and you don't need to hunt up a minister or some judgemental, not in your shoes memeber to ask what to do. The COG was never good at letting humans in the group make their own decisions without judgement and letting them be memebers no matter their personal choices on matters important to them. There is group think, but no personal thinking.
It is this straining at gnats, minding other's business and swallowing herds of camels that makes practical people shake their heads at these people.
Sermons on cogl.org are seldom any except for those from HQ. If you are looking for sermons by Mr. Bryce on cogl.org, they would be from his last visit when/if he had an opportunity to speak. You should get ALL your facts right before defaming people and organizations.
Weekly sermons from local congregations are requested to NOT be posted on local/regional websites.
I love how those on here like to post but they post incorrect information. Ah... the way of the world I see. So to help all of you out.... Mr. Bryce's sermons and bible studies are infact still on the Living website. Good job for posting incorrect information! Oh and this is as of 12-7-06 at 4:11 pm.
It seems that LCG is in a bad spot here. The hardliners (I think RM used the word "stricter brethren") will start their own group or go with RCG. Those that are not hardliners will worry and pray, but I think they will see that there is not much difference between LCG and UCG or some local splinter. Once their allegiance to RM goes, there will be nothing to keep them in LCG, except if they like their local minister and brethren.
It reminds me of Princess Leia talking to Darth Vader in Star Wars - "The more your tighten your grip the more star systems (ministers/brethern) will slip through your fingers."
Interesting. Last night only two of Bryce's sermon's were on cogl.org. Now there are at least 15 to 20. Give them time...they are slow as slugs when it comes to certain things. They'll be gone soon enough.
Gavin,
Amidst these gravid and serious proceedings let us hopefully add a touch of seasonal LEVI-TY.
One "Fa" and eight "La"s are to follow each line.
Deck The Halls With Boughs of Folly
Deck the halls with boughs of folly,
And drink down a glass of bolly.
Now put on your gay apparel.
And drink from the hogshead barrel.
Dance around in your pyjamas
At this time of Semiramis.
Dance in any sort of weather,
But not in the ALTOGETHER.
Charge your jugs and empty glasses,
And ensure you make no passes.
Avoid becoming hypocritic,
Go and get blind paralytic.
Dance around,be ever jolly,
'Neath the mistletoe and holly.
Let no one become a stand-in,
Fling around in gay abandon.
Spritely move in strict precision,
Despite headache and double vision.
Enjoy yourself this very Christmas
Even though you have strabismus.
Though dancing is more frenetic
You will feel less energetic.
Avoid, indeed, that glass of whisky
That makes the season pretty risky.
Have your fun and have your frolics,
But don't become gross alcoholics.
Christmas time can sure be scary,
Go lightly on the port and sherry.
Jorgheinz
AN UN-GERMAN XMAS
Stealer narked,high liquor narked,
Alles schlaeft einsam Wacht.
Newer das Trouter des highlickin' Paar,
Holder car nabber in lockingen Haar,
Sh-laugh in hymn liquor rue.
Wunderbar.
Jorgheinz
First, the message from the LCG member was sourced from the Yahoo! group Original WCG. In fact, there seems to have been quite a lively discussion over there on this topic. The poster explicitly identified herself as an LCG member. I haven't checked that group in months, but it seems some of these very conservative brethren keep tabs on the blog.
Second, I checked cogl.org sermons twice today, all 12 pages of them, going back up to 6 years. There is nothing available now from Charles Bryce -- although, surprisingly, Syd Hull still has something up. The Stalinist purge seems to have been quite real, despite what one of the "anonymous" commentators maintained.
