Ronald Weinland is an inspiring figure, and as he goeth forth to meet his destiny this week, it only seems fitting that his prophetic mission be marked by profound theological discourse and suitably reverent songs of praise. To this end AW has two offerings: a peer reviewed discussion reflecting on the nature of time itself (of which we're fast running out as Ronald heralds the End), and inspiring music that captures the greatness of the moment we are all privileged to be living in.
The first link is to the very topical discussion "What Time Is It...?"
The second link is offered as a deeply respectful serenade in the Spirit to accompany the revelation of the Second Witness (warning: may contain glossolalia, the sound of the second trumpet, and nuclear weapon detonation.)
Please use both resources prayerfully.
84 comments:
Good on you Gavin - I just knew you had to be a goon fan. I was introduced in the fifties - they are still on the ABC at 5.30am friday. I also have all on DVD plus all of Milligans books etc.
I think goon humopur helped me survive 30 years of WCG madness!! As Eccles said "its good to be alive!!"
Rodders
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBuUUBrC9eQ&feature=related
Doom & Gloom . . . that is for those of us who don't happen to believe that Jesus is about to descend from heaven with a shout.
The idea of the CoGOM that Jesus didn't return in the first century because the Jews did not repent is also ridiculous. The NT Paul makes it plain that Israel, the nation, is not the Israel of God. The called and chosen of every nation is the Israel of God - thus "all Israel will be saved". See how simple that is?
Jesus is not coming back this week or the next either. Not next month nor next year, not in 2012 nor in 3012 for that matter. He's not coming back at all and sooner or later people will figure that out (as hard as that is to comprehend) and will have to make a change in their pre-millennial adventist doctrines.
And for Jared: Jesus and the apostles weren't talking to future generations, they were talking to that mid first century generation. That their words may have been copied faithfully (which I doubt) for future generations, they were copied for the sake of the leaders of the church in order to keep their jobs after the "soon" return of Jesus didn't happen.
To keep from being questioned, they came up with a thousand years is as one day to God and that no prophecy was of any "private interpretation". Of course it's not of any private interpretation - we should always let the bishops and priests tell us the meaning (yeah, right!). Unless you can't read and comprehend plain English, I would suggest that you read of the prophecies of Jesus' soon return, 2,000 years ago, I suggest that "the end of all things is at hand" needs no priestly interpretation.
The whole weinland thing is a little scary. We do not know what extremes the Weinland followers might go to.
I watched an interview of some of the women from the San Angelo FLDS compound. "Crazy" is the only word I can think of. People become so brainwashed that they lose the capacity for rational thought. Their dedication to wrong principle becomes pathological.
The FLDS situation is highly reminiscent of the State of California invasion of the Pasadena campus. I recall some of the same kind of behaviors being displayed: attempts to manipulate the news media, shoving maches around the lecturn, attempts to divert attention away from WCG bad behavior to the State trampling on religious rights.
Fundamentalism has common properties no matter where it is implemented. Christian is what it is not.
-- Neo
Well, ain't that a hoot!
I came across a video of a sermon preached at Tom's Radio Church of God congregation. It's rather legalistic. Rumor has it that the congregation voted for changing the name of the church to Worldwide Church of God after the sermon. The vote would have been unanimous, had it not been for Tom standing up and saithing,
"NO! It should be The Herbert W Armstrong Church of Herbert W Armstrong!"
Corky said: He's not coming back at all
Well, I imagine you at least hope He's not coming back.
Jesus and the apostles weren't talking to future generations, they were talking to that mid first century generation.
All the more reason to suspect that a modern reader of Scripture, such as yourself, might not necessarily understand what they were talking about . . . .
That their words may have been copied faithfully (which I doubt)
You're not thinking clearly, Corky. If they weren't copied faithfully, then how can you be sure they really predicted that Christ's final and definitive return would take place in the lifetimes of the first Christians? Maybe somebody later on authored those alleged predictions, palming them off as the words of Christ and the apostles.
for future generations, they were copied for the sake of the leaders of the church in order to keep their jobs after the "soon" return of Jesus didn't happen.
Not very bright, those church leaders, making sure false predictions that proved the illegitimacy of those church leaders would be faithfully preserved and handed on to future generations.
To keep from being questioned, they came up with a thousand years is as one day to God
No, actually that's in the Psalms, hundreds of years before Christ.
and that no prophecy was of any "private interpretation".
Seems pretty reasonable that individuals shouldn't feel free to come up with their own personal interpretations of a prophecy, apart from considerations of what the prophecy could sensibly mean.
And if these church leaders really invented these concepts to keep from being questioned, well, we all know how successful that strategy has been. Again, these early church leaders were apparently pretty lamebrained, and yet they still managed to dupe everyone. Guess most of us are dumber than those dumb church leaders, which might suggest that we need some guidance from our betters after all . . .
Of course it's not of any private interpretation - we should always let the bishops and priests tell us the meaning (yeah, right!).
I should think that the heirs of a religious patrimony might have some say in what that patrimony is for.
Unless you can't read and comprehend plain English, I would suggest that you read of the prophecies of Jesus' soon return, 2,000 years ago, I suggest that "the end of all things is at hand" needs no priestly interpretation.
But that's just the thing, Corky -- Jesus and the apostles neither spoke nor wrote in plain English.
