A lot of folk have been winding up on this blog lately after tapping "Ronald Weinland" (or "Ron Weinland") into Google. If you're one of them - welcome!
To access past postings here on Ronnie Weinland, click the Weinland label at the bottom of this entry. If you haven't come across it yet, you might like to also check out the Weinland Watch blog (unrelated to AW).
The "short and skinny" on Weinland is that he has a past history with the Worldwide Church of God under Herbert W. Armstrong, and later the United Church of God. I imagine neither organization would want to know him these days, and he currently runs his very own designer sect. Armstrong was, and the UCG is, "Adventist" in the sense that the End of the Age is supposedly just around the corner, based on a misreading of passages in Daniel, Revelation, Matthew 24 and elsewhere. Armstrong also speculated about dates - though nothing as crass as Weinland - before getting his fingers burned (and ruining a lot of lives in the process). UCG isn't silly enough to set actual dates.
Weinland speaks well, and with considerable self assurance. But a bravura display of bravado means absolutely nothing, and you won't have to wait long to see egg splattered on this particular prophet's pasty pate: Weinland has proclaimed April 17 as the beginning of the Great Tribulation.
If you're interested in the sort of peripheral ideas he's on about - the Sabbath and other biblical doctrines - less toxic or off-the-wall versions can be found - such as the Church of God (Seventh Day).
The Weinland prophecies are set to crash and burn, providing sociologists of religion with an interesting case study in delusional stupidity. (In fact it wouldn't surprise me if some university grad students had been planted in Weinland-land in order to get up close to their research subject!) For the other Churches of God he's just an embarrassment, and for ex-members (like the people who frequent this blog) a painful reminder of just how loopy things could occasionally get.
124 comments:
Thanks for the plug Gavin. Settle in, people, we may have a longer fight on our hands than just April 17th.
After someone (no it actually wasn't me this time) emailed the church and pointed out page 23 of Weinland's book 2008: God's Final Witness contradicted the "non-events" of the seventh seal, the church's official reaction was to fudge dates, hem and haw, and start backing down.
This suggests, coupled with hearsay on the very lush lifestyle of Weinland and his ministers of misery, that Weinland may indeed only be in it for the money.
Which is a good thing in a way, because it reduces the likelihood of a Jonestown-type event on the 17th.
However, it increases the likelihood that members will continue to be strung along successfully, even after April 17th comes and goes without event (now the church is saying the great trib. could happen in 6 to 12 months after the 1260th day).
There are also, as I have noted repeatedly and everywhere I can, entirely too many children in the church (Weinland's main form of recruitment is via the Internet.) who are being financially and emotionally abused.
Thus, they are too young to even know who Armstrong was, and they are too naive and gullible to question Weinland's spoon-fed version of the old man as "the end-time Elijah".
Also for those interested in Weinland's past "career" with the WCG and United, a short history of Ronald Weinland
Gavin said: "UCG isn't silly enough to set actual dates."
MY COMMENT: But, they are just as silly(?). I'd call them "off the wall", just like all the other daughters of Herbie. "We trace our origins back to the church that Jesus founded"???? Don't kid yourself. The "ministers" of UCG preach that they are the only true church, because their dumb sheep believe that fallacy. They also believe that we are in the "time of the end". I know because I still have relatives sucked into that "silly" cult.
(WHAT??!) rachel said...
Gavin said: "UCG isn't silly enough to set actual dates."
MY COMMENT: But, they are just as silly(?). I'd call them "off the wall", just like all the other daughters of Herbie. "We trace our origins back to the church that Jesus founded"???? Don't kid yourself. The "ministers" of UCG preach that they are the only true church, because their dumb sheep believe that fallacy. They also believe that we are in the "time of the end". I know because I still have relatives sucked into that "silly" cult.
rachel said...
>>>I know because I still have relatives sucked into that "silly" cult.<<<
For your relatives that is very sad! But you might be surprised to learn, that your relatives believe that ever since you exited WCG, you have been "sucked into" a dangerous cult called, I Am Wiser Than My Relatives!
While I have no time for either Weiland or most of the other splinters in cog-land, I am not persuaded that those who have left WCG screaming that HWA was a charlatan, are now closer to God than ever before. In fact, if the posts here is an indication of where they are or might be heading, methinks that they have jumped out of the frying into the fire!
For example, Paul is now an atheist. Dennis is so confused, that he oscillates between the Mayan calendar and and the Age of Aquarius. Charlie has reverted to keeping Xmas and assuming that I might be rude to him. Richard has a stack of meaningless essays, which he believes succinctly sums up his WCG experience. Douglas has an extraordinary ability to reduce the most complex of issues to the term "incompetence." Neotherm is afflicted and tossed between the Quakers and Calvinism!
OTOH, our host, Gavin, bless him, continues to search for the truth, which he once had. However, his enquiring mind and love of books may bring him full circle, and he may yet discover, to his amazement, that he is back on the road to Damascus.
I know I have omitted to mention others, whose journey from Damascus has been fraught with difficulties, but you will be included in a future post.
I shall now retire to have a cup tea and a slice of cake.
The "ministers" of UCG preach that they are the only true church,
That's really not true. UCG tends to teach there are several groups doing a work right now -- and finds common ground with LCG, and even to some extent PCG.
Tom, the tea and cake consumer, noted: "you have been "sucked into" a dangerous cult called, I Am Wiser Than My Relatives!"
Tom, I think *everyone* is a member of THAT cult!
Speaking of money, you will be put out of the church if you do not tithe. The books are kept in the family. So they know who tithes and who does not.
All any Christian needs to know about such topics as this is Jesus' words in Matthew 7:14.
Concerning incompetence, someone who can't even quote Scripture right should be very careful about mentioning the word.
Dysfunctional is a good term to use. Nothing really works. Not Ron Weinland's world, nor Herbert Armstrong's world, nor United's world or Living's or Philadelphia's nor Restored's. It doesn't work. It's dysfunctional.
And...
It is impossible to be competent in a dysfunctional environment.
DON'T FORGET OUR GOOD FRIENDS THE EVANGELICALS. They share in this type of foolishness. The difference is there are about 60,000,000 of these folks!
They are players in the same game with Weinland.
Pastor Hagee has provided us with ten signs this is the of the age. For Glen Beck fans, here is an interview between them.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1910746/posts
"HAGEE: I do indeed. And I believe the Bible is very specific to the fact that we do live in the end of days."
Tom said: While I have no time for either Weinland or most of the other splinters in cog-land, I am not persuaded that those who have left WCG screaming that HWA was a charlatan, are now closer to God than ever before.
Look at it from a Christian perspective, Tom: God is the Truth, and Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Therefore, anyone who abandons religious error and accepts truth is closer to God than they were before.
Yeah, it may seem a strange idea, but in some ways Paul and Dennis are now much better Christians than anyone who follows the teachings of Herbert W. Armstrong.
I guess we may as well update the reasons why Ron Weinland will never be found to have mispoken for God.
When the clock runs out…
1. I never said Jesus would return then. I said he “could” return.
1B. God has now revealed that there is a separation between the opening of the seventh seal and the start of the Great Tribulation. God reveals the truth progressively and will continue to do so. (This is the original Gap theory as in, 3-5, no more than 10, 20 years tops...)
2. God has given us more time to finish the Work.
3. Satan has blinded your mind. We never said that.
4. We said it, but we didn’t mean it the way you took it.
5. Satan confused your mind to make you think we said that, but we didn’t. We said something else and now I’m not going to tell you what I really said. You should have listened right the first time.
6. I only meant my books would go into a second printing and return to a bookstore near you.
7. I made a mistake,but so did Moses, David, the Disciples and Paul, and they were all men after God’s own heart. So there.
Ok ok..let me get this straight.
The seventh thunder in conjunction with the fourth vial and two of the four hosemen of the pukerlips, sounds, followed by silence in heaven for about half an hour.
Ok, ok..if that's right, then when do the trombones and clarinets come in? This always confused me in WCG and Mr. Waterhouse simply told me that IF I made it to final training classes, then I would understand. However he always pronounced it "iiiiiffffffffff" Did that have hidden meaning?
ok, ok....Is this related in any way to Easter being so early this year? Has the Easter Bunny been told something that he is not sharing with us about sudden destruction? Would God use the Easter Bunny to warn us of impending doomage and are we missing the meaning of this? Indeed....could it be the Easter Bunny is early because he has to get his job done so he can be doing something MORE important in April. Is it wrong to think that maybe the EB will be the Second Witness!
Ok, ok, By the time all this unfolds, won't the seven last plagues be redundant? Can one really love your enemies while you visit them in your fury? And...if you do visit them in your fury, should you stay for dinner too?
Ok, ok, if John was the Apostle in Ephesus and Paul also said he was tight with the Ephesians and the Church at Ephesus in Revelation was praised for exposing false apostles...was John talking about Paul? Or was he talking about Ron Weinland in a month or so?
Let him who has ears to hear, hear what the spirit says to the churches I guess huh?
"However, his (Gavin) enquiring mind and love of books may bring him full circle, and he may yet discover, to his amazement, that he is back on the road to Damascus."
Paul mumbles under his breath..."not bloody likely.."
The Apostle Paul
Thanks Paul... that was my reaction too.
I had a good read of Weinland Watch. Ron is not well. The tithing to be baptised sections was pathetic. Rather Simon Magus like on the part of the gullible.
