a) Paul
b) John
c) Solomon
d) Moses
c) Art Mokarow
Well, Paul has seven uncontested letters, the Johannine corpus is a bit of a mess (is John the Elder the same as John the Disciple, and what about John of Patmos?) but given the most generous estimate it can't go beyond five. Solomon was credited with Proverbs and Ecclesiastes, but even if that was so (and it isn't) it counts as only two. Moses has four to his credit, if you discount the efforts of JEP and D...
But Art Mokarow is clearly the winner, and here's proof from an ad appearing on Alan Ruth's Journal website (Alan is webmaster, and seems to be contracted to handle its day to day running.)
Order Free CD that unlocks the Bible's Mysteries
by Art Mokarow, author of 12 Biblical books!
Impressive!
94 comments:
Gavin asked, who wrote the most biblical books?
>>>Well, Paul has seven uncontested letters,<<<
According to my bible, Paul wrote 15 epistles. Which seven have been accepted as authentic, and who is contesting the authenticity of the other eight?
>>>Solomon was credited with Proverbs and Ecclesiastes, but even if that was so (and it isn't) it counts as only two.<<<
Are you able to provide any evidence to support your assertion, that Solomon didn't write the book of Proverbs and Ecclesiastes?
The answer to this one is easy. Fred Coulter. Go to his web http://www.cbcg.org/ and read his latest monthly letter to his people. His writings are by far the most accurate and complete. And the most spiritual.
If anyone believes this, I can tell you a bigger one.
He has written the whole Bible, not just a few books.
Wow, what a guy!
Tom asks Gavin: Blah blah...
Thomas, those would be topics one would spend a very long time coming to understand and they would not satisfy your needs for a quick fix.
I recommmended this several hundred posts ago for you but once again.
"Paul the Mythmaker" Hyam Jaccoby
"Anti Semitism" in the NT
Freudman
Anybook by Karen Armstrong or Ellaine Pagels.
"Resucing the Bible from Fundamentalism" John S. Spong
"Who Wrote the Bible?"
Or if you are in the 21st century...just punch in "Paul Original Writings" or so in a search. "Egyptian Book of the Dead Psalms" may be enlightening too. "Astro-Theology" will absolutely crack your noodle.
There is no excuse for lack of places to look FOR ONESELF in this day and age of Internet.
After all, as long as "knowledge shall be increased" before the last days, we may as well take advantage of it.
"Rescuing the Bible From Fundamentalism"
Never let just one man or small number of men tell you how it all is. This is a fault we overlook with the Bible as a whole.
"Look at every path closely and deliberately, then ask ourselves this crucial question: Does this path have a heart? If it does, then the path is good. If it doesn't, it is of no use."
Carlos Castaneda
"I think the new spirituality will be a spirituality that's not based on a particular dogma. And that steps away from the old spiritual paradigm that we have created on this planet, which comes from a thought that there is such a thing as being better.
The new spirituality is that it will produce an experience in human encounters in which we become a living demonstration of the basic spiritual teaching; We are all one.
A life lived of choice is a life of conscious action. A life lived of chance is a life of unconscious creation.
You think of yourselves as humans searching for a spiritual awakening, when in fact you are spiritual beings attempting to cope with a human awakening. Seeing yourselves from the perspective of the spirit within will help you to remember why you came here and what you came here to do.
We're seeing a higher level of consciousness and many more opportunities for people to challenge their present ways of thinking and move into a grander and larger experience of who they really are.
We've seen in the last half century an incredible shift. This is just an extraordinary time to be alive... I believe we've come back during this time, those of us who are here now, specifically to experience it. And to cause a quickening of the spirit.
ALL ATTCH IS A CALL FOR HELP.
There is only one reason to do anything: as a statement to the universe of Who You Are.
All you see in your world is the outcome of your idea about it."
Neale Donald Walsch
sheesh..."All Attack is a call for help."
Ok, amen , have a good weekend all. :)
Say, is Flurry ever going to get around to canonizing Mystery of the Ages and Malachi's Message?
I mean, now that both works have been properly edited and corrected (like the Book of Mormon was), what's keeping him from dividing the chapters into verses? What's taking so long?
Or how about an HWA anthology of MOTA, IHP, USBCP, and MDS? Number all the paragraphs, and then we can quote him the way we quote Josephus! (Antiq. 1:3:5)
Libro
Whoops -- forgot to include the Autobiography in that anthology. Can't forget that...
And like Josephus, we need a few short sections too -- booklets like "Does God Heal Today?" and "Has Time Been Lost?" That last booklet is especially important to include, because then people can argue over its authorship just like we do 2 Peter!
Libro
Quality, not quantity should be the order of the day, based on Alexander Pope's, "Where words like leaves abound, little fruit of sense beneath is found".
How about that author who once said to various church of gods,
Judgment, if any awaits?
Does it not remind you of the song, "It won't be long now"?
TS said:
"Does it not remind you of the song, "It won't be long now"?
Well it wasn't! We just didn't know what "it" was, but now we do!
"The Changes"
The Egyptian Book of the Dead (the original version of the Psalms) is not so much enlightening as mind-blowing. Puts everything in perspective. And by everything I mean the entire christian religion and where it really came from.
Also recommended reading is the Nag Hammadi books. Wanna see how actual christian believers practiced their beliefs on the ground, in "biblical" times. The Nag Hammadi is for you!
Want to stick with the narrowly-defined, terribly errant, and clear-as-mud "canonical" texts because the canonical texts tell you to (the bible is right because the bible says it is how convenient)? More power to you. You won't have a very well-rounded view of either yourself, or other people though. I'm just saying.
Even the KJV has an apocrypha. Book of Baruch anybody??
The Egyptian Book of the Dead (the original version of the Psalms) is not so much enlightening as mind-blowing.
Oh, I don't know. It looks more like a collection of scripts for Stargate SG-1.
The Idiot: "Are you able to provide any evidence to support your assertion, that Solomon didn't write the book of Proverbs and Ecclesiastes?"