I've read Mr. Bryce's letter that is linked to this site, and I just can't see why he so upset. To those people who follow the traditional teachings of "Armstrongism" (what Mr. Bryce states he is wanting to get back to) well, the LCG, is and has been doing just that. In my opinion, we are doing a fantastic job of "Armstrongism" - preaching the good news to all the world about God's soon coming kingdom and government, and the return of Jesus Christ to be King of kings over that government, advocating the keeping of all ten of the commandments (including the 7th day Sabbath), observing the 7 annual holy days, tithing (1, 2, 3), clean foods, etc. Simply go to LCGs website and take a good look at our Statement of Beliefs -"Armstrongism" (I don't particularly agree with or care for that term, but I use it only to identify my subject with the discussion at hand) to the tee. So what's the problem, Mr. Bryce? In my opinion, the issues he is leaving the LCG over are important in some ways, yet are not as serious as he states them to be. But they are also superficial in many ways when compared to the big picture of why we do what we do, our commission given to us by Jesus Christ: preaching the very good news about the soon coming KOG and the return of Jesus Christ to the world, because we truly love mankind and want to reach out to our brothers in anyway. We really want to show them that they can live a better way of life today and that way of life will truly allow them to have happiness, joy and peace. Whats wrong with wanting to preach that? Jesus Christ preached that as well. And when a respected and needed evangelist like Mr. Bryce leaves over such superficial issues that even Mr. Armstrong switched back and forth on several times, what good can it bring to the Work of Jesus Christ? Mr. Bryce and Mr. Solomons leaving the LCG over such ticky tack issues is such a waste. I've heard many sermons by both, and truly appreciate their messages. But I belive they are wrong on these points, and I will stick with the LCG because they are doing a truly worldwide, international, global work - what we have been commissioned to do by our Elder Brother and Saviour Jesus Christ.
WEB70,
You speak of LCG teaching the ten commandments, but have you noticed how Bryce and Meredith both have problems with one of them "thou shall not bear false witness"?
Or how about "no other gods before the true God", Meredith and Bryce seem to me to worship HWA. Just witness how Meredith always gushes about HWA being a father to him.
On the adultery commandment Meredith has glossed over all of Christ's commands on the subject and just reverts back to Moses, even though Christ himself used Moses example of how NOT to understand Divorce and re-marriage and who commits adultery (ala HWA and Ramona's marriage which should have been condemned by any of those Council of Elders during that time). Of course Bryce goes on and sets that straight about the church being "God" driven not "Christ", in his recent letter about his departure.
When i left LCG, it took six months before i could get the brain washing kicked out of my system, so i could read and study the bible for what it really says, not the garbage and baggage "armstrongism" held sway over me for over 30 years.
I now know with certainty that HWA and his ways were wrong on so many counts. I can see the hypocrasy and lies and deception now clearly. I can see that the "here a little" approach to bible study the Cog's have used to shore up their belief system was a crock. Anyone with that mind set can twist scripture to say whatever they wish. And HWA and his lackeys have done just that over the years to hold sway over the poor misguided members who really believe they must sacrifice all for that "last push" and the "gun lap" mentality.
If anyone would just listen to these deceivers they may just realize how contradictory they are in "predicting" the end time.
They in their misunderstanding of the calendar, have God giving the Oracles to the Jews. Since they are so adament about all of this, the end must not come for over 200 more years, since this in the Jewish time fram is 5766, which leaves 234 more years until the 6000 years are up. HWA and Hoeh and company even framed it such in the "Introduction to the Hebrew Calendar" which along with "Spiers Comprehensive Hebrew calendar" are the standards the COG's use. Read the whole thing and you will see the COG's have not even kept Passover, Night to be Much Observed, or even the !st Day of Unleavened Bread on the right time several years ago.
I have not found ONE single COG that will abide by the source information they base their calendar belief on.
They all err so bad because of their being deceived into "a little here, a little there" approach.
So even in print, easy to check up on, Spanky and his gang keep pumping all for more money in getting the so called work done, all the while knowing they err.
I and others have shown them over the years the errors and they all seem to just go along with the same old formula, without realizing that the brethren (A.K.A. dumb sheep) are getting smarter. Remember the pray and pay mentality?
Even in Spanky's feast Video he states a different counting method for the wavesheaf and Unleavened Bread. Not only can he not get on the same track as the church is in observance, but he always says it wrong. When i asked about this years ago, i was told that "he remembers the old ways of doing it, not the changes made in 1974 and he does not read the bible, but in these passages does it by memory", a very failed one at that.
If God is not the author of confusion, and Satan is, then who do these COG leaders follow when they deceive, confuse, lie etc?
