The journey many of us have experienced out of WCG is not all that different from those who've left other restrictive movements. A while back I read about a woman's struggle to leave the Exclusive Brethren, and my first reaction was "snap!"
But there do seem to be differences between the XCG gang and the rest - or is it just my narrow bias showing? Here's what I mean.
Name three splinters from Jehovah's Witnesses. (I can name just one off the top of my head.)
Name three splinters from Seventh-day Adventism. (No, COG7 doesn't count! I can name only two.)
Now name ten WCG splinters. No sweat! Only ten though? I can probably list twenty without coming up for breath...
Observation: Why is it that WCG has fractured so, well, prolifically? Surely there has to be a prize for this fecundity of asexual reproduction.
But wait, there's more.
Name a JW/SDA ex-member support site that looks anything like The Painful Truth? Or even an equivalent venting blog to AW? Name another group of sectarian "dissidents" that has produced anything remotely similar to the late John Trechak's brilliant Ambassador Report?
Observation: Ex-members of other groups usually leap online to push a doctrinal barrow. We have folk who do that of course - and with gusto - but as a group we also like to hang out and shoot spitballs for the sheer hell of it. The closest thing I can think of is recovering Scientologists.
Name a genuine biblical scholar - the sort with real qualifications - who has come out from the JWs? The Exclusive Brethren? Yet ex-WCG scholars include Lester Grabbe, James Tabor and the late Charles Dorothy, to name just three. Not bad for a sect that never grew much beyond 100k.
Observation: What explains that?
Now, finally, check out a Bible focussed website that runs those irritating "intelligent" Google ads and count up the representation from nutty WCG splinter ministries. Can anyone else even begin to compete?
Observation four: We may be tottering on the demographic cliff's edge, but it sure isn't for lack of exposure.
Just another disintegrating sect? Yep. But what factors explain the differences?
(On a truly depressing note, a check of Alexa web-rankings yesterday reveals that Weinland's the-end.com is currently the most viewed COG-related website, numbering 111,836 on the hit parade.)
70 comments:
Just another disintegrating sect? Yep. But what factors explain the differences?
The “one true church’ mentality?
THE Lester Grabbe was in the WCG? That's pretty high profile, as far as Second Temple studies is concerned.
I think the Baptists are the champions when it comes to splits. Every time there is a disagreement a group leaves and starts a new church. That's why there is a Baptist Church on every corner, and sometimes within sight of each other.
Baptist, JW, SDA, they're all false churches anyway, so what does it matter?
The largest and most well known COG splinter is the Roman Catholic Church. Think About It:-)
Gavin's wonders:
>>>A while back I read about a woman's struggle to leave the Exclusive Brethren, and my first reaction was "snap!"<<<
The Exclusive Brethren, along with many other cults, imposed restrictions on their members. Like preventing them from social contact with family and friends. Some cults often set up centres, where members are forced to stay until the process of indoctrination is has been completed.
In contrast to the various cults, perspective WCG's members almost had to prove that they were worthy to attend services. WCG's ministers would often visit a perspective member several times before inviting him or her to church. The minister would want to be sure that the perspective member had began to keep the Sabbath, had given up smoking, if that was a problem, or given up an a common law relationship. If these condition had been met, then, the perspective member would have been invited to church.
Unlike the practices of the cults you mentioned, there was never any pressure or coercion exerted by ministers or anyone else to recruit members into WCG!
Later, if the same perspective member requested baptism, s/he would then be counselled to ascertain whether they had "count the the costs," and there were signs of contrition and humility, before the minister would even consider baptising them.
>>>But there do seem to be differences between the XCG gang and the rest - or is it just my narrow bias showing?<<<
Some of the differences have been outlined above, but the main difference was, WCG under HWA was the corporate organisation of the one true church of God. So Satan planted his false ministers amongst God's true ministers and people, to disrupt the church by introducing heresy, such as the STP, just to cite one example.
Also, because of the Laodicean condition of WCG, God spewed it out of his mouth, and some of the false ministers left to set up their own church, to make merchandise of some very deluded people!
And some deluded, bitter and twisted ministers, and former members, have joined various bolgs and forums, to try and exorcise the demons. But it would take much more than just reflecting on one's past WCG experience to subdue and disembowel the demons that agitate the mind!
I will assume that you are fully aware that WCoG is an offshoot of Adventism just as were the Jehovah's Witnesses.
having some similar beliefs does not make one organization an offshoot of another...
baptists have similar beliefs to the roman catholics, but that does not make them an offshoot.
For those of us that value proper grammar and word selection - Tom - please note that there are "prospective" members, not "perspective".
You may also want to get familiar with effect/affect, infer/imply, and the correct placement of commas.
Then again, if you didn't yelp so often about poor grammar and sentence structure in other people's posts these things might not be so irritating in yours.
1) The number of splinters is directly proportional to the amount of serious damage done.
2) The more something is seen as being "broken", the more attempts there will be to "fix" it.
3) Once it is realized that a particular "apostle" never did have the witness of God behind him, his followers will feel free to dismantle the empire with impunity.
BB
WCG instilled the (false) notion that every 'doctrine' was black or white, unchangeable. Hence the brethren - who wanted to be 'right' - carried this concept out with them when WCG collapsed. Disillusioned by that event each refugee focused on a teaching that was dear to him or to her or to a clique.
Sadly, many ex-WCG 'ministers' were motivated to retain a salary. Get a following and start a new church and income was secured. Esau.
There may now be over 400 splinters.
A nameless person said:
"For those of us that value proper grammar and word selection.."
