Here's a query from David V. Barrett, a researcher on WCG:
It's very difficult to count how many members left Worldwide either for the offshoots, or for other Churches (I know that some who accepted the new beliefs now attend other Evangelical Churches without the Worldwide baggage), or dropped out of religion altogether, but it must be easier to know how many ministers left Worldwide -- after all, they were on the payroll. Do you happen to know if this number (or percentage) has ever been quoted? I don't recall seeing it.
Does anyone know if the figure has been indeed been published somewhere? I haven't got a clue, other than saying "lots," but I seem to remember folk once marking off the disappearing ministers using a booklet of photographs put together after a ministerial conference during the reign of Joe Senior. Anyone able to source that publication (it used to be online) and/or indicate the number of elders who subsequently dived overboard (or were forced to walk the plank)? Obviously a number would have simply retired, or died in the time since then, so a simple comparison with a current list of ministers would overestimate the loss.
The research in question, a PhD thesis, is now almost complete and should be an invaluable contribution to understanding the WCG/GCI backstory.
23 comments:
John Trechak published a list, and possibly several lists, of defecting ministers and other employees, in his Ambassador Report. This might at least be a starting point.
Just subtract Joe, Mike, Bernie, Dan and Greg from around 450-550 and that's about how many paid full time ministers were driven off in one form or another.
I agree with the first responder, but John's records are now quite dated.
One of the problems encountered by any researcher would be the constant changes, what with ministers starting their own micro-splinters on the slightest of whims, and playing musical chairs amongst the existing ones.
You'd think this would all cause the remaining stalwart adherents to Armstrongism to ask some really serious questions, such as how could the Holy Spirit possibly be involved in any of the ACOG current events. The most popular approach is apparently to assume that HS is active in one's own splinter, leaving all others deceived in some fashion, or missing some key but esoteric practice.
Bottom line is this. These folks are not getting the end time gospel message out in any meaningful way. The non-sabbatarian Christians appear to be doing a much more systematic and sincere job of this. Those who are maintaining statistics inform us that the gospel has reached approximately 80% of the world's population. The remainder has been carefully identified and targetted in fulfillment of the commission given to Christians by Jesus Christ. As we speak, the Bible is being translated into various languages, Bibles and Christian training materials are being smuggled into Communist countries, huge satellite networks are thundering the message of Jesus Christ around the world, and there are many selfless missionary programs supporting this basic and cooperative ministry. It is difficult to understand how these activities are being missed by most ACOG members, who apparently hope and believe that somehow their own miniscule efforts will be propelled into supplanting this global effort with the Armstrong gospel.
I'm anxious to see the finished thesis. It should be very informative from the standpoint of illustrating all that can go wrong in a man-made religious movement.
BB
Gavin said..
>>The research in question, a PhD thesis, is now almost complete and should be an invaluable contribution to understanding the WCG/GCI backstory.<<
David contacted me in 2000 to ask for information on WCG and its splinters. Nine years later he is still conducting research for his Phd, which I fear will add nothing to our understanding of why WCG broke up, and the discredited ministers have formed various heresies.
I doubt that David has any idea of the Laodicean condition that permeated WCG, or the prophecy that there would be a falling away before the return of Christ. Without this knowledge, David thesis is bound to be underpinned by psychological theories that seek to explain organisations' culture, their dysfunction and ultimate collapse.
Sadly, David does not understand that there is a spirit that works in the children of disobedience, and it goads them to be hostile to the things of God. Still, he may end up with a useless piece of paper that says he understands things of which he is truly ignorant.
You're otta here... said...
Just subtract Joe, Mike, Bernie, Dan and Greg from around 450-550 and that's about how many paid full time ministers were driven off in one form or another.
A pretty accurate answer.
USA ministers were exempt by law from Social Security, so it was never withheld, as they were an aging ministry they were easily manipulated by empty promises of a future retirement. Most found themselves on the street with nothing.
The Canadian ministry, who by law were required to pay into the Canadian Social security system, were the only ones who couldn't have their retirement revoked by any executive whim of Pasadena.
I don't think even the Catholic church treats its mavericks as badly as the WCG did.
But what was even stranger was the severance UCG ministers got - that other ministers who were loyal to the changes did not get.
