Hot off the press comes news that Oklahoma philanthropist and Prophet Gerry Flurry has picked up some expensive baubles for his Ambassador Auditorium clone.
Pastor General Gerald Flurry has approved the interior lighting and semi-precious stone finishes that will adorn the grand lobby of Armstrong Auditorium. Three diamond-shaped crystal chandeliers and coordinating wall sconces were approved, in addition to a caramel-color onyx that will decorate three feature walls in the grand lobby...
The caramel color was chosen to complement the interior finishes and overall color scheme of the building. After viewing several samples that ranged from light cream to dark caramel, Mr. Flurry approved the darker color, and it was agreed that the buyer in Iran should choose the onyx that matched this color during extraction at the quarry.
Nice to know that the Iranian economy is getting a boost from the tithe-payers of the PCG.
Full PR release here.
60 comments:
Hmmm, using coordinates given in Wiki, Tehran is about 2 minutes of latitude North of Edmond. If the PCG still hold that Iran is King of the South, it looks like Gerry's not King of the North. And besides, he'll be the one doing the pushing, to get that onyx on time.
Rather disheartening to see how history repeats, isn't it?
All those "the end is near" predictions and yet pouring tons of money into long range building projects.
So much for laying up treasure in heaven.
This is one of those topics that just defies explanation. I am speechless. I have always thought that Flurry was a whacko. He has never done anything to disprove that conclusion. (and still hasn't)
Poor old Six Pack cannot ever do any thing original. Herb had onyx in his monument to himself, so Six Pack has to have it too. However there is a difference in the reasoning between Herb and Six Pack when it comes to Iranian onyx. Herb's concert hall only had 9 panels of Iranian onyx because they ran out of the other rose onyx. The Iranian onyx is quirt obvious in it's difference from the rose onyx. It looks cheap.
Six Pack had to buy the old worn out Steinway and the two candelabra to make his monument to himself as close as to Herb's version as possible.
The other difference between Herb's Hall and Six Pack's is that Herb's hall was a Masonic cube. The actual building is a black cube facing East. One of the construction men came back to tour the building several years alter and told the House Staff that there was all kinds of Masonic symbolism in the building.
Six Pack's hall looks like someone dropped something on his hall and squashed it. The one thing both Herb and Six Pack have in common was that they both were/are alcoholics. Alcohol will certainly flow freely in Six Pack's hall as it did in Herb's at all the receptions after the concerts. Will Six Pack be able to afford and keep pouring Dom Pérignon as Herb did? Just bilk your gullible members for more tithe money and offerings. Only the best for the 'apostle'!
Ah, it's tough to be That Profit. I guess the one true prayer rock and grand piano weren't enough.
This would then officially make Mr. Flurry an "Onyx-moron"
I don't know what to think of the people that wish to see their resources spent in a way that mimicks the last time they didn't learn this lesson.
Somebody should write a book on the original WCG, with an emphasis on all the amazing self-delusions rampant among it's subsequent splinter group leaders. It would have all the makings of a bizarre soap opera, and then some!
The United States has maintained sanctions on Iran for the last 30 years, and recently toughened them. I'm curious how Gerald Flurry is able to bypass these rules and regulations... could it be he has never obtained permission from the State Department to conduct commerce with Iran? This would be an interesting question to answer....
Another anon said -
Somebody should write a book...
Plenty of revealling books have been written, but what is missing is a blockbuster film, bigger than Ben KScribe.
While Elmer Gantry showed a few similarities, we need something more like Citizen Kane.
As Mickey pointed out, the end is near, but there is always time for construction on a grand scale.
I remember when challenged on this, back in the 70s, and I had to come up with reasons to explain why the auditorium was being built at the time we'd been told the Tribulation was to start. I don't remember getting any tips from the ministry on spinning that bit of apologetics.
And the families that are broken! My mother has not spoken to us in over 2-1/2 years because of his "no contact rule." She is nearly blind because he made her get rid of her glaucoma drops or not be able to take the passover, so the nerve in her eye inflamed and died. The other is following right behind. It all makes me sick.
Gerry's appellation needs to be upgraded to "666 Pack".
Gerry is adding some light to the spiritual darkness around him.But all the way from Iran. I ask you.
And great will be the spirituous celebration.
Yankee sin-thetics are obviously not acceptable.I imagine they will be transported by logistics firm
"EU-FREIGHTS".
It occurs to one that the King of Assyria,Jareb, will use TIGRIS tanks in his forthcoming champagne,oops, campaign.
Jorgheinz
Where have all the profits gone..long time ago!
Where have all the profits gone..long time passing(the basket)!
Where have all the profits gone, gone to Flurry and his head.
When will they ever learn?! When will they ev...er learn.
