Bob Thiel recently provided a helpful link on his blog to Gerry Flurry's DUI arrest record - the PDF of the documents released by the State of Oklahoma. This was followed by, dare one say, a flurry of outrage because those papers included the alleged prophet's social security number.
Who to blame, who to blame... Flurridian supporters, one suspects, are not exactly the sharpest knives in the drawer. One might quite properly reserve one's righteous indignation for the authorities that released the documents. Then again, a spot of knicker-twisting might be vented on the website that released the papers onto the web. But no, the holier than thou brethren blamed... Bob!
AW links to a lot of websites and blogs - including Bob's. A link obviously doesn't imply endorsement, just a friendly nod to fellow travellers on the information superhighway. It's surprising then to hear that top officials in the LCG (apparently including sub-ayatollah Ames) were led - doubtless by the holy spirit - to pronounce on the issue, and Bob has now removed the wicked link.
My problem isn't that Bob links, but rather that he doesn't link often enough. In countless posts referring to "the anti-COG" AW blog Bob relentlessly fails to link. I guess that's his version of "Computer Nanny." In this case he did indeed link, to Robert Kuhne's excellent site on PCG. As I understand it, Bob didn't publicise either Flurry's SS number, nor the fact that the SS number was anywhere on the document.
Me, I'm a Kiwi, and therefore blissfully ignorant of the significance of a US SS number. Heck, I didn't think you guys even had social security... next they'll be telling me you have public health insurance! I certainly didn't think twice about linking to the same document, and gehenna will freeze over before that link gets pulled. Unhappy campers can picket outside the courthouse in Edmond which provided the material, or cast sanctimonious proof texts via email at Robert who courageously hosts the info.
For those who missed the link, here it is again: save a copy on your hard drive, email it to your relatives, print out an extra copy to give away. And be sure and drop by Robert's main page. No, I don't see eye to eye with Robert on everything, but he's a brave and principled man performing a valuable service, and that's worth acknowledging!
73 comments:
Why does Bob Thiel repost so much of Vision.orgs material? Does he not have enough material to make everyone think that LCG is the true Philadelphia Church? Funny how he never links back to the original sites. I smell the next major spin off here. Thiel has the attention of most of the old WCGers looking for new juicy tidbits on what all the ex WCG members and splinters are doing today. All he needs now is a dramatic event to separate him from Meredith, a new church name, a P.O. Box and Bob will be in the business of collecting his own tithes. I am surprised that Rod hasn't caught on to this.
Well, control is the name of the game in small organizations with grandiose ideas of themselves. That is such a trait of the WCG and Daughters. From their press, you'd think they were huge.
The Restored Church of God must be everywhere. Students must be lined up and crying over no room to get in. The whole world is shaken to it's foundations...No wait, that was Weinland on shakeage... It's all smoke and mirrors.
Typical of the "no really we are big," mentally is one LCG pastor saying..
" In the last five years we have had more than 10 baptisms, with two pending>"
I was a minister, I know what that means. It's looking for the best you can come up with for not much going on. How can you not know if you had "more than 10 baptisms?" Is it 11 and you just lost track? Two pending in ten years? That sounds not so cost effective.
Then there is the concept of a University..Sounds big! Important! Credible!
"A university is an institution of higher education and research, which grants academic degrees in a variety of subjects. A university provides both undergraduate education and postgraduate education. The word university is derived from the Latin universitas magistrorum et scholarium, roughly meaning "community of teachers and SCHOLARS".
Ahem...Scholars? Would that not imply you have read more than your own booklets and Bible in the last 50 years? Has RCM read ANYTHING in the last 50 years on the dis-harmony of the gospels before he teaches his Harmony of the Gospels class? I think not. Perhaps it's a UNI-Versity in it's own parallel universe, but is not real or informed.
Bob Thiel's site has simply become the "Plain" ("Present" might be safer) Truth online however one defines truth. He allows for no imput and his word on how it all is, what world news, God, Jesus and the deep blue sea all mean is pretty much final.
One would think a Dr. would be much more open to other possibilities, but not when snagged into a mindset that just has to be true because...well, it's in the Bible. Ok, it's in my view of the Bible.
The Internet must drive churches nuts. Had I had access to better information, I would not have taken certain routes in life. I may have still searched out all things theological, but not ended up with the WCG experience. But probably just another with the same lessons...who knows.
At Bob Jones University, the Internet is all in house, filtered with dire warnings to students who even think to stray outside it. Pathetic but necessary to maintain control of the topic from the top down and avoid running into another view that might counteract the mind virus one has already contracted.
sigh....
Flurry's "SS" number. LOL - I can hear the "Sieg, Heils" and the goosestepping now.
Gavin, We do have social security here in America. Problem is that it isn't enough to allow you to be very social and it is anything but secure.
Smarter Americans save money and plan for retirement without taking into consideration what they may or may not receive from social security.
A social security number is also not to be used for identification purposes, however it is used by just about every organization in the states for just that. Hence our current fascination with identity theft.
For example...The LU Anthropology course...hmmm, wonder if it gets Genesis straightened out?
"The Textbook for this course is:
Scupiin, Raymond. Cultural Anthropology: A Global Perspective (Hey that explains it.."Global" but I thought they tanked?)
A word of caution, the textbook used in this course is a commercial publication. It represents the views and ideas of its authors (duh), editors and publishers. Living University does not endorse the text, nor vouches for it's accuracy. (too tired to check I guess) We simply simply employ it in helping students master the content of the course."
Too bad they don't put that on their booklets! Kinda hard to master the content if you won't vouch for it.
Perhaps all COG booklets should have this disclaimer:
"A word of caution. Sadly and of course, this is a book/booklet on religion. It represents the views of the authors, editors and publishers. We can't be sure we got this right, but we are good Bible readers so we think it's close. We haven't checked for accuracy of the text. Too scary. We simply produce these booklets to help members and co workers feel educated and to keep sending it in."