The only answer that makes any sense at all was that somebody wanted to deplete the church of any people who would have claim to its assets. And even that idea is pure speculation. One has to be careful about attributing to conspiracy what sheer pigheaded stupidity could just as easily explain.
I doubt that David has any idea of the Laodicean condition that permeated WCG, or the prophecy that there would be a falling away before the return of Christ. Without this knowledge, David thesis is bound to be underpinned by psychological theories that seek to explain organisations' culture, their dysfunction and ultimate collapse.
Explaing this one paragraph could fill an entire book....sigh...
Hark, the herald Tom-tom beats deep in the jungle:
"Sadly, David does not understand that there is a spirit that works in the children of disobedience, and it goads them to be hostile to the things of God. Still, he may end up with a useless piece of paper that says he understands things of which he is truly ignorant."
Sadly Tom you are the one who is truly ignorant. You are ignorant of your condescending attitude of all those who do not share you own particular version of the "truth". And you are also ignorant of your own giant assumptions that WCG once had the "truth", and the HS working within it. At the same time, you yourself are now embracing trinitarianism which was always anathema to the Armstrong WCG which seems to contradict what you implied above. I thought for while, recently, that you had begun to mellow but now I understand you are still the same old curmudgeon, beating your tom-tom aimlessly, deep in the jungle, where your only audience is yourself. Please wake up and join the rest of humanity before you die a lonely and wasted life.
How's this for a number.
Did not,at one time,Worldwide have a total complement of around 1000
"clergy",both paid and voluntary.
Cheers,
Jorgheinz
Worldwide issued at least two editions of a Worldwide Directory(pun intended) of all its ministry both paid and unpaid.
There were at least two editions,one with sepia mugshots,and the other with green,as one remembers.Timeframe,1975-1982,say.
Consulting the herbophiles/herbofiles at Edmund might yield some numbers on both ministry and members,for a suitable
"donation",naturally, for such valuable and rare information.
I have an idea membership peaked at around 100,000 but stand to be corrected on that. Might it be worth a Google on someone's part.
Cheers,
Jorgheinz
"These folks are not getting the end time gospel message out in any meaningful way. The non-sabbatarian Christians appear to be doing a much more systematic and sincere job of this. "
sorry dude, but they do not preach the gospel.
they may think that they do, but they don't.
How cute, Anonymous 4:29. You've allowed HWA to redefine what the gospel of Jesus Christ actually is.
I always thought it was quite arrogant for HWA to proclaim that God was apparently so inept that He did not allow the true gospel to be preached for 1900 years! We don't even see any exemplary periods of lapse that long throughout the spotted history of Israel in the OT!
The Gospel is not that the US and BC are Israel, and that they are soon going to suffer frightening punishments for having forgotten sabbaths which they never knew. And it is most certainly not that Jesus Christ is about to return to establish Armstrongism as the one world government for God's Kingdom.
Try this: Shift your mind into neutral, to a state in which you truly do not care which direction God will take you into. This entails throwing away or negating any denominational blinders which you may currently have. Then ask for God to walk with you, and for the Holy Spirit to guide you. Read your Bible without the Armstrong filters and modifiers. If you do this honestly and sincerely, you are in for one huge revelation, I guarantee it!
BB
Bamboo Bends said:
"USA ministers were exempt by law from Social Security, so it was never withheld, as they were an aging ministry they were easily manipulated by empty promises of a future retirement. Most found themselves on the street with nothing."
This last sentence...what do you mean by "most"? To me that would at least be more than half... wouldn't it. I know quite a few and don't know of a single one who found themselves on the street with nothing. As a matter of fact all the ones I know are doing just fine. One the I am related to now has his doctorate and teaches at a well known University. He was a paid WCG minister for almost 25 years.Yeah, I suppose some who sat around and did nothing but complain about their situation perhaps haven't had it so good...I just don't know any of them...so is it really MOST of them? I doubt it!! There is also what I have seen among some...reluctance to get a real job where they actually had to WORK...instead of sitting at home playing on their computers or golfing, or whatever!!
I have a lot of issues with the way things were in WCG...but I also have issues when things are portrayed inaccurately. Since "MOST" was stated...could you please back that up by some percentages and what actually happened to these "MOST"?