That is why Gary , Gavin and others do such a great service to everyone "who has an ear, to hear, and an eye to see".
I now know why so very many indoctrinated in "armstrongism" for so very long, when they finally see the "light", end up either totally turned off by organized churches, or even not believing anything anymore.
rod 2
The Solomon's are a most wonderful family, and most if not all who know them think so. We members , to one degree or another are all caught up in this situation and grieve.
Living Church of God is NOT a sinking ship!
In spite of the problems, trials, and weaknesses that may exist in Living Church of God, that Church is strong in many ways compared to the other Churches of God. They are the only Church of God I know of that is bringing in a significant number of new members into the Church through their TV program and magazine. This is a fruit that testifies to the effectiveness of their efforts to preach the gospel to the world.
I think there may be a process of separation going on. An issue in the Church of God since Mr. Armstrong's death is, "Is it right to change doctrine taught by Herbert W. Armstrong?" Many say no, yet Mr. Armstrong changed his own doctrines and taught the Church to be corrected by and to learn new knowledge from the Bible. So for those who respect Herbert W. Armstrong and believe God has done a good work through him, the question is, which is the weightier matter of his teachings? The details of the doctrines that he taught at the end of his life, or the principle that we must be willing to change doctrine to be corrected by the Bible and to grow in grace and knowledge, which he taught by word and by his example?
When Mr. Tkach changed doctrine in Worldwide, a separation began. Those who believed Church authority first followed Mr. Tkach's teachings and stayed in Worldwide. Those who followed the Bible or just didn't want to change left and formed new groups. But those who left and became part of LCG did not all do so for the same reason. Some stayed with Mr. Armstrong's teaching because they proved it for themselves from the Bible, while others stayed with his teaching because they didn't want to change anything they believed.
So within Living Church of God are members who are willing to follow the Bible, even if it means changing Herbert W. Armstrong's doctrines, and also members who do not want to change anything that Mr. Armstrong taught, period.
Some of those who do not want to change the details of anything Mr. Armstrong taught have been leaving to join PCG or RCG, and I think more may leave to join with Charles Bryce. Thus, those whose loyalties are to the details of doctrines taught by Herbert W. Armstrong at the end of his life are being separated out of LCG, while most of those who follow the example and teaching of Mr. Armstrong that we must be willing to make doctrinal changes and be corrected by the Bible will stay. They will stay because they see the positive fruits of LCG's program to preach the gospel to the public, and they will continue to support that, in spite of the problems and trials in LCG right now.
And when a respected and needed evangelist like Mr. Bryce leaves over such superficial issues that even Mr. Armstrong switched back and forth on several times, what good can it bring to the Work of Jesus Christ?
Ah, but what about the superficial issues that Mr. Armstrong didn't switch back and forth on several times?
For example, take Meredith's most recent modification, perhaps the straw that broke the camel's back. For the past month or so, he's been emphasizing that it's okay to invite a new person to church services even if they don't have their entire lives straight first. You don't have to tell a guy to cut his hair or take off his earrings or cover his tattoos or stop smoking before he comes in and warms a seat -- after a couple of weeks, he'll pick up on the fact that we all wear nicer clothes and have conservative hairstyles and he'll follow suit. If he doesn't, don't take it upon yourself to bash him over the head with 1 Corinthians 11:14. That's the pastor's job. And of course the same idea goes for women visiting for the first time.
A superficial issue? Yes, I agree -- and in saying this, Meredith relaxes an unnecessary burden. But the fact that he's had to clarify and clarify and clarify again that he's not saying it's okay to smoke or have tattoos or show your navel in church tells us that this superficial issue is a big deal to some. Why? Because it's not the way Herbert W. Armstrong ran the store.
Stop and remember, web70. For Herbert W. Armstrong, even superficial issues were matters of salvation. Don't believe me? Read Truth About Makeup and you'll find that lipstick would get you into the Lake of Fire back then. Read other literature from the good ol' days. We were told that if a church deviates from true biblical doctrine by even one-tenth of a percent, it is not the true Church of God -- and we were told this in italics and in UPPER CASE.
That's why Bryce and others are so worked up. In their view, their own salvation is at stake!