Please don't make me laugh! Most of the posts here are replete with American jargon, newly invented words and poorly constructed sentences.
BTW, who are the "those of us?"
>>>You may also want to get familiar with effect/affect, infer/imply, and the correct placement of commas.<<<
It might be helpful if you could provide some examples, and attach your name to them. Hiding in the shadows and attacking people is the strategy of cowards, you might be shocked to discover!
What explains the differences? The doctrines themselves. The STP reveals a lot, about what life in the Levitical priesthood was like, versus life as one of the lowly sheeple.
There are some people who are still looking for the right "flock"----either to be members of, or to fleece.
What's the difference?
More brainwashed and trained ministers in the Armstrong cult than in the other cults.
WCG ministers, by and large, know no other way to make a living than to carry on with the same con as they have learned.
With the WCG the whole main headquarter's structure broke down, whereas the other cult's main headquarters are still intact.
There are thousands and thousands of ex-JWs but this has no effect on the "headquarters" but if their headquarters ever disintergrates, there will be thousands of JW cult splinters.
Tom says,
The Exclusive Brethren, along with many other cults, imposed restrictions on their members. Like preventing them from social contact with family and friends.
How soon we forget our family and friends with whom we no longer have social contact because of our membership in the WCG cult. In fact that's one of the main gripes of ex-Armstrongites, the alienation of family and friends. I guess Tom didn't notice that happening in his own life - yet. But then, maybe he never had any friends outside the cult.
Tom further preacheth:
Some of the differences have been outlined above, but the main difference was, WCG under HWA was the corporate organisation of the one true church of God. So Satan planted his false ministers amongst God's true ministers and people, to disrupt the church by introducing heresy, such as the STP, just to cite one example.
Which is the perfect example of a well brainwashed man who desires to start a splinter group himself. Maybe Tom Mahon and David Ben Ariel could get together (in more ways than one) and get the "ball" rolling.
It's true: "we like to hang out". But why? (See what I mean?!)
Seriously, though: In my experience, people in WCG congregations would often get to know one another in greater depth than would have been the case in many other social settings, religious or otherwise. There was a lot of concern for others, a lot of time spent together, and a definite sense of belonging, having a "specific purpose" in common, and being (as was supposed) of one mind. It would be cynical to point out that old habits die hard – but maybe we also really still care about one another.
And there was a lot of genuine friendship. I still remember having the pleasure of being a guest in Tom Mahon's home when I was a student in Birmingham about 30 years ago, and I'm happy to hear that he's still going strong and that his professional activities are thriving.
Apart from personal friendships (and I realise people had many different experiences and even horror stories in that area), I can think of a couple of other possible factors contributing to the remarkable WCG after-effect:
For many, there's a serious feeling of simply having nowhere to go after WCG. Also, frankly, it is not easy to share certain things meaningfully with people who have not lived through the WCG experience (and, besides, I think most of us would not want to inflict that on any "new people").
Does any of that resonate with anybody else? Anyway: thanks for listening (and that should be in italic capitals--bold--underlined--and possibly even in red!)
Let's hang together!
Graham Buik
Albert Schweitzer wrote "The Quest for the Historical Jesus", published in 1906. This was Schweitzer's personal quest.
The search for the "historical Jesus", the real Jesus of history, was and is the quest of many us who were apart of the WCG.
Sunday keeping Christianity passed on to us by the good church fathers at Nicea is not the religion of the genuine Jesus.
Jesus was a Sabbath keeping holy day keeping Jew. For a time the Old WCG gave us a better understanding of Jesus. But only for a time.
A great number of very bright and sincere people were once a part of the WCG.
They moved on.
Graham Buik said:
>>>And there was a lot of genuine friendship.<<<
Indeed there were. Sadly, many of those former friends in Christ have now become implacable enemies.
>>>I still remember having the pleasure of being a guest in Tom Mahon's home when I was a student in Birmingham about 30 years ago, and I'm happy to hear that he's still going strong and that his professional activities are thriving.<<<
Graham, it is a delight to here from you. I hope all is well with you and your lovely family.
Any time you are planning to be in my area, please feel free to email me, so that we may rekindle the flames of friendship. You will always be a welcome guest in my home.
BTW, I have moved to the Hill Top area of West Brom. About a couple of miles from where you visited me all those years ago.
I am also pleased to report that God continues to care for me and the family, and is providing for our needs according to his riches in Christ Jesus.
Peace to you, Graham.
Graham noted:
"For many, there's a serious feeling of simply having nowhere to go after WCG."
This resonates well with me personally. I grew up in mainstream Christianity and sincerely so. (Not Fundamentalism)
It was unsatisfying and I told Joe Tkach that he had merely managed to reinvent a very old wheel in "the changes." I was not interested in returning to my unsatisfactory roots with all the associated questions. That was one big useless circle to me.
Mentally and emotionally, WCG was the answer to my Biblical questions if I was going to ask the questions. I realize now, I did not really know what questions to ask. It just seemed right at the time.
When it caved, I was done. I was asked to take the local church and just leave and "we'd just be our own group." Aside from no more energy for drama swapping Pasadena politics for local ones, the accumlated questions of years just came to the surface.
In hindsite, I realize the years '94-98 for me were a watershed and proof, to me, that this nonesense about true churches, prophecy and the people that go with it all was over.
I had anointed thousands and have no miracles to report. (I know, it's my faith fault right) I had given and given and the windows of heaven stayed pretty much shut. I went were I was sent and sat through hundreds of hours of "refreshers" that were exhausting.