Maybe we should ask for an anointing cloth to heal his ills!!!!!! He's actually saving for the end time when all his sheep are in Petra or wherever they should go and all those tithes are't coming in he needs that stuff for e-bay!!!!!!!!
And the families that are broken! My mother has not spoken to us in over 2-1/2 years because of his "no contact rule." She is nearly blind because he made her get rid of her glaucoma drops or not be able to take the passover, so the nerve in her eye inflamed and died. The other is following right behind. It all makes me sick.
I wish I could help, but I cannot deal with the symptoms of Gerald's problem, for I am not a psychiatrist. Neither can I deal with the fundamental cause of Gerald's problem, for I am not an exorcist.
People in the PCG imagine that Gerald is something great just because he said he was. Big mistake to make about the little fibber. He was neither a prophet nor the son of a prophet, just a drunk and the son of a drunk. Subscribing to Stratfor and guessing wrong will never make him a true prophet, just a false one.
J.C. warned that there would be guys like this, but most have not heeded the warning.
People in the PCG have been brainwashed into believing that all they have to do is just listen to Gerald and nobody else. This way is, no doubt, very attractive to the mentally lazy and the irresponsible. Be sure, though, that this horrible mistake will come back to haunt them.
Indeed, someone should ask Mr. Flurry how he can justify doing business with the "King of the South." (Which is not to the South of Jerusalem, but east -- so I disagree with his claim that Iran is King of the South.)
How can he justify doing business with the country that supposedly runs Lebanon, and has a puppet government in part of the Palestinian Authority?
But of course, if someone in Edmund asked him that, Mr. Flurry would probably disfellowship that person on the spot.
Remember, Mr. Flurry likes to note the name Edmund means "protector of wealth." Hmmm -- I wonder whose?
I Thess. 5:21
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
if people did that PCG would not exist in it's present form, if at all.
There just has to be a nagging little feeling in the pit of the stomachs of PCG members that something is not quite right. But, typically, a member would assume that this feeling came from Satan, when it is in reality a survival instinct.
Since Flurry and others are claiming to be acting on behalf of Jesus, I believe it is only fair to ask WWJD? Jesus would heal a person's eyes, so they no longer needed the glaucoma drops. He most certainly would not forbid them from taking Passover unless they threw away the drops, and then watch them go blind! Jesus would also not be so consumed with physical wealth that He began building college campusses and expensive buildings. The early Jerusalem Christians lived communally, pooling their wealth so that they had basic sustenance while spreading the gospel that Jesus saves, and the joy of the coming Kingdom.
Jesus would be urging people to help their neighbors in Africa, by sending food, and providing Christian education there. He would not be exploiting the starving African peoples as a photo op, to publish their pictures in a glossy magazine dedicated to tithe farming.
Flurry's "god" bears a curious resemblance to Satan. Bad fruit! Rotten, poisonous, toxic fruit! Run, PCG members! Hide! You know not what you are doing.
BB
PG10 said...
The other difference between Herb's Hall and Six Pack's is that Herb's hall was a Masonic cube. The actual building is a black cube facing East. One of the construction men came back to tour the building several years alter and told the House Staff that there was all kinds of Masonic symbolism in the building.
I don't think it was so much a black cube as it was a golden mean parallelapiped. The golden mean dates way back to the Greeks and before, and shows itself in the fibannaci sequence and stock market fluctuations. Its also considered an "ideal form" in architecture. The Parthenon was an example of that shape.
But there's seems to be evidence to support Masonic influence inside the WCG, Rader was rumored to have been one (32nd degree), and I suspect HWA might have been one but I have never heard if he was. He was a Rotarian and often addressed the Rotary club - I don't know of any ties between Rotary and the Masons. Masonic symbolism shows up in the Mormon religion too.
Bamboo - I think we've all been in one too many Masonic Halls in our WCG days.
I don't remember reading about any ties between HWA and the Masons, and he probably wasn't a Stonecutter. (The Simpsons parody of the secret societies)
In one GTA program (in the WCG days) GTA showed the back of a dollar bill, and tried to explain the Masonic symbolism as Biblical.
Flurry is certainly following in HWAs footsteps- focusing his time and resources on pet building projects all on the backs of his tithe slaves.
It's odd that all we see from these splinter groups is history repeating itself (i.e. WCG of the 1960s-70s). It's like watching a movie remake. New sets, new characters, same plot. We all know how it ends.
Amen to Byker Bob's last comment.
PCG members who see this news release (and I personally wonder if it actually will be read at services) should meditate long and hard about what he's doing. Even better, THINK -- think as Jesus would.
Years ago there was a push to discredit Masonry. Jack Elliot wrote articles about it. It was talked about in sermons. We had always heard in Pasadena that there were ministers and evangelists who were Masons. No one would ever say who they were though.
