Has Joe Tkach apologized to you for all the garbage the church put you and your family through?
No?
It seems it ain't because he hasn't been trying.
Thus spake the Unelected One recently, commenting on Curtis May's in-house "reconciliation" ministry:
[T]rying to reconcile with former members is probably the least of it because they don't want to be reconciled. We tried and tried hard. We wrote letters to several people, and they write back and say 'stop harassing us.' In the letters we [say we] are sorry if we caused any offense, is there is any way we could reconcile? And the letter comes back 'if you write and harass us again we will get lawyers.' I thought wow, that is the response... so we are very willing to reconcile, but from that end we are just sort of waiting till it just comes to their mind. It's kind of like the old analogy of the dog that gets hit by a car and split open and lying there, and you go down to help the dog but he’s trying to bite your hand, and that’s how it's been with a lot of those folks, although as time goes on some are becoming more and more, uh, willing to at least talk or have some level of friendship.
One of our former pastors, you might remember a guy named Dennis Diehl. Some might remember his name. He went all four years in Pasadena for college, but after he left us he became half a Buddhist then became an Atheist, and I don’t know where he is now, but he just wrote me a letter two weeks ago saying he forgives me for everything so, uh... yeah, so I wrote back and said I am so happy then we can be reconciled, kinda be like we can be friends in college again, and anything I can do you know I am willing to do, so its happening but its the merest trickle.
Speaking only for myself, at no stage in all the years since I left WCG/GCI, including those before AW came along, has anyone in that church's ministry bothered to initiate contact, let alone apologize. Any "reconciliation" attempt came from my initiative (I attended a couple of services in Wellington around the time the New Covenant teachings were introduced.)
Interesting to see the mention of Dennis, though I'm not sure Joe quite represented him correctly. Notice though who made the approach.
Speaking at the same gathering of client ministers in Canada, Joe played the YouTube item below to much amusement. Who'd have thunked it!
So, did you get one of those letters from Joe or his underlings?
Related link: Dennis' new (?) website
91 comments:
Would anybody on this board actually accept an apology from Joe Tkach, Jr. if it were offered?
An apology, Larry, is offered regardless of its reception. An apology is offered because it is the right thing to do. Offering an apology is not contingent on the likelihood of it being graciously accepted.
How can you be a Christian and not know that?
Gavin, I do know that.
Doesn't sound to me though, like you believe an apology would be "graciously accepted".
Also I believe in the concept of "forgiven but accountable". I can accept a sincere, heart-felt and humble apology from the leadership but they must understand that does not mean I will be seeking membership in the GCI anytime soon. Simply, that ship has sailed.
....It's kind of like the old analogy of the dog that gets hit by a car and split open and lying there, and you go down to help the dog but he’s trying to bite your hand, and that’s how it's been with a lot of those folks.....
What an apt if not almost Freudian slip of an analogy!
First thing that came to my mind was "who was driving the car?"
Its a bit like the drunk driver who pleads innocence because he was drunk and didn't know what he was doing!
I'd bite the driver too.
Larry, let me ask you, based on Joe's words... do you think Dennis would have appreciated an apology from Joe?
A lot of folk have moved on, but still bear the scars. It's understandable if a lot of them might reject an apology.
But some would gladly receive one, and it would help in their healing process. It doesn't mean they would return to WCG/GCI, but it could remove a lot of hurt. Again, it's the right thing to do.
And then there's the fact that Joe says "we" tried to apologize - to "several" people.
Who is among the "several"? Anyone here?
AW is one of the prime hangouts of former members online. Can Joe have really "tried and tried" and yet no-one here knows about it?
Let's see.
Joe said that? "A guy named...?" How rude. Wow... Here is the orginal "with warm respect" exchange. I would not have sent this if I wasn't surprised at his flippancy to Curtis about my sincere need to clear my books.
"Dear Joe,
LIfe is too short to refuse to grow to levels of being that are better for the soul and spirit. I have always liked thinking we are a spirit trapped in a limited five sensed carbon based wetsuit, until some time when we can outgrow it, drop the filters and see what all there really is to see. That is my hope at least. But anger, resentment, regret and a long list of things we wish had not been or paths we wish we had or had not taken doesn't serve anyone. All we have is now and when we get to the future, it will just be another now anyway.
Some saint said...."All will be well, all shall be well and all that is shall be well" Not very profound but encouraging..
Den"
His response:
"Dear Dennis,
I can't tell you how moved and grateful I was to read your email. Your words were healing on so many levels, and I am especially thankful that we can again find footing for our long friendship and the mutual respect that we have always shared in our heart of hearts. We all offend in ways we don't even know, but the balm of forgiveness and love heals and restores. Thank you for your words and courage and the love that motivated them.
With warm respect,
Joe"
I have endeavored to not be on AW as part of self healing as well as going through personal emotional changes of late that have left me 80 lbs lighter. Most intentional but the last due to how well sometimes I don't process reality.
Thank you to all who have been sincere friends and encouraging. I forgave for my sake, not Joes.
Den
Actually, I see my note to him is the second one to which he never responded. I must not have kept my original apology. He has that...
Don't kid yourselves. I was terminated and told to call the personal office for details, by Dan Rogers at 9 PM one evening out of the blue. After I hung up, not one WCG minister or administrator every called or contacted me again unless I did first out of necessity.
I've found it ironic, to say the least, that I, former member and now atheist, have been the one to initiate reconciliation with my former "brethren" (who are all still devout believers of one stripe or another) in almost every case. As far as apologies go, I've noticed that many people find the idea of them degrading. Funny thing is, the few times in my life when someone else has sincerely apologized to me, it has melted my heart and raised that individual in my estimation.