Recently I went back to the church building of my youth and sat at the same wooden table I had catechism classes at and asked about all the WCG stuff I knew the minister couldn't answer. ( and he really didn't-he threw me out of class once!) That was 44 years ago and the table is still sitting in the same room. I called the pastors son recently and told him if his dad was still alive, I'd apologize to him for the trouble.
We're all hear to learn and we all seem to learn and need different things from our experiences.
At one level, I wish I had never heard of WCG, but as the sign on my desk says...
"Whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should."
PS Tom all that aren't like you aren't the enemy.
I think the average member was more sincere in their seeking than the leadership of the Armstrongs and eventually the Tkaches.
They NEVER understood the loyalty, sincere giving, sacrifice and effort made by church members to attend church, feasts and support what seemed right.
The Tkaches tanked the church because they NEVER understood the investment of members had emotionally, physically and spiritually in the hope of the Church in their lives.
Many but not all, ministers forgot their own roots and never felt compelled to examine what they taught unless given permission to. Then you had to come to the same conclusions as the administration.
Bottom line. I think there are so many splinters because one of the lessons you learn from WCG is "trust no man." The only way to insure you are totally informed (accurately or not) is to be in charge.
Pack and Flurry live in the past and are reinventing "the work" down to the details. I can't explain Weinland.
It's interesting how the Mayans came to the conclusion their calendar ends on the solstice of 2012 and now fundies are trying to attach themselves to this grand date as well but Biblically.
It's nuts.
A post by Anonymous conveyed a perceptive observation. Armstrongites were trained to view their body of doctrine as perfect. So when someone thought they found the smallest thing to be incorrect, they were motivated to go out and start a new church.
I remember a group of people left the church in Big Sandy in the early Seventies because they believed mushrooms, straberries and bananas to be unclean. Their solution was to start a new church that observed all the traditional Armstrongite docrines but accommodated their new views. And of course their church was the one and only true church so they could not fellowship with other Armstrongites.
The Church of Christ in my community, on the other hand, had some internal differences and this resulted in a new Church of Christ being started. But the disagreeing churches still believe themselves to be a part of the same organization and their members fellowship with eachother.
I am convinced that the following principles lead to repeated schism in the Armstrongite community:
1) There is a deep desire for exclusivism. Armstrongites want to belong to the one and only true church and they want that church to be small.
2) There seems to always be someone around who wants to imitate HWA. These people want to fly around in a jet, be an Apostle and live off the tithes of other people. These people form a seething pool of dissidence and are perched waiting for a leadership position to come along.
3)Armstrongites want to believe they have exclusive and perfect knowledge. And they must have a perfect body of knowledge if they are to be the true church. Consequently, any disagreement must result in a new church.
-- Neo
Neo said:
"I remember a group of people left the church in Big Sandy in the early Seventies because they believed mushrooms, straberries and bananas to be unclean."
I can't speak for the strawberries or mushrooms, but I understand the prohibition on bananas was later repeeled.... :)
I differ about the websites for ex-JW's. There are a lot of them out there, all exposing the hypocrisy and lies of the JW leadership, the Watchtower, etc.
I have participated on several over the years because they we great in providing help for my excit from the cult of Armstrongism.
Tom needs to check some of them out so he too can escape the garbanzo beans of Herbalism.
Here are some great sites that are comparable to the various COG related sites.
http://www.exjws.net/
Watch The Tower
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2919/
Ex-JW Forum and Recovery Board
http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/
Beyond JW's
http://members.aol.com/beyondjw/bj.htm
Ex-JW Video's
http://exjwvideos.spiritualtechnologies.ca/
Virus Head
Mutating bits of contagious discourse, because language is a virus
http://www.virushead.net/vhrandom/ex-jw-resources/
And just like COGland, JW's also have their ex-JW gay member sites:
A Common Bond
http://www.gayxjw.org/resources.html
Gay ex-JW Witnesses
http://gayjw.blogspot.com/
Blogger James Pate said...
THE Lester Grabbe was in the WCG? That's pretty high profile, as far as Second Temple studies is concerned.
Not only that, he was one of the authors of the Systematic Theology Project.
BTW, they were two Grabbe families within the WCG, both large, and they are unrelated.
Anonymous said...
I will assume that you are fully aware that WCoG is an offshoot of Adventism just as were the Jehovah's Witnesses.
That's the Adventist view of events (are google sponsored events advents?)
The SDAs, JWs, and WCG are all offshoots of the Millerite movement, which thought the world would end in 1844.
Prediction addiction, is, as they say, in their blood.
Neo,
"The Church of Christ in my community, on the other hand, had some internal differences and this resulted in a new Church of Christ being started. But the disagreeing churches still believe themselves to be a part of the same organization and their members fellowship with eachother."
You are an Evangelical...
One of the primary traits of WCG was a never ending search for the "truth". Truth defined WCG, even as it set it apart from all other churches, who, since they didn't acknowledge the truth, were doubtless then pagan.
So we kept the sabbath since that was commanded forever, and not sunday, since there was no such command. The holy days were also commanded "forever", and references in the prophetic books led some to believe these same holy days will be kept when Christ returns.
The day pentecost was observed was changed because of "truth". D&R was presented as changed because we had grown in understanding of the scriptures and now understood more clearly - D&R truth.
Harmstrong gave us several sermons on his "restored truths" and many in various splinters still cling to that list as a talisman that will grease their way into the kingdom.
In such an atmosphere, any deviation from the accepted and apostle approved "truth" was grounds for being disfellowshipped. When the mother of splinters started departing from Harmstrong orthodoxy it prompted many to leave because WCG no longer taught "the truth".