Are you able to provide any evidence they did???
Gavin: Regarding Dixon Cartwright,
I would agree that he takes a much more liberal stance than most Armstrongists. Though he is not thoroughly exclusionary, he is essentially so. What is the marginal value of liberal Armstrongism over conservative Armstrongism? It is like getting fatally stabbed with a little knife rather than a big knife.
Cartwright was trained in the same school that you and I were. When a lay member is ill, it is at most a local event. When a Armstrongist minister or a member of his family is ill, it is an international event. When a lay members daughter gets accepted to a major private college, it is hardly worth comment. If a ministers daughter goes to SEP it is something that has to be profoundly recognized. If an Armstrongist minister has a problem with the air conditioner in his fleet car, it is a larger problem than the war in Iraq. You know the deal.
Dixon Cartwright stems from the same class-conscious substrate. Given a choice between publishing an article by Dennis Diehl or Al Portune, on one hand, or Tom Mahon on the other, Cartwright will choose Diehl or Portune every time. As you observe, there may be an occasional exception.
-- Neo
First, regarding Art Mokarow, even people who no longer believe, or no longer believe in WCG have commented as to depths of his knowledge and understanding of the scriptures. I don't specifically recall any of his sermons, however the word is that he was one of the very few ministers who was capable of giving a sermon without machine-gunning scriptures at the brethren. His style was one of sparse scripture usage, and depth of expounding upon the meanings contained therein.
As for Tom's inquiry, I really don't believe that one need go to extensive secular works, apocryphal or spurious works, or even ancient Egyptian manuscripts for the answer. All one need do is go to the nearest book store and purchase an intellectually honest version of the Bible. The New American Bible, St. Joseph's Edition, contains extensive notes. It is a fairly exhaustive study Bible, a new and fresh translation by some of the best living scholars, and takes into account such factors as the known theology and literary styles of the presumed authors of the various books and epistles. The notes explain which traditionally presumed authorships are in question and why. Why is this necessary? One of the literary trends of the early Apostolic era was pseudoepigraphal writings. A writer would utilize the name of a better known person to add authority to his work.
BTW, the NAB is based on the comparison of thousands of available manuscripts, and the notes tell the reader what specific words were in later manuscripts that were not found in earlier ones, and other helpful things. The student of the NAB is a fully informed student, as there is full disclosure in the notes.
I must comment that if a person is a new Christian, and possibly not familiar with many of the things which we discuss here, or if errancy might tend to destroy a person's faith, perhaps this is not the version for that person to use just yet. IMO, the NAB is a very scholarly Bible, an extremely effective and very honest tool.
BB
Neotherm said...
>>>Given a choice between publishing an article by Dennis Diehl or Al Portune, on one hand, or Tom Mahon on the other, Cartwright will choose Diehl or Portune every time.<<<
I believe you are making a factual observation, which no honest person will deny, based upon the evidence before us.
Concerning the issues in cog-land, it is often believed that ministers have a much more valuable contribution to make in helping people to understand what was going on in WCG. It is not a view that I share, because the ministry was much more corrupt than anyone could have imagined. So how can corrupt men, driven by ambition and greed help anyone understand why the system they operated was corrupt? It takes decent, honest people to exposed corruption, and identify its causes.
However, Dixon has previously published some of my letters. I had a number of letters published when I responded to Anthony Buzzard's nonsensical idea that Jesus didn't exist before his incarnation. So I believe Dixon will published my article, though he might edit it to temper the forcefulness of my prose.
Based on my observations both here and on other sites, and having been both agnostic, and now a believer, I am of the opinion that most folks either consciously or subconsciously pick their belief system, or lack thereof, and are drawn to the types of information which tend to support their choice.
This, of course, is assuming that individuals are pursuing a path of their own making and directions, independently of God, or any particular "calling". The God factor appears to become the one intangible in our discussions, and may be perceivable, or imperceivable at any given time, by random participants in the discussions.
I've always alluded to "live" and "Memorex" in my posts to denote what is real, and what is imaginary or fabricated. The question all of us must honestly answer internally, I guess, remains, "Is it live, or is it Memorex?"
BB
Art Mokarow, when he speaks has the talent to make a person think , rather than just spoon feed an agenda. I always enjoy a speaker or teacher who motivates thinking and new thought rather than just promoting memorizing the "truth as I see it, and you should too".
My nomination and vote for most prolific writer, (although not necessarily thru the medium of books alone) would have to go to Bill Dankenbring whose voluminous self written "Prophecy Flash" goes forth 12 times a year with some of the most off beat, speculative, at times entertaining and "National Enquirish" COG writings to be found.
Bill Lussenheide, Menifee CA USA
Byker Bob said...
>>>As for Tom's inquiry, I really don't believe that one need go to extensive secular works, apocryphal or spurious works, or even ancient Egyptian manuscripts for the answer.<<<
That depends on who you are! If you are Dennis, Paul, Corky or the erudite Douglas, then, any insane, fictional scribble will do!
>>>All one need do is go to the nearest book store and purchase an intellectually honest version of the Bible.<<<
Who is to decided which version is intellectual honest? Why is the King James version of 1611 not intellectually honest?
It should be "expose," not "exposed." I only spotted the typo after I hit the publish button.
So Dennis, please devote your time to much more valuable things than trying to correct my use of the English language. You are barking up a green tree!
If you are Tom Mahon, any insane, fictional scribble by that great dead false prophet, Herbert Armstrong will do!
By the way, it would be unfair to claim that Herbert Armstrong wrote the most Biblical books. Plagiarized perhaps, but not written in the original creative sense [although he did create quite a number of heresies].