A text that needs no interpretation is a text that hasn't been written yet.
I, personally, find it fascinating to have a good detailed look at how various religions operate.
I recently came upon an exhaustive scientific study of a particular religious tribe which may or may not be a remnant of one of the 12 Tribes of Israel.
Please don't let ronnie's or herbie's cosmogenies influence what you ultimately come to believe vis a vis these amazing discoveries.
State moving against religions. Endless wars with no exit strategy.
Crackpot prophets everywhere.....
Why does 2008 feel just like 1975?
Even politically. Its like we're in a karmic loop, didn't learn from the last endless war we got our selves into and now we got another one.
Except we don't have gas lines this time, at $4/gallon, the oil companies seem to have lots of gasoline available!
Who would have thought Bush would make Carter look good?
Lucky y'all!! In Britain petrol (gas) is around $11 per gallon
Hey Gavin! You a crispy critter yet? Post and let us know Witless Weinland hasn't hired the NWO mafia to take you out...... ;-)
Ok, having a little fun.
So, one more...
Ron Dart's Doctor Visit
Thanks for the concern WW. It's the morning of the 17th here already and I'm holed up in an underground bunker under the Fish & Chip shop in Eketahuna along with 3 1/2 years supply of chocolate chip biscuits and well marked copies of Ron's two books. Remember to keep your head down when those H-bombs go off!
Anonymous said...
Lucky y'all!! In Britain petrol (gas) is around $11 per gallon
Sheessh. That's $22/gallon. No wonder they take away your guns.
"Sheessh. That's $22/gallon."
No, I'm sure it's more like $11; notice that Anonymous used a dollar sign, not the symbol for the pound. The way to figure petrol prices in terms of American gallons and money is to find out what the going rate for petrol is right now--which is sold in liters nowadays, not in imperial gallons. Essentially at current exchange rates, you can take the price per liter in British currency and double the number to get the cost in American. Then multiply that number by about 3.8 (there are, I believe, about 3.8 liters to an American gallon), and you'd have a close approximation of how much petrol in Britain costs in American dollars.
It certainly sounds like my wife and I will be forking over a lot of dough on any driving trips that we take on our next visit to the UK this summer!
It certainly sounds like my wife and I will be forking over a lot of dough on any driving trips that we take on our next visit to the UK this summer!
Camfinch, aren't you more concerned about whether the airlines will get you there and back? They might merge while you're touring!
Is the Pope mad at Witless Ronnie yet??
Why haven't I heard anything?
Radiation levels have not increased. The Pope hasn't mentioned Witless yet. What am I supposed to do?
I just checked CNN. Jerusalem Post, AP, no mention of Ronald Weinland or the subject of Witness. I am beginning to be concerned. What will the faithful do if the Pope doesn't get mad at Ronald? What will the faithful do if nothing happens? As was mentioned in an earlier post, to quote Dr. Smith: "the Pain, Oh the Pain"
You see it was a trick all along!
He is actually the 3rd "Silent" Witness!
Hold on, it's still 11:18 p.m. in the Eastern Time Zone of the U.S. (Rod, Clyde, Pack), 10:18 p.m. in the Central zone (Flurry), and 8:18 in the Pacific zone (Hulme, et al) -- so don't go getting ahead of yourselves; it's not even the 17th yet.
Haven't you people in the scattered nations learned that EVERYTHING is based on a U.S. perspective? Weren't you paying attention AT ALL?
Sheesh....
Gavin, that doesn't sound like a very healthy diet for three and a half years. Have you forgotten the seven LAWS of health? :-)
Weinland is so behind the times. Does he not realise that according to Robert Ardis and his Church of God's Faithful, the Bridegroom and the Day of the Lord have been here ever since 1997? I'm aware of a couple of people tied up with him in NZ, otherwise I too would be in blissful ignorance.
Oh, and they have fifty "new truths"..... one of them I suppose being "shopping malls are designed to attract women" (make-up article). Mmmmmm....
http://www.setapartbytruth.org/
Anyone else see Drudge Report's headline about the world's population reaching 6,666,666,666 on May 10 this year?
Creepy isn't it?
Just Askin'
The Universal Defense for false prophets: Temporary Insanity caused by the ingestion of Twinkies.
That's right. A wile ago some bloke in the states murdered another unfortunate. However, he was deemed innocent by reason of temporary insanity caused by a food item called a Twinkie.
Seems this Twinkie is heavily ladened with sugar and all sorts of chemicals. Anyway, because of these chemicals on the mind....(a weak one or just missing one); a jury found the guy innocent, by reason of temporary insanity.
Poof! Rotten Ronnie is not a false prophet, by reason of temporary insanity cause by nothing more that a malfunctioning cup cake!
Call me silly, but it is my belief that the second witness is none other that Jimmy Carter.
Someone a few posts ago was wondering about 363 Grove Street where 5000+ members may have voted.
If I am not is taken, this address would be the building that housed the library and HWA's office on the top before the Hall of Administration. Grove Terrace, the men's dorm was a the bottom of the hill on opposite side of street. Grove Street no longer exists and was a part of the campus that was made into walkways.
Remember to keep your head down when those H-bombs go off!
And don't look directly at the blast for the light might do damage to your eyes, not unlike looking at eclipse.