That poisonous, non-tolerant attitude is alive and well in all of momma church's little natural children. Depart from the truth and you will get put out, or leave and take the like minded with you.
What is ironic about this are a couple of things. First is that in the crisis of '74(?), when Harmstrong had to hotfoot it back to the US from the Phillipines, he chose to support philandering GTA over truth. Power was more important than truth. Ministers that choked on Ted as a major church leader after his moral failings were thrown out as being in the bond of satan.
Secondly, when you read the teachings of Jesus you find that he never obsesses over truth. Giving shewbread to hungry soldiers was more important than maintaining the truth that this bread was for priests only. Forgiving a sin was more important than exacting the penalty that the law required, as with the woman caught in adultery. Grace to the thief on the cross was more important than following all the legalistic steps that some maintain "must" be done before you can be called a Christian.
Jesus stresed believing in him - faith - rather than having every doctrine perfectly right. He stressed love as the proof of discipleship, not doctrinal purity.
So long as the ACOGs don't focus on faith and love and do focus on doctrinal perfection, they'll just keep on splintering themselves into oblivion.
May that day soon come.
KMS
KMS noted
"Forgiving a sin was more important than exacting the penalty that the law required, as with the woman caught in adultery. Grace to the thief on the cross was more important than following all the legalistic steps that some maintain "must" be done before you can be called a Christian."
I agree, that the kinder gentler approach is what it's all about. Makes one wonder how Jesus got from Gospel Jesus to the Jesus of Revelation. Seems to have had an attitude change along the way.
I have always looked upon the situation as very similar to a small town without boundaries. We in the CoG movement (for lack of a better term) are still connected even if we move to another part of "town". Having traveled a bit and lived in various states in the past 40 years, connection appeared to me to be a key. Someone commented how we all got to know each other so well and this connected us. This observation is well taken and one I have observed. Much connected us in the WWCG: Camp, Feasts, magazines, etc If we lved in Florida, we knew about SEP in Orr, Minnesota. Attending a Feast in Virginia we met folks from California. A "small town" in a large world.
Now we still know folks in all the splits down the road and are keenly interested in it all.
Adele
I have to say that's one thing I didn't take with me when I exited: That sense of "CoG community". That was due to a lot of factors though, both within and without the church (and in my home environment).
When my parents and I finally decided to make the split permanent, it was a two-sentence conversation:
"Not much point in going to church anymore is there?"
"Not really."
If it had been left at that, it probably would have been fine. My parents however, decided that this gave them carte blanche to then go out and act like the past twenty years (including my birth in the church) had never happened.
So not only were all the "teachings" I had been indoctrinated with dropped by the "one true church" I had always believed in, my parents dropped all the former "rules" of the "one true church" like a hot potato (right along with all the new ones fortunately).
It was like flicking a light switch for my parents. Christmas carols from Thanksgiving through the New Year. Every night (the year we exited) dragged out to look at the Christmas lights on the houses. Having to sit for hours in the house of a (non-church) family we barely knew, on Christmas Day eating Christmas dinner and observing all the Christmas traditions.
All of which I have no problem with now (hey my annual Christmas dinner averages at least ten to twelve people), but it's taken me almost fifteen years to get to this point. My parents dropped everything the same year we exited.
Talk about culture shock. Only problem was the foreign culture I had been dropped into was my own family!
Needless to say, we did not keep in contact with anyone from the church. As far as my parents were concerned, twenty years of our lives didn't even exist.
So I definitely don't share that experience with other ex-members, of knowing people or having family members still in the splinters.
HWA never foretold of the "Four Horsemen of the Atheist Apocalypse:"
http://www.viruscomix.com/page433.html
Paul
Methinks you're much more likely to recall splits and divisions of the denomination you attend most often, as opposed to other sects. You're closer to it, after all.
Long-time Adventists probably can name all its splits justlikethat.
Paul said:
>>>HWA never foretold of the "Four Horsemen of the Atheist Apocalypse:"<<
He did want to warn you that these horses are prophesied to trample all atheists to death!
DennisDiehl said...
KMS noted
>>>"Forgiving a sin was more important than exacting the penalty that the law required, as with the woman caught in adultery. Grace to the thief on the cross was more important than following all the legalistic steps that some maintain "must" be done before you can be called a Christian."<<<
DD concurred:>>>I agree, that the kinder gentler approach is what it's all about.<<<
This particular approach is known as the Religion of False Compassion. It was very popular among the Mayans, and the details of the practice may be deciphered from the unusual markings on their calendar.
OTOH, the Christian God is a God of mercy and justice. Those who confess their sins and turn from them will find mercy, and those who don't will perish!
DennisDiehl said...
>>PS Tom all that aren't like you aren't the enemy.<<
Aren't they? Jesus said, "Those who are with us are against us." So I prefer to believe Jesus, you won't be surprised to learn!
"OTOH, the Christian God is a God of mercy and justice. Those who confess their sins and turn from them will find mercy, and those who don't will perish!"
I wonder if the Cannanites were given ample warning to repent before the Israelite Hammer fell?
By the way, I wonder if a 7.62mm round will stop a Horse of the Apocalypse? What about sharpened stakes? Will these horses break down my front door, or will they wait for me to go out, and catch me unawares? I wouldn't mind being trampled to death early on in the Tribulation, though. I want to avoid all that scorpion stinging and starvation. You think you could pull some strings with your Christian God and maybe score me a quick death? Above all, I do not want to live in the Wonderful World Tomorrow if it's run by you, Theil, Spanky, and Herb the Drunken Molester. I think the other word for that place is "hell."
