From Bob Thiel's latest upload:While I normally do not post corrections here to what blog posters say about the Living Church of God or me, today I thought I would comment on two I noted yesterday from a particular ”author” at a site that seems to bash the COGs (and no, not Gavin Rumney’s site this time).
Well, there's another nail in my reputation. But more interesting is the fact that Bob doesn't name the site he's taken umbrage at. Curious.
Anyway, to be fair to Bob, he's entitled to set the record straight. Here's what he says (in part):
I do have a Ph.D. and it is from the Union Institute & University. And Union is regionally accredited (the highest accepted accrediting standard in the United States for universities and colleges). I also have a Master of Science degree from the University of Southern California (which, of course, is also regionally accredited). I never was a student at Ambassador College. So to post that my academic credentials are from there is false.
And now it's my turn to set the record straight. I'm not "anti-COG" as such. A quick perusal of the recent posting on COG7 demonstrates that (or at least I'd have thought so). Or a check on what I've written about people like Pam Dewey. No Bob, not so much anti-COG as highly selective. Anti-hierarchic? Yes. Anti-manipulation? I hope so! Anti-junk theology? Guilty as charged. Anti-BI? Indubitably. I'd rather put it positively though: pro-critical thinking, pro-accountability...
It's just my opinion of course, but LCG appears to be hierarchic, manipulative and theologically challenged. But everything is relative, and compared to some other sects the Meredith faction is all sweetness and light.
Perhaps Bob himself might be construed as "anti-COG" for his bashing of all COG communities - other than LCG.
Caught by the camera is Bob in the company of the illustrious Dr Meredith (who, unlike Bob, has a shonky doctorate from you-know-where).
75 comments:
The Golden Gloves third in line to the Apostle appears to have gained thirty extra lbs of ministerial lard (fasting?)around his roly-poly waist.
It won't be much longer now!
Oh, Lordy!
That Roderick fella plain creeps me out.
Are there actually nut-cases who would like to stand next to him?
Bob confirms:
>>>I do have a Ph.D. and it is from the Union Institute & University. And Union is regionally accredited (the highest accepted accrediting standard in the United States for universities and colleges). I also have a Master of Science degree from the University of Southern California (which, of course, is also regionally accredited).<<<
My response to that is, so what?
Academic qualifications are only a means to an end! They may get one a well paid job, for pretending to know things that one really doesn't understand, especially if the qualification is underpinned by one or many of the speculative theories floating around in the so-called august institutions of learning. Yale!s on line Ph.d in OT studies is a classic example, to be avoided like the plague!
However, the more important issue is, how can Bod continue to believe and promote doctrines on his web site, that are blatantly at odds with the teaching of the bible, and refuses to respond when challenged on the veracity of them?
Bod? Tom, your typos are as bad as Bob's.
As is your information. Yale doesn't offer an online Ph.D in Old Testament. It does offer an online course at undergraduate level - but not for credit.
Boo boos like these don't exactly inspire confidence in your understandings.
Ned
A M.Sc who believes in creationism?
A Ph.D who can't spell, proof read or use grammar?
What does this say about the standard of programs at American universities? When I studied for a mere bachelor's degree, I got marked down for misspelling, and if I cited outdated references (as Bob does) I'd be knocked back even further.
I guess God really does look after Bob, because the only way I can explain how he earned those degrees is by a miracle!
Gavin said....
"But more interesting is the fact that Bob doesn't name the site he's taken umbrage at. Curious."
Yes, I am also curious and ready to learn from any man, web or blog site or whatever. Particularly as I recently heard a rumour that the crucifixion was on a Thursday!
"Particularly as I recently heard a rumour that the crucifixion was on a Thursday!"
The crucifixion of the Sun is always on the Spring Equinox at the intersection of the Ecliptic and Celestial Equator when Sun rises due east.
Once "as above so below" kicked in with humans, it became Easter but moved a bit away from it to ease the suspicious origins and keep it away from Passover. Ecclesiastical rules determine the Christian Holyday, not actual events however they did or did not occur.
Easter is a calculated concoction of rules that began at Nicea to insure conformity by the wee folk, and not preserve a historical event.
Passover is based on a cultic history that probably never happened in fact. There is no evidence of an Exodus from Egypt of Biblical proportions.
"Once upon a time, there was a Jewish Lamb.
Along came the Church and turned it into Ham.
The Ham rules the world and wants us all to be.
Like little piggies happy, snorting out our glee
But then some little piggies looked up into the sky
And realized for themselves, it was the SUN that was to die.
It was the SUN announced by Virgo at Xmas time they learned
And for this little knowledge
They got their pork butts burned.
So please don't tell the gentiles, and please don't tell the Jews
The story of the Sun through 12 is really the Good News.
Aaaaaaaa-meeeeeeeeeennnnnnnn. :)
Tis the season...
All Christians are Sun worshippers at heart whether they know it or not :)
Actually, Rod Meredith isn't really that tall, especially now that he stoops as many elderly people do.