Ron was another one of those trouble causing WCG ministers who rather than be stopped or disciplined, was merely moved around like a Dave Pack to inflict himself on yet another unsuspecting congregation. I saw it a dozen times.
"The "ministers" of UCG preach that they are the only true church"
This is an out-right lie. A complete fabrication. UCG does not claim they are the only true church as RCG and LCG do.
Unfortunately, anyone can say anything they want to slander and denegrate someonelse, but that does not make the lie true.
Again this is an out right lie.
Condem when warranted ; but the need to tell falsehood and lies is inexcusable.
Thinking about guys like Ronald Weinland and others, it is hard to believe how many greedy, outright liars came out of the WCG. I guess when Jesus said that many false prophets would come, he really meant MANY!!!
"This is an out-right lie. A complete fabrication. UCG does not claim they are the only true church as RCG and LCG do."
I like that little disclaimer at the end- "as RCG and LCG do." I don't think the writer meant that UCG preaches that they are the one true church out of all of the COGs. LCG doesn't even do much of that anymore. But UCG does, like the writer stated, think that they are the one true church when compared to Catholicism and Protestantism, don't they?
The Apostle Paul
Yea, and there are a few liars here too.......
re: The one true church.
Do your homework. Check up on Bob Thiel, Dave Pack and Spanky. Also on UCG.
UCG differentiates itself in that it does not profess to be the only "true church."
I quote from above:
"Condem when warranted ; but the need to tell falsehood and lies is inexcusable."
Maybe the "Apostle" Paul should go back to seminary. Its not nice to twist and contort things for one's own misguided prejudice perspective.
When is a liar not a liar? When his lips nor his pen are not moveing.
This one true church thing has bothered me for many years, on several levels.
On the human level, it is elitism. Bad fruits are produced by elitism, and often some good people are repelled.
On a spiritual level, what gives a church leader or leaders the right to restrict God from working anywhere He pleases? When you say that you are the one true church, you're really trying to tell God where He can or cannot work!
The reason ministers teach that they are the one true church is that that sets them up for all of the authority which would come to them if their claim happened to be true. It removes them from any accountability, and sets the stage for horrible abuse.
The quickest way to ascertain that a church is really Satan's church is the fact that they teach that they are God's only true church.
Hey, I'm on a roll! Now, all I need is 6 more points showing how to recognize Satan's churches, and I'll have the magical number of 7 required for a PT article, or HWA booklet!
BB
Ok, now I'm curious!
I'm out of the UCG loop, so I'll put this out to others here who are more knowledgeable about UCG's teachings.
Have they ever, in their short history, taught that their organization is the only true church?
Have they identified other organizations as being part of the true church, as well?
(And have they said they can't do that because there are so many other organizations that are part of the true church?)
Do they take the approach of referring to the "true church" as simply being a body of people, and that their or any other organization can't be regarded as the true church because of that?
(If so, do they teach that the old-school WCG cannot be regarded as having been the true church?)
Is it ok to be a member of the UCG, but pay tithes to entities other than the UCG?
Is it ok to attend UCG services regularly, but not join or tithe to them?(Such as a situation where maybe a person wants to tithe to COG-7 and leans more toward them but because of logistics cannot attend there but UCG attendance is a logistical possibility.)
Please let me clarify a bit.
I said I was out of the UCG loop, which I do consider myself to be. I do know some people who are members of the UCG, talk to them on occasion, but we've never discussed their teachings.
On another note, I'd caution against throwing out the "Liar, liar, pants on fire!" thing here.
I sincerely doubt anyone that posts here would knowingly lie regarding what the beliefs of any of the splinter organizations are.
I can see where one might believe that the UCG considered themselves as the "true church"
That was what HWA taught about the WCG.
But hey, if the UCG teaches that was a false teaching of HWA's, and they don't teach it about their own church, all the more power to them in that regard.
Mel and all:
You can do (or not do) just about anything you want to do at UCG, as long as you dont talk about it, and "meet in peace"
However, you will never be allowed to speak, serve, pass out a hymnal or anything else, unless you tow the party line.
Technically, UCG has no membership. The only legal "members" are the elders and ministers.
UCG allows that God may be in other churches and that other churches have christians. Just dont ever try to serve those other churches (such as speaking to them, or fellowshipping with them) or you will be stripped of any duties or titles. (as has happened to Aaron Dean of late for speaking to a non UCG group at the FOT). So if you do not care about ever having a "title" then go to UCG and tithe to whoever you want, fellowship with whoever, and believe whatever (again just play "dont ask, dont tell")
Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA
Happy Easter Tom! In honor or you I went to Easter sunrise services today. As the sun broke over the mountains on this wonderful Southern CA morning, I thought of you and all things Herb. And then, in honor of your staunch defense of all things Armstorngite I sacrificed my first born to the sun-God. You should be well pleased! I have left the one and only true church on the face of the earth to worship and bow down to Molloch. At least that is what your little demons Herbvert and Meredith taught. So....HAPPY EASTER!
'...Technically, UCG has no membership. The only legal "members" are the elders and ministers...'
Wasn't this the case in WCG? What does it mean in practical terms?
Jared Olar said...
>>>Look at it from a Christian perspective, Tom:<<<
Perhaps I am the only one here capable of looking at all things from a Christian perspective, so I will.
>>>God is the Truth, and Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.<<<
Yes, I agree.
>>>Therefore, anyone who abandons religious error and accepts truth is closer to God than they were before.<<<
Yes, I agree.
>>>Yeah, it may seem a strange idea, but in some ways Paul and Dennis are now much better Christians than anyone who follows the teachings of Herbert W. Armstrong.<<<
Here is where we must disagree. It is indeed a very strange idea to believe that Paul, who style himself an atheist, is now a better Christian than before he was an atheist! For according to my dictionary, atheism is the belief or doctrine that there is no God.
As for Dennis, some of his posts deny the Genesis account of creation. He even once described the Apostle Paul as a braggart, and has supported Dan Brown's blasphemous and perverse notion that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene.
Dennis appears to be much more comfortable with the Mayan religious tradition and the sign of the zodiac, than with the teachings of the bible. Though when he thinks the bible supports his misguided opinions, he is unscrupulous in quoting it.
While I accept that there were many errors, or if you prefer, false doctrines, in WCG, which Dennis supported and preached from the pulpit, there were also many sound doctrines. So to exit WCG and abandon the good and the bad, is to throw the baby out with the bath water. And anyone who done so is not close to God!
Get it right:
"As for Dennis, some of his posts deny the Genesis account of creation."
You bet. The Creation account is mythology with the purpose of establishing the Hebrew God as supreme over the gods of nature. "Our God made your gods." The El of Genesis is the head of the Council of lesser gods. When El says, "Let us make man in our image" he is not talking to Jesus or inplying the Christian Trinity.
When the lessers fear "man will become like one of us and know good from evil..." (like that's bad but evidently only knowledge for the gods), it's the lessor gods of the council being offended by man.
The story of the Fall is about the fall of women (goddess worship) and matriarchy and the rise of patriarchy and priesthoods. From now on women only have babies painfully and say "yes sir" to her husband, who owns her.
The myth of Cain and Able is also a show that veggies and fertility religion is out and meat, priests and temple waste is in.
"He even once described the Apostle Paul as a braggart"
"For I consider that I am not at all inferior to the most eminent apostles". ...."As the truth of Christ is in me, no one shall stop me from this boasting in the regions of Achaia." 2 Corinthians 11:5,10
".... but I labored more abundantly than they all...". 1Corinthians 15:9,10
"But from those who seemed to be something - whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man- for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me.... and when James, Cephas (Peter), and John, who seemed to be pillars..." Galatians 2:6,7,9
Add to this his statements about being the Pharisee of the Pharisees, above all his other students and just the smartest, most humble guy on the planet, of whom the Gospels say nothing and , yes he's a braggart. He's also a liar, often telling others he was not lying because he heard it often, and was called that long long ago by others besides me.
"and has supported Dan Brown's blasphemous and perverse notion that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene."
It's a story. I do not believe the story line. However, Gospels that didn't make the cut indicate a less than platonic relationship with Mary and Jesus. Who knows...
"Dennis appears to be much more comfortable with the Mayan religious tradition"
I care not for the Mayan Calendar and know little about it save for my interests in Native cultures. 2012 is another meme around which humans can rally to practice believing one can know the future.
" and the sign of the zodiac,"
The studies of astro-theology and astro-paleontology, while unknown to most, can tell you a lot about human culture and religions. Don't forget that God asked Job if was so smart, did he place Orion and Pleides in the heavens did he control the sun's journey through the signs of the of the zodiac. Mazzoroth is a Hebrew word which means in general "The Constellations of the Zodiac." The Bible is full of astro-thelogical stories that happen every night and year in the sky and were brought down to earth and literalized.
"Though when he thinks the bible supports his misguided opinions, he is unscrupulous in quoting it."
Tell you what Tom...You don't judge the sincerity or intent of my journey and I'll not speak of yours.
Tom finally blurted it out:
"Perhaps I am the only one here capable of looking at all things from a Christian perspective, so I will."
Honestly, how sad.
PS Tom.
I have stood in the synagogue at Sepphoris looking down at the uncovered mosaic floor...and what did I behold...