Joe Tkach's reaction to Dennis' forgiveness is stunning in its narcissism. I read nothing in his comments to suggest that he seized the opportunity to make things right with Dennis, whom he marginalizes by describing him as "a former minister who became half a Buddhist and now an atheist." The tone is summed up by his comment that instances of forgiveness are "trickling in," in which the implied subject is still Tkach and his church, around which former members and the rest of the world revolve.
Jesus puts the burden of forgiveness on the sinned against believer, requiring him/her to forgive his brother/sister seventy times seven. Oddly, he doesn't (at least in the scriptures that made the cut) put such a heavy burden on the offending believer. One "sorry about that" and he's off the hook, at least where fellow believers are concerned. Tkach seems to have accepted that phone calls and letters, once rejected, are sufficient (after all, he wouldn't want to be sued, would he?). If Tkach's comments about Dennis are indicative of his remorse, then I'm not surprised that his letters and phone calls didn't melt any hearts.
I see Joe is still suffering from delusions of grandeur...that's about all I can say...except...no, I didn't receive any apologies. However, I might be able to dig up some letters quite to the contrary!! Especially over the issue at AU at the time...when they weren't allowing students to attend "dissident" (undefined) churches under the threat of expulsion. This was TOTALLY out of line with the accreditation policies. I circulated a petition...with over 1000 signatures and submitted it along with several other docs to the accreditation board...I filed a grievance with all the required documentation, including letters from Joe and company. Well, that generated some response to me, but believe me, it wasn't an apology. No matter what the students believed, they should have been free to worship where they chose to worship. In a subsequent WorldWide News, it was written that NO ONE had submitted a formal grievance with the accreditation board. I just laughed because they knew darned well that I had!!
Thanks for the walk down memory lane...these guys are really a joke!!
Sue
Gavin, answer to your question....I don't know.
Over the years, I have apologized to many people for many things. But, I always knew exactly who I was apologizing to, and what I was apologizing for.
He's lying. Show me the letters, Joe. Then I'll believe you, or at least believe this statement.
But where is your apology to me? And why did you write letters to some but not others? What a hypocrite.
The ONLY moves toward reconciliation that I heard of while attending (left back in 2005) were racial. Please don't get me wrong, I think that was needed but given the whole membership needed some form of reconciliation I thought the focus on the racial aspect was a bit disingenuous.
There were movements towards giving women more automony but no appologies made for the years of beating subservience into them. Nothing that said that we were wrong when we discounted your intelligence and contributions in the light of what men do.
There was certainly no appologies for the family break ups, for the years of barriers between extended families over holy days and clean & unclean meats. Nevermind about all the divorced folks.
There were no appologies to the non-believing spouses who were often alienated from the person to whom they were supposed to be the closest plus their children if the believing spouse had the upper hand in the spirituality sector.
There were no appologies to those raised to be "different" for the suffering this caused. And before someone jumps in there about morality, I'm not talking about that. You can get lessons on morality in any mainstream protestant group. I'm talking about the inability to interact with your peer group and the social stagnation. BTW, some of those so called "worldly" teens were more Godly than some of the ones in the church.
There was no appology for the poverty caused by tithing.
I could go on.
Sorry, this one sticks in my gut a little.
BULL.
I contacted Tkach *myself* many years ago. He didn't offer much, if any, of an apology, as I remember. And then after I responded he said basically "there's no point in continuing this discussion, go away".
That's when I realized he had no intention of ever making things right or reconciling.
BULL!!!!!
I'm much closer to forgiving the guy than I was, but I'm never going to forget that, and frannkly hearing this shows he hasn't changed at all.
Hilarious video! Loved it!
Dill Weed
I might accept an apology from Joe Tkach Jr. if he would live up to his word, offer transparency, step down, and put in place something other than a 'dummy board'.
Really, I want no big things from him, just the simple basics which he promised but has not delivered.
Could it be that the "Work" has distracted him from fulfilling those simple promises? I doubt it, since he only works part time and has a huge financial stake in the "forgetting" of those promises.
Seems like he's given a smoke screen of "being too busy to notice" his broken promises, or, "we're very busy with Jesus now, so we have no time to notice" his broken promises.
All that while selling off assets, working part-time, traveling around the world, and playing on the golf course outside of his front door.
So far, Joey Jr has shown himself to be a total sleazebag.
And a liar.
And a cheat.
I'm aware that some who still suckle upon his man-boobs think that any criticism of Joey comes from being bitter about him and his daddy straying from the "truth" that HWA once preached.
But, the "Plain Truth" is that I really don't give a hoot about that.
My issue with Jr. is that Jr. is a lying schmuck.
I resigned in '92 when JWT Sr was in command. I have been to this day unapproached by anyone in an official capacity in the WCG/GCI.
I was asked to resign by Victor Kubik who later was himself asked to resign. It's funny.
Funny also was the time not too far back when a party was held in my area to celebrate the founding of the first WCG congregation in this state. One of the early pastors was there along with the first deacon, a longtime friend of mine. The three of us were at one time in the good graces of the WCG.
The former pastor is now with one of the bigger spin-offs, the deacon started up his own little church, and I am finally religion-free. And so goes the history of religion in America.
I do remember someone sending me a copy of a public apology from JWT Jr which appeared in the PT. It didn't do anything for me.
The problem is one of perspective. Joe Jr. believes he is apologizing for what the WCG was before he systematically destroyed the organization. I believe that most people, especially those who remain faithful to the doctrines of the Church prior to the Tkachs, believe he really should be apologizing for destroying the organization.
In any event, the folks who are sore about what the WCG taught them really could care less about an apology from Joe Jr. In their minds, they believe the real source was Mr. Armstrong. As for those who are faithful to the old doctrines, they would prefer that Joe Jr. acknowledge the things he actually did, like lie to them about changes that were coming, or deceiving the folks in every manner he could, or by looting the church coffers.
