Invest nine short minutes. I hope "Sientspirit" continues the series, and some of those in denial about the church's past watch this one.
The intro on YouTube reads: "I go into detail about the Worldwide Church of God (WCG) and end up taking almost 10 minutes to talk about it! I hope I kept it interesting enough; I found it difficult to explain WCG to outsiders, especially in a succinct fashion. Hopefully, you have a little understanding of where I'm coming from once you've watched this video. If you have any questions about the church, feel free to ask! I'll be talking more in detail about certain things that I either only touched on briefly or left out entirely."
30 comments:
Apart from the young lady's comment about the ambivalence over make up, nothing else was said that one could described as alarming. I could think of many things that were much more serious!
She appeared a little confused who will punish people for disobeying the teachings of the bible, but if she was not baptised this is understandable.
But I await her comments on the two members of her family that have died. She seems to be implying that they were forbidden to seek medical help, and if this was done they may still be alive. This conclusion will be very difficult, if not impossible, to prove. But I won't prejudge her remarks.
People's experiences in WGC varied, depending what years they were in WCG andwhat ministers they were subject to. This person's description is a very accurate and factual reflection of my experience in WCG during the late 70's, 80's and early 90's.
The Skeptic
As someone who was also brainwashed by the WCG cult (from the age of 3 to 38....with my own horror stories), I have to give this gal's video a D-minus for being boring and monotone, and not very attractive to look at!
Why do so many kids grow up to leave the Churches of God? I think it is because they were expected to live the Christian life. But they were WITHOUT the Holy Spirit to help them live the Christian life.
Her video of a week earlier discussed briefly her turn to athesim. I guess she's quite an intelligent woman.
I really appreciated Sientspirit's series, I think it is cleansing and gives validation to her experiences in the WCG. I distinctly remember the same thing about eating out on the Sabbath. Why was it ok for the restaurant workers to "work"? I'd be interested to know where she grew up because some of the laws she spoke of just didn't exist where I did. Like a sick game of telephone, the edict would originate in Pasadena, and by the time it got to your local church it was usually twisted and perverted to suit the pastors needs.
Tom says "Apart from the young lady's comment about the ambivalence over make up, nothing else was said that one could described as alarming. I could think of many things that were much more serious"
Well Tom it should alarm you. The story as she told it set off those alarms in my head. She told a story about a cult some twisted soap salesman started that was authoritarian in nature, mind controlling, dictatorially on how and who with you spend your money.
Tom, she spoke of the dead that should not be dead if they were of the world and not in a cult. The cult she speaks of Tom never appreciated modern medicine. They never gave thanks to God for the knowledge and vision of the medical community that saved the lives of those who sought treatment. For God helps those who seek his help. Has not God given us all the beasts of the field and all thing's to man for his survival. Why do you reject God?
You see Tom, HWA used the doctrines of devils to control his group. If they would sacrifice their lives, their children's lives on his version of what God expected, then control was an absolute.
So the lesson here Tom, is that this women knows what a cult is.
Now shut your mouth and learn from her Tom! Also click on my name for further help.
I agree with Dan Miller's comments, but probably not for the same reasons with which he'd support his statement. I don't believe that one could receive the Holy Spirit through the WCG, although I can certainly allow for the possibility of this rarely happening almost by accident, and based on the quality of an individual's completely independent personal relationship with God.
Anyone who actually had the Holy Spirit, upon seeing the "fruits" of Armstrongism, would probably feel gently prompted to leave.
BB
Tom Mahon's comments about the young lady's family members dying were interesting.
Yes, it was a SIN to seek medical help for other than accident or reconstructive surgery.
Even Loma Armstrong refused bowel surgery and died as a result.
Here in NZ ,one deacon had peritonitis symptoms, and rather than having the appendix out,he allowed an incision to be made and a gauze pad to absorb the pus and muck.That is how BAD it got in NZ.
He survived but was ill for a long time.
Peritonitis, if not caught in time, is often fatal.
We even had a HERBAL prescription for influenza.Steep grapefruit skin in hot water for a few hours,then drink the tea which contained quinine,so we were told.