So either Dr. Bob is on his knees next to him or...
And the Thursday crucifixion idea is nothing new. It's been around at least as long as the Wednesday idea. Both are a result of the fact that you just can't fit those three nights between Friday afternoon and Sunday morning...
Libro
Some study or other showed that it takes a PhD 50 years to make back the money invested in the degree as opposed to say, an MBA -- so has it been worth it to Dr. Thiel, or does the lack of an AC education hamper him so badly that it has completely hamstrung him?
Say, speaking of calendars, is anyone keeping the Passover the evening of March 19th this year?
The "as above Easter occurs on the vernal equnox, Mar 20 2008 05:48 UT
The Ecclesiastical Easter occurs the first Sunday after the full moon that occurs next after the vernal equinox
Passover occurs depending on who you want to argue with (I don't miss those days!) and whether you use the synopic Gospels or John, where we find a Passover date war raging between Pharisees and Sadducees, Essenes or whoever had an opinion. It was a problem because, as we all remember, it futsed up the day one observed Pentecost.
The only non controversial dates are those of the, "as above" one year ministry of the sun through the 12 signs of the zodiac which exactly tells the Gospel story of the Son's "so below" life from cradle to grave and resurrection.
I believe the Bible has plenty of rules in place to keep the average believer from taking a look at the cycle and going..."hmmmmmmmm."
Ok ok...I PROMISE to not mention these things again this year, so help me Helios. :)
Ned said:
>>>Yale doesn't offer an online Ph.D in Old Testament. It does offer an online course at undergraduate level - but not for credit.<<
I stand corrected!
>>>Boo boos like these don't exactly inspire confidence in your understandings.<<<
"Understandings?" Ouch! Accuracy of information or facts, might have been the phrase you were groping for.
Dave Pack is blatantly anti-intellectual as a way to shore up his own beliefs. The godless university with professors who worship Satan is a common meme.
He brags about resisiting his mom's admonition to read Plato, Socrates and Aristotle, when he actually may have gotten a larger view if he had and never in his wildest dreams said the words "send it in."
He also dismisses Einstein because he had "wild hair."
While people will always be people, the put down of the intellect, the university and those who spend their lives looking for truth and not just "trying to disprove God so they don't have to obey him," is a sign of the insecurity that goes with the fear of being wrong about adopted religious anacronisms.
Remember, when someone tells you that you are only using human reasoning, ask them what kind they use? If they say, "God's", you have my permission to burst out laughing.
Well, well, well. We know Thiel is reading Robert McNally's discussion board on Rotten Ronnie, at least.
The remark to which "Doctor" Thielology For Dummies is referring to is the above link, and the comment Doctor Bob has a minor problem with would be mine, to wit:
"As for Weinland’s predictions being accurate in hindsight, that’s a tactic straight from the LCG playbook; Meredith was just vague enough that his apologist (who calls himself a “doctor”, but his degree is from the non-accredited and now defunct AC) now claims Meredith predicted 9/11."
All of which is true, except for the AC part....which I swear I read somewhere on the Net.
Not that I'm worried about lacking credibility in LCG's eyes; I've pretty much slammed most of the major splinters over at WW, and am (with the exception of my exposes of Ron&Co) mainly ecumenical in my CoG-bashing, on the whole.
So, no worries, Gavin DOCTOR Bob is not gunning for you.
Pardon me while I go print a retraction.
LOL check this out:
"(the comment about RC Meredith is not quite right, but that will take a longer explanation than I care to do here)"
"Not quite right"? You don't say Bob you don't say.....
I noticed from the picture that Mr. Rodders has "Kung-Fu Grip"
Has anyone contacted his HQ and asked how much in tithes or special offerings is required to get a Rodders action figure with Kung-Fu Grip?
And are the BI book, and wife-killing stick that click onto the hand sold separately?
Just a little journey to yester-year...
My mom had cancer and was invited to visit (Margee?), Rodders wife during a Feast. Mom had a good visit with her, and was impressed by her kindness.
When dad went to get mom and bring her back he encountered Rod, who laughed about his wife's cancer, and called it "only a skin condition"
Margee later died from it.
My "Doctorate" is from TRUCK MASTERS SCHOOL OF TRUCKING!
Infinitely more interesting and more useful than most PHDs!
I actually was a trucker for about a year when I was a kid. Great way to see the country, learn about people and "getting a world view".
Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA
Gold Gloves Champion "Rod Meredith" !!
LADIES AND GENTLEMAN...
The boxing card for this Friday Nite at the Pechanga Indian Casino Boxing ring...
Meredith vs. Tkach
Pack vs. Flurry
Weinland vs. Kilough
My picks,(if such a reality ever came true in the absolute physical sense)...
Meredith (as long as the knockout can come within the first two rounds because of endurance issues)
Pack (longer reach, taller, less drinking)
Weinland (Angry, Aggressive. Will win as long as he doesnt get too cocky and lets his guard down allowing for Kilough to "sneak in" and stealthly deliver a "crippling blow")
Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA .
I've met a number of people, in my lifetime, who had learning disabilities, yet pursued higher education. They went through backbreaking work to obtain their degrees, and sometimes have residual difficulty with different forms of communication, depending on the particular disability involved.
BB
Rod sat at my dining room table and cried like a baby when I mentioned the decanter was a gift from Margie. If you saw his second wife, you know he remarried his first.
Her loss was devestating to him personally. I have yet to hear Dave Pack even mention his wife post mortem. It's like it never happened.
Hm well, Pack is drinking his own Kool-Aid (hence the Clarion Call to the Sheeple sermon). Meredith, maybe not so much.
Spanky may preach the BI rhetoric and Armstrongism, but clearly he doesn't believe it, if he misses his "dearly" loved wife, instead of taking the Packatollah's view that they're going to see each other and be god as god is god and one big happy god family of the first resurrection.
Which is also why Weinland is not afraid of death, and cultivating the same attitude in his followers. Which is a very, very, bad thing. In my opinion.
One flavour of anonymous said:
"Her loss was devestating to him personally. I have yet to hear Dave Pack even mention his wife post mortem. It's like it never happened."
Not entirely true:
Special Letter Regarding Mrs. Shirley Pack
From what I can tell, she did not have fibroid tumours removed, after the birth of her third child, and they became malignant. She "suffered from severe anemia for years".
"I charted many kinds of indicators of her condition on a daily and on a weekly basis as we hoped for the progress in natural healing that God, for His own reasons, chose not to grant, either dramatically or over a long period (Isa. 55:8-9)."
-----------------
"we were forced to eat dinner out three or four nights a week for years, and this after having already worked late all of those nights—in many ways wore down my wife’s remaining health and energy (II Cor. 12:15). In the truest sense, my wife may have almost literally “laid down her life for her friends” (John 15:13)."
-------------------------
"God’s people are all forced to play the cards that He has dealt them."
--------------------------
"Sometimes God allows people to live, through healing, and sometimes He does not because “it is appointed unto [all] men once to die” (Heb. 9:27)."
-----------------------------
"We are left to think of how the completion by God of one “living stone” (I Pet. 2:5) within a number so small in the First Resurrection trumps all other reasons why we might wish my wife to have been able to continue at my side."
------------------------------
Can I just add? From the angle of the picture, and comparing the waists of both men, Spanky is definitely standing on a box. Or standing on something. The back of a member mayhap??
Spanky definetly needs to fast more oft.
He's a phony, that's why he's standing on something and that's why he's not getting any of my money!
So greetings back to him!!!
Weinland Watch said...
"Can I just add? From the angle of the picture, and comparing the waists of both men, Spanky is definitely standing on a box. Or standing on something. The back of a member mayhap??"
Hmmmm. Very observant, Rod is definitely standing on something about 4 inches high, like maybe a big desk dictionary - surely not the "holy word" . . . That would bring a whole new understanding of "Standing on the Promises".
I wonder what the purpose of that would be, being taller than Bob, that is?
Rod is also standing with shoulders back, which means chest out stomach in. Wow. and the stomach is still that big?
I was aware of Mr. Pack's letter about Shirley immediately after she died. . I meant since that time and in follow up sermons etc.
I have wondered if his great "Clarion Call" was a post traumatic reaction to her death in some way. A form of denial. A financial high fix to cover the pain. Who knows.
Dave noted she sat for hours in her own blood editing articles for him.
This was medical foolishness of worst type and not a credit to anyone's compassion or concern about another. Anyone can edit for someone in such a dire circumstance.
We shall see what Mr. Dave does should he ever need genuine and immediate medical attention.
That's a wax reproduction of Dr. Meredith commissioned last year by the Council of Elders and produced by Madame Tussaud's wax museum in Niagra Falls, NY.
The wax figure stands on a natural 2x4 foot base which itself, is reproduction of The Harmony of the Gospels.
Normally the curled right hand holds a rod of pure iron but was not found suitable for this particular picture.
This particular wax figure stands in the atrium of LCG headquarters and for a small fee, any genuine member can have their picture taken with it.
There are thought to be 12 of these figures in existence, but that has never been proved.
Sounds Queeeeer I know but...Tee hee hee..I'm not kidding fellows and girls.
RM may actually be taller.
For some odd reason, every chiropractor I've ever visited (a fair number) has been really short. I've often wondered if there's a height prerequisite for the trade:)
Mickey
Jesus, Meredith looks bad. Like Mickey Rourke bad, like a reptilian humanoid off Deep Space Nine or something. His face looks like a mask made of vat grown bio-plastic.
Theil looks like a shrew.
Paul
"That's a wax reproduction of Dr. Meredith commissioned last year by the Council of Elders and produced by Madame Tussaud's wax museum in Niagra Falls, NY."
*LOL*
Maybe LCG could do a "Hall of Saints" animatronic display like at Disneyland. The statues would gesticulate and pre-recorded messages would thunder from speakers set about the hall. Of course, being LCG, it would only feature HWA, Dick Armstrong, and Meredith. Maybe Loma.