In Armstrongism it always seemed to be that the more it spoke out against something the more guilty the ministry was in doing it.
I don't know much about Masonic symbolism, nor whether the guys comments were accurate. Be he did go into detail about how things were counted in the building, the position of certain rooms. He was particularly interested in commenting about a room that was up in the catwalks the north side of the building. He said that it had significance in it's placement. I do know that later on it was a favorite hiding place for the alcohol of a certain stage manager who was a known alcoholic. Plus other extra curricular activity went on up there too.
I like magnificent buildings. (Not that Gerald's efforts are all that great.) However, no amount of building can ever turn a satanic cult like the PCG, that was built on lies, into the true church.
Jesus warned that many false prophets would come and said that you would know them by their fruits. And where can you find as many fruits and nuts today as in the PCG and some of the other splinter groups?
It is not a case of good people supporting all the lies and nonsense in the PCG for some unfathomable reason. Rather, most of the PCG members are not really good people at all. In fact, too many of them are very bad characters. That is, they are ignorant, selfish, liars, sex perverts, etc. They do not obey God. They think that they can ignore God and yet get saved just by following Gerald. That is why they are going to have problems.
Unlike the biblical Bereans, PCG members delight in ignorance. Gerald has forbidden them to do anything else. After investing (actually wasting) so much time and money, they are afraid that they will get kicked out of the PCG if they offend Gerald or any of his petty tyrants. They do not dare to think at all, but must unthinkingly do whatever they are told, including cutting off all communication with family members (who were WCG members) who could tell them anything.
Nazi concentration camp prisoners were forced to work as slaves in the German factories, helping the enemy, to try to prolong their miserable lives a few more months.
In similar fashion, the PCG prisoners in this spiritual war think they must do whatever they are told, helping the enemy, to try to prolong their miserable existence within the PCG a little longer.
The PCG members continue to throw good time and money after bad, but it won't help. Gerald will continue to come up with more evil for them to endure, until they are either forced out or forced into utter depravity and insanity.
Trying to reason with terrorists whose main goal in life is to try to destroy you does not work well. That is why PCG members will never have any success trying to reason with Gerald/Satan.
I remember when Gerald first came up with the idea of stealing the identity of "That Prophet" from Jesus to try to rustle His sheep. Gerald first told the members that the new revelation and new truth that had been revealed to him was so great that Satan was going to be very angry about it and that Gerald was going to be personally attacked for it by other people.
The intent was to make PCG members feel sorry for poor little Gerald.
The PCG members should have asked Gerald what he was doing, and why he criticized other groups for making relatively minor changes while he himself pulled off such a colossal whopper.
Anonymous said...
Bamboo - I think we've all been in one too many Masonic Halls in our WCG days.
Boy isn't that the truth?
The very first WCG service I attended at age 7 in Phoenix was at an Odd Fellows Hall.
They've got to be related to the Masons, as they have the same symbolism everywhere and same layout of the hall. I remember being creeped out by the big eyeball under the three link chain of the odd fellows logo when we walked into that hall for the first time. I really wondered if my dad had lost it. My dad was a Twilight Zone fan and that eyeball looked like something Rod Sterling had on his show.
Vernon Hargrove was the pastor, he was from Mississippi and kept the blacks segregated to one section of the Hall, and they ate pot luck dinners by themselves. That always looked so lonely.
Arizona wasn't known for segregation, my first contact with anything segregated by race was within the WCG (then called the Radio Church of God).
My last full time attendance at WCG was in 1996 at Fairfield California at a rented Masonic Hall. Again that very same layout and the big "G" at the head of the hall.
But at least segregation was gone.
"But, typically, a member would assume that this feeling came from Satan, when it is in reality a survival instinct."
If I had a nickel for every one of those I ignored when I was in.......
Construction guy sounds like another oddball conspiracy theorist. I'm inclined to agree with the other posters, definitely no Masonic connections with the church, at least not with headquarters, and I can't see any of the Canadian ministry having ever been involved --- we weren't even allowed to rent Masonic halls, back in the day. (Could be that's because they call them "temples" north of the border though.)
Well, that, and while the ministers of misery up here were miserable, misanthropic SOBs, they (for the most part) otherwise lacked the cold animal cunning a successful freemason absolutely requires, to get ahead in the truly cut-throat world of the brotherhood of the all-seeing-eye.
(Wouldn't put it past Junior and Weazell to be members of the funny handshake club though.)
I know a little bit about the Masonic order, from the inside, actually. I think I can say with some authority that they are in a parallel universe, as far as the church is concerned.
(My "inside info"? Don't even ask; you think my tales from being a child of the church are bad, I really could curl your ears with some of the corruption, and pure, unadulterated out-and-out evil with a capital EEEEEEEEEEEEEEE I witnessed during those unfortunate years.)