>>As we speak, the Bible is being translated into various languages, Bibles and Christian training materials
Your statements really do take us into the realm of fantasy. There is not this ONE magical bible out there -- the manuscripts have many variables, at least 400,000 of them.
The Watchtower claims to have corrected 20,000 errors in their edition of the New World translation alone.
Armstrong improved on some of the texts himself.
Suppose they are printing a copy of the Bible that contains errors, how is that helping the poor impoverished peasants void of any scholarly thinking?
>>> huge satellite networks are thundering the message of Jesus Christ
It is NOT the message of Jesus they are proclaiming, but Paul's gospel of grace. Jesus NEVER preached grace! Jesus never mentioned salvation by "grace"! Show me one passage of scripture from Jesus mentioning the word: grace! It doesn't exist, a crucial element of Christianity is missing from the teachings of Jesus!
Why would Jesus not mention grace and then have to raise up a man, called Paul, to preach it? Sounds a bit fishy to me!
Robert,
What do you accept as scripture? Would you like to rip out the writings of Paul and Luke to better suit your own Christology?
I believe that we're getting more and more accurate translations of the Bible now in our modern times, because more and earlier manuscripts are available, there is better knowledge of ancient languages, and textual criticism has evolved to the point of being a science unto itself. There is also the element of the Holy Spirit, and His/Its inspiration and preservation of God's word. (I'm sure the Christophobes will have a heyday with that one!).
BB
>>Would you like to rip out the writings of Paul and Luke
A case could be made that Paul's writings are NOT part of scripture, but, that he was the person identified as Simon Magus (see The Letter of Peter to James and The Homilies of Clement). But, equally, a case could also be made that we have not understood Paul from a hebraic perspective.
>>>we're getting more and more accurate translations of the Bible now in our modern times
I do not believe this to be the case at all. There are glaring errors in the New Testament (aside from the complexities of Paul's writings). The historical Pilate is different from the one presented in the Bible (with Pilate having to be recalled for his brutality towards the Samaritans), different and conflicting accounts of the resurrection, as well as some passages of scripture have been deliberately altered (Ex: Matthew 28:19). It is questionable that Jesus came to start a new religion at all or even authorised a new canon that would replace the old. Matthew 5:17-19 clearly places Jesus at the heart of Judaism and Torah observance; so essentially He came to modify an existing religion that had lost its way.
We must not forget that if Jesus is the Son of God, His teachings OVERRULE Paul and we can only accept what Paul says in light of Jesus' teachings. The church has replaced Jesus with Paul and so have the Armstrong churches.
"I always thought it was quite arrogant for HWA to proclaim that God was apparently so inept that He did not allow the true gospel to be preached for 1900 years!"
wrong again dude. everything that came out of HWA's mouth was not right. the church has existed somewhere in the world continously since it's founding, and has kept the sabbath and holy days (among the other doctrines) the whole time.
"Try this: Shift your mind into neutral, to a state in which you truly do not care which direction God will take you into."
ummm, that is what should happen with each person when they request baptism. the direction God will take you is toward obedience to His law and avoidance of sin. therefore, God will never lead anyone toward a prostant type religion. it goes against His instructions.
ummm, "grace" is an attribute of God, not the condition of the sinner.
protestants have perverted that fact and now they belive they live in a condition of grace and can do pretty much anything they please since they are "saved".
Robert,
I'm thoroughly familiar with the Simon Magus as cypher for Paul theory and its origins. I suppose that's a bit better than concocting a theory that Simon Magus started the RCC, but not by much. The understanding of much of what happened in the early centuries is complicated by pseudoepigraphical letters and dissertations. I've been pointing out for years that some of HWA's most cherished teachings and theories seem to derive from these non-canonical works.
I believe that Peter's vision, and the actions following it, set us up for Paul and his teachings. Jewish Christians were flabbergasted to see the Holy Spirit poured out on Gentiles who ate unclean meats and did not keep other elements of Mosaic law, such as the Jewish sabbath and holy days.