Paul
Come on people, he's an old man! What do you expect him to look like?
Let's stick to attacking the issues, not peoples weight, height, age, looks, etc. That crap is first grade, and makes you the fool.
What a duo!
Frick and Frack. Dumb and Dumber. The Captain and Gilliagan. Lurch and Gomez (Addams). Egor and Frankie. (Stine). The dubble doctor and Spanky. Truely a sight to behold.
What really bothers me is any attempt to link these individules to me.
Remember, the 2 witnesses must come from my organization. You might say,...... the 2 is me!
"e pluribus unum" ad nausium
re: The Golden Gloves
Seems repeated and punnishing blows to the head really does cause brain damage. How unfortunate.
"Thiel looks like I imagined him; an effeminent pointdexter type."
Impossible. God will not allow effeminate men into His Kingdom. What you see in Thiel is the Godly Scholar look. Effeminate? No, simply introspective. Sharp. Logical. Brillant (in a Godly, humble way, and never, ever as brillant as Mr. Armstrong), but not intellectual. Thiel is continuing in the Godly lineage of such men as Herman Hoeh and Mr. Armstrong Hisself.
Paul
Paul
Poor Bob, got to give it to him for kissing up to the head honcho. All those degrees (worthless??) an still not a minister. You can read it in his eyes; someday I will be a minister.... maybe even one of the witnesses etc.
Yet for all his self aggrandizement, poor bob is still, well just poor bob with his diplomas.
Hang in there bob, the old man can't live forever!
Maybe the next guy will appreciate your efforts.
All:
I know Bob and his family well. We went to church together for many years. I first met Bob sometime around 1984 or so.
In all fairness to him, I will testify that he is a man of sterling upright character, and a fine family man.
He is not effiminate, in fact he was in the military, either the Army or Marines as I recall.
Yes, he can be over zealous, and judgemental, but I never have known Bob to be an ego maniac, nor a politician. A bit tactless at times, perhaps. But, any time I have spoken with Bob he gave you the straight scoop of his thoughts, without playing games.
He is a talented and intelligent man, and if he was any sort of politician he'd probably be the head of UCG if he attended there.
Dont try to say that Im sucking up to Thiel with this post. We have had email exchanges, and have disagreed vehemently on issues in recent years. Yet, when it is all said and done, I respect Thiel, and can respectfully disagree with the man.
Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA
you'd be surprised said...
>>>Let's stick to attacking the issues, not peoples weight, height, age, looks, etc. That crap is first grade, and makes you the fool.<<<
I couldn't agree more. This blog was set to give participants an opportunity to reflect on their WCG experience. But some people use it, primarily, to attack other people. However, since our experience was not gained (some might say inflicted) in a vacuum, I believe it is some times necessary to discuss the behaviour of some of the principle characters who left indelible marks in the minds of bloggers.
But the emphasis of our posts, in my view, should be on what lessons we have learnt, and how we plan to use those lessons to move forward to better things. For I am reminded of Paul's inspired mindset thus: "This one thing I do, forgetting those things that are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."
Sadly, many have abandoned that high calling, so there is nothing to look forward to. As a consequence, they appear to have been condemned to live in the past, regurgitating the real or perceived hurts and wrongs they have suffered. I find that very sad.
Personally, I would like to add my sincere appreciation to Gavin for setting up the blog, and finding time to keep it stimulated with a variety of interesting topics on a regular basis.
But instead of members discussing the topics, some bloggers default to attacking, what they pejoratively call, Armstrongism, and anyone who doesn't support or share their reflective experience.
Still, in spite of Gavin's obvious frustrations, I would urge him to keep the blog going as long as he is able to, as there are many luckers who benefit from the good and bad comments posted here. The good comments help them to be positive, and the bad ones teach them how not to be negative.
Gavin, keep up the work-:)
Tom said: "Let's stick to attacking the issues, not peoples weight, height, age, looks, etc. That crap is first grade, and makes you the fool."
Sounds like you have learned the value of not doing that yourself Tom. Good for you.
Just some personal thoughts..well I guess they're all personal!
There seems to be in us all a tendency, when we see a picture of something that brings back painful memories or represents ideas and "isms" that we have outgrown, to find fault of those through the pictures or to judge the hearts, mind and soul of the person in the picture.
Maybe we could all agree to grow beyond that. I have read various anti COG sites, one in particular, that takes events and people that I knew personally and really overstates their motives, attitudes and intentions in any number of situations. I was there and when I read their view of what I partipated in or observed, they are way over stating intentions and motives.
To me, and this is just me, some give HWA way too much credit for being deliberatly deceptive etc. That's not the man I knew. He was used by some, he was pampered, he was full of himself at times. I think he was a man locked in his own meme (mind virus) and he went with it out of ignorance or even hope he was right about the Bible.
I'd have to say the same of Flurry and Pack. People to be avoided, but in their own minds, the virus has taken hold and I think they really see it all the way they see it. Some have the charisma to draw the insecure to them for comfort, hope and protection from their fears, real, imagined or concocted to keep them coming back.