Freemasons, like Armstrongists, worship the Demiurge. That's the only thing the two groups have in common, however.
And don't even try to float the theory about Rader having been one: If you think we were anti-Semitic with our BI bunkum, masons take it several steps further again. They're about as anti-Semitic, and generally bigoted to all non-rich, non-white non-elite class males, as it is humanly possible to be. Which is more than you would think, for an organization that claims they "accept anyone". (They don't, BTW, in exactly the same manner that the church didn't.)
Purple Hymnal, I am guessing that you and I were never in the same church. I am a member of the Worldwide Church of God. I don't know what group of people you talk about?
You have got me all WRONG! Having fun with Gerald
None of this is TRUE!
I remember Jack Elliott's article about the Masons. I know that as a group, the Worldwide Church of Satan was always looking for pagan symbols (such as the fleur d'elis). Why when the hippie rebellion was taking place and paisley was popular, they even told us that the patterns on paisley were a representation of spermatazoa!
So, if any of the symbols of masonry somehow got incorporated into the misnamed "House for God", I would have to assume that they were so subtle that they were sneaked past senior management of the WCS. Kind of like prisoners of war during Korea flipping the bird in group pictures, and telling their inquisitive captors that this was a symbol of brotherhood and friendship.
Who knows? The big travesty is that so many people lived in poverty to contribute to this end time edifice which had nothing to do with any kind of gospel message, and everything to do with HWA's humongous ego and narcissism.
It must be nice for the Maranatha people to be able to enjoy our collective folly. Hope something similarly nice ultimately happens with Flurry's copycat project.
BB
That "prophet" said...
You have got me all WRONG! Having fun with Gerald
(link deleted)
Is it just me or does everyone find such letters to Flurry every bit as demented as the F-meister himself?
An outsider to the lingo wouldn't have a clue what they're ranting about!
Laurence Peter (Peter Principle) referred to this desire to immortalize oneself through architecture as the ediface complex.
His favorite example seemed to be the Great Pyramid, for its size, and as a symbol of the hierarchical organization structure which exemplified his Principle.
Larry, Larry, Larry,
You're right, we were never in the same church. Because you're still in, and I managed to find my way out.
Nice to see Junior and Weazell and Ron Kelly (the snake) are still encouraging whitewashing thought reform, though. Can't wait for your next response, telling me to "get over it".
He should have purchased the Pasadena parcel that that other sect bought. This was during the housing bubble when Greenspan lowered interest rates to almost zero and banks & mortgage Co's were lending huge amounts to anybody & everybody - even illegal immigrants and people without jobs. The PCG could have easily obtained financing. I would have liked it to go to one of the XCG's.
"... Canadian ministry ... we weren't even allowed to rent Masonic halls, back in the day."
At least one church did - Wetaskiwin, Alberta for many years.
Forget Flurry and watch the dvds of the Prophecy Club (www.prophecyclub.com). Read Pat Robertson's book, New World Order.
We get the same rubbish from these COGs with the exception of Fred Coulter who teaches about these shady organisations running things behind the scenes.
I am tired of reading how these wonderful leaders in the US are fighting terrorism--even Ron Dart's support of Bush was enough for me--I have never listened to him again! When we all know terrorism is as bogus as the Easter bunny, just a ploy, to bring in the "beast system". Even the Seventh Day Adventists believe the US is a Rising Beast of Revelation! They are more on the mark than the Flurry!
"Flurry is certainly following in HWAs footsteps- focusing his time and resources on pet building projects all on the backs of his tithe slaves."
Pharaoh Flurry - Let the people go!
You have got to be kidding!Fred Coulter? Did you really listen to him? Do you know just what HE teaches?
« Robert the Brit said...
I am tired of reading how these wonderful leaders in the US are fighting terrorism--even Ron Dart's support of Bush was enough for me--I have never listened to him again! »
I've wondered why it is that churches with a long history of being against abortion are so quick to demand the death penalty of criminals?
How can religions with such a death wish for America (as in the "end-times" apocalypse) can be so rabidly Republican in their political beliefs. Especialy when they don't even vote or participate in the political process.
Okay.....classic Armstrongism is really just the Old Testament in Greek drag clothing....I suppose its fair for them to be eye-for-an-eye kind of folks. But how do churches who profess grace and the New Covenant and God's redemption of humans support the death penalty for crimes?
HWA was careful to buddy up to the FBI and search out potential communists sympathizers for them in the 1950s. Tkach made sure that the Church was Reagan friendly.
The nearest I can theorize, its kind of like the mafia helping out the US Gov't in its invasion of Italy in World War II, they knew Mussolini was bad for their business.
Are Democrats perceived as being bad for the religion business? Or just generally Satanic for being liberal?