One of the many lies and deceptions fostered by Herbert Armstrong was that he was the one who established keeping the Feasts in the Twentieth Century. That, of course, is totally untrue. There are Sabbatarians who have been keeping the annual Feasts and Holydays since at least the 1920s and before, long before Herbert Armstrong came on the scene. They still keep them today, but without all the gore of murders and suicides one has come to associate with sermons and sermonettes of the Feast of Tabernacles from former WCG ministers now in the xCGs. Herbert Armstrong stole the idea, just as his other ideas. Plagiarism produced some of his best original works.
And speaking of insane, fictional scribble, it's pretty clear that certainly did apply to the writings of Herbert Armstrong, but we don't need to go into the writings that even Tom Mahon reject these days, do we?
insane, fictional scribble
One assumes that Tom Mahon is referring to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders by the American Psychiatric Association, which describes his behavior perfectly in some of the sections.
To call it insane is rather borderline, since it is about insanity, but not really insane -- at least not in the commonly accepted way as prescribed by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, which, if you get the drift, is rather tautological.
What's fascinating to me, apart from the disparate philosophies espoused by them all, is the number of one-time ministers of the WCG who have reappeared some 20 or 30 years later and are not only considered to be "in the faith" by others in COG-land, but are still (or once again) accepted as authoritative authors and speakers on theological subjects.
Mokarow is one; he was once a pretty high-profile WCG cleric. Wayne Cole was another, biding his time for 15 years or so before Dave Havir's church gave him a place to affiliate. Al Carozzo's name has reappeared. And so many others.
Interesting how their reputations, and those of so many others (probably going all the way back to Carl O'Beirn or before), have been rehabilitated among the COG set by 1.) the death of HWA and 2.) the changes in the WCG.
Tom,
I seriously suggest that you gain an understanding on how the English translations of the Bible were put together. There are honest scholars out there who have spent their lives studying such matters and know much more about it than you or I.
Do you realize that no originals exist? If you read the introduction to any bible, you will see that hundreds of scholars were assembled and took years to complete the task. Do you know why? For literally every sentence in the bible, dozens or hundreds of ancient documents exist, often fragmentary, all hand-copies of hand-copies, which all differ from one another. Often on minor items, sometimes on major items. The scholars try to figure out which version is "right", and that one gets translated into english and gets into their bible. That's a simplified description of the process, but you get the idea. There's no "orginal" bible out there. And there never was. There are only copies of copies, all hundreds of years after the original writings and changed along the way, that of course all differ. Whether you believe it or not, its true, and you could read about or go to museums and look at them if you don't believe me.
The closest thing we have to an "orignal" bible is the Codex Sinaiticus, which was written circa 325 AD, and contains most but not all of the books in our modern bibles and also includes a few books that are not in our modern bibles. Needless to say, many words, chapters and verses within the Codex Sinaiticus vary greatly from our current bibles.
The King James Bible was quite any accomplishment for its time. However, it was put together based on a specific set of documents that were available at that time, which even at that time differed in many respects from many other version documents. Since 1611, MANY ancient scrolls, codices and fragments have been discovered which lend support to alternate reditions in many cases. Hence the newer versions are superior.
The Skeptic
Tom,
On another issue, surely you realize that nearly every book of the bible is anonymous. For example, there's no reason to think the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were really written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The books certainly don't say within them who the authors were.
The names were, for the most part, imputed to the books by others based on who knows what, usually in an attempt to give them credibility.
The Skeptic
Tom Mahon said...It should be "expose," not "exposed." I only spotted the typo after I hit the publish button.
So Dennis, please devote your time to much more valuable things than trying to correct my use of the English language. You are barking up a green tree!"
You are barking up the WRONG tree. :)
Uh Tom...I never said the above quote. You have commited false attribution, or attrition, or maybe it's arbitration..I forget.
I don't care if "expose" or have "exposed" yourself. I never mentioned it to you.
Tom, you are amazing. When you first appeared you spent your time telling everyone about syntax, spelling and context. Then after about twenty gaffs of your own, you quit. Now you are telling people to find better things to do than correct your use of words and spelling.
The whole thing is palbably turgid!
Tom:
I would suggest that you not respond to people who engage in the infantile act of using derogatory, personal terms.
Maybe they will give us a break and go away.
-- Neo
RIPLEY OPINED:
"Interesting how their reputations, and those of so many others (probably going all the way back to Carl O'Beirn or before), have been rehabilitated among the COG set by 1.) the death of HWA and 2.) the changes in the WCG."
MY COMMMENT:
You just aint "Jack Dididly" unless you have ever been told by some COG somewhere that "you aint welcome here anymore".
Since this is now virtually a universal event for ANYONE that is left in the COG, folks from the past are no longer an "us and them" proposition, as we have now morphed into a universal "COG refugee" of some sort, and thus we are all an "US" again!
Kind of like the way WWII guys will get together in their old age, Nazi pilots and US Pilots, sharing pictures of the grand kids, and recollecting the high adventure and crucible of youth.
Villains of yesteryear become actors and participants of the staged drama of our youth, and getting together again is not one necessarily of brotherhood, but one of an attempt to put it in some form of context for all, all sides considered.
A great book has to have the protaganists, antagonists, and the crucible of struggle to be good.
Call these resurgent folks the necessarily characters for the play or "show to go on".
Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA
Art Mokarow's belief is this regarding tithing, the priesthood etc.(at least at one point it was his view, unless he has changed his viewpoint) To quote Art, "It is your choice, but God is not satisfied by tithes. Christians are to give everything they have. No minister is a LEVITE. Christians are only a priesthood of Melchizidec who have no LEVITES. The LAW demands tithes to be given only to Levites WHO HAVE NO INHERITANCE. Christians do (Ephesians 1)."
After looking at his viewpoint I am still convinced tithing is a wonderful privilege, the ministry is not the Levitical priesthood to pay the tithes to, the scriptures do not demand tithes to be given only to Levites. We need to examine the scriptures and ask for God's guidance. What is He saying to you?