I'm pleased they are including a study on human origins but I fear it may conclude:
"All human beings began in a swamp located near the present day city of Basra in southern Iraq. God made the very first human from mud and catails. The very first woman came from the seventh left side rib, which is why men today have one less rib than women. While some have said that God did this so woman can feel close to the heart of man, it was really because the first man had 24 ribs so one less was no biggy. God was not about to make woman out of the femur of man. By and by, a talking snake deceived the woman into eating fruit reserved only for the gods and that's why the whole world is screwed up today and Jesus needs to return."
sigh again....:)
The next time I get one of those Nigerian scam letters, I am using Geralds SS#
I am sorry to hear that Bob ran afoul of the higher-ups; I hope he is doing OK.
In the US it is oddly common for official documents, which contain a person's social security number, to be made publicly available simply because the document was entered into evidence in court.
Dennis touched on a topic that has bothered me for some time regarding his comments what may be the conclusion of the Human Origins class at Living 'University'.
The foundation concept of bible toters is fantastically ludicrous...I'll try to be brief:
1.) We (according to the bible) are to believe that God is an omnipotent, omnipresent, and eternal being. OK
2.) This same being created Lucifer and the angels. OK
3.) This Lucifer decided the boss had to go and convinced a third of the other angels that it was a good idea. Uh, what?
4.) A battle was waged and instead of destroying the 'competition', the all-wise banished them to earth, a nice planet. Er, was that so smart?
5.) Since this first bit of created beings worked out so well, God does it a second time, and this time makes a being *REALLY* susceptible to temptation, MAN. Where (according to the bible) did the all-wise create this man, pray tell??? On the SAME planet that he cast his arch-enemy and his hench-beings. Second verse, worse than the first.
6.) This MAN, after growing weary and lonesome after naming trillions of lesser life forms, begins bitching about being alone. According to the bible, God obliges this MAN with a WOMAN, even more gullible than he was. Tells them they can eat whatever they want, save this one tree. Hmmmm, I am getting a bad feeling about this.
7.) Satan (AKA Lucifer) decides to put on his snake suit (According to the bible) and converses with the WOMAN, and in the course of the conversation, convinces her to eat of the tree they were told not to. This WOMAN (They don't do anything by themselves) convinces her MAN to do the same thing. The All wise and all knowing God (according to the bible story), gets ticked and makes them clothes and kicks them out of Eden and into the wilderness to toil and bring forth children in pain until death overcomes them.
RIIIIGGGGHHHHHT.
In summary: God (Smartest guy ever), created Lucifer (Later Satan and coincidentally the third or second most clever being ever), banishes him to planet earth, then creates MAN (Not so bright or high up in the cosmic pecking order) ALSO on earth. They, being of lesser intellect, not surprisingly fail to live up to the simple rule set forth by God and boy the rest of us are going to pay for it for a long long time.
Extra Note: The obvious thing to do at the time since man couldn't follow one simple rule, was to give him LOTS OF RULES, many in conflict with good sense and each other.
It is a very small wonder that Benjamin Franklin came to the conclusion that the bible, as it reads, is the best vehicle of all for creating atheists.
For those that don't know me, I am not an atheist. I don't believe there is much in the form of fact that gain be gleaned from the bible however.
Social Security number? Who don't know anyone's SS# if they really want to? They used to put it automatically on your driver's license, and use it for your serial number on your military "dog tags".
Who all has your SS#? Your bank, your boss, your doctor, three men in a tub and the candlestick maker, that's who. But no, it's never used for identification purposes and I'll wake up in the morning and be 18 years old again and make a return trip to Vietnam.
ID theft? It's easy and it's against the law that makes it possible to start with and it's very profitable. Most ID theives learned how to do it from having their own ID stolen.
Ever write a check somewhere or use your credit card - they've got your SS# on their computer and now anyone can get it if they know how.
Use an ATM? Don't retrieve your card before you get your receipt and the machine says, "take your card" or the next person has an open account to play with! Just a little friendly advice.
Cool stuff available at the Social Security website for finding the SS numbers of deceased folk.
Here is the record for Joseph W. Tkach Sr. ...
http://genealogy.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=genealogy&cdn=parenting&tm=3&gps=242_149_937_690&f=00&su=p284.9.336.ip_p504.1.336.ip_&tt=2&bt=1&bts=0&zu=http%3A//ssdi.genealogy.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/ssdi.cgi
You not only get the SS number but also date of birth and death, and where.
JWT's SS number was 326-20-8043
Herman Hoeh 571-40-3395
GTA 540-32-1971
Another interesting site for the macabre is "FindAGrave.com ". Here you can search for grave sites and actually see pictures of the gravesites . GTA, HWA, Tkach and others are listed there too.
Public records are a trip!
Lussneheide
Why worry about the number of that little beast?
Anyone who wants to be outraged should be outraged by the thought of Gerald's dozens of identity thefts: That Prophet, The Lawgiver, etc., etc., etc.
Of course, questioning Gerald's identity thefts could get one expelled from that one false cult out of so many.
Reading Bob Thiel's work reminds me of myself years ago - even the odd convoluted and awkward writing style. Since my idea of "proof" was either Euclidean deduction or "IF - THEN - ELSE", I was a sucker for arguments using "proof texts". Later when I needed to take courses in subjects like sociology, writing a paper presenting a real argument proved my undoing.
At present I'm helping a graduate student prepare a "compare and contrast" paper on three learning theories. The principle is to establish accepted, valid, external metrics, show similarities, show differences between them, not just bounce them off each other.
Sadly, as Bob would say, I don't believe LCG doctrine should be considered such a metric.
So what the heck does the good Dr. Kuhn believe...
Is he currently an apologist for some form of Christianity or Judaism?
Does he still rub shoulders with any Church of God types?
Does Dr. Kuhn just as vehemently warn people about the myths in Catholicism, Protestantism, and Judaism?
I think not...
Charlie said...
Smarter Americans save money and plan for retirement without taking into consideration what they may or may not receive from social security.
Smarter American's didn't give most of their life's money to their church either!