Paul
HAPPY BIRTHDAY,GAVIN.
All day,too.
Did you say this was your 35th?
Is this not one of Ron's crucial days,the 1290th/1260th,also?
Be good.
Seamus
As for the Jehovah's Witnesses and other cult like groups, how many of their members are aware of Steuben Crystal? USA Today recently reported that it is up for sale. USA wrote that the manufacturer believes that it is the end of the generation that it appealed to.
Tom said:
"Jesus said, "Those who are with us are against us
He did? I believe this was more the context.
John says some other group of people have been healing people in Jesus' name even though they were not part of the group but Jesus is pleased and says "...For he who is not against us is for us." (9:40).
I do agree that this concept was redacted in Matthew and Luke to take on the more sinister meaning.
In Matthew 12:30 and Luke 11:23 Jesus says: "He who is not with Me is against Me"
However, in the original and oldest context, found in Mark, the disciples seem to think one needs to be part of Jesus' personal group but Jesus makes clear that anyone who works in his name and does his work is also for him.
But I just can't find...
"Those that are with us are against us."
Anonymous:
I am not an evangelical. I know about the Church of Christ's history in ourcommunity but I do not belong to it.
Speaking of evangelicals, I understand that Hagee is actively encouraging the government to attack Iran.
-- Neo
Tom speaketh...
"He did want to warn you that these horses are prophesied to trample all atheists to death!"
A man is known by those he hangs out with! Your not Jesus. Just Tom.
If Jesus were as fat assed as Hagee, he'd never have gotten out off the ground.
DennisDiehl said...
But I just can't find...
"Those that are with us are against us."
Its in I Pogo 1:1
I have a couple of thoughts about this. I think that most members or former members in COGland feel like Dennis - there is something missing for them in traditional or orthodox Christianity. The Bible doesn't make sense and people feel a need to have it make sense. I think it helps COG typers when they are actually doing the things that Jesus did and actually following in his footsteps. Christmas and Easter traditions with all their paganism just doesn't cut it like to COGer. That ties people together and you see that in the splinters. Some need and/or want someone with more control over their lives.
I recently got this from a Stratfor Intelligence briefing:
All nations have complex psyches, but the American is particularly complex, contradictory and divisive. It is torn between two
poles: dread and hubris. They alternate and compete and tear at each other. Neither dominates. They are both just there,
tied to each other. The dread comes from a feeling of impending doom, the hubris from constantly overcoming it.
Hubris is built into American history. The American republic was founded to be an exemplary regime, one that should be
emulated. This sense of exceptionality was buttressed by the doctrine of manifest destiny, the idea that the United States in
due course would dominate the continent. Americans pushed inward to discover verdant horizons filled with riches one after
another, indelibly impressing upon them that life was supposed to get better and that setbacks were somehow unnatural. It
is hard not to be an economic superpower when you effectively have an entire continent to yourself, and it is especially hard
not to be a global economic hegemon once you've tamed that continent and use it as a base from which to push out. But
the greatest driver for American hubris was the extraordinary economic success of the United States, and in particular its
extraordinary technological achievements. There is a sense that there is nothing that the United States cannot achieve-and
no limits to American power.
But underlying this extraordinary self-confidence is a sense of dread. To understand the dread, we have to understand the
1930s. The 1920s were a time of apparent peace and prosperity: World War I was over, and the United States was secure
and prosperous. The market crash of 1929, followed by the Great Depression, imprinted itself on the American psyche.
There is a perpetual fear that underneath the apparent prosperity of our time, economic catastrophe lurks. It is a sense that
well-being masks a deep economic sickness. Part of the American psyche is braced for disaster.
When I read this I felt like it spoke to all of the things that I know growing up in COGland and are still a part of it. We all feel like God has a grand destiny for us. That is the British Israel side of all of us. However we all feel that God is going to punish us for our sins. The great depression side of us. And we want someone to save us from ourselves.
Life experience seems to be teaching me that God wants us all to grow up and realize that His Grace is there for our sins. We need to grow up and act like adults and face our problems and He will fill in the spaces where we fall short.
"Christmas and Easter traditions with all their paganism just doesn't cut it like to COGer."
Plus, there's all the family-togetherness-tight-unit-stuff with Christmas, all the feel-good-you should-do-good stuff, and most importantly, with Christmas, there is no promise of living forever and kicking everyone's ass with that Rod of Iron, so yeah, I can see how Christmas might leave a COG'er unfulfilled.
Paul
Gavin and all:
I believe the main reason SDAs and JWs do not have as many schisms, is because they empower their people much more at the lay member level.
The opportunity to preach, or teach or publish is virtually unlimited. SDAs have no restrictions on someone deciding to form a ministry or to publish. JWs, naturally, are teachers and empowered to do so by their evangelism activities. Both of these groups encourage people getting together and having fellowship Bible studies etc, all without a necessary prescense of "an ordained minister".
The COGs are a totally impotent force at the lay member level. Other that Pay, Pray, Stay and Obey, you are encouraged to DO NOTHING! You are a good church member if you remain just a spectator. Even the ministry must never get too creative or have a unique thought.
Hence, there are a lot of folks who are just "biting at the bit" to get into the game and take a few swings of the bat. Both ministry and laity alike. If these "creative juices" could be expressed internally within their prior groups, the splintering would likely be far less.
One other point... The amount of "splinters" is defacto much less than 400. Other than about 10 org groups, most of these are local fellowships that cooperate nicely with other local fellowships across the country. The Independent movements that are not icon based get along fine, and have no problems joining up at the FOT etc. I do not believe to call isolated independent fellowships "splinters" if they are cooperative with other splinters.
Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA
I was attracted to the WCG when I was seventeen years old. When I joined up, I felt like I was a part of something. When most everybody left in the post-1995 period, I experienced an enormous loss of community -- and I was never particularly treated well in the WCG.
The local Protestant churches I attended were just not the same. I could walk into one of these churches and nobody would even notice I was there. In the WCG you had an immiedate, the first time you attended, bona fides because a minister had visited with you and prepped you. In a Protestant church you have the freedom to remain aloof or to make yourself known.
The WCG was a tight-knit, well organized church. But gang members will express the same sentiments I have regarding the WCG about their gang. Organizations like this become family. Leaving a gang is difficult. But that does not mean the gang is good.
It is the freedom after WCG that bothers us the most. We long for the regimentation. We long for the structure. Freedom can be frightening.
-- Neo
Some people revel in staying in their gang mentality and imagine that the people who are not "with them" will die horribly- such as screaming for mercy while being burned alive or trampled by horses.
Strange how some get their jollies on such ideas.
Glad to see that the Biblical stuff is on another site, I am not biblically oriented.
I think about the self absorbtion in Pasadena during the hey day of WCG before the Bible was deemphasized (perspective changed) by a group of ex-YOU kids.
DennisDiehl said...
TOM>>>"Jesus said, "Those who are NOT with us are against us<<<
DD>>>He did? I believe this was more the context.
John says some other group of people have been healing people in Jesus' name even though they were not part of the group but Jesus is pleased and says "...For he who is not against us is for us." (9:40).<<<
It was not a group of people. The passage in Mark says, "And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw ONE casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us"(Mark 9:38). And Jesus replied, "Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can likely speak evil of me."
Two points are worth noting here. One, unlike the people in cog-land, the disciples understood that Christ is not divided and God is not the author of confusion.
The second point is, Jesus was teaching that God would only give the power to perform miracles to people he counted faithful. So even though the man was not travelling around with Christ and his disciples, he was still with and for Christ.
DD>>>I do agree that this concept was redacted in Matthew and Luke to take on the more sinister meaning.<<<
It only becomes sinister to those who believe that Christ is divided, and that every splinter group is a church of God.
DD>>>But I just can't find...
"Those that are with us are against us."<<<
I think this might have been either from the Mayan calendar or the Gnostic gospels. I am surprised you couldn't find it, for you seem to be very familiar with the history and teachings of the Mayans, and the inspired origin of the Gnostic gospels.
Jesus said, "Those who are with us are against us."
Blasphemy. Jesus never said that, or at least it just isn't in Scripture, but we should come to expect this sort of thing from an idolater.
The reason for all the schisms: Herbert Armstrong was the Church of God. He was God as God is God, but not God. People worshiped him. It gave them empowerment. It gave him what he wanted: Arrogant empowerment to at last have people listen to and believe in his silly ideas which never amounted to anything. Not only did they not amount to anything, but after he died, they fell apart -- betrayed by the very people he entrusted to carry on his ideas after his death -- the only life after death he could have.
Two sorts of people seemed to be attracted to the WCG: Conspiracy theory nuts who wanted to believe that everyone in power was lying and the world was going to hell in a handbasket and the ultra conservatives who wanted to believe in law and order, stability, predictability and status quo. Many of the latter seem to have become the Republican dog owning pastards. There were also others who lived in fear in their pathetic lives who wanted to believe that they could and would be somebody important some day if only they did what they perceived Herbert Armstrong wanted them to do: They were trampled victims in this life, but in the future they could be God. Unfortunately, they were trampled by Herbert Armstrong's cash machine and don't seem to have a future.
In such a chaotic environment filled with dread and hubris, there was absolutely no future after the death of Herbert Armstrong: The dream of his ideas ended and reality set in. His false prophecies became a deep disappointment to many and the power hungry who lusted in the pride of life and wanted to BE IN CHARGE attempted to take over, but the environment was gone forever and there isn't anyone much anymore who would believe in the nonsensical 50s stuff which has been transmogrified into threats from radical Arab Islamic terrorists -- something which could have been predicted by those looking at Scripture, but somehow lost on Armstrongists.
If Herbert Armstrong were such a decent God fearing man, one would think that God would have continued his line, but, alas, much like Eli and others in Scripture, his day came and went and so did his blood line which was utterly cut off, unless you want to count the non minister minister, Mark, presiding over less and less and less.
Pretenders who can't even get Scripture right want to ride the coat tails of Herbert Armstrong as "the man" -- the narcissist who wanted to be somebody and have people believe his ideas, filled with the pride of life. He held the WCG together with the force of his will and all that money that people gave to him to support the propagation of his ideas.
His ideas are worthless.
So now people have to rethink their positions and regroup. Many are stuck with his ideas and won't give them up -- but find hundreds of other flavors. Others attempt to use Herbert Armstrong as a talisman in their idolatry to support their little tiny "work" and give it credence. For example, even thought they don't agree with Herbert Armstrong, particularly in when the holydays should be kept, the Church of God in Truth plays Herbert Armstrong tapes every third week or so: It's just plain weird to hear a dead man from the grave shout at the top of his voice about homosexuals, but there it is.
Now it is true that some of the smaller groups all go to the Feast together. There are some who are from United, Living and others who attend with groups that have nothing to do with the groups they gather with from week to week. The "Brethren" are just fine together and there can be a great deal of cooperation.