To answer the first part of Tom's query, the seven uncontested letters of Paul are:
Romans
Galatians
Philippians
Philemon
1 Corinthians
2 Corinthians
1 Thessalonians
The 3 letters regarded as Deutero-Pauline (written by a later hand) are:
2 Thessalonians
Colossians
Ephesians
The 3 Pastoral letters, also regarded as full of anachronisms and written much later, are:
Titus
1 Timothy
2 Timothy
Hebrews does not claim to be written by Paul, and was regarded as non-Pauline from a very early date.
I'm not sure where you get the 15th.
Gavin said...
Hebrews does not claim to be written by Paul, and was regarded as non-Pauline from a very early date.
I'm not sure where you get the 15th.
*******************************
Maybe Tom is limited on his ability to count past 14????????
Bill Lussenheide says:
"My nomination and vote for most prolific writer, (although not necessarily thru the medium of books alone) would have to go to Bill Dankenbring whose voluminous self written "Prophecy Flash" goes forth 12 times a year with some of the most off beat, speculative, at times entertaining and "National Enquirish" COG writings to be found."
What? Dankenbring is still churning out that screed?! Wow. Guess he can afford it: What with using his membership's tithes to fund his and his family's all-expenses paid vacations to Jerusalem each year so he can sniff grain sheaves on the Solstice moons. You want off beat? Just check out "The Holy Days According to Bill". Now that friends is off-beat!
That calendar is the only reason Dankenbring's micro-mini-blink-and-you'll-miss-it-splinter is still in existence: Does anyone follow his calendar outside of his own group I wonder?
It would be difficult for most to realize that the Gospels were mostly unheard of until the last quarter of the Second Century. They certainly were not written by the names affixed.
If one goes by nothing being as they have been told, one will be closer to the truth.
Dennis to Tom:
"You are barking up the WRONG tree. :)"
No Dennis, he's pissing into the wind :-)
Upwind.
"I'm not sure where you get the 15th."
The Epistle to the Laodiceans?
It doesn't really matter that any of the WCG ministers of the past are writing "Biblical Books". They were all taught by and thoroughly indoctrinated by a false prophet. Scripture does not support the idea that God works through a false prophet, nor does it support the idea that God works through ministers taught by a false prophet.
Too bad for Scripture.
Objectively, it would certainly seem suspicious that those steeped in what is now obviously a religion founded and propelled by a false prophet with a death, devastation, destruction religion of fear would be acceptable to those who call themselves Christian. Note Matthew 7:15.
In fact, such men should be deemed to be worthless, no matter how nice they are today. Once disqualified, there is no particularly good reason to believe that they could be trusted and could be deemed to be anything but worthless.
It gets worse.
The self-congratulatory "good-ol'-boys' club" established a hierarchical class society where their importance was established by the fact they attended Ambassador College and were "a part of the establishment". Today, they are respected as senior survivors.
Instead, they should be known and noted for their senior moments.
It is difficult to ascertain of what worth they could ever be after giving years of terrible advice based on snap poor judgment, holding, as it were, the implied authority of God. They were wrong then. They have distorted perceptions inculcated within them with layer after layer of garbage interspersed with spiritual appearing empty filler.
To give them respect they have never earned is a terribly stupid idea. Furthermore, to submit to them is insanity: They haven't worked out their own lives -- why should anyone trust them to work out other people's lives?
That they write books and spew forth unfounded opinions forever colored by the wrong teachings they have received is pathetic. Why should we believe one thing they have to say?
And why should we honor them when they have so effectively and adeptly proved their gross incompetence?
Tom:
I would suggest that you not respond to people who engage in the infantile act of using derogatory, personal terms.
Maybe they will give us a break and go away.
It is Tom making the derogatory personal attacks out of the clear blue.
So all you victims of Tom's infantile acts need to go away because you are soooo immature. Never mind that Tom has been proved wrong time after time after time and can't even quote Scripture right in attempting to make Scriptural points.
You childish victims LEARN THIS: Tom wins! He is right no matter how wrong he is! That's just the way it is!
Which should certainly be familiar to those here who lived under such a non-workable venue for so many years under Armstrongism.
There's nothing like blaming the victims.
So if you have been insulted by Tom with his totally wrong-headed unprovable stupid gnostic pronouncements, JUST GO AWAY NOW!
Hey Neo, you are free to leave anytime. Oh and on the way out take the "Idiot" Tom with you.
My desire to elevate the level of debate by suggesting that we avoid childish name calling I think is reasonable to anybody. This is stuff that most of us learned in kindergarten.
It is not intended to be an endorsement of Tom or his particular approach.
I would even be offended if someone called Tired Skeptic or Lester an idiot.
-- Neo
Rules of the house:
No spittin'
No cussin'
No name callin' (moron, idiot...)
AND
No flagrant Herbolatry
The bouncer (the big Samoan bloke in the tux over by the framed portrait of Tom) is now on duty.
No cussin'
Oh, darn... those blasted holy socks!
No name callin' (moron, idiot...)
Whew! Imbecile and fool are still available!
The bouncer (the big Samoan bloke
It'd be more impressive it were Maori!
No flagrant Herbolatry
Uh, oh! Them's fightin' words in some parts!
No flagrant Herbolatry
But you must admit that committing idolatry using a dead person is so much better than committing idolatry with a person who is still alive.
A couple of folks mentioned Carl O'beirn... is he still around in CoGLand?
He was the one who insisted on the nonsense that everyone had to make temporary dwellings at the Feast of Tabernacles from literal palm fronds and that "we would be hearing much more about it from headquarters". This was right around the time he received an inheritance which put him in, shall we say, a stronger position within the Radio Church of God.
It also occurs to me that he was definitely not impressed with conscientious objectors: He treated them as though they were lower than dirt as far as I could tell.
And are you saying he's back and now considered a "senior voice"?
If true, that is just plain nuts.
'... There are Sabbatarians who have been keeping the annual Feasts and Holydays since at least the 1920s and before, long before Herbert Armstrong came on the scene...'
I've forgotten the reference - but does anyone recall hearing of a syndicated writer in the USA (black, I think) writing around 1890 who taught the Holy Days?