Stock up on things which have iodine in them, since this may help somewhat with the radiation from the fallout.
Canned food which does not need heating is best, but check the expiration dates.
And remember, turkey Spam lasts forever, and that's after you eat it.
And don't forget 17 cases of "Twinkies"!
Any detonations yet? Just asking.
This just in.....
Ronny Weinland has just announced that Twinkie the Kid is the Second Witness.
Oh, no!
Wait....
Update:
MSNBC and the Pope have just announced that Mr. Twinkie has apparently been found dead in the streets of Jerusalem, approximately 3 1/2 years too soon.
According to detectives, a cake-eating man only identified as "Tom" was found at the scene and taken into custody for questioning.
An autographed picture of Herbert Armstrong was found in his back pocket.
Maybe he has been licking the oreo's too. All that sugar will get to you sooner or later.
But Gavin! We're critics! Don't you remember what Witless Weinland proclaimed on March 29?
"After April 17, I would fear to be in any of your shoes, truly, truly, truly!"
Don't you see Gavin? The only way to ensure our survival on this day of days, the day the mighty sound of the first trumpet will be heard 'round the world, the only way to ensure we remain safe after mocking the mighty Ron-ola is to go barefoot.
Whatever happens today, (Apr. 17), it is an historical day for most of us. We get to watch another example of Millerism!
I really wish we had taken up a collection to fund an airplane advertisement for the Jerusalem area. It'd be nice to see a banner streaming behind an old biplane for the Weiner dude's benefit. The banner could read something like "Go up, thou bald head!"
BB
BB said:
"Go up, thou bald head!"
Bob! Are you nuts...this attracts bears!
Jared Olar said...
Corky said: He's not coming back at all
Well, I imagine you at least hope He's not coming back.
You can "imagine" it if you like but actually, I don't have any such "hope" as that. The NT says that he was coming back "soon" but 2,000 years says that he's not.
Unless you can't read and comprehend plain English, I would suggest that you read of the prophecies of Jesus' soon return, 2,000 years ago, I suggest that "the end of all things is at hand" needs no priestly interpretation.
But that's just the thing, Corky -- Jesus and the apostles neither spoke nor wrote in plain English.
That's right, they didn't, but we have translations in plain English.
A text that needs no interpretation is a text that hasn't been written yet.
So you imagine that Gone With the Wind or other popular novels require interpretation? You just wrote several paragraphs that require no interpretation, I literally understood them with no problem at all. However, I don't believe the "apostolic succession" story at all and just about everyone knows that the Psalms do not say what Peter says about a thousand years being one day in a future sense.
Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past . . .
Nothing about 1,000 years equaling one day to God at all there. In fact, my own high school years seems like only yesterday too (now that it is past) though they were 43 years ago.
When Jesus said "this generation" he did not mean a god generation, when he said "soon" and "at hand" he did not mean thousands of years, because he was talking to humans not gods.
When the scribes copied the copies of the NT it was easier to leave it pretty much as is, knowing that any problems could always be explained away and that's why there are thousands of books out there explaining away clear passages.
Hey it's not too late; most of those webcam sites have the option for you to write a message that will be hand-delivered to, and stuffed into, the Western (Wailing) Wall.
Howzabout all us ex-WCG members write in and say, "Dear God, if you're up there, SMITE RON ALREADY. He's been fulfilling Deut. 18:20 for FOUR MONTHS ALREADY. Get off your keister! All it'll take is two concentrated lightning strikes! That's not too much to ask is it? Well is it?
........insert sound of crickets.........
Corky noted:
"Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past . . .
Nothing about 1,000 years equaling one day to God at all there. In fact, my own high school years seems like only yesterday too (now that it is past) though they were 43 years ago."
You taught me something new here. I assumed the same thing of Ps 90 and 2 Peter 3:8. The whole context is that time means nothing to God, NOT with God you have to figure a day = 1000 years for prophecy games.
2 Peter is the Apologetic as to why "scoffers" who had every right to notice "time is short" after all Paul's statements about it, was going a bit long. The principle players were dead or dying and no Jesus. Just as today.
The church was trying to explain, as it always has to, why what it said was wrong and somehow the fault lay in the member and not the bogus teachings and wrong headed encouragement to "send it all in."
Saying,
3 First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.
This really means, "It's your fault and it's still the last day but evil scoffers are messing up the schedule. The scoffing is part of the prophetic time table. We were actually waiting for it to ad it as one more proof we are living in the last days. Bingo! Prophecy comes alive!"
"4They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."
Which of course is true and to notice this is not scoffing, it's ...well..noticing. Notice the writer using sarcasm to turn the noticing into something evil. Also, it's not the church's fault. It's the fault of the member for noticing.
"5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water."
Notice a bad motive has to be assigned to the noticiing. It is not just simple noticing, it is DELIBERATE rebellion and forgetting the obvious. 4000 years ago God did what he said folks and you DELIBERATELY are forgetting this.
8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day."
"It's your fault stupid dear friends. God's thoughts are not your thoughts. Time means nothing to God even though we did say "time is short." We meant short like God short, not human short. We did honest..... How hard we try to teach 'you people'"
9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness."
See, it's your fault. Since we know it's not slow it depends on what you mean by slow. Human slow or God slow? You're thinking with human reasoning on the topic of slow. This is God slow stuff. Depends on what "is" is.