Probably, Uncle Roddie got the Melvins while thinking about the possibility of retaliation. Like, what would happen if Flurryites somehow obtained and published RCM's SS #.
Now, I don't believe that most ministers have paid into the SS Administration throughout their careers, but they would still be required to have SS numbers, and yes indeedy, identity theft would therefore be a distinct possibility, especially if a disgruntled ex-member wanted to put the hurt on one or any of his former brainwashers.
The ACOGs attracted many people who were seeking healing, and when ACOG "therapy" didn't work, there were problems. The fact that Ed Mentell used to receive "Christian" death threats at the original Painful Truth website pretty much says it all.
It's probably better that the little boys just stick to calling one another Laodecean, as opposed to having a duel racing to publish one another's SS #'s.
BB
Hey Corky, thanks for the cookies comment. I've no more control over that than any other blogspot blogger. Always a good idea to do an occasional cleanout of those things though. Drop me a note by email and I'll see if I can follow up.
Anonymous said...
So what the heck does the good Dr. Kuhn believe...
Just to make things clear,
the Robert S. Kuhn of the PCG Watch
site, is NOT the Dr. Robert Lawrence Kuhn from the halcyon days of the WCG. That Bob Kuhn has gone on to much bigger fish to fry than the mundane machinations of post
H-Dub splinter group activities.
ConnedNoMore
>>>In summary: God (Smartest guy ever), created Lucifer (Later Satan and coincidentally the third or second most clever being ever).
At the moment, my interest in being kindled to Astronomy and have just started reading the book: The Witness of the Stars by EW Bullinger and also have a copy of The Gospel in the Stars by Joseph A Seiss (available at Amazon).
In the WCG tradition, we sang Psalm 19, the heavens do declare God's glory, "their voices never heard" - the bridegroom leaving its chamber, running its course - actallly is the Sun working through the 12 stars of the Zodiac. The sun moves through the 12 signs throughout the year.
God has written out His plan in advance, it is contained in the stars! For those people who doubt God, and His plan, I would recommend reading these books, it may change your perspective on God!
Bullinger? Robert, you need to burn that thing. I'm not so sure about "you are what you eat," but I'm 90% convinced that "you are what you read." Bullinger will harden your arteries and rot your intestines.
See the Wiki article on Bulldust Bullinger.
Robert said:
"God has written out His plan in advance, it is contained in the stars! For those people who doubt God, and His plan, I would recommend reading these books, it may change your perspective on God!"
Robert, Robert, you are not far from an understanding of the origins of the crucified godman mythology of the Sun's journey through the Twelve Signs of the Zodiac.
However, God did not write it in the stars. It's a very old mythology and tells the story of ALL Godmen from Osiris to Mithris and Jesus.
The the staring god-man changed every 2190 years with the progression of the Equinox which changes the sun sign that is crucified at Easter in Spring
4000-2000BC it was Bull Worship in the religions of Taurus. The OT ended calf worship and 2000-0 BC it was Aries the Lamb crucified at the Spring Equinox at Easter on the Celestial Equator and the Ecliptic. Just as the Bull Taurus was slain to end that age, so Jesus, the Lamb was slain at the end of Aries. Jesus, the lamb really was with us until the end of the age..which was Aries. Not the end of the world.
Then came Pices, the age of the Fish, the church age , fishers of men 0-about now. Pices is moving out of the prime Easter Spot now and a few hundre years, it will be Easter in Aquarius the Waterman.
My guess is that christian fundamentalism as the Church will die over the next few hundred years and it's fluid of choice, BLOOD, to be replaced by a religion honoring WATER (Aquarius)
It's happened with significant religious sifts before, why not again?
But no, God, as in the Bible, did not tell the story of salvation in the stars. Men made up the story as they looked at the stars.
BTW..The origin of Isaiah 14 with Lucifer as the Bright and Morning Star ascending to take God's thrown and being thrown back down to earth, is the story of the literal Planet Venus , the Bright and Moring star appearing to race to the Most High point of God, but appears to be thrown back to earth because it is an inner planet and does not run East to West as do the outer planets.
Sorry, it's a favorite topic and study. It is manmade and then was literalized by the dear church that has screwed up reality ever since.
>>Sorry, it's a favorite topic and study. It is manmade and then was literalized by the dear church that has screwed up reality ever since.
Jordan Maxwell has studied some of these things in great detail. He calls it, Astrotheology.
You can watch a two hour 20 mintue presentation on google video. Type in Jordan Maxwell: Astrotheology.
He comes to the conclusion that ISRAEL is the worship of ISis, RA (sun god), EL. He mentions the planet Venus which led the way for the rising of the Sun. Black robes worn by priests today are signs of the god Saturn etc. In the end it can lead people to think that our modern religion is nothing more than the worship of Isis, Osiris and Horus. He believes the word "amen" comes from Amen Ra - the word said after praying to the Sun God, Ra.
He confuses pagan Christianity from true Christianity. And it is likely that two religions co existed together, the true religion (worship of Elohim) and Sun worship.
a facinating study for sure, and it shows how intricate God's plan is.
an intelligence far greater than anything we can imagine designed and put into action everything you mentioned.
it gives the non-believer a way out, so to speak, but the believer sees the greatness of God in it.
"....our modern religion is nothing more than the worship of Isis, Osiris and Horus."
Now you're catching on Robert. Good for you!
DennisDiehl said...
My guess is that christian fundamentalism as the Church will die over the next few hundred years and it's fluid of choice, BLOOD, to be replaced by a religion honoring WATER (Aquarius)
Already a shortage of water, drinking water that is, is taking a toll on vast areas of the world. Natural aquifers are being depleted by irrigation, streams and rivers are polluted and ground water in many places is not safe to drink because of chemicals seeping into the ground. People are drinking purified bottled water everywhere today. Something that was unheard of a few decades ago.
Yep, I can see religion turning to water as a symbol of salvation but I don't think it will take hundreds of years.
How long will it be before people are so desparate for drinking water that they buy melted glacial ice in bottles . . . oh, I forgot, they already do!