Anonymous said, "... There are Sabbatarians who have been keeping the annual Feasts and Holydays since at least the 1920s and before, long before Herbert Armstrong came on the scene...'
I've forgotten the reference - but does anyone recall hearing of a syndicated writer in the USA (black, I think) writing around 1890 who taught the Holy Days?"
MY COMMENT - The Church of God and Saints of Christ was founded in 1896 by African American William Saunders Crowdy. They are a Sabbatarian church community and keep the Days of Unleaven Bread with no ties to the SDAs/COG7D/WCG line of succession. There is information about this church available on the internet.
Richard
lussenheide, I hear you. From a COG context, it's about time the once-exiled were afforded "brother" status once again. The whole disfellowshipping and marking thing was a terrible fiasco.
I blew off the validity of the practice years ago while still in WCG. I also contended that if someone came to a knowledge of the Sabbath, holy days, etc., and was baptized, but it was through the CGI, for example, that it had to be just as valid as the same occurring within the WCG (our frame of reference at the time). There were people who thought me a heretic, but that's no surprise.
skeptic, you asked about Carl O'Beirn. Not saying he wasn't out there a bit; just saying that he'd at least have to be welcomed back into the discussion in the current COG context, I would think. Of course, he might not care to reconnect. He certainly understood the meaning of the word "lofty."
ripley said...
>>>Mokarow is one; he was once a pretty high-profile WCG cleric. Wayne Cole was another, biding his time for 15 years or so before Dave Havir's church gave him a place to affiliate. Al Carozzo's name has reappeared. And so many others.<<<
These may be described as vultures picking at the dead carcases of those who were abandoned by the hirelings, that were called ministers, in WCG.
"No minister is a LEVITE. Christians are only a priesthood of Melchizidec who have no LEVITES. The LAW demands tithes to be given only to Levites WHO HAVE NO INHERITANCE. Christians do (Ephesians 1)." "
correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Abraham tithe to Melchizidec?
Gavin said, "The bouncer (the big Samoan bloke in the tux over by the framed portrait of Tom) is now on duty."
MY COMMENT - Gavin, Did a picture of the self righteous pompous Tom finally find its way to you? Where can we see it?
It didn't see the adjectives I used to describe the "you know what" on your list.
Richard
Gavin said...
>>>The 3 letters regarded as Deutero-Pauline (written by a later hand) are:
2 Thessalonians
Colossians
Ephesians<<<
Well, I don't know whose other hand wrote the four epistles you mentioned, but Paul preached the gospel and established churches in Thessalonica and Ephesus.
It is fairly safe to say, that Paul wrote several letters to the Ephesian brethren, though only one was included in the canon of Scriptures. So I don't where you got the idea that the epistle to the Ephesians was by "a later hand."
Also, at a later date, Paul left Timothy at Ephesus to deal with some heretical ideas that were being circulated by false ministers.
>>>The 3 Pastoral letters, also regarded as full of anachronisms and written much later, are:
Titus
1 Timothy
2 Timothy<<<
The contents of the Pastoral epistles could not have been written by anyone other than Paul, as he was responsible for the care of all the churches.
However, it would be helpful if you could post a few examples of the "anachronisms."
>>>Hebrews does not claim to be written by Paul, and was regarded as non-Pauline from a very early date.<<<
In the epistle to the Hebrews, there is internal evidence that it was written by Paul. If you are open to persuasion, I will post the evidence.
>>>I'm not sure where you get the 15th.<<<
You cited a possible 14, but excluded Hebrews. You also omitted the epistle to Philimon. Including Hebrews and Philimon, I make that 15.
Anonymous said...
"No minister is a LEVITE. Christians are only a priesthood of Melchizidec who have no LEVITES. The LAW demands tithes to be given only to Levites WHO HAVE NO INHERITANCE. Christians do (Ephesians 1)." "
correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Abraham tithe to Melchizidec?
MY COMMENT: Only once...not a regular life-long practice. Abe didn't even keep the other 90%. God never commanded "tithe" to be paid on spoils of war(Numb. 31:28-30), nor on money.
Neotherm said...
>>>I would suggest that you not respond to people who engage in the infantile act of using derogatory, personal terms.<<<
Well, in one sense I agree. In another, the bible says, "Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like unto him." Which means, if a fool reviles you, don't respond by reviling him. For then, you would be as foolish as he is.
On the other hand, it also says, "Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit." Which means, provide an answer that would expose his "conceit" as folly. The key is to know how and when to answer.
It should be evident to everyone here, that the sole reason Dennis and Douglas, in particular, have descended to using the language of the gutter, is because I have uprooted all their ill-conceived opinions, and the pedestal upon which stood have collapsed. From time to time, I shall gather up the pieces of their broken pedestal and cast them to wind.
>>>Maybe they will give us a break and go away.<<<
The time will come when they will regret ever being here!
One of the most telling blemishes on the complexion of people like Mr. Mahon are statements like:
"The time will come when they will regret ever being here!"
I always marveled at the delight such people took at making absolute statements like that, steeped in some sort of definitive righteousness, rather than express a hope on their part that God's mercy would cover all.
Splinter, meet Beam, for the umpteenth time.
Tom:
I cited fourteen books, including Philemon and Hebrews, if you care to go back and do a recount. There is no 15th book attributed to Paul.
Like you, I only have so many hours in a day... It's a very simple matter to head on down to the library and check out this stuff (deutero-Pauline/Pastoral authorship) for yourself in a commentary or varsity-level NT introductory text. I'm not being original in this classification, it's the widely accepted one, and for very good reasons.
Wow, Cry baby Neotherm got Gavin to stiffel my ablilty to express my opinion regarding Tom's intelligence quota.
Guess if you cry to the authorities loud enough they will make you restrict you right to expressive speech.
Anyway, Tom and Neo in my opinion you are both nothing but self rightous cry babies who pout when you can't get your way, or are opposed or critized.
Dennis I'm with you all the way.