"He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."
God has given YOU, I mean us, more time. That's the whole point brethren. He would have been here, but YOU, I mean we aren't ready. So while we were meaning time is short like God thinks, it all works out and we are right plus you get more time to repent of scoffing for nothing.
Sounds familiar doesn't it? We'll hear it again soon from RW
Nowhere is there a 1000 years = a day for prophecy buffs calculations.
Anonymous wrote:
Someone a few posts ago was wondering about 363 Grove Street where 5000+ members may have voted.
If I am not is taken, this address would be the building that housed the library and HWA's office on the top before the Hall of Administration. Grove Terrace, the men's dorm was a the bottom of the hill on opposite side of street. Grove Street no longer exists and was a part of the campus that was made into walkways.
Didn't you mean South Orange Grove? that address you gave is in Sierra Madre. According to map it looks like it was a building on the corner of Waverly drive.
Check out the map
There was a grove st. on the campus that became a walkway which is why it is not listed. The Sierra Madra is something else. I think it was either the street from Orange Grove thru the campus between gym and track or the one that was perpendicular to it and ran infront of all the big homes which faced it. Anyway, I'm not sure which street was which but I'm sure it was on campus and didn't hold 5000 ha
Gavin,
You are holed up in an underground bunker beneath the Eketahuna fish(TUNA) and chip(REWI) shop.
Was not Eketahuna the place that Gordon McLaughlin,one of our notable journalists doubted the existence of?
I once spent a memorable 24 hours in good old Eke with a broken car windscreen.Not much to do in that place except go for long walks and guzzle at the local pubs.Funnily enough,there are some COGGERS in the vicinity who shall remain unnamed.
After 3.5 years and multiple readings of the two volumes, you will be a global authority on Ron Weinland.
Jorgheinz
All:
363 Grove Street in Sierra Madre is NOT connected to the campus. In fact, that specific street number no longer exists. That lot was combined with 359 Grove to create a large non conforming lot and house for the neighborhood.
Checking Zillow.com, the current value of the property is about 1.5 Million Dollars, and I checked with the local title company, and the property is NOT currently owned by the WCG, only a couple of individuals that I have never heard of.
http://www.zillow.com/aerial/DualMapPage.htm?zpid=20881984
It is a very nice area, and was probably Raders or some other church officers residence at some time back in the 60s.
Take a peak at the place with this detailed satellite pic...
http://www.zillow.com/aerial/DualMapPage.htm?zpid=20881984
Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA
Revelation 11:6 (New International Version)
6 "These MEN have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want."
Uh oh...men....hmmmm, Better not be the Mrs.
Any detonations yet? Just asking.
Err Bill, the link you gave at zillow.com is for the Sierra Madre address. So why would you be surprised that no one from WCG owns it? It's in a different city!
Well, the 17th of April is almost over here in the USA, and I haven't heard a sound out of the Pope regarding Ronnie.
Ronnie indicated the Pope would be very angry at him and that something was to happen on this day.
Well something did happen. I went to work, came home, ate, and am now ready for bed.
As for Ronnies delusions, I belive the gig is up. Unless he announces Jimmy Carter as his running mate.
I'm in my bunker on the web, any reports on Ronnie the Terrible first miricle, maybe after the second witness is announced Ronnie with unleash is first salvo,silence the critics' scoffers and hecklers and this blog REPENT! I SAY REPENT YOU WORKERS OF INIQUITY!! Ronnie the Terrible is about cremate ass and your donkey as well.
"These MEN have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want."
Well that ends any speculation that the other witness is Jimmy Carter. (Gender is in question).
Too bad his brother Billy Carter is no longer amongst the living. He and his Billy Beer would have been worthy canadates.
Any news on what the First Witness is up to?
If there was a Grove Street at one time on the campus, the 363 street number would correspond to the Ambassador campus location for an "east/west" running street for that area.
Yes there were a few streets that at one time ran thru the campus that were eventually closed for public use. Was Grove one of them?
Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA
I attempted to post a longer comment about 6 hours ago but I don't know if I screwed it up somehow or if it is is being thoroughly vetted in "moderation mode" by our host. (I assume that Gavin has essentially nothing to do except to sit by his computer and check for new messages about every 2 minutes.)
Anyway, Grove Street was part of the AC Pasadena campus and it did run by the Library, which served as the AC/WCG admin building before the Hall of Administration was built in 1968/1969. It was eventually closed as a public street and became a paved walkway on the campus.
If this effort gets posted but my earlier one does not,then I will give some more details in a subsequent post.
Until then, I shall attempt to do all things "in moderation"...
Well, maybe if the validity of that mysterious vote has a bearing on the validity of the present WCG's governmental structure....
the WCG can start a "dig" on the old campus to find artifacts related to the vote.
Maybe they can enlist Ron Wyatt, that dude who threw an old wheel into the water, then claimed to have found evidence of escaping, pursued Israelites traveling through a parted Red Sea: "Look! A chariot wheel!"
Wyatt can throw a bunch of ballots into a hole in the ground at a "big dig" in Pasadena and then subsequently "discover" them, too.
My guess, though, is that Tkach & Co have already dug themselves into a hole plenty deep.
Let me give this dying horse a few more whacks.