Rod Meredith was always intense and zealous. He ran the track with the same zealousness as he preached. I've been insulted a couple of times by him along the way and I don't think he had a clue. He was the product of wherever he came from in life as we all are. I can't assign motives or meaning to how he does what he does because I think he believes it all very well and sincerely. I am amazed that these men never learn anything new or if they do it would be too hard to change it (such as the fact the Gospels aren't all that harmonious...and teach it), but they are Bible readers and seem to feel compelled to do it as they see it.
I don't think GTA learned one new thing to explain theologically since 1968 over the rest of his life.
Someone annonymously sent me Jon Drakauer's book Under the Banner of Heaven. It is about the rise of Joseph Smith and Mormonism. (I grew up just a few miles from Hill Commorah where JS "found" the Golden plates in Palmayra, Ny)
It is an amazing story AND one WCG and COG types would recognize when religion get's topheavy and people don't seem to matter.
Joseph Smith was a pedophile, a trickster and used by others who saw the power in religious control. Of course he was violent as well and ended up being blown out the window of the Carthage, Ill jail with a bullet in his back.
Modern Mormonism need only admit that DNA shows Native Americans are not left over Lamanites of Hebrew origin to see the Book of Mormon spin into oblivion. But this religion is growing faster than any and truth or honesty are not essential to it's survival anymore. That happens with large churches. Small denominations blow apart if this happens too soon.
At any rate, I recommend the book because you will say "oh shit...nothing new under the sun there," often and it gives a good lesson in what bad religion or zealotry can do in our culture. It will sound VERY familiar in all of it's observations.
All this to say, maybe we could all practice not looking at a pic of somone and having it kick into "he looks like....." because that says far more about us than it does about the pic.
PS and then I'll be still.
However, I did not have the same confidence in the motives of the Tkaches over the years. I will also endeavor not to judge, but common sense eluded them and reckless change motivated them with obvious results.
Joe Sr. seemed to revel in the mode of HWA and Jr. seemed bent on destroying a church that probably hurt him more in life than helped him.
Both of them should have simply left WCG to find more comforting "isms" to associate with, but then they would have to conquer their ego and give up the perks and obviously, they did not want to do that either.
What a nutty story.
amen...I go now....
Bill, did you ever get the perspective that Bob Thiel was looking to Roderick Meredith as a father figure? The picture is suggestive.
Tired Skeptic and all:
Interesting topic, this "Father Figure" question.
I cannot answer the question for Bob himself. It probably would not be surprising if it was true though.
It is my opinion that nearly ALL men need and want to have mentors and Fathers or Father figures in their life REGARDLESS of how old you are in the moment. Im 50 years old, and still feel the need to have a "hoary head" in my life, someone in their 70s or older to give me some sage counsel, perspective and vision at times.
I have had a couple of very good father/mentor types in my life. Sadly, they are both dead now. It is kind of funny when now at age 50 that I am supposed to fill the role for younger men, when you still feel the need for it yourself.
Not too long ago I asked an old formeer WCG evangelist about this (aged in the mid 70s). He told me "Bill, I still feel the need for it (father/mentors) myself. Unfortunately, for me, at my age, the buck stops here, for any mentor in my life is long dead.
Growing up, I had a weak and missing Father figure. There was alcoholism and adultery in both my parents. I used to hang around the inner city slum park in East Los Angeles where I grew up, and hang around and stay there all day. I read books at the libary, and hung out with other kids who were just like me. Unloved, abused, ignored who went to the park to escape.
We played football, basketball, baseball and just plain jacked around playing grabass games, making fun of each other, or each others Moms, or sisters. Pranks, cursing, funny stories and general good natured mischief. An occasion fist fight, and a good "F- You" session.
We were all guys without father figures, or having to deal with the fact that the father figure in our life was a failure. We were looking for a place to hang and work it out, even tho school and other respected institutions probably called us "bad boys".
Does Ambassador Watch today fulfill the same role as the park???
Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA
Does Ambassador Watch today fulfill the same role as the park???
Yep, inspite of not know if anything I have experienced or come to see for myself is helpful to anyone but me, AW fills the need for contact with both like experience (perhaps not so much like minds)
I would and have found it difficult to just let it go. I think most of us would have a great time getting together to sit and chat.
Back to topic, briefly. And, still searching for a reason.
There is a not too transparently veiled or masked doctrine within the ACOGs to the effect that one must repress, suppress, or disguise one's intelligence. In fact, you might even say that would be Herbert W. Armstrong's 19th "Restored Truth".
This doctrine gives rise to all manner of game playing. One was allowed to use innate intelligence, up to a point, to further the work. Proof texting was one tool at an intellectual's disposal. Totally forbidden was the application of one's intellect to disproving or diminishing the officially held doctrines of "God's Church".
Another game, less common, involved pretending that one was suppressing one's intellect. In that manner, a person of average intelligence could rise through the ranks, and make something of himself within the ACOG power structure.