""... Canadian ministry ... we weren't even allowed to rent Masonic halls, back in the day."
------
"At least one church did - Wetaskiwin, Alberta for many years."
Seriously? From the way I heard some of the lay-ministry tell it, freemasons were second in line only to le poopoo for being horrific anti-christ evil.
Just goes to show you how different the church could be, from one congregation to the next.
Robert said...
Forget Flurry and watch the dvds of the Prophecy Club (www.prophecyclub.com). Read Pat Robertson's book, New World Order.
NO, NO, NO ! ! !
Gerald Flurry is no prophet. He is an identity thief.
Robert Ardis is no prophet. He thinks the PCG is a true church.
Pat Robertson is no prophet. He is a Sunday-keeping ignoramus.
They are ALL unprofitable. The correct answer is, "None of the above."
Robert said, "Forget Flurry and watch the dvds of the Prophecy Club (www.prophecyclub.com)"
MY COMMENT - Well, the dumb sheep keep getting dumber.
Here is an excerpt from the "Prophecy Club" (Note: Prophecy Club = Income for the producers of the dvds from the dumb sheep, Robert):
Leslie Johnson is a licensed, ordained Prophet and has given over 5,000 personal prophecies. She has pinpoint accuracy in her prophetic words, dreams, and visions. She is the author of four books: The Perfect Touch, The Crown of Glory, Help Me I’m All Tied Up, More Than A Ruby and speaker on four Prophecy Club DVDs. Leslie has been given many specific dreams, visions, night-visions, and spiritual experiences;"
End of Excerpt
Yeah, right. And pigs fly!
Robert, how do you become a licensed prophet? Who issued the license and where is the authenticity of the 5,000 personal prophecies? Where is the proof?
These idiots that keep merchandising end time prophecies to the dumb sheep never cease to amaze me. Of course, you have to give them some credit as they probably have better homes and lifestyles than I will ever have working for a living.
If I didn't learn anything from Herbert Armstrong, it was "lie to the masses, dine with the classes". The Roberts of the world will send the false profits money.
Richard
Robert,
I think you have spent far too much time reading information from conspiracy groups. I highly recommend getting a girlfriend and spending time with real people as recovery therapy.
Purple hymnal:
I am not a Canuck but over the years I was in the WCG we met in Masonic lodges, hotels, a run down banquet hall, catholic schools, a fire hall, and a Knights of Columbus building.
I always found it odd that we could meet in buildings owned and operated by Masons and Catholics...especially since we were taught that they were "Of the Devil".
Robert said...
Forget Flurry and watch the dvds of the Prophecy Club (www.prophecyclub.com). Read Pat Robertson's book, New World Order.
Shame on you, Robert, for telling such fibs. Stop trying to lead former WCG members into complete nonsense and confusion and evil!
The Sunday-keeping televangelists are certainly NOT the people to go to for knowledge of prophecy, or anything else related to the Bible.
Sunday-keepers have a long history of coming up with wrong dates for the end of the world.
In case some at this blog did not know it, William Miller of 1844 infamy never became either a Sabbath-keeper or a Seventh Day Adventist. William Miller (1782-1849) was a self-taught, Sunday-keeping, Baptist preacher. In 1833 his local Baptist church voted him a license to preach. It seems he was never formally ordained.
When the SDA church was formed around 1860, some of the SDA founders who had listened to William Miller's preaching years earlier could not shake his wrong dates out of their heads. To their everlasting shame, they hung on to one of the wrong dates, claiming that something different--something invisible--had happened on it.
Anonymous 12:09, Sunday keeping has nothing to do with the veracity of prophecy, or falseness thereof. We of all people, unless there is something seriously wrong with our minds, already know of the false prophets who happen to prefer the Israelite sabbath, but there are also false prophets who instead commemorate the resurrection each week. So, if you are looking to the sabbath to authenticate or invalidate a group's prophecies, you are using very misguided criteria.
On TBN there are Messianic Jews who are into prophecy big-time, and have their Hebraic interpretations, and there are evangelicals who dwell on prophecy. Both groups appear to be using prophecy just as HWA did, as a hook to "spike" their ministries, and to scare people into donations. Empires are being built, just as we have witnessed in ACOGdom. All of those who do indulge in prophecy want you to think they have Revelation down pat, and they tend to exploit the news events of our times to support their pet theories. If the gospel was indeed intended to be the preaching of the end times, rather than the fact that Jesus came to restore or save mankind, these TBN people as a diverse but united community are absolutely dwarfing the efforts of Old School WCG, or the various splinters. From the results, it would appear that God has raised up the stones!