Let's be honest, theres nothing sincere about any apology from Joe Jr. He doesn't even get the premise for an apology.
(By the way, I am still faithful to the doctrines of the Church, and do not need an apology from Joe Jr.) If God allowed the organization to be destroyed, then so be it. It had become a mixing pot of every wind of doctrine anyway. The proof is in the number of off shoots and their doctrines. Very few groups remain true to the doctrines, especially the doctrine and beleif that God is in control and will ultimately resolve things to His will.
Unfortunately for those who no longer believe in those doctrines, they believe that they wasted a lot of time and money during the years they were a part of it. It is no wonder they are bitter.
Honestly? I really don't care. An apology actually changes nothing. I'm not seeking one and frankly never think about it.
Lochinvar
No we got a call from one of the deacons who was a friend of mind and our family was on their contact list.
That was it. Certainly nothing from Junior; and the church literature suddenly stopped comming since we were no longer paying into the machine.
The little cartoon character is talking about the false Catholic (and Protestant) teaching that people will be tormented forever in hell fire by Satan because of their relatively short seventy-year life of sinning.
As HWA pointed out, the hopelessly wicked will actually just be quickly burned up and become ashes. They will simply cease to exist to prevent them from causing any more suffering for themselves and others for all eternity.
As for why some people might ultimately have to be snuffed out, well, maybe it is because they are like the little unfaithful cartoon character who won't stop spouting perverseness and yet thinks he is so clever.
Ummmm, Joe & Co. erred, and then they whine about no one wanting to be "reconciled"?
Excuse me, Joe, but you stepped out of the room, so stop complaining about no one else wanting to step out with you. If you truly wanted reconciliation you would come back in and apologize. You would not keep trying to lure others out there with you.
What was Joe apologizing for, the HWA era church, or the Tkach era or present times? Frankly it sounds like Congress apologizing for slavery in colonial America. It's like slapping a bandaid on a gunshot wound
that video is great!
it clearly shows the confusion of the mainstream 'christian' teaching!
roflol
Joe Tkach apology. Talk is cheap,send my money back then perhaps we can talk.
The type of apology that I could accept would be Herbert W. Armstrong coming back to life, admitting that he perpetrated the most horrible of toxic scams, and sincerely apologizing for any and all damage which he had done in my life. I would graciously accept that apology, but having learned my lesson well, would not be looking to him or his organization for any spiritual or other advice.
I see Joe Jr in a different way from the way most others here do. If I ran into him later on in the day, I'd be shaking hands with a friend from many years ago, one who at least tried to do the right thing when faced with a difficult or even impossible situation. Still, he would be on probation with me until I was able to determine his level of sincerity, and I would, once again, not be looking to him for any spiritual guidance.
Dennis, just before he ceased contributing here, had mentioned on another blog that he had arranged for therapy/counselling. We all know that Dennis has been tireless in trying to help anyone who suffered through a WCG experience, even though he was hurting deep inside himself. I'd like to suggest that we all remember him in our prayers, or positive thoughts. That he would initiate contact with Joe Tkach tells me that he is working some sort of healing program. That is an example we might all do well to ponder.
BB
I stayed in WCG until the (my?) bitter end... around 1996/1997. I can only say that I found JT Jr's leadership to be more coercing, more stifling, more condescending, more unabashedly (and here I have the old person's noun disease, but one comment of his in particular is illustrative "Now that you are a real Christian, you should be willing to give MORE than a tithe" - not word-for-word, mind you, but that was the gist) - more of all of that than I ever saw in WCG under HWA, and that was with all the sexual goings-on and spritual and emotional abuse of members by ministers under the guidance of HWA.
To my way of thinking, and this is just my own personal opinion - I think the opinion of others still with him may differ - he wants to keep around only enough people to finance his self-serving try for fame and fortune in the world of religion and churchiness.
Apology from JT? I don't need no stinkin' apology.
A true apology never says, "if...".
"In the letters we [say we] are sorry if we caused any offense, is there is any way we could reconcile?"
That alone tells you that he is only going through some motions that may appear pious. I've received a few of these types as well, but not that one from the WCG (thank God for that).
I am truly thankful over the entire learning experience, which due to so much pain, has resulted in my total freedom from the worship of men and from my placing men between God and myself.
In the end, I am thankful more than bitter, even at this late date.
Nadine
Thank you BB for your kind comments. I have to say that I am going through a more personally difficult time now than in any other in my past, church nothwithstanding. I have been to counseling on relationship isses and also moving one from the past. I was never real good with boundries and rules that seemed arbitrary to me or unjust or just plain made up. This has hurt me at times as it has now. It is a two edged sword.
I am not half buddhist. I enjoy buddhist or taoist thought but would not say I am this or that. I am agnostic not atheistic and respectful of what spirit, consciousness and quantum physics might hold in store without all the religion.
I am a fan of Eckhart Tolle who seems to know how it is and is yoda incarnate....for now.
I wrestle with anxiety and depression and a sense of personal failure and find being open and honest therapeutic in some way.
We are all just folks in my experience and I don't pretend to be anything but just a guy and just plain folks.
Joe did not offer to help me in anyway whatsoever as he seemed to indicate. His letter to me does not match his tone to Curtis. If he was so desireous to show the ministers that some contact him, why did he not read my email of forgiveness of him verbatim and let me speak for me... I don't particularly like being represented to the ministry as I read Joe did. Makes me sound like some schmuck that used to hang out in wcg instead of 30 years, 5 states, 14 congregations and raising around 50+ million for the gang in those years of teaching tithing to thousands....Not to mention being in school together.
Oh well, I swore to forget it and this has brought it back to me again.