"Mosaic floors in ancient synagogues
Six ancient synagogue mosaics containing images of the zodiac have been discovered in Israel. These pavements date from the fourth to the sixth century and include Hammat Tiberias, Beit Alpha, Huseifa, Susiya, Naaran, and the recently discovered mosaic at Sepphoris.
The zodiac was adapted from pagan art to represent the yearly calendrical cycle. This is made explicit at Sepphoris, where both the zodiac signs and personifications of the months are illustrated. In the Jewish calendar the months follow the signs exactly. The images of the sun god symbolizes the day; the background of the crescent moon and stars represent the night. Thus, the zodiac calendar was employed as a significant framework for the annual synagogue rituals. This recurrence of the zodiac designs in a number of synagogue mosaics indicates its relevance to religious thought and its importance in synagogue rituals."
Don't be so naive about how the people of the book use the book and wrote it.
>>>Paul mumbles under his breath..."not bloody likely.."<<<<
AND
>>>Gavin said...
Thanks Paul... that was my reaction too.<<<
***********************************
A predictable reaction, if I may be so bold to say so!
However, I appreciation that there are many dangers on the road to Damascus: the journey is therefore not for the faint hearted.
Boy, 15, nailed to a cross as Filipinos whip and crucify themselves in gory Good Friday ritual
Dozens of Filipinos, including the boy and an 18-year-old girl, were nailed to crosses and scores more whipped their backs into a bloody pulp as the country's devout Roman Catholics marked Good Friday.
Makes little colored eggs and peeps look good to me!
"UCG differentiates itself in that it does not profess to be the only "true church."
So UCG recognizes that Catholics are Christians? That's great news- it means UCG is maturing a bit. They do, don't they? Don't they?
Paul
Perry Tuttle said...
"The "ministers" of UCG preach that they are the only true church"
This is an out-right lie. A complete fabrication. UCG does not claim they are the only true church as RCG and LCG do.
Unfortunately, anyone can say anything they want to slander and denegrate someonelse, but that does not make the lie true.
Again this is an out right lie.
MY COMMENT: Then, what does THIS mean? "We trace our origins back to the church that Jesus founded". Give me a break!! If that doesn't mean "we're" the true church, I don't know what does. You are naive. How long have you benn sucked into the "one true church"? I was with UCG from it's inception. I KNOW what they have said. I KNOW how they think. The "ministers" believe they have been "ordained" by God. The "members" believe they have been called by God. They bad-mouth Meredith's cult and all other cults. We ALL did. They still teach many of Herbie's false doctrines, such as "tithing", "ordinations", "deacons", "ministers", "British Israel", the "sacred"(Jewish)calendar, and I know for a fact they still dream of the "place of safety", and "we are in the time of the end"(especially if a Democrat is elected president in Manasseh). So don't call ME a liar! Look at your "ministers"...the sons of hell!
I saw a comment recently to the effect that UCG may no longer preach that they're the one true church, but the laity likes to walk around telling people they're not true christians unless they attend United.
So there can be other churches besides the one true church; these other churches just don't have true christians in them. Is that a sign they're "maturing"??
WW said:
"So there can be other churches besides the one true church; these other churches just don't have true christians in them. Is that a sign they're "maturing"??"
Yes, they are perfecting their mythologies.
I would love to meet a truly balanced, authentic, integrated, educated, Jesus like (not Christ-like), non judgemental, cheek turning, enemy loving, coat sharing, sermon on the mount or plain depending on your Gospel, "true Christian."
I suspect they would be rounded up and put out of the true church for not being able to indentify or promote the endtime terrors that will teach us all to love Jesus or burn forever in hell.
THIS JUST IN: The Two Witnesses
Annon:
"Ron Weinland and his wife- soon to be announced - how is that for a team -.keeping it in the family - heard it from the clothes-line...ck this one out!"
Film at 11
The one true church (if there ever was one) was in the first century and it wasn't called a church. The word "ecclesia" does not translate to "church" but would be closer to "called out ones".
Besides all that, "the work" that the ministers of misery preach about to extort money from their followers was a "short work" (Rom. 9:28) that was completed by Paul.
That's why Paul exhorted them to not forsake the assembly, because "the time was short" and they could see the day approaching when there would be no assembly.
Every assembly and "church" since that time are merely businesses run by "wolves in sheep's clothing" and who Paul warned them about. That is, if you believe what Paul said.
Anon. by the clothesline:
The church must be stepping up its plans. The "sooper big sekrit" of the 2Wit. being the little woman wasn't supposed to be let out of the bag till closer to Passover.
It's been pretty much open knowledge on the forums for a few months now though (I've seen several different people refer to it).
WW said: "The church must be stepping up its plans. The "sooper big sekrit" of the 2Wit. being the little woman wasn't supposed to be let out of the bag till closer to Passover."
Whew...that means the Tribulation is probably on hold.
A "real" or "true" Christian is going to be absolutely delighted to find, and praising God for any other true Christians that he or she might encounter anywhere on the face of the earth, regardless as to which "church" such Christians do or do not attend. There's no elitism involved. Human elitism is totally counter to what Jesus taught.
A true Christian is also deeply saddened at the prospect or possibility of any other human being suffering eternal punishment.
There's no gloating involved.
The ACOGs have established this "true church" thing soley to justify their exclusive lordship or authority over a certain subset of aspiring Christians. The apostle (or ST.) Paul obviously allowed people to listen to other preachers, although he warned them against what these others taught. The NT also warns against Nicolaitanes, who exercised cruel dominion over their followers.
I hope everybody is visiting Otagosh. Henry Sturke has some insightful comments on reading Galatians in original Greek, and seeing and understanding that Paul seems to be warning the Galatians about teachers who bore an uncanny similarity to old school WCG.
BB
I often times forget to say thank you to where it is needed.
Thank you for this blog.
Without this blog i would all to often forget about the tradgedy that was and still is armstrongism.
We have been granted release. For my liberty and for all of those who have mangaed to escape, i glorify Jesus Christ. Only His sufficiency could have brought about our liberty from the chains of armstrongism.
Thank you for the blog!
DennisDiehl said...
Tom>>>"As for Dennis, some of his posts deny the Genesis account of creation."<<<
DD>>>You bet. The Creation account is mythology with the purpose of establishing the Hebrew God as supreme over the gods of nature.<<<
So Jared Olar was wrong when he said, "it may seem a strange idea, but in some ways Paul and Dennis are now much better Christians than anyone who follows the teachings of Herbert W. Armstrong?"
To be a Christian, one must accept the Genesis account of creation as fact, and the whole bible as the divine inspired word of God, which you don't!
Personally, I see no point in commenting on what signs of the zodiac were discovered in Jewish synagogues, and your interpretation of their relevance to the teaching of Jesus. For by the time of Christ's birth, the Jewish people had once again departed from the proper worship of God, by establishing various sects, such as the Pharisees and Sadducees, whom Jesus condemned as hypocrites.
You once said, you wish you had never heard of WCG. Sadly, we can't turn the clock back, so you have to deal with the consequences of rejecting the grace of God.
Tom said:
"To be a Christian, one must accept the Genesis account of creation as fact, and the whole bible as the divine inspired word of God, which you don't!"
Uh, no Tom, that would be to be piously convicted but marginally informed.
"So there can be other churches besides the one true church; these other churches just don't have true christians in them."
That's how the UCG, ICG, and LCG (and others) who don't proclaim that they are The True Church out of all the other COG's (of course, everyone of them freely admits that they are the True Chruch when it comes to the rest of Christendom)still try to maintain some sort of pathetic "top dog" status. In ICG, we weren't the Only True Church- but if you didn't "get behind" and "support Garner Ted in the Work" then you would have to answer to God. Really. LCG, the same. Meredith grudgingly admits that the other COG's are part of God's Church, but LCG is the "spearhead" of the Work. Draw your own conclusions. I have never heard UCG claim that they are the Only True Church of God, but I'm sure in the minds of some it is, due to their large membership.
Unlike PCG and RCG, they don't claim the crown- but don't think that this is some sort of noble view based on a desire for unity, for they all try to bone themselves up as better than the others. It's pathetic...no different than any other small cultic sect, or groups of sects.
The Apostle Paul
Tom Said:
"Personally, I see no point in commenting on what signs of the zodiac were discovered in Jewish synagogues, and your interpretation of their relevance to the teaching of Jesus."
That's because what I showed you from Job and Jewish thinking confused your idea that the knowledge of the story told by the
Sun's journey through the Zodiac has nothing to do with the Bible or that knowledge of the stars and the zodiac was foreign to the Bible characters.
Weinland rhymes with Rheinland.
I suspect that the surname, Weinland, was originally Deutsch.
May the connection never materialise.
Mind you,a drop of wine from the Pfalz goes down a treat.
As someone remarked to me recently, the Two Witnesses will probably have Jewish linkages,not Gentilic provenances like Ron Weinland.
Jorghheinz
Weinland rhymes with Rheinland.
I suspect that the surname, Weinland, was originally Deutsch.
May the connection never materialise.
Mind you,a drop of wine from the Pfalz goes down a treat.
As someone remarked to me recently, the Two Witnesses will probably have Jewish linkages,not Gentilic provenances like Ron Weinland.