I would say that the ACOGs need to get united, and really get on the ball, because their message is either ridiculous (Weinland and Flurry), inaudible, or totally invisible. Yes, the time of the end is being preached BIGTIME, but because of the continued splintering due to a lack of the unity which one might expect would normally be provided by the Holy Spirit, the ACOGs have become marginalized into a state of irrelevancy in this preaching effort. You might say they've been left behind!
BB
Byker Bob said...
Anonymous 12:09, Sunday keeping has nothing to do with the veracity of prophecy, or falseness thereof. We of all people, unless there is something seriously wrong with our minds, already know of the false prophets who happen to prefer the Israelite sabbath, but there are also false prophets who instead commemorate the resurrection each week. So, if you are looking to the sabbath to authenticate or invalidate a group's prophecies, you are using very misguided criteria.
Byker Bub,
The point is that the Sunday-keeping televangelists don't obey God's Sabbath commandment, so don't expect God to reveal any great prophecy to any of them. They do not submit to God, and God does not reveal to them. Their Sunday keeping--and Sabbath breaking--disqualifies them as a credible source. You can, and certainly should, just ignore all the blather from Sunday-keeping prophets. They are not only unprofitable but downright costly to their suckers/sinners.
Of course, some false prophets do know about the biblical Sabbath as a result of being in a church that taught about it. For example: Gerald Flurry, Ronald Weinland, David Koresh, etc. So, additional filters are needed to screen out this scum.
But then, don't bikers come up with false prophecies too?
He he he ;-)
I trust the people whose faith, love, and spirituality has grown to the point where they realize that Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant, including all of the holydays and the sabbath. The Old Covenant is over. That's why God has never revealed the secrets of prophecy to those still mired in it. It's why God allows the legalists to be deceived by ridiculous theories such as British Israelism. It is why HWA and his imitators have been 100% inaccurate in all of their prophecies, and will continue to be so long as they are blinded.
Every day is sabbath rest for the Christian with a circumcised heart. God has blessed the USA beyond measure. We are a nation founded on the principles which came out of the Protestant Reformation. As Christians, we are also a beneficiary of the promises to Abraham's seed, through Jesus Christ, a descendant.
You've got to ask yourself, if God is working through the ACOGs, why is their message totally invisible, except for insomniacs who might be watching infomercials at 3:00 AM? I think ACOG people assume they are safe because Mick Jagger and Keith Richards have not supplanted them in preaching the gospel. But, just because the Stones haven't been raised up to preach the Kingdom doesn't mean that God isn't using figurative stones, ie, other non ACOG churches to do so.
Seems like some folks need to get a clue here. They need to ask God where the Holy Spirit is actually working, and then place their support there, rather than reflexively attempting to find the true ACOG.
BB
"You can, and certainly should, just ignore all the blather from Sunday-keeping prophets."
And the Saturday-keeping prophets too, while you're at it.
Byker Bob said...
[All the usual tripe that is commonly heard and carelessly repeated these days.]
I trust the people whose faith, love, and spirituality has grown to the point where they realize that Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant, including all of the holydays and the sabbath.
It's why God allows the legalists to be deceived by ridiculous theories such as British Israelism.
Every day is sabbath rest for the Christian with a circumcised heart.
They need to ask God where the Holy Spirit is actually working, and then place their support there, rather than reflexively attempting to find the true ACOG.
Bicycle Bob,
Whereas by now you ought to be up to riding a 200 cc motorcycle, you need to put the trainer wheels back on your bicycle and start all over again at the beginning.
A "legalist" is not the worst person around. Consider also these other bad types: sinner (that is, transgressor of God's laws), worker of iniquity, unrighteous, rebel, pervert, murderer, adulterer, thief, idolater, blasphemer, illegalist, etc. They aren't so nice either.
If you think the WCG members under HWA fell for some "ridiculous theories," go check out the really ridiculous theories that the illegalists fall for! Their truly ridiculous theories are legion, just like the demons behind their ridiculous theories.
People still need physical rest, which is why God Himself made the Sabbath for (not against) man (not just the Jews). The illegalists can go for the jobs that offer 24 days on and then 4 days off, or the ones that offer 24/7/365 slavery.
Also, the annual Holy Days, which do appear to picture God's plan of salvation, have not all been fulfilled yet.
Bob, you need to ask yourself if the Holy Spirit is really working with those who reject everything that God said in the Bible. Perhaps it is some other, different, spirit, since the influence is totally different than that of the Holy Spirit.
It is common practice these days to try to pass off ignorant and sinful behavior as showing great growth in "faith, love, and spirituality." I met a former WCG member who talks exactly like you. When trying to explain why he thinks that God's laws should be done away with, he claims that he doesn't plan to go totally wild. The problem is that he has always been pretty wild, swindling other guys and raping girls. It would be easier to consider seriously the idea of rejecting God's laws and ways if the people advocating this approach did not always turn out to be complete, total perverts. The reason that they reject God's right and good ways is simply that they are up to no good, though they are often very smooth talkers and try to hide it.