The address of 363 Grove Street was on the Pasadena AC campus and was the address for the Library - which served as the AC/WCG admin bldg until the new Hall of Administration was built in 1968. HWA had his office on the top floor (penthouse, as he liked to say) of the Library until the new Hall of Ad opened.
Grove Street ran west-to-east from Orange Grove Blvd to St. John's Avenue. HWA's house was on the NE corner of Orange Grove Blvd and Grove Street. Several apartment buildings on Grove had been converted to dorms, e.g. 390 Grove, 380 Grove, and 360 Grove. The street (going west to east) ran down the hill from HWA's house, past the Library on one side and the dorms on the other, across Terrace Drive and then past the gym, tennis courts, track and a parking lot.
The "meeting" at which church "voted" to change the name of the church was a regular sabbath service held in the gym. (This was before the Auditorium was built.) I was there. There was no "voting" on this or any other issue. HWA simply announced that the name of the church was being changed.
As I recall, Stan Rader - some years later - explained that HWA had discussed this in the HQ church and no one had voiced any objections. The number of people recorded as "voting" was the total for the number of people in attendance at church that day in the gym - either at that main service or counting both services that day. The 363 Grove address was recorded as the place of the vote because that was the physical address of the church's admin bldg at the time. No grand conspiracy was involved, just fudging the facts (lying) to cover the required legal procedures.
I think John Trechak covered this in one of his Ambassador Report publications.
Whoa - a brain dump of 40 year-old information. I need to go lie down now.
>>>Err Bill, the link you gave at zillow.com is for the Sierra Madre address. So why would you be surprised that no one from WCG owns it? It's in a different city!
It can't be Ralph Helge's current place. He's over next to the Rose Bowl...
Stan
From AR68: Council of Elders of the unincorporated Assocation has the final vote:
In the course of the WCG board's discussions of the new corporate direction, Dr. Schnippert explained what is meant in church documents by the term "the Association." Most who would have read the legal documents would have concluded that the term referred to the WCG's lay membership, or at least to its full ministry. Not so, says Schnippert. The way the board looks at it, "the Association" refers only to the WCG's Council of Elders - all of whom are handpicked by Tkach and all of whom can be fired by him at will.
Stan
Paco:
Moderation has been lifted since Tom walked off in a huff of righteousness. I haven't moderated anything on this thread.
>>The "meeting" at which church "voted" to change the name of the church was a regular sabbath service held in the gym.
The amendment Armstrong signed states both member votes on the two separate resolutions passed and the board meeting all took place on a Friday, not a Saturday.
January 5, 1968 fell on a Friday.
Stan
Stan,
Jan 5, 1968 was a Friday - I just checked that myself because I was curious. So, the wcg folks lied about the date of the "meeting" as well as the "voting" in their official document. As I said in my earlier post, HWA made the announcement of the name change at sabbath services. Some years later Stan Rader offered the explanation that the "voting' had taken place at the HQ church and the 5,000+ votes recorded was the number of people in attendance who did not object.
I am not attempting to defend the amendment or the explanation, just to pass along what I recall about the issue.
Also - Gavin, I must have screwed up my first attempt to post on this topic and appreciate the fact that we are back on the honor system.
Al Portune has specifically denied any such member meeting occurred. The building itself holds 400 max. Stan Rader offers a convenient, plausible "what probably happened" ballot explanation to fit the amendments Armstrong filed, but didn't sign them himself under penalty of perjury.
In any case, would such a voice vote strictly comply with the unpublished corporation fair notice rules and other such bylaws for member votes?
AR11(1980)quotes William C. Martin of Rice University in an Atlantic magazine article:
"What almost no one, including Garner Ted, recognized was that, should the church cease to exist, its assets, now worth an estimated $80 million, could be transferred into a non-profit foundation matching AICF's description. Such a transfer was made possible by a 1968 amendment to the church's Articles of Incorporation. According to the document, signed by Herbert W. Armstrong and Albert Portune, then secretary of the WCG, the board of directors and 5051 members of the church met at 363 Grove Street in Pasadena and voted in favor of the amendment in question. But Herbert Armstrong has never permitted voting on any matter pertaining to the church, the building at 363 Grove Street will hold no more than 400 people, and Portune, in a television interview, declared that no such meeting occurred. When I asked Rader about the document, he explained that 'it was probably a sabbath and each minister in the area read the proposed amendment to the members at the service that day, and since there was no voice of dissent, they were recorded as affirmative votes.' Reference to a foundation, he said, was just 'legal boilerplate.' That may have been the case when the document was written, but when I have shown it to present and former church members, they have grasped its implications immediately . I am confident they have not been entirely lost on Stanley Rader" (pp. 60-61).
Stan
The 1968 article members allegedly voted for contains the following provision for what would occur upon dissolution of the WCG California corporation:
"the remaining assets shall be distributed to a nonprofit fund, FOUNDATION or corporation, which is organized and operated exclusively for charitable, educational, and/or scientific purposes..."
Tkach Sr. shortly after taking office (lawfully?) modified this same remaining asset distribution provision WITHOUT a member vote- changing it, to read that upon dissolution of the WCG corporation the control of remaining assets go to the unincorporated WCG Association which the Pastor General controls.
Stan
To refresh our memory, if the unincorporated Association yanks the charter of the California corporation, who gets the remaining dough from the corporation?