The epistle to the Galatians was Paul's effort at putting out a fire. Jewish Christians from Jerusalem had been sent to Galatia apparently to inform the Gentile Christians that in order to become Christians, they first had to convert to Judaism, including becoming circumcised. That is the only understanding you can arrive at which makes any sense. What Paul realized was that Christianity was a guided and guiding transformation which did not require Jewish legalism in order to function or be valid. It was of the heart. God's love was what had led to the creation of the law as a temporary school teacher, instituted because an uneducated slave people were incapable of otherwise grasping such concepts. The Jerusalem council obviously understood what God was working out through the pouring out of the Holy Spirit on Gentile believers, based on the edict as to what if anything from the Torah Gentile Christians were required to retain. Idolatry and sexual immorality were the big no no's. I realize that many people like to read extra into this edict, or to add words to it, but
basically, it says what it says!
Paul faced a similar situation when Jewish Diasporan Christians were allowed to return to Rome following Claudinian exile of all Jews from that city. So, he covers, and even expands upon these same ethics and protocol to be used by Gentile Christians in interacting with and fellowshipping with their returning Jewish Christian brethren, who were still maintaining most of their ancestral practices. So, we have two excellent examples of how these issues were being resolved between Jewish and Gentile Christians.
There are so many valid vantage points from which to ponder this topic that any kind of legalism becomes impossible to achieve or to enforce. And, there are stages of rejection, based on the relative importance which an individual believer attaches to any given era (dispensation?). If you assume that Sinai, the first temple era, or the second temple era were the golden era which need to inform you as to the truth and validity of subsequent teachings, you're going to end up even rejecting many of the teachings not only of Paul, but of Jesus himself.
Remember, the early Jewish Christians continued attending temple until they were persecuted by people such as Saul of Tarsus, and ended up assembling in secret in one anothers' homes. They became pariahs in their own community, until even their ability to earn their own livings was compromised. Their Gentile brethren helped them via collections, but even so they faded from existence, and Christianity's main center of activity recentered amongst the Gentiles. There had always been a sizeable Jewish diaspora amongst these Gentiles, and by 70 AD there was only a disapora. To my knowledge, Gentile Christians were not persecuting Jews, Jewish Christians, or Gentiles. But, they were certainly persecuted, and intimidated by Jew and Gentile alike, yet continued to grow as a group throughout the common era.
BB
With all the debate to and fro, for and against, Armstrongism versus Christianity, which gospel is the true gospel: Christ's, Paul's, HWA's, perhaps we can take some wisdom from a poem by Walt Whitman titled "Animals" reproduced below:
"I think I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid and self-contain'd,
I stand and look at them long and long.
They do not sweat and whine about their condition,
They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins,
They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God,
Not one is dissatisfied, not one is demented with the mania of owning things,
Not one kneels to another, nor to his kind that lived thousands of years ago,
Not one is respectable or unhappy over the whole earth."
Robert said...
>>There is not this ONE magical bible out there -- the manuscripts have many variables, at least 400,000 of them.<<
Since you started attending Jewish synagogues, it appears that you have become a pharisee, a doctor of the law and an authority on biblical manuscripts. Wow!
>>Jesus NEVER preached grace! Jesus never mentioned salvation by "grace"! Show me one passage of scripture from Jesus mentioning the word: grace!<<
Which one of the 400,000 variables would you believe?
ummm, "grace" is an attribute of God, not the condition of the sinner.
protestants have perverted that fact and now they belive they live in a condition of grace and can do pretty much anything they please since they are "saved".
Actually...i'm tired of hearing that criticism by the COG's/ex-WCG's...i grew up in a baptist church and never once heard a minister say you "could do whatever you want." I think the misunderstanding comes from the fact that God is a bigger God than we are sinners. The message was always about forgiveness as a result of repentence - never about "doing whatever you want"
Yahweh's "Jubilee" would seem to teach the concept of grace, as would Jesus' parable of the unforgiving debtor.
It would seem only logical that God teaches us what He does because that is his own practice, elements of His own character.
I have no problem with Paul further expounding on this grace, a precept which remains consistent throughout the entire Bible.
BB
"i grew up in a baptist church and never once heard a minister say you "could do whatever you want.""
they may not say it in so many words, but ask one about obedience to God's law and watch them bristle at the idea.....you don't have to obey the law, you are under grace!
they actually teach against obedience to God. go figure.
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