One lady had a cancer operation and great were the tut-tuttings and expressions of disapproval behind her back.She was not going to be in the Kingdom.
You see, yours truly was working in the pharmaceutical industry at the time and had many questions that were put to the ministry and never answered.If you are going to impose a draconian health regime,then you have to be prepared to deal with all the manifold questions that arise from the ideologic stupidity.
We had diametrically opposed religion.On one hand we were told to trust God,yet on the other we were also told that God would not do for us that which man could do.
Boy,Worldwide were a bunch of BANKERS in more ways than one,and this is still true of the main contenders for the title today.
Geordie
Tom Mahon said, “But I await her comments on the two members of her family that have died. She seems to be implying that they were forbidden to seek medical help, and if this was done they may still be alive. This conclusion will be very difficult, if not impossible, to prove. But I won't prejudge her remarks.”
MY COMMENT – Tom thanks for not prejudging her remarks even though you already have.
I will not mention the WCG minister’s name because several years ago he apologized to both me and to God for the following direct quote which I recorded in my Sabbath Services notes from his 1969 sermon: “If you die in the hands of Doctors, you will go into the Lake of Fire”.
Tom, the preceding quote was the teaching in WCG in 1960s. Whether you want to be honest and admit or not, there were needless early deaths in the WCG because of the Church’s teachings against the use of the medical profession. I await her comments too on the two members of her family that have died. She does seem to be implying that they were forbidden to seek medical help, and if this was done they may still be alive. This conclusion is not difficult to prove at all.
By the way, did I miss something? I thought you were marked and disfellowshipped from AW. Did you repent of your ways? Of course, I won’t bring up the picture of you that was promised.
I will be in Mizpah if you need me.
Richard
I find it incredible that people in WCG took all that stuff about not seeing doctors seriously. Or tithing to the point of financial distress. If you were in Worldwide it was important to have a highly developed BS detector and to write off that which was obviously silly. Keep what worked for you and let the other stuff go. I never believed all those co-worker letters with the capitals, italacized words, and exclamation marks, and I never entertained the thought of staying away from doctors. Too many people took all that stuff way too seriously. I drank WCG Lite and it worked just fine for me.
I'm very familiar with the belief that medical treatment wasn't to be used. It cost my mother her life back in 1978 at the age of 60.
Tom Mahon, you sir are an idiot and don't give me that shit about my mother being a sinner again either. She was the most faithful person that I have ever known, inside or outside of Armstrongism.
I tried to show her that it was bullshit, however, I failed and I'll never forget nor forgive.
O dear, dear, dear! I seem to have stirred up a hornets nest by my comments, but I never said there weren't abuses of ministerial power in WCG. I can cite many examples of ministers feeling threaten by the spiritual understanding of lay members, ordaining those who flatter them and behaving like tyrants to protect their position. And as I have said many, many times, over 95% of the so-called ministers were in reality, hirelings.
However, regarding seeking medical help when sick, the church's teaching was based on James 5:14-15, the failure of doctors to heal the woman who had and issue of blood for 12 years and Jesus' example of healing many people who were sick for many years before his coming.
The healing of church members, however, depended upon the strength of their faith. God's promise to heal his people is absolute thus: "The prayer of FAITH shall save the sick." That is an absolute promise! The problem is, most people don't believe it!
So anyone who vacillated between going to the doctor and being anointed, or going to the doctor while being anointed, was not demonstrating a robust faith in God's ability to heal them.
RICHARD SAID...
>>I thought you were marked and disfellowshipped from AW. Did you repent of your ways? Of course, I won’t bring up the picture of you that was promised.<<
I don't know what I had done wrong. If I remembered correctly, someone posted rude comment about Gavin using my name. And it would appear that one or two people are now trying to draw me into a slagging match with them to get me ban from the Forum. But I will not be drawn!
I will keep my promise and upload my photo on my blog. So watch the other space.
Also, I am pleased to see that you have come to appreciate the peace that one enjoys by visiting Mizpah. I shall remain there until the Swine Flu has killed millions!
Tom said:
" But I won't prejudge her remarks."
You already did.