Herbert W. Armstrong was "NOT" an Apostle.
I challenge anyone to prove that he was.
You know whosaid.."So I believe Dixon will published my article, though he might edit it to temper the forcefulness of my prose."
You have got to be kidding.
"Temper the forcefulness of my prose"?
You have way too much belief in yourself and your ability. You ouze with pride. You come across as vein, pompous, and egotistical.
I suggest a career in used cars; not selling them, but washing them.
"But you must admit that committing idolatry using a dead person is so much better than committing idolatry with a person who is still alive."
Ewwwww, Necrodolatry! I guess when they are alive it's bio-dalatry :)
Tom said:
"The contents of the Pastoral epistles could not have been written by anyone other than Paul, as he was responsible for the care of all the churches."
Now there is a form of scholarship and critical thinking I haven't thought of!
Yep, ranks right up there with,"the Bible is true because...well, well....it says so right in the Bible!"
"It should be evident to everyone here, that the sole reason Dennis and Douglas, in particular, have descended to using the language of the gutter, is because I have uprooted all their ill-conceived opinions, and the pedestal upon which stood have collapsed. From time to time, I shall gather up the pieces of their broken pedestal and cast them to wind."
Why is this individual allowed to spue forth this kind of venum?
If I were allowed to voice an opinion, I would deduce this came from an Idiot, but I am not allowed to voice that.
There are MANY reasons why Paul is not a good candidate for the author of Hebrews.
The author nowhere in the letter claims to be an apostle or to have ecclesiastical authority over the readers, unlike Paul (see Phil 2:12; 2 Thess 3:4; Philemon 21). In fact, again unlike Paul, the author only once refers to himself in the first person (10:32).
Of the 22 times in the Bible where Paul is referred to as an "apostle", only twice is he referred to as an apostle by someone other than himself!
These two instances came from the same person. Not from Jesus, or any of the original apostles, but from Paul's close traveling companion and personal press secretary Luke. Both accounts are found in Luke's record of the Acts of the Apostles, (chapter 14:4,14).
By these statistics alone, it is evident that Paul is by far his own biggest fan... and his side kick Luke was his number two fan.
One should not miss the point that this leaves no one else anywhere in the Bible going on record recognizing his apostleship! How Dave Packesque!
A study of the number of times Paul refers to himself, (me, I, mine) in his genuine writings compared to the Author of Hebrews will show they cannot be the same person.
Add to this, the question of style, imagery and such and we end up with a not Paul.
Early Church fathers were perplexed over who the author might be. For some reason, the author did not identify himself and a knowledge of his identity was not retained in the collective memory of the early church.
From all the evidence considered, it is impossible to conclude anything very firmly about the authorship of the Letter to the Hebrews, except the general characteristics that he was not an eyewitness or an apostle. Thus, he was probably not the apostle Paul, contrary to the view of the eastern church.
Perhaps Paul, being the Apostle to the Gentiles just couldn't resist trying to tell the Jews what their OT meant too so he hid his identity. However, I don't think Paul would have been able to contain the fact that he wrote it if, in fact he did. The man was simply too taken with himself, his gospel, his revelations and his having no need for any man, Peter, James or John to help him out with the story of Jesus to have kept that little secret to himself.
Tom, I think said,
"It should be evident to everyone here, that the sole reason Dennis and Douglas, in particular, have descended to using the language of the gutter,"
What and who the hell are you talking about? Language of the gutter? I think you are getting your authors, critics and comments confused.
Tom notes: "I have uprooted all their ill-conceived opinions, and the pedestal upon which stood have collapsed. From time to time, I shall gather up the pieces of their broken pedestal and cast them to wind."
It is kinda cute, however, how you talk like the Old Testament God when he gets all Bible like. You just need to start more declarations with "Behold" for the full effect :)
'...The Church of God and Saints of Christ was founded in 1896 by African American William Saunders Crowdy. They are a Sabbatarian church community and keep the Days of Unleaven Bread with no ties to the SDAs/COG7D/WCG line of succession. There is information about this church available on the internet...'
Thanks Richard. I looked at the site. Interesting! Very little difference from (our) core COG teachings.
Tom said:
"and the pedestal upon which stood have collapsed."
That's a sin-tax thing isn't it Tom? I think it would better read,
"and the pedestal upon which they done stood, are collapsed."
If you are going to communicate, please do it more good than that!
You ouze with pride.
I'm sorry Lamont, because I know your heart is in the right place, but it should be:
You Uzi with pride.
If I were allowed to voice an opinion, I would deduce this came from an Idiot
Lamont, we really respect you for following the rules here! Thank you! But you do know that options are available to you: The word Imbecile has not been explicitly forbidden. Also, the word "fool" is still open.
However, to insure that you not run afoul of the POWERS THAT BE, you may just consider saying "a pompous beast of burden". This has the advantage of subtly inferring a relationship with Balaam.
Another approach is more direct: You could simply say, "I hope when you return home to the kennel, your mother bites you".
The time will come when they will regret ever being here!
OK, OK: 2012 or April 19?
Dennis, if you are driven off the forum, be sure to insist on a first cabin limo, the type of which Herbert Armstrong used with his armed guards with real guns, coming to the Feast. Insist that no expense be spared! After all, you are worth it!
Now mind you, Gavin is not paying. You-know-who is paying. So live a little! Make sure you get to the stock of champagne and caviar [if that's your thing].
And have a pleasant ride.
Hope to see you soon!
Sometimes, just sometimes [well, with the church of gods, it's pretty much all the time], people become so comfortable with what is so objectively nutty that they don't recognize the drivel for what it is and need an outside source to act as a mirror to reflect how bad the insanity has become. The following true story is just one example:
In 1961, a man who later became a minister to a Church of God -- not Armstrongist, but still keeping the Feasts -- and who also later became not just a minister, but one who established Sabbath keeping churches all over the United States during his lifetime, came in contact with the Radio Church of God.