Apology from JT? He needs something from you. I would say it would be a safe bet to utter the word MONEY as to the reason!
These guys created a toxic mess and expected the government to clean up the mess.
Good on you Dennis, that's one more bad yesteryear thing put to rest.
Your conscience should be pretty clear by now.
Who do you see in a mirror, Dennis?
Best wishes, Dennis, hangeth in there.
Bill L. writes:
Hey, apologies are cheap. How about reparations??
May I suggest a prorata return of donations from the huge reservoir of booty from the WCG fire sale.
Sort of like a bankruptcy, where you get 6 cents on the dollar or something. This would improve my attitude towards Joey tremendously.
"So, did you get one of those letters from Joe or his underlings?"
Nope. They never even called to find out why we'd stopped attending services. As far as the church was concerned, we just dropped off the map.
In retrospect, that's probably a good thing, though; you will note that Junior does not say what the CONTENTS of the harrassment letters were; he just makes it seem as though the recipients are overreacting, without offering up EXACTLY what was said. I wonder why that is?
Additionally, I've said often enough, in more than one venue, that the ORM needs to stop apologizing to people it never offended, who were never members of the church, and start apologizing to some of the people they DID discriminate against (heavily), including persons with disabilities.
I haven't gotten a letter yet......
I would just like to apologize to Joseph Tkach, Jr. for anything I have done which might have offended him or hurt him in any way.
Gavin said, “Has Joe Tkach apologized to you for all the garbage the church put you and your family through?”
MY COMMENT – Well, I came home from a miserable day in my world, and I needed a good laugh. Sure enough, Gavin you have provided it for me.
Thanks Gavin. That was really funny. Yeah right, and pigs fly!
Richard
The little multi-multimillionaire, Little Joey Tkach said, “One of our former pastors, you might remember a guy named Dennis Diehl. Some might remember his name. He went all four years in Pasadena for college, but after he left us he became half a Buddhist then became an Atheist, and I don’t know where he is now, but he just wrote me a letter two weeks ago saying he forgives me for everything so, uh... yeah, so I wrote back and said I am so happy then we can be reconciled, kinda be like we can be friends in college again, and anything I can do you know I am willing to do, so its happening but its the merest trickle.”
MY COMMENT – Well, since little Joey Tkach said, “and anything I can do you know I am willing to do”, how about putting his money (oooops, I mean our parents’ tithe money) where his mouth is by giving Dennis Diehl a retirement annuity as a show of his reconciliation.
Talk is cheap, action speaks louder than words. Here is a chance for little Joey Tkach to show us God’s way is give, and truly be reconciled with one of the WCG former Pastors.
Gavin, perhaps you can do one of your famous public opinion polls, " Should Joe Tkach give Dennis Diehl a retirement annuity to match his words?"
Richard
For me only: I don't want an apology from Jr. He never did a damned thing to me. In fact, when he put out credit card slips for offerings, it inspired me to say "f" it, I'm done with this. So in a way, the bearded bastard who saw the WCG as a way out of his cube and wage-slavedom, helped me out of armstrongism.
For Dennis: I have briefly talked to you over the phone, and hope to do so again sometime; You are a good soul. Fret not.
I haven't posted much in recent months because I have largely run out of my stock of giving a rat's A$$, however...Gavin provides a service that cannot be denied or under-rated.
When set against the background of Joe Tkach's behaviour, any apology from him has to be insincere and meaningless.
He secretly met with the people from Azuzu Pacific, who influenced him into believing that WCG was a dangerous cult. He then brainwashed his weak and gullible father into adopting Protestant theology, whatever that is!
His father in turn, drip fed the spiritual poison into the veins of WCG, and blatantly lied about his intentions to change the doctrines of the church. Doctrines, I may add, which all the ministers claimed they had proven to be true, and encouraged the laity to follow on peril of damnation.
After the death of Joe senior, Joe junior repudiated all that he once held to be true. Branded HWA a false prophet, but, amazingly, never relinquished the money and physical assets HWA left for the benefit of the members. On the contrary, he subsequently sold the assets and pocketed the money. What hypocrisy!
Now he wants sensible people to believe that he is sorry. What a laugh! If he is truly sorry, let him step down from his exalted position of vanity and greed, an may be - just may be - I might believe him!
I don't understand why everyone here has such a hard time accepting Joseph Tkach Junior's apology. He says he is sorry. I believe him. He is really, truly very sincerely sorry.
Over on the WCG/GCI site is a discussion of the Office of Reconciliation Ministries. The principles are outlined:
1. Confession. Acknowledge oppression has existed.
2. Repentance. Live in a loving way.
3. Reconciliation.
4. Restitution. Pay back things which were taken.
Do you think that fourth point will be a deal breaker?
My concern (expressed also by John Morgan in "Flying Free")is that there was never any apology to those like Richard Plache, Charles Hunting, etc., who first expressed the need for the changes later made by the Tkaches, nor to David Robinson, who first exposed the Armstrongs.
To me this continues to show that the WCG/GIC is still not rid of HWA, as the main advertising man for their corporation.
What good is an apology? The bottom line is, Joe Jr. took all the assets.
The assets of WCG were contributed over a period of years for the purpose of propagating a certain set of beliefs. We stupidly went along with a "one man rule" setup because we believed Mr. Armstrong was God's representative on earth. When Armstrong died, Tkach Sr. and then Tkach Jr. inherited his "one man rule" powers - and all the assets. Did they have a right to these assets? Legally - yes. Morally - no.
The Tkach's took our assets, which were donated to propagate a certain set of beliefs, and used them to propagate a diametrically opposed set of beliefs. And to enrich themselves and their cronies, as they paid themselves salaries that could not be supported by current contributions, but could be paid by selling off assets. And they continue to pay themselves salaries from the proceeds of asset sales, even today.