Libro's point is most cogent and right on target. The legacy of the COG organization that we all came from was quite close to what Christ condemned the Pharisees for when they were counting an exact tenth of minute seeds but were missing the boat with regard to the big picture of what God and Christ were/are about.
I think the fact that there are so many COG organizations makes it very clear how much private and personal disparity there was within the original church organization.
Those of us who've remained with a COG group have chosen the organization that most closely reflects our understanding of God and Christ and the way They have given us in the Bible.
No human or human organization is without its faults. Not a one of us is without faults. So to deify a human and/or an organization is breaking both the 1st and 2nd commandments.
When in doubt, go to the authority - God's word - instead of making what another *dustball*, which each of us is, says "gospel." That indeed is preaching a gospel other than the one Christ preached.
It saddens me to think that an individual would believe that his or her salvation (which is in fact a gift we don't and can't earn) hinges on "things," and not the way that comes from God's spirit transforming the heart, soul, and mind.
"Things" are what Satan focuses on too - and that's where he can always get us because he knows our "things" weaknesses far better than we do.
God and Christ focus on the big picture: "relationships." And that area is the area we as humans are weakest in and fail miserably in. Church history has borne that out and unfortunately, as the latest - but sadly, not last - ego-centered and finger-pointing crossfire this week shows, it looks like it will continue until Christ's return.
Lets see ... first we read on Gavin's AW site that CB is the heir apparent. Then CB is shipped of to Texas after supposedly "begging" RM for months to let him go home .
Now we are being told that CB was actually demoted and that he wants to start his own church.
Hmm ... we have the letters directly from CB himself. There is nothing in there to indicate he is starting his own church.
i guess this is a sad time for the church of god i feel, i have not had the opportunity to read about mr. bryce's reasons for leaving. i hope we can all pray for each other ... time is running out
If I really wanted to see a continual series of splits, I would have joined a bowling league.
God and Christ focus on the big picture: "relationships."
That is the most protestant "Jesus Speak" I've ever heard.
What bible is that from?
Rev 21:7
"he who overcomes inherits all things"
it's not he who works on his relationship skills inherits all things
1 John 5:3
"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments"
Yes, we do have to focus on "things"... like obeying God's Law and Commandments
We all wish salvation had no requirements...but that's not what the bible says. Apparently YOU need to go back to God's word...you missed the part in the New Testament about overcoming and keeping the commandments.
What a convenient version of Grace so many have. Just because we can't earn grace doesn't mean we can sit idly by without doing something!
Waiting for Jesus to enter our hearts, while we work on relationships skills isn't going to cut it. And deep down you know it.
If God's focus is not on relationships, then why do the first four commandments deal with our relationship with him, and the other six on our relationship with others?
You're obviously a good spinmeister, because you are spinning that one right out of orbit.
"Rev 21:7
'he who overcomes inherits all things'
it's not he who works on his relationship skills inherits all things"
We're not talking about pop psych relationship skills here. Read the words I said, not the words you think I said.
We're talking about hard work - "works" - and, yes, that means overcoming. What do we have to overcome?
Wearing makeup? Wearing or not wearing a tie to church? Making sure the rented building we meet in doesn't have an Xmas tree in the lobby? Our hair length? Our jewelry selection or lack thereof?
No. Those are "things" and they're all superficial. Since you like to quote Paul, you might want to go back and read what he says about our relationship with God and others as a whole instead of picking and choosing - like the mainstream Protestants you disdain - to try to say someone you don't know and have read only 150 words or so of in your life is espousing the Protestant view of grace.
Look at what's been written here this week. This is what we have to overcome.
There is hate (Ex. 10:13 & Matt. 5:21-25), there is lying (Ex. 20:16), and both having another god and idolatry are here: people worshipping themselves and people worshipping another person. I don't see God anywhere in all of this.
Oh, and unless you're one of those people who think the OT is no longer relevant, if you really don't think God has much interest in our relationship to Him and to others, you might want to go back and reread the chapters after Exodus 20, where The Word is very specific about relationships and the consequences of not showing love to your neighbor. You might also want to reread Isaiah because He also has a lot to say there about us not having a right relationship with him.