In order from first to last:
A. The WCG unincorporated Association which the Pastor General controls completely; but if not, then
B. The individual members of the Advisory Council of Elders of the unincorporated Association in trust for religious purposes; but if not then,
C. The organization, corporation or trustee or other entity supported by the Pastor General of the Association, but if not then,
D. Ambassador College, a California nonprofit corporation; which is still in 2008 an active California nonprofit corporation maintained by the unincorporated Association of the WCG.
Tkach's excuse for not taking a legitimate vote on the above by the church members:
The Restated Articles do not themselves amend the Articles of Incorporation of said corporation and no approval of this certificate by the members is required.
Stan
Ambassador College is continuing on as an active corporation:
AMBASSADOR COLLEGE
Number: C0253016 Date Filed: 4/6/1951 Status: ACTIVE
Address
2011 E FINANCIAL WAY
GLENDORA, CA 91741
Agent for Service of Process
Mathew H. Morgan
Here's the Ambassador Foundation:
AMBASSADOR FOUNDATION
Number: C1966789 Date Filed: 4/19/1996 Status: active
Jurisdiction: California
Address
2011 E FINANCIAL WAY
GLENDORA, CA 91741-4602
Agent for Service of Process
MATHEW MORGAN
Stan
Paco said:
"Whoa - a brain dump of 40 year-old information. I need to go lie down now."
For sure! It's difficult not to "care" about this and all the CGO stuff we have packed in our neurons. I have to remind myself at times that "it's all in your head Dennis. It's not real anymore." And so, aside from wishing to spare others a similiar experience, I believe we keep these things alive.
However, how many COG die hards or newbies to the various forms of it all have stopped to think and backed away at the advice of others? Probably precious few. People seem to need to have the experience they choose and then learn what they learn along their own way.
Here is one of my favorite quotes to keep me from getting too stuck in the head over WCG/COG issues and experiences, if it helps.
" A man told his grandson: "A terrible fight is going on inside me -- a fight between two wolves. One is evil, and represents hate, anger, arrogance, intolerance, and superiority . The other is good, and represents joy, peace, love, tolerance, understanding, humility, kindness, empathy, generosity, and compassion. This same fight is going on inside you, inside every other person too."
The grandson then asked: "Which wolf will win?"
The old man replied simply: "The one you feed."
I'm John POPE, and yesterday, April 17, I was quite peeved with Ron Weinland, but I got over it.
Late breaking news:
Prophet Ronnie the Terrible strikes first blow at USA. 5.2 earthquake hits midwest. The doomday clock is now at 59 seconds and counting down, REPENT!!!
So - I get up this morning and discover:
1. Ironwolf's Weinland Final Daze Countdown Clock has expired;
2. The Pope is not peeved;
3. No German or EU troops in my neighborhood;
4. No mushroom-shaped clouds in the sky;
5. No newly dead honchos from the various xcg's;
6. No thunder(s)
7. The Two Witnesses are no-shows.
I realize that, somehow, this must all be my fault. I probably should send someone some money. And, I gotta go to work - AGAIN! What a Great Disappointment - AGAIN!
The Two Witnesses may be no-shows but Ronnie has decided to release the name of the second witless a day early.
Well that was anti-climactic.
"Some have been overly anxious and finding fault with this not having been posted early in the day. This fits in quite well with the sermon that will be given this Sabbath, as God gives plenty of rope to those who seek to find fault with Him and His people."
Ronnie is already in damage control mode, cutting off any criticism before it can even begin. I'll bet he spends a large portion of the Sabbath sermon railing against those who are 'weak in the faith' and who 'doubt and question.'
When it comes to manipulation, I have nothing but awe for these guys. They're good- damn good. Of course, Ronnie and Pack probably learned at the feet of HWA, but still, it takes effort.
The Apostate Paul
Maybe the Tribulation has begun. My hemorrhoids really flared up yesterday.
One of the ploys that Weinland may use to sidestep criticism is to suddenly proclaim that he is receiving direct communications from God and that God has modified the schedule. This covers up his error or charade or whatever it was and at the same time increases his stature in the minds of his followers.
What we can be sure of is that none of his followers will say "I go fishing." And Weinland knew this already. To be convinced of the continuing dedication of Weinland's followers, watch some of the TV interviews of the FLDS women -- same thing. It is eerie and at the same time very familiar.
-- Neo
According to Wienland's website, the second witness has now been revealed:
"Having said that, more will be said in the months to come, but now is the time to publicly reveal the name of the second end-time witness. It is my wife Laura".
MY COMMENT: Boy is this guy ever delusional!
What ever happen to old time WCG doctrine of women being silent and not being permitted to preach? Let's see, women can't preach in Sabbath Services, but they can be one of the two final witnesses dressed in sackcloth and calling fire down from heaven?
Well, the 17th of April has past with nothing eventful (surprise, surprise), and I guess Weinland will have to put some sort of spin on things to keep the suckers (ooops, I mean godly tithe payers) from abandoning him with their wallets.
Or maybe the guy just wanted a free vacation to Jerusalem and didn't know any other way to finance it!
Richard
Oh, my apologies to Neo - I didn't want to imply in my last post that his hemorrhoids really flaring up yesterday wasn't an end time event of tribulation.