Apology? Mere words. The only apology that would count would be to pay back the money. Which is impossible, because it is already spent. They can no sooner pay back the money than Bernie Madoff can pay back his. But, like Bernie, they could pay back in part. But they won't. Because they're successful criminals and there is nothing we can do about it.
The Skeptic
Yes, I have seen the letters, been in the audience as was even personally apologized to by Greg Albrecht when he was a part of WCG/CGI.
I'm not too sure the stealing of the church's assets to preach a different belief is legal.
The assets came from people of doctrine set "A" to preach and defend that set of doctrines.
For the assets to become the property of what amounts to a different church altogether, doctrine set "B", doesn't sound legal to me.
The only way it could have been legal was if no one did anything to stop it. No one did anything and now it's too late (statute of limitations).
It should have only become "legal" after it was tried in court with all assets frozen until after the court's decision.
Yes, it could have dragged on for years and cost a fortune - but, in the meantime, the assets would still be there with no one being able to touch them.
Could it have been done? Probably not, people don't stick together very well if it is costing them money.
Could the case have been won?
We'll never know.
Skeptic, I am just astonished at how EVERYTHING seems to be about money with you. And, you are not alone here. What is it about the word "donation" that you do not understand?
Observer also seems to believe that some kind of "restitution" is in order. Ain't happenin' folks. And besides, what amount of money would suffice? $2000? $10,000? $500,000? Good grief! And, for what exactly?
Mary Lane, I knew David Robinson personally. I do not and would not believe ANYTHING that guy ever said about anyone. Good advice for you too.
I can see where the issue of apology or reconciliation would be a very complicated topic.
Some people would appreciate an apology, while others would greet the very prospect of one with hostility.
Then, there is "Apologize for what, or for whom?" Some want an apology from Armstrong about the evils visited upon us all through HWA's toxic and overbearing religious system. Yet, some thrived upon these toxic evils, and apparently want an apology from the Tkaches for the abandonment of the so-called 18 restored truths!
I personally don't want anything financial from any of these groups. But, some want reparations, ie returned tithes and offerings, while others want the assets turned over to those who are perpetuating the doctrines which produced the assets.
At the end of the day, there really is no equitable solution to the Armstrong problem. More than once, I've caught myself wishing that HWA's parents had had available some high quality condoms with very potent spermicidal jelly, but what happened has happened. My prayers would be that everyone effected could find healing for our shared debacle. The Jews certainly suffered much more horrendous attrocities under Hitler, and have provided an excellent model for recovery from genocidal megalomaniacs.
Tribulation? Actually, it ended for some of us in 1975, and for others on the day that HWA died.
BB
"Do you think that fourth point will be a deal breaker?"
A deal breaker? They haven't even come close to the first three, yet!
Yes, I have seen the letters, been in the audience as was even personally apologized to by Greg Albrecht when he was a part of WCG/CGI.
So if you stayed in the organization, you were apologized to. And if you'd had your fill and left, then too bad that you didn't stick around to receive it.
Or did I somehow misunderstand?
Skeptic said:
"The only apology that would count would be to pay back the money. Which would be impossible because the money is already spent".
And that is exactly what Tkach would have you believe.
Happily there is a word that friend John Trechak told us about years ago in this very context.
FUNGIBLE. One dollar is as good as another.
❝Anonymous said...
The little cartoon character is talking about the false Catholic (and Protestant) teaching that people will be tormented forever in hell fire by Satan because of their relatively short seventy-year life of sinning.
As HWA pointed out, the hopelessly wicked will actually just be quickly burned up and become ashes. They will simply cease to exist to prevent them from causing any more suffering for themselves and others for all eternity.
As for why some people might ultimately have to be snuffed out, well, maybe it is because they are like the little unfaithful cartoon character who won't stop spouting perverseness and yet thinks he is so clever.❞
And the fear of being burned up is supposed to make me want to love Jesus? That's JUST as COERCIVE as the Hell belief! Ever thought of getting a job as a vote counter in Iran?
In your picture of God, God is so vindictive, he's gonna resurrect people so he can kill them a 2nd time! ESPECIALLY THOSE WITH WITH A WITTY SENSE OF HUMOR!
You gotta stop listening those HWA cassette tape worms in your head.
Do not underestimate the difficulty of making a sincere apology. I recall a scene from the movie "Born on the Fourth of July" when Ron Kovic went to apologize to the parents of a fellow soldier that he accidentally killed in battle. Very painful to watch.
Think how difficult it must be if you were once a WCG pastor and you broke up a family because of the D&R ruling -- because you thought it was right. To call up the members of that devastated family and apologize would be one of the most wrenching personal actions in the world. Some of these men, I would guess, for this reason alone want Armstrongism to be true. Those of us who are not in this category should be glad.
I believe that most of us cannot expect an apology. One of the last things that will ever die in the WCG/GCI or any splinter group will be the intense awareness of caste. Dennis Diehl in the Armstrongite reality will always be more important than any lay member. The theorem is a simple one: Any ordained person is more important than any unordained person. Then, of course, there is the hierarchy among the ordained. My guess is that JoeJr will only approach the former leaders of Armstrongism - lay members be hanged.
Also, JoeJr will only apologize to those who were recipients of revenues from tithing, not those who were sources of revenues. That is another rule that makes distinct who is important and who is not.
If you were just a lay member and you are still waiting for someone to express some word of concern, you can explain reality quite easily by remembering that Dennis Diehl is important and you are not.
If you were an Armstrongite, you know this is true and have experienced it. The thing to wonder at is that after all the reformations and transformations and whatever, the caste system is still thriving and extends itself across organizational lines.