"the true religion (worship of Elohim) and Sun worship."
The origin of ALL religion, either "pagan" or "Christian" is solar worship.
The "EL" of Genesis is but the chief God, evolved from Canaanite religion to be the chief god over the council of the gods. When it says, "let us make man in our image" Yaweh Elohim was consulting with his council of advisors, the elohim. When Satan comes before God in Job, he comes before the assembly of the "bene elohim", the elohim beings.
Herbert Armstrong never got Elohim right even though we all choked on it being a uni plural noun, which it is. The us is not God and Jesus to be.
In Deut 32:8-9 we see that Yahweh,"the Lord" is subordinate to another god known as El or Elyon. El assigns a special territory of Israel to Yahweh.
When the OT has El say "You shall have no other gods before me," it means, "You shall not bring any other gods into my presence." The polytheism of the times is intact still. Why not bring them into his presence? "Because I the Lord thy God, am a jealous god."
Obviously there is no need for jealousy when there is only one god to begin with. There were many. This God of the ten commandments just didn't want to have them around him.
Astro-theology is not God explain his plan to man by way of the stars. That's backwards. It is man telling his own story of salvation by the journey of the SUN through the 12 signs of the zodiac. (Few constellations actually look like the animals people they portray.) It's the story of the SUN of God that is important)
Even the four faced Cherubs with the face of an Ox (Taurus-Spring) The face of a Lion (Leo-Summer) The face of a eagle (Aquila-Fall) and the face of a man (Aquarius-winter) are merely where the sun is in 4 equidistant signs of the zodiac we call the seasons. Astrotheology at it's best. The literal existence of Cherubs however is a personal belief.
Saying the stars tell God's plan is like believing, which most do, that the prophecies of Jesus birth were foretold by Isaiah etc. When in fact, Matthew wrote his story of Jesus birth around those passages which never really meant what meaning he assigned them in the NT. That style is called Midrash. No one seemed to know or want to admit Jesus birth circumstances, so they had to reach back into the OT to cobble a fantastic child story together for an amazing adult, as they understood it. Matthew's birth narrative is both midrash and excellent astro-theology. Long story.
You got the origin of Isra-EL right, Robert The reason it leads to the conclusion that christianity is pagan is that it is. Do not think that Judaism evolved in a vacuum. It's roots are not untouched by sun worship and "paganism."
A-mun, I mean A-men
PS (of course:)
The orginal El had a consort, Asherah. Written out of the OT so God had no female to mess up the OT switch from matriary to patriarchy. "Both were primordial beings, they had been there always." El, whose name simply meant 'god' was the creator and procreator, overseer of conception, who sired the gods, thus being also called 'Bull El' in continuity with the ancient bull god of fertility.
Bull worship was popular in earth's religions from 4000-2000 BC due to the fact that Taurus was the sign in the Springs Equinox called Easter. This dominance of the Bull in religion, at this time, tells us about when in history this was. Look to the spring equinox. That defined the symbol of the Suns of God.
Asherah and El form a creation male and female, representing the bull and the earth goddess we see emerging from the ancient continuum at Catal Huyuk. El is supposed to have gone out to sea and asked two Goddesses, one presumably being Athirat and the other possibly Anath to choose between being his spouses and being his daughters. They chose the former. Their offspring are Shaher and Shalem, the morning and evening stars, (Venus) from which Lucifer, the light-bearer, takes his name.
Hey Dennis,
Any insights WRT the linkage/family tree of "Asherah" and the Gnostics' Sophia/Wisdom Goddess? I haven't run across that connection, myself, but the Gnostics aren't very Judaic at all. Except for the Gnostic Apostolic Church in NSW. They're BI, believe it or not. Bleah. :-(
"The orginal El had a consort, Asherah."
I would recommend "Did God Have a Wife" by Michael Dever. It is a bit wordy but an excellent study of the role of the Feminine Deity in the history of Israel and Judah. The common people never gave up their belief in a "Mother God".
In fact the "trinity" really consists of Father, Mother, and Son. The Holy Spirit comes from Mother God.
Who do think said "let us make man in our image"... do you really think the deities were all male?
The Bible was put together by an all male priesthood, a patriarchy, that wanted to keep women subservient to men.
So they wrote Mother God out of the scriptures.
it's obvious that the reason God let the Tkatch's take control of WCG is was to separate out His Church from the non-belivers that were hanging around....
and as is always the case, the non-believers get all of the press, while The Church continues along under the radar.
The worship of many gods is nothing new, in history or today. You can try to minimize Judaism/Christianity by saying "it's just a pagan religion", but you would be wrong. The whole idea behind Judaism and Christianity is the worship of *one* God, the Eternal God. The fact that this point is lost on some of you doesn't make it any less real. Throughout the Bible you read the admonitions to turn away from sorcery, turn away from astrology, turn away from putting your trust in these false gods and turn to the one True God. The discussions we have here are good evidence of what happens when you turn away to other gods.
I don't think the commandments are in priority order, but one would assume that the first one is there for a reason.
OK, enough preaching. Carry on.
Robert...,
Dennis die Menace,
PurpleNoise,
Other goofballs,
Etc.,
You try to find fault with the Bible and its teachings. Then, you come up with all this complete, total NONSENSE!!! You all ought to be ashamed of yourselves, and some day will be. You are rejecting the Bible in order to recklessly make up, and carelessly follow, such FOOLISHNESS!!!
Get a grip.
Anonymous 2:02, If it was God who allowed what you describe as "His Church" to be separated out, wouldn't you think He would have done this to further His work, as in being able to get the gospel out with more power?
HWA used to tell us that God was not the author of confusion. Yet, we read in the Bible that God often does use confusion to diffuse the efforts of those working against his purpose. He did this at the tower of Babel, and He did it with the armies of enemies who were attacking Israel.