Now, have a nice ride, Bicycle Bob, but not too nice. You need to stop peddling around and start to get serious.
Anonymous posteth: "People still need physical rest, which is why God Himself made the Sabbath for (not against) man (not just the Jews). The illegalists can go for the jobs that offer 24 days on and then 4 days off, or the ones that offer 24/7/365 slavery."
The sabbath was anything but restful each week. Getting up a the crack of dawn, rushing around to get drssed and out the door to drive an hour or more to services at a building that resembled things other than a church.
After you got to said meeting hall: (Masonic lodge or catholic building) Chairs, sound system, mother's room, recording equipment, tape library, podium, and coffee pot all had to be set up. Any 'offensive' pictures or symbols (since we were meeting in the belly of the beast) had to be covered up.
Once all of that was done, you were treated to two hours of nonsense you have heard a 100 times before after which everything had to be deconstructed and then drive an hour or so home.
Yeah - Good thing God made that sabbath so we could rest.
Anon...Fri Aug 15, 01:11:00 PM NZST
For someone who is attempting to defend an already weak position through generalizations you only undermine your arguement by name calling, and flippency.
Try following some of the advice in that same Bible you're thumpin' on and you might come across as being a little more worth listening to.
Gal 5:22
Matt 10:16
Anonymous,
I have a problem with your logic. You compare bad with worse, and in your context of relativism, come up with good. That is normally fallacious, but especially egregious when the bad object with which you start has historically claimed to be "God's True Church".
Secondly, we have several categories of people posting here. I believe the atheists would agree that, yes, they do reject the Bible, they do not believe the Holy Spirit exists, but they they consider themselves to be good people because they practice secular ethics.
However, there are also a number of persons who use the same book, the Bible, but who have arrived at a different understanding from your own. Such people are hardly lawless, in fact they are the living embodiment of Gal.5:16-21, which was God's original intent for mankind as He walked with Adam and Eve, prior to man's fall, and the imposition of Mosaic law. This has everything to do with the restoration process initiated by Jesus, and detailed in Rom.5:17-19.
I've found, over the years, that people, especially other Christians, are completely different from the ways in which the leaders of your church have portrayed them. I will say this, however. Even evangelical preachers have commented that only about 10% of Christians behave any differently from "the world" than do their non-Christian counterparts.
I'm actually thinking of changing my screen name. Because I enjoy motorcycles, apparently ACOG people still assume that I'm a flagrant sinner, just as they did back in the '60s when I rode them on the AC campus. Think about this for a moment. While you are riding, you want to be really close to God. You have an appreciation for the life and freedom which God has given you, and realize how vulnerable you really are. I think the mega churches are more enlightened on this topic, as I've noticed that some have motorcycle clubs, which also function as one of their outreach activities used to assist people in finding God.
BB
Hey Byker Bob,
Luke 21:22,32
Kinda says it all, doesn't it?
Charlie said...
[I fought the (Sabbath) law and the law won.]
Charlie Horse,
So sad to hear about all your hustle and bustle and trampling on the Sabbath day. I realise that things were not perfect in the WCG. Understand, though, that things can be even less perfect at many other places. Working in a field, factory, or mine for seven days a week could really improve your attitude toward the idea of a weekly Sabbath rest. May I recommend 3-1/2 years of slave labor for the neo-Nazis in the coming Great Tribulation as a cure for your whining?
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Mickey said...
For someone who is attempting to defend an already weak position through generalizations you only undermine your arguement by name calling, and flippency.
Mickey Mouse,
Yes, the name calling is a weakness that I give in to. Just pray that I don't give in to the bad advice of the illegalists at this blog who say I should stop trying to obey God's righteous laws that were given for the good of everyone, and become like them, killing people, raping their daughters, and stealing their cars.
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Byker Bob said...
[Some more tripe ... vroom, peddle, vroom.]
Tricycle Bob,
I, too, have met some from the Sunday-keeping crowd. Their many doctrinal errors are great and cannot be overlooked. I have seen how anything goes with them, except the truth of God that is in the Bibles that they carry around. I have seen how they are quick to judge those who are better than themselves, saying that they are not good Christians because they do not go to church on Sunday morning, and so will burn for ever and ever in hell fire.
The only good I have ever seen in any of them is in as much as any of them ever do actually follow some biblical teaching, such as not committing adultery, etc. (Many do commit adultery.)
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ADDITIONAL EXPLANATION
Many people now hate God's laws because of their bad experiences in the WCG and its splinter groups. This has left them confused. They associate God with the evil people who came in His name.
The problem in the WCG was with people sinning. In other words, the problem in the WCG was with people breaking God's laws.