-- Neo
Larry said, “Skeptic, I am just astonished at how EVERYTHING seems to be about money with you. And, you are not alone here. What is it about the word "donation" that you do not understand?”
MY COMMENT – And Larry, what is it about the word “extortion” - under threat of eternal lake of fire damnation - do you not understand?
Richard
Larry, advice from you is an exercise in contrariness. If it's advice you give, doing the opposite will likely be beneficial.
larry said...
>>Skeptic, I am just astonished at how EVERYTHING seems to be about money with you. And, you are not alone here.<<
I was almost tempted to say that you are defending the indefensible, but since you have not advanced any argument to show that Joe junior was justified in selling WCG's assets and pocketing the money, I won't.
All you have done is presented some very lamed assertions, and compounded them by offering advice to people who didn't ask for it.
However, if you are here to defend Joe's behaviour, the question you need to answer is, would Joe junior be justified in accepting the 30 pieces of silver Judas got for betraying Jesus, and using them to live comfortably? For Joe considers HWA to be a false prophet, and the doctrines he taught be a betrayal of the teachings of Christ, so in Joe's eyes HWA was no different from Judas! So why was Joe willing to accept the asset left by a false prophet and and betrayer of Christ?
Any man of integrity would have rejected them as the fruits of wickedness.
I have to agree with Neo here. In the caste system of the adventist COGs, the "ordained" man(forget women)has a bigger mouth, than the unordained man!=)and draws a much bigger can of worms
Larry asked,
"What is it about the word "donation" that you do not u
understand?"
Well, if I donate money to the American Red Cross, I don't expect them to have a change of leadership and start using my money to support the Taliban.
Just sayin'
The Skeptic
Richard said,
"MY COMMENT – And Larry, what is it about the word “extortion” - under threat of eternal lake of fire damnation - do you not understand?"
Extortion?! Richard, do you even have any idea how silly you sound?
From what is being said or known up to now, it seems to me that Joseph Tkach Jr and WCG/CGI HQ must be afraid that a church split is coming soon. After all, just the issue of the name change has caused alot of concern or anxiety or anger, for example. I'll bet that forces are lining up now internally within WCG/CGI that will finally reveal who in WCG/CGI is really sincere and actually making progress in reaching out to a larger world out there, and who is just faking it.
"What is it about the word "donation" that you do not understand?"
What is it about consistently using Acts 5:1-11, followed immediately by Romans 6:23 when taking up Holy Day offerings, in offertory messages, and for other "special offerings" that you do not understand is the ANTITHESIS of free will and "donation" Larry?
You would tell us that our parents gave 30%+ of their income some years, out of their own free will, Larry.
What you consistently refuse to accept was the fact that THEIR FREE WILL WAS BROKEN.
For Larry.
There's two things I wonder about.
One: I wonder how this whole mess started by HWA would have turned out, if the ministry (from the very beginning) could have somehow been required to follow the apostle Paul's example of working at a job and providing their own living, in order to show their sincerety of dedication and genuiness of their calling as a minister.
Two: I wonder who all we would have seen go into the ministry, and remain there, under that standard that was provided by Paul.
And I realize it's just trivial thinking, and it's probably neither here nor there, so to speak.
It's just two things I wonder.
Yes extortion, Larry.
It would have been free will donations if it were not for the following facts:
Not paying tithes to HWA was robbing God. Robbing God gets you thrown into the lake of fire.
Not coughing up "free-will" offerings for HWA on holy days was robbing God. Robbing God gets you thrown into the lake of fire.
Not donating money to HWA for the building fund was robbing God. Robbing God gets you thrown into the lake of fire.
Not giving money to HWA for "special" offerings because the work was in dire need was robbing God. Robbing God gets you thrown into the lake of fire.
Not doing any one of the above gets you thrown out of God's (HWA's) church and disfellowshipped which gets you thrown into the lake of fire.
Yes, "extortion" is the right word, Larry.
Larry, Richard does not sound silly at all.
If Larry (or anyone else) doesn't want to click on the link I have provided to Pam Dewey's website, here are just a few of the relevant extracts:
January 23, 1945
Where are we, now, in the prophetic unfolding of God's PLAN? We are already IN the very crisis at the close of this age, spoken of by Daniel the prophet. We are in that period portrayed by the four Horsemen of the Apocalypse—of the Book of Revelation. Jesus explained these in His Olivet prophecy (Mat. 24). The false prophets representing a false, counterfeit Christ, have appeared. We are now in the midst of the final age-end WORLD-WAR—nation against nation; kingdom against kingdom! We are in the beginning of the famine and pestilence to follow in the wake of world-war!
This year we hope, God willing, to add super-power 50,000-watt WHAS, Louisville, and KWKH, Shreveport, and a New York station! Expenses are mounting past $1,000 weekly. So PRAY! Respond, by return AIRMAIL with the largest offering you can. It's URGENT! We can't falter! God bless you for standing by me!
April 5, 1945
ALSO I MUST TELL YOU WE HAVE RUN ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS SHORT OF REGULAR EXPENSES THE PAST THREE OR FOUR WEEKS. Even to keep the regular established work going, we MUST now have a quick, liberal response from our faithful co-workers! It is our solemn responsibility before God, laid on us by HIM! We must not fail Him! Whether you can only send a dollar, or are able to send $50, $100., or $1,000 for the work -- or a larger sum for the Mexican station —I know you'll send AT ONCE the largest amount you can, and GOD BLESS YOU for your loyalty and sacrifice for the GREATEST WORK ON EARTH!
August 23, 1945
I have sufficient faith in God to believe this BULLETIN will be read by someone—perhaps only ONE—who has the ability, if God makes the heart willing, to supply for this purpose a sum of between one and two hundred thousand dollars.