What would you call the process of splintering which has occurred in the former WCG? You could only say that the focus of this group has been confused, and diluted. Some have said that God has spewed the WCG from his mouth, as He said He would do to the Laodeceans. Whatever the cause, HWA's version of the gospel, or end time commission, has become nearly invisible. What does that say to you about that particular version of a gospel message? Does it, or did it ever have the witness of God behind it? Remember, we're talking about a God here who said he'd raise up stones to get the message out, if necessary. I submit that you can tune in to non-ACOG preachers and evangelists, and witness the gospel going out in great power through huge satellite networks around the world.
BB
"The whole idea behind Judaism and Christianity is the worship of *one* God, the Eternal God."
It is just an idea...
Even the God of the OT says there are many gods, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me".
COG-0-MANIA is the mistaken belief that if you sift the NT properly, ignore conflicting personalities and ideas, harmonized the unharmonious and pretend that Peter, James, John and Paul were all on the same refresher together....you will find the true church and it will be Jewish.
If you then go to The Journal and read the COG-0-MANIA ads carefully and with the discernment of the Holy Spirit, you can pick out the true true mythological church of God for our times.
The idea that the story of the Son of God originated with the SUN of God, is simply diabolical mimicry foistered off on the public, by Satan, in anticipation of the real Son of God coming on down the road at a time appointed.
Anyone knows that :)
There were also many divergent Israelite beliefs in the OT about Yahweh and the lesser gods. There was both strick and sloppy monotheism. In the NT you also have strict and sloppy monotheism depending on one's view of the nature of three in one or fully God and fully man.
Doctrines evolve to explain the mistakes and things not thought through in the previous explanations.
The entire NT is predicated on the assumption that "spiritual Jews" can make the Jewish scriptures mean what they never meant and act like it works.
Once one compares how the OT was quoted by those in the NT with what the OT really says...it's all downhill from there.
"You can never make a scripture mean what it never meant."
However, all NT writers were very good at doing just that.
I so wish Jesus could have learned to write....
"The whole idea behind Judaism and Christianity is the worship of *one* God, the Eternal God."
Just as long as one understands, or not, that in the text itself "God" evolved from a polytheistic setting that most Israelites took to their graves having inherited the gods from others before them.
The OT then edits out, in some places badly, the references to this polytheism and eventually we end up with what we think is the way it always was, monotheistically, in the past.
"From The Cross to the grave,
From the grave to the sky,
Lord I lift Your Name on High"
can also be sung...
"From the Council of the Gods (Elohim)...
To the "Let us" of Old El..
From Old El to Yahweh
From Yahweh to the Lord..
From the Lord to Jesus Christ.
And back to the council of the three...
Lords we lift your names on high.."
I NEVER said it would follow the song exactly!
Someone who should know better wrote...
He confuses pagan Christianity from true Christianity. And it is likely that two religions co existed together.......
Pagan means of the peasants.
That's all it means.
There never was one "true Christianity" its always been one diverse load of opinions about the man from Galilee. There is no one historical faith to return to.
There was a gentile Christianity and a Jewish Christianity, former adapted to its gentile context, the latter, because it was exclusive in nature insisting on Mosaic foods laws and rituals, probably declined to very small desert following and likely became the forerunner of what is now known as Islam.
Which would explains Islam's belief in Jesus as a prophet.
Anon 7:07
I'm in general agreement. One religious history scholar, Walter Bauer, wrote that many regional versions of Christianity emerged. The reason the Roman version dominated was because it was Rome, the seat of the empire.
I think Bauer's work would have been better received had it not been published in Germany in 1934.
Robert...,
Dennis die Menace,
PurpleNoise,
Other goofballs,
Etc.,
"You try to find fault with the Bible and its teachings."
It's not difficult and don't think that's orginal with Goofballs & Co.
"Then, you come up with all this complete, total NONSENSE!!!"
Not according to some impressive research and historical research on such things.
"You all ought to be ashamed of yourselves, and some day will be."
Sorry mom.... :(
"You are rejecting the Bible"
Not really. Just explaining that gods and religion don't spring from their own cultural vacuums, unaffected by those around them. There are eternal archetypes in the night sky that humans have brought to earth and while we all know that everyone elses is not true, we tend to defend our similar story as absolutely true.
...in order to recklessly make up, and carelessly follow, such FOOLISHNESS!!!"
Deciding the motive and reasons for why people come to conclusions other than those most need or want to accept is a no no. And mom, don't yell at me! :)
"Get a grip."
This is exactly how I feel I have gained a grip.
Anonymous said...
it's obvious that the reason God let the Tkatch's take control of WCG is was to separate out His Church from the non-belivers that were hanging around....
Well that's one theory. The other is HWA's ego couldn't tolerate any other opinions, so he left his organization wide open for a power grab when he died with his centralized power structure and bylaws.....
......and as is always the case, the non-believers get all of the press......
We'll be generous and give you the benefit of the argument that we are the "non-believers"......(at least in your eyes)...
while your "Church continues under the radar...."
Is it OUR FAULT, that your Church insists its members operate in Stealth mode so as to not show up on the radar? Do WE control what you say and write or do YOUR PREACHERS have the last word in what you say, write and THINK?
Some of your "Churches" think so little of you, that they don't even call you "members" of their own association....you're just the tithing nameless powerless masses.
If anything, Gavin's web site puts you ON THE RADAR...otherwise you wouldn't come here for information.
Hey Gavin,
I like that "Feedjit" thingy. I can watch myself "arrive". I noticed that someone arrived about the same time as I did today and from the same area of Cabot, Arkansas.
"There was a gentile Christianity and a Jewish Christianity, "
Explains why some scriptures endorse the Sabbath while others "do-away" with it.
"Even the God of the OT says there are many gods, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me"."
No, the God of the OT and the NT says there is but *one God*, hence the commandment. Of course people will turn to many idols to worship, and that's why belief in the One True God is central to these religions. Even the Apostle Paul acknowledged that the Athenians worshiped other "gods" and pointed them to the "unknown God" which is the true God of the universe. Acknowledging other mythological gods does not mean that they are real, just that people make them their god.