Whatever might be true in Dr. Thiel's case, we can know that he is not familiar with the book, "How to Rede and Spel Gud!"
BB
Rod 'Golden Gloves' now looks like former Democratic advisor JAMES CARVILLE !
Dennis:
We don't quite disagree on the idea that HWA "knew what he was doing". I think Robinson's book pretty much showcases that either HWA knew what he was doing, or he was lucky if he knew where he was at any given moment, towards the end. It's all moot now, as to what exactly HWA was thinking in 1956 when he sat down to type out "1975 in Prophecy".
(You just know HWA had to have had an "Oh, sh-!" moment, pre-1972. At least one. Otherwise, why the "The church wasn't ready!" co-worker letter sent around the same year?)
"I'd have to say the same of Flurry and Pack. People to be avoided, but in their own minds, the virus has taken hold and I think they really see it all the way they see it. Some have the charisma to draw the insecure to them for comfort, hope and protection from their fears, real, imagined or concocted to keep them coming back."
I don't know. It's hard to tell, from the outside looking in, but I suspect you may be right, that these men (and the others, including Weinland and Hulme and Dankenbring and McNair) might actually believe the swill they're selling. Therein lies the danger.
The more "true faith" they are perceived as having, the more sincere they're going to seem to the membership, and the more suckered in the membership is going to be. And so the wheel of Armstrongism rolls, on and on and on.
I do want to make one counter-point to this point of yours though Dennis, if you will permit me:
"I am amazed that these men never learn anything new or if they do it would be too hard to change it (such as the fact the Gospels aren't all that harmonious...and teach it), but they are Bible readers and seem to feel compelled to do it as they see it."
These ministers of misery are most assuredly not bible readers, Dennis. They are bible explainers. As in, "Here's my explanation of what this book means, and you shall have no other explanations before me!"
DennisDiehl said...
DD>>>Tom said: "Let's stick to attacking the issues, not peoples weight, height, age, looks, etc. That crap is first grade, and makes you the fool."<<<
I did not say it, it was someone calling himself, "You'd be surprised," who said it.
His comment provoked my reply.
WWWatch
I agree for the most part on all your comments. I speak only from my limited contact, perceptions and inside track through the years. I didn't have one..ha Didn't want one!
When I say Bible readers I usually mean to put "mere" in front of the phrase. By this I mean that they read it and then exlain it as you said. Like an RCM "Bible Study in the Gospels" He merely reads the text, then "explains it" sermonizes and relates it to today insome way. It would never cross his mind to compare it the other gospels and see what's left out, how it was changed, redacted or came to be in the first place. Very shallow
I asked RCM ONE question in freshman Bible and he made fun of me for the most part.....boy could I ask some questions now!
WWatch
You'd really like the book I recommended on the rise of Mormonism and it's parallels to all we have and do see today in the COG's
Nothing new under the "God talks to me" sun.
DennisDiehl said...
"PS and then I'll be still."
MY COMMENT: Uh, huh...when the earth stops rotating. Didn't you say that four posts ago? ;-)
Yeah I did Steve. I have input disease. When was the last time you ever contributed anything of worth here? What insights can you share that your have picked up with your life experiences. Do share them and Ill just listen
In fact, don't even worry having to come up with anything publically here on AW. Just give me a call and tell me exactly what it is you don't care for in my comments or perspectives. I promise to never repeat anything you say to me on the phone.
That's fair enough it seems to me
864 905 5804
Den
DennisDiehl said...
"Yeah I did Steve. I have input disease. When was the last time you ever contributed anything of worth here? What insights can you share that your have picked up with your life experiences. Do share them and Ill just listen"
MY COMMENT: I think I've contributed about as much worthwhile here as you have. And that ain't much! I don't believe you listen, because you like to talk too much, but hey, that's just me. You have enough flattering people on your side. No? Just wait. They'll start posting and tell you how wonderful you are, and how baaaad I am.
I don't ask for anyone to comment on anything I say and most actually don't. I write for me and that occasional person that might resonate with a topic that I find interesting.
You're a sniper or at least have singled me out in your mind as talking too much. Feel free to jump into the conversation and not the pot shots and we'll all enjoy what you have to say or at least get to know you better than just a hit man.
came me after 7 pm this evening EST and we can chat about whatever you want. You'd probably enjoy the common ground we could chat about. I'd even shut up and let you talk.
864 905 5804
I'm not kidding, are you?
Dear Lord, please, in your abundant mercy, make this my last comment. And please inspire my friend Steve to call sooz we can have a few laughs.
Hey,that's a great shot of two luminaries,Rod and Bob.
The two witnesses?? I ask you.
Imagine them in sackcloth.They had better scuttle off to Jerusalem pretty quick in order to beat Ron to the draw.They have only about a month in which to act.
Gavin mighn't have to wear his itchy-scratchy outfit after all.
(Of course,a tube of anti-histamine cream comes with his designer gear.)