And perhaps one or two others able to put in $35,000 to $50,000. I believe there will be a few more who can manage to place at our disposal from $1,000 to $5,000. There are, I'm sure, still more who can, if willing, find a way to contribute sums of $100, $250, or $500. And this unprecedented great and glorious opportunity will be realized, I know ONLY if each one who has ability to supply such sums does so, to the very LIMIT of his ability. A very large portion of our dear Co-Workers are poor people who are able to give only the "widow's mite." To raise any such sum as a quarter million dollars means, undoubtedly, that some one, or two, or three persons of large ability must make this possible, or the opportunity God has opened must fail. Let us pray as never before that any one, or small FEW, of such ability will not fail our God in this crisis hour of earth's history! I might mention that I have every faith, based upon the facts as I know them, that every dime of the original investment could be retired within some two years or less—but that is a matter for private explanation. As mentioned above, Dr. Brinkley, with exactly the same power, did take a net profit of $500,000 a year. I am not personally interested in any manner whatsoever in establishing this as a commercial enterprise for the purpose of making profits, however—but solely as a POWER FOR GOD, and sending forth HIS MESSAGE with the LOUD VOICE His prophecies say it is yet to go.
He was begging for widows' mites, so he could net half a million dollars in 1945?!?! That would have been an exorbitant amount of money, at that time, and in that economy.
I had to stop at that point, it's just too sick-making. But the rest of the letters, all the way up to 1970 (two years prior to the start of the failure of the "1975 in Prophecy" timeline), may be read here.
Still think those were "donations" Larry? And the strident language of the members' and coworkers' letters became even more demanding, during the "get the church back on TRACK" era of the 1980s.
Yes, PH, those are and were still donations.
No one was ever threatened, forced, or coerced into sending any money to anyone at any time. I know this will be a stretch for you...but, how about letting God handle it? Seems like He is quite capable.
Larry, BULL.
I was told multiple times that if I did not put something in the offering basket, I was threatening my eternal life, or at the very least my ability to survive the tribulation.
I'm sorry if I'm getting a little tweaked here, Gavin, but I am. Larry, GROW THE HELL UP. I have a few other words for you as well, but I may have to put them on my own blog, because Gavin has much more of a sense of decorum in these things than I do. But I will say this much - anyone who agrees with you has a screw loose, and you most definitely have an entire bin full falling out. I wish you'd just go crawl back under your rock, because you sure as whatever aren't contributing anything useful here.
Now I have told you that yes, someone was indeed threatened if they did not give money. What are you going to do about it now? Continue your metal gymnastics that amount to twitching your scrawny, underdeveloped arms and yelling "one hundred, one hundred one", or are you actually going to freaking admit you're wrong for a change?
Larry said,
"how about letting God handle it? Seems like He is quite capable."
Quite right, Larry. God has done a terrific job handling the breakup and transmogrification of WCG. Isn't that obvious to all?
The Skeptic
"I know this will be a stretch for you...but, how about letting God handle it? Seems like He is quite capable."
There is no god, Larry. Want to know where I learned that?
At the hands of the church.
Skeptic, One should reserve judgement. What sometimes appears to be a disaster in the present turns out to be a great victory from the perspective of a future historian. God can see further down the road than any of us.
Russell, I guess I won't be on your Christmas list this year. Your post is a clear indication of who the grown-up is here. And yes, Gavin does maintain decorum.
PH,...Your belief or non-belief does not alter the truth one whit.
You're funny, Larry. Thanks for the laugh.
Of course, and I missed it the first time, Larry went right for the ad hominem and didn't actually answer the question.
What of it, Larry?
"Of course, and I missed it the first time, Larry went right for the ad hominem and didn't actually answer the question."
Ministry evades difficult questions that way. They always have, and apparently, they always will.
Does Junior know what you post here Larry? I notice you only tend to pop up on the threads that criticize him (and the other criminals still in charge of the organization) the most.
You keep denying that you're a member of the ministry (which I still refuse to believe), but I strongly suspect the ministry, if you are in fact, NOT a member of same, has "encouraged" you to come here and actively continue the emotional abuse and victim-blaming of ex-members that you have consistently displayed, since you first showed up here.
Keep it up, Larry, you're more instructive than you realize, as to how much the church really HAS NOT changed, in any way, shape or form, whatsoever.....Only the window dressing has been altered, at the heart, GCI is STILL a closed, high-demand religious group that utilizes oppressive thought-reform techniques. And you, Larry, are living proof of that, deny it as you may.
Sorry PH, I appreciate the compliment, but as I have repeatedly told you, I am not ordained.
I am just here to serve as a counterweight for all the atheists who seem to have taken over this board. I do not believe in personal attacks, and as you have noticed, I do not respond in kind to those who attack me. My experience is that personal attacks generally prove the immaturity of those making them.
And you STILL HAVEN'T ANSWERED THE QUESTION.
What about it, Larry? No answer?
Russell, okaaayyy, the question....
Am I going to admit I was wrong? No.
And that speaks for itself, because I proved you wrong. If you won't admit it, it doesn't change facts. However, people with your religious bent are known to be fact-averse, and you just proved yourself to be no exception.
PROVED.
Pride goeth before a fall, and you have a long way to fall, apparently.
Believe it or not, Larry, you do serve a purpose. Every time I talk to you, I'm reminded of what I left, and very glad that I'm no longer involved in it. You are a very effective light for your God.
Too bad your God is not one of goodness.
Bye. And for pete's sake, find yourself a book on logic and read it. You obviously have no natural talent...
Game OVER. Now shake hands and we'll see you both at the next tournament on the circuit
Please note that I forgave Joe and WCG for my own sake and keep processing my experience in a positive way for my own good.
NOTHING in Joe's response was any kind of apology or recognition of having done anything wrong or agonizingly disruptive to human hope, dreams and convictions, true or false.