"We even had a HERBAL prescription for influenza.Steep grapefruit skin in hot water for a few hours,then drink the tea which contained quinine,so we were told.
"
so it was ok to listen to "Dr." Armstrong, but not to a real MD.??
kudos to the lady that had cancer surgery, at least she used her brain.
"I can cite many examples of ministers feeling threaten by the spiritual understanding of lay members,..."
i can relate. i know a number of lay members with much deeper understanding than some of the ordained ministers.
Tom says..."I don't know what I had done wrong. If I remembered correctly, someone posted rude comment about Gavin using my name."
No Tom, you have a short or selective memory. You apologized to everyone then took it back. Your a double minded man in everything you do.
BB said,
"Anyone who actually had the Holy Spirit, upon seeing the "fruits" of Armstrongism, would probably feel gently prompted to leave."
And to go where, exactly?
A few comments on Tom Mahon's asserts. Tom said "However, regarding seeking medical help when sick, the church's teaching was based on James 5:14-15, the failure of doctors to heal the woman who had and issue of blood for 12 years and Jesus' example of healing many people who were sick for many years before his coming."
Yes I agree the church teaching was based on these scriptures, which is one more demonstration that the Bible's guidance on this subject is bullshit and doesn't work.
Tom also says "The healing of church members, however, depended upon the strength of their faith. God's promise to heal his people is absolute thus: "The prayer of FAITH shall save the sick." That is an absolute promise! The problem is, most people don't believe it!" More bullshit. Some of the most faith-filled people I knew trusted god and avoided doctors and slowly died of cancer as a result. This is an absolute promise from a being that doesn't exist and therefore will not cure you. I can understand ignorant people of 2000 years ago falling for this. Not today.
Medical science has reached the point where it can successfully conquer many kinds of cancer. Faith healing has the same results it has always had - exactly equal to the placebo effect.
The Skeptic
A little too smooth. A young, photogenic speaker reading from a nicely-worded script. Too young to know of some of the things she is talking about. What is the Emes? Is she doing missionary work for the Atheist Alliance International?
-- Neo
Your age is showing, Neo. Do you think the woman in the video is a teenager?
I give the lady kudos on her videos!
As for BB's comment that:
"Anyone who actually had the Holy Spirit, upon seeing the 'fruits' of Armstrongism, would probably feel gently prompted to leave."
That got me thinking.
I wonder if there were families about to join Herbie's "church", who the Holy Spirit helped out by guiding their car to drive in front of a train, killing the whole family, in order to spare them much suffering.
Oh, another thing. Is there a list of things Herbie sold(or tried to sell) when he worked as a failing salesman?
I hadn't heard of the soap, but I had heard of pianos, insurance and magazines.
Of course, he did finally find something quite profitable and that people were extremely good "marks" for- RELIGION!
Oh, ok- one last thing:
Is it "thumbs up" or "thumbs down" on makeup at the 'Tom Mahon School of Charm'?
If Tom's picture were to be revealed, would it prompt us to yell, "HOLY TAMMY FAY BAKKERS, BATMAN!"?
Listen, you have to understand that you did what everyone else did, mainly in the 50's and 60's and 70's. It was like a police state, the underground would rat on you if you went out and did anything against the "teachings." THIS WAS SO! In my case it was a gradual weaning process, but when I had my own kids, I went ahead and had them innoculated, but didn't dare tell anyone. I thought the lives of my kids were worth more than the wrath of the congregation. And guess what, I wasn't struck down by and lightning. Too many people were just too afraid, and just didn't know how to make their own decisions, and look where it got them. If you didn't live through it personally, you just can't comprehend it.
I think a lot of WCG experiences were regional and local. Concerning healing: my daughter got spinal meningitis about 1973, we took her to the hospital and she was cured. Interesting no one in the church offered help. But not much was said either. The pastor, Rollin Tucker was supportive. Later Mr. Tucker's daughter also got spinal meningitis, he also took his daughter to the medical field and she was cured. Again not much was said.
Not to many years ago I was told by Rod McNair that he also got spinal meningitis in the early 70's. Rod told me that HWA called up Carl McNair and commanded Carl to take his son to the hospital and doctors immediately! So my impression is that in many cases local ministers developed this view of the medical community and in some cases it was the membership. I know a lot of older people do not like doctors.