If you don't think relationships are important, then I can only assume that you're all alone in this world: no job (in which we're commanded to obey God even when no one else does and we're spitefully used) and no family or church (two biggest testing areas because these are the people we're closest to and we all struggle).
All the "things" you do are not going to save you. You're a sinner. So am I. But we are in training for the Kingdom. And it's what's inside - the very way we think, we relate, we ARE that has to be changed before God can give us any other responsibility. It's the "heart of flesh" that Isaiah talks about that has to be yielded to God, not self-willed, not "I know it all," not arrogant and superior.
Otherwise, God's got a bunch of Satans (the big "I") that He won't use.
Gavin,
It is interesting to note a recurrent theme through these blogs.DEIFICATION of HWA,especially in his defence. Let's face it,he is not there yet.Canonisation takes quite a time and HWA is probably not on the fast track.
They celebrate him as a prophet yet he stuffed up badly in 1972.There should have been a MASS EXODUS at that stage.But mendacity prevailed and we fell for it.
And still today these shysters and cons peddle the same old snake oil which perhaps one day they might get to swallow.
And still the unwary,the blind,the vulnerable and the stupid hang on every word these yobbos say.
Ah well, it's their money they want to spend,propping up lavish lifestyles.
Ah well, back to my cave in Petra.
Jorghainz
Once again we are being subjected to yet another power trip by another "evangelist" going off the wall. How many times do we have to endure this kind of behavior by those sworn and appointed to lead the flock? I have always found it interesting that the men were more than willing to require women to refrain from using makeup when at the same time endorsing the use of toupees by those men in strategic positions in the ministry.
At every turn we see men assuming that if they demand a certain behavior by women, all will be well in the church and yet, is that the reality?
Behavior is established by example and NOT the mandates of men who have forgotten their charge. Succumbing to the ploys of Satan is nothing new...it is only certain for those who forget the lessons of history who are bound to relive it.
With all that is going on in the world, why would makeup and earrings be a point of issue. The thought of these issues taking priority boggles the mind.
When will the ministry EVER learn the magnitude of their calling and learn that servant leadership is not mandating behavior that has NOTHING to do with eternal life.
The other day I criticized someone for stating that Mr. Bryce's material had been removed. At that time I had looked and his sermons and bible study on Proverbs were still present.
Now, my apologies. ALL of Mr. Bryce's sermons and bible studies have been removed!
This is irrational and hard to believe. By extension of a policy such as this, Ross Jutsums songs would not be in the LCG hymnal. But they ARE in the LCG hymnal because those songs are in agreement with LCG beliefs and doctrinal interpretations.
Having heard Mr. Bryce speak MANY times, 100% of LCG members would tell you that he never stated things contrary to LCG's teachings and beliefs. So, why this decision and by whom?
I am sorry to say, but it boggles the mind to think that Christ would have acted in the same manner. I am positive that He would not banish those teachings just because the person in question wasn't attending with the same group.
Have the doctrines, that Mr. Bryce taught while with LCG, changed? If so, then the LCG doctrines have changed because Mr. Bryce only TAUGHT the doctrines agreed to by LCG.
This is action by LCG is disturbing to say the least.
Hello Anonymous,
Thank you for being big enough to admit your mistake. Yes, it is irrational. Yet for many of us, it's not hard to believe.
You find it hard to believe, because this is the first time you've looked upon something like this and actually seen. For others, this is simply yet another round in a never-ending story. It makes me feel old sometimes.
You find it disturbing. Good. So do I. Yet I'm still with LCG. Would you like to know why?
Because even though I no longer have faith in LCG as an organization or Rod Meredith as a person, I still believe in God. I've experienced His influence in my life. He's real. And as nearly as I can tell from my limited ability to figure it all out, He prefers Saturday as the day of special worship. And for the time being, my local LCG congregation fills my need for fellowship, plus the local pastor doesn't rule with a heavy hand.