He finally was allowed to come to services. After services he was asked what he thought of Herbert Armstrong.
His response was, "you should ask me what I think of Jesus Christ".
Whereupon, two deacons physically picked him up and threw him out of church!
It should be noted that just as with Pavlov's dogs, psychopaths once conditioned to someone pressing their hot buttons will react even when no one is pushing them any longer.
Concerning armed guards with real guns guarding Herbert Armstrong at the Feast of Tabernacles, does anyone know if any of the current crop of end time Apostles also having armed guards [in faith, mind you] with real guns guarding them? {We can think of at least a couple who actually might consider it!}
Regarding William Saunders Crowdy:
We know that HWA plagiarized, virtually never giving credit to his sources, and instead attributing them to God. We also know that HWA did not seem to possess a basic sense of respect for gentiles of the black persuasion.
Wouldn't it be amazing if it could be verified that HWA knew of Crowdy's work, and that the reality was that the WCG had been spawned by African Americans?
Concerning a bit more on Carl O'beirn:
He established the Church of God (Carl O'beirn) Cleveland. This, of course, is reminiscent of the episode of Barney Miller where Barney Miller asked a man in his jail who claimed to be the Devil where Hell was, and the man responded, "Cleveland".
Besides the nutty idea about palm fronds for temporary booths at the Feast, he also established his own, yet another, Holyday Calendar, much at odds with even the observations of Dr. Hoeh at the time.
Moreover, the Carl man insisted that all Old Testament Christians needed to keep the New Moon as the Sabbath / Holyday, based primarily upon the reading of I Samuel 20. This has also been the basis of several other obscure church of gods for their insistence that everyone needed to keep it in order to get into the Kingdom of God.
However, it is interesting that some have commented that this particular celebration was The Feast of Trumpets. If that is the case, and those proponents of keeping the New Moons knew it, it could be surmised that such may be suspect as being less than honest.
One wonders at their cognitive dissonance with Revelation 22:15 where the New Moon isn't mentioned although it would certainly be a prime place to put such a requirement.
Wouldn't it be amazing if it could be verified that HWA knew of Crowdy's work
It would have been enough for Herbert Armstrong to know about G.G. Rupert's work, although it would be great for the hypocrisy meter to also have Crowdy's work at the heart of Herbert Armstrong's keeping the Feasts.
However, the truth is that some of the Churches of God of that era -- but not the Church of God, Seventh Day -- did keep the Feasts and Herbert Armstrong knew about them and may have even kept a Feast or two with them.
In any event, the claim that Herbert Armstrong -- as he said -- learned about the Feasts directly from Jesus Christ is certainly a blatant lie.
(With much thanks to skeptic).......
The "Imbecile" said:
"The time will come when they will regret ever being here!"
I have always had my doubts about the sanity of this puffed up bag of wind, but it now looks like he is issuing veiled threats.
I am beginning to think his psychosis is much deeper and profound than I had imagined.
It final: Certified Nut Case
Here is more on William Saunders Crowdy. The similarities between William Crowdy and Herbert Armstrong are re-markable - very interesting. Perhaps there is something to Tired Skeptic's suggestion.
Remember Loma's dream when the Armstrong's lived in Chicago in the early 1900s - about the same time William Crowdy was preaching in Chicago. I pulled this off the internet:
Adapted from Sabbath Roots: The African Connection
by Charles E. Bradford
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea (Isaiah 11:11 KJV).
The ministry of William Saunders Crowdy has been strangely neglected by church historians. This remarkable man was born a slave in 1847 in the state of Maryland and died in the year 1906. After going through a series of profound spiritual experiences, including receiving visions and dreams similar to the experiences of the great African prophets, Crowdy founded the Church of God and Saints of Christ in Lawrence, Kansas, in 1896.
On one occasion Crowdy was clearing a field for planting when he fell into a deep sleep. He dreamed he was in large room and saw a number of tables descending. They were of various sizes, but were all covered with filth, as in Isaiah’s vision (see Isa. 28:8). He interpreted this to represent the spiritual condition of the various denominations.
Then he saw another table descending that was completely clean. This table was labeled “Church of God and Saints of Christ.” The table grew to such proportions that the other tables were displaced. He took this to be a representation of the true church and decided that he was God’s agent to establish it.
During the same vision Crowdy was given a set of keys, rules and guidelines for the church, later to be known as the “Seven Keys.” The dream ended after a Bible was placed in his hands and he was commanded to eat it. He did and then awakened. This spectacular dream, Crowdy believed, prepared him for his ministry. He was totally committed from that day on to the spread of the message of Jesus the Messiah to the whole world, but particularly to his brethren according to the flesh.
By the time of his death the Church of God and Saints of Christ was established in the United States of America, the island of Jamaica, and South Africa. There were more than 200 churches and 37,000 members in the United States alone.
A man of great determination and stamina, Crowdy’s preaching mission took him to many parts of the United States. Large crowds of Blacks and Whites flocked to hear the ABlack Elijah.@ Convinced that he was God’s agent and that his church had a worldwide mission, Crowdy preached with power and baptized many converts.
Crowdy was arrested 23 times for preaching. Two Philadelphia pastors petitioned the mayor to order Crowdy out of town because he was preaching that Saturday was the Sabbath. When the mayor came to hear Crowdy preach, he was impressed with his sincerity and said the city needed more of his kind.
Early in his ministry Crowdy observed that the traditional church was confused about its relationship to Judaism. There was a continuity, in Crowdy’s thinking, between Judaism and Christianity. His movement sought to restore the authentic Hebrew roots of Christianity.
All African-American preachers have emphasized the Exodus and the emancipation of the Hebrews as the major salvation paradigm in the Old Testament and, indeed, in all of salvation history. But Crowdy is the first African-American to preach that the seventh-day Sabbath is particularly meaningful to Black people around the world. He saw his role as reaching out to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, Black people, who are the true Israelites.