Also, this attitude that was often in the COG's seems to no longer be prevalent. These days members of most all the organizations (United, LCG, and some smaller groups) readily go to doctors. There are those members (not just older people either) who are still skeptical of the medical field.
Bottom line: use the brain God gave you and make your own decisions. No it is not always popular but if you live your life based on what others think of you then you really do need help.
McNair's kids don't count as part of your anecdote, because the ministry WAS held to a double (more lax) standard than the rest of us.
"Concerning healing: my daughter got spinal meningitis about 1973, we took her to the hospital and she was cured."
And what was the reaction of the more "truly converted" amongst the congregation, when you brought your daughter back to church?
I spent the early years of my life in and out of hospital. The other children were forbidden to associate with me, because I was believed to be demon-possessed. (Just ask the deaconess who tried to beat it out of me once. Fortunately, only once.)
Having a spiritually dead parent/spouse didn't help the family's image of being weak in faith and unconverted, either.
The resentment, hatred, and open hostility that poured off those "truly converted" adults towards me (a defenseless child) every week, left me with a LOT of distrust towards people in general; the world, the church, everyone.
Even the converted parent started to resent me, after patiently gritting their teeth and trying to love me, for years and years.
Is it any wonder I spent so much time inside my own head? Or that I still do?
I find her comments dead accurate to my experience in Armstrongism since 1975 and continuing to this day since the rest of my immediate family is still trapped in it.
Apologists can bluster all they want about how "skeptical" they are about this and other accounts and how it wasn't their experience but to a large portion of the membership, this WAS the experience.
She only touched the surface on the hypocrisies of the church. Her questions bring to mind all the "difficult" questions I would ask in YOU lesson reviews with the minister's wife for which not a single minister nor my parents could explain in any kind of coherent manner. I was given the ultimate cop out every time and told to "pray for understanding."
You wonder why so many of the children raised in the WCG left? Because children have wonderfully developed bullsh*t meters. Their mental and emotional strength dictate how well they can escape nonsensical indoctrination but kids always know when something doesn't add up.
Larry,
The body of Christ is a collection of believers, all of whom have a personal relationship with God. Once you've entered into this type of relationship, God guides where you will go.
One thing that conversion is not: It is NOT a case of the Holy Spirit causing your mind to come into sync with all of the doctrines (some of which are embarrassingly easy to disprove) of an entity which calls itself "God's True Church".
And for Mel, God would not cause an evil such as a whole family which is seeking Him to be killed in an auto accident. And, I should know. Last time I counted, there had been over 20 separate incidents in which probability was that I would have been killed. And, the vast majority of these occurred when I was an agnostic. Have a bowl of ice cream. Sounds like it might brighten up your day!
BB
God's thoughts are not your thoughts, BB. Don't presume to speak for him.
Purple Hymnal, I have neither words nor maturity to adequately express remorse over the cruelty you were forced to endure as a child. I wonder how many children learned to loathe God by virtue of parents acting abusively -- on execrable advice "in God's name"? May Hashem grant you years of joy to replace, lavishly, the grievous experiences over which you had no control.
A couple of beautiful books come to mind, written from a vastly different body of tradition. One has to do with bringing up children in an atmosphere of lovingkindness. The second has to do with Mussar, a spiritual method for fleshing out the bare bones of commandment-keeping.
Not to offend, but the books were both written by Jewish authors. There is no intent to proselytize here; quite to the contrary. But the information and approach in both books is no less than wonderful. You might find healing in them as well as kind encouragement.
1. To Kindle a Soul, by Lawrence Kelemen, and
2. Climbing Jacob's Ladder, by Alan Morinis
Zay gezunt!
Sorry Russell, God gets a bad rub from time to time in these places, and I must continue to testify as to His goodness!
The greatest testimony of God's love, at this point in my life, is the gentle way in which he protected and guided me while I was a non-believer! I look back on this now, and it is absolutely so phenomenal. Believe me, I could have gone through many even more horrible circumstances than I actually did, as could my son.
BB
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