Jorghheinz
Dennis,
Tom must have read "God's Voice in the Sky"br/>It must be true because it was popular in the wcg back in the 90's. Some people will never be convinced that all of Christianity was derived from paganism.
All Hebrew relgion comes from those before it. Nothing springs from a vacuum. Israel was terribly polytheistic and it took the entire OT to evolve El and the Elohim into one Yhvh who was more than just a local tribal deity.
WHen you look at the description of a Cherub with the face of a Man (AQUARIUS) a Lion (LEO) a bull (TAURUS) and an Eagel (AQUILLA) and realize these are the four signs each three apart representing Winter, Spring, Summer and Fall, you get a real idea of where these heavenly beasts came from.
It's a great story.
If I'm the one who's writing the "meaningless essays" -- thanks for the compassionate dose of self-affirmation. :--<
Richard, the only one you have to be honest and true to is yourself. Your experiences are valuable and your perspectives meaningful to many.
There are certain ones who frequent AW whose way of being is just about every reason why most don't wish to bother with organized religious belief and practice. Eternity in their constant presence would be hell
Just be you!
"Unlike PCG and RCG, they (UCG)don't claim the crown- but don't think that this is some sort of noble view based on a desire for unity, for they all try to bone themselves up as better than the others. It's pathetic...no different than any other small cultic sect, or groups of sects.
The Apostle Paul"
Pure and utter nonsense. Lies to the fullest extent. Museings from one who has no idea what he is saying. (aka a moron).
"I was with UCG from it's inception. I KNOW what they have said. I KNOW how they think. The "ministers" believe they have been "ordained" by God. The "members" believe they have been called by God. They bad-mouth Meredith's cult and all other cults."
These statements, while they may be the opinion of the writer are not infact truth.
I also am familiar with the UCG, and can say "truthfully", that they are fictitious . lies.
I don't know why some must resort to lies and fabrication to promote there own agenda.
What religious organization's ministers with half a brain would not believe they had been "ordained" according to their beliefs?
What religious organization's members do not believe they are following the truth?
Any Idiot would admit they would not be following an organization that was espousing falsehood.
No my friend, your problem seems to be intollerance of those who wish or choose to believe what is contrary to what you believe.
But your Lies are what minimizes the validity of your "opinion".
UCG could care less about what Rod Meridith or anyone else thinks. They don't need to "bad mouth" him, as your lie states.
They have their own course of action, and are pursing it, regardless of your nonsensical opinons.
Hatred,as well as slander hinders good mental health.
Tom said: So Jared Olar was wrong when he said, "it may seem a strange idea, but in some ways Paul and Dennis are now much better Christians than anyone who follows the teachings of Herbert W. Armstrong?"
Hey, I did say, "in some ways."
To be a Christian, one must accept the Genesis account of creation as fact, and the whole bible as the divine inspired word of God, which you don't!
Those are things that Christians believe (though much depends on what one means by "accept the Genesis account of creation as fact" and "the whole Bible" and "divine inspired Word of God"), but they are not what makes one a Christian.
Personally, I see no point in commenting on what signs of the zodiac were discovered in Jewish synagogues, and your interpretation of their relevance to the teaching of Jesus. For by the time of Christ's birth, the Jewish people had once again departed from the proper worship of God, by establishing various sects, such as the Pharisees and Sadducees, whom Jesus condemned as hypocrites.
The same Jesus also said, "The Scribes and the Pharisees sit in the seat of Moses."
Anyway, while Dennis overemphasises the significance of ancient astrology for understanding the meaning and development of Judaism and Christianity, it is undeniable that the degree of influence of ancient astrology in the development of Judaism and Christianity was not insignificant. Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger's book "The Spirit of the Liturgy" has some good and enlightening exploration and discussion of the relationship between Christian liturgy and cosmic signs and lessons and meanings.
Perhaps I am the only one here capable of looking at all things from a Christian perspective, so I will.
Or perhaps not.
"Lies to the fullest extent."
That's a pretty big lie. I mean, "fullest" AND "extent." Hell, I would have settled with "big" and "fat" but you have go all godly on me and expose just how bad my lies really are. It's like using "extreme prejudice." It's chilling.
"General, I authorize you to bomb the shit out of Paraguay. To the Fullest Extent."
See what I mean? It's instant drama!
The Apostle Paul
lie
n.
1. A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
2. Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.
v. lied, ly·ing (lng), lies
v.intr.
1. To present false information with the intention of deceiving.
2. To convey a false image or impression: Appearances often lie.
v.tr.
To cause to be in a specific condition or affect in a specific way by telling falsehoods: You have lied yourself into trouble.
Idiom:
lie through one's teeth
To lie outrageously or brazenly
.A lie is a lie. Big or Small. Still a fabrication. Not condusive for good mental health. Nuff said.
Dennis wrote,
"You bet. The Creation account is mythology with the purpose of establishing the Hebrew God as supreme over the gods of nature. "Our God made your gods." The El of Genesis is the head of the Council of lesser gods. When El says, "Let us make man in our image" he is not talking to Jesus or inplying the Christian Trinity."
Yes and no. The Hebrew God is GREATER then all of the lesser gods.
But the "us" is both Father God and Mother God. An all male priesthood, the patriarchy, edited the Mother God out of the Tanakh.
A significant portion of the creation story in Genesis is true. It is a matter of figuring out what an all male priesthood added and what these guys deleted.
God does reveal who He is and who She is in the Tanakh; and a few other places.
The common people never gave up a belief in the Mother God. Please see the recent article in The Biblical Archaeological Review, "A Temple Built for Two"
http://www.bib-arch.org/bswb_BAR/indexBAR.asp?PubID=BSBA&Volume=34&Issue=2&ArticleID=11
But the main point is that despite the fact that Israel and Judah borrowed much of their religion from the Canaanites (including the sacrifices, Passover, and much of the law of Moses) there is a core in the Tanakh that is genuine.
Jared Olar said...
TOM>>>Perhaps I am the only one here capable of looking at all things from a Christian perspective, so I will.<<<
JO>>>Or perhaps not.<<<
I said "perhaps," because there may be some luckers who are equally capable of looking at things from a Christian perspective.
Jared Olar said...
>>>The same Jesus also said, "The Scribes and the Pharisees sit in the seat of Moses."<<<
They sat in Moses' seat, not because they were appointed to that office, it was hijacked by them. Or to quote Sallust, "The intrigues of ambition won the prizes due to merit." Doesn't that phrase have a haunting resonance in the consciences of both the current and former ministers in cog-land?
The Pharisees and Sadducees were described by Jesus as hypocrites, because they "talk the talk, but didn't walk the walk." Not much has changed, for today many do the same! But they will not be in God's kingdom, for Jesus also warned: "For I say unto you, that except you righteousness shall EXCEED the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."
So all atheists; all Sabbath breakers; all celebrators of Easter and Xmas; all despisers of the Holy Scriptures, by equating it with pagan writings, and haters of HWA will not be in God's kingdom!
Nothing wrong with being a little bit Adventist. They certainly know how to celebrate:
http://adventistsnotcult.blogspot.com/
Gavin, you must have a huge xCG readership.
That TV news poll is rather frightening, given the amount of people who get their news from "Fixed News".
No news channel in history has ever taken such liberties with the facts and reality as the Fox Network has.
So all atheists; all Sabbath breakers; all celebrators of Easter and Xmas; all despisers of the Holy Scriptures, by equating it with pagan writings, and haters of HWA will not be in God's kingdom!
Not that anyone hates Herbert Armstrong: He was a false prophet and those who obey Jesus would beware of him, but the statement above is a non sequitur. Herbert Armstrong was a Sabbath breaker. He also didn't seem much to really honor those "Holy Scriptures" -- ignored a lot of them, in fact. He lied, he covered up, he broke his promises.
We also need to take into account the company he kept: It wasn't just the petty despots like Ferdinand Marcos and Imelda with billions in Swiss Banks and 7,000 pairs of shoes. It was also the fact that Herbert Armstrong surrounded himself by all those "hirelings" who fawned all over him until they didn't have to any more -- people like Roderick Meredith, a terrible false prophet in his own right. Then there was Stanley Rader, all in a class by himself. If we are known by the company we keep, Herbert Armstrong certainly showed who and what he was, and it wasn't someone who had abundant mercy for the meek and poor and someone who spent a lot of time with them. Instead, he was narcissistic and arrogant and paid his paramours $100,000 a pop and gave them Steuben for photo ops.
Herbert Armstrong himself was a hireling, not just of the Church of God, Seventh Day. He was a hireling who used the Billions WCGers contributed as his own personal cash machine for which he had to give absolutely no accountancy to anyone. He went manic in his bipolar disease and bought all those things he just had to have, such as $68,000 worth of silver / gold place settings from Harrod's. It's too bad we all contributed to this hireling's self-medication, including, but not restricted to his fondness for Harvey's Bristol Creame. But then he didn't much manage his disease of alcoholism well either and we paid dearly for it.
Now Elymas should have given us a clue: As a false prophet, Elymas was imparted blindness for a season through the Apostle Paul. It has not escaped our notice that Herbert Armstrong was legally blind at the time of his death, unlike Moses who had a good eye [for the ladies, in particular] up to the end. Roderick Meredith escaped judgment in the Seventies with "corrective laser surgery" completely violating the eschatology of the WCG of that time, but with his diabetes, it seems that he might not escape at least serious deterioration this time.
and haters of HWA will not be in God's kingdom!