The competition and divisions mainly come from the leadership determined that they have the best grasp of what "Mr. Armstrong"'s ideas were and pride themselves in pushing his agenda forward, even though, by this time it should be clear that he was an abject failure and nothing much is left of either his empire or his silly ideas. In creating smaller and smaller groups, the cultmeisters do the theological gene pool a favor by gathering the spiritually weakest at the shallow end of the gene pool and thus contribute to the survival of the fittest with the stronger making progress to a more deep and clear understanding.
Unfortunately for the Armstrongists, they never get any closer to knowing God as The Father, having been blinded by the shiny gold idol they have set up on a pedestal and are busily worshiping, not realizing that the false prophet end time apostle is actually dead now and has no more power to either help them or hurt them except by the constant invocation of his unholy name.
It's hard work trying to find and align oneself with the one true pure mythology.
'...I wonder if the Cannanites were given ample warning to repent before the Israelite Hammer fell?...'
In Abraham's time God was patient with 'the iniquity of the Amorites' - not expelled until the Exodus.
Then there was Melchizadek - Prince in Salem, a Canaanite city at the time of Sodom.
And would the latter not be a warning to them?
Paul wonders:
>>>I wonder if the Cannanites were given ample warning to repent before the Israelite Hammer fell?<<<
It doesn't matter whether they were warned not or not. "For as many as have sinned without the law shall also perish without the law."
>>>By the way, I wonder if a 7.62mm round will stop a Horse of the Apocalypse?<<<
They are spiritual horses. Your puny weapon will be about as effective as a hoot in a whirlwind.
>>>Will these horses break down my front door, or will they wait for me to go out, and catch me unawares?<<<
Breaking down your front door won't be necessary. You will be forced to flee your home, and they will be waiting!
>>>I wouldn't mind being trampled to death early on in the Tribulation, though.<<<
Sadly, this wish will not be granted. You will be trampled, but not permitted to die.
>>>Above all, I do not want to live in the Wonderful World Tomorrow if it's run by you, Theil, Spanky, and Herb the Drunken Molester.<<<
I don't know what will happened to Spanky or Thiel, but if you continue being an atheist you won't be there.
Lussenheide said...
>>>The opportunity to preach, or teach or publish is virtually unlimited. SDAs have no restrictions on someone deciding to form a ministry or to publish.<<<
This is not surprising. The JWs don't have any sacred doctrines to protect, but the church of God does! Note Paul's admonition to Timothy thus: "Take heed to yourself, and unto the DOCTRINE; continue in them: for in doing this you shall both save yourself, and them that hear you"(1 Tim.4:16).
The sacred doctrine of God's church, which were revealed to the church through Christ, teach God's elect what to believe and how to worship God.
OTOH, pagan churches may change their doctrines as and when they wish, for they worship the devil!
Tom, you are one sick puppy.
"They are spiritual horses. Your puny weapon will be about as effective as a hoot in a whirlwind."
Oh yeah, what if I have a spiritual 7.62mm round fired from a spiritual automatic weapon?
What about witchcraft? Would that work?
Thanks for the remark about my atheism preventing me from being in the Wonderful World Tomorrow. It only furthers my resolve. I don't want to be there. Who wants to be ruled by a drunken child molester who treats those under his control like animals?
Paul
Do spiritual horses have spirit hoofs, or real hoofs? I mean, will a spirit hoof hurt? Or does the spirit horse turn his spirit hoof into a real hoof the instant before it strikes the skull of a terrified atheist?
Paul
It's interesting to reflect that in all the years of my own WCG membership, I don't recall the actual word 'church' being examined critically - odd, considering the exact meaning of different words was so often considered critical to true doctrine. It appears 'church' evolved, as language does, from the Greek kuriakon, which does not appear at all in the Greek manuscripts (kuriakos does, twice, but not kuriakon). Kuriakon essentially means 'place/house where homage is paid to the overlord (any lord)'.
The correct word for the body of Christ - ekklesia - should be in English 'assembly' or 'congregation'. This focuses on the people, not an organisation or structure built over the people. It focuses on the empowerment of local fellowship groups - to appoint their own elders, etc, etc.
The word 'church' itself creates its own enslaving structural environment of hierarchy, exactly as it was intended to do so. The KJV translators were instructed to prefer 'church' over the correct options for 'ekklesia', unlike Tyndale who only used 'church' once - to describe a pagan temple (its more correct use).
Odd indeed that this 'truth' escaped scrutiny.... and still escapes the scrutiny today of the many offshoots. They fail to see that their structure is wholly worldly, not scriptural at all.
DennisDiehl said...
>>PS Tom all that aren't like you aren't the enemy.<<
Tom Mahon said...
Aren't they? Jesus said, "Those who are with us are against us." So I prefer to believe Jesus, you won't be surprised to learn!"
Where exactly did you find that quote of Jesus? I think you made it up and are adding to the scriptures as Jesus warned against in the book of revelation, and all the horrible things you wish upon Paul and others will happen to you if the fairy tale were to come true. You added to scripture, and twisted what Jesus said.
Paul, you have nothing to worry about from Toms imaginary horse. His imaginary God is so powerless that he can't even stop a simple mosquito from biting a child in a jungle and infecting it with the deadly malaria virus. So much for his loving Gods power.
On the other hand, scientists have devised ways to prevent malaria and heal malaria victims. Something Toms God is powerless to do.
Am I worried about Toms deranged, homicidal (and powerless) deity? Hmmm... Nope!!!