Bob reminds me a little of Peter Nathan, a former " regional" director of Worldwide in NZ.
As for Bob's misadventures with the English language,I went to school with any number of future PhDs and MDs, some of them not very adept with the orthographical nuances of our tongue.Today,these are men at the top of their disciplines in science or medicine,and still probably bad spellers.(Maybe Bob needs a different brand of spell-checker.)So, I think Bob can be forgiven a little.And I believe his degrees could be genuine, and not from third degree tertiary institutions,such as exist in the States.Don't worry,we have "experts" here in NZ with worthless doctorates from US universities.
I have to agree with Tom Mahon that a PhD degree doesn't make the holder an expert necessarily.
Seamus
Another thing about spelling.
Punctilious lecturers at Ambassador College used to mark down Kiwi students for "mis-spelling".
eg "labour" instead of "labor".
This was just nitpicking.
Spelling is important,but the differences between the Ephraimitic and Manassetic versions should have been taken into account.
Oops, I committed a cardinal error there. For Ephraimitic and Manassetic,please "British" and "American" respectively.A blast from the dissolute COG
I implore forgiveness.
Seamus
The Revised And Corrected Version
Another thing about spelling.
Punctilious lecturers at Ambassador College used to mark down Kiwi students for "mis-spelling".
eg "labour" instead of "labor".
This was just nitpicking.
Spelling is important,but the differences between the Ephraimitic and Manassetic versions should have been taken into account.
Oops, I committed a cardinal error there. For Ephraimitic and Manassetic,please read "British and "American" respectively.A blast from the dissolute COG
past.
I implore forgiveness.
Seamus
Fri Mar 07, 11:48:00 AM NZDT
I am having a bad spell today.
Hey,that's a great shot of two luminaries,Rod and Bob.
The two witnesses?? I ask you.
Imagine them in sackcloth.They had better scuttle off to Jerusalem pretty quick in order to beat Ron to the draw.They have only about a month in which to act.
Gavin mightn't have to wear his itchy-scratchy outfit after all.
(Of course,a tube of anti-histamine cream comes with his designer gear.)
Bob reminds me a little of Peter Nathan, a former " regional" director of Worldwide in NZ.
As for Bob's misadventures with the English language,I went to school with any number of future PhDs and MDs, some of them not very adept with the orthographical nuances of our tongue.Today,these are men at the top of their disciplines in science or medicine,and still are probably
bad spellers.
So, I think Bob can be forgiven a little. (Maybe he needs a different brand of spell-checker.)
And I believe his degrees could be genuine, and not from third degree tertiary institutions,such as exist in the States.Don't worry,we have "experts" here in NZ with worthless doctorates from US universities who parade as omniscients within their field,and are believed by the suckers who pay good money for worthless advice.
I have to agree with Tom Mahon that a PhD degree doesn't make the holder an expert necessarily.
Seamus
Fri Mar 07, 11:38:00 AM NZDT
You know, the Union Institute isn't exactly a very well-respected (or even well-known place). Check out their website. It looks more like a diploma mill than anything.
Some places of higher education are prestigious, but isn't the value of education what an individual gleans from it all, takes with him/herself, eternalizes, and can use on a day to day basis?
"They'll start posting and tell you how wonderful you are, and how baaaad I am."
How dare you attack Mr. Diehl! And just who are you? Is "Steve" your real name? What congregation do you attend? What are you here for? Why are you trying to stir up trouble? Who is your minister?
Oh Lord, please punish the Ineterloper Steve in his attacks on your Work and the Work you are performing through Mr. Diehl. Ahem, with love in Christ, of course.
Paul
It has been pointed out that Rod is overweight. More shocking than that is today's associated press story in many U.S. newspapers that one can google is that today's German soldiers are overweight and out of shape as well!. Those German soldiers have only about a month to get in shape to round up all us Americans if you are a student of Weinland or US and UK in prophecy.
Dennis wrote: "PS and then I'll be still."
Well, that's a blast from the past!
I remember as a kid riding in my parents' car to and from services, and my dad adopted a habit of, when he didn't like us kids talking or our restlessness in the back seat, and he's wave his hand and command, "BE STILL!", like it was a godly command or something.
I remember thinking how that nutty church was wigging dad out.
I think there was an active meme loose in that church that tended to make one rather full of one's self.
Oh, and I'll try and borrow the Under the Banner of Heaven book through inter-library loan, as I haven't read it.
I have found that reading about others' experiences in various cults helps explain my own experiences, as well as descriptions of other cults helping to describe the WCG.
I've found that under the thin veneers of their sometimes very different and varied teachings, destructive cults are really so much alike underneath it all.
That cult stuff makes a fascinating study, and the Mormons are sure an interesting one. When dad was shopping the religious marketplace, I remember we visited a Mormon church along the way. Later, of course he found the PLAIN TRUTH some herb guy taught, and he settled on that religion, at least till many years later when he figured out that something was quite amiss with herb's deal and he left the church.
Funny how those memes work.