There we go: Adding to Scripture. Check Revelation 22. Herbert Armstrong is not mentioned there, but liars such as those who are filled with anger and hate the truth -- those who are liars -- are. May the curse to those who add to Scripture be added to the one who did so here.
Well.
None of us would expect a Biblical illiterate to understand.
So be it.
Tom can't seem to spot the Pharisee in himself. Although history shows that the portrayal of Pharisees in the Gospels to be highly inaccurate and Paul's rendition of what they taught or felt about their own scriptures, the law, how they viewed it and what they did or didn't do to their own prophets is bogus.
So. Herbert Armstrong had his 1975. Ron Weinland has his 2008.
What's the difference?
" Herbert Armstrong had his 1975. Ron Weinland has his 2008.
What's the difference?"
33 Years.
Perhaps something could be made of that. Wasn't that supposedly the age of Jesus when he was crucified?
Tired Skeptic asked:
"So. Herbert Armstrong had his 1975. Ron Weinland has his 2008.
What's the difference?"
The median age of the membership. :-(
"So. Herbert Armstrong had his 1975. Ron Weinland has his 2008"
Well I think it's obvious what God is doing. The difference is 33 years and 33 is 3+3=6 The number of man. It's also 3x3 which is one less than the 10 plagues and 2 more than the perfect number 7. It's also 3/3=1 God is one.
I think it's pretty obvious how God has worked out the interval of 33 years to set up the end of the Age for real.
"So all atheists; all Sabbath breakers; all celebrators of Easter and Xmas; all despisers of the Holy Scriptures, by equating it with pagan writings, and haters of HWA will not be in God's kingdom!"
Theres 99.999% of the world right there. Nice that you have shown a mass judgement to the entire world. Who put you in the place of God, Tom? Did God say HWA haters wouldn't be in the Kingdom, or did you? Who gave you the right to make that judgement?
If Tom would look at 1 Corinthians 6, he would see that the Bible is clear about who will not inherit the Kingdom of God: Lets see. Immoral, idolaters, adulterers, theives, greedy people, drunks, slanderers, swindlers, to name a few. What you dont find here is emphasis on celebrators of easter, christmas, and "haters" of a man named Herbert Armstrong.
If Tom was God, his way of judging people's entrance into the Kingdom is clear. "Did you keep Christmas? Did you Keep Easter? Did you accept HWA? Do you hate Herbert Armstrong? DO YOU?" Seriously, does one REALLY think that is God's standard for admittance into his kingdom? That's spiritually immature thinking. Tom is thinking like a pharisee, and doesn't even recognize that he is thinking, acting, and speaking like a pharisee - in fact a pharisee of pharisees - focusing on the standards of traditions and law keeping, days, and the physical instead of focusing on the matters of the spiritual - which, if one does a good exegesis of the bible, and especially the book of John, was what Jesus was trying to do - get them to quit thinking in the manner of the physical, including traditions and days, and start looking at the reality of the spiritual, now that Christ had come.
Tom, I'm glad you don't sit on the throne of God casting judgement on the world. With you in charge, no one would stand, and you would condemn without a second thought based on observances on days and seasons and years. But I don't have to worry about that - in my belief and worldview, Christ is on the throne and will be the one casting judgement, not you. Thank God for that.
"The Pharisees and Sadducees were described by Jesus as hypocrites, because they "talk the talk, but didn't walk the walk.""
But according to your religion, which is Armstrongism, they did walk the walk. Just as you walk the walk, Tom. Yes, there were certain burdens they laid on the sheep that they exempted themselves from, but overall, they Kept God's Law which is what Herbert commanded us from the beginning. The primary reason Christ denounced them was because they, just like Armstrongism itself, were devoid of love and mercy; they had no compassion outside of friends and family, and certainly none if the Law didn't require it.
'I desire mercy and not sacrifice'....this saying is a complete mystery to people like Tom. I don't think they will ever truly understand it. They scratch their heads and return to studying the Law and promises of power and glory and the destruction of the unbeliever.
The Apostle Paul
"Haters of HWA will not be in God's kingdom."
Honestly. Propping up HWA as any type of criterion is stunningly shallow.
One of my greatest concerns about HWA was his inability to maintain normal, loving relationships, particularly within his own family.
I don't recall a lot of reference to his parents in his sermons or teachings. His uncle, yes. Interesting, if not all that big of a deal. His brother was a mysterious hymn-writer in the church world, nothing more. Elders from his former Sabbatarian fellowships gave evidence of his inability to cooperate or be subject to authority.
He married an extended family member. He is known to have complained, to more than one person, about how she didn't fulfill his needs. He later watched her die without proper medical attention, and his own son expressed anger at what GTA described as coldness over the whole episode. Ironically, even though he opposed medical treatment that could/would have saved the lives of his son and his wife, HWA welcomed it for himself when he was seriously ill many years later.
He had no lasting relationship with his daughters, and, of course, there were the allegations of an incestuous relationship with one. I personally know two people who, during their college years, heard that lurid tale via two different HWA grandchildren. Both of the people I heard it from, from different time periods, left the college and church shortly thereafter, but I didn't know the reason until I spoke to them (separately) years later. It was during a time period when I first heard of it, and, after carefully and quietly verifying it via several other unconnected sources, I sadly packed my bags and moved on, as well.
I'm being sincere when I say "sadly." Who would have imagined such things?
His one-time heir apparent having been killed in an automobile accident, HWA turned to the younger son to be his partner and presumed successor, but that relationship was eventually destroyed in anger and acrimony.
He later announced to the church that God had provided a loving, deeply converted young bride for him, to share his golden years, but that relationship also ended in shambles.
"He will turn the hearts of the fathers to the children," and vice versa. Sorry, but if there was anyone to whom that simply never applied, it was and is HWA.
He strikes me as someone who acknowledged the theory of what he was saying, but was incapable of putting it into practice. Yet, somehow, seemingly intelligent men (and women) excused it all to make the square peg fit into the round "Apostle" hole. They're still doing it.
I always thought that someone who was truly "converted," to use the vernacular, let alone the presumed human leader of the church, would have been a walking model of Christian living. But talking the talk seemed more his style, and I came away, in the end, terribly disappointed in his hypocrisy in this area, and that of his apologists.
It's sad, really, and I don't hate him for it. But it's too blatant to be ignored.
To this day, I have never heard anyone present a lucid defense of this sad litany of destroyed relationships. There is not one, that I know of, and it must leave even his most ardent defenders scratching their heads over the clear contradiction of it all.
"Haters of HWA will not be in God's kingdom?" Give it up, Mr. Mahon. You just sound plain silly.
All of God's prophets, disciples, apostles , kings, priests and family members in the Bible had very tough interpersonal relations. Most were disfunctional. They married prostitutes, multiple women, had too many kids with too much drama, hung around guys too much with no female company and were usually single telling everyone how to have good marriages and family life. They saw visions, beat themselves, lied a lot, were all things to all men and declared themselves the best of the best.
The whole Bible is dysfunctional in it's example. For the past two thousand years we have a single immortal Jesus living at home with his dad along with what may be thought of as an uncle. No female deities, no mom, no feminine influences. Perhaps if there was a goddess in all this, we could cut all the mess with the Two Witnesses and the Book of Revelation and just have a picnic.
Tom wrote, "Perhaps I am the only one here capable of looking at all things from a Christian perspective, so I will."
And then he wrote...
"I said 'perhaps,' because there may be some luckers who are equally capable of looking at things from a Christian perspective."
My comment:
Only "equally"?
Does that mean there is no one who is capable of having a more insightful Christian perspective than he does?
Oh, the hubris!
Good "luckers" with that hubris.
Anonymous said...
"Well I think it's obvious what God is doing. The difference is 33 years and 33 is 3+3=6 The number of man. It's also 3x3 which is one less than the 10 plagues and 2 more than the perfect number 7. It's also 3/3=1 God is one.
I think it's pretty obvious how God has worked out the interval of 33 years to set up the end of the Age for real."
What the....???
"What the....???"
I was playing Gerald Waterhouse:)
Tom wrote: "Neotherm is afflicted and tossed between the Quakers and Calvinism!"
I am not sure what this refers to. The affliction I have written about was perpetrated by Armstrongists.
I do not feel "tossed" between being a friend and Moderate Calvinism. Friends have a variety of theological positions but still retain Quaker practices.
-- Neo
Ripley,
Your testimony is truthful, and has been verified by many people, and in many different ways. However, there are those who will choose to believe that God called HWA out from COG-7 to restore the true doctrines, they will deny that the incest ever happened, attribute the failed relationships to life's tragedies or the work of Satan, and somehow retain an image of HWA as being God's suffering, but pure, Apostle. They must do this in order to deal with the fact that they have been betrayed, and spiritually raped by the one whom they saw as their mentor, or spiritual father.
Some of life's pains (such as spiritual rape) are so great and grievous that only God or death can take them away. The problem becomes, how does one trust again, and this unfortunately extends right up to God, since the rapist was seen as being an agent of God. It is a long, difficult process to discover the real God, and His true nature, and to establish a bonifide relationship. Most people give up, either temporarily or permanently. It's so disorienting to the psyche, that some repress the detail of the spiritual rape, and continue to revere the rapist.