Crowdy preached the gospel of self-help and strength to overcome against odds. At the center of his message is a gospel that produces visible results in the uplifting and empowerment of people. One of the seven or eight departments of the church was the “M & W. D. A,” which Aservices the Tabernacle by fostering literary programs and finances for cultural development.
This visionary preacher forged a connection between Africans in the United States and Africans on the continent through his adherence to the ancient Bible Sabbath. This immediately identified him with African thinking and differentiated his movement from the European mission in Africa which was so committed to Sunday worship.
For Further Study
Elly M. Wynia, The Church of God and the Saints of Christ: The Rise of the Black Jews (New York: Garland Publishing Co., 1990)
Albert J. Raboteau, Canaan Land: A Religious History of African Americans (New York: Oxford University Press, 2001), 86-90.
END OF EXCERPT.
Richard
A correction - Herbert Armstrong would have been a contemporary of Crowdy's son who continued "the work" after his father died in 1906. Herbert and Loma were in Chicago in the mid 1920s I believe. Nothwithstanding, HWA could have come into contact with Crowdy's work.
Richard
Did Crowdy have a son by the name Garner Ted?
Anonymous said...
"No minister is a LEVITE. Christians are only a priesthood of Melchizidec who have no LEVITES. The LAW demands tithes to be given only to Levites WHO HAVE NO INHERITANCE. Christians do (Ephesians 1)." "
"correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Abraham tithe to Melchizidec?"
Yes, you are right. There are a number of other references to tithing in scripture. What is God saying to you? Are we to tithe or not tithe? I go with the former...to tithe.
Tom M---n wrote, "If you post a photo of your humble self, I will post one of me. But you, no doubt, are terrified of what I might deduce from your humble deportment!
MY COMMENT - Oh yes, I am just terrified! Why do the words "idiot" and "moron" come to my mind when I think of Tom Mahon?
Richard
Tom M---n wrote, "It should be evident to everyone here, that the sole reason Dennis and Douglas, in particular, have descended to using the language of the gutter, is because I have uprooted all their ill-conceived opinions, and the pedestal upon which stood have collapsed. From time to time, I shall gather up the pieces of their broken pedestal and cast them to wind".
MY COMMENT - Oh, I get it now Tom. Your a goof ball comedian, and your yanking our chains! I guess we shouldn't take Tom seriously here on the AW website.
Reminds me of the Saturday Night Live Point Counterpoint routine with Dan Akroyd and Jane Curtin. To quote Dan Akroyd, "Tom, you ignorant slut".
Richard
it now looks like he is issuing veiled threats
I suspect that it is more like that some time some day, he expects that God will judge those of us who point out the truth that Herbert Armstrong was a false prophet. At that time, we will all regret ever being anything but biodolatry and later, necrolatry, because Herbert Armstrong will be a God as God is God and we will have to worship at his feet. Maybe even wash them.
But ever conservative and cautious, I am keeping my FBI contact information handy, just in case. Which reminds me, it's about time to check on the other case files I've opened with the FBI.
Just a precaution, mind you. I have faith in Divine Protection -- perhaps not dissimilar to Herbert Armstrong's faith which dictated that he keep a cadre of armed bodyguards with real guns [and, of course, I'm somewhat jealous, since I can't afford such prodigal expenditures].
Has anybody seen a picture of Tom show up on the internet?
I dont know if its the same one but if he is from finland its a possibility.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/0312205260/ref=dp_image_text_0/105-0155096-3173261?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books
Richard and all:
I do not believe that HWA had any contact with Crowdy. The Black oriented Church of God and Saints in Christ is a very interesting group, and get this, they believe that THEY are the lost 10 tribes too! (LOL!)
There is another primarily black group that is similar to the WCG called the "House of God" established by a R.A. Johnson in 1918. Again I doubt any connections to Armstrong.
A group called the "True Jesus Church" was founded in China in 1917, that claims about 1.5 million adherents around the world, including the USA, is also remarkably similar to Armstrongism.
The CoG 7th day was the primary source of 95% of HWAs doctrinal ideas. Even at HWAs first contact there were scattered folks in the COG7th Day movement who were keeping the Holy Days (John Kiez for instance) and also other ideas.
GG Ruppert can be argued to be a major influence on HWAs thinking. Although he died in 1922, it has been stated that many of his magazines, "Remnant of Israel" were in possesion of HWA, even up to the time of his death in 1986.
MORE: http://www.giveshare.org/churchhistory/rcogvscog7.html
Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA
The other day I was out during my lunch hour driving to a restaurant to get some food. I had the radio on and did a bit of channel surfing when the station I was listening to went to its five minute block of commercial messages.
I came across a distictively coggish religious program, but could not recognize the person speaking. Since it was near the bottom of the hour, I kept on listening to find out who this guy was. Turns out to be a Michael J. Rood, who calls his program A Rood Awakening (I kid you not). He has a website at:
http://www.michaelroodministries.com/index.htm
This guy has something for everyone. Focuses on the Jewish roots of the church. Dresses like Elijah (or Melchizedek). Teaches that the modern calendar, and even the Jewish calendar is all screwed up. Didn't look at that too close, but combines the agricultural and astronomical features of life of earth and heavens to get a "correct" calendar. (Check this out Dennis - his critics claim it has astrological aspects).
Prophecy is big with him, and you can read about "The Jonah Code" - probably not very similar to The DaVinci Code, but I could be wrong.
This guy is on TV too, so check out the TV listings for the program in your area! For those interested, you can start your Torah training right from the web page.
The more things change...
KMS
"Rood Awakening"........
Just what the world needs...... another Nut.
tired skeptic said:
[The Egyptian Book of the Dead] "Oh, I don't know. It looks more like a collection of scripts for Stargate SG-1."
*rim shot*
Re: Michael Rood: He is just CoGish enough to make Pam Dewey's Field Guide.
Has Tom learned to count higher than 10 yet?
The Count, Cookie Monster, and Screaming-for-Mercy-in-Hellmo would like to know.
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