Judaism/Christianity is unequivocably monotheistic. That's in stark contrast to the many pagan religions.
I think dennisdiehl needs to go back to seminary! This is where his enlightened self-study has brought him to? I don't know him from adam, never heard him preach (that I know of), and don't know anything of his style of ministry in the WCG. That being said, his writings are decidedly agnostic at best. I read his previous comments here and elsewhere in a new light!
It is obvious to me that this entire debate boils down to one question, and one question only. Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that salvation only comes through Him as a free gift? If the response is, you want to debate Jesus as a reinactment of some previous pagan god, then your answer is "no". If you want to debate this on what you need to do after you "believe" in order to "qualify" for salvation, your answer is also "no".
As was in the days of Jesus, so is what is happening today. It really all comes down to who you say Jesus is. That's the dividing line. You either are "in" or your are "out".
Now, continue to debate pagan gods if you like.
>>>You are rejecting the Bible in order to recklessly make up, and carelessly follow, such FOOLISHNESS!!!
Actually, I was studying into these things but have not accepted the mythology. It appears that you have assumed for me.
I believe in the witness of the stars which highlight God's plan of redemption, certainly believe in Jesus and God. I was merely pointing out what others are saying.
I was speaking to an exWCG member about some of these things and he assured that these things have been said for years, they are nothing new. And actually the fault lies in dates and the likelihood both religions came out of Egypt at the same time.
When we look at it logically, ONLY a superior being can create us, NO Moon or Sun God could ever plan, think and design the way our Creator has. Why do we have the body we do, not one shaped like a moon, star, sun, half animal or human, because we were designed by a God with the same shape!
>>>it's obvious that the reason God let the Tkatch's take control of WCG is was to separate out His Church from the non-belivers that were hanging around....
The parable of the wheat and the tares, indicates God allowed both believers and non believers to grow together until the harvest. The idea that God would destroy the church to uproot a handful of tears seems contradictory to scripture. Why would He not just pluck them out individually?
The root cause of the problem was that it became corrupt and no longer glorified God. HWA was a light, he illuminated our paths with some of his teachings, but he at times, he made glaring doctrinal errors. HWA left us in a situation of truth and error, we have to sift through everything until we find the truth. Example: The calendar system we use today does not reflect the same calendar as used by the ancient Israelites.
One day an even greater light will show the world the truth before the coming of Jesus Christ. Whether this is the ministry of the Two Witnesses or some other person God will raise up before then, is, in my mind, uncertain.
We can only hope, and wait till that day arrives!
Robert said, “One day an even greater light will show the world the truth before the coming of Jesus Christ”.
MY COMMENT – Robert, nothing personal, but I have been reading your posts here on AW for months now, and you seem to bend with every direction the winds seem to blow.
I have a better idea, Robert. How about this twist to your above referenced quote:
“One day an even greater light Jesus Christ will return and show the world the Real Plain Truth, and there will no longer be any need for any more intermediaries coming in Christ’s name deceiving many, no more self proclaimed Apostles of God or self proclaimed Two Witnesses of the Book of Revelation, and no longer any more debates over words and the meaning of words written in an ancient book 2,000 years ago”.
How does that sound, Robert?
If you knew anything about HWA, you would know that he proclaimed his work to be the final end time warning. Therefore, there won’t be any greater light that will show the world the truth before the coming of Jesus Christ.
Sorry to be the one to catch you in the error of your premise. It doesn't conform to Armstrong's prophetic theology.
Richard
Reasons Why Beer is Better Than Religion
10. No one will kill you for not drinking Beer.
9. Beer doesn't tell you how to have sex.
8. Beer has never caused a major war.
7. They don't force Beer on minors who can't think for themselves.
6. When you have a Beer, you don't knock on people's doors trying to give it away.
5. Nobody's ever been burned at the stake, hanged, or tortured over his brand of Beer.
4. You don't have to wait 2000+ years for a second Beer.
3. There are laws saying Beer labels can't lie to you.
2. You can prove you have a Beer.
1. If you've devoted your life to Beer, there are groups to help you stop.
"Reasons Why Beer is Better Than Religion"
Great then! Worship your beer. Nobody's stopping you!
"Judaism/Christianity is unequivocably monotheistic. That's in stark contrast to the many pagan religions."
Perhaps now after a two thousand years of theological evolution, but not in their origins. The OT clearly shows this evolution of the El of Genesis and his council of the gods to an iffy monotheism kept, not kept, kept, not kept by Israelites in general.
I'd suggest an evening or two with Twilight of the Gods/Polytheism in the Hebrew Bible by David Penchansky
" It really all comes down to who you say Jesus is. That's the dividing line. You either are "in" or your are "out".
That's what I have come to love about various literalist Christians and fndamentialists.
It's either/ or, true or false, right or wrong, us or them, me or you, Bible or nothing, heaven or hell, kingdom or on firery pond, for us or 'agin us.
I still say it's no coincidence that the Dark Ages were dominated by the church and fundamentalism.
Annon: I would like your take on why the God of the Ten Commandments tells the people "You shall not bring any other gods into my presence" why? "Because I the lord YOUR God am a JEALOUS God."
What's to be jealous of in that context if not the fact that even El/YHVH still acknowleded only a need to be the top god of Israel.
The author was not saying, "because we all know ther really aren't any other gods." The story assumed other gods and in that culture that was believable. Of course in ours we have three gods in one but "that's different."
While you're at it, who were the "us" in "Let us make man in our image...after "our" likeness" and who were the "us" that said that man should be driven from Eden lest now they take of the tree of life and be like "us" and live forever?
It was bad enough that Adam and Eve in the myth took the knowledge of good and evil which was reserved only for the gods, but having eternal life like the gods was too big a threat.
This tale,which has many levels of meaning to those who wrote it, none of them literal, stems from ancient mesopotamian tales that the hebrews turned around a bit to make different points about their theology.
"ummmmmmmmmmm....beeeeeeeeeer"
Homer Simpson
Anonymous said...
It is obvious to me that this entire debate boils down to one question, and one question only. Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that salvation only comes through Him as a free gift?
DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! Someone pour the man a half a beer!
You got this far, can you ask the really big question now?
What kind of a picture does such a belief paint about a supposedly MONOTHEISTIC GOD (how you square that with Jesus being his Son I don't know). How could God, who is a merciful loving God who, who as the OT says, gets no pleasure in the blood of bulls and goats in sacrifice.... who prefers a contrite heart... and abhors the sacrifice of human children..... (don't you dare use Abraham and Isaac as model of God and Jesus) could take a human life in such a manner?
What kind of monster is God in that traditional belief about Jesus? Why do we need to be saved from God? That's not the Abba Father Jesus speaks about. That's not the Father outlined in the Prodigal Son, that's the "righteous brother in the Prodigal Son that demands the death of his repentant brother".
If you get to thinking about that question, I'll buy you the other half of the beer!
>>you seem to bend with every direction the winds seem to blow.
I will confess that I haven't worked it all out yet and more often than not, additional information does change my perspective on things, but not the foundation.
There are certain facts that will never change. They are:
1. Two resurrections not three.
2. Tithing laws not applicable today without Temple or Levitical priesthood.
3. Baptism only in Jesus name.
4. Satan will be bodily destroyed in Gehenna.
5. Either we obey all the Torah or none of it. Therefore, Tassels, are requirements!
There are issues outstanding in my mind on many subjects and waiting for a better understanding.
"There are certain facts that will never change. They are:
1. Two resurrections not three.
2. Tithing laws not applicable today without Temple or Levitical priesthood.
3. Baptism only in Jesus name.
4. Satan will be bodily destroyed in Gehenna.
5. Either we obey all the Torah or none of it. Therefore, Tassels, are requirements!"
If you are going to give a list of things that will never change, it needs to be either 3, 7, 12, 24 or 40 things that never change.
That's how the Bible works.
Satan has a body? doh....I think I found something that needs to chaaaaaaaannnge :)
"Obey all of Torah, or none of it"
That is a concept that seems to somehow escape all of the Toraeadors who followed HWA. They think they get to pick and choose. And, they're pretty bull-headed about which ones, too.
1 Cor 8:4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him."
Whoever wrote this acknowledged that "... indeed there are many gods and many lords".
The heavenly realm is much more complex then what is described in the OT & NT.
The OT & NT are mostly political books; grand attempts at social engineering.
Regrettably it worked!
Even today, an all male priesthood continues to control the lives of the common folk in the Religious Right.
This stuff did not come from Jesus.
10. No one will kill you for not drinking Beer.
You can get killed by drinking Beer and driving.
9. Beer doesn't tell you how to have sex.
Beer can make you forget you even had sex and who you had it with.
8. Beer has never caused a major war.
Beer has started many personal ones.
7. They don't force Beer on minors who can't think for themselves.
Many a minor got in major trouble drinking Beer.
6. When you have a Beer, you don't knock on people's doors trying to give it away.
When you have a Beer, you knock on people’s door needing to pee in their bathroom
5. Nobody's ever been burned at the stake, hanged, or tortured over his brand of Beer.
Somebody drinking the Beer have burned people at the stake, hanged and tortured no matter the brand of Beer.
4. You don't have to wait 2000+ years for a second Beer.
It wouldn’t hurt to wait before having a second Beer.
3. There are laws saying Beer labels can't lie to you.
Rules governing alcoholic-beverage labeling suffer from jurisdictional gaps
2. You can prove you have a Beer.
Prove you had a Beer to the traffic cop and get a free pass to jail.
1. If you've devoted your life to Beer, there are groups to help you stop.
If you have devoted your life to Beer, you are a drunken alcoholic.
Dennis is right...
Israel and Judah adapted the religion of the Cannanites. Much of the law of Moses, most of the Holy Days, the entire sacrificial system, the concepts of God, and even some of the OT writings come right out of Cannan.
One of the most important things to understand is that the Passover was a Canaanite festival originally called the "Killing of the Lambs".
The Passover comes right out of Pagan sacrificial ritual.
That means the NT Passover is also a colossal fraud.
Please read the story about Ugarit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugarit
The tablets from Ugarit PROVE that the much of the OT comes right out of Cannon.
It must be noted that God revealed himself to peoples long before Israel came on the scene and many of the Canaanite concepts of God may have been correct.
God apparently did give Israel a moral code that had not existed in the same way prior to Israel; the core of this may be the ten commandments and the unique concepts of social justice found in the Prophets.
"What kind of monster is God in that traditional belief about Jesus?"
This kind of monster.
To digress - I belive the first time I'd heard of Robert L. Kuhn was when it was alleged he had independently arrived at an hypothesis that became HWA's Spirit in Man doctrine. More recently, I came across a mention that Dr Kuhn denied his "discovery" and gave Herb all the credit.
Any other info on that? I can see the benefit of HWA getting "approval" in the form of independent source. And Dr K's supposed conclusion would be more credible if it had been made before coming to AC.
A few years ago, I came across something Dr Kuhn wrote, this time on finance. In a detailed bio, tales from his Pasadena days were conspicuously missing.
Now I've seen everything -- a theological argument about beer.
Check it out Gavin. As you predicted, the turkey flies.
http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details/vision.org
"" It really all comes down to who you say Jesus is. That's the dividing line. You either are "in" or your are "out".
That's what I have come to love about various literalist Christians and fndamentialists."
Those aren't my words, they are the Bible's, so that's too bad if you don't like it.
The Bible acknowledges the *worship* of other gods and idols, but doesn't speak as they are real. You can worship a plethora of gods and idols. None of them are real. Hence the discussion of a jealous God, hence the discusion of meats sacrificed to idols.
Just because people have worshiped other gods doesn't mean that there *are* other gods, just that people worship them. Make sense? I don't know how to make it any clearer.
If you need something more to worship, I have a tree out back. Any takers?
Several of the posts on this thread illustrate the old saying that, "When you quit believing GOD, you'll believe ANYTHING."