I will agree with Tom on one point, and that concerns the hatred of HWA. I don't condone his actions, but I've found that I needed to cut loose all of the negativity and hatred which I once felt for the man. And, here's why: Jesus, if you read the story of the passion in all of the gospels, never spoke a word of hatred to Judas, whom most religious folk regard as being the most dastardly and traiterous figure in the entire history of mankind. That pretty much says it all for me. It's not our job to pass final judgement on HWA. We all know the ways in which his sins affected each one of us. And, part of recovery is the freedom to express outrage and anger. But, hatred is such a horrible, negative, destructive emotion that can cloud and ruin whatever we have left of our lives. It's best to be healed of that.
BB
Back to Weinland. The horror stories, they are a-comin' out now!
Apart from Paul and Douglas, everyone else who replied to my post to Jared Olar decided to remain anonymous. I really don't have much interest in communicating with people who, for some inexplicable reason, have chosen to cowardly hide behind various forms of anonymities.
HWA, despite his faults, was a servant of Christ. And those who attack the servants of Christ are told: "It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones."
What is the fate that is worse than death?
Tom said: I said "perhaps," because there may be some lurkers who are equally capable of looking at things from a Christian perspective.
Equally capable, no doubt. But some lurkers, and posters, may be more capable of looking at things from a Christian perspective.
They sat in Moses' seat, not because they were appointed to that office, it was hijacked by them.
Jesus had a lot of strong criticism of the Scribes and Pharisees, but somehow He missed that one. Instead, He went so far as to say people should do whatever the Scribes and Pharisees said, but not to follow their example.
But they will not be in God's kingdom, for Jesus also warned: "For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall EXCEED the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."
So all atheists; all Sabbath breakers; all celebrators of Easter and Xmas; all despisers of the Holy Scriptures, by equating it with pagan writings, and haters of HWA will not be in God's kingdom!
It’s not just haters of Herbert Armstrong who won’t inherit the Kingdom, it’s haters of anybody. However, criticism of Herbert Armstrong and rejection of his false doctrines is not hatred of Herbert Armstrong.
Neither is their logical or biblical warrant for excluding from the Kingdom those who celebrate the Resurrection and the Virginal Conception and Birth of Jesus. (Of course it's only to be expected that Armstrongists not celebrate those things, as they do not believe in the resurrection of Christ's body or in the incarnation of the Logos.)
As for Sabbath breakers, let’s remember that there is only one person in the entire New Testament who is ever criticized for breaking the Sabbath -– Jesus. But if Jesus isn’t righteous enough to be in the Kingdom, that consigns the entire human race to final damnation.
Anonymous said: Although history shows that the portrayal of Pharisees in the Gospels to be highly inaccurate and Paul's rendition of what they taught or felt about their own scriptures, the law, how they viewed it and what they did or didn't do to their own prophets is bogus.
I've read that history -- it's the same history that shows Christopher Columbus proved the world was round.
Bamboo Bends said: No news channel in history has ever taken such liberties with the facts and reality as the Fox Network has.
Well, except for Al-Jazeera, or the BBC, or CNN, or NBC, or ABC, or CBS . . . . To varying degrees, all the major news media take liberties with facts and reality, and inject bias and slant, some of it unintentional, some of it intentional. I don’t have cable, but I’ve occasionally seen Fox News on other people’s t.v. sets. It doesn’t seem that Fox is any better or worse than the others – they all seem to be equally shallow, slanted, sensationalistic, and driven by a “bread-and-circuses” emphasis and by advertising dollars. Whatever the channel or network, getting one’s news solely from t.v. has never been a very wise thing to do.
Anonymous said: For the past two thousand years we have a single immortal Jesus living at home with his dad along with what may be thought of as an uncle.
That’s probably one of the more egregiously inaccurate ways of characterising the doctrines of the Trinity, Incarnation, and nuptial bond between Christ and the Church.
No female deities, no mom, no feminine influences.
Yes, just one deity, and one who is neither male nor female. Christianity does present a “mom” and “feminine influences,” though -- the Church, Heavenly Jerusalem, the Woman of Revelation 12, the Blessed Virgin Mary. Not deities, of course.
Perhaps if there was a goddess in all this, we could cut all the mess with the Two Witnesses and the Book of Revelation and just have a picnic.
Mankind has already had more than enough experience with religions in which the gods copulate. Religions in which sex acts are sacraments have not been good for women or men or children.
Desiderius Erasmus said...
"I was with UCG from it's inception. I KNOW what they have said. I KNOW how they think. The "ministers" believe they have been "ordained" by God. The "members" believe they have been called by God. They bad-mouth Meredith's cult and all other cults."
These statements, while they may be the opinion of the writer are not infact truth.
MY COMMENT: What's not true about them? I was there. I lived it. Been there, done that.
I also am familiar with the UCG, and can say "truthfully", that they are fictitious . lies.
MY COMMENT: Yes, the "ministers" of UCG are fictitious liars. I agree, Look where they came from. The old WCG under the controls of HWA. ALL of them were "Yes" men. When they saw that there was a possibility of losing their jobs and paychecks, they had to make a move. I know firsthand that one of the top dogs on the COE would not have left WCG if there wasn't enough suckers to join UCG. He told me so. I'm sure that he will be the next president of UCG. He's been bucking for it.
I don't know why some must resort to lies and fabrication to promote there own agenda.
MY COMMENT: I have no agenda, so why would I lie?
What religious organization's ministers with half a brain would not believe they had been "ordained" according to their beliefs?
MY COMMENT: It's a lie!
What religious organization's members do not believe they are following the truth?
MY COMMENT: Everyone believes they are following the truth. Someone has to be following lies...right?
Any Idiot would admit they would not be following an organization that was espousing falsehood.
MY COMMENT: ALL idiots think that they have the truth.
No my friend, your problem seems to be intollerance of those who wish or choose to believe what is contrary to what you believe.
MY COMMENT: What do you know about my beliefs? Your's are along the party line I assume, or you wouldn't be defending UCG. Will you defend PCG, or LCG? I thought not.
But your Lies are what minimizes the validity of your "opinion".
MY COMMENT: I lie not.
UCG could care less about what Rod Meridith or anyone else thinks.
MY COMMENT: Just as long as he doesn't draw their tithe payers away.
They don't need to "bad mouth" him, as your lie states.
MY COMMENT: You are so naive, my friend. They "bad mouth" other groups. I used to do the same right along with them. I remember a UCG picnic. A couple from LCG showed up to join all of us for fun, food, and games. A "deacon's" wife said, "What are THEY doing here?. It's still the same old exclusivist attitude today.
They have their own course of action, and are pursing it, regardless of your nonsensical opinons.
MY COMMENT: Yeah, what is that? Spread the "gospel", no doubt. Preach the "kingdom". I think all that was done by their mentor. Where did it get HIM? Anyone can see how willy-nilly UCG is. They have to be politically correct so they don't offend anyone...publicly, that is.
Hatred,as well as slander hinders good mental health.
MY COMMENT: So does being self-righteous, a hypocrite, and hiding your eyes from the truth..
An excerpt from "Shadows of WCG":
The United Church of God claims that there can be "Christians in other Churches", and apparently does not claim themselves as "God's One True Church". However, for them to sarcastically cast judgement on Christians on celebrating the resurrection of their savior, Jesus Christ, just because of the origin of a day, proves this is just "talk" - clearly they believe they have the answers and the way and the truth. I have news. Jesus is the way, and the truth, and the Life. And any day celebrating the fact that Christ is risen - and any church that celebrates that Christ is risen and has taken the punishment of our sins upon himself - and focuses on Jesus as the way, the truth, and the life - is great, if it be on Easter, the day before, the day after, or ten weeks from next Friday.
But my bet is they'll keep focusing on the eggs, the chocolate, the clothes, and the traditions. And I will remind them of feast presents, drinking, shopping, and the merriment of their own Festivals - which are kept nothing like the festivals of the Old Testament were kept - just like Easter today, celebrated by those who love Jesus, is nothing today and at all like the pagan festivals of old. Chocolate, eggs, clothes, these are all physical things. But a celebration of Jesus Christ - that's spiritual. And that's meaningful. and that's wonderful. That's not empty. That's life. So quit judging, UCG - and look at the Bible - and all festivals - with a spiritual eye, not an eye of condemnation and judgement. That's so Armstrongism, and I'm beginning to think they haven't changed a bit.
Tom Mahon said: "HWA, despite his faults, was a servant of Christ. And those who attack the servants of Christ are told: "It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones."
Tom, you keep saying that herbie was a servant of Christ and you have been asked repeatedly to show proof of that. For the sake of discussion you can ignore his personal failings but you cannot escape applying the criteria set forth by the bible for an Apostle or another claiming to be a servant of God. Armstrong doesn't cut the mustard, plan and simple. I know it devastating to have what you have believed for so long turned upside down and realize it is wrong, but you would do well for yourself and your family to have that moment of clarity sooner than later.
On a side note to Jared Olar: It is good to have you contributing again! You have been missed.
--> Charlie Kieran
"HWA, despite his faults, was a servant of Christ...."
Was GTA, despite his faults, a servant of God?
For if by "faults" you mean sexual immorality (incest) and drunkeness then GTA is as much a servant of Christ than HWA.