He also made no statements on helping in anyway he could.
"Dear Dennis,
I can't tell you how moved and grateful I was to read your email. Your words were healing on so many levels, and I am especially thankful that we can again find footing for our long friendship and the mutual respect that we have always shared in our heart of hearts. We all offend in ways we don't even know, but the balm of forgiveness and love heals and restores. Thank you for your words and courage and the love that motivated them.
With warm respect,
Joe"
Hi Dennis,
Just a few words here.
In my 'post-True Church life', I entangled my brain in various teachings that promised to deliver ultimate healing, and various other 'ultimate' this and that.
Ultimately, I realized that those teachings which claim to deliver the "complete" or "ultimate" healing are ultimately bogus.
Maybe they make some good points along the way, as many belief systems do, but in the end, they are just not the ticket to feel all better.
Ultimately, we all get hurt along the way, and travel on with our scars in various ways.
Rock on, my friend.
FWIW, I know people who used to travel a longer distance to go to church because they wanted to hear you, rather than their local minister, give a sermon.
But back to the hurt, I think there's a truthfulness of acknowledging it that's good, and the realization that "I ain't Superman" isn't a bad thing.
It's pretty cool to be just another human being.
~Mel
Dennis,
"the balm of forgiveness and love heals and restores."
I think this is quite accurate.
Larry,
The atheists have not taken over this board. Does the phrase "death rattle" resonate with you? They just seem to have a need to get their personal solutions in front of the rest of us on a day to day basis. I say watch and wait. Over a period of years and months, read the testimonies which they post as to how effective their non-belief is in terms of healing or personal progress. Believe me, over five to ten years, much becomes obvious, even to a formerly hard hearted person such as myself!
To me, the main pitfall humans need to avoid is toxicity. If everyone lived by the Sermon on the Mount, the Beatitudes, and the Two Great Commandments of the Lord, we could all exist in a non-toxic state. The principles taught in these can be applied just as well in a secular philosophy as they can in a Christian setting, and will work. The only difference is in the spiritual condition of the individual. Believers, those of faith, exist in a saved condition. And, of course, our most profound hopes and prayers are that none of our fellow humans will be lost.
BB
Dennis, Junior's letter makes it sound like HE'S forgiving YOU.
.....I feel sick....
BB, that is a very ignorant comment, as is typical. As again, I point to proof - which is my personal journey, as documented on ISA and now HMA. I have done a great deal of healing and personal growth, and I DID IT WITHOUT GOD. I was an atheist, is an atheist, and though I cannot see the future, I do not see myself ever becoming a Christian. Ever ever.
In fact, BB, I find your comment deeply offensive. Something which you, in your wonderful Christianness, care not one whit about. I am offended because I have offered years of evidence of my personal growth without God, and you completely ignored it in favor of spouting nonsense that is easily debunked, and I wonder if you will take the same road some others have and refuse to confront that head on.
YOU ARE WRONG.
Larry,
You state your assumptions as if they are facts.
You should have said "I assume 'God can see further down the road than any of us'." You can't know this. There's no evidence of this. Yet you assert it. Oh yes, faith, of course. Evidence isn't needed.
Well, I base my worldview on evidence. The evidence I see shows that the history of WCG was an unmitigated disaster for everyone not named Herbert Armstrong or Joe Tkach. And maybe a few other beneficiaries.
Your baseless assertions about "God makes everything turn out for the best in the long term" come across, to a non believer, as ridiculous.
I've got an open mind. I've changed from believer to non-believer; I could change back again. All you have to do is offer me convincing evidence. Got any?
The Skeptic
Sorry Russell, been there, done that. I also cited a tremendous amount of personal growth in my own agnostic postings. There is quite a body of them out there in cyberspace. But, that growth was miniscule as compared to the healing that's happened in my life over the past 24 months, to say nothing of increased understanding.
Humans, and human thinking can only take one so far. It's only when one invites one's maker to walk with one that one's personal situation goes into exponential growth. God made us in such a way that we can make physical, human progress. I don't deny that, and it's a good thing. But, truly, there is more to the picture. I never thought, as an agnostic, that I'd end up taking up the challenge and asking a Being whom I had considered for decades to be imaginary to come into my life. For a non-believer's heart to soften up to the point of willingness to do that is beyond rare. But, now, I am just so thankful that words are totally inadequate. We serve an awesome God, one who allows U-turns, seeks out his lost sheep, and welcomes prodigals! Sometimes, I just want to run from the building and scream praises to Him!
BB
"Humans, and human thinking can only take one so far."
Yep. BB has now officially come 100% full-circle.
Who wants to give the first eulogy?
"Well, I base my worldview on evidence. The evidence I see shows that the history of WCG was an unmitigated disaster for everyone not named Herbert Armstrong or Joe Tkach. And maybe a few other beneficiaries."
Well, Skeptic, you would be wrong.
Purple Hymnal said...
"Humans, and human thinking can only take one so far."
Yep. BB has now officially come 100% full-circle.
Who wants to give the first eulogy?
------------------------------
I already did that. I've missed him ever since he stormed out of the PT forum. He hasn't changed anything except the side of the room he's talking from.
Larry, you're obviously the world's expert on wrong.
Biker Bob,
I am truly glad that you have found happiness, to the point that you wish to "run from a building screaming praises to Him". But, for those of us who do not believe in your imaginary friend, can I ask that you please spare us your condescending remarks?
We unbelievers are not necessarily less happy than you, nor do we have hard hearts that need to soften, nor have we necessarily "grown" less than you. I can tell you, in my case and those of many people I know, that growth was stifled as long as we were in the grips of religious beliefs. Once free from the bondage of religion, we have truly begun to grow and fulfill our human potential.
The Skeptic
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