Rating the COG Beers
Tkach's beer tastes great, but is less filling.
United's beer is less filling, but tastes great.
Pack's beer packs a real punch, but Spanky's beer out punches Pack in the middleweight class.
Flurry's beer has the highest alcoholic content of any COG brand.
anonymous said . . .
One of the most important things to understand is that the Passover was a Canaanite festival originally called the "Killing of the Lambs".
The Passover comes right out of Pagan sacrificial ritual.
That means the NT Passover is also a colossal fraud.
Please read the story about Ugarit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugarit
While you are at it, take a serious look at this.
http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/MSmith_BiblicalMonotheism.htm
And this.
http://www.biblicalheritage.org/Bible%20Studies/canaan-gods.htm
So, Yesiree indeedee, the Bible is Canaanite hocus pocus hokum.
Anonymous said...
Dennis is right...
Israel and Judah adapted the religion of the Cannanites.
Anonymous Nobody,
Yes, Israel and Judah adopted the vile practices of the surrounding peoples. That is why God punished them so much! They refused to obey God's laws and observe God's festivals. Just like the goofballs at this blog, they wanted paganism and hocus pocus rather than anything God said in the Bible.
Larry said, “Several of the posts on this thread illustrate the old saying that, when you quit believing GOD, you'll believe ANYTHING."
MY COMMENT – Wrong again, Larry.
First, I have never heard the old saying you quoted. I think you made it up and claim it is an old saying.
What several of the posts on this thread illustrates is that when you free your mind from a false cult that came in Christ’s name and deceived many, you question anything and everything pertaining to the subject matter of God and religion – particularly when the fleecing of the dumb sheep for money occurs.
By the way Larry, you haven’t answered the questions on the other tread. How would you answer the Hammer family? Do you really think they donated that valuable Big Sandy parcel for anything else other than a College? If Joseph Tkach had any integrity, he would give the land value of the money back to the Hammer family that was received by WCG as a result of the Big Sandy campus sale. Don’t you agree, Larry?
Richard
larry said...
Several of the posts on this thread illustrate the old saying that, "When you quit believing GOD, you'll believe ANYTHING."
No, I think it illustrates that when you believe in God, you're capable of believing anything.
That is, anything but the truth and reality of what is and what is only wishful thinking.
Of course no one believes God or gods, no one has ever heard one or seen one and no one has any evidence that any gods exist.
It has nothing to do with believing God, it has to do with whether you believe the men who wrote the books or not.
ICG mostly markets the GTA beer - a lot of fizz, then it goes flat and repeats on you.
CGI and CEM only market lite beers.
And before you taste Weinland beer, check the date on the label!
Were not the sun, moon, and stars set in the sky to provide light, and to demark the days, seasons, and years?
Are we not told to work while it is day, for the night is coming when no man can work?
Doth not even the Preacher say that a man can do no better than to eat and drink, and find satisfaction in his work?
Should we not heed then the words of the monks, that tell us:
"Im Himmel gibt es kein beir, drum muss wir es trinken heir"
Jawohl, mein damen und herren!
VonHowitzer
Richard, you seem to think everything is about money. People do not and did not join the Church because they are worried about money. I don't know what kind of arrangement the Hammers had with the WCG. If it truly was a "donation" without conditions, then the Church is not obligated in any way to reimburse them. Donations are gifts. Once they are out of your hands, they are out of your purview and control. Why does this seem to bother you?
I think I know. Because to you, it IS all about money. God is not part of the equation. You have eliminated God and altruism, and therefore; the money is all that matters. You think everything is fraud. I see the same cynicism in the posts of others on this board. Believe it or not, there are more important things than money.
Lawrence said,
I think I know. Because to you, it IS all about money. God is not part of the equation. You have eliminated God and altruism, and therefore; the money is all that matters..... I see the same cynicism in the posts of others on this board. Believe it or not, there are more important things than money."
Lar...sounds like a run up to taking an offering :)
Larry said, “Richard, you seem to think everything is about money. People do not and did not join the Church because they are worried about money. I don't know what kind of arrangement the Hammers had with the WCG. If it truly was a "donation" without conditions, then the Church is not obligated in any way to reimburse them. Donations are gifts. Once they are out of your hands, they are out of your purview and control. Why does this seem to bother you?
I think I know. Because to you, it IS all about money. God is not part of the equation. You have eliminated God and altruism, and therefore; the money is all that matters. You think everything is fraud. I see the same cynicism in the posts of others on this board. Believe it or not, there are more important things than money.”
MY COMMENT – Wrong again, Larry!
• I already told you in another thread that I have a passion against fraud – massive fraud. And massive fraud usually involves massive financial malfeasance, corporate theft and corruption.
• You refuse to answer the question about the Hammer family. And I know why you refuse. Why does it bother me? Because it is just another example – one of many – where the WCG breached a contract and the faith of its own people. For you see Larry, I heard Mr. Armstrong on several occasion relate the story of how the Big Sandy campus came about. The Hammers gave the land to the WCG to be used for an Ambassador College campus. The Hammers did not donate the parcel for any other purpose Larry. It bothers me because it demonstrates the total lack of integrity and ethics of the WCG. I know you won’t answer the question, but do you really believe the Hammers gave the valuable parcel of land so that many years later the Tkaches could shrink the church and pocket the money received from the Big Sandy sale? Do you really believe that Larry?
Larry, you keep defending a corporate church in which God had nothing to do with in the first place. The WCG was a lie and all about money, and you try to twist it by saying I’m the one all about money? That is BS Larry. Obviously, the words “ethics”, “integrity” and “honesty” mean nothing to you. You are one of the dumb sheep who will believe anything the WCG tells you. Or, it has occurred to me that perhaps you are one of the shepards who helped fleece the membership. Which is it Larry?
Richard
Larry,
"Believe it or not, there are more important things than money."
On this, we are agreed. It is just a crying shame that Armstrong, and the Tkaches, and all the petty, scheming, disastrous little despots who followed on in their footsteps, never believed that themselves.
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