The Apostle Paul
What if ol' Weinland is right? What is supposed to happen on April 17th? Has somebody read what the criteria are for Weinland designating something "The Tribulation"?
Since the Tribulation is to descend principally on the descendants of Jacob (the time of Jacob's trouble), it may be an event in history that further demonstrates that BI is incorrect.
When the Tribulation begins, not only will Armtrongists not go to the place of safety, but it will be apparent that they are not Israelites. The Tribulation could be for them, the most disillusioning event in their short and checkered history.
Imagine all the intense excitement among Armstrongists as the real tribulation approaches -- their fondest dreams about to be realized, the collapse of the great American society (almost and Islamic viewpoint). But instead they find themselves diasabused of their fondest illusions. You can bet it will be a tribulation for them.
-- Neo
What if there is NO tribulation. No real Two Witnesses or Plagues, Vials, Trumpets and Thunders? What if it's all just one big made up idea promoted by mentally ill men who don't even know themselves how wrong they are and the impact they have on the gullible?
How much time have you and I wasted even thinking about the end of the Age, the Second Coming, The World Tomorrow and let the World Today slip by.
The purveyors of prophetic nonesense are waisting the time of millions and giving zealots a template on which to play out their non events to our harm . All we'll end up with is a huge sanitation problem and no Wonderful World Tomorrow. ugh!
Read it again, Mr. Mahon. Your passage has absolutely nothing to do with attacking servants of Christ. It's about offending "the little ones," something you regularly demonstrate a remarkable aptitude for. How do you miss completely the evidence, routinely written about on this site, that HWA and his organization did the same?
Byker Bob is right, it's important to let go. It's also clear to me that thousands of people laid their thoughts and hurts and evidence before God and concluded that HWA and his methods had ultimately produced bad fruit in their lives, and with clarity and honesty chose to leave it behind. These weren't knee-jerk reactions.
Your dismissing of these and other sincere, sound-thinking people -- most of whom, I would argue, were reluctant to do what they did but concluded, before God, that they had no choice if they were to be honest -- is further evidence that you are a sounding brass, given to chasing people away and causing offense with your harsh words, as opposed to bringing comfort or ministering to their joy.
Splinter, meet Beam, again.
"What if there is NO tribulation."
Now there's a thought. Here's a bit a propecy you can bank on:
In the future, things will get really, really bad. There will be world wars. Disease. Natural disasters. Billions will die. At some point, perhaps a majority of humanity will die out. Repeat at intervals of varying length (100 years to a million years) until the species either dies out or is able to overcome most of it's problems. But reality as we know it will continue on and on and on without so much as a peep from Zeus, Allah, or Jehovah.
The Apostle Paul (Part-Time Prophet)
There could well be no tribulation - for us. The tribulation may not happen within our lifetimes. These events will affect a single generation. That is why they do not dominate the Biblical landscape.
If these events do not happen at all, then we can safely conclude that Christianity is false. But the condition for us will be either that we know for sure it is true because the events have happened in our lifeteims. Or we don't know if they are true or not because th events did not happen in our lifetimes but may happen later, after we are deceased.
-- Neo
I believe that the tribulation began when Satan fell from heaven. Christ said he saw him fall.
Haven't we always had wars, famines, diseases? I imagine the folks in Katrina believed they were in tribulation. Didn't the people that were in that Tsunami feel that it was tribulation? And the peoples in Africa starving, being driven out of their homes. How much worse can things be for some areas of the world? Now we have flooding in Arkansas, Missouri. Fires, mudslides, and on and on it goes. If that isn't tribulation, then I don't know what is.
Tom Mahon said...
HWA, despite his faults, was a servant of Christ. And those who attack the servants of Christ are told: "It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones."
Interesting conflation of a jaded old preacher with a child sitting on Jesus lap. But such scriptural manipulations are common in Armstrongism.
The little ones Jesus was talking about were children.
I'd hazard to guess that incest is a little worse than just offending a child. (And don't tell me it was consensual relationship!)
So Tom, just what size millstone does Herbert Armstrong wear?
Charlie said: On a side note to Jared Olar: It is good to have you contributing again! You have been missed.
That's a relief! I didn't even know anyone was aiming at me! ;-)
Seriously though, I know my commenting around here has been slightly less frequent, but I still pop in now and again.
A study in contrasts, for those who are keeping track:
The First Trumpet---this is what Weinland said would happen, after the first trumpet sounded, in the book 2008: God's Final Witness.
The church is still publicly using the Feb. 2 -> 1335 days -> March 18th -> 1290 days ("...and the world will be shocked and in horror on the day the the seventh seal is opened" p. 23 2008: God's Final Witness only it wasn't)-> April 17th -> Great Tribulation begins only maybe it won't, or maybe "it could take 6 to 12 months" timeline.
Weinland was hinting, as recently as a few weeks ago, that there would be no reason to get together with brethren after Passover, and quite possibly not even then.
(Apparently people will be instructed via the website on how to keep Passover in their homes; no word yet on how they intend to prevent the "unbaptized" from taking Passover, if they're going to send out instructions via the website.)
However, this past Saturday, Weinland referred rather obliquely in a throwaway manner to Atonement, a Fall Feast. (Members are currently under the impression that they will be unable to keep the Feast of Tabernacles this year.)
Tellingly, he has also stepped the fear-mongering back a large notch, most likely because unedited copies of his sermons are now finding their way to the 'net.
As a result, people can now hear him spout off in the first fifteen - twenty minutes of each sermon on the death and destruction, which he claimed on Saturday's sermon that "he wasn't talking about [that]", it was more "spiritual".
So. Is the thought-reform beginning, ever-so-subtly? Anyone got a time-machine we can borrow, to see if this is the same way it all played out in '72??
Weinland Watch said, "So. Is the thought-reform beginning, ever-so-subtly? Anyone got a time-machine we can borrow, to see if this is the same way it all played out in '72??"
MY COMMENT: Back by popular demand thanks to Tom Moron's earlier comment about my essay is the following excerpt from my unpublished essay "My Worldwide Church of God Reflections: 1972 in Prophecy - God's Practical Joke?":
Bombs dropping on America in January, 1972!
So proclaimed the prophecies of the “Apostle of God”, Worldwide Church of God head Herbert W. Armstrong (HWA). I still have vivid memories of the dark and cold January nights of 1972. I would hide in my bed under my covers trembling in fear of the beginning of the great tribulation as prophesied by God’s Apostle and the church’s ministry. Occasionally, I would get out from under my covers and look out my Laurel, Maryland bedroom window to see if I could see the Germans that were ready to strike in my neighborhood as God’s punishment on America. Years of sermons, co-worker letters and congregational chat had prepared the way for the final climax with the German attack. There was even a gruesome Armstrong booklet entitled “1975 in Prophecy”. According to Armstrong theology, the great tribulation was to begin in January, 1972. God’s Philadelphian people were to be taken to a place of safety in the Middle East land called “Petra” while the remaining Laodiceans were to go through the horrible great tribulation with the rest of the world, and Christ would return to earth in 1975 commencing the wonderful world tomorrow.
The 1972 prophecy revolved around Armstrong’s commencement of “The Work of God” in January, 1934 and a belief in “19 year time cycles”. Armstrong theology taught that God’s Philadelphia Church era began in 1934, and that exactly 19 years later, the significant event of the Church’s radio broadcast going on the air internationally in Europe occurred in 1953. The second 19 year time cycle would complete the work in January, 1972 and the great tribulation was to begin lead by Germany attacking the United States.
People strove to be Philadelphian to be counted worthy to escape the great tribulation. This meant having zeal for “the Work”. The amount of zeal displayed for “the Work” often translated into the amount of financial support sent to Armstrong. When January, 1972 arrived, I assumed I was not worthy to escape all these things since I was still in Laurel, Maryland and not in the Petra place of safety.
Apparently, God (or somebody) forgot to tell the Germans about their unique rendezvous with destiny slated for 1972 as the prophecy didn’t quite turn out as Armstrong and the Church had preached!
End of Excerpt.
I hope Tom Moron will appreciate my unpublished essay excerpted above. I believe it succinctly sums up my WCG experience.
Richard
Hey Richard---how about I take your "unpublished" excerpt and publish it on WW? Yes/no/maybe? It would definitely help the cause.
Think about it and let me know.
A more detailed look at what Weinland is prophesying for the First Trumpet, at least according to the book 2008: God's Final Witness.
It must be noted that Weinland has backed off a lot from using this rhetoric verbally, in the last couple of sermons; that falls in line with my theory that they're programming the membership to not expect anything to happen on April 17th, and when nothing does, the CoG-PKG will just keep rolling right along like it has been. :-(
One more comment left by a former member of one of Weinland's WCG congregations.
According to Quantcast, this is what it said about the typical Ambassador Watch viewer...
"This blog reaches approximately 2,502 U.S. monthly uniques. The blog caters to a more educated, somewhat male, HH income up to $60k, mostly Caucasian, 55+ audience."
Nearly all COG related sites have a very high affinity with crossover viewership for "prisonplanet.com" the site for conspiracy theorist/radio show host Alex Jones.
Here are the number of monthly unique individual visitors who are coming to various COG sites...