But now you find that leaders you've respected for years may not be all they seem. I know you have a lot to think about right now. Don't worry if you never figure it all out. The God I've come to know expects me to do the best I can in everything I do, but if the best I can isn't good enough -- and let's face it, it never is -- He will take up the slack. That's trust. It's the kind of faith Abraham had. More than anything, that's what God looks for in you and me. If you can learn to walk through your time of uncertainty hand in hand with the Almighty, then you'll learn everything He expects you to. Don't worry -- it'll take the rest of your life.
Oh, and if someday you feel He's leading you by the hand right out of LCG, then take a deep breath and go with Him. If you are led by His Spirit, then you are part of His Church -- and no amount of preaching to the contrary can change that.
Hope this helps.
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Libro, could you pour a little syrup on that sweet slimy mess you just spewed out! Who asked YOU to be my priest? I didn't.
Just read the Bible to yourself and quit trying to impress others.
Yuk, phooie, splaaa...
Lol... it was a bit maudlin, wasn't it? Okay, I deserve it -- and thanks for the good humor.
I'll just climb out of my confession booth now, and grab a mop to clean up the, uh, splaaa...
I thought that libro said it quite nicely. I guess if you don't want to hear what's written in the Bible because you didn't say it yourself, then that's a problem all its own.
Yes RCM is now well past his prime. His goal now is not the gospel but to achieve a higher income then his son. Watch and wait as they will ask for more income.
Mr. Grace has posted more information concerning the sabbath issue in LCG on his site.
http://www.poorboycomputers.com/ponder.html
LIVING CHURCH OF GOD MEMBERS ARE IN TRAINING NOW, AS THE CALLED OUT ONES FROM THIS PERVERTED WORLD.WE WILL SOON BE RULING UNDER THE AUTHORITY OF OUR SOON COMING KING, THE KING OF KINGS. INFACT NO ONE OTHER THAN THE LIVING JESUS CHRIST SHOULD BE CALLED KING.ALL WHO FAIL TO REPENT FOR THE BLATANT LIES AND HATEFUL COMMENTS WILL BE CONDEMNED BY THE RIGHTEOUS JUDGE. SUNDAY KEEPERS AND THE SABBATH BREAKERS WILL BE TAUGHT THE RIGHT WAY TO LIVE BY THOSE GOD HAS CALLED INTO HIS ETERNAL GLORY. DONT LET A STUPID INTERNET COMMENT COME EVEN CLOSE TO YOUR CROWN WHICH IS RESERVED IN HEAVEN FOR YOU. HOLD FAST TO THAT WHICH IS GOOD. AND CLING TO THE SOURCE' GOD.
LCG in trouble? Ha. Who are you people?
I just recently enjoyed the best Feast of my 30 year CoG experience with LCG in New Braunfels, Tx. Y'all need to get a life. It seems like you are way too anxious to find bad news. LCG is growing amazingly fast with more inquiries than they/we can keep up with. Who are you people?
1 Tim 5:13
13 And besides they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house, and not only idle but also gossips and busybodies, saying things which they ought not.
Prov 6:16&19
16 These six things the LORD hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him...19 A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren.
if you think Paul only meant women and that this is taken out of context, then just think of your selves as gossiping women sowing discord among brethren
Hopeful any godly women that read this last comment will not have taken offense to my tone
You all sound like a bunch of whining babies. This is the problem with the COG's. You all stay so wrapped up in what everyone ELSE is doing wrong that you never look in the mirror. Maybe LCG should allow make-up, you know so that every gossiping woman out there would spend a little more time focusing on how to 'correct' themselves. Even if the 'correcting' method mentioned makes some look like whores, you know what I mean. Anyway, stop worrying about what everyone else is doing and remember that your gossiping isn't any more Holy than what you think of as "wrong" actions of others. Your meddling is sickening.
Roderick C. Meredith, a faithful servant of God, as was Herbert W. Armstrong, continues to chout out the warnings to the world in these, the end-times. All the signs are clearly to be seen by those whose eyes are opened and have understanding. Under the stewardship of Roderick C. Meredith and the Council of Elders, Jesus Christ - the eternal head, the chief cornerstone of the true Church, the eternal rock on which she is built, guides the faithful in doing the will of the Father. The true weekly Sabbath - the seventh day of the week - and all the Holy Days commanded to be kept FOREVER are being kept by those who are in the Living Church of God.
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