Thomas Munson
Talk about splinters. We have forgotten about the ancient Norse gods such as Thor and Odin. Thorsday is next Thursday, and every Thursday for that matter. People still worship these gods in fact about 15,000 people do. The next holy day is Walpurgis 22 April, Lithasblot is 31st of July.Their Holy Day schedule can be found www.wizardrealm.com/norse/index. or just google around Norse god worshiping. Happy Walpurgis Day to you all. Can Halmark start marketing Walpurgis day cards? Can we use our rights to ask for that day off? Can we make some money marketing gifts for Walpurgis Day?
Walpurgis is from April 22 through May 1st. Sounds like all the work of the Feast
My birthday happens to correspond with HWAs birthday, and also his wedding anniversary July 31st.
In fact, the year I was born, 1957, marked his 65th Birthday and 40th anniversary of HWA. (Please note the symbolic numerology, and begin mailing me tithes!)
Im not an adherent, and just learned about the Norse pagan day posted just above called "Lithasblot".
Interetingly enough, it too is on July 31st!
Here is what a quick google search found about this day...
Lithasblot 1941 was allegedly the time when the magical lodges of England performed rituals to keep the Nazi forces from invading their country; which may have worked, since Hitler eventually abandoned plans to invade Great Britain. Lithasblot has long been associated with ceremonial magic and magical workings.
As a child I thought that all my July 31st birthday ever meant societally and historically, was that it was going to be hotter than hell outside, and you better eat your dixie doodle ice cream bar quick!
I am now privlidged to know that my birthday is now associated with both a cult and pagans! LOL!
Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA
My birthday happens to correspond with HWAs birthday, and also his wedding anniversary July 31st.
Aww. I remember the video guy saying the same thing. So you are him?
I am not "The Video Guy".
On another note, some verified information from a reliable source on another forum....
It seems a letter has been sent to the elders in UCG...regarding Aaron
Dean. What sin according to UCG did Aaron commit? He spoke to an
outside audience...other than one sanctioned by UCG officials. He is
prohibited from speaking ANYWHERE for the next several months. And the
report that I received is that some of the folks he spoke with are
considering attending or have attended UCG because of his talk with
them. Oh how typical!! When will they learn to stop shooting
themselves in the foot???
Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA
Lussenheide I am sorry. I thought you where the guy? that makes the videos about herb. He also was on the painfultruth website claiming the same thing some years ago. What does Aaron got to do with this?
Dear Braveheart Tom:
I remember when you posted as "VistaAdmin". Were you a coward then?
Aaron Dean probably doesn't give a rat's ass what the UCG higher-ups think. He'll probably go along, because that's what he does, but it's not likely he'll lose any sleep over it.
Ah, the "we control you" mentality. What a scream.
"My birthday happens to correspond with HWAs birthday, and also his wedding anniversary July 31st.
In fact, the year I was born, 1957, marked his 65th Birthday and 40th anniversary of HWA. (Please note the symbolic numerology, and begin mailing me tithes!)"
Both Flurry and Pack probably pounded their fists after reading Bill's post, gritting their teeth with envy. I'm serious. These guys would use those dates in their sermons to further solidify their positions as HWA' Heir. Bill, you might just hear yourself referenced in upcoming sermons:
"It's come to my attention that certain elements in the splinters are trying to imply that they are Mr. Armstrong's Heir in the Work by pointing out that dates coincide..."
And ect.
Paul
The largest and most well known COG splinter is the Roman Catholic Church. Think About It
I've thought about it, a lot. The seventh-day Sabbatarian "Church of God" movement didn't exist until the 1800s. The Catholic Church existed well before the 1800s. So, unless you believe in time travel, there's no way the Catholic Church could have arisen from any self-styled (seventh-day Sabbatarian) "Church of God."
having some similar beliefs does not make one organization an offshoot of another...
True -- but originating from an organisation does.
baptists have similar beliefs to the roman catholics, but that does not make them an offshoot.
True. They're not an offshoot of the Catholics because they have similar beliefs. Rather, the similar beliefs are there because they're an offshoot of the Catholics. What makes the Baptists a Catholic offshoot is the fact that they originated with an English Puritan named John Smyth and several others like him -- the Puritans came from the Anglican Church, which came from the English Catholic Church.
Bamboo Bends said: That's the Adventist view of events
It's also the historical view of things. (You're probably confusing "Adventist" with "Seventh-Day Adventist" -- but there are First-Day Adventist groups.)
The SDAs, JWs, and WCG are all offshoots of the Millerite movement, which thought the world would end in 1844.
The Millerite movement is also known as the Adventist movement. Most Adventists became seventh-day Sabbatarians, and of those the largest number formed the Seventh-Day Adventist denomination in 1860. The remainder eventually became the Church of God (Seventh-Day), unwilling parent of the Radio Church of God/Worldwide Church of God.
Name three splinters from Jehovah's Witnesses. (I can name just one off the top of my head.)
Name three splinters from Seventh-day Adventism. (No, COG7 doesn't count! I can name only two.)
Now name ten WCG splinters. No sweat! Only ten though? I can probably list twenty without coming up for breath...
I think this is largely a function of the fact that we're former Armstrongists: we know the WCG, we know its history well (probably too well). If we'd been JWs or SDAs, I imagine we'd be more familiar with their history of splinter groups.
Not to change the subject, but speaking of a sect (or group of sects) that is "the same (as the WCG) but different," you might find this news report on the Black Israelites to be quite fascinating: sort of an African-American version of Armstrongism, with the strain of racist pseudohistory and obsession with the identity of the tribes of Israel.
http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/
display.php?id=34768
Don't forget the Indians who believe they are Manasseh.
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