Richard
Well now that we know it's Mrs. Ron...we know she'll have to be under his guidance and if she has any questions, she should ask her husband, I believe is the criteria for NT women.
Ron noted:
"I’ve had difficulty getting this post on the website completed, as I have had some strange technical difficulties that we still have not fully figured out. But after a call back to the states, I have been able to use a different method than normal for getting this done."
It's the Mossad XP you're probably running into trouble with. Change to Vista (just kidding) and open your eyes Ron. Try to see things outside of the movies that play in your head with the Script of Revelation tainting everything you observe.
What's the combined income of a husband and wife Two Witness team?
Johnny Harrell:
"Oh man, I came all the way over here hoping against hope but ohhhhh noooooooo, you gives it to da little woman. How the hell am I suppose to go back to church now with my manhood intact?"
Neo opined (behold, I blame him not!) and noted:
"Maybe the Tribulation has begun. My hemorrhoids really flared up yesterday.
The Plain Truth and Solution to Tribulational Hemorrhoids.
"If you disobey the Old Testament's laws, God will give you hemorrhoids (along with other nasty things).
The LORD will smite thee with the botch of Egypt, and with the emerods, and with the scab, and with the itch, whereof thou canst not be healed. -- Deuteronomy 28:27
Obviously Preparation H had not yet come on the scene.
"God smote an entire city (Asdod) with "emerods [hemorrhoids] in their secret parts."
"the hand of the LORD was against the city with a very great destruction: and he smote the men of the city, both small and great, and they had emerods in their secret parts." -- 1 Samuel 5:6-7
"And the men that died not were smitten with the emerods: and the cry of the city went up to heaven." 1 Samuel 5:12
I imagine it did! No ifs, ands or butts.
However, there is a solution: Expensive but effetive no doubt, 'cause it's in the Bible.
"...Then he ordered the same city to make him five golden hemorrhoids (and five golden mice) as a "trespass offering."
What shall be the trespass offering which we shall return to him? They answered, Five golden emerods, and five golden mice ... Wherefore ye shall make images of your emerods, and images of your mice that mar the land; and ye shall give glory unto the God of Israel: peradventure he will lighten his hand from off you, and from off your gods. -- 1 Samuel 6:4-5
What more can I say :)
The theory of energy anatomy would indicate that if the idea of someone or something gives you hemmorrhoids, the topic is a pain in the..... to one, and manifests itself as such.
We all have them!
"....peradventure he will lighten his hand from off you, and from off your gods. -- 1 Samuel 6:4-5
"
please not that YHVH, being jealous and all, was still competing with their gods at this time. God's with hemmorrhoids can really mess up their receptivity to the cries of the faithful.
And one more thing...
May I suggest a good listen to Bart Ehrman's lecture on the NT by any and all. None of us would be here of been there had we understood this to begin with. Dr. E himself went through the same process to get from there to hear as we find ourselves doing depending.
http://otagosh.blogspot.com/
Invest 90 minutes in Biblical reality for future sanity and as a way to relieve the "what if he is right" problem of prophetic narcissists.
@ RW: The Seventh Seal has been opened and now the First Trumpet has been blown. You will want to listen to the sermon given this Sabbath to learn much more @
Has anyone noticed Seals 1 to 6? Who's hiding in a cave?
Yes, Weinlandwatch, that was indeed anti climatic.
So, the second witness is named as Laura his wife. Maybe all the folks who thought as much have the gift of prophecy, too!
Oops. Sorry. There's only one prophet, R Dubya, because R Dubya says so.
I couldn't help but notice the statement from R Dubya saying,
"...God gives plenty of rope to those who seek to find fault with Him and His people."
Does this possibly mean that ronnie is simply giving HIMSELF lots of rope to wriggle out of, regarding things he's said will happen?
Funny how those cult leaders claim to never do anything wrong, while claiming that any perceived mistakes were all the fault of their sheep. And the questioners have a sceptre hanging over their heads from Almighty God for having questioned His Unquestionable Servant!
Hmmmmm......
Anonymous said...
There was a grove st. on the campus that became a walkway which is why it is not listed.
I think you are correct on that. That's probably the granite stone walkway that was also a firelane.
Portune, in a television interview, declared that no such meeting occurred.
When I asked Rader about the document, he explained that 'it was probably a sabbath and each minister in the area read the proposed amendment to the members at the service that day, and since there was no voice of dissent, they were recorded as affirmative votes.'
And we all know that if any dissent "votes" were heard, the deacons would have escorted said "voters" right out of the Dwight Armstrong enhanced "voting booth".
The "rope to hang themselves with" was in response to my comments about Mike McConnell giving Weinland free reign on the air, in other words (I said) giving him (Weinland) "enough rope to hang himself with metaphorically."
"Does this possibly mean that ronnie is simply giving HIMSELF lots of rope to wriggle out of, regarding things he's said will happen?"
Have you not read? The Bible has more than enough rope for RW to quote.
Genesis 3:
8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you two?"
10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I haven't been right up to this point; so I hid."
11 And he said, "Who told you that you that you have not been right up to this point." Have you appointed your wife or some woman as the second witness?"
12 The man said, Well, sorta, BUT THE WOMAN, YOU PUT HERE WITH ME—SHE gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it. She also said that if I didn't make her the second witness there would be hell to pay"
13 "Oh, sorry about that."
Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?"