Like a fish-hook barb: easy in, hard to pull out.
Like many others dad has still believed in what herb taught but has never even found a group that he is comfortable with even after so many years.
My sisters and I have watched all of this go down.
And now he has Alzheimer's so it's all like locked in place.
I am a reader dating from Gavin's previous hosting. I have come to appreciate the prospective each of you bring to this forum weather I agree or disagree, not important. I know some of you directly or indirectly from previous associations, most only from your post or other writings. I have been enriched from all your various perspectives. Thanks to all of you for your thoughtful input, and some not as thoughtful but very reviling. (easy to be smug from the sideline) ( :<) If correct spelling, exact word placement and grammar are the only criteria for value or intellect let me help you now, skip my byline. I am a genuine dyslectic. I survived for nearly forty years in the business world with very good proofreaders and rewrites. Spell Checker does not pick up miss used words, nor does all too often, my mind's eye. (:D)
Bill: I liked your question::: Does Ambassador Watch today fulfill the same role as the park???
After 25 yrs. in WCG and buying into the whole program hook line and sinker. Hearing no evil seeing no evil, speaking no evil and smelling no evil as far as WCG was concerned. Paying the price in lost relationships, finances, career opportunities. To state it without the sad details. Believing God cared and as in the case with Job, give full restoration. Believing I was in the only organization God sanctioned all I had to was pay & pray till Christ returned and then all would be made whole again. Then the church turned left I kept going "right" then Out !!!!!! That's it in a nutshell. Same story different day.
Who could trust anyone so DUMB ????
I sure could not.
My sad dilemma is as with many here I am angry with no one else to blame but me.
Some of this stuff can not be fixed !!!
I confess it is nice to come to the Park and stroll and kind of hang out with you folks listen to you talk. Sometimes I do not know what the hell some of you are talking about and sometimes I wish I didn't know. It is still good to have you out there filling a need.
Thanks again Gavin and all you posters
You will not hear from me often, this post took over 4 hrs. to compose. Thankfully I read a little faster than I write. (:>)
Wess
Paul said:
Steve>>"They'll start posting and tell you how wonderful you are, and how baaaad I am."<<<
Paul>>>How dare you attack Mr. Diehl! And just who are you? Is "Steve" your real name? What congregation do you attend? What are you here for? Why are you trying to stir up trouble? Who is your minister?
Oh Lord, please punish the Ineterloper Steve in his attacks on your Work and the Work you are performing through Mr. Diehl.<<<
For an atheist you are very funny! And what a GREAT work he is doing?
DennisDiehl said...
"Yeah I did Steve. I have input disease. When was the last time you ever contributed anything of worth here? What insights can you share that your have picked up with your life experiences. Do share them and Ill just listen"
MY COMMENT: What does THIS have to do with my comment? You said you were going to "be still"(for a while I assumed), then I made the comment in jest that I didn't believe it, and that seemed to ruffle your feathers, and you go off on this tirade about how you "contribute" soooo much.
DennisDiehl said...
"In fact, don't even worry having to come up with anything publically here on AW. Just give me a call and tell me exactly what it is you don't care for in my comments or perspectives. I promise to never repeat anything you say to me on the phone."
MY COMMENT: WHY?? I have nothing to hide. What I say to you here is the same thing I would say to you over the phone, or in a private e-mail. I'm the ONLY one who calls you on something(while others flatter the "minister"), and you don't like it. You think if I call you, then you can straighten me out.
DennisDiehl said...
"I don't ask for anyone to comment on anything I say and most actually don't."
MY COMMENT: So...why do you want me to call you then?
"You're a sniper or at least have singled me out in your mind as talking too much."
MY COMMENT: I just made an observation, and commented in jest. Now, you're calling me names.
"Feel free to jump into the conversation and not the pot shots and we'll all enjoy what you have to say or at least get to know you better than just a hit man."
MY COMMENT: More name-calling.
DennisDiehl said...
"came me after 7 pm this evening EST and we can chat about whatever you want. You'd probably enjoy the common ground we could chat about. I'd even shut up and let you talk.
864 905 5804
I'm not kidding, are you?"
MY COMMENT: Well, I WAS kidding, but you turned it into something serious.
"Dear Lord, please, in your abundant mercy, make this my last comment. And please inspire my friend Steve to call sooz we can have a few laughs."
MY COMMENT: What??? What god are you talking to? Your sun god, moon god, or star god? I thought you didn't believe in that mumbo-jumbo, hocus-pocus religiosity, or, are YOU jesting now?
Tom Mahon, I have a question:
When you (In your LCG days) wrote to Meredith voicing your displeasure about who he was installing in his ministerial stable, did you get any backlash? Were you still allowed to host videos, or did you step down soon after you wrote to Meredith?
Just interested,
Paul
I still say Spanky is standing on something. I wanna know what it is!
take a closer look at the pix, if you can... looks to me to be a cut & paste job in photoshop.... placement, pixel displacement...
huh??
No no no no. Not Photoshop. Spanky is definitely standing on something.
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