Good News 156k
RCG.org 152k
BibleStudy.org 145k
UCG.org 132k
WCG 89k
Packs Real Truth 79k
Tommorows World 72k
The Trumpet 45k
Nutcase Weinland 21k
Vision.org 20k
Born To Win 10k
Thiel 5k
Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA
Oh joy!
According to the writer cited in the above Weinland Watch link, Ron Weinland is yet another Worldwide Church of Fraud minister who has a history of exploiting lay members for personal financial gain!
Are all these Armstrongite WCG ministers in it just for the money, or is Dennis Diehl the only one I can find with any integrity?
Richard
Hmmm, Bill or anyone,
How do these surveys of blogs, websites, etc know the profiles of viewers?
The enquiring mind of a female needs to know....
"Are all these Armstrongite WCG ministers in it just for the money, or is Dennis Diehl the only one I can find with any integrity?"
Richard
MY COMMENT: Gag! More flattery for ya, Dennis.
Yeah, yeah, Steve -- we got it already -- you think Dennis talks too much, hasn't apologised enough (or at all) for having been a WCG minister, lacks integrity, has too many people who flatter him or who agree with him, yadda yadda yadda. I'm pretty sure the coroner has already pronounced that horse long deceased and more than sufficiently flogged. Rather than posting your ad hominem remarks, you could post some substantive criticisms of the things Dennis says -- if you have any. Or is it just that you don't like the fact that its Dennis who is saying them?
Jared Olar said...
Yeah, yeah, Steve, you think Dennis has too many people who flatter him...I'm pretty sure the coroner has already pronounced that horse long deceased and more than sufficiently flogged.
MY COMMENT: So, stop flattering that dead horse already. It's getting ridiculous, and cheesy!
re: Steve the moron
In comment to your idiotic ramblings I can only reply; moronic stupidity deserves no reply.
You sir, are an Idiot.
Hey Tom (and Steve), tell us all what its like to me a moron.
Steve, what you see as self-indulgent prattling on the part of Dennis may be seen by others as honest coming-to-grips with what was and what is, in relation to his time with the WCG and, in particular, his years in its ministry.
It's pretty clear to me that he was wrestling with many of the things he's written about even during those years. Contrast that with the countless lock-steppers who just swallowed the company line and then regurgitated it once they gained rank.
The flip side is, you're entitled to be aggravated by it, and your aggravation is probably instructive, too. Dennis will likely find a middle ground on some perspectives as the years progress, but his posts here will always depict an honest attempt on his part to openly assess and analyze all that he saw and experienced. I may agree with what he writes, or I may disagree, but it's always fascinating to see where people are and how they got there.
I contrast that with the arrogant, holier-than-thou windbagging of Mr. Mahon, who, like so many of his forerunners in the Armstrongian tradition, delights in his specialness and pities those who don't share in it (read: everyone else). Since he prefers to see others only through that prism, he is blind to the fact that no one cares, or is listening.
Takeaway quote from today's sermon:
1:53:20 "Three More Weeks":
"If by Pentecost I’m just going to make this real clear to everyone. If by Pentecost it is not powerfully and abundantly clear that there has been a great deal of destruction that will clearly encompass a third of all plant life in the US and at least the clear results of this mingled with blood the death of very much animal life and the beginning of large numbers of human life then I will stop preaching. Just so all the critics and everyone out there will understand. I am true to my word in these things. OK? And for all the critics if by the end of July and for most likely around Pentecost if nothing has clearly caused great destruction and death I will make it very clear that I was a false prophet. I will do exactly what I said I would do on aaaaall those interviews that I have held. To do less. Well. Would be quite insane."
Listen to the unedited sermon (all two hours of it if you can stomach it) here.
Did I mention CoG-PKG is keeping Pentecost on June 8th this year? So now Weinland's painting himself into a June 8th prophecy corner.
Then after June 8 it will be "if nothing happens by Atonement" and then after that the Feast will be back on! First the fast and then the Feast! Smile brethren! :-(
The info just keeps coming in! Check out this 2005 Feast report a former member of the CoG-PKG just sent me.
Rotten Ronnie's latest revelation!
"My wife and I, as well as Johnny and Myrtle Harrell, will be visiting Israel from April 14th through April 21st. We will be in Jerusalem on April 17th which is the day the First Trumpet of the Seventh Seal sounds. The process of all that will occur, with the sounding of the First Trumpet, will begin on April 17th and continue to increase in destructive power (consequences) for the following seven weeks. The Second Trumpet will not sound until after the Day of Pentecost. This does not mean it is near that date, but it means it cannot happen until after that day."
Read the rest of the insanity straight from the witless's mouth here. Read my take on "by Pentecost or July" here.
Anyone know the right email address for the Israeli Health Authorities? We might be able to get Witless Weinland's little tour group picked up before they even get into the country.
That's only if Rotten Ronnie isn't on the no-fly list for his predictions of nuclear armageddon in the first place.
Weinland to his critics on April 5: We're demons! Better polish your horns and sharpen those pitchforks people!!
Weinland Quote of the Year:
"Why would anyone want to use anyone in Judaism as an authority in Hebrew?"
I have been reading your posts and I am very sorry most of you seem so confused. I have gone though the struggle myself of spending hours on end in thought and study over the big questions. What is the meaning of life?, Is there is a God?, If so is he the God of the bible?, If so is Jesus really his divine son ..God incarnate? If so where is the true church that Jesus founded? I was deep in the wilderness of agnosticism, mysticism, Hinduism and had went way off track into holographic/simulation theories of the universe when I came full circle and found the truth.
I know now for certain that there is a God, Jesus is his divine son, the meaning of life is the chance to be reborn a spirit being and be a part of Gods family, and that the church Jesus founded is in the individuals that God has truly called and have his Holy Spirit. They are those who believe in Jesus and try to serve him with all their heart, they resonate with pure selfless Love.. Love for God and Love for man.
Many will not believe me but I had an encounter with the God of the bible. I just happened to pick up a bible while visiting my mother and I felt a blue light surround me.. the bible then came to life, Gods spirit was flowing though me for the first time. The words seem almost musical .. the bible spoke to me with a voice of its own. It was all condemnatory.. I saw my most of my life go by with holographic clarity .. saw what a selfish evil person I had been .. I was seeing myself for the first time I think the way God saw me .. it was terrible.... I had come full circle and finally had the truth but the mind of God couldn't dwell within me very well because I was an unfit vessel. I had the imprint of evil from a lifetime of wicked selfish habits. I think I experienced a taste of what its like to be in judgment before the most high.
There were times in my life I became very bitter and filled with hate.. made terrible accusations against God .. said monstrous things.. He had heard me and I was getting an answer.
I saw what a hypocrite I had been .. how I had condemned and made moral judgments against all who had wronged me but yet I had committed worse wrongs against others. I had been bitter against God for not helping me when I was in need but I did not help others in desperate need when I could have and besides was living in open sin and iniquity. I saw I had been totally and completely depraved.
I don't know what my status is with God now or if I will be forgiven. During the experience which lasted several months I made promises to turn back to him completely then tried to go back on them because I didn't want to loose my job. I valued my livelihood at the time more than being obedient and keeping the sabbath.
I will tell you with certainty that God definitely exists and I will try my best to reveal to you some of the things I came to understand before the Holy Spirit parted with me in the strength that it was dwelling with me then.
First God is pure Love.. he resonates pure Love.. his spirit is pure Love.. Love is sort of the resonate frequency of the Universe.. pure white light, by it everything that exists exists. Love is Gods nature.
Satan is in discord with the universe .. he resonates at the opposite frequency of Love which is selfishness and hate, no discord will be allowed to continue. God will not allow wickedness to be in his presence.
Primarily what is required of us by God is so simple.. he wants us to renounce our old sinful ways and to repent. To turn from iniquity which is the transgression of his Laws and to LOVE. A Christians transformed nature should be one of Love and caring about others, having a desire to give and serve.
Thats it really.. Love fulfills the Law because Love does no harm. If you Love God with all your Heart and you truly Love other people as you Love yourself you won't do anything to hurt them.
If someone does something terrible to you, no matter how bad it is .. you forgive and love them.. you don't fill yourself with bitterness
and hate .. you Love them.
Out of Love you have a duty to tell them of their sin .. to warn them to repent lest they face judgment .. but if they don't .. you pray for them that God will be merciful and you Love them.
I believe that God has worked though Mr. Armstrong and the COG's to reestablish the truth of his commandments but the truth is the True Church of God isn't any one particular Organization but is a spiritual organism composed of all those that God has truly called and who have his spirit.
Remember the focus of our duties and the core of being a Christian is to Love and help people. To pour yourself out for others. You don't want to ever become prideful and elitist thinking you know more that others and thinking that makes you righteous. The only hope any of us has is in Christ shed blood.. God came to earth and died a horrible death to pay our penalty.. in turn he asks us to repent accept his sacrifice and learn to Love Him and other people.
Keeping the Sabbath, Feast days, while important are not the substance of being a Christian. The substance is Loving and serving.
If you belong to a COG do everything they say as long as it doesn't contradict Gods commandments.. Learning the spirit of giving by faithfully tithing is very good. Be humble and teachable..and learn to keep the commandments, but remember that it is Jesus whom you are following and the Focus of his gospel isn't legalism its Repentance, acceptance of and believing in Him and Love.
Steve
Check out Detecting False Prophets at http://www.masters-table.org/warning/false_prophet.htm
Post a Comment