HWA should not have made up wrong dates for the end of the world (age), and used them to badger more money out of his followers.
GTA should not have been so sexually immoral.
Some of the spoiled WCG brat members should not have lied and slandered and done such evil to others for no reason.
The splinter group leaders and members should stop thinking of the present time as an opportunity for them to do all the evil they can to others, thinking that God is not watching and that they will get away with it.
If you truly do good to others you will actually be obeying (at least some of) God's laws. Those who want to do away with God's laws typically have nastier plans in store for other people.
Some satanic frauds like Gerald's PCG try to fix people up with much older sex perverts for the old perverts' own selfish and immoral purposes. The victims get kicked out of the PCG and slandered all over the place if they do not go along with it. They are told outrageous lies about how the leaders have done so much for them and tried so hard to help them. This is an example of the satanic lying that goes on in the PCG. No wonder at all that some people don't trust these monsters of depravity. But note well that the problem is that the PCG does not obey God's laws. All the evil in it comes from them breaking God's laws.
The disgust expressed at this blog should be towards those who break God's good laws.
Anonymous said: "Charlie Horse,
So sad to hear about all your hustle and bustle and trampling on the Sabbath day. I realise that things were not perfect in the WCG. Understand, though, that things can be even less perfect at many other places. Working in a field, factory, or mine for seven days a week could really improve your attitude toward the idea of a weekly Sabbath rest. May I recommend 3-1/2 years of slave labor for the neo-Nazis in the coming Great Tribulation as a cure for your whining?"
--> Why don't you go commit a physiologically impossible act of self-impregnation.
My point is that the sabbath was anything but restful and I find it impossible to believe that the 318 or so mosaic laws were dictated by God. The were proclaimed by men to control ex-slaves. It is as simple as that. The only people that benefited from herbie's take on religion were those on the receiving end of the tithes and offerings, the rest of us were either born into the garbage religion or were sold a bag of shit that hasn't taken place in over 2000 years despite EVERY SINGLE religious nut since saying it would happen in their lifetimes. Suggesting 3.5 years in a nazi konzentrationlager to someone is typical harmstrong fear mongering.
Anonymous,
I believe that the majority of the disgust expressed on this blog is directed towards hypocrisy. And, yes, that is a people problem, or a church corporate problem, not a God problem.
If you believe in the goodness of God's law, you and I are not that far removed, philosophically speaking. I believe that Jesus Christ causes good fruits to grow in the lives of those who sincerely and without reservation call on Him, and invite Him into their lives. I believe that Jesus and St. Paul have done a very good job of outlining what these fruits include. In fact, Jesus actually reiterated all of the commandments, but deliberately (and some may say curiously) left out the sabbath commandment, which we know that He fulfilled.
TGCOL (the two great commandments of the Lord) were the driving principles behind the legalistic schoolteacher which was imposed specifically on the Israelites as a people for a limited time. If you have ever studied the Jewish interpretation of Mosaic law, you will understand that the Jews did not parse these laws into commandments, ceremonial laws, and washings. The Jews, who were God's chosen curators of that law, believe that the law stands or falls as a unit. It is not something from which you would get to pick and choose. Have you taken a mikvah lately? Paul tells us that subjecting ourselves to the elements of the old covenant actually blinds us to the new covenant.
Obviously, we each have our own understandings of the meaning of what Jesus Christ has accomplished, and is doing in His peoples' lives. Perhaps, in time, there will be unity. As long as we are sincere in our beliefs and in our behavior, I don't believe there will be a problem. I expect that when Jesus returns, there will be plenty of correction to go around. Fair enough?
BB
Corky,
The time of the end is irrelevant to me. We may be living in it, or we may not. We both know that it is something which false prophets have used to exploit people, and is certainly not a salvation issue.
I believe it is more likely that each of us will be facing our own personal "time of the end" rather than the "end of the age". That, of course, could become a salvation issue.
I don't know. You were once a Christadelphian minister, and I know that you have forgotten more about the Bible than I ever knew. I think you might possibly at least be wondering about these things. I'd really like to see best case scenario for you, man.
BB
To summarize a few pro-Sabbathkeeing comments, if you keep Sunday, you can't understand prophecy.
Well, does that rule out understanding non-prophetic things? Remember one of HWA's favorite sources was Bullinger's Companion Bible. E.W. Bullinger - Anglican minister - how Sunday keeping can you get?
Charlie,
Don't let the CoG apologist get you down. Just look s/h/it in the eye, smile sweetly, and say:
"Concentration camp? I grew up in one. Survive another one through the great trib? Psssshhh. Piece of cake!"
'S'what I would way. Oh wait, I think I just did.
"say" not "way" ugh.
Must remember to hit Preview instead of Publish, no matter how rushed I am.......
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