The woman said, "Err, ummm The serpent deceived me, and I took the job."
And the Serpent said, "The hell I did!
So see, from scripture, we can pass the burden of foolishness along the chain of command and once again prove that we men can be glad we were not born female!
>>And we all know that if any dissent "votes" were heard, the deacons would have escorted said "voters" right out of the Dwight Armstrong enhanced "voting booth"
Tkach might have fixed the WCG corporation member bylaws voting problem completely to his own satisfaction. Hide the bylaws and take away the WCG voting booth!
"Just take their gol darn grace-filled member vote away entirely!", he thought. "Much less muss and fuss dealing with those pesky lay members asking too many pointed questions" about an unaccountable Pastor General who accounts to no one except his imperial self.
Tkach, instead of calling for a member voe as he should have, called the very same type of amendment "voted for" in 1968 a restatement, which is legally questionable and challengeable. Now why couldn't Stanley Rader have thought of that: Eliminate the member's votes with the bylaws loophole Tkach is now waltzing through.
Stan
My WCG parrot just said:
Bawk! Bawk!
Weinland's a fraud! Weinland's a fraud!
Bawk! Bawk!
Weinland's a fraud! Weinland's a fraud!
I think the significant question is whether Tribulational Hemorrhoids are pre-rapture or post-rapture. (I should mention that I don't believe in The Rapture.)
Does anyone know anything about Weinland's wife. I remember her at Big Sandy. It seems like she is an American girl that he met at Bricket Wood.
-- Neo
Neo pondered:
"I think the significant question is whether Tribulational Hemorrhoids are pre-rapture or post-rapture. (I should mention that I don't believe in The Rapture.)"
Pre Ruptural Hemorrhoidal Tribulatiory Beliefs are debatable. However Post Ruptural Hermorrhoids are certainly Tribulational and less subject to doubting and skepticism and stand up well to close scrutiny...ewww
Can you imagine Mrs Weinland as a teen in college sitting in an AC Bible Class imagining that someday, if she married the right minister, she and he would be the Two Witnesses of Revelation. I wonder if God went on grade point averages or what?
Everyone seems to be having trouble with their emeRODS.We trust that in all this religious confusion they don't confuse Prep H with a certain proprietary Dental Cream.They could end up with shrunken gums and a ring of confidence.
And then of course there is "the botch of Egypt".Today we are afflicted with the "botch" of Weinland. An humungus botch-up as to his identity.
Herb noted the gunlap as being the terminal one. He forget about the "bur-lap", the time in which the two witnesses would be thus clothed. This,of course, will be one of the identifying signs of the two witnesses. One wonders if Ron is brave and humble enough to don this "hairshirt". I wonder if he will use recycled sacks or choose virgin cloth.
We live in interesting times.
Jorgheinz
Corky said: The NT says that he was coming back "soon" but 2,000 years says that he's not.
No, the New Testament says He "is coming quickly," not "is coming BACK quickly." There's more to the coming of Christ than the Second Coming.
That's right, they didn't, but we have translations in plain English.
That still doesn't mean you can just pick up a Bible, read the "plain English," and assume you understand what it says. You also have to understand the historical background, the cultural and religious surroundings and presuppositions, the idiomatic expressions of the original languages, the purpose and genre of the writing, the author's intent, the concerns of the audience . . .
So you imagine that Gone With the Wind or other popular novels require interpretation?
Of course they do. Do you really think they don't? If you knew nothing, or next to nothing, of the Civil War, or the culture of the antebellum South, do you think you'd really understand Gone With the Wind? You know these things and bring them with you when you open the book to read, so you can interpret the novel correctly.
You just wrote several paragraphs that require no interpretation, I literally understood them with no problem at all.
That's because you and I have enough shared information and common experience that we can have this discussion. Bring somebody in with no background in Armstrongism or Adventism or even Christianity, who has never read a Bible, and have them listen over our shoulders -- he's not going to understand what we're talking about, or even why it's important to us. Somebody would have to explain things to him.
However, I don't believe the "apostolic succession" story at all and just about everyone knows that the Psalms do not say what Peter says about a thousand years being one day in a future sense.
It's not a direct quote, but it's accepted that Peter (or the unknown author impersonating Peter, as many prefer, though without adequate grounds) was referring to Psalm 89 and applying what it says about God's "perception" of time to the situation in his day.
When Jesus said "this generation" he did not mean a god generation,
Yes, He probably meant "generation" in the sense of "gens" or people.
when he said "soon" and "at hand" he did not mean thousands of years, because he was talking to humans not gods.
He comes in every moment.
When the scribes copied the copies of the NT it was easier to leave it pretty much as is, knowing that any problems could always be explained away
No, it was easier not to copy the New Testament books at all. (Handcopying books is very difficult work.) The less words to copy, the better -- so why not leave out the difficult and inconvenient bits, if they really mean what you say?
Jared Olar said...
No, it was easier not to copy the New Testament books at all. (Handcopying books is very difficult work.) The less words to copy, the better -- so why not leave out the difficult and inconvenient bits, if they really mean what you say?
Two reasons. For one, a lot of people were familiar with what the copies said.
For another, leaving out the hundreds of passages that suggested or outright said that Jesus' return was soon they wouldn't have much of a book left to copy and what they had left, wouldn't make any sense at all.
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